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Is the single significantly better than the version on 'Today'? If so, why?

The reason I ask is that I'm far more likely to play 'Today' all the way through than I am 'Summer Days' therefore I hear the earlier version a lot more often and my ears probably recognize it as "the" version.

My favorite version is actually the one from the Brian Wilson & Friends Soundstage CD. I don't even know why, but it rocks  :smokin

The volume switching at the end of the Today! version just kills me, but the falsetto harmony vocal on the Summer Days...! version is superior. To me that makes them different but equal. Combine those two elements for the perfect version.

I like the original Today version the best, by quite a bit actually.

And yes, I also think the volume level changes at the end are annoying, and I wish they weren't there.

I haven't researched the SOT boots, but would it be possible to make an alternate version of that Today version that omits the volume changes at the end? I am guessing the volume-unaltered source material exists?

I believe its on the Endless Harmony sound track. With extra vocal bits to the single version.

I like 'em both.

Chalk and cheese, in many ways. It's a bit like comparing "Bend Me Shape Me" by The American Breed and Amen Corner...

It took me a while to get used to the short guitar solo. It seemed so out of place at first, but now I don't mind it.

The single version that Al can belt out to this day in concert.

That is the best live version.  I would also say that the version of Wouldn't It Be Nice from that special is one of the best.

Dennis' vocal version on Made In California

In concert I think my favorite version is the one from the Circa 15 Big Ones era. The "big" version from the It's Ok tv special from 1976 was pretty cool......love the electric piano.

I agree those are both great versions. Al was really on that night.

Endless Harmony -version. i don't know why, maybe because it sounded so fresh when I first heard it after hearing the two released versions so many times. RondaRhonda has never been among my favourites, but EH version helped me realize how great song it is, after all.

I can't stand the song at all. The Today version is even worse than the Summer Nights version. I think it's one of the most boring songs The Beach Boys have ever realeased

I think, without a doubt, my favorite version is the live arrangement in 1976 and 1977... Dennis at the piano, band and horn line playing an ascending scale which stings out... the sting fades for a pause, and then the band does this double 8th note kick into the song.  It was huge and an adrenalin rush in the audience was like electricity... a huge roar from the crowd as they played for about four bars, and then Al and Mike started singing in unison.  You can hear that 2 note kick in after the pause on the 1976 It's OK special.

Maybe this isn't exactly an actual "version", but I really dig the backing track to single version, the bonus track on the Stack-O-Tracks CD.

That's my favorite too. The extra falsetto is incredibly fun and haunting at the same time. To me the EH version is definitive.

They really seemed to be into futzing around with this song in the 70s and early 80s. They dropped the key, and alternated between Al, Carl, and Dennis singing the lead, going for that slightly Grateful Dead-ish vibe (though still much more polished).

I think the key was still lower when they did the horn arrangement versions circa 1976-77 (as heard in the '76 NBC TV special aka the "Good Vibrations Tour" DVD). While I dig that arrangement as a bed for footage of Al being attacked by a goat, it's not a favorite listening back to it. All these years later, I still have mixed feelings about how much the horn section improved the show in that era, or made it sound a bit too overblown (no pun intended). I do dig the horns on "Airplane"; they were kind of worth it just for that.

I've always been particularly slightly irked by the circa 1979/80 arrangement of Rhonda (as heard/seen on the Knebworth and Washington DC 1980 videos), because they kept different key, Al seemed to be half-way *speaking* the lyrics instead of singing them for some reason (especially the DC show), and Mike for some reason was horning in on this lead every time in this era. On the DC show (can't remember if this also happens on the Knebworth show at the moment), Mike sings over Al for awhile and then eventually inexplicably gives up and lets Al sing it solo.

Perhaps the song is a good candidate to adapt to a more bluesy arrangement (Al even needed to do this on his solo album in more recent years), but it's really kind of a bit of early proto "power pop" and I think it succeeds best in its original peppy key, especially since Al can *still* sing it in that key 50 years later. Inexplicably, Mike has now apparently been taking the lead on this song, in that same key, in his band for the last year or more, and while it's not as much of a trainwreck as one might think, it proves a half century later why Brian was right to give this lead to Al instead of Mike.

<<and Mike for some reason was horning in on this lead every time in this era. On the DC show (can't remember if this also happens on the Knebworth show at the moment), Mike sings over Al for awhile and then eventually inexplicably gives up and lets Al sing it solo>

This isn't "horning in..." it's old school professionalism.  Doubled leads were always a big thing in those days (just listen to Brian's patter with Dean Torrence on the Party sessions).  Jan & Dean used to routinely double their leads on stage in the sixties to give it a fuller sound.

It was standard practice on stage in the mid/late seventies period for band members in the Beach Boys to double leads on songs.  Mike always doubled Al's leads on Rhonda and Wouldn't It Be Nice for the first verse.  Billy Hinsche doubled Al Jardine on Honkin' Down the Highway on the 1977 tour.  It happened on other songs as well.  This isn't ego... this is professional musicianship for that era.

