The Smiley Smile Message Board

I know it sounds pretty obvious but something that these outtakes and clearer mixes of this period reveal is that despite the collapse of SMiLE, Brian was still the same mastermind behind the Smiley Smile and Wild Honey sessions. In fact when you actually look at it, he is far and away the most involved member, still in SMiLE mode so to speak. :bw

I know to many of you the answer to that is 'well, duh!'

But seriously guys, this changes all the myths about what the public assumed happened to the Beach Boys post-Smile. Now it's available for the public to hear with their own ears that Brian as he was during the Pet Sounds-Smile was still the same musical genius afterwards. The main ingredient he changed was switching from the session musicians back to the beach boys, so to speak. The innovation is there for everyone to see. You can hear him ALL OVER THIS THING.

So in a sense that makes this not only the most important Beach Boys release since the SMiLE Sessions but possibly the 2nd most important Beach Boys archival release to date. (Not counting the Pet Sounds Sessions for the simple fact that everyone knew it was an astonishing record)

God bless Brian, god bless the Beach Boys. God bless Mark, Alan, Capitol, Howie and everyone involved.

Selfish as it sounds, it desperately makes me want to see whats next in store, a Friends-20/20 release? The Sunflower Sessions? :o

This! Nail on the head, Sam. :=)

Great post.

Unfortunately there may be many fans who read the forums who would not say "well, duh!" about Brian's involvement in making and recording this music because they have been told otherwise. In the past several years some have stated as fact how Carl produced most of WH, and other similar commentary.

Now, what all fans who listen to this set will finally hear is the evidence via the actual session tapes and studio chatter who was really producing and creating this music. The fact any of that was in dispute on places like this forum by some people can be put aside in light of hearing the actual sessions.

I was just about to post something similar. He sounds like he's having fun, but is definitely more mellow overall. This boxset makes me appreciate these sessions so much more. His vocals are awesome too as always. There's one or two tracks where you can hear Bruce producing the vocal sessions too, I found that interesting as he's probably the most "trained" Beach Boy, so it makes sense.

Agreed, Brian's in charge but more mellow and they are having fun again in the studio. :hat

The only time throughout the whole set that I can hear Brian "in charge" is when he's instructing Dennis to play a tom on Let the Wind Blow.

I hear Carl counting off most of the tracks.

You're hearing wrong.

Yeah, it's definitely BW counting off almost all the songs. You can tell because his tempo changes on almost every take  — he's never been the best for timing

:-\ haha

Haven't heard all of it yet but I so agree with these comments. Some of the Smiley Smile material makes me feel that we can kind of flesh out SMiLE as it might have been had it been released back then.

Despite the legend that persists, my impression has always been that the beginning of Brian dropping out was 20/20. That was the first BB's album with a more democratic approach. Brian is all over Friends, Wild Honey, and Smiley.

Yes, absolutely. Carlin and others point to Brian's first significant setback coming in the second half of '68. Mike's TM conversion seems to have been a disruption for the band, and the creative collaboration between Mike & Brian--which had been revived so well on WILD HONEY--seems to hit a wall at this time. Add to all that the aborted tour that cost the band a lot of unrecoverable $$, the dismal sales performance of FRIENDS, the re-emergence of Murry as a pain-in-the-ass/thorn in his side, and the beginning of marital woes with Marilyn--all of this, plus the cumulative effect of having lost his way on SMiLE, must have taken its toll. Three LPs in a row that tanked must also have been a terrible blow to someone who'd been at the pinnacle of success eighteen months earlier. And one can only surmise that it would have been another blow when Carl & Dennis decided to bring the two SMiLE tracks out of the vaults against his wishes and put them on 20/20...if only to make it look as though Brian was plugging away as usual.

I'm a bit thrown and confused by this thread. The way I've pretty much *always* understood it (ever since I knew more than the most basic of facts about this group, anyway) was that the group certainly came back into the mix much more after SMiLE, being used on Smiley instrumentally for the first time properly since That's Not Me on Pet Sounds (yeah, I know there were a few instrumental contributions from Carl and Dennis on SMiLE here and there, but let's face it, it and Pet Sounds are pretty much the Wrecking Crew on the tracks)... *but* that Brian was still absolutely all over the writing, production and recording sessions on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, and that a significant step back from THAT didn't happen until late 1968, so that 2020 is the first one where his contributions are significantly down.

