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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Jim V. on May 10, 2017, 02:16:59 PM



Title: "(Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again": opinions nearly four years after release
Post by: Jim V. on May 10, 2017, 02:16:59 PM
Now I know this will probably be a very unpopular opinion, but I gotta say it...

"(Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again" isn't that great. It's a good song, but it was nowhere near as good as people like Stebbins, Doe and maybe even Edelson were talking up before it was finally released.

I don't even think it's a top-tier Dennis Wilson composition. Off the top of my head, I would take "River Song", "Little Bird", "Farewell My Friend", "Baby Blue" and a whole host of others over that song. It was talked up as this masterpiece that deserved to unseat "Surf's Up" as the final track on the album that became Surf's Up, and I just gotta say that the song that I have heard just doesn't bring the goods. I'm sorry.

If I recall, the vocal was talked up by Stebbins as Dennis' finest. To me, it's good but I don't think it's head and shoulders better than any of his other stuff. I think "Slip on Through" and "Forever" are both better vocally, and as far as conveying emotion, I think "River Song", "Angel Come Home" and "Baby Blue" top it.

By the way, I don't mean for this to be a *negative* thread per se. I'm just interested to see that now that we are nearly four years since the release of the song, whether people think it lived up to their expectations.


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 10, 2017, 03:05:39 PM
Sweetdudejim, I respect your opinion, but have to disagree from my standpoint.

When I first heard the song, I listened with really good Sennheiser studio headphones, in a chilled out home environment for full effect. I literally cried right then and there.

Yes, the song was built up a ton, and I had to try and divorce myself from expectation, and just accept that it would be a really good song, but not necessarily the end all/be all. It did not disappoint. It’s such a rich song full of emotion, tons of very delicate little touches, and a VERY powerful vocal that shows even more of what Dennis was capable of, but had only barely scratched the surface on getting recorded (before the damage on his voice set in).

Basically, listening to the song is an emotional experience for me, since it BLOWS MY MIND that a band that was in the very small group of contemporaries with The Beatles could have kept a song like this completely unreleased for 40 years, especially when they released so much drivel in the intervening years (mixed with some good stuff too, of course). ONLY with this band could this happen.

Listening to the song (at first listen, as well as now) really drives home one main thought to me: that Dennis Wilson was a massive talent who was ridiculously underappreciated – by both those around him, as well as the world at large - in his lifetime. In the history of the band, IMO it’s the biggest “what could have been”, maybe only 2nd or 3rd after SMiLE, because I truly think this song would have attained legendary status (not legendary for being a lost curio, but legendary for being a seriously RAD song that was progressive and pushed the band forward) had it been properly released on the Surf’s Up album, or on another BB album soon after.

I can only think of how history would have been different had it been released. I actually think things could have perhaps turned out differently in some respects, because I think it's a game-changer type of song.


Title: Re: \
Post by: beacharg on May 10, 2017, 03:29:24 PM
I barely participate here, but will do as I was thinking just the same (or kinda) a few days ago.

I do agree that the song has not "aged" well in these last 4 years (at least for me). Don't get me wrong either, it's very good! But it was not AS good (nearly perfection) as they where selling. I almost stopped listening to it, after the excitement of its release went away it desapeared from my "favourites" BB' songs list. There are plenty of way better songs than this one, even Dennis solo songs.

That being said, I do think that it would have been great to have it on Surf's up; I can think of 3 songs that could have replaced.


Title: Re: \
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 10, 2017, 03:30:26 PM
Great song but the hype of it got too much here.


Title: Re: \
Post by: kermit27 on May 10, 2017, 04:31:16 PM
I didn't buy into the hype, and I wasn't expecting all that much.

But I love it.  I really do.  Top-tier Dennis for me, easily.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Mr Fulton on May 10, 2017, 04:42:28 PM
it's one of Dennis Wilson's best songs, absolutely amazing and stunning, it's a crime that it took this long to get a release, it should have been released in 1993 on the Good Vibrations set. Dennis also has another very pretty song still in the vaults called Behold The Night which absolutely needs to come out and also Carry Me Home


Title: Re: \
Post by: Mr Fulton on May 10, 2017, 04:43:53 PM
I barely participate here, but will do as I was thinking just the same (or kinda) a few days ago.

I do agree that the song has not "aged" well in these last 4 years (at least for me). Don't get me wrong either, it's very good! But it was not AS good (nearly perfection) as they where selling. I almost stopped listening to it, after the excitement of its release went away it desapeared from my "favourites" BB' songs list. There are plenty of way better songs than this one, even Dennis solo songs.

That being said, I do think that it would have been great to have it on Surf's up; I can think of 3 songs that could have replaced.

i didn't need to replace anything, just add that and 4th Of July


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on May 10, 2017, 04:53:29 PM
Quote
When I first heard the song, I listened with really good Sennheiser studio headphones
I listened with Beats by Dr. Dre. The point is?..

It is neither great nor good. But definitely vocally very good. Dennis' voice didn't get husky yet. If he sang as he did in the late 70s, it would be epic fail.


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 10, 2017, 04:58:09 PM
Quote
When I first heard the song, I listened with really good Sennheiser studio headphones
I listened with Beats by Dr. Dre. The point is?..

It is neither great nor good. But definitely vocally very good. Dennis' voice didn't get husky yet. If he sang as he did in the late 70s, it would be epic fail.

Geez, I'm just telling the story with some detail so the listener can better paint a mental picture.

The point is that it makes a difference. The reason to listen with really good headphones or speakers (especially for the first time listening to a given song) is that possibly the song will be imprinted on the listener with a greater emotional impact, if the song itself has the goods, of course. I will always treasure my memory of hearing that song with virgin ears.

I happen think headphone listening can be a HUGE factor (especially with top equipment) in how much someone can appreciate a song. I'm regularly blown away by intricacies that I notice in songs, BB or otherwise, that would otherwise go unnoticed were it not for these headphones.

I should add that the very first time I heard the songs from TWGMTR, I listened on the same headphones (I seem to recall that a few of them leaked out before the album was released)... and I had the exact opposite experience. Disappointment, and frankly shock, at the Autotuned production. Not to get negative, just being honest at how much further and deeper a listener can get into a song (be it for better or worse), particularly on a first-time listen, with headphones... and perhaps a bong hit or two.


Title: Re: \
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 10, 2017, 05:12:25 PM
SS is worth many relaxing listens...


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on May 10, 2017, 05:21:47 PM
Quote
The point is that it makes a difference. The reason to listen with really good headphones or speakers (especially for the first time listening to a given song) is that possibly the song will be imprinted on the listener with a greater emotional impact, if the song itself has the goods, of course.
Yes sure, there is difference. But as you say, to paraphrase, if the song is bad, I wouldn't care less what headphones I listen it with; generally, I find the means of listening 2ndary. If they're convenient to ears (like ear buds), I can hear the vocals & instruments - that's about it for me.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Lee Marshall on May 10, 2017, 05:33:42 PM
I was never privy to the hype.  I just heard it when I heard it and I liked it immediately.  It's a darned site better than a LOT of songs which made it to BB's vinyl after Holland...like more than 3/4 of them.


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 10, 2017, 05:36:36 PM
Quote
The point is that it makes a difference. The reason to listen with really good headphones or speakers (especially for the first time listening to a given song) is that possibly the song will be imprinted on the listener with a greater emotional impact, if the song itself has the goods, of course.
Yes sure, there is difference. But as you say, to paraphrase, if the song is bad, I wouldn't care less what headphones I listen it with; generally, I find the means of listening 2ndary. If they're convenient to ears (like ear buds), I can hear the vocals & instruments - that's about it for me.

Right on, different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm even down to listen to songs that I don't generally like very much (stuff like SIP material) on high quality headphones, just to be able to better dissect the songs. There might be a cool part or two that is brought to light that might make the song a little bit better, you never know. With these headphones, it's closer to being inside the song, cheesy as this description may sound. Carl's solo albums, which I'd brushed off years ago, have gained some newfound love from me, partly due to more closely examining the exquisite vocal performances on these headphones.

Not to derail the thread, but just as an aside, the first time I listened to BB material after I'd upgraded from normal ear buds to these headphones was a major, major difference in terms of newly appreciating the songs a LOT more.  Funny enough, the first song I listened to after purchasing them was also a Denny tune, River Song from POB.

So maybe because I had what I'd term as an optimal listening experience listening to WIBNTLA, I had (and retain) a higher opinion of it than if I had listened to it more casually, or even simply on decent, but lesser, equipment. Either way, I'll stand behind my opinion that it's a rad song which *really* deserved release in its day.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Jon Stebbins on May 10, 2017, 06:06:16 PM
I still would count it as Dennis' best vocal, as I did however many years ago when I first heard it (1999 Eddie? Alan?). His voice is very pure and powerful, and absolutely in it's peak form. Hearing it now just frustrates me that there aren't more from him while that vocal range was at his disposal.

