The Smiley Smile Message Board

We all know about Brian mentioning Barnyard Billy in his documentary "I just Wasn't Made for These Times". If you haven't' seen it you can see it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ukxFehVw_c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ukxFehVw_c)

Now the section he sings there is in the key of F, which is not the same key of the section we know as "Barnyard". That Section is in the key of G#.
However, the notes of that section he sang got me thinking. It sounded real and I wanted to see if there was any instrumental material we might've overlooked. The first thing that came to my mind was I Don't Know and Tones/Tune X because we honestly Don't Know what those sections were for. I've always had a hard time believing the idea that they were written by Carl and Dennis. First, I want to know if there's any real, actual evidence of that notion. Sure they went in with material and conducted the whole show, but does that mean they wrote it? I just find it odd that at the height of Brian's musical powers, that his brothers thought they could add something to the Smile material.

Anyways, the section I Don't Know popped into my head because of it's banjo and bass. The Bass in I Don't Know sounds VERY similar to the notes Brian sang. The only problem was that I Don't Know is in the key of G. But I think Brian just accidentally sang the melody in the lower key. F is right next to G. So I raised the pitch of Brian singing Barnyard Billy to G and put it on top of I Don't Know. My results can be found here. Let me know what you guys think, because I think it's a match.
https://vimeo.com/182006656 (https://vimeo.com/182006656)

The only other remaining question I have is "Is this the master take(4) of IDK?". They have 3 other "takes" on the smile sessions, but they never really count off. And if this is the Barnyard Billy Section, then if makes sense why there's only 4 takes; it's Dennis who's running the session here, which is probably why Brian didn't come in (since this is such a silly and short section. Maybe he was sick or tired so he let Dennis do it).

The truth is that "Barnyard Billy" was written by Zeppo Wilson before it was stolen by Dennis for "I Don't Know". After they fought over the song on an airport tarmac, Dennis was inspired to write "Barnyard Blues". Which was supposed to be the centerpiece of Pet Sounds.

We know this because all of those songs are tuned to A440.

Huh?

I honestly don't know...I've often wondered what the deal was, or if it was just something Brian made up 'off-the-cuff' so to speak.

As for 'I don't Know' and 'Tones/Tune X', I always thought they were just kind of 'practice exercises' to get more acclimated to production.

But vocals were recorded for Tones/Tune X, so they couldn't've just been practice exercises. That's exactly what I used to think.
Also, I think Tones and IDK were meant to go together. IDK into Tones sounds very natural and it's in the same key.

And I do agree with the production thing, since Dennis and Carl were the only ones who fully trusted the direction Brian was taking the material. It's kind of Godfather-esque, Brian letting them produce several pieces as a gift in return for their support in him at the time.

This is hilarious because you can tell a genuine amount of time was wasted putting thought into this.

I think this very site is one of the few places where Zeppo Wilson's impressive but tragic biography is still available. I urge anyone who doesn't know the truth about the forgotten Wilson brother to do a search and read about this nearly-lost bit of history.

One must also consider this chord progression from the second part of "Surf's Up":

  iv ii   V  I
  adieu or die...

Now, here is "Everybody Wants to Live":

     iv     ii   ii/V  I
  ...your life can be

What could this mean? Sure, one chord is different, but the songs are in the same key (F major). Plus, one of the lyrics says "die", while the other says "life". There's no way this was unintentional. Was Brian trying to hint at a lost "cigarette butt suite"?

It's amazing how - if we look hard enough - we can find new mysteries about Smile every day!

You do realize it's just a boring joke? There is nobody with such name that exists in BBs biography. leetwall97 asked serious question & expected, obviously, serious answer.

Great crispy sh*t...lighten up. It was a damn joke.

RR has about the same sense of humor as the "mega mod" on the other board. ::)

:lol

Do we know for sure if Barnyard Billy loved his chickens, or did he just tolerate them?

That's what I said, joke. This "Zeppo" thing is so tiresome, I didn't know people still find it funny, like Emily etc. If I asked very serious question, I would expect serious answer. Look what leetwall97 wrote, he didn't like that joke too. I agreed with them, why reply just to me?

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/009/986/internet-serious-business-cat.jpg)

Thanks for cat. I like cats. :3d

As for the original topic...
I admit to not being as knowledgeable about Smile as some of the other scholars here.  So..is there even such a thing as 'Barnyard Billy' or was the just something Brian tossed off during the IJWMFTT doc?

I think it's real. The way Brian looks off to the right and tries to grab something from the past quickly. It sounds thought out too. Plus Mark Linett believes in Barnyard Billy.

I want to believe in Barnyard Billy.

(http://images.hellogiggles.com/uploads/2016/01/24/tumblr_nlzqs1GZCi1u1hmw5o1_1280.jpg)

Just to be clear, I meant no disrespect to leetwall97's post. I just popped in to see what the topic was, saw the Zeppo mention, thought I'd follow up. Zeppo doesn't get enough respect around here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4

No worries  :D

This is the best thread ever.  ;D

No Jay, this is

(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/61037/3141198-9964243430-purpl.jpg)

 :lol

A quick Update.

Barnyard Billy still remains a mystery. Tune X and IDK are actually early versions of Little Pad! You can catch up on the progress here:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24381.msg589573.html#msg589573 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24381.msg589573.html#msg589573)

What about the technical supportyard Billy C. Mystery.  ;)

:lol

True confession:
Barnyard is my favorite!

Any version. The demo on the documentary soundtrack. The versions on the bootlegs. And definitely the official Smile sessions version. I love that song.

"Billy" was a character inspired by a hobo that Zeppo encountered when he was riding the rails during his barely-documented beat phase (which intrigued Brian to no end), he was always pestering Zeppo for anecdotes that he could use for a sprawling "Depression" suite, to be the centerpiece of the even more ambitious "History Follies" album that he was already frenziedly planning as a triumphant follow-up to Smile. Zeppo would get so amped while recounting the wandering bum's travails and misadventures that he would forget to use the bathroom and wet himself, which always repelled Brian and, along with his drug consumption, the ongoing Capitol royalty dispute, his inability to put the pieces of Smile together (first things first), and Mike's opposition to any deviation from the formula, was the main reason for his eventually souring on the project and scrapping the idea altogether.

Strange that nobody mentions when Barnyard Billy joined Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page to found the Barnyardbirds.

Actually it should be "Barnyard Billy LOVED  ;) His Chickens."  :lol that reminds me I need to go to a farm for a couple hours,,,will be back...

As it had been discovered / brought to my attention in a previous thread that can be found here:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24381.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24381.0.html)
Tune X is an early version of Little Pad. When Smile was scrapped, Tune X / I Don't Know was reworked into Little Pad. I have made 2 videos to illustrate the similarities.

A Tune X vocal guide done by yours truly
https://vimeo.com/182737810 (https://vimeo.com/182737810)

Little Pad reworked in the style of Tune X
https://vimeo.com/182744665 (https://vimeo.com/182744665)

Only a few questions about these pieces remain. What was the point of recording I Don't Know if Tune X contains the very same riff? Does the master of Tune X that survived contain the extra Instrumental Overdub done several days later under the supervision of Brian? And finally, what are the lyrics? The instrumentation doesn't sound like a song about Hawaii.

