The Smiley Smile Message Board

Hello, a little while ago I ran a poll of the same question on the other forum, and was surprised to see TWGMTR won over TLOS, since I always think of TLOS as Brian's most ambitious work in some thirty years, and have assumed many people preferred it to TWGMTR, which is less ambitious in every way.

Those who voted for TWGMTR mentioned, as the reason for their votes, the original boys' great chorus.

Now, I'd like to ask you, which do you think is better as an album? Look forward to knowing how you think. 

TWGMTR. Besides the joyous first two numbers, the last 4 tracks are Brian's best work since the 60's. Plus...the Beach Boys

TWGMTR, because it's the Beach Boys. TLOS is good too.

I think both are great but judging by what I tend to play more than the other, TWGMTR wins.

I expect that ultimately this board will have more people in favorite of That Lucky Old Sun, but for me the choice is easily That's Why God Made The Radio. I think it's easily Brian's best set of songs since his debut solo album. And it doesn't hurt to have the different sound colorings that the voices of Mike, Al and Bruce give the material.

That Lucky Old Sun.

TLOS hands down. Don't even own the other one anymore.

This.

Neither is better, both just kinda mediocre.....

TLOS is of a higher standard overall IMO and doesn't have obvious weak points (maybe Mexican Girl?) such as Spring Vacation, Beaches in Mind, TPLOBS, Daybreak.

"From there to back again" is probably better than anything on TLOS though. Damn shame about the unnecessary vocal processing on Al's voice.

TLOS is more consistent in terms of songwriting, production and vocal performances.

But the closing suite on TWGMTR is some of Brian's finest work, alone or solo, since the early 1970s. Simply breathtaking.

That Lucky Old Sun. I can't stand to listen to the other one,

TWGMTR.

Those suite numbers.  That, and has already been mentioned, the additional BB voices.


But damn, that suite...  :hat



Incidentally, what do you folks think: Any chance in hell we ever see the entirety of the suite completed and released?  Even if -- barring the use of any potential vocal passes left over from the TWGMTR sessions -- Mike and Bruce may never appear on the remainder of the set?  Maybe Brian, Al, Blondie and/or David finish up the tracks and put them out as part of a BW solo record?  Wait -- was it ever confirmed that NPP had some elements of the Life Suite?

Bah!  I'm losing it.  Anyway, as lovely as TLOS is, I'm going with TWGMTR.  :afro

That Lucky Old Sun

As released, Lucky Old Sun. But if I play my version of the TWGMTR tracklist, I prefer that.  :lol

TWGMTR. I would like to hear TLOS with Beach Boy voices. That would make it much closer.

What's your version?

TWGMTR.

- that Beach Boys vocal blend is unmatched.
- the sound/production is 1000x more superior to TLOS.
- FAR more hooks in TWGMTR. It is very much Brian going back to making little pocket symphonies - each song has one or multiple finely polished gems that stand out immensely.
- the life suite is easily one of Brian’s best post-Pet Sounds moments
- Brian’s wail at the very end of the title song is one of the coolest hooks since ‘Do It Again’

TLOS is a great album, I have lost some interest in it over the years, but nonetheless it is a great record to listen to. TWGMTR is something I continually listen to, if I’m happy, sad, indifferent, it’s an album that I can listen to no matter how I’m feeling.

Think About The Days
That's Why God Made The Radio
Isn't It Time
Spring Vacation
Soul Searchin'
Daybreak Over The Ocean

Waves of Love
Shelter
Strange a World
My Love Lives On
From There To Back Again
Pacific Coast Highway
Summers Gone (Coda)

Sometimes I stick Waves of Love as the end of side A and begin side B with Blondie and "Sail Away".
:)

Neither.  And when you have to abbreviate the title... That's means it's a pretty bad title.

