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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Dunderhead on May 13, 2016, 04:34:51 PM



Title: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Dunderhead on May 13, 2016, 04:34:51 PM
Hello there fellow travelers. I haven't posted here in a while, but some of you might remember me as "Fishmonk,"

Truth be told I haven't listened to The Beach Boys much in the last 2 or 3 years, been busy with other things. And with blogging on other, more interesting parts of the internet. But recently I was induced to once again take up the topic of band, their successes, their failures etc. Now that I have a little more perspective on the band, and am perhaps able to be objective about them, I feel as if I have reached my Ultimate Fan Theory regarding why Smile didn't work.

Smile sucks. When you get right down to it, it's just not that enjoyable to listen to. The material has never been presented in anything more than a barely adequate way. I have listened to every fragment a million times, and truth be told, most of them aren't really listenable in any meaningful sense. Many of the experiments are utter failures, despite their nigh mythical status.

I feel that Brian's primary aim in creating Smile was to impress some of his friends. The only problem with that: Brian's friends considered him to be a bit of a fool, and listening to many of them today, it's clear they never respected him very much. I've emailed with Loren Schwartz, he's an asshole. And given Van Dyke Parks' later-day ingratitude towards Brian Wilson, it's hard not to catch a whiff of some long-festering resentment about his person. He was always a bit of a mooch, creatively. He associated with many talented musicians and songwriters, but never amounted to particularly much. As bad as Smile is, Song Cycle is much worse, and Van Dyke has struggled to eek out a legacy using it.

Van Dyke is an old Southern aristocrat at heart. One gets the impression that much of his artistic and public persona is stolen from Truman Capote. One often hears that he was a musical prodigy, and that he played violin for Einstein as a child. In his mind, he is the true creative, not Brian. He was the genius, not Brian. Brian wasn't smart enough to be a genius. And I think that's a sentiment that some of Brian's Smile-era friends shared, that Brian was a bit of dunce. It is almost embarrassing how hard Brian tried to impress these people.

Brian's friends during the Smile Sessions were some pretty insufferable people. Brian wasn't hanging out on the Strip, with Buffalo Springfield and Love. He surrounded himself with industry people and wannabes. They were pretentious. I mean, can you imagine wanting to be friends that badly with Curt Boettcher or somebody like that? If you ever listen to the discography of someone like Gary Usher, there's a really weird vibe of sanitized mysticism. It's incredibly lame stuff. There's a novelty factor that makes it enjoyable, sure. But is it 'cool'? No way.

Here's what I really think happened during the Smile era. Brian became enamored of a bunch of hipster-losers, and then he paid them all to be his friends. They all thought he wasn't truly capable of 'getting it,' in the way that they were, and came to deeply resent his influence upon their lives. Brian, with all his might, tried to tune in, or whatever. He tried to 'get it,' he wanted to be hip. But he's just too naive a person, and the whole scene that he wanted to be a part of so badly was simply too cynical in its constitution for him to ever enter very naturally into it.

Really what I'm saying is: these people Brian courted possessed no substantive beliefs other than an affected contempt for everything 'uncool'. Brian wanted to be cool, and they probably thought it was fun to perpetually label everything that he did 'uncool' in order to torment him. With Smile he wanted to make something that appealed to these people, this was his true and core audience. Smile was never made for the world at large, it was made for his immediate circle of dependents. Commercial success was only once factor that Brian thought might impress these people, because they leaned towards being industry types.

The problem came about because Brian really looked to them for help work shopping ideas, and they frankly weren't good at that, despite all being promoters and producers and wannabes.

Consider this: We take other people's words over Brian's. Why is there an Element Suite? I ask you. Because one of Brian's friends intimated that there was. These aren't Brian's ideas, they were often concocted out of discussions. Brian asked them "is this cool? what should I do? what's cool?" and they fed him a constant stream of lame brained ideas. At the end of the day, you can construct anything out of that. It's a fool's errand.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Lonely Summer on May 13, 2016, 04:41:11 PM
Wow, can't wait to see the backlash to this post. ::)


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered on May 13, 2016, 04:41:58 PM
COMMENCE DRAMA IN 5...4...3...2...


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Dunderhead on May 13, 2016, 04:44:56 PM
This is my genuine belief and final word on the topic.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: You Kane, You Commanded, You Conquered on May 13, 2016, 04:45:55 PM
This is my genuine belief and final word on the topic.
And that's fine, I'm just not sure this thread will end well...


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Smilin Ed H on May 13, 2016, 04:50:06 PM
Give me FRiends any day.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Dunderhead on May 13, 2016, 04:51:09 PM
Give me FRiends any day.

Right on brother. I'm with you.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on May 13, 2016, 05:36:39 PM
Have to admit, I find the Vosse Posse and people around the time of Smile who supposedly played big role in its history and influence extremely overrated. Yes, I read lengthy detailed posts from, I think, Mr. Mott and guitarfool, with buddhahat maybe thrown in but with due respect to their scholarship and various books and articles backing it, I disagree.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Misterlou on May 13, 2016, 06:33:42 PM
Smile sucks. When you get right down to it, it's just not that enjoyable to listen to. The material has never been presented in anything more than a barely adequate way. I have listened to every fragment a million times, and truth be told, most of them aren't really listenable in any meaningful sense. Many of the experiments are utter failures, despite their nigh mythical status.

To each his own. I find no common ground with you in regards to your dislike of Smile, feeling it equals and even surpasses the mythical status afforded it over the years. Every once in a while a contrarian view resonates with me, but this isn't one of those times. I agree with Henry Rollins, who said that Smile is so "astonishingly good you might find yourself just staring at your speakers in unguarded wonder, as I have." I am sad for people that can't see the beauty and greatness in songs like Our Prayer, Heroes and Villains, Do You Like Worms, Cabin Essence, Wonderful, Child is Father of the Man, Surf's Up, Vegetables, Wind Chimes, Love to Say Dada, or Good Vibrations. I also don't believe for a second that Brian was a puppet of any sort, or kowtowing to the "in" crowd. I think Brian cared far more about the music than the motley crue.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Cyncie on May 13, 2016, 07:01:39 PM
 I don't agree that "Smile sux." In fact, Smile reminds me of Aaron Copland and that kind of Americana art certainly does not Hoover anything. I also don't agree that none of it was Brian's idea. I think Brian got excited about doing something different, and went in a direction that, maybe, he wasn't quite sure of at the time. I think that direction took some detours in the creative process, but that's what creativity is like and I think it was basically Brian's direction.

I do agree that Brian surrounded himself with a bunch of pretentious "artiste" wannabes. And, that little group includes Daro and the ever (around here, anyway) idolized Van Dyke Parks. I also agree that Brian was trying to emulate, to some extent, these posers and really couldn't,  because hipsterism depends on a feigned cynicism and "irony," that Brian, a simple kid from Hawthorne, just couldn't call up. It just isn't in him. Even now, if you look at social media you can compare the veiled contempt so often tweeted out by Parks to Brian's often childlike responses in interviews. That guy would never fit in with the scoffing elitist hip set.

But, I think he did want to fit in. And, I do think Brian genuinely longed to create something more important in an artistic way. And, I do think the posers and hangers on fed him ideas and "critique."  But, it was ultimately up to Brian to sort through those ideas, reject the ones that didn't work, and pull together the ones that worked. Pet Sounds Brian was fully capable of doing that.  Maybe there was some pressure to impress the artsy set. And maybe that was one of the pressures that led to Smile's demise, along with record label pressure, band pressure, internal pressure, dad pressure, etc. The "goose that laid the golden egg" was being pulled in a lot of directions.