Btw, I've sat down at the piano and found the chords for Tune X. They are:

Verse 1
G/D   C/E
G/D   C/E

Bridge 1
Em   C
Em   A   D   
G/G-G-F-F

Quick Chorus
C   Dm   Em-Dm-C
C   Dm   Em-Dm-C
C   Dm

Verse 2
G/D   C/E
G/D   C/E

Bridge 2
Em   C
Em   A   D   
G/G-G-F-F

Long Chorus
C   Dm   Em-Dm-C
C   Dm   Em-Dm-C

Child Is Father of the Man is (in my opinion) and extremely interesting song on the Smile album. I've always loved the instrumentation and especially the scat background vocals on it. The biggest question surrounding the piece (besides the lyrics), was "how did the melody go". In a previous thread I pointed out how Little Pad on Smiley Smile is a reworking of the piece known as Tune X / IDK from the Smile Sessions. That thread can be found here:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24391.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24391.0.html)

Little Bird from the Friends album is another reworking of a Smile song (specifically CFM). The Melody, instrumentation and trumpet tag are direct copies of CFM, just with Dennis Wilson's "contributions" to the piece (contributions consisting of splitting verses in half and changing the keys of different sections. And let us not forget Stephen Kalinich's lyrics!).

Using the melodies from Little Bird, we now have an original melody line. Just as I have done with Little Pad, I have made two video to help illustrate the new melodies.

Child Is Father of the Man Vocal Guide, done by yours truly (vox are a little pitchy. sorry!)
https://vimeo.com/182779362 (https://vimeo.com/182779362)

I've also arranged Little Bird to follow the pattern of Child Is Father of the Man
https://vimeo.com/182771925 (https://vimeo.com/182771925)

Now all we need is lyrics! It's interesting how the Chorus Vocals lead right into the Verse Vocals. I assume the lyrics would've been very Steamboat Mary-esque.
For example:

Mary had a steamboat,
the steamboat had a bell.
Mary went to heaven
and the steamboat went to Hell–

O operator, please give me number 9...

Nice singing, but no, it's not. Tune X is just a composition that may accommodate the melody of Little Pad via semi-related chords. They both have extremely generic progressions.

I agree the two songs are related and made this mash-up some time ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7CW9ZzbTYE

The songs are as related to each other as Do You Like Worms, Cabinessence, Little Children, and Too Much Sugar, which all alternate between the chords F and B♭.

Even those Tune X chords the OP wrote out alternate between the tonic (I) and the subdominant (IV). Which ultimately diverges significantly from the progression of Little Pad.

It's like calling I'm Waiting for the Day an "early version" of My Mary Anne. It's not. They just use similar music devices. Brian happens to recycle them frequently.

That's true, but Do You Like Worms' Verses are only related to Cabin Essence's Chorus. Plus they were meant to flow together so it was done on purpose. Little Children's verses mix with the rest, yeah. But just the verses. Not the rest of the song. That's what makes this discovery stand out; IT'S THE ENTIRE SONG that fits with Tune X.


Little Pad is in a different order than Tune X. That's what they did on Smiley Smile. Change the order of the left-over fragments and put them in different keys. A great example would be the Heroes & Villains version of Smiley Smile. Let's dissect it.

The Heroes and Villains version found on Smiley Smile is a combination of Side A and Side B of the Smile Version of H&V. Brian stole the Part 2 Insert from Side B and put it in the place of Bridge to Indians on the Verses in Smiley Smile.

So basically, the versions of songs on Smiley Smile DO NOT MATCH the versions found on Smile. I'd imagine the key changes on the different H&V singles differ considerably.


I didn't say Little Pad was an EXACT COPY of Tune X. It's missing the I Don't Know riff. But I'd imagine if your gonna re-produce a song of yours that was scrapped with a different project, you might change some parts of it around. I recommend you go and look at my Little Bird is Child Is Father of the Man thread. You will notice there how Dennis split the verses of CFM into two halves, and changed the keys of both of them. The same thing happens on the chorus of little pad. The last third of the chorus changes keys, so it can flow better with the new order.

The new order of Little Pad is:
Short Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Verse-Chorus

The order of Tune X is:
Verse-Bridge-Short Chorus-Verse-Bridge-Long Chorus

Little Pad reverses the order of Bridge-Chorus into Bridge-Verse, so yes, the changes are different but that's the pattern of Smiley Smile. If I can take an ENTIRE song's melody, put it in a different Key and apply it to a different piece, then they're related. And that's all I'm saying here.

I should've just posted this instead! Boy this makes me wish they'd give us Stack-o-tracks for Smiley Smile!

Or how about an even better idea! A Box set for Smiley Smile! The Smiley Smile Sessions

Thanks you, and yes that's true. But it amazes me that it accommodates the entire song's melody. I think it's likely. They were recorded 3 months apart. And Little Pad was recorded on an album that revolves around rehashing left overs from Smile.

And go check out my CFM is Little Bird thread! I want to hear opinions on those melodic ideas. Hopefully someone else will be inspired and do a better voice over

The Tag to Child Is Father of the Man was labeled as a Cabin Essence Section. It was also overdubbed with Guitars, Carl doing the lead. Once overdubbed, the piano track was removed. Wonder what kind of guitars they used?

The June version of With Me Tonight on Harpsichord was noted as a Vega-Tables section. Sounds to me like it was a B-Side for the then single. Which is odd, because Brian held one more sweetening session for H&V Part 1 and 2 around this time.

Brian definitely contributed to the section of Little Bird that sounds like Child, and apparently refused any writing credit.

I fully understand that. But even if you match the keys and the sections, they're still different progressions.

In Child Is Father of the Man's chorus and Little Bird's bridge section, the drum pattern, bass line, instruments, and progressions (+chords) are identical. The only thing different is the vocal melody and arrangement.

If Little Pad and Tune X has different progressions, different chords, different melodies, different keys, different arrangements, and different structures, what do they have in common? A 4/4 time signature?

I don't have SS box set so I don't know is that source for this information?? By "tag to CFTM" you mean piano and trumpet section, or something else?

I think these are very ingenious

could the 'little bird' lyrics have started out as 'little child'..?

it would be good to hear them without your B/Vs, just the main melodies and mixed further into the tracks - at the mo its all a bit confusing to my ear

good work though

Yep. And Yes.

Hmmm...it's been 5 years since I was able to listen to all the existing SMiLE tapes and compile notes for the sessionography, but from my increasingly hazy memory, I don't exactly recall it that way...looking at the sessionography, I'd written that the CIFOTM session from 10/11/66 was "logged as a CABIN ESSENCE session", meaning that's the title on the AFM contract for the date. I just checked, and the tape box track sheet is labeled "CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN'", not 'CABIN ESSENCE", with notation indicating three sections: Chorus Basic, Verse, and Bridge. Why did the AFM contract list a completely different song title? Who knows.

I listed the personnel from the tracking session as below, with the annotation "o/d" indicating an overdub:

Tack piano: Brian Wilson (chorus & verse)
Grand piano: Brian Wilson (bridge)
Electric rhythm guitar (w/tremelo): Carl Wilson (verse)
Electric baritone lead guitar (w/fuzztone in chorus, w/tic-tac in verse): Bill Pitman (chorus & verse)
Fender bass: Carol Kaye
Upright bass (arco in chorus): Jimmy Bond
Trumpet: Ollie Mitchell
Snare drum: Brian Wilson ? (o/d) (chorus)
Sleighbells: Carl Wilson ? (o/d) (chorus)

So, I'm pretty sure the guitars were played on the basic track, although the drum and percussion parts were overdubbed - also, I'm pretty sure the piano is still there (just somewhat distant due to how it was mic'd).

