The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'm going to say the most polarizing album is Love You, which I personally love.  What do you say?

Id have to agree.  Many love Love You.  I think its a bottom tier BB album.

Id add Smiley Smile, MIU, and LA to the list of polarizing albums too.

Smiley Smile

Love You

Summer In Paradise

Is Summer in Paradise a joke? I thought it was universally panned even by the most ardent BB supporters.

Smiley Smile is definitely polarizing and always inevitably compared to Smile.

Exactly what I was thinking, on both counts.

Love You has its detractors, but overall I think it's got too many fans (particularly dedicated ones) to put it as one of the most polarising. For me, it's gotta be Smiley Smile, MIU, LA and the 85 album. Out of these only MIU I generally dislike..... the 85 album if you ask me is the most polarising given that it has its fair share of staunch defenders (including myself) and those that consider it among the Boys' worst efforts.

No joke. Far too many think the SIPster has some kind of redeeming value which gets staunchly defended when brought into the conversation on this and other boards.

Only in your world, which seems to be dominated by a neverending stream of perceived Mike Love trigger moments

I agree on MIU, LA, and BB85. I don't think Smiley Smile counts because most people i have seen enjoy it. I also haven't heard of too many people that necessarily hate it. Those three albums each have their fair shares of supporters and detractors, but i do not know which one would be the most polarising. And in regards to SIP i do not think it has too many supporters but there are debates as to whether or not it has any redeeming qualities - which in my opinion it does ;D

:lol :lol :lol

In addition to what has been mentioned, in my opinion CATP is a polarizing album.  But maybe that's just because I seem to like it more than most people.  I think it's my favorite album of the "Carl Era" but if you read its reviews online, it hovers in the "C+" or 2.5 star range.  

In regards to SIP, I think maybe half the album is decent.  So, its not the total trainwreck its often billed as.

But just about any subpar album has redeeming qualities.

Maybe SUSA is polarizing, in that either you love its "sea of instrumentals" or you don't. (I do.)

Outside of Beach Boy Land (and stretching the definition slightly), I'd say Pet Sounds is polarizing in the battle for best pop album ever. (Some people insist on choosing Pepper instead.)

When it comes to what was or is "polarizing", you often have to separate out "original" (or long-time) fans and fandom from more recent/younger fans.

That is, I think "Love You" was probably polarizing to the fanbase (and critics) back in 1977, whereas now I'd say the vast majority of "hardcore" fans have some amount of affection for it.

Conversely, "Summer in Paradise" was universally panned by critics, consumers, and hardcore fans, and it's in more recent years where you'd be more likely to find some outliers who might like the album. Often, this comes from newer fans who kind of took an unavoidable "shortcut" to becoming a "hardcore" fan and consumed the entire BB catalog for the first time over the span of several weeks or months or maybe a year as opposed to decades.

Not to veer to far off topic, but I think this ability for new fans to shortcut to "hardcore" fan status and have access to a ton of info and music and consume it all at once has led to some minor disconnects between groups of fans. For instance, I do see some very new fans, or folks who have been fans for maybe five or ten years, who sometimes seem much more incredulous regarding criticism of Mike Love. I think this comes in part from having the impact of having to spend *decades and decades* being exposed to things he's done and said be blunted by learning about all of it over weeks or months. Reading in a book that some people take issue with Mike and reading some of the things he's done or said is very different from spreading all of that out over decades and continually being exposed to it as a fan. The same thing may hold true for some of their music. When you digest their entire catalog relatively quickly, it's maybe not as big of a disappointment when a huge hunk of an album sucks. No big deal, there are dozens of albums, right? But fans in the 80s and 90s were waiting years and years only to be met with a somewhat weird, divisive album (BB '85), a *literally* half-assed album ("Still Cruisin'"), and one de facto Mike Love solo album with guest spots from some BBs ("Summer in Paradise").

OSD, maybe you're right, but seeing SS and LY alone in SIP's company makes me want to throw the monitor away. :'(

To polarize a fan base, something has to be liked and not liked. In that regard Smiley Smile and Love You started building fanbases with an underground cult status similar to the film "Head" (which polarized Monkees fans when it was released) but through the years built up a loyal following and eventually reached a status of extending to wider audiences and gaining more fans outside the core BB audience.