But, in the long run, no matter what other issues came into play, it all came down to one thing: no matter what Brian, or Parks, or Capitol or Murry, or the Beach Boys, or the posers wanted Smile to be, it wasn't going to happen.

 Why? Because Brian Wilson was breaking down and nothing anyone could do could stop that or change it.



Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Emily on May 13, 2016, 08:16:48 PM
The Smile music surpassed my expectations and hopes. I think it's brilliant.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 13, 2016, 08:17:51 PM
Yeah BW is a genius! Smile is nothing like anything before or since!


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 13, 2016, 09:23:02 PM

But, in the long run, no matter what other issues came into play, it all came down to one thing: no matter what Brian, or Parks, or Capitol or Murry, or the Beach Boys, or the posers wanted Smile to be, it wasn't going to happen.

 Why? Because Brian Wilson was breaking down and nothing anyone could do could stop that or change it.



I humbly disagree. Never say never.  I'm not convinced the technical or emotional challenges to the project were absolutely insurmountable.

I've said it before and I've said it again. IMO... if his bandmates would have been able to have an exceptionally forward-thinking response to Brian's emotional problems affecting the SMiLE project's completion...and if they all (including Mike) banded together with the sole, selfless goal of unconditionally supporting Brian's vision, without (very human) things like jealousy, fatigue, and exasperation setting in... offering their help with the painstaking time-consuming gruntwork portions of editing and splicing tapes (thus relieving Brian of some of these duties), not ever getting in the way of Brian and VDP's work, and making absolute, Herculean efforts to be a complete and total support system to Brian (much like his modern day band seems to do)... if they would have done those things, I'm convinced there could have been a *shot* that the project could have been completed and released, and thus I think the aftereffect could have been that Brian's emotional state wouldn't have gone nearly as far off the deep end as it eventually did.

The way Darian was Brian's musical secretary? Let's say instead of haranguing VDP about lyrics, Mike read a book about removing sarcasm from his persona, and then offered his sincere help with the musical secretarial task, paired with Carl. Yes, they'd have been absent a laptop. But steps could still have been taken that I'm convinced could have made a difference.

If The BBs recognized just how VITALLY important it was for the increasingly fragile VDP/Brian relationship to stay intact (instead of contributing to jealous fits that helped drive a wedge beyond repair), and made unconditional efforts to do whatever they could to keep that VDP/Brian relationship smoothly running... let's just say these types of actions would certainly not have *hurt* Brian's emotional state. This wouldn't have cured Brian of all of his long-festering problems certainly, but I think the major breakdowns that happened the way they did wouldn't necessarily have happened in the form that they did, if at all necessarily. SMiLE not getting finished and released was no small part of that; a noose around Brian's neck.

And I'm not saying that Brian's mates didn't in fact show Brian a ton of support for the project - they did, despite lots of understandable, yet unfortunate concurrent negative vibes that surely were there polluting Brian's mindset. When trying to create music, artists absolutely THRIVE on the full support and lack of negative vibes around them. This is a fact. Brian needed that - so, so badly. He deserved better. I'm not trying to point fingers, only to say that his mates tried their best, the best way they knew how in 1966/67, the way many other young, rich, 20-something guys would have done in the same situation. But there could have been a better way...

Would my hypothetical best-case scenario have been an atypical manner for guys in a band to act? Yes, surely it would have been. Doesn't mean it was impossible. By all accounts, it should have been impossible for Brian to write as many incredibly gorgeous songs as he did in the compressed periods of time that he did in the 1960s, but Brian did the impossible. So could the guys have gone that incredible extra mile for Brian and the project, while tabling their understandable emotions.  Still, I'll be the first to admit that this would have been highly unlikely to have occurred considering some of the personalities that were in the band at the time, and the fact that nobody had a crystal ball. It would have been hard, but it's not like it would have been walking-on-water impossible.  But I refuse to believe that *NOTHING* could have been done to change it. Give me a time machine. I'll go and talk some sense into The Boys, and we'll see what happens.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: The Shift on May 13, 2016, 11:01:34 PM
Namaste Dunderhead/Fishmonk,

I reckon the story of Smile is a multilayered cake, each horizontal sponge layer of which is just a wee part of the truth. Your take on it, above, I recognise, absolutely. But it's only one of those parts.

Yes, I can see a truth in the idea that at times Brian was trying to impress the hipsters drawn to him by the smell of money, free hash. But I also think he was so absorbed by the music pouring out of him that he wouldn't have let it be diluted by any such desire to impress them. I think he wanted to be part of that crowd - and let's face it, he was - but I don't think the music was ever secondary.

Because the music, even the wee snippets, is incredible.

I also agree with Century Deprived that Smile was not unsalvagable. I don't think it could have been saved by the band alone though; if Brian had been willing to work alongside Carl and Steve Desper around the time of the 20/20 album, I reckon we could have had a finished Smile of some incredible magnitude and magnificence - that's the point at which the necessary elements had aligned for it to work, all except Brian's own engagement. Want evidence? The version of Cabinessence, started by Brian and completed by Carl and Desper. The version of Our Prayer, started by Brian and completed by Carl and Desper. The version of Cool Cool Water, started by Brian and completed by Carl and Desper. The version of Surf's Up, started by Brian and completed by Carl and Desper…

Just my own thoughts, and possibly another layer of that cake o' truth :)


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: buddhahat on May 14, 2016, 12:28:38 AM
I enjoyed your perspective, Dunderhead, and it's good to see you back.

Nobody doubts that Brian was in awe of this hipster crowd and that some of the motivation behind Smile was an attempt to impress these people and their ilk. But if  you're suggesting that Brian trying to impress others might somehow diminish his talents, I'd argue that his greatest songwriting is built on exactly this i.e. trying to win Murry's recognition.

Plus one only has to have ears and a copy of Cabinessence to know that Brian and VDP were doing incredible things during this period.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Mr. Verlander on May 14, 2016, 03:58:03 AM
Everybody knows that Mike is the reason SMiLE never came out.

(I just wanted to be the first person to say this, because everyone knows that it's coming at some point).


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 14, 2016, 08:07:00 AM
Everybody knows that Mike is the reason SMiLE never came out.

(I just wanted to be the first person to say this, because everyone knows that it's coming at some point).

Contributing factor. Not the reason.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Douchepool on May 14, 2016, 08:30:27 AM
I don't doubt for a minute that Brian was out to impress when he made Smile. This is nothing new. He's always been out to impress and grab someone's attention with his music. Whether he wanted to impress his fellow Beach Boys, Murry, the Beatles, or even the hangers-on during Smile, Brian has always thrived on the reaction of others to his music. I don't think that necessarily dilutes the value of Smile as it exists in a state of myriad fragments since we have no idea what Smile would have been in 1967. I'm more inclined to pin the cancellation of Smile on Brian just being stressed beyond belief at the time, given the Capitol lawsuit, internal problems with the band, the formation of Brother Records, possibly the usage of drugs, and of course the daunting task of figuring out how all of the Smile music fit together. Brian's always had "new best friends" in his music making process, from Gary Usher to Joe Thomas. While Brian always seemed to move on from previous collaborators, the new best friends during the Smile period moved on from him. In all of his desire to be cutting edge, the people around him just disappearing one by one must have been a crushing blow.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Bill30022 on May 14, 2016, 08:38:20 AM
I believe that SMiLE fell apart because Brian was trying to go to the moon in a P51 Mustang.