Oh okay I see. Bill Pitman and Carl's guitar parts must've been o/ds for the Verse and Chorus on the 11th. And the reason why AFM documented this as a Cabin Essence section is because the boys recorded vocals for Home on the Range from 8 pm to 2 am.

I'm pretty sure the guitars you're referring to were played during the basic tracking...what makes you think they were overdubs?

In June the With Me Tonight session - This was recorded at a Vegetables session (I don't have TSS with me to check on that), but are you implying that With Me Tonight was going to be a Bside for a Vegetables single?  Because by June the idea (in April) of releasing Vegetables as the single had been abandoned and Heroes was the planned single, finished in June.

By the way loving your enthusiasm for all things Smile!!

The June '67 sessions for "With Me Tonight" were logged with the AFM as "Vegetables" as the title (I think one of them even read "Vegetables (You're With Me Tonight)". As to why, I couldn't say.

That's very interesting.  To me that suggests With Me Tonight was to be a section of Vegetables - either a middle 8 or break or a "tag."  The three minute version though it's hard to see what that could be other than its' own track, unless Brian got carried away and it was a fade that went longer than it would have appeared on the song.

To be honest, I think Brian's creative vision was jumping around all over the place in those days...anything could have been part of anything else in his mind, and the "set list" was constantly changing...even after SMiLE was officially scrubbed, he kept a vision for it in his mind for awhile.

I think it could be as simple as putting Vegetables into the same create-by-edit template he had used on the singles starting with GV, then all the work on Heroes focused for this discussion on the "finished" Chuck Britz cantina edit, and moving into Smiley Smile. For one, there are "test edits" of both Vegetables and Heroes where Brian is playing with the sequencing of various sections. Then the Smile version of Vegetables, the full-on version as appeared on the GV box set, has "Do A Lot" in there for one example. And the released Smiley version has the new jug segment, and then a segment from the Smile sessions, fully orchestrated (I know that you'll feel better...). Similar to the other "single", Heroes that went through the same process.

We know both Heroes and Vegetables were reported as upcoming singles, on and off of course. So With Me Tonight could very well have been tried as a segment of Vegetables and labeled as such, just as Do A Lot and whatever else Brian was recording and plugging in, working within the same template he did with GV.

I'm sorry I mixed up my info. The Guitar overdubs by Carl were for the October 3rd recording of Home on the Range. No idea why it says Bill was there. Was the tag to CFM recorded on the same day as the rest of CFM?

So here's the deal with that. With Me Tonight was meant for the Vega-Tables single as some sort of insert for either Side A or Side B. Side B was Wonderful version 3. It's a piano track recorded in the key of A, and it's the first version of Wonderful to contain pauses. I believe the pauses were meant to be filled in by either With Me Tonight, or Mama Says. Perhaps both.

I'm working on a mix at the moment...
https://vimeo.com/183142497 (https://vimeo.com/183142497)

The biggest problem is figuring out where to put WMT. There's the fast version of WMT with Mike and Brian doing lead, then there's the slow version (contained on the Box set) of the group singing lead. And then there's the Vega-Tables insert version included in the video above. Was that version for VT? And if so where? Or was it for Wonderful?

Either way, it's best to keep the Single version of the song confused. I've yet to go and check out the Album version which seems pretty straight forward (except for the CFM part). I'm only missing one piece, and it's the Part 4 Insert with Marilyn singing lead.


Thanks a lot man! It's nice to know that there's others out there!

Uh, no...there were no overdubs on "Cabin Essence" at all (other than the vocals, that is). The track was recorded in sections, much like other SMiLE selections...but Carl and Bill Pitman both played "live" with the rest of the band. And as far as I know, the three pieces of "Cabin Essence" (those being the "Home On The Range" verse, the "Who Ran The Iron Horse" chorus, and the "Have You Seen The Grand Coolie" tag) were the only things recorded on October 3rd.

As for "Child Is Father"...there were two versions cut in October...the first (on 10/7) did have Bill Pitman adding a second fuzzy baritone lead part as an overdub, while Carl played castanet...but the first fuzzy baritone lead guitar was on the basic track. The second version (taped 10/11) had Carl and Pitman both playing guitars on the basic track. ANd again, both versions were recorded in sections (chorus and verse on 10/7, chorus, verse, and bridge on 10/11). Then, there was the third version (from 4/10/67, recorded at the same session as the third version of "Wonderful" and vocal & veggie chomping overdubs on the verse and rough chorus attempt on "Vega-Tables".

Holy cow! The CFM piano thing was recorded on the 10th too! That might be the insert for Wonderful version 3!

And I just checked, it's a prefect fit. Ending on the G# and going into the A... thanks so much for the insight!

Btw, do you know when the different versions of With Me Tonight were recorded? The slow, fast and Vega-Table versions?

The only things recorded on the 10th of October were vocals for "Wind Chimes" (the group tag vocals, and Carl's lead vocals). Maybe I confused you with "10/7" and "10/11" above - people outside of the U.S. would read those dates as "July 10th" and "November 10th", but here in America they're read as "October 7th" and "October 11th", and those are the correct dates - sorry for any misunderstanding there!

As for "With Me Tonight" - I believe the "fast" version may be from June 5th '67 (two sessions, at Western and United), the "Vega-Table" version is from June 6th-7th at Western, and the "slow" version (as released on Smiley Smile is from June 30th at Brian's home studio on Bellagio.

Another example of the timeline that I keep pointing to as possibly crucial to figuring out what happened in the big picture...The band returns from Europe, sessions while they were in Europe were being held at the "pro" studios, first week of June, still being held at the "pro" studios as was done before, then in those next weeks they hauled rental gear into Brian's house and started recording in a living room with a Gates Dualux radio broadcast console. Something major obviously happened to facilitate this complete and radical change in the process after the Boys returned.

Oh no, I meant the April 10th CFM piano tag with the "Walk Child" vocals. My bad! Should've been more specific. But I believe that was the Wonderful version 3 Insert.

And thanks for the With Me Tonight Dates. But the slow one I mean is the one with the harpsichord and Mike singing lead, but I guess they recorded that on the same day as the fast one.

And this is all very delicate, trying to sort out Smile recordings from Smiley Smile ones.

This kind of statement: Have you chosen to ignore everything written about the subject, including what I just wrote in this thread?  :)

Check May into June 1967 then check Nick Grillo's comments on what happened, along with other reports I posted here this past year, and tell me it was a "whim" that they changed entirely the recording methods Brian had been using for several years and to great success.

It feels like Mujon came back...  :lol

Sorry. I shouldn't've been snotty.

You don't care, yet you make definitive statements and comments about other topics like With Me Tonight's place in this song or that, and other definitive statements which the session dates and notes could easily prove or disprove as if they're fact? It reminded me of quite a few posters like Mujon in the past whose well-meaning enthusiasm sometimes came off as arrogant as in saying "THIS is what With Me Tonight would have been" rather than offering an opinion as such...Maybe taking a minute and going to the archives to rehash some of these details is just a recommendation, before commenting along the lines of saying certain pieces of audio were "missing" then coming back later and mentioning that they were released on various boots or whatever.