Repeating myself here, and echoing what other fans have said: When Summer In Paradise came out, it was one of the bigger "what the f***?" moments among fans of a band with the stature of The Beach Boys. Polarizing? I don't know anyone who thought it was good when it came out, or now. It was a turkey. Therefore, not quite polarizing because there were no "likes". Even among the ten thousand or so people who actually bought it when it was released. No idea how many people got it when Mike included it as a freebie giveaway with the GV box set on QVC.

Most polarizing? Tough call. Smiley Smile did have Heroes and Good Vibrations, the singles to date, when it was released. But at that time, which I wasn't around to experience firsthand, I can imagine a lot of polarization among the band's fans expecting a certain sound especially with those singles. But look at where it is now: A new BB collection is coming out focused a lot on the album with outtakes and fresh mixes and mastering. If it were that polarizing, I doubt there would be a demand enough to justify a release like this upcoming '67 set. people are excited for it and I think ready to hear it with fresh ears.

You'd be better off if you got used to it instead of getting your panties in a bunch because there's more coming your way, bub.
Question for you, who's putting the gun to your head making you read my posts? Huh?  ::)

I think to a certain degree TWGMTR is a bit polarizing.  

Some were happy to have a quality studio album with The Beach Boys banner on it again.  Some, myself included, say its the best BB album since Holland.

Then, theres the fans who dismiss it as "Joe Thomas / Jeff Foskett Reimagine The Beach Boys."

TWGMTR certainly polarized Mike from the band and a lot of the fan base who bought and enjoyed it, and he's still grinding his axe about it as of recent interviews. It was a top-5 album that got mostly positive reviews, was it polarizing? I think people were happy to have it come out when it did and the music (save for a few missteps) actually holds up pretty well 5 years later.

Shut down vol. 2- It's either all time classics or horrible filler.

Regarding SIP, I can see why it would be considered polarizing because I too have seen far too many people defend that album, going far enough to say that they like it. However, you can't really believe they truly mean it....like goth kids in middle school who would say they worshiped Satan; it's something to say to get attention, piss people off, and nothing more. That album is the sonic equivalent of getting a root canal whilst simultaneously getting beaten with a stick.

Love You is probably the most polarizing...so many fans ardently love it and so many hate it. In fact I'd say that Love You has the most consistent conversations on this forum about that very topic.

Agreed. Maybe there is an element in the forum fanbases of defending SIP (or trying to find something to defend) solely because it's a Mike Love-led album and slagging off on Love You because it's a Brian-driven album, even though Carl did a lot of work on it too. Who knows.

I think the small SIP fanbase is the natural reaction to horrible reputation of SIP. They think "It can't be that bad" even taking in account songs like "summer of love"....

I'm sure there's some of that too. However I can totally see why people hate Love You regardless of who made it. It's one album I would never put on when guests are over, but it's one I crank up to high heaven when no one is around. It's beautiful, powerful, but sometimes embarrassing if you don't know the context.

That album is interesting that way: shouldn't one base their love of an album solely on the music itself? I think the story of Brian's life helps make his music that much more memorable and immersive. And Love You is a perfect example of this. Without any context 'Roller Skating Child' is a creepy af song about some 30-40 year old dude enamored with a girl who loves roller blading young enough to still be living with her parents...Jesus. But in context it's child-like Brian Wilson dreaming of the old days wishing he were a young guy wooing his crush.

Back on topic, with that (and the synths, sometimes haggard vocals) I can see why anyone would think this album sucks. That being said I love it to death.

Peter Carlin had such a great commentary on this album. I really need to read Catch A Wave again soon.

Oh my god yeah, it makes me laugh just thinking of it!

In that case it's not polarizing but polarized. ;D

Right! ;D

I just listened to it recently, and I think it still holds up.  But, it has its share of detractors across several BB/BW forums. 

I like about half the album, but Summer of Love marks the absolute low point in the BB canon. 

Summer in Paradise is one huge pile of dog sh*t. Anyone that says they like it is merely trolling.

As cheesy as it is, I don't mind the live version from the MiC box set...that version is packed with a lot of energy.

I think that's about as far as anyone will go in defending it from what I've seen.  There's the odd youtube comment where someone proclaims it's their favorite album, but that's expected on that site.  I'm in the same boat as you in thinking there are about six decent songs on the album.  Some songs are hurt by the production more than others.  The only songs I listen to with somewhat regularity are Lahaina Aloha, Strange Things Happen and the live version of Summer in Paradise.  As rab said, it packs a lot of energy and you don't have the bad production of the studio version. 