All the other drama is fallout from that.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: c-man on May 14, 2016, 08:56:56 AM
I've always felt various pieces of SMiLE (all of them, really, but some more so) are freakin' brilliant, yet as a whole, cohesive work, it pales compared to Pet Sounds or other less ambitious albums like Friends. Looking at the original sessions, the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts, and I believe that's because Brian painted himself into an artistic corner that he couldn't get out of - which is the main reason he chose to abandon it. Once BWPS was unveiled, it made a bit more sense as a whole, but only through the lens of knowing that Brian was looking back from the vantage point of his later years to the fractured, acid-influenced (yet still brilliant) ambition of his youth.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on May 14, 2016, 09:04:39 AM
The part of Dunderhead's theory that I agree with is, yes, Brian was out to impress his friends and others. But, I always considered that a positive, not a negative. In those days Brian was very competitive, whether it be in regard to Spector, The Beatles, to show his father, to hear his songs on the radio, or just to "perform" something at the dinner table with friends. But, again, that was a good thing.

In regard to the "posse", I think it was more of Brian influencing them and telling them what to do than the other way around, at least musically. I think David Anderle said it best, and I'm paraphrasing, "Be as creative as you can, nothing is too 'out there', as long as it's good". And, most of the SMiLE music is great.

Other than Van Dyke Parks' exit, I don't know if Brian's "friends" leaving had a lot to do with Brian scrapping SMiLE. They already made their contributions, and judging by history, friends of Brian didn't hang around that long anyway. We've heard several reasons now - from Brian directly - about why he didn't release SMiLE, but I never heard or read it was because of...people leaving. But, you never know.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Don Malcolm on May 14, 2016, 09:28:34 AM
I think what Fishmonk/Dunderhead has written is in many ways the logical outcome of what he had written in a more abstract way during the years he frequented the board. Do I agree with it? Partially, but in a more measured way, more in the sense of what he'd written a few years back...the intimation that SMiLE was simultaneously a breakthrough and a dead end.

I personally prefer the Fishmonk who (rightly, IMO) rhapsodized about "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" as Brian's peak than the Dunderhead who represents much too concentrated a version of the cynical side of his personality, which, when applied to the events and time frames involving the SMiLE project, creates a scenario that is historically inaccurate.

By the fall of '66, Brian had worked through his various demons vis-a-vis "Good Vibrations" and had gotten the song into the pipeline despite the pressures and head-scratching from all the factions that had been coalescing. The massive success of "GV" which then followed was actually a major complicating factor for everyone, rather than a resolution, because Brian became convinced of something akin to a mystical dimension in modular composition, which rapidly led him down a rabbit hole.

The pure problem of SMiLE in early '67 had nothing to do with the hipsters, IMO. It had to do with the immense pressure to top "GV" which had raised the stakes to an elevation of Mt. Everest-type proportions. After the dust-up over the "Cabinessence" lyrics and what appears to be some analogous negativity regarding "Surf's Up" (remember that these songs were abandoned during the latter stages of SMiLE production in favor of "H&V," "Vegetables" and "Dada" and were conspicuous in their absence from Smiley Smile), Brian looked for a way to salvage the project by creating a single that could meet expectations after "GV." That led to the marathon dance that was "Heroes & Villains."

The irony, of course, is that the Beatles scored a staggering world triumph with Sergeant Pepper, an LP that did not have a song released from it as a single. Could that have been the case for SMiLE? The problem for Brian was that Pet Sounds had not proven to be a world-beater commercially, as its advances were resisted both internally and by the record company, causing it to lag in sales, whereas the Beatles' Revolver, an impressive but far less cohesive album, had no problem keeping the Beatles' commercial momentum intact.

No such luck for Brian, and with his two greatest achievements in the SMiLE era pushed aside by the various internecine intrigues, it is certainly true that the SMiLE era really did suck. Not the music, but rather the course of events, the whole miasma that took over the production and inexorably pushed into oblivion and a hasty, surreal echo of itself in Smiley Smile. That Smiley is still a haunting, often staggeringly beautiful record belies the idea that the music was the product of committee-by-hipster. It's just that Brian found a simpler way to reconstruct much of what he had been doing earlier, using that Baldwin organ, and for the next couple of years he would create new genres of "Beach Boys" music with it as the focal point.


I also agree with Century Deprived that Smile was not unsalvagable. I don't think it could have been saved by the band alone though; if Brian had been willing to work alongside Carl and Steve Desper around the time of the 20/20 album, I reckon we could have had a finished Smile of some incredible magnitude and magnificence - that's the point at which the necessary elements had aligned for it to work, all except Brian's own engagement. Want evidence? The version of Cabinessence, started by Brian and completed by Carl and Desper. The version of Our Prayer, started by Brian and completed by Carl and Desper. The version of Cool Cool Water, started by Brian and completed by Carl and Desper. The version of Surf's Up, started by Brian and completed by Carl and Desper…


Of course SMiLE was salvagable. But we can understand why Brian didn't want to do it at the time. Let's also distinguish a bit more by what "completed" means in the specific context of these songs. "Prayer" has more vocal parts added. "Cabinessence" has Carl's lead vocal and Dennis' countermelody in "Iron Horse." These are not major additions in the sense that new musical ideas are being applied. More is done to "Surf's Up"--many engineering effects added to smooth transition from Part 1 to Part 2, and the grafting of "Child" to the end--decisions that clearly go beyond Brian's originally authorial possession. "Cool Cool Water" is something else entirely--a track that captures a snippet from a SMiLE session the way people use to capture insects in amber, surrounded by various permutations of wonderfully-executed but not especially adventurous harmony passages. It really shouldn't be cited as an example here, as it's more akin to a track like "Can't Wait Too Long" except for the fact that they actually finished it/released it.

I think that once Brian had found a way to recreate the BBs while sitting at his Baldwin organ, any thought that may have been circulating that he would go back and reconstruct SMiLE was something he tossed away. It would be so much easier just to stay at home and have the boys do more of the work (which was what they wanted, anyway...) than to go out and expend all that energy--when, instead, he could be busy doin' nothing. Or, at least, a lot less.

Of course, that type of thinking often leads to depression, drug use, and more demons. The great news is that Brian (with a little help from his friends, many years later) was able to create a viable version of SMiLE that is satisfying and brilliant enough to minimize the fact that it's a work (as it as always was) with peaks and valleys. We should be happy to have it because of the great beaury it contains, despite it being a retrospective re-imagining, because it's something that allowed Brian to exorcise a lot of pain and regret by lifting the terrible weight of history that had been on his shoulders for so long.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: JK on May 14, 2016, 10:24:16 AM
We should be happy to have [BWPS] because of the great beauty it contains, despite it being a retrospective re-imagining, because it's something that allowed Brian to exorcise a lot of pain and regret by lifting the terrible weight of history that had been on his shoulders for so long.

This.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Cyncie on May 14, 2016, 12:55:22 PM

But, in the long run, no matter what other issues came into play, it all came down to one thing: no matter what Brian, or Parks, or Capitol or Murry, or the Beach Boys, or the posers wanted Smile to be, it wasn't going to happen.

 Why? Because Brian Wilson was breaking down and nothing anyone could do could stop that or change it.



I humbly disagree. Never say never.  I'm not convinced the technical or emotional challenges to the project were absolutely insurmountable.