If you make a statement, that Smiley Smile was Brian deciding on a whim to do things that way, it's ignoring everything that has been debated or discussed about the topic here and elsewhere for years. And if you don't care, then don't make such a statement and expect no one to chime in to offer a rebuttal.

Like this from January:

I think the three minute one might've been either a B-Side thing or just a long take for the insert like you suggested. The Chorus' for VT repeat like 5 or 6 times on the tapes. That might explain the 3 minute With Me Tonight version. Btw, the fast and slow versions of WTM I'm talking about are all basically about 3 minutes.

According to Derek Taylor, the B-Side was Wonderful version 3, so I think With Me Tonight was an insert for either VT, Wonderful or perhaps both! The Child Is Father of the Man piano bit with the "Walk Child" lyrics were recorded on the same day as Wonderful version 3, so I do believe it was meant as the insert for the piece. However, that does leave use with the 2-bar pause after the 1st verse. The one with Brian tapping his foot and silently counting. Maybe that would've had a With Me Tonight Vocal, or perhaps the "Na na na naa-na-na-naaaa" thing from the Smiley Version of Wonderful. I'd love to hear your impressions! I'm thinking about moving this over to a new thread though

We all have our own ideas for H&V, and the last thing we need is another thread to bicker and argue over what Brian meant by doing this and that. However, I think it would be nice if we did have at least one of the Singles for the Smile era to listen to. One that we can construct and agree on. And I don't mean to pick on us since Brian was changing things around etc. But Vega-Tables is a simple song, so let's figure out the mysteries behind With Me Tonight, Child Is Father of the Man Part 4 and Wonderful Version 3!

I'd like to present my theory on Side B first. Derek Taylor said that Wonderful would be the B Side and that the boys did it at the piano. Well that's version 3, but we're missing the insert. However, it was pointed out to me by the user c-man, that the piano take of Child Is Father of the Man with the "walk-child" vocals, was recorded on the same day as the 3rd version of Wonderful was (April the 10th). In my theory, I believe that was the insert for this version of Wonderful. In this video, I present how I believe Brian would've mixed the 2 together for the B-Side of Vega-Tables.

https://vimeo.com/183231269 (https://vimeo.com/183231269)

Another HUGE mystery about the Vega-Tables single, is the timing of the recordings of With Me Tonight. Mostly, these takes were recorded in June or April (please don't yell at me if I'm wrong). Most think they were to be used as either an insert or maybe even the B-side of Vega-tables. I've made a video which contains the 3 versions recorded here:

https://vimeo.com/183229787 (https://vimeo.com/183229787)

The 1st Version is on Harpsichord and contains and electric bass. Mike Love sings the lead on this one.

The 2nd Version is the one found on the Smile Sessions Box set. The whole group sings lead here. The Bass is a stand up.

The 3rd Version is interesting. It's recorded on the same bass used on the 2nd Chorus for Vega-Tables, and this version uses the same background vocals found on the Vega-Tables verse. Another interesting thing is that they use one of the clappers found on the 2nd Chorus right as the take stops (I wish not to imply, just state my opinion [I'll remove it if desired]).

(Please note that none of these versions of With Me Tonight are in order of their recording dates. I apologize for the inconvenience and any confusion that may result from it)

Why are you posting multiple times in your own posts rather than just editing the original?

I don't wish to appear as a tsunami of words.

I think vegetables would have at least had Mission Pak because it fits so well with the bridge

Define bridge.

 


Mama says/Eat a lot

Unless that's the tag in which case that then

That's the chorus. Which one? The slow one or the fast one? Or none in specific

Given it's more polished form, I'll say the version used in the Smile Sessions mix

The Smile Sessions mix uses the faster one for the first chorus, and the slower one for the second chorus.

I've wondered about the two Eat a Lot choruses - did Brian want to have the fast/slow as chorus 1 and 2, or was the slow chorus (chorus 2) meant as a remake of the chorus and it was supposed to be the only chorus for the song?

Realistic?  

I guess the most realistic would be to follow the template of either the April Assembly acetate:
Verse 1
Sleep A Lot (chorus)
Verse 2
Sleep a Lot (chorus)
2nd Chorus

Or it would just literally be the the template of the Smiley Smile version but with April recordings:  
Verse 1
a capella chorus
Part 4 Insert
Ballad Insert
Verse 3

Not too glamorous

But where does With Me Tonight fit?  As an insert (WMT 3 above), or a fade (2 or 3)?  Assuming WMT was planned as part of the song in the first place - thematically it doesn't make much sense.

In my opinion, it isn't a part of Vege-Tables.  It is just it's own song for Smiley Smile in which Brian recycled unused Smile ideas into, specifically the backing vocals arrangement for the middle eight of Vege-Tables. 

I know it's logged as Vege-Tables, but it was slated as "With Me" and listening to the session tapes and rehearsals, there's nothing that connects it to VT... 

Just the initial version which is so short (30 seconds or so) that it seems like it was meant to be part of another song.  Maybe that section was meant to be an "intro" to the longer WMT version?

The "Vege-Tables" Soniclovenoize put together in his "1967 Smile" mix works perfectly for me, and "With Me Tonight" is very much its own song.
But... is Vega-Tables a simple song? To me, with all its alternate versions and sections, it seems almost as mysterious as H & V. Even how it should be really spelled is a mystery!

There's a version on TSS that's 1 and a half minutes that corresponds to the "fast version" I believe.

Wasn't that initial version tracked in June?  The April VT was pretty much dead by then.  If we want to think WMT is a section of Vege-Tables, we need to look at the Smiley Smile VT, which was tracked around the same time.  So while indeed WMT is in the key of E and follows the change and tempo of the middle eight of the April VT, the June VT was slowed down and dropped to the key of D, which WMT doesn't fit into*.  So as I said, anything is possible, but this fact makes it less probable... 

I guess since the initial WMT was short, and then we have a handful of alternate iterations, my imagination tells me that WMT was always meant to be a simple song made up of different modular variations (just like the H&V's Gee/Part 2/Part 3/ part 4 etc). 

*Although, the Smiley version does regress back to the April VTs in E at the end, so it is possible... 


Hey thanks!  :)

Let's sort this out: I seem to be a little confused by the 3rd Verse of Vega-Tables. There's 2 versions of it. I'll illustrate this lyrically:

Version 1
[Vocal Break]
I threw away my Candy Bar and I ate the Wrapper
and when they told me what I did I burst into laughter.

Version 2
I know that you'll feel better when
you send us in your letter and
tell us the name of your-
your favorite Vega-Table.

I threw away my Candy Bar and I ate the Wrapper
and when they told me what I'd done I burst into laughter.


Which versions of the 3rd verse were to be used? Brian overdubbed the 2nd version with a synthesizer for Smiley Smile. Was that that the final version of the 3rd Verse, or was he just rehashing that lyric? What we need are dates on those overdubs. It is interesting to note that the original version of Vega-Tables in '66 pursued the vocal break route. So maybe version 2 was the new idea.