Definitely not his best composition or production, those came later...but it is clearly a shame it didn't see a 1971 release.


Title: Re: \
Post by: 18thofMay on May 10, 2017, 06:31:48 PM
I still would count it as Dennis' best vocal, as I did however many years ago when I first heard it (1999 Eddie? Alan?). His voice is very pure and powerful, and absolutely in it's peak form. Hearing it now just frustrates me that there aren't more from him while that vocal range was at his disposal.

Definitely not his best composition or production, those came later...but it is clearly a shame it didn't see a 1971 release.
I was typing, but Jon sums it up for me.


Title: Re: \
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on May 10, 2017, 06:51:36 PM
I didn't buy into the hype, and I wasn't expecting all that much.

But I love it.  I really do.  Top-tier Dennis for me, easily.

My thoughts to the letter. Fantastic song by Dennis and right up there with Brian and Carl's efforts.


Title: Re: \
Post by: JK on May 11, 2017, 02:15:06 AM
I barely participate here

What a strange way to begin a post.

Anyway, I just revisited "WIBNT(LA)" and it sounded as wonderful and as heartbreaking as it did the first time I heard it.

As it happens, Adam, Evie and company do a great cover version that I'm sure Dennis would have loved:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt-blhfc_jM


Title: Re: \
Post by: Don Malcolm on May 11, 2017, 04:20:40 AM
One of the biggest mysteries in the BB's misterioso career is why WIBNTLA didn't get any consideration for release on what became CATP. For goodness sakes, the song is sitting there just waiting to lead off Side Two. Could it have become a dominant song on the FM stations of that era? Absolutely.

Much momentum was lost with a disjointed-sounding CATP pitted in a dispiriting comparison with PET SOUNDS. Who to blame for that? The BBs? Warner Brothers? WIBNTLA wouldn't have solved all of the problems (they would've had to ditch such a lame-brained marketing approach and reissue PS on its own) but putting it in place of Make It Good really does make CATP into a much stronger collection.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 11, 2017, 06:42:04 AM
I dunno, I think people are confusing zeal in pushing for a release of the song with saying the song is the best song ever.

Is the track one of the best BB tracks of all time? I wouldn't say it's in my Top 25 or 50 or anything.

Up to the point it was released, I think a strong argument could be made that it was one of the best songs/recordings in the BB catalog that hadn't been released. And it's for *THAT* reason that the enthusiasm and zeal shown in arguing for its release was evident.

When you have a really good song in the vault that is deserving of a release, are you going to highlight that it isn't literally the best thing they ever did? Of course not. You're going to stress its strong points. The Dennis lead vocal. The fact that such a good song is unreleased. And so on.

What's the alternative?

"Dear Capitol Records and Brother Records: Even though it may not be my favorite song, and even though Dennis wrote some better songs in his lifetime, and even if I feel some observers are overrating it, could you please release this song?"

I think all of the characterizations of this song were fine and appropriate. Can anyone produce quotes from Stebbins saying it's the best song of all time or something? I don't recall anything that hyperbolic. It was more like "Hey, this is a really good song, and Dennis's lead is amazing, and there isn't exactly an overabundance of archival Dennis material out there, especially from this era, so I hope it gets released."

The track is still one of the standout unreleased tracks on the MIC set. Sorry to folks who prefer the live version of "Summer in Paradise" or the spine-tingling cover of "Da Doo Ron Ron."

(Note: I don't dislike those other tracks either and in fact probably appreciate KTSA outtakes more than many fans out there.)


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 11, 2017, 06:50:30 AM
Quote
When I first heard the song, I listened with really good Sennheiser studio headphones
I listened with Beats by Dr. Dre. The point is?..

It is neither great nor good. But definitely vocally very good. Dennis' voice didn't get husky yet. If he sang as he did in the late 70s, it would be epic fail.

You wouldn't even categorize the song as "good?" I'm willing to say some tracks from KTSA and MIU and even a couple from SIP are "good", so I can't imagine what sort of bar exists to not call WIBNTLA as at least "good."

It's not the greatest of any category in the BB catalog, but to relegate it to "meh" status because people were so enthusiastic to see its release is going overboard in my opinion.

I'm also pretty sure that *before* the song was released people were already wondering out loud if the "hype" was going to lead to some sort of letdown. But again, I think the "hype" was more about enthusiasm in getting the song released rather than saying the song was the best thing they ever did, etc.

Want to talk about letdowns on the MIC set? I'd say the 1974 version of "California Feelin'" veers much closer to that category. That specific version of the song had been "legendary" for *several decades.*

If we want to expand the discussion to stuff trumpeted highly that then leaked out unofficially, their take on "Battle Hymn of the Republic" may take the cake on that one.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Ang Jones on May 11, 2017, 07:19:31 AM
I like it and I'm glad it was released but the one that really deserved all the hype was IMO My Love Lives On.  To me this is by far the better song and we'd heard nothing about it in advance. My Love Lives On was like a message from beyond from Dennis - one person told me he'd been listening on headphones whilst out running and had to sit down because he was so moved by the music.


Title: Re: \
Post by: bluesno1fann on May 11, 2017, 07:35:12 AM
I think it certainly lived up to expectations, in that it blows you away. But to be perfectly honest it's largely on the basis of the incredible vocals by Dennis - probably his peak as a vocalist. I also really dig the groovy flute jam in the coda. That said, it's not one of those songs you can really listen to over and over again without getting sick of, and lyrically it's not as touching as Forever or has the aura of tragedy as on much of what is on POB. Musically it could have done with more work and some tweaking with the overall structure. The song unquestionably had the potential of being a stone cold classic in the upper echelons of The Beach Boys' catalogue, and I'm sure it would have been if more time and effort had been put in the development of this song. Unfortunately it falls short, and the song - much like the composer himself - should be relegated to the "what if?" category in the grand scheme of things.

But despite it all, I'm inclined towards admitting that as it is (despite its flaws), it is a very moving performance, and that I would still recommend people to give it a listen. Certainly it deserves a place as a bonus track on any Surf's Up reissue.


Title: Re: \
Post by: MarcellaHasDirtyFeet on May 11, 2017, 08:17:13 AM
I love this song. It sets a forlorn mood from the very beginning, with the flutes and keys and a wistful-sounding Dennis, but then it grows majestic as Dennis opens up with "Whoever said...". . The BB harmonies provide a beautiful, lush background. It peaks and softens, peaks again and we're back to the verse After another go 'round, we're treated to the guitar break-- evocative, again-- and Dennis' final chorus before the unbelievably funky flute outro, which just kicks so much ass that I'm left wanting more, the low voices chanting "Live again" as it fades.

Another Dennis masterpiece, up there with the best of his work imo. It's not brilliant musically, but the song takes you throughout a range of emotion, and that's important, too. Dennis' vocals are really stellar, and I think it's his best vocal work from when he still had his youthful voice. I just heard this on shuffle in the car the other day, and I was completely captivated for the duration of the song. I think about it a lot, actually, and always want it to come up on shuffle.

My wife is not a BB fan (except via osmosis), and this song really got her attention when it was released. She loves it too, and I chalk that up to the delivery of the chorus. It's impossible not to feel Dennis' emotion in the song.

I now think it's just as amazing as I did when it was released. It should have been released in the 1970s, although it would have been just as criminally underappreciated as the rest of the band's work during this period.


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 11, 2017, 10:12:06 AM
One of the biggest mysteries in the BB's misterioso career is why WIBNTLA didn't get any consideration for release on what became CATP. For goodness sakes, the song is sitting there just waiting to lead off Side Two. Could it have become a dominant song on the FM stations of that era? Absolutely.

Much momentum was lost with a disjointed-sounding CATP pitted in a dispiriting comparison with PET SOUNDS. Who to blame for that? The BBs? Warner Brothers? WIBNTLA wouldn't have solved all of the problems (they would've had to ditch such a lame-brained marketing approach and reissue PS on its own) but putting it in place of Make It Good really does make CATP into a much stronger collection.


I completely agree. But I think I recall reading on this board that perhaps one reason why the song didn't come out (on a subsequent BB studio album soon after) was that the song's content was possibly about a breakup, or feelings about one of Dennis' true loves, and that it might have been too painful for him to revisit the song with those feelings it stirred up?


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 11, 2017, 10:22:57 AM
It's interesting how Denny was the first person in the band to repurpose the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" lyric on a subsequent song post-1966, which was a very famous title/line for them to be associated with. Considering that it's Mike who's always known for doing references to old BB song titles/lyrics on subsequent material.

Mike cheesily did it again with the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" lyric on Summer in Paradise (the song)... and if memory serves, the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" lyric might have been shoehorned awkwardly into yet another Mike-centric tune also?

But Denny did it first and best, and seamlessly, in a manner that didn't come off in the slightest as being any kind of reto/kitsch.