I got seriously into the Beach Boys in 1995, and by 1998-9, I already had that impression. The release album by album of the SOT bootlegs around 2000 only strengthened that sense. OK, so the sessions were fairly limited for Wild Honey, but who did we hear leading the sessions for that album that we *did* hear on SOT? BDW. And there was no doubt that it was Brian leading the Smiley sessions - we had a lot of those on SOT and his presence and influence is absolutely indisputable.

I can buy that the casual fan has had the idea, perhaps all the way back to the 70s, that Brian 'burned out after SMiLE' and disappeared rapidly, and very recently, anyone who became a fan through the Love and Mercy film might have got that idea, as that film does suggest that. But that can only have been having an influence on new fans' understanding of Brian's post-SMiLE involvement for a couple of years, since the film came out.

What I don't get are all the long-term posters here, deep-level fans many of you, who suddenly seem to be saying 'amazing! Brian was still involved during Wild Honey!!'. Surely, that's not been in dispute by anyone with a more than cursory understanding of the inter-group dynamics and their recording history for, well, *years*?

Did I miss something?

I recall some discussion a few years back about Brian maybe having had a much smaller role in the production and recording of *Sunflower* than had previously been thought, and evidence that his involvement in early 70s recordings was seriously down (for example that he didn't have very much to do with Carl and the Passions, and very much less involvement with the American Spring album than had been thought)... but again, I'd pretty much always understood that he was retreating pretty fast from his former role in the early 70s, so that didn't come as much of a surprise; it was just more detail to support that view. The comments on Sunflower were more surprising, as I'd always thought that sounded like quite a 'Brian' production to me, but learning that Carl, Bruce and Dennis were starting to shoulder a lot of the musical work wasn't too much of a shock (you can partly tell from the album's writing credits). I guess there's more to learn about the sessions for that album.

But the immediate post-Smile stuff up to 2020... I ask again, did you guys in this thread *really* think Brian wasn't very involved in those albums before Sunshine Tomorrow came out? And if so... why? I'm genuinely confused!

No surprise at all to me

Me neither

A couple years ago some people attempted to convince posters here that Carl was the brains behind the production. I think many were/are rightfully confused by this notion because, as you see, Brian was in control in the snippets we have heard. The people who argued in favor of Carl being behind the production had, at the time, credibility so it created a bit of confusion amongst posters here.

I think many of the replies in this thread may be more out of reassurance that they were right all along (rather than a sudden revelation). I’m happy that instead of being confined to a decades-old uneasily-found SOT boot, the evidence is now easily available for anyone to hear.

#1 rule in this fandom I’ve found: trust your own ears and intuitions rather than the word of those with an ax grind.

Hate to say it, Matt, but I'm a bit thrown by this post. Who are these "all" and these "many"? Names, please! :smokin

No mystery... I just meant the guys on this thread. Sam (OP here), guitarfool, rondemon...

And on the other board, I'm truly amazed to see the likes of Lee Dempsey and Mikie saying they're surprised to hear how in control Brian was too. It's not a sectarian viewpoint - I can't be bothered with all the Brianista/Lovester nonsense, there's nothing that interests me less. I'm just genuinely, genuinely surprised. There's been so many recordings out over the years that have shown that Brian was 'the man' in the studio until after Friends, and the gradual decline in involvement and participation didn't really set in until then.

Reading guitarfool and rab2591's posts above, I must have totally missed whatever was said here about how Carl did all the work after Smiley Smile (if indeed that *is* what was said). Or maybe I did read it and just totally forgot about it, because half an hour's selected listening to Smiley, WH and Friends session tapes would instantly disprove it, surely?

I don't doubt Carl stepped up *more* after SMiLE, and in time became a driving force in the studio... but for SS, WH, and Friends, you can't argue with what you hear on the sessions. It seems impossible to me that you could be uncertain about who is in charge, even if the group is playing much more of a role than they did from 1965 to summer 1967.

OK, thanks.

Maybe Carl's remark about WH being "Brian's album to cool out by" could be taken the wrong way.