I've said it before and I've said it again. IMO... if his bandmates would have been able to have an exceptionally forward-thinking response to Brian's emotional problems affecting the SMiLE project's completion...and if they all (including Mike) banded together with the sole, selfless goal of unconditionally supporting Brian's vision, without (very human) things like jealousy, fatigue, and exasperation setting in... offering their help with the painstaking time-consuming gruntwork portions of editing and splicing tapes (thus relieving Brian of some of these duties), not ever getting in the way of Brian and VDP's work, and making absolute, Herculean efforts to be a complete and total support system to Brian (much like his modern day band seems to do)... if they would have done those things, I'm convinced there could have been a *shot* that the project could have been completed and released, and thus I think the aftereffect could have been that Brian's emotional state wouldn't have gone nearly as far off the deep end as it eventually did.

Actually, i do agree with you on this. I meant, however, that in the existing context, Smile wasn't going to happen. Not because Brian was trying to impress the hipsters, but because he was ill. Had others been supportive, we would have seen another story.



Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Peter Reum on May 15, 2016, 02:43:59 AM
I think Smile is left open for interpretation by its listeners. In attending the premier, I can say that as a piece of music in three movements, it is sequenced in a form that is dazzling. The second movement is brilliant. The other two movements are inspired  as well. It does not hit some Beach Boy listeners as finished. There is room for interpretation. I would examine every piece of Smile in its creative time. It definitely moved me in ways that no other Brian music can, including his other pieces that are long form. Long may it present itself as a piece for performance that now exists, regardless of its part  in music categories that become blurred in an experimental piece like Smile.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: John Stivaktas on May 15, 2016, 03:51:49 AM
You do realise that Metacritic took an aggregate review score of Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE and The SMiLE Sessions, 7 years later. They scored 97 and 96 out of 100 respectively. I have listened to hours and hours of SMiLE music for the last 25 years and I can't recall thinking any of it was anything less than brilliant, even the small fragments that were recorded and discarded. Your viewpoint is very much in the minority, contrarian and cannot be even for one minute taken seriously.

What really matters is this...the fact that SMiLE did not see release in 1967 remains a tragedy, both personally for Brian Wilson and for the Beach Boys as recording artists. Its release would have cemented their critical success that began with Beach Boys Today! and continued through to Pet Sounds. Try to understand that Brian Wilson gave it his all, as a member of the Beach Boys, as a recording artist, as musician, songwriter, producer, arranger....by 1967 he had nothing left. What I feel is that few people around him could empathise with his workload. Perhaps his friends were taken in with the notion that he was a gravy train with no end. History proved them wrong.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Cam Mott on May 15, 2016, 05:11:42 AM
SMiLE theories are like a**holes, we are all one.   ;)


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: c-man on May 15, 2016, 07:42:34 AM
SMiLE theories are like a**holes, we are all one.   ;)

Umm, shouldn't that be we all HAVE one?  :)


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Cam Mott on May 15, 2016, 07:49:38 AM
SMiLE theories are like a**holes, we are all one.   ;)

Umm, shouldn't that be we all HAVE one?  :)

No.  ;D


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: wilsonart1 on May 15, 2016, 07:52:20 AM
Fishhead or MonkDunder, did I get that wrong?  Hope you never come to bat with the bases loaded and game on the line.
 .


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: sockittome on May 15, 2016, 08:24:07 AM
I've been trying to think of a polite way to respond to DunderMonk's initial post (as if politeness really matters around here!)  Sounds to me like somebody has gotten burned out on SMiLE and perhaps needs to move on to something else.  I've been listening to my favorite stereo fanmix for years and it is still as breathtaking as the first time I heard it.  I could never NOT be completely amazed by it, no matter what mood I'm in.

But I shouldn't have to defend my love for SMiLE.  It's all a matter of opinion and taste.

DM takes up a lot of space talking about what was going on with Brian at the time he was working on this masterpiece.  There are so many versions of the story, so much myth, so much mis-remembering from some people who were there, all sprinkled in with the little bit of proven fact....it's hard to know what to believe.  Our resident Beach Boys researchers most likely have the best idea of what took place (are there any left on this board?)

The bottom line is, the story behind SMiLE should not affect someone's enjoyment of the work.  The proof is in the work itself.  I never perceived SMiLE as brilliant merely because everyone else was saying it was so.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Bicyclerider on May 15, 2016, 11:18:04 AM
Dunderhead takes the germ of a good idea - Brian was trying to impress his friends - and then goes over the top with it. 

Van Dyke considered himself the genius, not Brian?  Ridiculous,nothing to support this.  In fact Van Dyke has always credited Brian with 100 % of the music of Smile, and has always praised Brian as a composer and songwriter until perhaps the last few years - don't want to get into why that might be, probably more to do with Van Dyke's situation than anything to do with Brian.  At the time there was no evidence Van Dyke considered himself "above" Brian, quite the contrary.

The "industry people" Brian surrounded himself were not all "Wannabees" - for example David Anderle was an accomplished "industry" person who didn't need Brian to achieve success.

I see no evidence the Posse Vosse "labelled everything he did "uncool" - in fact the music Brian was making was blowing their minds, and was the new definition of cool.  Some in the Vosse Posse resented the way Brian treated them - basically as playtoys available at all times to indulge his every whim, musical or otherwise - and Van Dyke was subject to this as well.  But no one was holding a gun to their heads to make them stay - and Van Dyke left twice.  Brian actually didn't care about being "cool" when a new inspiration or idea came into his head - although ultimately Dunderhead is right that he wanted the "cool" people to dig his music - and that's not just the Vosse Posse, but the Beatles and the general public as well. 

Why is there an Elements suite?  Because Brian came up with the idea, NOT because one of his friends said so - don't understand where you get the concept someone else made Brian think of The Elements.  It wasn't Van Dyke who was never particularly supportive of the Elements suite idea and has said he had nothing to do with those sessions.

Brian's ideas were concocted out of discussions - yeah, sure, just as they were with Tony Asher for Pet Sounds.  Nothing sinister or strange about that.  Musically it seems almost everything came from Brian - but lyrics and lyrical themes no doubt came from Van Dyke and Van Dyke's discussions with his and Brian's hangers-on about American imperialism, revolutions and youth changing society, American history as a theme to counter the British-centric music scene, etc. 


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Tacos on May 15, 2016, 03:54:19 PM
Smile sucks. When you get right down to it, it's just not that enjoyable to listen to. The material has never been presented in anything more than a barely adequate way. I have listened to every fragment a million times, and truth be told, most of them aren't really listenable in any meaningful sense. Many of the experiments are utter failures, despite their nigh mythical status.

To each his own. I find no common ground with you in regards to your dislike of Smile, feeling it equals and even surpasses the mythical status afforded it over the years. Every once in a while a contrarian view resonates with me, but this isn't one of those times. I agree with Henry Rollins, who said that Smile is so "astonishingly good you might find yourself just staring at your speakers in unguarded wonder, as I have." I am sad for people that can't see the beauty and greatness in songs like Our Prayer, Heroes and Villains, Do You Like Worms, Cabin Essence, Wonderful, Child is Father of the Man, Surf's Up, Vegetables, Wind Chimes, Love to Say Dada, or Good Vibrations. I also don't believe for a second that Brian was a puppet of any sort, or kowtowing to the "in" crowd. I think Brian cared far more about the music than the motley crue.

Well said.
Been listening to versions of Smile regularly for 20+ years and it still blows my mind every time. To me it's a miracle. Never gets old.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: 18thofMay on May 15, 2016, 04:34:57 PM
Ahhhh Fishmonk..... It's been a while!