They both have good songs and bad songs. Day Break over The Ocean is Mike Kokomoing it up, ick. Beaches In Mind no thanks, give me The Private Life of Bill and Sue, That's Why Good Made The Radio, Think About The Days, Isn't It Time etc. As for Lucky Old Sun: Good Kind Of Love, Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl, Midnight's Another Day, Going Home and Southern California.

Luck Old Sun is a more consistent product...but 'radio' has a few songs on it that just blow the whole 'sun' record out of the water. That being said, 'radio' also has some absolute garbage. It's all over the place.

Tough one... Add TWGMTR:s title track and life suite to TLOS, and take out Mexican Girl, California Role, Can't Wait Too Long (pointless here) and all those narratives and have Al and Mike sing some of the songs (Good Kind of Love would be great for Al, Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl for Mike) and voila, you'd have a great album. Of course, I'm happy to have both as they are.

For a long time, I thought BWPS meant "Brian Wilson's Pet Sounds".

TWJUTA

I love both albums, but my vote was for TWGMTR because it was a new release the year I really really got into The Beach Boys, which was also a great year for me personally. 

Plus, even without Carl, the Beach Boys vocals have a certain magic that the Wondermints simple can't replicate. 

TLOS, dig the speech tracks too. "Bill & Sue", "Shelter", "Pacific Coast Highway", "Summer's Gone", "Spring Vacation" ruin Radio.

Take away Jeff and the vocal processing, and the vocals on TWGMTR would make Love You sound like the Trinity College Choir. :p

I've read a lot of criticisms of TWGMTR, but this is the first time I've ever seen Pacific Coast Highway mentioned. 

Having seen them live in 2012, I can't say that I agree. 

Nah, I think the songs heaviest on Jeff and heaviest on the vocal processing on TWGMTR sound the worst. There are moments where it's more heavy on actual BBs and lighter on the processing. The best example is the vocal intro to "Pacific Coast Highway", which is one of the moments on the album where I can almost swear Carl's in the stack. It isn't "wall of Fosketts" or those weird Brian album vocal stacks with Scott Bennett mixed in a bunch, etc. Mike's bass vocal on that bit in addition to Al's mid-range make moments like that sound like *THE* Beach Boys.

But yeah, I do wish I could take the TWGMTR album now and pull out two Fosketts from each stack and replace it with one Matt and one Al. I think that alone would alleviate the "wall of Fosketts" sound that is probably most prevalent on the title track.

Another big problem I have with TWGMTR is not just the autotune/processing, but the penchant for mushing together multiple lead vocals in unison to where you can't really make out who it is. The lead lines on the title track are a good example. What is that? Brian tripled? Brian and Al doubled? Brian and Al and Foskett? The track has almost no moment where one single lead vocal voice/track is there with no adornment. One of the reasons probably why live versions of that track were kind of a trainwreck on many C50 tour stops, a weird anomaly in a uniformly AMAZING live performance/tour.

Tastes differ. Btw, forgot "Think About The Days" & Mike in the bridge is way better in IIT single than Jeff.

Do you mean you like Think About the Days, or that you didn't?

It's in addition to "Shelter" etc. listed before.

So, you think Thikk About the Days ruins Radio?

Vocals on TWGMTR are just so odd.

I've said before that I really doubt the rest of the guys are on it at all -- aside from their featured vocal spots. No Pier Pressure, which features Al and Matt and Blondie on backing vocals, has a more authentic sound. I don't hear anyone but Brian and Jeff the vast majority of the time.

Guys. Do you think 'Wall of Fosketts' should be my new name?

Not just on this board, but actually in real life?

I agree completely. As much as TWGMTR is praised for bringing "that sound" back, it's almost never actually there. NPP has its flaws, but it uses more singers more often by a mile.

God, yes.

Luther, I'm almost tempted to change it, if you change your name back to Captain.

Yes. Dislike the melancholic type songs. If Radio began & ended positively, it'd be much better. Just because they're old doesn't mean they must sing introspective songs imo.

To each their own

How about the Wally George of Fosketts?

Or is that the pot calling the Foskettle black?