Right, good point. I've always taken that quote of Carl's to mean 'here's Brian still running the show, but choosing to do it in a way that he found less stressful'. But I guess you could take it to mean 'this was an album where Brian sat out and nodded his head in the corner to what WE were making'. But I don't think the latter interpretation can be seen as correct for Wild Honey. On the MIU or Light Album sessions 10 years later, then possibly... but not in the late 60s. Or not before 1969 in earnest, anyway.

I might be wrong but I don't think these posters are surprised at Brian's level of involvement but are, rather, happy that the disc proves what they already knew to be true despite the counter-argument that Brian took more of a backseat role (EDIT: or produced more as part of a committee) post-Smile

Yes, fair point, Choc Shake Man! Some of the guys in this thread above probably weren't expressing 'Wow! Amazing! Brian was still in the studio for Wild Honey!!'. Perhaps that's unfair of me.

But clearly I missed some people here pushing the idea that BW was a zoned-out basketcase post-SMiLE and Carl had to do all the work from then on. Or something? I just can't see how that idea could have caught on, if it did.

I have been away from here a lot during the war-torn period of the past couple of years, so I probably did miss it. Like Linus and the brothers Karamasov in Schulz's Peanuts, I guess I just BLEEPED over it...!

Yes, maybe someone can point to a specific thread.

However, a lot of this also just stems from the fact that the production credits post-Pet Sounds are credited not to Brian but to The Beach Boys. And added to that, you have various pop media sources including the TV movies which essentially depicts Brian as going into hibernation with the collapse of Smile. All those things add up in the minds of some that Brian was off in his own world from early 1967 onwards. Nowhere was this more striking than in the American Family movie when Brian crashes a Sunflower session. The guys ask what they think of the recording and Brian simply sits down at a piano and plays some weird riff and the guys just look at him, mourning the loss of their former creative hero. The only problem with this depiction is that the song they were recording was Add Some Music - which Brian himself wrote! A fact that disrupts the whole intent of the scene.

So one of the things that people are suggesting is how much this alters what has been a long, ongoing popular assumption about what happened to Brian after Smile. Yes, probably most people here don't share that opinion (and, then again, maybe a former post will suggest that some do) but I think one of the central points here is that this set challenges that particular sentiment.

OK, I think I found the post in question:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2325.msg46616.html#msg46616

"having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence."

The post-SMiLE period has been exaggerated and distorted over the years. Brian was clearly "psychedelicate" in this early time frame but clearly still functioning quite well. The problem was that the music was so "out of step" with what was going on elsewhere that the rock press was doubly flummoxed--WTF was this stuff on the one hand, and what a bunch of steps "backward" from GV and the grand "orchestral maneuvers" in SMiLE.

I doubt most people here actually agree with the premise of this thread as stated in the subject matter. The biggest revelation here is the hidden threads between the post-SMiLE music of 1967 and how Brian was still working on several fronts at once, with different stylistic approaches that still manage to merge. That's what's mind-blowing about this set, and with all the great work from Howie and Mark, I think it might be Alan Boyd who deserves special mention for ordering the material in a way that brings all this out even more.

The story I remember hearing about the WH sessions is that Brian produced most of the lp, but after the Redwood/Darlin' mutiny he stepped back and let the rest of the band -- Carl and Bruce, mostly -- take charge in the studio.

Was Brian involved at all in 'How She Boogalooed It'?

I wouldn't have thought so either but Peter Reum is a well respected source.

Matt: I wasn't surprised at all. Not a bit.

It was a case of certain people in the past few years actually arguing the fact that Brian produced WH, etc. and putting out a narrative as fact that Carl produced most of WH. I knew already, prior to this set coming out, that this narrative was incorrect. If the narrative totally and completely blown to pieces by the audio finally released on this set came from a place of grudges, axes to grind, personal beefs, or whatever...that's on the people who were arguing and posting that way.

If you know something is fact, and some are arguing to the contrary despite evidence existing that backs up that fact, it's maddening as hell. But, that was the state of this and other issues especially since late 2012 or so. And yes, indeed, the fact that people who placed themselves in elevated positions of knowledge or authority on the history were putting these things out there in some cases made it even worse.

So, this set validates the truth, essentially. Listen to the tapes, you'll hear the truth and the facts of those sessions. No one can argue what's heard on the tapes.