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: pixletwin on May 15, 2016, 07:29:03 PM
I think Smile is left open for interpretation by its listeners. In attending the premier, I can say that as a piece of music in three movements, it is sequenced in a form that is dazzling. The second movement is brilliant. The other two movements are inspired  as well. It does not hit some Beach Boy listeners as finished. There is room for interpretation. I would examine every piece of Smile in its creative time. It definitely moved me in ways that no other Brian music can, including his other pieces that are long form. Long may it present itself as a piece for performance that now exists, regardless of its part  in music categories that become blurred in an experimental piece like Smile.


Point for point, I agree with Peter.

I remember Fishmonk. Good to see you back, however briefly.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: SteveMC on May 16, 2016, 02:42:17 PM
I just want to say I'm very impressed with your analysis. In totality, I also never liked Smiley Smile or Smile Redux though I always loved Wonderful with Carl's vocals and With Me Tonight. Surfs Up is incredible.

Pet Sounds is the masterpiece, fully realized.



Hello there fellow travelers. I haven't posted here in a while, but some of you might remember me as "Fishmonk,"

Truth be told I haven't listened to The Beach Boys much in the last 2 or 3 years, been busy with other things. And with blogging on other, more interesting parts of the internet. But recently I was induced to once again take up the topic of band, their successes, their failures etc. Now that I have a little more perspective on the band, and am perhaps able to be objective about them, I feel as if I have reached my Ultimate Fan Theory regarding why Smile didn't work.

Smile sucks. When you get right down to it, it's just not that enjoyable to listen to. The material has never been presented in anything more than a barely adequate way. I have listened to every fragment a million times, and truth be told, most of them aren't really listenable in any meaningful sense. Many of the experiments are utter failures, despite their nigh mythical status.

I feel that Brian's primary aim in creating Smile was to impress some of his friends. The only problem with that: Brian's friends considered him to be a bit of a fool, and listening to many of them today, it's clear they never respected him very much. I've emailed with Loren Schwartz, he's an asshole. And given Van Dyke Parks' later-day ingratitude towards Brian Wilson, it's hard not to catch a whiff of some long-festering resentment about his person. He was always a bit of a mooch, creatively. He associated with many talented musicians and songwriters, but never amounted to particularly much. As bad as Smile is, Song Cycle is much worse, and Van Dyke has struggled to eek out a legacy using it.

Van Dyke is an old Southern aristocrat at heart. One gets the impression that much of his artistic and public persona is stolen from Truman Capote. One often hears that he was a musical prodigy, and that he played violin for Einstein as a child. In his mind, he is the true creative, not Brian. He was the genius, not Brian. Brian wasn't smart enough to be a genius. And I think that's a sentiment that some of Brian's Smile-era friends shared, that Brian was a bit of dunce. It is almost embarrassing how hard Brian tried to impress these people.

Brian's friends during the Smile Sessions were some pretty insufferable people. Brian wasn't hanging out on the Strip, with Buffalo Springfield and Love. He surrounded himself with industry people and wannabes. They were pretentious. I mean, can you imagine wanting to be friends that badly with Curt Boettcher or somebody like that? If you ever listen to the discography of someone like Gary Usher, there's a really weird vibe of sanitized mysticism. It's incredibly lame stuff. There's a novelty factor that makes it enjoyable, sure. But is it 'cool'? No way.

Here's what I really think happened during the Smile era. Brian became enamored of a bunch of hipster-losers, and then he paid them all to be his friends. They all thought he wasn't truly capable of 'getting it,' in the way that they were, and came to deeply resent his influence upon their lives. Brian, with all his might, tried to tune in, or whatever. He tried to 'get it,' he wanted to be hip. But he's just too naive a person, and the whole scene that he wanted to be a part of so badly was simply too cynical in its constitution for him to ever enter very naturally into it.

Really what I'm saying is: these people Brian courted possessed no substantive beliefs other than an affected contempt for everything 'uncool'. Brian wanted to be cool, and they probably thought it was fun to perpetually label everything that he did 'uncool' in order to torment him. With Smile he wanted to make something that appealed to these people, this was his true and core audience. Smile was never made for the world at large, it was made for his immediate circle of dependents. Commercial success was only once factor that Brian thought might impress these people, because they leaned towards being industry types.

The problem came about because Brian really looked to them for help work shopping ideas, and they frankly weren't good at that, despite all being promoters and producers and wannabes.

Consider this: We take other people's words over Brian's. Why is there an Element Suite? I ask you. Because one of Brian's friends intimated that there was. These aren't Brian's ideas, they were often concocted out of discussions. Brian asked them "is this cool? what should I do? what's cool?" and they fed him a constant stream of lame brained ideas. At the end of the day, you can construct anything out of that. It's a fool's errand.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: SteveMC on May 16, 2016, 02:50:26 PM
That's a logical fallacy.
Argumentum ad populum– concluding an argument is true simply because lots of people think it’s true. We see this on commercials all the time: “9 out of 10 doctors recommend Acme Brand Toothpaste,” or “3 million Brand X Customers Can’t be Wrong! Buy Brand X Today.”

Other's people's/critic's ratings doesn't actually prove it's quality but I respect that you love SMiLE.

//rock onwards dunder

You do realise that Metacritic took an aggregate review score of Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE and The SMiLE Sessions, 7 years later. They scored 97 and 96 out of 100 respectively.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on May 16, 2016, 04:21:35 PM
I for one think Smile is the greatest collection of music ever put together in pop music! And no one is paying me to say that! I'm not even Brian's friend! But it is my real opinion on the matter!


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Lonely Summer on May 18, 2016, 06:23:00 PM
I just want to say I'm very impressed with your analysis. In totality, I also never liked Smiley Smile or Smile Redux though I always loved Wonderful with Carl's vocals and With Me Tonight. Surfs Up is incredible.

Pet Sounds is the masterpiece, fully realized.

Sunflower is the masterpiece.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: sockittome on May 18, 2016, 07:24:37 PM
I just want to say I'm very impressed with your analysis. In totality, I also never liked Smiley Smile or Smile Redux though I always loved Wonderful with Carl's vocals and With Me Tonight. Surfs Up is incredible.

Pet Sounds is the masterpiece, fully realized.

Sunflower is the masterpiece.
:ohyeah


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: RangeRoverA1 on May 18, 2016, 07:33:28 PM
That's a logical fallacy.
Argumentum ad populum– concluding an argument is true simply because lots of people think it’s true. We see this on commercials all the time: “9 out of 10 doctors recommend Acme Brand Toothpaste,” or “3 million Brand X Customers Can’t be Wrong! Buy Brand X Today.”

Other's people's/critic's ratings doesn't actually prove it's quality but I respect that you love SMiLE.

//rock onwards dunder

You do realise that Metacritic took an aggregate review score of Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE and The SMiLE Sessions, 7 years later. They scored 97 and 96 out of 100 respectively.
I share this view. Well said.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: ash on May 19, 2016, 12:29:17 AM
I for one think Smile is the greatest collection of music ever put together in pop music! And no one is paying me to say that! I'm not even Brian's friend! But it is my real opinion on the matter!