Question for everyone: If WIBNTLA had seen release in its time... does anyone think it could have been released as a single? And if so, would the fact that "Wouldn't It Be Nice" was part of the title have potentially caused any confusion to fans/listeners/DJs? Or might that actually have *helped* the song, being as it would have at least on paper, upon seeing the song title, reminded the fan/listener/DJ of The BBs at their creative heights during Pet Sounds?

One more question: when Stanley Shapiro (or Denny) came up with the song title/lyric, I wonder how quickly it was realized by them that this was a direct link to the famous 1966 BB song, and if this was in any way an intentional reference/callback, almost like a sequel of sorts. Or if that was totally accidental, and noticed after they had gotten a ways into lyric writing. Songwriters will sometimes rehash a lyric or melody without realizing they are unintentionally replicating another song from their catalog.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Howie Edelson on May 11, 2017, 11:17:55 AM
I never understood doing the whole, "This isn't as good as it was supposed to be." Y'know? Dig what you wanna dig. I think EVERY posthumous DW song that's seen the light of day is a gift. I also don't think that the "hype" was any bigger for that song than, say, "Carry Me Home." The fact of the matter is that it IS that good and it IS that important. I remember marveling with Stebbins about how MODERN (read: timeless) that B-section was. We were amazed at how something so beautiful and unique (that INSANELY brave vocal, that top melody line) hadn't happened until then -- and hasn't since. It remains cutting edge today. Nobody sings like that. And it it retains its power because he was at the first of several tops of his game -- and it was all f ucking power. The voice, the composition -- it happened at the moment when he was loved more than he ever was for the rest of his life -- and his life was as good as it would ever be RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT.

True Health.

WIBNTLA is the fingerprint and soundtrack to as sane and good as it ever got for this guy. It's major, on like, 19 levels. If feel dumb even trying to defend it.


Title: Re: \
Post by: jiggy22 on May 11, 2017, 11:53:42 AM
I didn't become a Beach Boys until late 2014, so I never had to deal with the hype surrounding the "mysteriousness" of the track prior to its release. I guess its for the best, as I have a tendency to hype these kind of "unreleased/unheard" tracks way out of proportion (Brian's "Just an Imitation" and the Beatles' "Carnival of Light" come to mind). With that said, WIBNTLA is my all-time favorite Dennis track, and my fourth-favorite Beach Boys song ever (behind IJWMFTT, Til I Die, and Surf's Up). The shelving of WIBNTLA and SMiLE have forever cemented the Beach Boys as THE group with the biggest lost potential. Jack was right, they blew it...


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 11, 2017, 12:08:29 PM
I never understood doing the whole, "This isn't as good as it was supposed to be." Y'know? Dig what you wanna dig. I think EVERY posthumous DW song that's seen the light of day is a gift. I also don't think that the "hype" was any bigger for that song than, say, "Carry Me Home." The fact of the matter is that it IS that good and it IS that important. I remember marveling with Stebbins about how MODERN (read: timeless) that B-section was. We were amazed at how something so beautiful and unique (that INSANELY brave vocal, that top melody line) hadn't happened until then -- and hasn't since. It remains cutting edge today. Nobody sings like that. And it it retains its power because he was at the first of several tops of his game -- and it was all f ucking power. The voice, the composition -- it happened at the moment when he was loved more than he ever was for the rest of his life -- and his life was as good as it would ever be RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT.

True Health.

WIBNTLA is the fingerprint and soundtrack to as sane and good as it ever got for this guy. It's major, on like, 19 levels. If feel dumb even trying to defend it.


+1


Title: Re: \
Post by: urbanite on May 11, 2017, 12:28:06 PM
 I like the song, the lead vocal and background vocals are very good.  I can't stand the line in the song, "high up on a hill, making love again."


Title: Re: \
Post by: doc smiley on May 11, 2017, 04:22:38 PM
it's one of Dennis Wilson's best songs, absolutely amazing and stunning, it's a crime that it took this long to get a release, it should have been released in 1993 on the Good Vibrations set. Dennis also has another very pretty song still in the vaults called Behold The Night which absolutely needs to come out and also Carry Me Home

OK OK  as no one else has followed up on this... how about "Behold The Night" ??? care to talk about this one... never heard it, know it was supposed to be on Dennis' 1971 solo LP that never happened.. never heard anyone talk about before...

Details man, Details!!


Title: Re: \
Post by: Mr Fulton on May 11, 2017, 04:44:17 PM
I have Behold The Night but I understand it's very rare and only a few people have it so I won't be leaking it onto YouTube because I dont wanna get in trouble or giving it to anybody, all i'll say is it's beautiful and typical Dennis


Title: Re: \
Post by: Lee Marshall on May 11, 2017, 05:19:36 PM
I can't stand the line in the song, "high up on a hill, making love again."

You have a fear of heights? ???


Title: Re: \
Post by: ? on May 11, 2017, 06:51:31 PM
My opinion hasn't changed from when I first heard it:

The production is great and the lead is a career best vocal contender for Dennis.  That said, I'm not particularly impressed with the song.  It's nowhere near as good as most of his work was IMO.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Rick5150 on May 12, 2017, 02:44:49 AM
I can't stand the line in the song, "high up on a hill, making love again."

You have a fear of heights? ???

Haha, I love the song and could care less if the lyrics were "in a ditch behind a dumpster, making love again".


Title: Re: \
Post by: JK on May 12, 2017, 03:04:31 AM
I can't stand the line in the song, "high up on a hill, making love again."

You have a fear of heights? ???

Haha, I love the song and could care less if the lyrics were "in a ditch behind a dumpster, making love again".

:lol
+1


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 12, 2017, 06:13:29 AM
I like the song, the lead vocal and background vocals are very good.  I can't stand the line in the song, "high up on a hill, making love again."

The Beach Boys, collectively and solo, have a pretty strong catalog of iffy nad/or wonky lyrics. I can't imagine how that line is particularly problematic. I guess one could argue it's a bit hippy-dippy or something. But as Howie said, it's actually uplifting to know Dennis was at a peak in life and well-being, and a line like that reinforces that. What else should he have said? "High on a hill, f****ing again?"

I've always found it more undercutting when we have to continually refer to excellent potential Dennis solo material under *asinine* titles like "Poops" and "Hubba Hubba." Want someone to take Dennis's solo stuff seriously? Maybe not even mentioning the possibility of releasing it as "Dennis Wilson Poops" is a good place to start.

That all being said, we all have weird pet peeve lyrics that bug us. Sometimes it's more of a phonetic sort of thing, or how the lyric sounds, that's more problematic than the actual content. I'd say Brian's lyrics on "Sherry She Needs Me", the infamous "Sherry don't hate her guts" line, is a good example. It contextually actually makes total sense, and is probably how the "speaker" of the song might say it, but it just sort of *sounds* odd when sung in a song like that.

Who was it here who was super annoyed by the opening line to Al's "Don't Fight the Sea", the "I was out in a boat, that was gently afloat" line? I didn't find that line particularly extra egregious, but it was kind of funny and understandable enough that someone else was so annoyed by it.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 12, 2017, 06:23:07 AM
I didn't become a Beach Boys until late 2014, so I never had to deal with the hype surrounding the "mysteriousness" of the track prior to its release. I guess its for the best, as I have a tendency to hype these kind of "unreleased/unheard" tracks way out of proportion (Brian's "Just an Imitation" and the Beatles' "Carnival of Light" come to mind). With that said, WIBNTLA is my all-time favorite Dennis track, and my fourth-favorite Beach Boys song ever (behind IJWMFTT, Til I Die, and Surf's Up). The shelving of WIBNTLA and SMiLE have forever cemented the Beach Boys as THE group with the biggest lost potential. Jack was right, they blew it...

It's worth noting though, that "Just an Imitation" and "Carnival of Light" are two pretty different cases. In the case of the former, we have very little info on the song at all, right? Vaguely apocryphal stories about whether a recording could even still exist.

Whereas, "Carnival of Light" is a known quantity that people have heard, and has been described in some fair detail by folks like Mark Lewisohn. I've never understood the clamor for "Carnival of Light" going all the way back to the "Anthology" era where some fans lobbied to jettison like 10 or 15 other tracks to make room for it, even when we have some pretty strong indications that if or when the song is ever released, it will ultimately end up being skipped about as often as fans skip "Revolution 9" when listening to the White Album. The only truly annoying thing about the upcoming "Sgt. Pepper" deluxe boxed set is reading fans moan and groan about "Carnival of Light" not being included, as if the band running through outtakes of the other 13-15 *songs* on the set isn't about *ten kajillion* times more interesting.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Matt H on May 12, 2017, 06:30:07 AM
I have Behold The Night but I understand it's very rare and only a few people have it so I won't be leaking it onto YouTube because I dont wanna get in trouble or giving it to anybody, all i'll say is it's beautiful and typical Dennis

Is it a ballad or a rocker?