I suppose I can't get assume the motive for Mike singing part of the lead, but musically I can say it was unneeded and came across, especially to anyone who didn't subsequently listen to dozens of recordings of the 1980 tour like I have, as though Mike was arbitrarily singing the lead for part of the song for no particular reason. It *comes across* as the exact opposite of professional and makes it sounds messy. I've seen/heard examples where Mike's doubling ends in the middle of a verse. It comes across as slapdash, even if he did some variation of it at every show in that era. It almost comes across as though he's bored with the section of the song that doesn't have backing vocals, so he's just singing the lead in unison for lack of anything else to do.

So it *comes across* as horning in, and musically regardless of his motives it is "horning in" in that it's just not needed. And that's not even getting into the issue of, from the fan perspective, maybe wanting to hear Al sing a song since he never had a ton of leads at these shows, even in the era when he was taking a few Brian-centric leads.

To be fair, I think over the years this happened from time to time, with members kind of bobbing and weaving between lead and backing vocals, and different backing vocal parts. At the same time, I don't feel as though "doubling leads" was a rampant thing at any stage of the BBs live shows. It happened from time to time, sometimes more planned than others. But I don't recall a glut of songs at any given show with two BBs singing the lead throughout in unison (distinct from multi-part harmonies of course). There's a reason for that: it often sounds clunky or weird or messy.

The Rhonda thing isn't a huge deal, and it's clear Mike was doing it regularly at shows in this era for whatever reason. As I mentioned, I've probably tracked more 1980 shows than almost any fan out there over the years. It's actually one of my "guilty pleasure" eras of the band's live shows that I feel is unfairly maligned or ignored, at least a bit. I'm not suggesting he was "singing over" Al against Al's wishes (though I'm not 100% sure I would buy that it was an agreed-upon "vocal arrangement choice" so much as Mike just picking a part to sing).

"Wouldn't It Be Nice" was even more of a mess in the 80s. They had to cut WIBN from the Washington DC 1980 broadcast because Brian sounds like he's literally running out of batteries mid-song. That Arizona show from 1988 that circulates as a semi-pro-shot video features Al, Mike, Carl, and Jeff Foskett all stumbling over each other singing the lead at the beginning. Again, I don't know which portion of this was planned, but it comes across as messy and unorganized.

<<I suppose I can't get assume the motive for Mike singing part of the lead, but musically I can say it was unneeded and came across, especially to anyone who didn't subsequently listen to dozens of recordings of the 1980 tour like I have, as though Mike was arbitrarily singing the lead for part of the song for no particular reason. It *comes across* as the exact opposite of professional and makes it sounds messy.>>

The vocal presentation on stage was designed to sound fuller, bigger, for a live audience, not a mixing board to tape.  From an audience perspective, with the amplification and reproduction available in those days, what might have sounded "messy" on a mixing board recording sounded great in the middle of the audience.  Do you really think, at that stage of the game, Mike Love was so desperate for validation he'd sing over Al on those two songs, as if to say, "me, too?"  Or that Carl would have allowed it if he thought it sounded bad to a live audience?  Carl called the shots in those days, on stage.  If he didn't like it, it didn't happen.

<<came across, especially to anyone who didn't subsequently listen to dozens of recordings of the 1980 tour like I have>>

This, of course, illustrates my point perfectly.  My perspective didn't come from listening to dozens of recordings from tours... it came from being in those audiences.  As they say, I guess you had to be there.

The thing is, I've been to a ton of concerts, and listened to recordings of those same concerts, same tours, etc. So I understand the potential disparities between the in-house sound and board recordings (and audience recordings), and certainly the experience of being there versus listening to a recording.

I've seen many Beach Boys and related shows, including pre-1998 Beach Boys, solo Brian, solo Al, etc. I understand the vocal dynamics in person and on recording quite well.

I'm not saying Mike sang out of key or anything. I don't think his doubling of Al sounded good either (and I don't think Al was singing the song that great either in this particular arrangement and key, as described above).

His doubling Al on Rhonda just sounds awkward and unnecessary. Not a big deal *at all*; it's just (let's all say it together) *opinion.* I tend to find the reasoning (a "fuller, bigger" sound) for this particular doubling unconvincing, as for the majority of the 50+ years all the variations of the band have stuck to a single lead vocal on the song, as they have on *most* of all of the songs in all of those years.

The fact that Mike seemingly randomly only doubled Al on the beginning portion of the song, and not the full song, speaks further to this not being some strategic vocal arrangement choice ("Al, we really need to beef up your lead vocal for just the first verse of "Rhonda"?) and more just a tick or a "thing" Mike was into on that tour/era, maybe just getting into the energy of the ramping up at the beginning of the song. As I said, they all did things vaguely of this nature over the years.

Not sure how much more I can offer to clarify simply *not liking* Mike doubling Al on a few lines for a short period of time 37 years ago.