Hey, I was gonna say that. Been listening to Smile since about 1987. It still completely blows my mind and one of the many things I like about it are how it's led to reading about American history, novels, books, films, getting into Charles Ives, Orson Welles, other great artists unfinished projects.....it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Fishmonk's entitled to his opinion but what we really need right now is the Great Shape/My Children acetate and someone (Al/Darian ?)  to bug Brian about that Do You Like Worms melody line heard on the Smile box.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Cool Cool Water on May 19, 2016, 04:29:22 AM
I wonder what AGD would of had to say about this thread if he was still around.  :lol


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Bicyclerider on May 19, 2016, 08:28:17 AM
I wonder what AGD would of had to say about this thread if he was still around.  :lol

Our punctuation and grammar would be mocked and the bad logic of the OP's argument would be laid out in excruciating detail.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Smilin Ed H on May 19, 2016, 10:38:58 AM
Looking back over this, I'd have to say that the best songs on Smile are as good as any of their other stuff (and better in the case of one or two), but I find it hard to see this as a unified whole.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: KDS on May 19, 2016, 10:52:29 AM
Looking back over this, I'd have to say that the best songs on Smile are as good as any of their other stuff (and better in the case of one or two), but I find it hard to see this as a unified whole.

That's pretty much how I feel about Smile. 

The great parts are amazing (Our Prayer, Heroes & Villains, Cabinesscence, Wonderful, A Song For Children, Child is the Father of the Man, Surf's Up, Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Good Vibrations).   But as a whole piece of work, there are some weak spots IMO (Barnyard, You Are My Sunshine, Workshop, Vega-Tables).   


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 19, 2016, 11:09:34 AM
Looking back over this, I'd have to say that the best songs on Smile are as good as any of their other stuff (and better in the case of one or two), but I find it hard to see this as a unified whole.

That's pretty much how I feel about Smile. 

The great parts are amazing (Our Prayer, Heroes & Villains, Cabinesscence, Wonderful, A Song For Children, Child is the Father of the Man, Surf's Up, Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Good Vibrations).   But as a whole piece of work, there are some weak spots IMO (Barnyard, You Are My Sunshine, Workshop, Vega-Tables).   

If these parts would have been masterfully edited in as brief snippets within a single song, part of a more cohesive whole, the way Brian most likely would have in 1966/67, they probably wouldn't seem weak. If one takes a brief session snippet of, say, Good Vibrations, I'm sure someone could qualify some short incomplete snippet as weak, but in reality when assembled in the whole totality of the song, it's a different story. IMHO.

Just listening to some of krabklaw's mixes, it's been a revelation to think of how the interchangeable parts could have fit together, and previously inessential snippets and parts have (and have always had, since their creation at the time of recording) potential to be rad components. But I'll concede that listening to some parts by themselves - without context - can make them seem a bit weak.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: KDS on May 19, 2016, 11:13:37 AM
Looking back over this, I'd have to say that the best songs on Smile are as good as any of their other stuff (and better in the case of one or two), but I find it hard to see this as a unified whole.

That's pretty much how I feel about Smile. 

The great parts are amazing (Our Prayer, Heroes & Villains, Cabinesscence, Wonderful, A Song For Children, Child is the Father of the Man, Surf's Up, Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Good Vibrations).   But as a whole piece of work, there are some weak spots IMO (Barnyard, You Are My Sunshine, Workshop, Vega-Tables).   

If these parts would have been masterfully edited in as brief snippets within a single song, part of a more cohesive whole, the way Brian most likely would have in 1966/67, they probably wouldn't seem weak. If one takes a brief session snippet of, say, Good Vibrations, I'm sure someone could qualify some short incomplete snippet as weak, but in reality when assembled in the whole totality of the song, it's a different story. IMHO.

Just listening to some of krabklaw's mixes, it's been a revelation to think of how the interchangeable parts could have fit together, and previously inessential snippets and parts have (and have always had, since their creation at the time of recording) potential to be rad components. But I'll concede that listening to some parts by themselves - without context - can make them seem a bit weak.

Perhaps if truly finished, it could've been a great album. 

I think the two versions we have (Brian Presents Smile and The Smile Sessions) are both very good.  When I mention weak parts though, I'm referring to listening from start to finish. 


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: CenturyDeprived on May 19, 2016, 11:22:56 AM
Looking back over this, I'd have to say that the best songs on Smile are as good as any of their other stuff (and better in the case of one or two), but I find it hard to see this as a unified whole.

That's pretty much how I feel about Smile.  

The great parts are amazing (Our Prayer, Heroes & Villains, Cabinesscence, Wonderful, A Song For Children, Child is the Father of the Man, Surf's Up, Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Good Vibrations).   But as a whole piece of work, there are some weak spots IMO (Barnyard, You Are My Sunshine, Workshop, Vega-Tables).  

If these parts would have been masterfully edited in as brief snippets within a single song, part of a more cohesive whole, the way Brian most likely would have in 1966/67, they probably wouldn't seem weak. If one takes a brief session snippet of, say, Good Vibrations, I'm sure someone could qualify some short incomplete snippet as weak, but in reality when assembled in the whole totality of the song, it's a different story. IMHO.

Just listening to some of krabklaw's mixes, it's been a revelation to think of how the interchangeable parts could have fit together, and previously inessential snippets and parts have (and have always had, since their creation at the time of recording) potential to be rad components. But I'll concede that listening to some parts by themselves - without context - can make them seem a bit weak.

Perhaps if truly finished, it could've been a great album.  

I think the two versions we have (Brian Presents Smile and The Smile Sessions) are both very good.  When I mention weak parts though, I'm referring to listening from start to finish.  

I know what you mean. In the context of those two versions of the album, there are parts that seem weaker and less essential than others. But have you listened to the krabklaw mixes?

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23855.0.html

I just spent about an hour last night doing so, and it totally blew my mind. I'd gotten so used to listening to the reconstructed album version of SMiLE from TSS for the last several years, that I almost forget that it is, while an admirable and Herculean effort, not the final word on the album (despite modern-day Brian's stamp of approval), and that it isn't necessarily as good as it could have been. And I say that with all due respect to Boyd/Linnett.

All I know is, listening to some of the krabklaw mixes has made me rethink the album, and realize that the mindblowing level of awesome potential that I always thought SMiLE had going for it was not even as amazing as I had realized, and in all likelihood, most every piece of recording snippet parts could have been utilized in ways that could make us rethink both the project as a whole, as well as newfound appreciation for the (relatively speaking) lesser snippet parts. It's almost like a companion piece to The White Album, two years early. I guess even a project like The White Album certainly had stronger songs than others. And that would have been the case for SMiLE too. Still, some top tier fan mixes give much better hypothetical ideas of context for the lesser parts, that make things gel much better than TSS or BWPS.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: buddhahat on May 22, 2016, 12:20:05 AM
I thought David Anderle was spot on when he described Smile as Brian's cubist period. Imo he is really exploding song form during this time and these beautiful fragments all sound endlessly fascinating to my ears. I think problems arise when they're sequenced into a conventional album structure and we start applying album critiques such as 'weak tracks' and 'filler'.

I like to view the disc one sequence from TSS as a sort of extended sampler of the best bits of Smile (a bit like the vocal track). Within this context, fragments such as Barnyard and workshop still shine for me.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Rick5150 on May 22, 2016, 06:53:23 AM
SMiLE was meant make you smile, so it was goofy at times. I think it understandably just got too overwhelming. I look at the finished version as a complete journey rather than many smaller treks. Like an action film that has a few slow parts, SMiLE uses the 'weaker' tracks to improve the cohesiveness and continuity of the album.

Even in a perfect world with no mental health issues, completing SMiLE in the modular manner than Brian was using has to be nearly impossible for a perfectionist. There are so many snippets of so many takes. Nearly an infinite number of possibilities. This was not the computer age and everything had to be done with physically cutting and splicing tapes. I know nothing about this process, but I expect that alone would be tedious and would mean hundreds of pieces of tape that would have to be assembled to create a completed version of the album. It is not like today's computer age where you can categorize everything in folders and copy and paste. How could you not lose track of what goes where?