Title: Re: \
Post by: B.E. on May 12, 2017, 06:49:06 AM
I have Behold The Night but I understand it's very rare and only a few people have it so I won't be leaking it onto YouTube because I dont wanna get in trouble or giving it to anybody, all i'll say is it's beautiful and typical Dennis

Is it a ballad or a rocker?

And how complete is it? Does it sound fully produced and ready for release? Or is it a piano demo?

Edit: Found this description from Alan Boyd, "BEHOLD THE NIGHT was recorded at the same session, 7/7/71.  It's short, sweet, and very, very pretty. "Moon's out tonight, tonight I know you will behold the night, mmmmm, it's still...." http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,277.msg27739.html#msg27739


Title: Re: \
Post by: kermit27 on May 12, 2017, 07:16:58 AM
I like the song, the lead vocal and background vocals are very good.  I can't stand the line in the song, "high up on a hill, making love again."


Who was it here who was super annoyed by the opening line to Al's "Don't Fight the Sea", the "I was out in a boat, that was gently afloat" line? I didn't find that line particularly extra egregious, but it was kind of funny and understandable enough that someone else was so annoyed by it.

Ah... But that's a cover.  I agree that it is still a bad line, though.


Title: Re: \
Post by: B.E. on May 12, 2017, 09:29:11 AM
...the infamous "Sherry don't hate her guts" line...

Might be my favorite line in the song! The lyrics are so naive. But they are honest. To me, it's makes them memorable.

As for WIBNTLA, I'm also not a big fan of the line "high up on a hill, making love again", but that's okay. I don't hate it. It fits the song. I love everything else, especially the line "whoever said the (very) first lie" and the lines about knowing it's okay to cry (men and women).

I truly don't understand how this wasn't released until MiC. It doesn't make sense. I can almost understand waiting to release Carry Me Home, but that too should have been released by now. I think WIBNTLA is a GREAT song (that should have been released in the early 70s) and I feel exactly the same about it now as I did in 2013 when I first heard it.

Edit: Is it my favorite Dennis song? No, but I think it's better than most of the BBs material of that period. Therefore, I was not let down upon its release.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Bicyclerider on May 12, 2017, 10:36:14 AM
I still would count it as Dennis' best vocal, as I did however many years ago when I first heard it (1999 Eddie? Alan?). His voice is very pure and powerful, and absolutely in it's peak form. Hearing it now just frustrates me that there aren't more from him while that vocal range was at his disposal.

Definitely not his best composition or production, those came later...but it is clearly a shame it didn't see a 1971 release.

I find it curious and a little disappointing that at this time that Dennis's vocals were at their peak, he was giving away vocals on his songs - like Fourth of July, and then later with Steamboat and Only With You and It's a New Day (perhaps past his best shape voice but nevertheless so much better than later)


Title: Re: \
Post by: B.E. on May 12, 2017, 10:52:58 AM
I still would count it as Dennis' best vocal, as I did however many years ago when I first heard it (1999 Eddie? Alan?). His voice is very pure and powerful, and absolutely in it's peak form. Hearing it now just frustrates me that there aren't more from him while that vocal range was at his disposal.

Definitely not his best composition or production, those came later...but it is clearly a shame it didn't see a 1971 release.

I find it curious and a little disappointing that at this time that Dennis's vocals were at their peak, he was giving away vocals on his songs - like Fourth of July, and then later with Steamboat and Only With You and It's a New Day (perhaps past his best shape voice but nevertheless so much better than later)

I understand it from the point of view that the main songwriter of a group such as the BBs needs to divvy up leads for the benefit of the group. Also, apparently, Dennis simply liked Carl's voice singing his songs. That said, it is very disappointing to me that Dennis doesn't have a single lead vocal on Surfs Up, Holland, In Concert, and KTSA. Furthermore, songs like Fourth of July and I've Got A Friend were never finished. In the end, Dennis couldn't have known that his voice would change in 1974 and that he'd really lose it by the early 80s. It's just a shame that the group didn't appreciate and support his work more, particularly in the early-mid 70s when he was quite prolific (and Brian wasn't).


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 12, 2017, 11:06:11 AM


I truly don't understand how this wasn't released until MiC. It doesn't make sense. I can almost understand waiting to release Carry Me Home, but that too should have been released by now. I think WIBNTLA is a GREAT song (that should have been released in the early 70s) and I feel exactly the same about it now as I did in 2013 when I first heard it.

Edit: Is it my favorite Dennis song? No, but I think it's better than most of the BBs material of that period. Therefore, I was not let down upon its release.

Sometimes I almost wonder if this stuff wasn't (and in the case of Carry Me Home currently still isn't) released for all this time because perhaps for some time, some band members might actually have been embarrassed to reconcile the undeniable fact of how much the band royally f*cked up by not releasing this stuff MUCH sooner. Releasing these songs - and having them get heaps of praise - might only have magnified that embarrassment, not to mention increasing Denny's legend, in the eyes of fans, and perhaps make the bandmates feel even worse.

I mean, it's practically beyond belief that these songs spent decades in the can, considering the quality of the material; another case of "this could only happen with The Beach Boys". I would tend to think the decision could be considered highly regrettable in hindsight (and thus an embarrassing mistake that perhaps they didn't want to be reminded of) by some of the band members. Just a theory.

I give Al, for example, props for talking about regretting that Denny wasn't appreciated enough/taken more seriously on a spoken word track on the Hawthorne, CA CD. Maybe it took a certain distance from Denny's lifetime for some band members to want to go anywhere near the emotions that it might bring by releasing these songs, with the realization that the public would realize what a mindblowing gaffe it was to not release them, compounded by the even more mindblowing gaffe of instead choosing to release all sorts of substandard dreck in place of these tracks in the intervening years (while these tracks languished in the can).

As a fan, I've certainly thought about how, if Denny had gotten more recognition and respect as an artist in his lifetime - perhaps in part due to these tracks, had they seen release and success on BB studio albums  -  how maybe, just maybe, history could have turned out differently for him. If that thought even remotely crossed the minds of any band members - and I'd be surprised if it didn't at some point - I could see how the band might have avoided these tracks for years. It's just easier that way. Avoidance is a powerful drug.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 12, 2017, 11:29:57 AM

Sometimes I almost wonder if this stuff wasn't (and in the case of Carry Me Home currently still isn't) released for all this time because perhaps for some time, some band members might actually have been embarrassed to reconcile the undeniable fact of how much the band royally f*cked up by not releasing this stuff MUCH sooner. Releasing these songs - and having them get heaps of praise - might only have magnified that embarrassment, not to mention increasing Denny's legend, in the eyes of fans, and perhaps make the bandmates feel even worse.


The band have always been notoriously difficult about "Brother era" unreleased tracks, although over the course of 20 years they obviously okayed a fair amount of the tracks spread across numerous releases.

It's probably one of the reasons something like "Hawthorne, CA" was easier to push through in 2001 compared to a 2-CD "Brother Rarities" sort of compilation.

In the specific case of WIBNTLA, as I'm sure most folks here remember, it was slated to be included on the 2007 "Warmth of the Sun" compilation, making it all the way to test pressings. I believe it was implied that a member of the band vetoed the track on that particular compilation.

Then of course only a year or two before MIC came out, a test pressing with the track was sold on eBay and a big thread on this board resulted from the buyer trying to strategize about what to do with it. I suppose that might have contributed to the "reputation" on this board of the track being so epic.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 12, 2017, 11:31:56 AM
That said, it is very disappointing to me that Dennis doesn't have a single lead vocal on Surfs Up, Holland, In Concert, and KTSA.

Well, as we all know, he doesn't have a lead on KTSA largely because he wasn't involved in the album much at all.

Though, every time in the 70s and 80s when they considered raiding the vaults for "old" stuff to put on "new" albums, one can always go back to the *DOZENS* of amazing tracks in the archives that they passed up.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 12, 2017, 11:34:39 AM
I still would count it as Dennis' best vocal, as I did however many years ago when I first heard it (1999 Eddie? Alan?). His voice is very pure and powerful, and absolutely in it's peak form. Hearing it now just frustrates me that there aren't more from him while that vocal range was at his disposal.

Definitely not his best composition or production, those came later...but it is clearly a shame it didn't see a 1971 release.

I find it curious and a little disappointing that at this time that Dennis's vocals were at their peak, he was giving away vocals on his songs - like Fourth of July, and then later with Steamboat and Only With You and It's a New Day (perhaps past his best shape voice but nevertheless so much better than later)

While I would certainly love to hear Dennis vocals on those songs (and indeed we got his later solo version of "Only With You"), and in particular I could imagine his "I'm Going Your Way" voice singing "It's a New Day", as both are somewhat similar.

But I can't imagine Dennis could have bettered Carl's vocals on "4th of July" and "Only With You." And it's to Dennis's credit that he (rightly in my opinion) would have picked the best vocalist to sing the song instead of trying to use some other criteria (who wrote it, who didn't have "enough" leads already, etc.) to pick the lead vocalist out.


