The Smiley Smile Message Board

After listening to Love You boots, I pondered this question out loud.  What if the only source of this project was from bootlegs?  What if the record company rejected it?  What would happen to the Beach Boy dynamic, and so on.  What do you guys think?

I don't think it would have mattered much, with the exception of removing a cult favorite of hardcore fans. The band went on to dramatically change course with MIU as it was, so to have not had that one real outlier? Well, I don't see much of a difference. Either way, they go pretty hard on the nostalgia trip.

As for the band's own dynamics in such a circumstance, I can't say.

I think Love You was a spike in the group's coffin.  WAIT!!!  How many songs were there?  Make it THAT many spikes in the group's coffin.  Gawd!!!  Even 15 itsy bitsy/tennie weenie little-uns gave us 2 hits.

Love You?  Not with that crap.

To the mainstream media and public, The Beach Boys newest studio album releases were pretty irrelevant from the mid-70s onwards. Well, up until their 2012 album. I personally love the album although I can see why it comes off as quite strange to certain parts of the fanbase. I'm a huge fan of the quirky stuff. Same goes for Adult/Child, although THAT would have been a weird album to release as a Beach Boys record!

Agreed.

The difference being, Love You followed up a top 10, gold album - which sold primarily on the premise 'Brian's Back" and the momentum built up by Endless Summer and Spirit of America. If they had come out with really strong, contemporary albums in 76/77, their commercial success could have continued for years. Instead, the public got damaged goods from a not-back-yet-Brian and co.

The Beach Boys Love You is a masterpiece. An open-hearted, synthesized, psychedelic, test-of-time-standing, schizoaffective-punk  masterpiece.

 :thumbsup :thumbsup The first spike was Smiley Smile. They certainly did not need another one but LY did the job so well.

Couldn't agree more. The album's even more refreshing in light of them spending the next couple of decades trying to rehash their early surf records to mostly diminishing results.

Webster's Dictionary has that exact same definition for  the word turd....a masterpiece...etc...open hearted...etc...schizoaffective...etc...piece of crap...I think is how it really ends.

Ever wonder why the Beach Boys...and when I say the Beach Boys I mean...Brian Wilson...Mike and Bruce as currently licensed...and the group way back in the day...so seldom performed any of Love You live...in concert?

'Cause it just plain sucked and nobody wanted to hear it.

So to retroactively come at it from a different time and place and then subsequently try to elevate Love You above the afore mentioned turd is a re-write of reality.  You like it?  Groovy.  Use it to help your garden grow this spring. ;)

It would have set back the 70s farty synth sound

I think you'll find a lot of fans who disagree with that, Add Some. In fact i'd say the proto synth-pop of the album was much more in tune with the zeitgeist of the time than many of their contemporaries. It's true, in a way Brian's new cocaine fueled voice would have been viewed as awful back then. But I couldn't not have this record in their discography. It's far too unique. It has honesty and simplicity in it. It's got more heart than most albums. Certainly more than anything the Beach Boys recorded after 1978 up until 2012.

Even Peter Buck has said it's his favourite BB's album, and he's certainly got an ear for melody!

Sounds to me like you're an MIU, LA Light, and KTSA fan.

What if the The Beach Boys Love You album was scrapped?
Beach Boys fans would have one less thing to fight about. That's about it.

It would become just another legendary unreleased album in the Beach Boys canon.  But given how ineffective it was on its release, I don't think it would have changed anything for the band.  Besides, look what came after it.  They were going downhill one way or another.

Hah - same goes for Smiley Smile. And if Smile weren't unreleased this board would've probably never taken off the ground. Good thing history happened the way that it did... we may have not even existed.

Ifs and buts, and candies and nuts, but I've always believed that if Brian's voice had not deteriorated to such a degree, Love You would have been more universally accepted. Some of the leads on side two really separate the casual fan from the hard cores.

Love You was a few years ahead of its time. I think it's an early new wave album in the vein of Safety Dance, Rock Lobster, Our House, Cars (Gary Numan), etc. Perhaps my favorite Beach Boys album right now!

I'm surprised the record company didn't reject it.