There's an okay EP buried in SIP. Like a 4 or (if feeling generous) 5 song EP. But the bad stuff is *so* bad, it almost makes one forget that there is some decent, yet very poorly produced, material still on it. If it had been released as an EP minus the absolutely terrible tracks, I can't imagine it would be hated in the same way.

It's too bad Brian wasn't around the band at this time.  You could have swapped in some of the rejected Sweet Insanity songs. 

Our best bet is to define "polarizing" as those records that sent the group off into the wilderness surrounded by fully sprouted seeds of doubt.

If you define it that way, it's clear that Smiley Smile and Love You are the two most polarizing. Both critics and fans were confused by Smiley at the time, and that was a lingering effect despite the intense cult that built up around it. It left people unable to process the set of changes that came after it, and it's only fifty years later where a consensual counter-narrative is gaining significant strength to elevate Wild Honey to greater esteem.

Critics loved Love You because they heard the quirks and shards of Brian Wilson in the material and wanted to create/extend that narrative (do we call it a "meme" these days??), but the fans (even those who'd soldiered through the 67-73 period and had greeted 15BO with stony silence in hope that the next record would bring things more "on track") were divided by what they heard. Unfortunately the LPs subsequent to Love You did not come close to matching what followed Smiley Smile, and this created a semi-permanent malaise mitigated briefly by "Kokomo" (though it, too, was polarizing despite its popularity...) and that lingered around the remnants of the band until TWGMTR, a collection that was--ironically--more universally admired by the casual fan than the long-term die-hard.

Endless Summer. Just when the boys were continuing to try new things this awesome 'greatest hits' album comes out and pretty much reintroduces the public to what an amazing band the Beach Boys are and forces the band to become an 'oldies' touring act to appease them. Such a double-edged sword, that album.

I like most - not all - of it, and did when I first got it 24 years ago. Sorry, not trolling, just a fan since 1962 and long-time member of this board. Sorry to have a different view than you, but that's life.

Love You is the obvious contender but I think M.I.U gets a lot of flack along with L.A

Starting to think it may be Wild Honey!  Some on here are attempting to turn it into another Pet Sounds, while others think it is kind of a slight, ho hum effort, competent but hardly great....

And some of us actually think it's a better album than PS (yes, really)! I'm not trolling, either -- just not as big a fan of PS as many others are. It ranks somewhere in the middle of the catalog for me. Your mileage may, and probably will, vary and that's OK with me.

OTOH, I don't think PS is overrated, because it's been so influential.

Smiley Smile & Holland. SS is wow; SS big disappointment after PS/ Smile failure. Holland the BBs at best, rocking with Blondie & Ricky, Carl etc.; Holland overrated/ Jack Rieley bad lyricist, voice/ not too inspiring songs. Re: LY - broadly, it's liked, 3-5 dislikes isn't "polarizing".

So then what you're saying is S.I.P. is totally and obviously a complete and total piece of mega-fly-swarm attracting sh*t and therefore not polarizing?  I agree with you 1000%.  It gets played on my various players...vinyl, c.d. or otherwise as often as these next 2 dollops listed below.  Anyone who defends this one as worthy of anything other than being ignored and forgotten is lying to everyone...especially themselves.

Smiley Smile was a total disappointment...an unreasonable facsimile...a musical faux pas issued by a bunch of hash inhaling stoners fiddlin' around in the studio on a t.h.c. induced lark.  A masterpiece was expected.  A practical joke was delivered.  Many didn't get 'the joke'.  Some suggest that they do.  So?  It's a polarizer.  Hey!!!  They had to release something.  So they did.

Love You is Simple Simon met a Pie-Man going for a dump.  Said Simple Simon to the Pie Man "let me hear your record".  Said the Pie Man to Simple Simon "what?  You mean this turd?"  Yet some folks think it's just the cat's ass...a release worthy of adulation.  It's a retroactive return to the simplicity of Surfin' Safari with timely production values if I'm being kind...and it's, therefore, a polarizer.

There are some other crappy releases.  Not many.  A few.  Most agree that they obviously  L A C K and work against the numerical rating in terms of the group's entire body of work.

I interpret "most polarizing" as those lps evoking the most passionate disagreements.

M.I.U. might have fans disagreeing about its quality, but those disagreements seem to be low-key. Folks don't really care all that much. And SIP has, on the one side, fans who passionately hate it, but then we have on the other side people only saying that it's not total garbage, it has 4 or 5 ok songs. Passion on one side, but not the other.