Maybe that's why some are genuinely surprised and are responding as such. People unfortunately have been led to believe certain narratives which are simply not true, and which in some cases came more from grudges and personal beefs than the actual history and facts. Maybe some had to concede in light of the public hearing the hard evidence that there is no more bullshit that will stand in place of the actual truth. But that's the unfortunate part of that stuff corrupting the telling and reporting of the history.

Summing up: I already knew, I had no doubts, and argued as such several years ago on this board as the various narratives trying to dispute or diminish Brian's production role in the process or elevate others started going on the record.

What I have been posting here is a lot of pointing out a validation of what some of us already knew was the real story - the validation being the session material on this set - yet had to deal with arguing and debating and having to prove that 2+2 really did equal 4 as in many other cases of fact versus fiction coming from some people who either should have known better or who put grudges and personal affiliations and allegiances over stating fact.

Maybe you should be glad that you missed some of this stuff because it was literally like someone arguing that 2+2 is not 4, and E does not equal MC squared. Now everyone can hear it and the phony narrative can go straight to the garbage bin where it belongs.

Ok, so Brian produced Wild Honey, was fully engaged and on point, and it still bombed.  Likewise with Friends.  Hmm, I'm not too sure I would be pushing this narrative as a Brianista.  Much as I like both records, I was always kind of relieved that Brian was somewhat insulated from their commercial failure by the "Produced by the Beach Boys" narrative.  But then again, maybe HE was expecting the commercial failure and wanted the credits to insulate him from that perceived impending failure....

Having said all this, Smiley and WH, much as I like them, are pullbacks artistically and commercially.  Doesn't mean they are bad, not saying that at all, just that, well, he did bunt, like at least twice in a row and that is something you just don't expect out of your power hitter....

While I agree that Brian was more involved than most popular opinion seemed to indicate I don't like the trash talking on somebody like Peter Reum, who in my opinion is one of the most knowledgeable and thoughtful fans of The Beach Boys, not to mention a huge, huge fan of Brian, who even inspired him to write "Don't Let Her Know She's an Angel." *



*Interesting story, maybe it's online somewhere.

Since they are among two of the greatest albums ever made, I am quite happy with Brian's level of involvement as a fan.


Most of the band were not in much of a position to have expectations from their power hitter, given how little they seemed to like his work from about 1966 onwards.

Who has done that?

Clearly we all respect Peter for so many reasons, and his quoted statement certainly contains many seeds of truth. But it is too sweeping in its implications that Brian was a non-functional mental wreck immediately after the shelving of SMiLE. And other experts can correct me, but I simply do not recall cocaine taking center stage in the drug world at that time...it strikes me that this was a seventies phenomenon, which fits in more with Brian's legendary siesta from 1973-75.

Let's remember that the BBs deal with Warners had certain guidelines about how much involvement Brian would have with the LP, so it was clearly necessary for them to make it appear that he was more involved with the studio process than was actually the case. But what we know now indicates that this period began in mid-late '68 and was still nothing like the full-blown malaise that took hold in '73 (with some still continuing to speculate that it was Murry's death which triggered it...I would guess that this was more peripheral, and what really brought it to a head was twofold--the despair of having become a piñata within his own band, particularly with the Love power grab underway, and escalating mental/emotional crises exacerbated by a sharp increase in drug intake during that time (remember, we are referring to '73-'75 here).


Thanks for this load of drivel that clearly misses the point of what Brian and the band were trying to do at this time. Ignoring the incredible backlash against Smiley is what allows this ludicrous lumping of cause, effect and result. WILD HONEY did not "bomb." Miraculously, given the press at the time, it withstood all that and cracked the top 25. "Darlin'" was a Top 20 hit. Now, FRIENDS was a different matter--it really did BOMB. Part of that seems to have been some really strange timing where the single "Friends" was released three months ahead of the LP and fell off the charts before the album was released.

But what's clear is that even as Brian continued to be the prime mover of the studio work in this time frame, the democratic principle was evolving right alongside that, with Dennis's songs emerging and Carl becoming more of an independent force in the studio (as the quotes in Howie's liner notes for ST demonstrate). It's easy to forget that Carl was still just 20-21 in this time frame--anyone who listens to the PARTY! session CD can hear that his growth into the role he would shortly have within the band was already occurring then...at a time when he was still only 18.