Naw... then the rows here over the 'demos that were never released' would be like "those terrible vocals... Brian would NEVER let tracks like that go out... he would have redone all of those with super-smooth banks of harmony like in 1965. Everyone knows that the vocals on 15 Big Ones is the aberration... and they only came out like that because Carl and Mike called time on the record and forced Brian to put it out. Just listen to the tag of the 'I'll Bet He's Nice' demo. That's how it *would* have been done throughout. And those awful farting synths? Ah, come ON!! That was just Brian getting songs down quickly in the home studio with whatever was to hand. If the album had been PROPERLY finished, he'd have got the Wrecking Crew into Gold Star to really do the songs the justice they deserve... and he'd have rewritten those bloody awful demo lyrics for tracks like Solar System too, while he was at it. There's demo lyrics if EVER I heard them..."

We're Beach Boys fans. There is ALWAYS something to argue about.

Oh, and Solar System *rocks* as is. But that's just MY opinion...!

I think he was totally into that very synth sound. Listen to Funky Pretty, Child of Winter, the Spring album, much of 15 Big Ones. Love You was the next logical step. I'm glad it doesn't sound like Pet Sounds or Summer Days, although I do love those records as much as anyone. Love You is not perfect and I don't think it was ever meant to be perfect. It was meant, however, to be honest, raw, and thoroughly moving.

I pretty much agree with this! I grew up on 80s music and Germany had its own brand of new wave music (Neue Deutsch Welle) and often the lyrics of those songs wouldn't have been out of place on Love You in terms of both sentiment and execution. This stuff wasn't meant to be Blonde on Blonde, guys. The BB had their 'great lyrics' phase when they did Pet Sounds, Smile, and later on, maybe Holland.

I can't help but observe that anytime someone praises Love You, it's mostly because the albums before and after are so lousy.  I can even see that, reading this thread. 

What if Love You came out right after, say, Sunflower?  Would it still be the cat's whiskers?

In my case, I praise Love You because it's better than any other Beach Boys album except Smiley Smile. More inventive, more interesting, more honest, more *strange*. It's worth a thousand Sunflowers (an album I think is as overrated as Love You is underrated)

Ok, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then!  ;)

If The Beach Boys Love You was scrapped or rejected, I think Brian would've moved seamlessly into the Adult/Child project, which is almost like More 15 Big Ones anyway, so it wouldn't have been a drastic follow-up album.

Brian recorded some decent NEW songs for Adult/Child, but one or two leftovers from the Love You sessions probably would've made its way onto the new project, maybe "Roller Skating Child", "Honkin' Down The Highway", or "Airplane". There were more oldies raring to go including "Deep Purple", "On Broadway", "Shortenin' Bread", and possibly "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'". And, of course, you had your vintage 1969-70 era tracks a la "Susie Cincinnati" and "Good Time" with "Games Two Can Play" and "H.E.L.P. Is On The Way".

So what you basically have is 15 Big Ones - Volume 2  :o

:) Emily likes this post.

Well, I have a different opinion *again*... I love 'em both. Very different animals, but both great. I agree that Sunflower is often praised a little *too* much for my liking, but I do think it's very good. And although Love You is indeed wonky and strange, I think it's very good too — in a totally different way.

Surf's Up is the album that just... doesn't work for me at all (some great tracks... but they thought THAT was a coherent album??). I prefer Carl and the Passions to that. No, really!

No accounting for taste... there are a lot of people here who will never be reconciled to Smiley Smile or Love You, but I'll take 'em over the 'Yacht Rock' of LA and MIU any day.

Seems that most of the posts are going into personal opinions on the relative merits of Love You, as opposed to the question of whether and how history might have changed had it never been released.

Seriously, does anyone think things would have been dramatically different than they were in the case of such a non-event?

No. But I think if it were still unreleased in 2016, there'd be some clamor.

I think Sunflower's a coherent-sounding record with about half a good album on it. I think Surf's Up is an incoherent-sounding record with about half a good album on it -- its highs are higher than anything on Sunflower, but it manages to have all the negative aspects of eclecticism without the positive aspects. I think Carl & The Passions is a genuinely good album which would be in my top five Beach Boys albums.
LA I think is actually about the same level as Sunflower, somewhere in the middle of the pack. Neither are albums I play very often, but both when I do play them have a few songs where I think "I'd forgotten how good this is" and a few where I think "I'd forgotten how bad this is", and both have a very coherent sound. They're both very Bruce-sounding albums, to me.
MIU has basically nothing to recommend it as far as I'm concerned. The backing is competent without being interesting, the vocals are often incompetent without having character.