Love You and Smiley Smile, though, have passionate proponents on each side of the quality argument. Now, whether fans consider Smiley Smile great, near-great, or a mere shadow of what should have been, I think everyone agrees that it's a Beach Boys record, fitting more or less comfortably into their existing canon.

Those fans who dislike Love You, though, tend to consider it as an anomaly, a Brian solo album in all but name -- a Brian at his most eccentric, synth-crazed phase to boot, and as such not really belonging in The Beach Boys mainstream.

So, the correct answer to the question of "what is the most polarizing Beach Boys album" is : Love You.

Don't know about polarised. People who don't love Love You should be VAPORISED!

Or ostracised.

And don't get me started on Smiley Smile dislikers. They should be victimsed, paralysed and then sodomised. 

  THIS!!!  ;)   I agree with everything you 'said'.   >:D  But what you typed is urine infested and severely soaked.  :lol

Add Some, I wrote it 'cos I knew it'd make you SMiLE.

If Love You had the quality of vocals of Smiley, I might like it. They may have been higher than whatever while recording Smiley, but they could sing beautifully when high in 1967. Not so in 1977.

To appreciate either of these albums you have to listen beyond production and performance.  Those are just surface things. Amazing things await the deeper listener. Brian Wilson music is much more than just production and 'good' singing.

Love You and Smiley Smile are two of the best, most original and most emotionally beautiful albums produced by anyone in pop/rock music history.

I remember that some time ago Carl and the Passions used to be quite controversial among fans. Many seem to like it a lot now, myself included.

To be fair, the only things Smiley Smile and Love You are missing are good songs, good production, and good vocals.  

 :lol

(Rolling up sleeves)

Let's take this outside.

Should I be listening for the notes they're not playing? 

 ;D

To those especially put off by the "sound" of "Love You", the 1976 Brian demo tape (demoing "Love You" and "Adult Child" material) should be ample proof that some of the "Love You" *songs* are quite good. That little left-turn chord change at the end of "Let's Put Our Hearts Together" is amazing, and several other "Love You" songs shine through on those simple piano demos.

We do obviously hear very different things. I hear everything I love about Brian as a composer in spades on those two albums. Mainly in terms of form and arrangement. Chord sequence as well, especially on Smiley Smile. Just compare the Wind Chimes chord progression with the less adventurous Smile version. No comparison.

But as I've  said many terms, aren't  we lucky to have such a diverse cataogue? Literally something for everyone.

Make no mistake, it's not always 100% awesome. The "Love You" demo tape has some transcendent, amazing moments. And it also has "Mona", in my opinion one of his most annoying, monotonous songs ever.

Absolutely. It just involves hearing beyond the production.

I honestly understand that's hard sometimes. I can't listen to any of the Joe Thomas stuff due to my inability to hear beyond the production.

How ever much people tell me that life suite is up there with Brian's best work, I just can't hear it due to Certain Production Choices Which I Won't Mention.

Production aside, I'm just not a good fan of the songs.  Many BB related releases over the past 40 years or so are riddled with production issues (which is a shame for a group known for almost perfectly produced material during their prime), but I think it's still pretty easy to tell if the songs are any good or not. 

Sorry, I'm really not being argumentative,  and this is solely in the spirit of discussion but......define good.

Objectively speaking you're really only dealing with form, melody, chord sequence and arrangement. Analytically, a lot of the songs on Love You are equal to any of his other best work when speaking in these terms. Really though it's all subjective, even analytically. You don't like the songs. That's fine. Can you describe why?

Please don't mention lyrics as that has nothing to do with music.

Personally, I don't think the melodies of most of the LY songs measure up to Brian's best work.  

And, I've tried many times to listen to that album, thinking I'm missing something, because it's held in very high regard by so many fans.  But, to my ears, that something just isn't there. 

Fair enough.

But do you not think The Night Was So Young on par with You Still Believe In Me melodically.

Or Solar System the equal of Please Let Me Wonder?

I've always thought it's the chord changes and key changes behind the melodies that really made BW's music transcendent.

But someone would have as much difficulty convincing me about any of the recent albums, so I empathise with your position.

The Night Was So Young is one of the few songs from LY that I gravitate to, but I wouldn't put it in the same league as You Still Believe In Me. 

Just as I wouldn't put Solar System in there with Please Let Me Wonder. 

But, like you said, as you'll likely never convince me that LY is a great achievement, I'd have a similar time trying to convince you how great TWGMTR is.  Diff'rent strokes. 