Title: Re: \
Post by: KDS on May 12, 2017, 05:39:27 PM
Relatively speaking, Im fairly new to BB fandom, so I didnt experience the build up and legend of WIBNTLA, but I think its a terrific song, and maybe Dennis's finest recorded lead vocal.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Needleinthehay on May 12, 2017, 09:06:51 PM
I read an interview (forgot who said it) that said the reason dennis didnt have more songs come out sooner was all band politics. He didnt have anyone to fight for his songs to be put on albums  and the other guys didnt have anything to gain by putting his songs on instead of theirs.


Title: Re: \
Post by: KDS on May 12, 2017, 09:11:48 PM
I read an interview (forgot who said it) that said the reason dennis didnt have more songs come out sooner was all band politics. He didnt have anyone to fight for his songs to be put on albums  and the other guys didnt have anything to gain by putting his songs on instead of theirs.

Another example of a band that couldnt stop shooting itself in the foot.  WIBNTLA sits on a shelf for 40 years while Take a Load Off Your Feet gets a proper release.


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on May 12, 2017, 10:42:57 PM
I still would count it as Dennis' best vocal, as I did however many years ago when I first heard it (1999 Eddie? Alan?). His voice is very pure and powerful, and absolutely in it's peak form. Hearing it now just frustrates me that there aren't more from him while that vocal range was at his disposal.
It sure is Top 5 Dennis vocal. Agree, too bad he didn't keep this voice.


You wouldn't even categorize the song as "good?" I'm willing to say some tracks from KTSA and MIU and even a couple from SIP are "good", so I can't imagine what sort of bar exists to not call WIBNTLA as at least "good."

It's not the greatest of any category in the BB catalog, but to relegate it to "meh" status because people were so enthusiastic to see its release is going overboard in my opinion.
I didn't mention hype. When the song was talk of town, I as everybody was curious "What could it sound like?". Dennis not being favorite songwriter/ vocalist, my expectations were low. When we got to hear it, the single thing I liked about it was the lead vocal. To repeat, it's very good vocal. Few nice musical ideas.    But it's a bit downer. I like joyful/ goofy/ upbeat stuff - "Feet", "All Summer Long", "It's Tryin' To Say". "Got to Know the Woman" & "San Miguel" may be the closest to Dennis writing really upbeat material. His songs tend to be sentimental, melancholic which isn't to my taste. WIBNTLA is rather tasteful in that regard but still wouldn't say it's good.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Dove Nested Towers on May 14, 2017, 04:36:28 AM
I thought it was utterly majestic and not a letdown by any means when it finally saw release (and still think so), I'll never forget that day. Now if we can only get our hands on the I've Got A Friend instrumental track....


Title: Re: \
Post by: Peter Reum on May 14, 2017, 04:58:46 PM
A beautiful song from one of Dennis's best writing years


Title: Re: \
Post by: Emdeeh on May 15, 2017, 05:59:09 AM
Love it and still listen to it regularly.


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 15, 2017, 06:20:35 AM
It should be noted that theoretically not fighting for a Dennis song on a given album due to politics (e.g. someone trying to get *their* song on the album instead of Dennis's) and good old fashioned lack of objectivity in realizing which material sucks and which is good are two *separate* things. Both surely went on. But it's not as if every single Dennis song that went unreleased was stifled because everybody else in the band was blocking Dennis tracks. Dennis also may or may not have pushed for a given song at a given time, and sometimes they may have skipped a Dennis song not out of ego but rather out of bad musical decisions.

It's mind-blowing how much quality Dennis material went unreleased, and the material had numerous strikes against it to the point it's also kind of surprising that he got as much released as he did. Sometimes other egos *were* at play, sometimes the band just mad bad or weird artistic decisions, sometimes Dennis didn't push his material or "pulled" his material from consideration, and eventually Dennis not having his s**t together probably didn't help things either.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Don Malcolm on May 15, 2017, 10:48:08 AM
I'm still baffled by the decisions made in the time between the reception of SURF's UP and the release of CATP/PS. A lot of turmoil and changes (Blondie and Ricky added in part to offset Dennis' hand injury; the push by Carl and Jack for a more rock'n'roll direction which hastened Bruce's departure; Steve Desper jumping ship when Mike decided to toss his weight around and have all TM-vetted support staff; Brian variously distracted by side projects and personal issues) led to a truly strange LP. Added to that, the decision (presumably by WB) to package it with PS, a juxtaposition that would make almost any LP look underwhelming by comparison.

Looking at AGD's session listings, it appears that the decision to put "Make It Good" and "Cuddle Up" in the CATP lineup was late in the game (April, after just about everything else had been completed). These tracks are at odds with the rest of the LP, so one gets the sense that this was a last-ditch effort to finish the record--but it can't help but bring up the question concerning WIBNTLA. What caused it to be bypassed at the time? Who was primarily responsible? How could anyone have objectively decided that "Make It Good" was more releasable than WIBNTLA? Was the friction still palpable over how it had been left off SURF'S UP? There must have been some strange dysfunctional dynamics at work during this time frame that, absent a time machine, we are never going to fully understand.

The results, however, were as plain as the nose on your face. CATP got withering reviews; "Mess of Help" didn't register as a BB song to those who'd just heard the harmonizing that dominated SURF'S UP and received a giant WTF; "Marcella" never gained traction. None of the remaining tracks released on CATP brought anything to the table radio-wise. But WIBNTLA would've had more than a shot as an FM track. It could have given the BBs what they so desperately needed at the time--a song somewhere in the range of a hit that wasn't written by Brian. A song that shifted the ground in a way that still had a bridge back to their established sound. Apparently no one saw that in the song at the time...


Title: Re: \
Post by: MarcellaHasDirtyFeet on May 16, 2017, 05:41:00 AM
Maybe they had simply forgotten about it by the time CatP/ST was in the works.


Title: Re: \
Post by: JK on May 16, 2017, 07:28:18 AM
I'm still baffled by the decisions made in the time between the reception of SURF's UP and the release of CATP/PS. A lot of turmoil and changes (Blondie and Ricky added in part to offset Dennis' hand injury; the push by Carl and Jack for a more rock'n'roll direction which hastened Bruce's departure; Steve Desper jumping ship when Mike decided to toss his weight around and have all TM-vetted support staff; Brian variously distracted by side projects and personal issues) led to a truly strange LP. Added to that, the decision (presumably by WB) to package it with PS, a juxtaposition that would make almost any LP look underwhelming by comparison.

Looking at AGD's session listings, it appears that the decision to put "Make It Good" and "Cuddle Up" in the CATP lineup was late in the game (April, after just about everything else had been completed). These tracks are at odds with the rest of the LP, so one gets the sense that this was a last-ditch effort to finish the record--but it can't help but bring up the question concerning WIBNTLA. What caused it to be bypassed at the time? Who was primarily responsible? How could anyone have objectively decided that "Make It Good" was more releasable than WIBNTLA? Was the friction still palpable over how it had been left off SURF'S UP? There must have been some strange dysfunctional dynamics at work during this time frame that, absent a time machine, we are never going to fully understand.

The results, however, were as plain as the nose on your face. CATP got withering reviews; "Mess of Help" didn't register as a BB song to those who'd just heard the harmonizing that dominated SURF'S UP and received a giant WTF; "Marcella" never gained traction. None of the remaining tracks released on CATP brought anything to the table radio-wise. But WIBNTLA would've had more than a shot as an FM track. It could have given the BBs what they so desperately needed at the time--a song somewhere in the range of a hit that wasn't written by Brian. A song that shifted the ground in a way that still had a bridge back to their established sound. Apparently no one saw that in the song at the time...

What a wonderful, insightful post. Thank you, sir.


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 16, 2017, 07:49:06 AM
Maybe they had simply forgotten about it by the time CatP/ST was in the works.

They must've been smoking some strong stuff to have their short term memories be *that* affected. Which in reality may have been exactly what happened.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on May 16, 2017, 09:15:44 AM
I'm still baffled by the decisions made in the time between the reception of SURF's UP and the release of CATP/PS. A lot of turmoil and changes (Blondie and Ricky added in part to offset Dennis' hand injury; the push by Carl and Jack for a more rock'n'roll direction which hastened Bruce's departure; Steve Desper jumping ship when Mike decided to toss his weight around and have all TM-vetted support staff; Brian variously distracted by side projects and personal issues) led to a truly strange LP. Added to that, the decision (presumably by WB) to package it with PS, a juxtaposition that would make almost any LP look underwhelming by comparison.