Let's see, Surf's Up has:

Long Promised Road
Feel Flows
DITLOAT
'Til I Die
Surf's Up

There's five good reasons (on one album) for it to be considered "Gold Standard" fare. The only other one that would qualify after Pet Sounds, would be Holland with:

Sail On Sailor
Funky Pretty
California
Steamboat
The Trader

Can you imagine an album with these 10 songs?  ???

here's what would have happened if it was scrapped.I know because I went into an alternate reality and saw what would have happened.. Brian would have said "Screw it I'm finishing Smile!" he would have released it and it would have been the biggest selling album of all times going number 1 in the charts for 3 years, he would have became so happy to go off of the drugs, lost alot of weight and would have dumped Landy, then he would take complete control of the Beach Boys going back to the original wall of sound and telling the other member "This is how it's going to be,if you don't like it you can leave!" Carl and Dennis would give each other a high five in excitement and being influenced by Brian both Carl and Dennis would have gotten them selves clean never to drink, smoke or do drug EVER again, Dennis would have lived and Carl would have at least lived longer if not still be alive following Brian's Health Symposium called "HELP is on it's way" Mike and Al would have just quietly and humbly went along with him, Then he would do  an album that would have surpassed "Smile" as the next album, winning Grammy after Grammy, 10 to be exact, for his next 10 albums that would have gotten better and better with each one! He would have started the "Brian Wilson symphony Orchestra" and have his own wing at Harvard and would have ran for president of the united states in 2000 and would have won bringing world peace to the whole world!! DARN THAT "LOVE YOU" ALBUM!!!!  :lol

That might be my favorite BB album right there.

Holland is a brilliant album the way it is. I agree that Sunflower is a very "Bruce-sounding" album but there's certainly enough Brian on it for me to count it among my faves. Desper's sound work on that record is absolutely incredible too.

If they had come out with LA (Light Album) in the wake of Endless Summer and Spirit of America, I believe it would have done much better than it did. It had the kind of polish to it necessary to get on mainstream radio, and at least a couple songs that could have been major hits - Good Timin' and Lady Lynda. Both tracks were recognizably Beach Boys without being too retroish.

 Yes, Yes and thrice Yes.

 Firstly, excellent thread. I could bang on and on about the album itself, my love for it knows no bounds. However, as The Captain pointed out, the question asked is what should be answered, but I fear it's an anti-climactic answer;

 Nothing, diddly squat, zip, nada would have changed if this album hadn't been released. It seems clear that Brian was given free reign with the album (hence why its wonderful IMHO) and it flopped so he wasn't trusted again. If this and then A/C had been rejected outright then he just wouldn't have been trusted to get an album of his own original material to release. I think the order and content of albums would have carried on exactly as it had. Brian would've been deflated (as he was) and order would've been resumed.

 The only difference I can think of is from the fans. If many of us had heard the demos and never had it released then many of us would be bemoaning how the record company just didn't 'get' Brian and how it should've been given a chance and it could've been a new Pet Sounds (it would be nice to think that rather than the reality that many people just plain didn't like it)

No...I'm not.  There are 1 or 2 kind of OK songs on those LPs.  But really?  Not enough to justify their being released.  After Holland...it wasn't 'til TWGMTR that we got a handful of decent tunes all on one studio release.  I get that there are those who like/love Smiley Smile and Love You.  It is not for me to even begin to change your mind.  Why should I?  How could I?  If you 'hear' it...then good for you.  It makes you unique.  The rest of the world missed it.  [Fools that we are. :lol]

As I said...the Beach Biys did NOT make another great record after Holland...except for the double LIVE album...as far as I'm concerned 'til 2012.  They recorded some good individual songs but 45s are but 7 inches...not 12...and all of that happened in a 12 inch/FM not AM radio era.

Love You...which I maintain Brian recorded, at the very least, with tongue in cheek and also somewhat under protest ... was primarily done just to get the rest of the guys off his ass. [Brian's back indeed!!!]  There was a bubble of a buzz which accompanied 15 insignificant ones.  Attendance at concerts was good and performances were to be recommended.  After Love You?

"T I M B E R !!!!"  It all came tumblimg down.

So go ahead and love Love You.  I don't.  And if and when your copy wears out...because I didn't go and buy it again... [and yes I do have it both on vinyl from the get-go and on the 2-fer cd with 15 whatever those ones were] ...there'll still be a copy left in the discount bin for you.