Trying to recover one's bearings after a trying situation was what was going on at the time, which was a helluva lot more important than coming up with a "retro" song that would somehow bring them back to pre-PS commercial glory. This ill-informed pile of ill will overlooks the fact that later in '68, Mike got his way and co-created with Brian a "retro" song--"Do It Again"--and while it has been fully "rehabilitated" thanks to the ripeness of time, the fact AT THE TIME was that it was derided for trying to calculatedly be retro and it struggled to get to the Top 20, doing no better than "Darlin'."

Frankly, it's clear that you haven't bothered to get the ST set, and are, as usual, talking out of your hat.

Brian is always in charge in the studio even in at the worst personal shape of the 1970s. I think Peter Reum meant more the management and leadership out of the studio after the 20/20 to love you era.

There were people saying Carl produced most of Wild Honey. I remember well because I was neck-deep in trying to argue against that - whether it was a statement, opinion, narrative, agenda, whatever...and whatever it was, it was as untrue then as it is now. But now fans can hear how untrue it was by listening to this set. Even if some can't distinguish the voice of Brian counting off a song at the piano versus the voice of Carl...and I still want to know if anyone can pinpoint and share any examples on this set that would show Carl producing or leading these sessions.

Someone mentioned hearing Bruce doing some vocal arranging somewhere on this set...I'd like to listen to that too, can someone post a track and a time for reference? Thanks!

Oh I agree with you on that, the narrative pushed by a few posters of Carl producing wild honey strangely fits into a 2005 lawsuit....

Maybe but what does that have to do with him "having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years"?

I missed that exact post in that old thread, you are right 100% since the tapes show BW in charge.

To me the more interesting question is: if Brian was still mostly calling the shots through the Friends era, why did he decide to change the produced credit from Brian to The Beach Boys at all?

I think the answer lies in that "Produced by Brian Wilson" can actually mean two distinct things: the technical studio producer and the person in charge of overall creative direction.

I would argue that after SMiLE it was the latter role that he ceded, at least partially. The other guys got a lot more input on the kind of approach they'd be taking, although the former role was still mostly Brian.

The key to this theory is the contemporary interview post SMiLE in which Brian basically calls the Beach Boys "squares". The subtext is his realization that the band has sensibilities somewhat distinct from his, at least at that time. Hence the production credit change and the new approach, a far cry from his SMiLE era interviews in which the possibilities are limitless and the Boys are capable of anything. Now it's more about, let's come up with stuff that these other guys will want to perform and be able to execute effectively for their road show.

For Smiley Smile, Mike (and maybe Brian himself to an extent) wished for the lyrics to be more relatable and so the VDP contributions were cut back considerably.

Wild Honey seems to be the best example of this dichotomy. To my ears, the creative direction is highly influenced by Carl and Mike, even though Brian's imprimatur is still all over everything save maybe Boogalooed it.

Now Friends is interesting because, again to my ears, it sounds the closest to the old "Produced by Brian Wilson" method of all the albums in this era. The degree of studio production and creative direction seems much more "pure Brian", informed by the laid back TM vibe that maybe they were all going for. It's interesting that after this sign of a renewed commitment from Brian from both the studio production and artistic direction standpoints, he really steps back drastically. As others have stated, the events of late 1968 seem to be just as crucial as the events of early 1967 in Brian's creative story, even though we know far less about the latter period...

Interesting theory,  Adam

You can sense that something is changing over these sessions -- the mere fact that Carl is singing lead as much as he is, the fact that Mike is writing the lyrics. As stated earlier, the band is now more of a true band, like those earlier records where Dennis brought back themes and Mike provided words. Brian is still there most steps of the way, the music is still ambitious and accomplished in a way that few managed in that era -- but.

Remember that folks saw Pet Sounds as a commercial disappointment. Smile was scrapped. And Smiley, WH, Friends and the rest -- they all bombed commercially. Brian was still able to come up with a hit single when he put his mind to it, but surely it means something that "Darlin'" was a reused Honeys melody. And "Do It Again" from a bit afterward was a self-conscious rewrite.

Brian was too fragile, too buffeted by the personalities around him, and above all too dependent on feedback from a mass audience to survive the problems engulfing the group.

I think we need to put some of the facts on the table for the discussion.