Impossible, in that my name has never been the Captain. Damn. So close.

Below is my off-the-top-of-my-head vocal breakdown I posted last year. I think most of the four main guys are on most of the tracks *somewhere.* But I'm certainly not under any illusion that all four of the guys strolled into the studio and busted out heavy work on every song. Obviously, Brian had most of the songs already written, and a bunch of the backing tracks appear to have been recorded before they even knew for sure they were going to be able to make a BB record (in particular the Nashville backing tracks with Chad Cromwell on drums). But I think at least one of Al, Mike, and Bruce are on every song on the album at least *somewhere* at some point.

For what it's worth, here is my "written without re-consulting the album on the spot" breakdown from last year:

The vocals on TWGMTR (and, to some degree, "No Pier Pressure") are performed and mixed in a weird way where the lead vocals (sometimes multiple) and backing vocals are sometimes smushed together to where you can't really pinpoint one single voice singing one, single-tracked lead. I don't know how much of this was due to liking the sound, versus trying to cover stuff up, or what.

In terms of what I hear is most audible (as opposed to necessarily who technically is singing on the sessions), here's what I hear on the album:

1. Think About the Days - Al is obviously first most prominent with the "doo-doos" and whatnot. I hear Mike's nasal voice (not a dig, just trying to be descriptive), and I also hear Bruce prominently. Jeff is of course all over it. Ironically, Brian is least audible to my ears.

2. That's Why God Made the Radio - Brian and Al's lead lines are obvious, of course, though this is a classic example of that "smushing together" thing I was talking about. Foskett is all over this, too much so. Bruce is clear on the backing vocals. Mike sounds the least audible on this one (I think his voice is discernible near the end repeating the "that's why god made, that's why god made" before it kicks back in). It kind of just sounds like a wall of Fosketts with Brian, Al, and Bruce peeking through at times.

3. Isn't It Time - All four are pretty audible on this one.

4. Spring Vacation - Mike and Brian are obvious of course, and Brian is strong on backing vocals on this one. Bruce is high in the mix during the "seems like it could go on forever, etc.". Al is the one who is least audible on this one, if he's on it. The basic "aaahhhh" backing vocals during the verses are the most likely place he can be found, and those vocals for once aren't super-Foskettized, and one of the moments where you can almost imagine Carl being in the blend.

5. Private Life of Bill and Sue - A lot of Foskett and Brian on this one. As c-man mentioned, the group come in more prominently nearer the end.

6. Shelter - Besides Brian and Foskett, Al is prominent in the backing vocals (heard even more clearly during an isolate vocal bit on the "Doin' it Again" documentary). Bruce sounds like he's discernible as well. Mike comes in (doubled with falsetto by either Foskett, or, I believe according to Joe Thomas, actually Brian himself) on the "do you ever still think of me?" lines.

7. Daybreak over the Ocean - Mike solo track, sounds like the group tacked on the backing vocals during a few "bring back" interludes, with Al most prominent. In fact, it kind of just sounds like Al added to Mike's solo track, though I would assume Bruce and Brian are on it too (dunno if Foskett replaced Adrian Baker during those bits).

8. Beaches in Mind - Ironically, considering this wasn't one of the stockpiled older recordings, it's quite heavy on Fosketts. Mike is of course prominent. Brian, Al, and Bruce could easily all be there, though smoothed out in a wall of voices included a lot of Foskett.

9. Strange World - Al heavy on backing vocals, as is Brian. Bruce and Mike less discernible, though there's some bass stuff there.

10. From There to Back Again - The vocals are not quite "wall of Foskett" enough with a bit more nasal quality that I can think I can discern all four BBs including Mike on backing vocals. Mike is of course singing the bit near the end.

11. Pacific Coast Highway - The vocal intro here is one of the few moments where it's "Aaaah.... That's the Beach Boys!" instead of sounding like a bunch of Fosketts. It's the one moment where I could almost swear for a microsecond Carl's in there; it's so later-era "Beach Boys" sounding that your brain almost puts Carl in there. This is due in large part to not only the mid-range stuff from Al (instead of seventeen Fosketts), but heavy, prominent bass vocals from Mike.