Wanna bet Brian tours it in 2020-2027?  One of the reasons why it's all over the freaking place and why I suggest that Brian did it under protest...It took them 7 years to record it all.  7 years...and THAT'S all they could come up with?  Kind of like a "do we have to?" weekend hobby as opposed to it being a real Beach Boys album.

for me "Love You" is like Bach's Organ Works,,very complex but at the same time they are JUST organ and the string and wind instruments are missing so people may not like it as much as his other works..I Love "Love You" but also I heard bach's organ work and I can hear he similarities....I suggest picking up some of Bach's organ works and then relisten to "Love You" and you may get a new appreciation for it,,,

If Love You were scrapped, Warners may well have said,"It's over" and sued the sh*t out of the band for non-delivery.

This may have allowed early exit to CBS and would have thankfully prevented the existence of M.I.U.

The financial hit would have driven the band into full nostalgia set list gigs in Las Vegas & international stadium spectaculars featuring the Harlem Globe Trotters & Evil Kenivel.

A sole & final CBS album would have been named after it's one original song "Goin' South",
the rest of the tracks reworkings of past hits, including Surfin', Hawaii & Kiss Me Baby.

Brian would not have recovered from the blow and remained in his child/man state.

Love it!

My take on the Sunflower vs Love You thang:

Sunflower = fine songs beautifully recorded (+ Dreary and Tears in the Mourning)
Love You = quirky enjoyable tunes, with some humorous lyrics, instinctively recorded with a generous dash of genius (+ Love Is a Woman).

I generalise, of course…

 :lol

I agree with the thought that a non release of Love You wouldn't have altered much. 

While loved by many Brian fans, the album is pretty much ignored by both Brian and his band and the touring Beach Boys. 

Had the album not been released, it would probably be held in high regard, achieving a mythical status with some of Brian's fans. 

So much animosity. I love Love You.

I truly can't understand the mindset of how joyless one would have to be to not love the beauty and wonder of Love You. Ok sure it gets a little creepy here and there.

 I know it's a comparison that's been made before but I think that those who don't like Love You probably don't think that Daniel Johnston writes good songs. The two are very comparible in my eyes. By the glossy standards of the Top 40 or Billboard it can been seen as trash. By the standards of what, in my eyes, music should be about there is nothing better.

Well,yes, I am, all three. Love You is well down the list, not as far as So Tough, and Smiley Smile resides at the bottom as an album. Love You isn't a bad album for what it is, but it's a bit too quirky for my overall tastes, so doesn't get a lot of play when I'm thinking "hmmm, wonder which Beach Boys album to listen to today?". It's got to be the right mood. Every now and again . . . . . .

As far as I know, the only Love You tunes to be played by Brian / Brian's Band is Ding Dang on a QVC appearance, and The Night Was So Young.

When I said I love Love You, it needs to be put in context. I don't love it as much as Today or anything from (and including) Pet Sounds to Holland.

Don't beat yourself up over it.  Some people like it, some don't.  I don't see anyone who doesn't care for it saying things like, "I don't get how anyone can stand that...."  Oops, I'm doing it now!  ::)

I'm somewhere in the middle when it comes to the Love You album. 

I think there's some really good stuff on there, most notably The Night Was So Young and Mona. 

I also think it's miles better than the 15 Big Ones album. 

But, I'm not as into quirky Brian as many here.  So, while I don't hate the album, I still rate it pretty low in their overall catalog. 

If Love You had never been released, there would be less happiness in my life than could have been. There is so much to love on that album! The only song that I don't really like is "Love is a Woman".

Love You had some great tunes and could have been a classic with better production and vocals -- even if the lyrics were weak in a lot of spots.

The Night Was So Young is an amazing song as is, and could have been among the group's best if Carl's vocal had been up to his normal standards.

Assuming I wouldn't know what the finished result would be, I'd be fine with it being scrapped. Of course demos are inferior, I'm sure every fan will agree, but if they sit in the archives & get featured in boots - well, not bad.

I've not read anyone say they like LOVE YOU because of the albums surrounding it.  Yes, I would still love it if it came after "Sunflower."  I know this because I like it more than "Surf's Up."  I enjoy the heck out of the album--those who don't like it are just a bunch of Mike Love's who can't handle not hearing a publicly-approved hit every few songs.

I've noticed this perception on both this board and the BW Forum from other posters. 

The attitude is: "Love You" is a great album, and if you don't like it, you're either "not a real Brian Wilson fan," "aren't smart enough to understand," or "buy into the Mike Love agenda."