It really doesn't! It's a really interesting piece. I don't know how it could tie in with anything. Vega-Tables makes me think of childhood, vegetables, exercise and silliness. Definitely not being close with a loved one after dark.

One thing that's worth looking at though, is the fact that Version 3 of With Me Tonight is recorded with the same bass that's used in Chorus 2. And at the end of the take, you can even hear someone use the same clappers found in Chorus 2. So I propose the theory that they were recorded on the same day.

Yeah I am counting the wordless scat and "candy bar" lines as Verse 2, and the "Send us your letter" verse as the third verse.  So yes, as you said, the Ballad Insert rehashes the lyrics in Verse 3.  If we are to believe the Smiley Smile template is the template of how the song should go, it's supposed to be rehashed. 

The organ overdub onto Verse 3 was done on June 3rd at Sound Recorders, live as the mono mix was made (as heard on SOT17). 

Yeah, if it wasn't for the SOT release, we would've never known about the the "candy bar" lyrics after the "letter in" verse.

And it's cool that you called it Verse 2. Technically though, it is the 3rd verse since "I'm gonna keep well" is the 2nd verse, but it really doesn't matter since they're so close to together. One of the few places were there's not editing on our part!   :)

Btw, listened to your Vega-Tables mix and I love how you take out the "letter in" vocal reprise after the Part 4 Insert. I've never liked that. It just seems TOO silly to repeat that lyric immediately.

And that organ overdub reminds me of a carnival.

Yeah you are technically right, but I guess I'm looking at it in a modular way, in that it was recorded only to be broken up in pieces and then reassembled again.  Since the first two verses remained together before the chorus (which was going to be replaced with the April 7th First Chorus) I just reduced both to one piece, Verse 1. 

Thanks btw.  I thought it disrupted the flow of the song, that slowly winded down.  But judging from the Smiley Smile version, maybe it was supposed to sound jarring.  idk. 

I was referring to the June WMT's - obviously Brian did a remake for Smiley, but the three different variations from June don't fit together if, as someone has suggested, they were meant to be edited into some sequence like the Heroes Part 2 "sections."

Weren't they all recorded in June? 

I found this on my hard disc, not sure who did this mix (no, it's not Brian's  :) ) but I think that it was from a member of this board. Maybe he'll come forward, it' s very nice mix/mashup of WMT versions! It's not mine, and this is for fun and educational purposes!

http://www.mediafire.com/download/o0q9m1017600c1r/With_Me_Tonight_%28Extended_Mix%29.wav

That is the kind of thing I was referring to.  Very well done, whoever is responsible!

God that is awesome!! Thanks to whoever did that....  :smokin

Hi guys! I was studying the Heroes and Villains recordings known as Part 3, Bag of Tricks and Intro. I wanted to point out some interesting chord changes in them. Like the 3 versions of Wonderful, each different recording is in a different key. The early version of the Intro (slated as Part 3), is in the key of E. Bag of Tricks, I've had trouble deciphering. Its notes don't go up and down like in the Intros, but I know it starts out on a C. And the recording known as the Intro is in the key of F. It goes: F, Bb, F, Bb... a very common chord sequence on the Smile album (Iron Horse and DYLW verses follow this chord pattern).

I find it very interesting that all of these recordings are in different keys. I'd like to present my theories on these recordings, and I'd also LOVE to hear yours!

Heroes and Villains Part 3
Starts out on E and ends on E, which is odd considering the H&V sections are all sharp/flat chords. The box set says it is unknown when this was recorded. They guess it was late December. So this was around the time period where Brian didn't know what was going on Side B of the H&V single. And interesting thing to consider is Part 3's relation with Do a Lot. Both in the keys of E. I assume this was labeled as Part 3 since Cantina at the time was considered Part 2. And in one of the early drafts of H&V, the train vocals at the end of Cantina were to close Side A. So maybe this piece known as Part 3 was suppose to open Side B, and was to be followed by Do A Lot, which was recorded on the 3rd of January.

Bag of Tricks
An extremely interesting piece. I would love if someone could transcribe the notes on the piano for me! I'm pretty sure it starts out on C though. This was recorded during the January 3rd session. An interesting thing to consider is the other compositions recorded on this date. Mission Pak? Tag to Part 1? These are accommodating pieces. Bridge to Indians and Pickup to 3rd Verse are for other compositions (Do You Like Worms and All Day). I think Bag of Tricks has something to do with Do You Like Worms or/and Cabin Essence. Michael Vosse said Do You Like Worms and Cabin Essence were going to go together. I believe Bag of Tricks is some sort of transition piece. The train whistle is very predominant. Maybe this would've come after the first Iron Horse chorus, since the 2nd Iron Horse is followed by the Grand Coolie (which starts with C). Or perhaps Bag of Tricks was suppose to come after the first Bicycle Rider chorus (the one that rings out on C). Maybe it would've transitioned us over to Cabin Essence. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if Bag of Tricks wasn't for the H&V single.

Heroes and Villains Intro
I'll come out with my opinion on this piece first; I highly doubt it was meant for Mrs. O'Leary's Cow. Highly doubt that notion. The chords are F and Bb, nowhere near Fire's D#m5 and F5. Fire ends on G# (at least that's the last note played before the fallout), so this couldn't be a piece after it. I have questions about this piece though: Was this specifically labeled as an Intro? And why was it recorded in March? It couldn't've been for the H&V single. By March nothing in the Single could lead to an F or follow a Bb. Plus the single was pretty much finished either way. That's why I believe this might've been for the album as well. As I suggested with Bag of Tricks, this could perhaps be connected to Do You Like Worms or/and Cabin Essence. Perhaps more so than Bag of Tricks since we have a chord progression that matches both songs.

These are my theories on the Bag of Tricks H&V recordings! Love to hear what you guys think and how you interpret the information!

Has there ever been any mention as to what was suppose to fill in the lyrical gap after the 1st Columnated Ruins Domino in the 1st verse? Was it for an instrumental insert or were the operatic vocals going to take over?

From the sessions Brian wanted the verse at the end to break down, not come to a defined end.  Presumably that mirrored the lyrics.  No indication of any insert, the second verse just starts up after the breakdown.

Brian's piano version ends with the 'Child Is Father of the Man' melody beneath his vocal; thus was the song always written to include CIFOTM on the last section into the fade?

His vocal on the verse also seems to leave space for 'Bygone, Bygone'. In other words, the final production familiar from 1971 seems already implied in the demo.

I thought the melody at the end was what Brian was singing a wordless melody.  Don't hear the Child is Father melody at all, although it certainly fits well over the chords.

The "Child is the Father..." part is all in the piano playing, not Brian's vocal.

H & V intro - yes the tape box is marked Intro, so it doesn't need to follow anything it would start the single - either side A or side B.  Session was for "Part 2."  No one has ever claimed that this was meant for Fire/Mrs. O'Learys Cow - what happened was Mark Linnet's Smile tape from 88 that he put together for consideration for possible release after Brian's 88 solo album put the intro before Fire because Mark thought it fit musically.  Which it does, but lots of things can be put together from Smile and they sound good.  That doesn't mean there was any intention.  Brian liked the combination enough to include it on BWPS.