There may be some confusion between "creative direction" and the actual ability to create an album's worth of material. Neither Mike nor Carl could do that in October 1967. Blunt fact, Carl didn't write an original song of his own until several years later. The only thing Mike "produced" from this time period was the Pickle Brothers, and the results of that can be heard and judged accordingly. They simply did not have the tools in their arsenal to tackle the full process yet. If anyone would be stepping up, it was Dennis, and even with his original material to come with Friends, Brian was still there contributing (uncredited) and acting like a mentor.

Brian wanted the band members to take a more active role. There was also the sense of trying to gel more as a band and get the others to become more active in the nuts and bolts of making recordings and writing songs, where Brian could eventually step back even more and let them flourish. But in Fall 1967, no one else was there in terms of ability. It would take more practice and hands on work to get to where they would soon be.

Since the Preiss book came out in 1978, there was a quote from Carl on the record that the creative direction of Wild Honey was Brian's, specific to going for a more hard-edged R&B sound, and also specific to the vocals. According to Carl, Brian was tired of having the band's voices compared to choirboys. It explains perfectly the shift to what we hear especially from Carl and Brian vocally on WH. Carl spelled it out to the letter in terms of that creative direction. It was Brian, much more than Carl and Mike, who wanted to go for that new sound with the band.

Keep in mind - Wild Honey the single was recorded and released prior to the album. It charted top 5 in more urban markets like Detroit and Philly, whose radio audiences were more receptive to R&B music in general and played those records more than other markets. That bit of history gets overlooked - Wild Honey did go top 5 in certain urban markets. Brian was right at least on people willing to buy a good R&B single from the Beach Boys. Those markets bought the single.

Then...the Redwood thing, etc...the band all but begged then demanded Brian "come back" to produce a Beach Boys album after devoting time (and original songs) to outside artists slated for the Brother label.

Logic and common sense would suggest if anyone else in the band individually or as a group could have written and produced a handful of songs from beginning to end without Brian or with minimal involvement, they would not have needed him back at the helm as they did.

When Carl himself said it was Brian's creative direction to go R&B with a harder vocal sound, and his commentary has been on the record for almost 40 years, that's pretty airtight evidence and reporting of how and why things happened as they did with the WH single and album.

In terms of the "produced by The Beach Boys" credit, aside from what I mentioned above and the desire to get back as a group in some ways, consider what ex-wife Marilyn said in one of the 90's documentaries about that credit and Brian wanting to pull back. It was to the tune of Brian tired of the criticism and infighting about the music and saying to them "if you guys think you can do it better, go right ahead and start doing it". But the truth is, they were not at a skill level to do it as of 1967, definitely not in terms of writing full songs without Brian and not yet there in terms of the start to finish production process of making a new album. That's why Brian is still heard calling the shots on this new set.

There is a funny sense of trying to put others into the existing film frame like Woody Allen did with Zelig, suggesting no matter what actually happened there is still credit to be handed out despite that credit not really existing that prominently as fact. Or, the credit being overblown.

Another theory blown away by this release was Mike Love being really involved with let the wind blow in the studio.

Not to mention the deal with Mama Says which were Van Dyke's lyrics (slim as they may be) dating back to a Smile fragment which Mike somehow gets a credit for co-writing.

Guitarfool, I feel like I'm largely saying the same thing you're saying, just in a different way. I'm not suggesting that Brian isn't making the creative decisions in this period, it's just that he's taking the concerns and sensibilities of the other members more into account in his decision making rather than simply going with his unfettered creative vision as he mostly did up to and including the SMiLE era (with the exception perhaps of Party). Maybe rather than saying Wild Honey reflected the creative inclinations of the other BBs, I'll argue that Brian's creative decisions were being made with the wants and needs of the other members on his mind more than before.

Yeah...a certain discredited pretend scholar used to claim that the song was Mike's and Brian rearranged it. Same guy who claimed Here Comes the Night was sung by Carl.

Three reasons, not musically exclusive.

1. A desire to re-integrate the Boys and the band concept into the recording process following, from Brian's own account, a near break-up when Brian unilaterally decided to shelve a year's worth of expensive and time-consuming recording work.

2. A deliberate rejection of the "Brian as musical godhead" identity that had been built around him by well-meaning public relations officers but, from Brian's perspective, had produced very little usable material.