Well, I consider myself a pretty big Beach Boys / Brian Wilson fan.  And, I'm sorry, but the Love You album is near the bottom of the list for me.  Granted, there's a few nice moments on there, but as an album, I'll take pretty much anything between 1962-1973 over it.  As well just about anything Brian Wilson had put together since BWPS (including the BB reunion album). 

Does that make me less a fan? 

The way I see it, it's just that many people who really love Love You (like me) just can't understand why another fan doesn't. Just like some of us can't understand people who don't appreciate the Beach Boys. Lack of understanding makes one look for reasons why and come up with explanations for the sole purpose of "making sense".

Catlag,

I'm not citing you, and any other poster specifically, but I also think it's the "hip" choice, sometimes preferred by contrarians or hipsters.   The types who go to a bar and play the most far out music on the jukebox, and go around bragging about how "different" or "edgy" or "non mainstream" it is.

Having said that, I think this only makes up a small percentage of the Love You fans. 

Here is another possibility. If the Beach Boys scrapped Love You, Brian would have asked Alice Cooper, Iggy Pop, David Bowie and Ozzy Osbourne to add vocals and released it as an all star record.

But then again... Making that argument is the same as the one you previously criticized that "if you don't like it, you're either "not a real Brian Wilson fan," "aren't smart enough to understand," or "buy into the Mike Love agenda."

You make sense of people liking it (from your perspective of NOT liking it) by attributing it to a "hip" choice.

I suppose that's OK. We all do that.

And I'll end on this note: I love Love You from the absolute bottom of my heart and in the uttermost depth of my fandom. Not because it may or may not be "hip", "different" or "edgy". I just love it. There's no real way of explaining it. For me, it absolutely grooves and it remains a gem of the BB discography.

Catlag,

I never said that's the main reason why Love You gets the love it gets. 

I wish you'd have copied my full quote to include my last point.

Having said that, I think this only makes up a small percentage of the Love You fans. 

If you legitimate love the Love You record, I'm OK with that.  But, I truly believe that there's a small percentage of fans who'll cite this at a favorite for the sole purpose of going against the grain. 

The only reason I quoted only a portion is because I commented only on the first part and figured visitors of this thread would have read your whole comment already. I know you did not mean to be diminutive to begin with. I was just emphasizing that misjudgments can be made from both sides of the fence when it comes to what we love and what we don't love from our Beach Boys.

... I know this is a little bit off topic, but since I'm one of those who needs to make sense of fans not liking LY, is there no way to turn your opinion of this record around?  :) What's so wrong with it? haha! I'll just go to the proper Albums discussion for that.

I've listened to the album several times, thinking that I'm missing out on something.  There's a few tracks on there that I like, most notably Mona, Johnny Carson, and The Night Was So Young. 

But, to me, most of the material just doesn't live up to the high standards of a Brian Wilson production. 

I should also specify that I'm not a big fan of Brian's more quirky material.  For example, Vegatables is one of my least favorite BB songs from the 1960s. 

I have similar feelings about LY. Roller Skating Child, Honkin' Down the Highway, Johnny Carson are the ones I go to most often. I get that some people feel "the quirkier, the more pure Brian it is". Personally, I just don't enjoy hearing a bunch of musical sketches (that needed more work in the writing dept) on an album (that needed much better production) sung by off-key or loaded Beach Boys. The whole 15 BO/Love You things feels to me like a giant step, if not backwards, at least sideways, after the decade opening quadruple shot of Sunflower/Surf's Up/So Tough/Holland.

That's pretty much how I feel Lonely Summer. 

The deep in quality from the early 70s albums to 15BO/LY is very jarring. 

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I think MIU and LA were better albums once the other BB took the reins back from Brian, who IMO, wasn't ready to be in charge again.  To my ears, Brian wouldn't truly be back until he revived Smile in the early 2000s.  Since then, he's been at the helm of some very high quality albums (TLOS, Gerswhin, TWGMTR, NPP, and even the Xmas album). 

If Love You were scrapped, the band's descent would follow a smoother trajectory.

I don't. If nothing else, it's not "against the grain" to defend Love You -- it's one both Al and Brian have mentioned in interviews as a favourite, it's one that always gets brought up as a favourite in fan discussions, it has critical respect... why would a contrarian want to defend that? They'd be more likely to be arguing the merits of Stars & Stripes or Summer In Paradise or something.