Part 3 - this early version of the intro is from December.  No side B or Heroes "Part 2" as in side 2 at this time, and probably not until February was something like that considered.  So we have the verses as Part 1 and great shape as Part 2.  This would follow great shape, and I guess lead the way into the fade.  However we also have the fast "my children were raised" from the Heroes December acetate which immediately follows shape, followed by the 3rd verse (survive with the jive).  Then there's the a cappella section which I believe was to be part of the song from very early on - the a cappella section could come after the verses or after the 3rd verse.  But I think we need to at least accept that "healthy wealthy and wise" and the 3rd verse were PART of "Part 2" as on the acetate, so Part 3 would follow it.  Maybe the best sequence is:  Verses/Great Shape/My children were raised/3rd verse/a cappella/Part 3/Barnyard OR Verses/Great Shape/My children/3rd verse/Part 3/a capella/Barnyard.

Bag of Tricks - not sure where you're getting that Bridge to Indians and Pickup to 3rd verse were meant for other songs - all were tracked as for Heroes, including All Day.  Brian was at the same time retooling the "Indians" chorus of Worms as a new "Part 2" to replace Great Shape (the vocals and overdubs recorded were tracked as Heroes sessions), so bridge to Indians would be a transition piece to go from the verses to the "Bicycle Rider" piece.

Merged into one thread.

Thanks for responding on this stuff! I know these are definitely not the most glamorous sections of the Smile project. Having said that, I find that the Intro doesn't work well with Fire at all. Notes aren't the same, neither are the keys. I think we're focussing too much on the sirens in the piece. Fire isn't the only song to have the loud whistles in it. There's Holidays and H&V. However, I'm glad you pointed out the Part 2 Intro thing. I forgot to put that in my post so thanks for updating the board on that. We should also note that on Brian's mono mix of Fire, it fades in with the Fire Sound fx. And remember, Van Dyke said the Elements would flow together based on their sound fx. So I think the Fire crackles would start off the song. Going back to the Part 2 thing; it's frustrating because the only thing that piece has that's relatable to H&V is the whistle at the beginning.

Lately though, I've been trying to figure out recently how Part 2 of H&V would've gone. We know it's Gee-Part 3-____-Part 2 Revised-____-Part 4-_____-Fade. The question is, what would've come after those Ahhhhhs at the end of Part 3 & 2 (Revised)? The Part 2 a cappella recording on the piano. It's the track on the Box set (Disc 2, Track 21). It takes the C# from the end of those sections and lands them on a G# hum. Which is why I think Brian latched on the Swedish frog recording from December onto the Part 3 tape. I think he wanted to do Part 3-Part 2 A Cappella-Barnyard (or maybe perhaps Great Shape). There's never really been any concrete evidence that those pieces were completely removed from H&V. Sure they were moved around but that doesn't really mean they were discarded completely. I could most definitely be wrong though, since on March 2nd an unheard piece called Part II Insert was recorded with Hal, Carol, Lyle and Gene. And the very next day, work on Tones/Tune X began. And an interesting thing about Tune X is that it started out as a basic riff called I Don't Know, which was recorded in January and labeled as Part 2. I'm working on sorting out this information at the moment. I find it all to be extremely interesting. I wonder if Tune X was a replacement for the Side 2 chant recordings. Maybe it was just for the album. I'd love to hear yours and others opinions. One more interesting clue is the hum at the beginning of the Part 4 tape on the box set. At the beginning of the track, you can hear the bleed-off from the headphones. What's interesting is the hum is not G#, but D# (the first chord of all the chant sections). Could it have gone: Part 2 (Revised)-Part 2 a cappella ending on D#-Part 4?


2 Questions:

1) Do we know FOR SURE that the "Stand or fall" lyric was original and not just a Summer '67 inclusion?

2) Do we know FOR SURE that this recording of the Intro in December is just an early version? I'm not sure it could be, since it's in a different key.


I've discussed this somewhere else (I'm pretty sure, I could be wrong [I've explained this a lot]). Bridge to Indians connects H&V and DYLW together. It doesn't lead into just Bike Rider because Bridge to Indians ends on the note of C in a hum (like the Part II Insert works). The note C is not part of the Gm7 chord of Bike Rider. The note C is a part of the F chord in the DYLW verse. Bridge to beaded, cheering Indians behind them. They don't use the hum in thend, they just overdub the hum onto the verse later (with the other background vocals). I've yet to figure out if Brian would've used the bridge twice though (most likely not, then again, who knows?). This video shows how the Bridge works:
https://vimeo.com/182612766 (https://vimeo.com/182612766)

The Pickup to 3rd Verse comes after All Day (Brian plays it on the tape). I'd show this but I haven't figured out how All Day goes yet, otherwise I'd put it together.


Thanks! Somethings are a little jumbled but that's cool.

What I'd like to do at some point is kind of make a SMiLE FAQ read only post (kind of like the vocal contributions thread) as there are so many mysteries related to this time period, and this will make it a bit easier!

Go for it man! We need to preserve these findings for future generations!

There's very little we know FOR SURE about Smile other than what was recorded and when (when we have the tapes in the tape library) and what has been said by the participants in the press back in the day and up to the present.  If you're saying Part 3 is totally unrelated to "Intro" you may be right - the ascending and descending notes sound very similar to me, whether or not there is a key change - Brian changed the key of the Worms Bicycle Rider chorus to make the Heroes single chorus, but kept most of the lyrics and clearly one is a rewrite or new version of the other.  I look at Part 3 and the Intro similarly.  Like Fall Breaks is essentially a retooling/recycling of Bag of Tricks!

Stand or Fall has always been considered a late change - in feb/march the cantina version, with jive to survive, was the 3rd verse.  Brian stopped work on Heroes in the studio March 2 until June, so the stand or Fall likely was written between March and June.  Van had left in March so I've always assumed this lyric was Brian's - we know for an absolute certainty they weren't Mike's because he would have included this song in his songwriting credits lawsuit if he had suggested a word that ended up in the final song!  do we know this was a late change for sure - nope.  Could have been an early lyric by Van that was dropped for the cantina version and resurrected by Brian for the single.  The fact that it doesn't have any Van like qualities and is a little "simpler" than the three score and five suggests it's Brian's work - that three score and five and the internal rhyme of jive to survive both seem typical of Van, the stand and fall and it's all an affair doesn't sound like Van although of course he could write more simply when he wanted to (Wind Chimes, if you believe he wrote those lyrics as he claims- Brian obviously believed him and gave him belated credit).

Big news everyone. As I've suspected, there were indeed lyrics penned for Look and CFM back in the day. We've never heard them because they were never finished. Brian talks about the unfinished lyrics in his new book:

(https://s18.postimg.org/f8cdclh1l/FullSizeRender.jpg)
(https://s18.postimg.org/npbvnilqh/FullSizeRender_3.jpg)
(https://s18.postimg.org/myj5hqjd5/FullSizeRender_2.jpg)

Amazing information about the topics covered in CFM. We've always heard about the "Child of the Man" story from the London reporter, noting the song was about Cowboys. However, Brian seems to've had a totally different eyedea for the song. I'd like to the think the Cowboy and Psychology ideas were mixed together. It sounds amazing and makes me care about the song much more. It wasn't just about cowboys. It was about taking care of your fellow human. That's a really thoughtful topic to sing about.

Now, why haven't we heard these lyrics? It's because they were never finished. Only sections of the songs were penned.