Looking at AGD's session listings, it appears that the decision to put "Make It Good" and "Cuddle Up" in the CATP lineup was late in the game (April, after just about everything else had been completed). These tracks are at odds with the rest of the LP, so one gets the sense that this was a last-ditch effort to finish the record--but it can't help but bring up the question concerning WIBNTLA. What caused it to be bypassed at the time? Who was primarily responsible? How could anyone have objectively decided that "Make It Good" was more releasable than WIBNTLA? Was the friction still palpable over how it had been left off SURF'S UP? There must have been some strange dysfunctional dynamics at work during this time frame that, absent a time machine, we are never going to fully understand.

The results, however, were as plain as the nose on your face. CATP got withering reviews; "Mess of Help" didn't register as a BB song to those who'd just heard the harmonizing that dominated SURF'S UP and received a giant WTF; "Marcella" never gained traction. None of the remaining tracks released on CATP brought anything to the table radio-wise. But WIBNTLA would've had more than a shot as an FM track. It could have given the BBs what they so desperately needed at the time--a song somewhere in the range of a hit that wasn't written by Brian. A song that shifted the ground in a way that still had a bridge back to their established sound. Apparently no one saw that in the song at the time...

COMMENT TO Don Malclom:     I BEG YOUR PARDON !! "Steve Desper jumping ship when Mike decided to toss his weight around and have all TM-vetted support staff. "

Perhaps you don't take the existence of God and His Son seriously, but some people do, including me. Whether you do or not, I take the promise of eternal life through the actions of Jesus Christ a cosmic reality. TM is the worship of false gods, Hindu deities.  I'll respect the right of any Beach Boy member to believe whatever they wish, but not to force others to believe the same. As an artist, if Mike Love wishes to surround himself with people he feels comfortable being around, then he should. If he thinks that to be more important than working with talented technical people -- that's his decision, not mine.  Because I refused to disavow my belief in my God and my Savior in favor of the almighty dollar in the form of a job, that should tell you where I place importance in my life. But "jumping ship" i.e., praying to what I believe are false gods, is not a job prerequisite I wish to practice. 

If you, Don, are an atheist, then let's put this another way. Suppose part of your job specification as a Beach Boy employee is to stop making love to your wife. You must stop all intimate relations with the person you love. Would you continue to show up for work?  Would you call that "jumping ship" when you resigned and moved on? 

Please watch the terms you use.  I rest my case.
    ~swd   


Title: Re: \
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 16, 2017, 09:25:45 AM
Well said Desper on your reason for leaving, though Don Malcolm meant that as well!


Title: Re:
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on May 16, 2017, 10:57:08 AM
Well said Desper on your reason for leaving, though Don Malcolm meant that as well!

Yeah, that's how I took it as well.


Title: Re:
Post by: kermit27 on May 16, 2017, 11:01:59 AM
Well said Desper on your reason for leaving, though Don Malcolm meant that as well!

Yeah, that's how I took it as well.

Yeah, I took "Steve Desper jumping ship when Mike decided to toss his weight around" as "Steve Desper leaving with very good reason."

I don't think any blame was being placed on Steve from that comment.


Title: Re:
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on May 16, 2017, 11:25:36 AM
Well said Desper on your reason for leaving, though Don Malcolm meant that as well!

Yeah, that's how I took it as well.

Yeah, I took "Steve Desper jumping ship when Mike decided to toss his weight around" as "Steve Desper leaving with very good reason."

I don't think any blame was being placed on Steve from that comment.

COMMENT:   OK -- Well maybe I'm being hyper sensitive, but the term "jumping ship" infers that I left the BB organization without cause or authorization or without legitimate reason . . . like abandoning your post. Being an ex-army man, for me that term carries with it a dishonorable  connotation.  I might have followed the Boys to Holland if not for Mike's TM requirement which, for me, was more than my belief system would allow.  I feel I left the BB organization for a legitimate  reason, so the term "jumping ship" rubbed me the wrong way.

I just wanted to set the record straight. 

----------------------------------------------

I wish I could get the second part of my book out on my website, but too many things keep coming up and the second part is very complex and long. I go over much of this in that book along with the topic-song of this thread. There's a lot of misunderstanding out there.

~swd 


Title: Re: \
Post by: Bicyclerider on May 16, 2017, 01:47:32 PM
"Jumping ship" was a poor choice of words - "pushed overboard" might be more accurate.  The whole incident is a shame because Christianity does not have to be incompatible with Transcendental Meditation.


Title: Re: \
Post by: kermit27 on May 16, 2017, 04:04:51 PM
"Jumping ship" was a poor choice of words - "pushed overboard" might be more accurate.  The whole incident is a shame because Christianity does not have to be incompatible with Transcendental Meditation.


And more appropriately, religion and beliefs shouldn't affect ones job.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on May 16, 2017, 04:39:38 PM
"Jumping ship" was a poor choice of words - "pushed overboard" might be more accurate.  The whole incident is a shame because Christianity does not have to be incompatible with Transcendental Meditation.

COMMENT to Bicyclerider:  I like your choice of words.

Nothing wrong with Meditation.  But TM, involves manipulation of the human brain and supports the belief system in which matter is considered an absolute end in itself.  Christianity is essentially a metaphysical belief system in which there is more to life than a physical dimension. Certainly you can meditate and be a Christian, Jew, Muslim, or whatever, but Mike wanted people around him who had joined and supported the TM movement. The TM movement is part of something called "New Religious Movement" also called "Alternative Spirituality." At that time a US district court ruled TM religious in nature. That involves a little too much deviation for me. The tenets of the Church to which I belong, and most Churches, only allow you to belong to one Church and to support the beliefs and practices of that Church -- not some world wide movement of Hindu origin. I was not willing to violate the tenets of my Church just for a job. It would have meant that I would need to remove myself from my Church membership (those are the rules and to which I agreed when I joined) and I was not willing to do that.

Meanwhile, Michael had met an engineer who did support the TM movement to his satisfaction, and was certainly a qualified engineer. He also made the decision to sell all the equipment in the studio that we also used in concert settings in favor of a new console design favored by said engineer. Although it was untested, Michael took the console to Holland and field tested it at the Beach Boys' expense (nearly bankrupting the organization with all the expenses of supporting all the families of The Beach Boys in a foreign country.) To me this was an ill conceived move when it was clear that the equipment they owned was fully capable of recording an album and had a proven design for travel -- with cases. A move and change of equipment and personal only to support the TM movement.

So when Frank Zappa bought all the equipment and ask me to mix for him, no meditation required, I moved on. Zappa had no drug problem, was a realistic, honest, and fantastic musician with a great band -- it was a challenge I looked forward to meeting.  And the rest is history.
  ~swd


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on May 16, 2017, 05:26:58 PM
So when Frank Zappa bought all the equipment and ask me to mix for him, no meditation required, I moved on. Zappa had no drug problem [...]
Being clean-living, I definitely respect Zappa. He didn't buy into 60s-70s drug scene. Unlike the others like idiots trying to impress their "friends" & peers. ::)

Agree, TM is baloney.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on May 16, 2017, 09:15:05 PM
So when Frank Zappa bought all the equipment and ask me to mix for him, no meditation required, I moved on. Zappa had no drug problem [...]
Being clean-living, I definitely respect Zappa. He didn't buy into 60s-70s drug scene. Unlike the others like idiots trying to impress their "friends" & peers. ::)

Agree, TM is baloney.

COMMENT To RangeRoverA1: Don't read me wrong. TM has been good for Mike Love. It has given him a focus in life, a clarity of thought and good health habits. TM has helped many who might otherwise have been lost souls. I'm just saying it's not for me. I have found something else that works in my life, as have many others. Each of us finds our own way, but requiring your beliefs as part of a job is not a job I needed, or wanted.

It's a slippery slope, being a creative artist. If you can't be artistic or creative unless your environment is conducive to your thinking, then so be it. I can understand that and give you the space you need to be creative. And that's what happened.
~swd


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on May 17, 2017, 01:01:20 AM
2 Mr. Desper: We'll agree to disagree then. I do think TM is stupid. They say it helped them but it may just be in their minds. Akin to placebo effect. That said, agree with your p.o.v. about beliefs not being germane/ relevant to work (ethics). It's Mike's business, we shouldn't care what he believes in, we must be apathetic about it.


Title: Re: \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 17, 2017, 01:22:31 AM
I respect Mr. Desper's ability to be understanding and not resentful under the circumstances. The emotional capacity for that seems somewhat akin to Brian's remarkable capacity for forgiveness, and I mean that as a very sincere compliment.

I can imagine many other people employed and subsequently let go in a similar manner would not have necessarily taken it as well. While I can understand what Mr. Desper said about artists needing a level of peace around themselves in order to create, Mike's actions nevertheless sort of remind me of what I've heard that some powerful Scientologist actors do with regards to throwing their weight around sets to weed out and dismiss all the "SPs" who could be dragging down said actors' "superior" Scientologist lifestyles.

I just think there could have and should have been a better way than laying off phenomenal employees, even ones who are able to make peace with it.