For another, what you're doing here is dismissing a group while leaving a certain amount of deniability in place. "Oh, *YOU'RE* OK, it's those *OTHER* Xs that are the bad ones" -- but never saying exactly which Xs you mean. This is a very unpleasant tactic used by far too many people. If you think specific people are doing that, why not name those specific people?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this board ever lie about what Beach Boys music they enjoy. I *do* think, however, that accusations of bad faith like that go a long way toward causing the bad atmosphere we see on this board.

My three favourite Beach Boys albums are Smiley Smile, Love You, and Carl & The Passions. I don't know that Pet Sounds would be in my top ten, and Sunflower *certainly* wouldn't be in my top twenty. Am I one of your contrarians, lying about my taste? Or am I just someone who happens to have different tastes? I know what *I* think, but when you go around saying things like that, I can't assume that you'll presume good faith.

If this is a real thing, you should be able to name the people you think are doing it.

Andrew,

I'm sorry, but I don't log every post I read, so it would be impossible for me to call out people who I thought stated their love for a particular album to be hip. 

I'm not even necessarily referring to people on this board.

I've made the mistake of getting into music discussions with hipsters at a local watering hole I used to fequent, and whenever a legacy artist would come up, they would almost always cite the dark horse albums as their favorite because "they don't have the hits" or "its so not mainstream."  I kinda recall an exchange about Paul McCartney where the person mentioned he loved the McCartney II album because it was no New Wave and sounded nothing like The Beatles. 

I'm not sure why you'd read a general statement I've made and think its about you, unless I possibly touched a nerve. 

I'm also a huge fan of Carl and the Passions. And while I certainly enjoy nearly all of Love You more than 15 Big Ones (with the exception of "Just Once in My Life"), it isn't one of my favorite or go-to BB albums. I really, really, REALLY don't understand the love for "Solar System," in terms of vocals, lyrics, and the song itself. But "Johnny Carson"? Amazing. There's a lot of amazing on the album. Ok, never mind. It's probably one of my favorites.

If The Beach Boys Love You had gone unreleased, I think that the music cognoscenti would have written off Brian's continuing genius as "burnt out" by the early 70s, instead of continuing to the present day. The album did have-- and continues to have-- some critical acclaim, and I think that it helped prop up Brian's reputation in certain circles until he could really get his feet back underneath him with his solo career. There would have been a definite lack of quirky, idiosyncratic Brian songs extending from the end of the Riely era, and we would all be losers in that scenario.

EDIT: For all the talk about how the modern Beach Boys have exhibited little love for Love You, don't forget that Al put "Honkin'" on his solo album. Honk, honk, mofos

And? If you like things that sound new wave, and don't like things that sound like the Beatles, that's a perfectly reasonable reason to like that album. If someone said that to me, I'd accept that those were their reasons, rather than assuming they were lying.


The point is that you made a general statement about a group including me -- and including a lot of other people on this board -- and then used weasel words to get out of having to justify it in any particular instance. You're making unfalsifiable statements, because when asked about any particular person you can just say "oh I didn't mean *them*", while continuing to insist on it as a general pattern. Unless you actually point to specific people you're talking about, *anyone* who has expressed a love for the album is being pointed to as at least a potential liar.

I have only very rarely in my life come across anyone who pretended to like an album in order to impress someone -- and pretty much never with anyone over the age of about nineteen. I have *often*, however, come across people who claim that other people are doing that as a way to dismiss the opinions of anyone they disagree with, and I find the latter behaviour *far* more annoying.

And no, despite your insinuations, you didn't "touch a nerve". I just think it's very, very, rude to presume dishonesty when people say they like something you don't, and especially so to do so in a way that means you never have to defend that presumption.

Andrew,

You've obviously never dealt with modern hipsters.  For that, I envy you.  Some of these posers in my neighborhood are some of the most phony and pretentious people you'll ever meet.

To me when somebody says "I can't like that because it's too mainstream" or "If it's popular, it can't be that good" then I have a hard time believing most of what they say.  And, yes, I have actually heard people say these actual words in person. 

I even said in my post that I believe this only applies to a small amount of people to express their love to the Love You album. 

Wow, I had exactly the same reaction. It's the biggest pet peeve of mine when people throw this "you're a hipster" card. So, what if I like sth. unusual and pick up some unconventional choice? I hate to break it but if one says, f.ex., that French is one of the ugliest languages they ever heard, it does indeed mean that they despise it. Why would I think they lie? What for? Hilarious, ya know.
 I wholly agree with Mr. Hickey. Worded perfectly.