(https://s16.postimg.org/9jhb15bc5/Full_Size_Render_4.jpg)

So Van's departure was a huge nail in the Smile coffin it seems. I always figured Van did his part which is why he left. Seems more that Brian and he had a falling out. Or maybe Van was eager to move on. Totally understand that. It had been a year.

I'd like to hypothesize that the vocal session for I Ran would've been just the background vocals. It could've included the half-finished lyrics, but I doubt it.

Thanks for the heads up on this! Interesting stuff - not a lot of specific detail, understandably, about the CFOTM lyrics, but very interesting nonetheless. The window budges open a few more millimetres.

I just downloaded the kindle version of 'I Am...' and read through the 'Smile' section. I was interested to read in the paragraphs about the end of 'Smile', Wilson's attribution of one key factor as being the final departure of Van Dyke from the project:


This statement is amazingly close to one given by David Anderle in his almost contemporaneous (early '68) interview with Paul Williams for 'Crawdaddy'):


Hope I'm not derailing the thread here, it just seemed an appropriate place to put this observation.

The Karl Menninger connection isn't new, it's been noted in previous Smile accounts, I think the Byron Preiss book or the Rolling Stone 2 part article.  It's too bad Brian doesn't seem to remember any of the original partial lyrics.

The "cowboy" song - I remain convinced that Dennis got confused with the title and was actually playing the reporter Home on the Range, a song he was originally slated to sing.  One could see how a song called Home on the Range could end up being described as a "cowboy" song.

I always do my best to respect and love all opinions about SMiLE. I think it's fair to say that no-one really knows very much in the way of concrete facts about it, even people who were there at the time, because it never got beyond a work in progress. Even Brian's ideas about it were far from nailed down and kept changing. Given that this 'prone to change pending further inspiration' mindset was how he was at the time (just look at how many changes Good Vibrations went through in Summer 1966 when he got fresh ideas...!), and all the other confusion (drug-related, business-related, and otherwise) that was going on his head in 1966-7 anyway, we can't even necessarily trust contemporaneous statements HE made at the time, let alone people like David Anderle and Michael Vosse who were at least one stage removed from the creative process (and possibly also, uh, at least a little befogged, shall we say, when they were listening to tracks and Brian talking about his plans for them). To give an example of what I mean: certainly we hear Brian himself on tape saying 'Prayer' is going to be a little intro to the album, which leads to many SMiLE-O-Philes saying, 'well, at least that's ONE thing we know for sure about the sequencing... we have the big guy himself saying it on tape!'. BUT - that was in Autumn 1966. Brian might have changed his mind about Our Prayer the next day, the next week, and several times after that for all we know. After all, we do know he was certainly extensively recasting and restructuring Heroes and Villains (and very probably other tracks) in a fairly major way in the months following that Prayer session. Why assume the track listing and order was nailed down so early when we know that so many other bits of SMiLE were in serious flux after that date?

So anyway, I accept all of that uncertainty and these days I figure that there isn't really much hope of ever figuring out 'how the album was supposed to go' - and I put that phrase in scare quotes because, like Mark Linett, I reckon that if BW — the man himself — never quite got to the stage of knowing 'how the album was supposed to go', then how can anyone else? Which means that pretty much any opinion can be interesting and worthy of consideration, particularly if you put in the kind of hard musical effort that leetwall97 undoubtedly is throughout this thread.

However, I do think that there is some serious reaching in some of the posts here, and possibly the erroneous association of matters that didn't, or couldn't ever have, belonged together back in 1966-7. Anyone who's looked deeply into SMiLE over the years has done this at some point, myself absolutely included... we all have our pet ideas of how things might have gone based on bits of evidence here and there, conclusions that we've reached that we feel 'sure' about for a while.

By way of example of the 'reaching': I just can't get on board with the suggestion that the above-cited bits of Brian's new book 'prove' that there were lyrics, even unfinished ones, for 'Look' and 'CIFOTM', other than what we hear on the extant tapes. Sure, there may have been, but I don't see those passages from the new book as 'proving' that. Consider EXACTLY what's written:

"Sometimes, we started working on songs and they didn't get very far past instrumentals with no lyrics or at most fragments of lyrics. "Look" was like that. "Child Is Father Of The Man" was like that. It was based on something written by Karl Menninger..." etc etc

"Instrumentals with no lyrics" - well, that perfectly describes Look as it is on the session tapes. "...or at most fragments of lyrics". That perfectly describes CIFOTM as it is on the session tapes — no lyrics on the verses, and just the one phrase repeated in the chorus. So the following sentences, ""Look" was like that. "Child Is Father Of The Man" was like that." could just mean that what we heard on the SMiLE boxed set is all there *ever* was. Sure, we know that there were extra vocals of some kind at some point that were deleted and can be heard as 'headphone bleed' melodies, but perhaps that were just wordless backing vocals — it doesn't mean that there were necessarily more lyrics as such. There have been lots of rumours over the years that there are vintage CIFOTM verse lyrics (or that there were, but they've been forgotten or lost), but I don't know if any of those have any substance to them. And just because Brian and/or Van Dyke had ideas as to what the track was GOING to be about (Menninger's theories, mental health, maybe also the ideas in Wordsworth's poetry...) as per Brian's new book, that doesn't mean that Brian and Van Dyke ever actually got down to writing those verse lyrics to show and develop that theme back then. And if they didn't... that's utterly consistent with what Brian writes in that section too. Once again, consider exactly what's being said here:

"Sometimes, we started working on songs and they didn't get very far past instrumentals with no lyrics [that describes Look as we know it today beautifully...] or at most fragments of lyrics [and that describes CIFOTM as we know it today beautifully]. "Look" was like that. "Child Is Father Of The Man" was like that."

Of course, all of the above is just MY opinion, should be regarded as such and in no way definitive or authoritative (heaven forbid! what right do I have to make those kind of statements...?), and is in no way an attempt to do this thread down, either. For one thing, it's fascinating reading... I feel like I could discuss SMiLE endlessly, if I only had the time, which I really don't these days compared to, say, 1997, when I thought about little else and, yeah, I admit it, spent most of my spare time pondering its possible structure and form.

But I feel like it's not too outrageously out of line to challenge some of the assumptions every now and then. That's all I'm doing here. Hey, the scientific method relies on challenges, right? You have a theory... then some new evidence challenges it, so you adapt and improve your theories. Right, leetwall97?

Huha! It's so sad that this is the rate at which we can learn for this project.


Wow! You could very well be right about the Home on the Range idea! However, nothing lyrically mentions anything cowboy-ish. The track sounds cowboy-ish. But the lyrics are just about farms and wide-open spaces. Then the chorus is about telephone lines and truck drivers. Idk. Maybe the cowboy song was right (for CFM). The subject of knowing when to step in and help and when to back off can be applied to the cowboy experience. You can easily imagine the end of a western.

The lone ranger came into to town and stood up to the bullies, which inspired the villagers to gain back their courage. They ask him not to leave, afraid the bullies would come back. The lone ranger reminds them that it was their combined strength which drove the bullies back, not just himself. The villagers were never weak, they were just afraid and lonely and needed to be reminded that their homes are worth fighting for. And now that the Lone ranger's done that, he can leave the village and ride off into the sunset, searching for another town where hope has been either lost and gone or unknown for a long, long time.