3. Passive aggression.

The Produced by the Beach Boys credit:

1. To counter the "beach boys are puppets and Brian the genius/puppet master" hype

2. The music since it is played by the Beach Boys is literally "produced by the Beach Boys"  (a different meaning of produced than the traditional record producing credit to be sure, but it counters the bad press that the music was all done by studio session musicians and the Beach Boys weren't playing on any of the records aka the Monkees.  And the Monkees thing was not completely correct either.)

3. After the bad UK press of recent tours where they were criticized for not reproducing their sound on record, Brian wanted to simplify the music and certainly having the Boys play the music themselves would mean it would be readily reproducible on stage - so this is where I see Brian taking the group's concerns and changing the musical direction to suit the group and their live performances.  Carl as leader of the touring group would certainly be an influence here.

4. In many ways I think Wild Honey, and Smiley to a lesser extent, were done to cater to Mike as a "payback" for the Pet Sounds/Smile experimentation and the cutting him out of songwriting royalties.  First the Brian and Mike single, then Smiley, and then Wild Honey with Mike granted co-writer credit on everything.  Mike was always into R & B (although Brian was too, but Mike more so and I believe Mike's enthusiasm for R & B was shared with Brian who subsequently adopted the same enthusiasm) and Brian knew he would be on board with this direction AND it would suit his lyric writing skills (in a way Pet Sounds and Smile did not).

I met Brian in August 1969.  He was vital, involved and as brilliant as always.  I did see Carl doing part of the final mix of Sunflower at Wally Heider with Steve Desper.  I don't know how much Brian was involved in that, but his compositions are obvious.  Before that, if you get Brian's music you get his influence. 

After that, I saw what the other BBs would do to get him to help in the studio.  He was "the man."  I'll bet if Carl and Dennis were alive today, they'd agree.  Unfortunately, I have no proof.  Not to mention, where would any of them have been musically without Brian's training and influence?  Let's get serious here.

I may have taken what you wrote, specifically about Mike and Carl and creative direction, in a way other than you intended. Just to understand where I'm coming from, in recent years there have been deliberate efforts to lessen the role Brian played in favor of boosting the credits for other members, with some comments coming in modern interviews with Mike and whatnot. Some of those comments went directly to the issues of Brian's role as producer, the roles in creative decision making, and in the case of Wild Honey, suggestions that Carl produced the majority of Wild Honey. As in most of these cases, it tends to be a lot of mistaken views or hogwash at best...and deliberate attempts to change historical fact at worst. Often by those who are either self-appointed keepers and distributors of the band's history or who assumed that role by default, somehow.

So some of these points can tend to raise the blips on the radar screen.

I do think, and have discussed at length as recent as last year on this board, how the critical drubbing the band received for those live shows in Spring 1967 was a factor in the music changing so radically as it did, including the recording process itself. There are interviews from that time where Carl, Mike, etc try to address that negative reception from some circles, centered around the live concerts not sounding like the records and even pointing out how they tried and were denied the addition of players to the core band due to some union regulation in the UK, or whatever happened.

Well, how could they match the sound, right? You can't have a 5-piece or even an augmented 5-piece band reproducing recordings where Brian had 20 musicians playing together in the studio.

In that regard, I think The Beatles not only were sick of touring in general, but they knew they could not match the directions their music was going in the studio in any valid way on the live stage. The entire mindset changed, and the Beatles said no more touring. Yet they were still the Beatles, right? It was taking them more months to record a single album than it had before, just like Brian.

But there was no pressure to tour or play live within the Beatles. They drew that line and stuck with it, and made records instead.

What The Beach Boys did was, with Brian, start making records in a way that could be reproduced on stage and not sound all that far out from the records. The Hawaii shows were an attempt to do that, I say. Which might explain the rearrangements of some of their 65-66 hits at those shows too.

Smiley Smile, but particularly Wild Honey and Friends are surefire attempts at the boys (largely Brian) stripping it down to basics and involving the band more in the proceedings. The main reason for The Beach Boys production credit?