It's not necessarily the case that "Love You" has intensely twisty-turny melodies. But the chord changes are in some cases quite interesting and unique, and even when they aren't complex, they're immensely ear-catching.

So yeah, I could imagine applying a "Guess I'm Dumb/In the Back of My Mind" sort of arrangement to some of those "Love You" songs; they're similar enough. I can't imagine loving Brian's mid-60s "Today/Summer Days" material and then not just having your jaw hit the floor listening to at least a few of those "Love You" demos.

I would also say, if we're lumping together what was going on at the time of "Love You", then the "Adult Child" demos on that same demo tape are also pretty impressive. "It's Over Now" I *would put up against a good hunk of the 60s output, compositionally.

I'll admit there are some interesting chord changes, but to me, that still doesn't mean the songs are that great.

I also think it's unfair to compare almost anything Brian Wilson did what he did from 1963-1967. 

I love the songs, vocals and arrangements on LY, but then again I love Guided By Voices and that band's lo-fi, occasionally out-of-tune aesthetic.

LY belongs more to the indie, punk, and New Wave branch of pop than to the classic Beach Boys sound.

It's in the natural flow for people to read all posts in a thread, you're part of a community here and to expect your comments to just be skipped over by some is dichotomous to that. It is unrealistic to expect anyone with an opinion or reaction to sublimate it 100% of the time, and also defeats the whole idea of group conversation to ask that of anyone. Completely narcissistic and possibly sociopathic. Just sayin'....

Agreed, but thats exactly why I dont like the album. 

"Sociopathic" is over the top.

Maybe, but I said "possibly."  And it's partially a cumulative reaction to many years of reading his posts. How long have you been reading them?

I would say without a doubt Love You.

It stands on its own and nothing compares to it. I love every note of it and always thought of it as Brian's first solo album.

I can still remember the day I bought it shortly after release. The photographs of Brian and Dennis on the back cover really upset me and I didn't like the front cover at all.

I couldn't wait to get it home and spin the vinyl. It fascinated me endlessly. I played every day for two years.

You don't get many albums like that to the pound.

People either love it or hate it. I fall into the latter camp. Can't stand the amateurish production, the off-vocals, or the juvenine lyrics.
Smiley, on the other hand, has beautiful vocals, and some very won-wonderful musical ideas.

I love both Smiley Smile and Love You. Also love the unreleased Adult Child. But then, I always preferred "left-field" Brian, and wish there were so much more of that.

Most of my friends know how much I love the beach boys, so they are used to listening to Love You at my place. And luckily people seem to like it a lot too. The album is funny (johhny carson, solar system) and poignant (the night was so young) and it anticipates a lot of stuff musically. Also, there's that beautiful Patti Smith piece about it. In my opinion, it is the last of their great albums.

Smiley smile is another one of our favorites here. Love the lo-fi laid-back trippy psychedelicate intensely melodic feeling.

And, yes, also a great fan of the unreleased Adult Child - I'm with thorgil, who said he likes "left-field" Brian.

So, I don't know which albums are the most divisive, but I just don't listen to a lot of their post-77 music.

Quite long, lol. Usually I find them funny. But then I'm probably biased - see my signature. :)

Common misspelling.  But, the title of the BB last great album is "H-O-L-L-A-N-D" not "L-O-V-E Y-O-U."  That seems to happen a lot.  Must be autocorrect or something.

 ;D ::)

There's these really good glasses you can get for dyslexia now. Would you like me to PM you a link?

Talking about you're not sure.  Dyslexia don't have I. 

Do you know jiggy's fantastic work?
http://jiggy22.blogspot.it/2016/06/the-beach-boys-adultchild-alternate.html

Wow! I had been to his website once but didn't have the chance to explore it like I should. I actually had another version of Adult Child, the one with H.E.L.P. is on the way, but without Marilyn Rovell, Diane and Our team, for example. I'm specially fond of Life is for the living (a Broadway song in less than two minutes, and oh, those lyrics!), It's over now, Still I dream of it (one of my favorites songs ever) and that beautiful version of Deep Purple. Really love Brian's rendition of it, with that kind of husky voice - it's like he is giving the song back to its "common use", very heartfelt but not "oversung". It's great, thank you so much! It's so nice to find another fans of those albums! (sorry for my english, not a native speaker).

I'd say Keepin' the Summer Alive cause like, it's got a polar bear on the cover....I think....been awhile since I've looked....