I love all of the music on SMiLE and the harmonies are quirky and untouchable by anyone other than the Beach Boys. Brian’s band did a terrific job, but there is something missing. I prefer the SMiLE box set Beach Boys version even if it is not as “complete”. The boys could capture so many moods with their voices that it is amazing. They make you laugh, cry and some of the Indian-style chanting gives me goosebumps. It sounds ominous and beautiful at the same time. (I had that same feeling while listening to Rio Grande. It made me feel like I was present at a ceremony that I should not have been witnessing.) Brian always creates interesting snippets that can be incomplete or very short, but incredibly catchy. Mt. Vernon and Fairway is another great example of this.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Cam Mott on May 22, 2016, 07:37:38 AM
Imo, Brian did not think up anything he couldn't execute. Everything was thought out before he went into the studio, and his identification of what each bit was for and its place in the overall song are still there today on every bit. Imo he did what he wanted to do in an organized yet spontaneous way.

The problem imo is we don't want to accept that when he got it, as he was getting it, it was not satisfying to him lyrically or artistically or commercially; as he explained several times then and for decades since.  We want to lay it on everything but Brian's Muse but imo it was down to Brian's Muse; the same genius Muse we all love.

I personally agree it probably happened because Brian stretched out to be competitive with some artists et al he wanted to "scare"/impress, which he was executing beautifully, but it just did not ring true to him in the way other albums before (and eventually since) did.  I agree that SMiLE is beautiful (I'm obsessed with it) but, imo for several reasons, it is not emotional in the way other recordings were/are and my guess is that is the problem Brian's Muse came to realize.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 22, 2016, 07:52:29 AM
Dunderhead takes the germ of a good idea - Brian was trying to impress his friends - and then goes over the top with it.  

Van Dyke considered himself the genius, not Brian?  Ridiculous,nothing to support this.  In fact Van Dyke has always credited Brian with 100 % of the music of Smile, and has always praised Brian as a composer and songwriter until perhaps the last few years - don't want to get into why that might be, probably more to do with Van Dyke's situation than anything to do with Brian.  At the time there was no evidence Van Dyke considered himself "above" Brian, quite the contrary.

The "industry people" Brian surrounded himself were not all "Wannabees" - for example David Anderle was an accomplished "industry" person who didn't need Brian to achieve success.

I see no evidence the Posse Vosse "labelled everything he did "uncool" - in fact the music Brian was making was blowing their minds, and was the new definition of cool.  Some in the Vosse Posse resented the way Brian treated them - basically as playtoys available at all times to indulge his every whim, musical or otherwise - and Van Dyke was subject to this as well.  But no one was holding a gun to their heads to make them stay - and Van Dyke left twice.  Brian actually didn't care about being "cool" when a new inspiration or idea came into his head - although ultimately Dunderhead is right that he wanted the "cool" people to dig his music - and that's not just the Vosse Posse, but the Beatles and the general public as well.  

Why is there an Elements suite?  Because Brian came up with the idea, NOT because one of his friends said so - don't understand where you get the concept someone else made Brian think of The Elements.  It wasn't Van Dyke who was never particularly supportive of the Elements suite idea and has said he had nothing to do with those sessions.

Brian's ideas were concocted out of discussions - yeah, sure, just as they were with Tony Asher for Pet Sounds.  Nothing sinister or strange about that.  Musically it seems almost everything came from Brian - but lyrics and lyrical themes no doubt came from Van Dyke and Van Dyke's discussions with his and Brian's hangers-on about American imperialism, revolutions and youth changing society, American history as a theme to counter the British-centric music scene, etc.  

Great post.

As I say repeatedly, anyone doubtful can look at that October '66 airport photo, and tally up how many millions in record sales the musicians in that photo have to their credit (well over 100 million (plus), combined) added to the various successes and accolades given to others pictured in their respective fields, and the "hanger on" label applied to those people as a whole starts to sound like the B.S. that it is.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Emily on May 22, 2016, 08:52:42 AM


The problem imo is we don't want to accept that when he got it, as he was getting it, it was not satisfying to him lyrically or artistically or commercially; as he explained several times then and for decades since. 

I don't argue that this was not an aspect.

Brian did not think up anything he couldn't execute. Everything was thought out before he went into the studio, and his identification of what each bit was for and its place in the overall song are still there today on every bit. Imo he did what he wanted to do in an organized yet spontaneous way.


But a lot of people who were there at the time were saying that he was moving pieces around from here to there, unsure of how to fit things together.

I think that, as with most human behaviors, there are many aspects, subtle and plain, that contributed to his decisions.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: JakeH on May 22, 2016, 09:31:41 AM

If these parts would have been masterfully edited in as brief snippets within a single song, part of a more cohesive whole, the way Brian most likely would have in 1966/67, they probably wouldn't seem weak.
Just listening to some of krabklaw's mixes, it's been a revelation to think of how the interchangeable parts could have fit together, and previously inessential snippets and parts have (and have always had, since their creation at the time of recording) potential to be rad components. But I'll concede that listening to some parts by themselves - without context - can make them seem a bit weak.

Smile is in its finished form, one single "song," so yes, certain things are going to stand out as weak single tracks if you listen to it as a conventional album of songs (which is a mistake)  As a whole piece, Barnyard and You are my Sunshine and Gee, etc are critical components. This is why in my opinion, after Smile was finished, it became clearer that "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence" and "Surf's Up" no longer make sense as stand-alone tracks on 20/20 and Surf's Up.  If it is true that Brian was not in favor of putting that stuff on those albums, one reason might be because he felt that that it didn't belong there.

I look at the finished version as a complete journey rather than many smaller treks. Like an action film that has a few slow parts, SMiLE uses the 'weaker' tracks to improve the cohesiveness and continuity of the album.

Agree. It's right to put "weaker" in quotes because in the intended context, that stuff isn't weaker. 

The Sessions, as good as they sound, are, and always will feel fragmented. For me, listening to them is like how it was listening to the tracks on the 1993 box set. Amazing, but they don't make sense.  Actually for me a frustrating listen overall because of that.  The finished Smile is not fragmented at all, everything makes sense, all the pieces (e.g., water chant) feel like they are in their intended places.

I too disagree with the notion that Brian did any of this to "impress" people. 


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: DonnyL on May 22, 2016, 09:49:57 AM
Hello there fellow travelers. I haven't posted here in a while, but some of you might remember me as "Fishmonk,"

Truth be told I haven't listened to The Beach Boys much in the last 2 or 3 years, been busy with other things. And with blogging on other, more interesting parts of the internet. But recently I was induced to once again take up the topic of band, their successes, their failures etc. Now that I have a little more perspective on the band, and am perhaps able to be objective about them, I feel as if I have reached my Ultimate Fan Theory regarding why Smile didn't work.

Smile sucks. When you get right down to it, it's just not that enjoyable to listen to. The material has never been presented in anything more than a barely adequate way. I have listened to every fragment a million times, and truth be told, most of them aren't really listenable in any meaningful sense. Many of the experiments are utter failures, despite their nigh mythical status.

I feel that Brian's primary aim in creating Smile was to impress some of his friends. The only problem with that: Brian's friends considered him to be a bit of a fool, and listening to many of them today, it's clear they never respected him very much. I've emailed with Loren Schwartz, he's an asshole. And given Van Dyke Parks' later-day ingratitude towards Brian Wilson, it's hard not to catch a whiff of some long-festering resentment about his person. He was always a bit of a mooch, creatively. He associated with many talented musicians and songwriters, but never amounted to particularly much. As bad as Smile is, Song Cycle is much worse, and Van Dyke has struggled to eek out a legacy using it.