Title: Re: \
Post by: phirnis on May 17, 2017, 04:47:24 AM
It's a very good song. Sometimes Dennis' love songs are a little hard to stomach for me because they're so 'heavy', for lack of a better word. That doesn't mean I don't like them, in fact I do like them a lot. I just have to be in the mood. Not sure if WIBNTLA would've fit on Surf's Up, I think that album is just great the way it is. But they should have put it out one way or another, maybe even just as a b-side, which is still much better than the song staying in the vaults for some 40 years.


Title: Re: \
Post by: buddhahat on May 17, 2017, 12:40:20 PM
It lived up to the hype for me. Can't understand why it was left in the can but I guess those unreleased gems are all part of the charm and mystique of the band.


Title: Re: \
Post by: onkster on May 17, 2017, 01:25:23 PM
I haven't been on the board for a bit, but I must chime in a vote here: entirely and eternally in favor of the Dennis song in question. To me, it sounds like a great lost single, and presages much of Dennis' amazing solo work.


Title: Re: \
Post by: pixletwin on May 17, 2017, 02:04:35 PM
2 Mr. Desper: We'll agree to disagree then. I do think TM is stupid. They say it helped them but it may just be in their minds. Akin to placebo effect. That said, agree with your p.o.v. about beliefs not being germane/ relevant to work (ethics). It's Mike's business, we shouldn't care what he believes in, we must be apathetic about it.

Whether it's in their minds or a placebo what does that matter if it works?

Besides, I think most practitioners of TM would agree that it is all in their minds and that is THE POINT.


Title: Re: \
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on May 17, 2017, 03:28:02 PM
Whether it's in their minds or a placebo what does that matter if it works?

Besides, I think most practitioners of TM would agree that it is all in their minds and that is THE POINT.
You're right. Suppose I just don't like TM.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Don Malcolm on May 18, 2017, 02:55:42 PM
Stephen: my sincere apologies for the very poor choice of phrase. I meant to be sympathetic to your situation as you've described it to us in the past, and to indicate that the group lost one of its greatest resources as a result. While there are many qualified engineers, you've amply demonstrated that you are a sound visionary and the match between you and the BBs is a one-of-a-kind-phenomenon.

It certainly would have been infinitely better had I used the other phrase that I had in mind while writing that post--"being forced out." I regret any connotation that would cause anyone to think that you "abandoned" your post. It's clear to me that many questionable decisions occurred in the fall/winter of '71-'72, and highly prominent among these was the capricious and arbitrary decision to make "lifestyle" and "spiritual" matters some kind of litmus test for employment...particularly in an area so crucial to artistic creativity. Your departure has always struck me as one of the most unfortunate events in the band's career.

I think all of us are glad that Mike was able to curb some of his tendencies as a result of TM (let's not forget BB employee Rick Nelson's rueful comment "Imagine if he'd never meditated...") but we can only shake our heads at his artistic limitations in not recognizing how seminal your contributions were during their greatest period of collective creativity.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on May 18, 2017, 05:35:00 PM
Stephen: my sincere apologies for the very poor choice of phrase. I meant to be sympathetic to your situation as you've described it to us in the past, and to indicate that the group lost one of its greatest resources as a result. While there are many qualified engineers, you've amply demonstrated that you are a sound visionary and the match between you and the BBs is a one-of-a-kind-phenomenon.

It certainly would have been infinitely better had I used the other phrase that I had in mind while writing that post--"being forced out." I regret any connotation that would cause anyone to think that you "abandoned" your post. It's clear to me that many questionable decisions occurred in the fall/winter of '71-'72, and highly prominent among these was the capricious and arbitrary decision to make "lifestyle" and "spiritual" matters some kind of litmus test for employment...particularly in an area so crucial to artistic creativity. Your departure has always struck me as one of the most unfortunate events in the band's career.

I think all of us are glad that Mike was able to curb some of his tendencies as a result of TM (let's not forget BB employee Rick Nelson's rueful comment "Imagine if he'd never meditated...") but we can only shake our heads at his artistic limitations in not recognizing how seminal your contributions were during their greatest period of collective creativity.


COMMENT to Don Malcolm:  Thanks for your response and words of praise. Apology accepted. 

I don't feel I abandon my post, nor was I not forced out, or pushed overboard. The situation was presented, and I made my choice. There's a section in my book on this, in more detail. Again, no offence taken.

Had I stayed with them, I would not have gone on to form a company employing several hundred people in five countries centered around my patented invention. Nor would Carl have lost his personal manager to become my CFO and later CEO of the company I founded. Nor would I have contributed to two of Zappa's albums. So actually, in the end my financial picture greatly improved as well as being able to provide employment for many others.

There was some irony in the final numbers, in that Sail On Sailor was the only song of the album I did not go on to engineer that made any money. Although I never got credit, accept for Blondie's replacement of Carl's original solo, (which was recorded in LA upon returning from the Netherlands) the bulk of the song had already been recorded at Brian's Home Studio in LA before it was closed. So in the end, the huge production expense of producing Holland could have been avoided (and banked) by just releasing Sail On Sailor as a single. 
    ~swd


Title: Re: \
Post by: Rick5150 on May 19, 2017, 02:56:56 AM
Mr. Desper,
A person with your insight and talent would have done well no matter where you ended up, and although I miss your work with the Beach Boys, you clearly made lemonade from Mike's lemons.

Do you remember how much different Carl's vocal sounded? I think that Blondie sounds a lot like Carl on this song - in fact, for years I thought it was Carl singing. Once I learned it was not, I assumed that Blondie was imitating Carl's already recorded vocal.

You're right. Suppose I just don't like TM.

As an agnostic, I have no problem any time any religion is used to in a positive manner to guide ones actions while the follower of said religion maintains control and responsibility for their actions. It is when religion dictates your actions that it tends to get out of hand. TM is great if it did not dominate Mike's life, but there are very few interviews where it came up where it was necessary to discuss. That is when I find it annoying.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on May 19, 2017, 08:02:28 AM
Mr. Desper,
A person with your insight and talent would have done well no matter where you ended up, and although I miss your work with the Beach Boys, you clearly made lemonade from Mike's lemons.

Do you remember how much different Carl's vocal sounded? I think that Blondie sounds a lot like Carl on this song - in fact, for years I thought it was Carl singing. Once I learned it was not, I assumed that Blondie was imitating Carl's already recorded vocal.

You're right. Suppose I just don't like TM.

As an agnostic, I have no problem any time any religion is used to in a positive manner to guide ones actions while the follower of said religion maintains control and responsibility for their actions. It is when religion dictates your actions that it tends to get out of hand. TM is great if it did not dominate Mike's life, but there are very few interviews where it came up where it was necessary to discuss. That is when I find it annoying.

COMMENT to Rick5150: Do you remember how much different Carl's vocal sounded? I don't need to remember, I have a copy of Carl singing SOS. It may well be the only surviving mix with Carl. I think that Blondie sounds a lot like Carl on this song - in fact, for years I thought it was Carl singing. If I compare the original solo to the replacement, all the intonation and phrasing sound very close. Once I learned it was not, I assumed that Blondie was imitating Carl's already recorded vocal. It certainly sounds that way with the exception that Carl's voice is sweeter. Since I wasn't there for the Blondie vocal recording I have often wondered why Carl wanted Blondie to replace the lead. Given that one mimics the other, perhaps it was Carl thinking about future stage performances rather than the studio recording -- maybe a vehicle to elevate Blondie more into the spotlight. He was always generous in that way and, after all, he had the spotlight on him often enough -- with his biggie, God Only Knows. So now, if you've ever seen Blondie perform SOS on stage, he's takes the song to a whole new level and brings it into the 21st century, making it one of the highlights of the show. ~swd


Title: Re: \
Post by: pixletwin on May 19, 2017, 08:12:35 AM

COMMENT to Rick5150: Do you remember how much different Carl's vocal sounded? I don't need to remember, I have a copy of Carl singing SOS. It may well be the only surviving mix with Carl.  ~swd

I think I just heard about a hundred jaws hitting the floor. Mine included.  :)


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 19, 2017, 08:34:02 AM
Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."