<<The fact that Mike seemingly randomly only doubled Al on the beginning portion of the song, and not the full song, speaks further to this not being some strategic vocal arrangement choice>>

Nothing random about it at all.  At the many shows I attended between 1976 - 1980, Mike, specifically, sang the first verse with Al on Rhonda and WIBN, then reverted to his bg parts beginning with the first chorus, which was where his part began on the records.  He would then stay with his required bg parts for the rest of the songs.  Very precise, and happened every time.

In 1981, the band dropped the "fanfare" version of Rhonda, in favor of an arrangement closer to the original 1965 single, but with the guitar fills from the Beach Boys Today LP album track (I think those fills were actually redone on synthesizer).  At that point, as I recall, it became Al solo.

I do remember Al occasionally doubling - or coming to the rescue - of Brian when he attempted WIBN during that '81 tour.

Mike doubling Al on that part is definitely not random; as we've been discussing, he was doing in regularly in this era. I just still think it was more an arbitrary thing Mike started doing that stuck for awhile. Sort of like Foskett doing little vocal riff bits during his tenure in the BBs or Brian's band. It makes sense when I think of it as a little tick of Mike's during that era. It makes no sense thinking of it at the outset as a strategic group arrangement decision.

Al did double and rescue Brian's vocals on WIBN (and sometimes other guys just took the lead if Brian wasn't up to it for whatever reason), but the issue of handling doubling or rescuing Brian's leads during this era is of course a whole other ball of wax. That *was* a case in some instances of filling in gaps and covering up Brian biffing something or running out of steam, etc.

This is a great thread....I said on a thread a couple of years ago, I saw first hand how the many versions of Rhonda in concert caused issues the evening of the Cleveland stop of C50  mid June 2012.   As a birthday gift, my wife bought us Meet and Greet for the show.  During the sound check, at the end,  they specifically did Rhonda, which I thought was weird.  At the end of the song Al and Scott T. got into a bit of a rift over what Al did the previous evening in Cincy and Scott wanted to get it straighten it out for that evenings show.

It hurt watching Scott say "Al, this is how we do it now".  Scott walks off, Al puts down his guitar, slowly turns towards the 3 rows of fans, puts his arms out at length, shakes his head and slowly walks off. I can see where Al could have been in a groove/habit of doing old rifts where MB now maybe plays a different "version" where Al just wasn't up on...who knows.  I'm not up on the exact musical differences between all the versions but I can see in the C50 make-up of the band, old habits were probably very hard to break for some of the guys, including Brian and his bandmates.  Remember, Scott T. was the musical director for the tour and Mike in charge of the set-list.

He was co-director with Mertens apparently, but it does appear during soundchecks a lot of that stuff ran through him. I totally get it, if you're the director (or co-director), you have to do your job even if it means telling the artist they're doing something wrong. (I'm curious if Totten has or would ever take that same tone with Mike). But at the same time, this isn't a normal "artist hiring a musical director" situation. Totten had to know he's been intertwined into Mike's touring band, which remained a cause/player in a lot of BS Al had to go through legally and politically in the BB organization. If Al wants to do it a different way, why not stop and change the arrangement to do it his way?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Al over the years could be wishy washy and strangely still unsure of things he's been doing for a half century.

Stories like this also reinforce a few more things about Al and C50: Al was comically marginalized (the band seemed to be largely preoccupied with reconciling the arrangement differences between Brian's band and Mike's band; not so much how Al had been doing songs at his random fairs over the years), and Mike wasn't the *only* person who may have had legit beefs with how C50 went. But you don't see Al giving interviews complaining about how he was marginalized on C50 or was told to sit down and shut up, etc. He continually praised C50.

Imagine Paul Mertens telling Mike that he has to change how he does "Kokomo." It would have received a full-page recounting in Mike's book.

'Help You, Rhonda' off Lei'd in Hawaii.

Any "Rhonda" with Al lead. I agree with HJ's post that Brian was right to give the lead to Al than Mike. Dennis' live version is curio, that's about it.

The psychedelic, minimalist Help You, Rhonda from the Lei'd in Hawaii sessions (heard on Made in California) is indeed a pretty rad version.

I wonder what prompted the lyrical change on that version: sheer boredom to mix things up?

"Help You Rhonda" is interesting contextually, but musically I think they wasted space for it on the "Made in California" set.

To answer two questions, 1st I love Help Me, Rhonda, I have heard so many versions of it. The sessions for it are staggering both the Today! version and the Summer Days version. 2nd, My favorite version I have to say is a tie between the Endless Harmony version and the 2nd Attempt during the Mix down, where Brian is doubling Mike's Bass Bow, Bow, Bow part while singing the high Falsetto on the "Help Me Rhonda Yeah". Carl is also doubling his Guitar part with a more fiddly part and someone is playing Castanets. Al is at the session too doubling his lead but, only on the intro. Yes it does exist on a bootleg floating around. It is awesome, so it may reveal something not many know, Brian is doubling Mike on the released version, via feeding his and Al's extra vocals to the Mono Mix on top of the already in place vocals! Ground breaking stuff at the time, indeed.

https://youtu.be/L7_9soY_-DY

I have NEVER heard this      good stuff