Van Dyke is an old Southern aristocrat at heart. One gets the impression that much of his artistic and public persona is stolen from Truman Capote. One often hears that he was a musical prodigy, and that he played violin for Einstein as a child. In his mind, he is the true creative, not Brian. He was the genius, not Brian. Brian wasn't smart enough to be a genius. And I think that's a sentiment that some of Brian's Smile-era friends shared, that Brian was a bit of dunce. It is almost embarrassing how hard Brian tried to impress these people.

Brian's friends during the Smile Sessions were some pretty insufferable people. Brian wasn't hanging out on the Strip, with Buffalo Springfield and Love. He surrounded himself with industry people and wannabes. They were pretentious. I mean, can you imagine wanting to be friends that badly with Curt Boettcher or somebody like that? If you ever listen to the discography of someone like Gary Usher, there's a really weird vibe of sanitized mysticism. It's incredibly lame stuff. There's a novelty factor that makes it enjoyable, sure. But is it 'cool'? No way.

Here's what I really think happened during the Smile era. Brian became enamored of a bunch of hipster-losers, and then he paid them all to be his friends. They all thought he wasn't truly capable of 'getting it,' in the way that they were, and came to deeply resent his influence upon their lives. Brian, with all his might, tried to tune in, or whatever. He tried to 'get it,' he wanted to be hip. But he's just too naive a person, and the whole scene that he wanted to be a part of so badly was simply too cynical in its constitution for him to ever enter very naturally into it.

Really what I'm saying is: these people Brian courted possessed no substantive beliefs other than an affected contempt for everything 'uncool'. Brian wanted to be cool, and they probably thought it was fun to perpetually label everything that he did 'uncool' in order to torment him. With Smile he wanted to make something that appealed to these people, this was his true and core audience. Smile was never made for the world at large, it was made for his immediate circle of dependents. Commercial success was only once factor that Brian thought might impress these people, because they leaned towards being industry types.

The problem came about because Brian really looked to them for help work shopping ideas, and they frankly weren't good at that, despite all being promoters and producers and wannabes.

Consider this: We take other people's words over Brian's. Why is there an Element Suite? I ask you. Because one of Brian's friends intimated that there was. These aren't Brian's ideas, they were often concocted out of discussions. Brian asked them "is this cool? what should I do? what's cool?" and they fed him a constant stream of lame brained ideas. At the end of the day, you can construct anything out of that. It's a fool's errand.

While I think your viewpoint has merit in terms of the overall presentation of Smile as an album, I disagree that the music is bad. The Smile recordings have persevered through time not only due to the mythical nature of the project, but also because the music has a certain magic in it.

If Brian was truly trying to impress his hip friends … it wouldn’t really matter if he were able to complete the album back in 1967. I think the results of a work should be judged independently of of the pretenses involved in how it came about. For instance, in 1967-68 everyone was releasing their own take on Sgt Pepper … many of those records are junk, but then you have something like Del Shannon’s Further Adventures of Charles Westover. And that’s his best record, hands down in my opinion. The freaky nature of the Sgt Pepper idiom seemed to permit him to write and record an “artistic” album for the first (and only) time. And he revealed himself to be one of the most gifted singer-songwriters of all time.

I personally don’t really consider Smile to be an “album”, and I’ve always been more satisfied with Smiley Smile. I don’t think Smile could have been assembled into a complete work that makes sense. None of the “final” versions have the sort of continuity and vision that would do justice to the individual greatness of some of the songs. Consequently, I think the way the group decided to release the songs originally (spread out across subsequent albums) was a fine choice … which worked not only to strengthen those releases, but also to contribute to the myth-making that was vital to the Smile story.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: JK on May 22, 2016, 12:48:24 PM
I personally don’t really consider Smile to be an “album”, and I’ve always been more satisfied with Smiley Smile. I don’t think Smile could have been assembled into a complete work that makes sense. None of the “final” versions have the sort of continuity and vision that would do justice to the individual greatness of some of the songs. Consequently, I think the way the group decided to release the songs originally (spread out across subsequent albums) was a fine choice … which worked not only to strengthen those releases, but also to contribute to the myth-making that was vital to the Smile story.

Agreed, on all points. That choice of theirs would inform any Beach Boys ten-for-the-moon list I'd draw up today. All official albums including a "Smile track" would be on it but not Smile itself.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: mabewa on May 22, 2016, 10:22:38 PM
I think the version of Smile compiled in the 'Smile Sessions' is up there with Pet Sounds, and it puts Sgt. Pepper's to shame. 


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Cam Mott on May 23, 2016, 06:30:43 PM


But a lot of people who were there at the time were saying that he was moving pieces around from here to there, unsure of how to fit things together.

 

Did witnesses say that? I don't remember, but if they did it isn't supported by the primary sources: Brian calling out on the recordings, in tapebox notes, and on session sheets what song each of the recordings were for and their place in the composition on the master.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: John Stivaktas on May 19, 2018, 07:18:37 PM
That's a logical fallacy.
Argumentum ad populum– concluding an argument is true simply because lots of people think it’s true. We see this on commercials all the time: “9 out of 10 doctors recommend Acme Brand Toothpaste,” or “3 million Brand X Customers Can’t be Wrong! Buy Brand X Today.”

Other's people's/critic's ratings doesn't actually prove it's quality but I respect that you love SMiLE.

//rock onwards dunder

You do realise that Metacritic took an aggregate review score of Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE and The SMiLE Sessions, 7 years later. They scored 97 and 96 out of 100 respectively.

We're not arguing about objective and absolute facts here. You could use that argument against anything that is subjective. The fact remains, that even now, years after, SMiLE, in all its variations, is widely viewed by fans, critics and the public, more positively then it is negatively.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Rick5150 on May 20, 2018, 05:32:09 AM
I think there may be some bias there.  Fans will more than likely find something to like because, well, because they are fans. We are fanatics about the music of the Beach Boys. Fans probably have more of an understanding of the mystery of the SMiLE stuff and Brian's condition throughout the years. That is a powerful story in itself. The troubled genius who makes such amazing music.

Fans look for new Beach Boys stuff. We post about it here before it comes out and anxiously anticipate every song. Then we dissect it and make alternate mixes and share it with the world. There is a lot to like about SMiLE.

Critics should be well-versed in the subject matter they are writing about so they probably understand more about the Beach Boys than the average listener.

Consider that back in the day with just radio, you listened to whatever came on. You could not really cherry-pick your music like nowadays. You could change a station, but that is about it until the cassette tape came along. Even then, you had to record from the radio (often getting DJ chatter and ambient room noise like telephone ringing) or you had to have a friend who had the album and you could record from that.

If SMiLE was played on the radio today like back in the day, I think a lot of people would be scratching their heads and the positive reviews would be fewer. It can be odd, but we fans find it endearing and quite powerful, and as such embrace it.


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: JK on May 21, 2018, 01:27:36 AM
SMiLE theories are like a**holes, we are all one.   ;)

Umm, shouldn't that be we all HAVE one?  :)

No.  ;D

:lol :lol :lol


Title: Re: My Ultimate Theory about Smile and the Beach Boys
Post by: Jukka on May 21, 2018, 06:08:01 AM
Haven't read the discussion yet but the opening post is something I've sometimes tought about. Hmm. Interesting points, though I'm not sure I agree with everything.