KDS, there's no need to backpedal and make more effort to reason your post. It is rude and it's a dumb theory. Just agree to disagree.

If I could explain the rationale of the modern day hipster, I would. 

See the edit.

But this is something altogether different. Isn't saying "if it's popular, it can't be good" along the same lines as saying, "If you say you like Love You, you may be lying"?

Yes, but that's not what I said.  I said there's a small amount of people who profess their love for albums like Love You just to be different. 

I happen to believe that to be true.  I stand by that.  And I don't feel any need to apologize for an opinion. 

When it comes to the late 70's LPs, Love You is the one for me that holds up.  A couple of the ballads aside, I don't think it's necessarily the songwriting that puts it over the top (I tend to think most Brian-penned tracks would sound good in the right context already).  I like the productions and vocals, at least two of which seem to be criticisms sometimes levied against this record.  If you put those same tracks with processed vocals and/or tacky/over-polished productions of virtually every group album thereafter, that appeal is largely dropped.

No, this is a lo-fi work that relishes in a blend of original instrumental choices and arrangements.  And as much as I love the pristine vocals of the 60's, the appeal of their singing was never for me only about how smooth their voices were.  I want a level of character and unpretentiousness, which I feel this record definitely still keeps intact.  And quite frankly, Brian's falsetto still leaves a lot to like here to these ears.

So, to the answer the thread's question, if Love You was scrapped it would be much easier to draw the line at 1973 for quality listening beyond select tracks thereafter, the latter part of the decade being far less enigmatic.  And there would be about a dozen less songs on my playlist.

I don't think I understand the difference. If they are professing their love for albums like Love You just to be different, aren't you implying that they don't actually love it as much as they say they do? If you are not implying that, what are you saying?


I don't think anyone has asked you to apologize.

Just agree to disagree. Nobody asked you to apologize.

I think KDS makes sense. Obviously no single explanation is going to describe every individual's taste, but most people certainly admit there is a subset of art fans--and we can call them hipsters or whatever else--who inevitably take a kind of contrarian position, picking obscure or early or late or otherwise unpopular items, seemingly based on some almost ideological position that rare taste is superior to common taste. And while that might be true--some early, or late, or unpopular item might truly be better than the most popular item--it's absurd to think that such a situation is always true. The odds of someone actually preferring only unpopular or obscure items are nil; the odds of them faking (or even lying to themselves and so somehow believing in) their taste to promote their own superiority are good.

And to the world at large, Love You would seem a perfect candidate for such an item: universally admired genius's almost wholly unknown (again, to the world at large, not to people here) work, which happens to be beautiful, creepy, weird, and sometimes poorly performed. (I love Love You and won't try to analyze my own reasons for it. Maybe I'm one of the aforementioned dipshits. That's fine.) To the bigger world, it is an irrelevant album; if it didn't exist, the world wouldn't have noticed.

Also, KDS: I demand an apology.  ;)

Well, Captain.  You've explained my point much much better than I did. 

And about your apology.........um...no.    :)

You know, I don't think you're wrong in thinking some might exclaim the merits of an LP like Love You ahead of other more well-known albums simply because it doesn't get the recognition, but I don't think people like it purely due to this reason either.  Love You is neither the most obscure nor the most maligned in their discography, so if someone really wanted to be different they could do better than Love You.  At the very least, there has to be a level of appeal to the listener for this one to emerge above other latter day works.

As far as the hipster argument, I think it's true that some people will for a time deliberately set their tastes to what isn't liked, but there's a rhyme and reason behind what they seek out that aligns with their tastes.  This goes especially for stuff that isn't contemporary.  Someone digging into 40 year old music obviously has an interest in this period even if they might seek out more esoteric stuff.

In the general public consciousness, I don't think The Beach Boys' music is known enough for people to know the difference between the LPs other than the big two, so I don't really see why Love You would be any different than, say, Carl and the Passions or Holland in this regard. In other words, if it's a case of simply going against the grain, I think you could apply that argument to pretty much any record The Beach Boys did other than (or, today, maybe even including) Pet Sounds and Smile.

I accept your apology.

I know I shouldn't respond to your posts but are you saying there are actually people who, based on just ideology that rare taste is superior, deliberately pick up the most unpopular choices even if they don't really like those choices? I don't see how it works.