1. To get rid of a lot of the pressure from Brian.
2. Try and step away from the godlike adulation of one Brian Wilson and to get The Beach Boys to be taken seriously as a democratic band, not just one with a puppet master pulling all the strings. (Which is how many fans and critics have viewed the group since the mid-60s. Deserved or not)

I think when I wrote my opening post I should have been clearer that believing that Brian was not the mastermind behind Wild Honey was never something i've actually believed, rather that Sunshine Tomorrow shatters the myth that a lot of people have believed and continue to believe which is that Brian was barely hanging on after SMiLE's collapse and The Beach Boys immediately took up the mantle from Brian. Documentations such as this release show that he was in the drivers seat for the next several albums. Even during his psychiatric troubles during the 20/20 era it was still him the other boys relied on heavily. The I Can Hear Music single and the Sunflower album seem to be the real start of The Beach Boys functioning as a democratic unit in all sense of the word.

Interesting points. I think as in any job or trade even outside of music, there cannot be an expectation for an apprentice or protege/mentee to step in and start doing master-level or even journeyman level work right out of the gate. There is a learning curve, and I think the attempts to suggest or even state outright that Carl or anyone else would have just stepped right into the driver's seat in the summer or fall of '67 to take over the production of an album almost entirely from Brian misses that basic fact of life and work. There is and was a learning curve, and as the skills were sharpened and more tools added to the skill set, then there was product which reflected that in the music. And the band was able to produce quality work with lesser involvement from Brian in the process, even though they did still rely on him, as did the various labels who were signing the band over the next decade even if in name and presence only.

Another Beatles compare and contrast scenario to factor in, and even extending well beyond the Beatles and into the 60's era with bands in general.

How many bands on the level of popularity and status as The Beach Boys had a band member in the self-contained unit who did as much for the music and its creation as Brian? The Beatles had George Martin, obviously, he was "producer". If they needed an oboe and cello arrangement, if they needed strings to sweeten a track, there was George Martin filling that role as producer. I will say some of those really, really classic Beatles recordings would not have been what they are without George Martin, without Geoff Emerick after '66, etc. They were not band members, they didn't write the songs, but they filled in the ideas and filled requests and necessities which the band members could not.

Consider Brian was George Martin in the Beach Boys, along with being a Beach Boy, along with writing the overwhelming majority if not all of the original music on the albums up to 1967...and factor in the output, the number of albums and singles the band released from 62 to 67.

It's staggering to think of it on those terms. It is amazing it produced as much quality as it did in 5 years, and you have to think that kind of work schedule and expectations could not be sustained for too long.

Did any other bands with the stature and success of the Beach Boys in the mid 60's have a single band member responsible for all of those jobs? Most if not all had someone specifically assigned as producer, and that person was most often not actually in the band but rather attached to either the label or another interest whom the band was working for. It really is staggering.

I'm just going to throw some thoughts and ideas for discussion. It's an interesting subject, for sure!

Listening to the progression of the approach from the "end" of the Smile period to Wild Honey (and later Friends), it's actually very organic. The Smile box bore this out but hearing the Wild Honey backing tracks/sessions just emphasizes it. Brian's still using the detuned piano for feels, still recording modularly, etc. I don't know what "changed" per se, but Brian was already pulling back from the studio musicians + Beach Boys vocals approach in the Smile era. He was also doing more "basic" tracks to build on.

Other things to consider (as always) are competitiveness, the sheer effort involved (mentally, physically and emotionally), the want for commercial success, the want for critical acclaim, the desire to keep making music, the following of the muse, and, yes, the input from the rest of the group.

You can also look at Party's (and Barbara Ann's) commercial success compared to Little Girl I Once Knew and Pet Sounds. I can see how Brian would get discouraged, or how the rest of the band would question the need for going through all the effort.

Adding to your thoughts...I think also that a complete new direction was probably vital to the survival of this group. Surf music was long irrelevant, the Beatles were doing psychedelia, Dylan electric, (both soon to go more stripped down).

Where could The Beach Boys go? R&B was a perfect avenue for them to travel down; it was a complete new sound and the group absolutely nailed it. Even if Carl was doing far more leads I think that it was less about Brian taking a step back and more about Brian choosing the perfect man to lead their new sound. I think Brian only started stepping back when he realized the public didn't care about their change in sound.

I really think the problem with Wild Honey was that muddy sound. Take a song like 'Darlin'' - put that single out in '67 with its recent remix from this set and it has a far better chance of being chart topping material...that song with the recent mix is out of this world. Becoming more stripped down in their production was a great choice, but not keeping the recordings crisp and defined for release really killed the overall sound.