It's a fun idea, but I could be totally wrong. I have a feeling your idea might be correct in the end. Van Dyke acknowledged this in an interview and said that the Psychology idea flew way over his head. So maybe he interpreted it in the cowboy experience. I'll have to sit with it for a while.


Oh yeah that's true. But GVs changes were mainly just different in terms of arrangement. Except for that one version of the Organ part where it sounds Chinese. That was vastly different. Another interesting bit of information about that piece: it has the exact same chords as LSD part 3.


I think H&V grew more than changed. It just got bigger and bigger. I don't think it changed, I think it absorbed the various parts. Remember the Beautiful dreamer doc? In one of the outtakes, Brian's talking about how they made the 3rd suite in 2004 and the interviewer asks Brian if that's how the original Smile was planned. Brian says that they originally planned for Smile to be 2 suites in the 60s. And remember how Brian said in the quote above that 2 of the big corner-songs of the project were Good Vibes and H&V? Well I think both songs form the foundation for the suites of Smile. H&V is really a journey type thing in it's full form. Goes to Bike rider, and Bike rider eventually is suppose to go into Cabin Essence. We get confused by most of these various sections that Brian recorded under the title H&V. But he also said he couldn't remember which SECTIONS went with CE or DYLW. So maybe these various H&V slated sections weren't necessarily connected thematically to H&V, maybe just other parts of H&V.

A theory. One that I'm willing to dispose of.


Thank you so much Matt! That's very sweet of you.


Yeah this upsets me. I wish Linnet would've included the footage where you can hear these bleeds. He's leaving us in situation where we have to take his word for it. I'd love to hear these headphone bleeds. The only headphone bleeds I've found on the Smile box set are the extra overdubs for Friday night and the D# hum at the beginning of H&V part 4.


Exactly! They're just theories! That's all we can do. I find the best evidence for mixes can be found from the Vosse posse and in the music. Sometimes bass notes dictate which piece comes next, sometimes it's vocal notes.

Yes of course I would adapt my theories! It's very foolish to deny evidence. Especially if your plan is to hear what Brian was reaching for.

Van leaving had to have been a devastating blow to the project. And it's no big secret as to whose actions were big part of leading that to happen. Mike's jealousy was a big part of the domino effect. Beyond annoying that he won't just own up to it.

Too bad Mujan no longer posts here...I think you two could have had quite the Smile discussion!

We need Mujan back!

That's funny! I've been compared to Mujan before. I find him a bit assertive in his points, and most of what I've read I've disagreed with. I don't know how old he is, but maybe he's been with this stuff for a long time and feels as if he's learned all he can and has come to terms with it. I don't like how most of his comments are "no's" and "that's incorrect" when someone has a new theory. But I'd love to talk with him. We share the same passion.

tl;dr
I understand his passion, but he talks too much.

i honestly think that whole Barnyard Billy thing is just Brian giving a very basic example of a smile song called Barnyard. I don't ever think Barnyard Billy was a thing at all. Brian was in a strange mental state in 1994 when he said this, he has just gotten out of the 24 hour therapy program. And with I Dont Know, Dennis wrote that

That's always been my impression

Haha. Barnyard Billy. That's not exactly how I'd imagined staring on the forum would be. Yeah that was a dumb thing consider. But, because I tried, now I know it's wrong. I just left Barnyard Billy on barnyard. I think it sounds fine there. I have it go:

Out in the Barnyard the cook is choppin' lumber.
Out in the farmyard the chickens do their number.
Jump in the pig pen, next time I'll take my shoes off.
Stomp the dirt, do two-and-a-half; next time I'll leave my hat on.

Those lyrics start right as Barnyard starts. After, the na na's overtop the background vocals go for a round. Then I bring in Barnyard Billy.

Barnyard Billy loves his chickens.
Barnyard Billy gets his pickin's.

Overtop all of that it sounds solid. I still want to figure out why he sang it in the key of F when barnyard's in G# (that's 3 keys lower than barnyard).

On your remark on I Don't Know, I need evidence. All we know is that Dennis produced and arranged the section. Doesn't mean he wrote it. I would be surprised if he did. Knowing Brian's stupid obsession with astrology and vibrations, he might've gotten paranoid and sent in Dennis to do this section instead. It was labeled Part 2, and recorded in January, right around the time Bike Rider aka H&V Part 2 was overdubbed. If you ask me, it comes after Bike Rider's first ring out, that's why Brian overdubbed a fuzz bass onto Bike Rider.

Here is the credits from The SMile Sessions:

(http://i63.tinypic.com/4izgom.jpg)

And then here's the ASCAP Repertory entry for an "I Don't Know" written by Dennis Wilson:

(http://i66.tinypic.com/9u9e90.png)

Curiously co-written with Kalinich/Jakobson with a note that "Love Remember Me" is an alternate title.  Either this is just coincidence and Dennis had written two pieces called "I Don't Know", or Dennis reused the brief piece "I Don't Know" into "Love Remember Me" for the Bamboo album.  Maybe someone has more information?

Hi everyone! I've got two things I'd like to discuss. The first is the lyrics for the Wind Chimes chorus. The second concerns the Sunny Down Snuff lyrics for Heroes and Villains (my favorite Smile bit!)

1) The Lyrics for the Wind Chimes Chorus
Documentation indicates specifically (luckily for us too), that Brian recorded a lead vocal over the Group's Background harmonies for the Wind Chimes chorus.

We will never know what those lyrics were or how that melody line went.

Having said that, I'm going to try and guess. I'm pulling a melody line from the closest possible thing: Can't Wait Too Long. I'm using the melody line:

Baby you know that I- can't wait forever.
Woke in the night again- we weren't together.

Windows of darkness are- all I can see through.
Searching the shadows- hoping to see you.

Here's an example if you need to hear what I'm getting at:
https://clyp.it/xxtif0bz (https://clyp.it/xxtif0bz)

I think it fits great! So I'm choosing to use it. However I'm not going to use those lyrics. Now I know this is very self-centered of me to ask, but could someone come up with lyrics related to Wind Chimes following that vision? I'm terrible at lyric writing!

2) The Vocals for the Heroes and Villains Prelude to Fade
I'll get right to it. I'm convinced the Sunny Down Snuff lyric was meant to go over this part of the song. If you sing the Background vocals over the Prelude, it's a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious match. I just can't seem to get the rhythm for the lyrics down. The hardest part for me is:

I've been in this town so long...
So long to the city!

That pause in between throws me off. I'd imagine it's just me who has this problem. Can one of you guys show me how those lyrics could fit over the prelude?

great post :)

'The Lyrics for the Wind Chimes Chorus' -  I think the 'whisperin winds' part from the Smiley tag fits too
 
'The Vocals for the Heroes and Villains Prelude to Fade' - the cantina version of 'my children were raised' fits here, the melody even goes up for the bit where it hits 'often'

not claiming to be right but these do work

for WC chorus the 'can't wait too long' melody also fits

I thought I'd bring this up because it fits the discussion.

In the musical explosion at the end of the song, I've always heard the single lyric "We'll grow closer together" for the part beginning at around 2:33 (using the MIC Stereo mix as reference).

I don't know why, but I've always heard that one lyric over that one section.