12. Summer's Gone - A bit more Fosketty, but Mike is clearly in there in the mix in addition to Brian. Al and Bruce less discernible.

But yeah, I can buy the four are singing somewhere on all of these songs. It's too bad they couldn't have had Matt Jardine in, as that would have cut the Foskett voice concentration a bit. Foskett's voice cuts through too much, especially in the mid-range stuff. Matt could have helped round that sound out.

Funny you mention the "smushing" technique. I have to say, I love it. I've had a great time listening to NPP in particular, enjoying as one part is suddenly joined by another, then the original is gone, replaced by something or someone else, etc. it might be a cover-up for Brian's reduced capabilities, but it's an ingenious one.

It's weird, though, because the Gershwin and Disney albums show BW had no problem putting together persuasive leads. TWGMTR came out just a year after the Disney record, and NPP was mostly recorded in 2013 and early 2014. There's no real reason to record in that manner, except that Joe or Brian like the effect.

For that matter, I was listening to Imagination this weekend and was struck by how clear (and sometimes single tracked) Brian sounds on that record. Goodness knows, that album sounds sonically awful (it's all high frequencies and the teensiest bit of midrange), but it's so different in approach from TWGMTR and NPP ...

Also, for as much as people talk about the Joe Thomas "approach" in BW/BB records, has anyone noticed that the four albums he's co-produced with Brian all sound different?

Stars and Stripes -- Practically live in the studio, lots of Nashville studio cats, BBs essentially doing their live vocals on record. Country approach.

Imagination -- Wall of Brians, lots of vocal massaging (but less than you remember), all "bright" sounds -- keyboards, guitars, etc. are popping out of the speakers. AC approach, but not on every song.

TWGMTR -- Vocal smushing begins. Tracks sound like a combination of Imagination-era instrumentation and Brian's recent solo records (TLOS and Gershwin most notably). AC mixed with mainstream pop and classic BB re-creations.

NPP -- Clearer lead vocal separation, but still some smushing, better blend on backing vocals. Tracks are denser than on any previous record, with strings and horns on nearly every song.

I think the overall production *sound* on the Thomas-helmed (or co-helmed) projects has changed to some degree over time, while it has mainly been certain key *arrangement* ticks that have carried over from project to project (e.g. claves, oboes, nylon string guitar, generally "tinkly" sounding instrumentation and percussion). But even then, the lines become blurred because some (but not all) of the "Joe Thomas sound" utilizes recurring Brian motifs and styles as well, and then there is also the idea that Brian probably took on a preference himself for a "Joe Thomas" bit of style here and there.

When I finally was able to hear TWGMTR after all that time wondering how "Imagination-ish" it was going to sound, I was surprised that some of the Thomas tropes were gone or minimized (though this was also replaced with much more modern and aggressive pitch correction, as heard on things like "Spring Vacation" especially).

But I don't think Thomas changing his "sound" in some respects is very surprising considering there's a roughly 14-year gap between "Imagination" and "TWGMTR." I think even a guy with as many hallmarks/ticks on the arrangement and production side as Thomas is apt to change to *some degree* over the course of more than a decade.

I also think Thomas took on a somewhat different role during his latter-day (2010-ish to 2014/15-ish) tenure with Brian, and this involved presumably being aware of that "mixed" reception to his older work with Brian, in addition to a less "public" persona (e.g. Thomas is visually and verbally *all over* the "Imagination" documentaries and whatnot, yet we were barely even able to find a *picture* of Thomas working with the BBs or Brian in the 2010-2015 timeframe, and he gave maybe one or two interviews and that was about it), and that and other factors led to the Thomas effect being dialed back to some degree.