Title: Re: \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on May 19, 2017, 11:25:42 AM
Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."
COMMENT to HeyJude:  You've got it backward. Ever since it was recorded, Carl sang the lead. That's how the song existed and how we all lived and heard it for months or even years, until it was re-visited after their return from the Netherlands. I have no idea if BRI kept the original track with Carl singing lead or just replaced the lead track for release. First time I heard it was when I got my copy of Holland. For me, I always knew the song with Carl's lead.  But everyone else knows the song with Blondie's lead.  It's like Til I Die. I was there from day one and onward as the song was developed right up until the day Carl and I were going to make the final mix. Then Brian charged into the Control Room and insisted on recording a new lyric -- the one you now hear. There were no tracks left to preserve the original words he sang which I, frankly, thought were better, but that's how it goes sometimes. I mean we lived with those old lyrics for months and months -- then they were gone. As I've always said, I've erased more Beach Boy vocals then you've ever heard.   ~swd


Title: Re: \
Post by: HeyJude on May 19, 2017, 11:49:11 AM
Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."
COMMENT to HeyJude:  You've got it backward. Ever since it was recorded, Carl sang the lead. That's how the song existed and how we all lived and heard it for months or even years, until it was re-visited after their return from the Netherlands. I have no idea if BRI kept the original track with Carl singing lead or just replaced the lead track for release. First time I heard it was when I got my copy of Holland. For me, I always knew the song with Carl's lead.  But everyone else knows the song with Blondie's lead.  It's like Til I Die. I was there from day one and onward as the song was developed right up until the day Carl and I were going to make the final mix. Then Brian charged into the Control Room and insisted on recording a new lyric -- the one you now hear. There were no tracks left to preserve the original words he sang which I, frankly, thought were better, but that's how it goes sometimes. I mean we lived with those old lyrics for months and months -- then they were gone. As I've always said, I've erased more Beach Boy vocals then you've ever heard.   ~swd

I wasn't speaking at all to the history of the song. I'm just looking at the most basic aspect of what exists, what has been released, and what *could* be released:

We have presently the released version with Blondie singing, and you've mentioned there exists a tape of a version with Carl singing. I sense perhaps BRI would have released such an intriguing track on previous archival releases if they had the tape. So I'm just curious, in the event that a tape with Carl's lead doesn't exist in BRI's vaults, if they have contacted you about using your tape, and/or if you have contacted them to let them know you have the tape.

From the fan perspective, having a vintage recording of Carl singing "Sail on Sailor" is, loosely, analogous to finding a tape of Lennon and McCartney singing the lead to "With a Little Help From My Friends", or finding a tape of Dennis singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", or Brian singing "Guess I'm Dumb", etc.


Title: Re: \
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on May 19, 2017, 02:57:38 PM
Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."
COMMENT to HeyJude:  You've got it backward. Ever since it was recorded, Carl sang the lead. That's how the song existed and how we all lived and heard it for months or even years, until it was re-visited after their return from the Netherlands. I have no idea if BRI kept the original track with Carl singing lead or just replaced the lead track for release. First time I heard it was when I got my copy of Holland. For me, I always knew the song with Carl's lead.  But everyone else knows the song with Blondie's lead.  It's like Til I Die. I was there from day one and onward as the song was developed right up until the day Carl and I were going to make the final mix. Then Brian charged into the Control Room and insisted on recording a new lyric -- the one you now hear. There were no tracks left to preserve the original words he sang which I, frankly, thought were better, but that's how it goes sometimes. I mean we lived with those old lyrics for months and months -- then they were gone. As I've always said, I've erased more Beach Boy vocals then you've ever heard.   ~swd

I wasn't speaking at all to the history of the song. I'm just looking at the most basic aspect of what exists, what has been released, and what *could* be released:

We have presently the released version with Blondie singing, and you've mentioned there exists a tape of a version with Carl singing. I sense perhaps BRI would have released such an intriguing track on previous archival releases if they had the tape. So I'm just curious, in the event that a tape with Carl's lead doesn't exist in BRI's vaults, if they have contacted you about using your tape, and/or if you have contacted them to let them know you have the tape.

From the fan perspective, having a vintage recording of Carl singing "Sail on Sailor" is, loosely, analogous to finding a tape of Lennon and McCartney singing the lead to "With a Little Help From My Friends", or finding a tape of Dennis singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", or Brian singing "Guess I'm Dumb", etc.

COMMENT to HeyJude:  The reason I said that you had it backward is that SOS was originally sung by Carl. I just played my copy. It's part of a collection of acappella versions of songs I made for a mixing study. I was a road mixer too. But McCantney wasn't the original lead on WALHFMF. (was he?). If you found a recording as you said, it would be after the fact. Carl's original lead is before the fact. See???  It's backward. The order is reversed. And I meant that as a comment on the situation, not a judgement of your comment.  Having engineered SOS with Carl singing lead, I always heard the song that way . . . then when it comes out, Blondie is singing the lead. This is, for me, kind of a mind fu-k. To everyone else it's normal, but for me Carl's lead is normal and Blondie's lead is irregular. That's all I was saying.  I have no control over what BRI releases or chooses to not release. Maybe they have SOS with Carl's lead, but feel it would confuse or take away from Blondie's version -- I've heard that excuse before. Back to the original song-topic WIBNTLA. Same thing there. What was released is not way Dennis and I heard the song when he was developing it. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not the same way -- but there is no guide since Dennis is gone and BRI never contacts me for my opinion. However if you stay tuned long enough, you can read about this in the second part of my book when it finally gets published.  ~swd


Title: Re: \
Post by: Dove Nested Towers on May 22, 2017, 09:58:41 PM
Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."
COMMENT to HeyJude:  You've got it backward. Ever since it was recorded, Carl sang the lead. That's how the song existed and how we all lived and heard it for months or even years, until it was re-visited after their return from the Netherlands. I have no idea if BRI kept the original track with Carl singing lead or just replaced the lead track for release. First time I heard it was when I got my copy of Holland. For me, I always knew the song with Carl's lead.  But everyone else knows the song with Blondie's lead.  It's like Til I Die. I was there from day one and onward as the song was developed right up until the day Carl and I were going to make the final mix. Then Brian charged into the Control Room and insisted on recording a new lyric -- the one you now hear. There were no tracks left to preserve the original words he sang which I, frankly, thought were better, but that's how it goes sometimes. I mean we lived with those old lyrics for months and months -- then they were gone. As I've always said, I've erased more Beach Boy vocals then you've ever heard.  ~swd

I wasn't speaking at all to the history of the song. I'm just looking at the most basic aspect of what exists, what has been released, and what *could* be released:

We have presently the released version with Blondie singing, and you've mentioned there exists a tape of a version with Carl singing. I sense perhaps BRI would have released such an intriguing track on previous archival releases if they had the tape. So I'm just curious, in the event that a tape with Carl's lead doesn't exist in BRI's vaults, if they have contacted you about using your tape, and/or if you have contacted them to let them know you have the tape.

From the fan perspective, having a vintage recording of Carl singing "Sail on Sailor" is, loosely, analogous to finding a tape of Lennon and McCartney singing the lead to "With a Little Help From My Friends", or finding a tape of Dennis singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", or Brian singing "Guess I'm Dumb", etc.

COMMENT to HeyJude:  The reason I said that you had it backward is that SOS was originally sung by Carl. I just played my copy. It's part of a collection of acappella versions of songs I made for a mixing study. I was a road mixer too. But McCantney wasn't the original lead on WALHFMF. (was he?). If you found a recording as you said, it would be after the fact. Carl's original lead is before the fact. See???  It's backward. The order is reversed. And I meant that as a comment on the situation, not a judgement of your comment.  Having engineered SOS with Carl singing lead, I always heard the song that way . . . then when it comes out, Blondie is singing the lead. This is, for me, kind of a mind fu-k. To everyone else it's normal, but for me Carl's lead is normal and Blondie's lead is irregular. That's all I was saying.  I have no control over what BRI releases or chooses to not release. Maybe they have SOS with Carl's lead, but feel it would confuse or take away from Blondie's version -- I've heard that excuse before. Back to the original song-topic WIBNTLA. Same thing there. What was released is not way Dennis and I heard the song when he was developing it. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not the same way -- but there is no guide since Dennis is gone and BRI never contacts me for my opinion. However if you stay tuned long enough, you can read about this in the second part of my book when it finally gets published.  ~swd

Hi Stephen. As HJ asked, have you ever considered informing BRI that you have possibly the only extant recording of the original version, and offering it to them for potential inclusion on a future anthology (subject to band approval of course)? Perhaps you wouldn't feel comfortable doing so, or would want to be approached by them first.


Title: Re: \
Post by: The Heartical Don on May 29, 2017, 09:26:14 AM
I missed all the expectation before it got eventually released, perhaps this makes me someone in a small group of folks.

It is a good, pleasant song. It is not the Greatest and Sadly Unreleased Dennis track ever, but then: I didn't know what I was in for in the first place.

I will play it many times again.

And it is just as fine as any Dennis track on Friends, 20/20, Holland, and Pacific Ocean Blue (thought the latter has a few that I would rate above WIBNTLA (Moonshine and the title track, notably).


Title: Re: \
Post by: Justin on August 04, 2017, 11:43:59 AM
Was the dispute between Dennis and Carl about having "Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again" close out the album?  I happened to listen to "Surf's Up" last night and tagging on WIBNTLA at the end is a nice way to end the album but really takes away the drama of ending with the epic "Surf's Up."  WIBNTLA was at that moment, Dennis' epic.  Tough to put two epics one after the other like that.  In the end, I think Carl made the right decision on what song to close out the album but I wish Dennis could have seen that too.  His song might have actually been best to close out Side 1 and would have been just as effective.