I should also mention that as far as I'm aware (and as far as I assume), the things I'm not a fan of on the arrangement/production side (in addition to of course the things I like) are things Brian does *want* there. If I'm ready to grab the claves from any Brian session and throw them out the window, I'm acknowledging that they may be there in some cases because Joe Thomas is into it, but also because Brian likes having them there.

So is the case with the vocal smushing.

I also think it's possible the autotune and smushing (and autotune at very early live C50 shows) was a case of somebody somewhere in the chain perhaps being overly-concerned (and/or needlessly protective) of Brian's voice being more to the fore. There was some sort of apparent predilection for putting a ton of autotune on his voice or smothering his voice inside of double or triple-tracked vocals, often with one or all of the other voices being Foskett or someone else. That sort of effect *very sparingly* can be interesting and effective (and sometimes needed; this was done on certain key lines on the Beatles track "Free As a Bird" where McCartney's voice was somewhat subtly smushed in with the Lennon demo vocal). But I think "No Pier Pressure" showed that an aged, gruff, but honest-sounding Brian lead is just fine and in fact amazingly refreshing, as heard on something like "This Beautiful Day."

I think some of those NPP vocals people like are annoying, honestly, This Beautiful Day and I'm Feeling Sad in particular. I love the Brian-Al-Matt-Blondie-Whoisthat layering and unlayering makes for a fun listening experience. It's really interesting to hear different voices coming and going even within phrases. My two cents.

I like both albums but i prefer .. TLOS.. Better songs and more creative.. BW works well with Scott Bennett.

Interesting and likely accurate TWGMTR vocal breakdown Hey Jude.
One additional Mike moment to these ears could be during the Bill & Sue almost-acapella refrain which features a prominent bass vocal for about 6 notes.

About Strange World: I love that song, it always however seemed a slight shame that during (I think) the "county fair" part Brian is doing the lead, and behind him is what sounds like another Brian (and a bit of Jeff at the end) repeating the "strange world" line...would have been cool if a little extra care was taken to get Bruce or Al on that part and similar ones.

I think that TWGMTR is a very good album because we have to consider the age of the BB. Mike and Al voices are almost the same, and Brian.. you know it's always Brian. Al's voice is a focal point in BB albums, if you listen to it without knowing it's from 2012, it seems to have come out by the late 70's, especially in some songs. I love the sound of this album.
This is just my opinion from Italy :)

Yeah, for guys in their 70s, the album is quite good. 

Al's voice is stunningly intact and he does sounds shockingly similar in 2012 to how he sounded in the 80s or even 70s. I wouldn't say the same for Mike, who in 2012 had both a more fragile yet also less nasal voice compared to the 70s and especially 80s.

Yes, Mike's voice aged. It's good to hear it's less nasal.

True.  I never liked the exaggerated Mike voice from the late 70s / 80s. 

Mike's book mentions he gave up dairy at some point in the 90s or 2000s to help with the nasal thing. His description of giving up his "beloved Tillamook cheddar cheese" is kinda funny, and he genuinely seems more sad about giving up cheddar cheese and coffee ice cream than he does ending the reunion in 2012.  :lol

Really? This is interesting, is it Mike-invented or popular fact quitting dairy deletes nasality? Edit - smb. answered the question in the message.

I was surprised when checking my last.fm the other day that TWGMTR is my 4th most played Beach Boys album behind Smile, Pet Sounds and Today!. It's hard for me to properly formulate an opinion on it because what I love on it I think is some of the best stuff they've ever done, specifically From There to Back Again, but I hardly ever listen to anything in-between the first 2 and last 3 tracks.

That Lucky Old Sun I have had a harder time getting into. Though I love the version of Can't Wait Too Long on here, probably more than any other version I've heard even though it's very brief.

Both albums have their high points. TLOS would've made a good BB reunion album. On both records, some of the 'deep' lyrics sound a little forced to me but one song I absolutely love is Pacific Coast Highway. That, to me, is one of BW's very best post-Love You songs. Can't stand Beaches in Mind and Daybreak Over the Ocean is pretty laughable too.