I believe you.

Yes, that is 100% true.  There are such people.  Why?  Nobody really knows, but I think Captain provided a pretty good explanation. 

They don't really lie to you, they rather lie to themselves.

No, they're not. I know *many* people who prefer only unpopular and obscure music -- often far less popular and far more obscure than anything I'd listen to myself.
Popular music tends to share quite a lot of commonalities, in terms of song structure, arrangement, vocal styles, types of recording, and so forth. If, for example, someone disliked the sound of the electric guitar or the snare drum, then pretty much all music that was popular between, say, 1958 and 1980, would not be to their taste.
More generally, if someone has a genuine taste for the novel over the formulaic, for the dissonant over the consonant, for the abrasive over the comforting, that person will in general only like music that isn't popular.
Some people will only like the most popular music. The vast majority will like a range of music, some more popular than others. And some will only like the least popular music. That's exactly what one would expect if people's tastes ranged normally around a central mean.

They're really not, given that the near-universal reaction to anyone whose tastes are even slightly out of the mainstream is to dismiss them as a "hipster", claim that they're lying about their tastes to impress people, and then ridicule them.

Given the choice between "these people I know who are, in other respects, perfectly reasonable and intelligent people, but who discuss listening to old C90s of someone hitting a metal bucket and shouting, are doing so because they actually think it impresses people, even though nobody has ever been impressed by it and a lot of people mock them for it" and "these people are getting something different from the music they listen to than I get -- so different that they actually enjoy listening to an old C90 of someone hitting a metal bucket and shouting", the second is far more believable to me -- and also doesn't require assuming anyone is a liar.

I think you're arguing against a straw-man caricature about what I believe as opposed to my real point, but I also think you're incorrect anyway. Rather than further hijack--I know how horrible that practice is for some of our fellow Smiley Smilers--I'm pretty sure there's a hipsterism thread in the sandbox or general music forum. I'd be glad to continue it there, which actually makes sense since it goes well beyond just music.

Time to Get Alone,

I agree.  I've listened to Love You several times, and I can see why a lot of people on here like it even it its not my cup of tea.  As I said, I think the majority of Love You fans on here are on the level and are legit fans of the album.

And you're right, one could be a hipster and chose several different unpopular choices.  Summer in Paradise could even have that "it's so bad it's good" thing going for it.  

2Mr. Hickey: Yes, I don't think it's plausible to bring stats into this discussion, odds are nil etc. So again I agree with you.

I'm pretty sure that there are people in this thread making assumptions about other people's tastes and motives based on superficial familiarity with a few individuals of similar external appearance, which is pretty illogical (and has lead to historical horrors when taken to its extreme) but a common human failing.

You mean KDS?

Micha - one of my late brothers liked MIU, and Love You. (He was into TM so that explains MIU and better than Love You, I think.) I had all the albums and was surprised that he liked these ones as much as he said he did.  He was in college at the time which could explain the timeline.  

And, I think the best track (my favorite, anyway) that embodies their sound is on Love You is "I'll Bet He's Nice."  I still really like that Brian-Dennis-Carl track.  

After CATP and Holland, it seemed impossible that this followed. It sort of always felt rushed or unfinished to to me.  

But, I did love my bro, and let him have his space and taste, even if I would roll my eyes at him.  ::)  He deserved that, as I would drag him to BB concerts and he would never complain.  :lol

Among others. I think to assign a subculture to someone based on -what?- their clothes, their manner of speech, their facial hair, their neighborhood in Brooklyn- and to then assume a package of tastes and *motives for those tastes* is to follow the same part of human instinct that drives bigotry.

Yep, my comments could lead to historical horrors.  

Easy/ Tight psnts that don't reach their shoes and no socks. There are worse people out there. I wouldn't let it bother you.

Well, I would agree that MIU certainly sounds better on the surface than Love You, although the material is not very strong. LA is one of my favorites - it's almost like an early 70's BB's album with all those songs from Carl and Dennis.

Oh, the captain, you disappoint me.  From your moniker, I'm assuming that you share at least one other of my tastes in music, and I've frankly lost count of the number of times I've had to read articles / listen to blowhards insisting that nobody actually likes Trout Mask Replica or would ever dare listen to it for fun, or that to claim appreciation of it is to be contrarian for contrarianism's sake.  And that experience has given me very limited patience with this particular train of argument.  Gimme that old time religion, gimme that old time religion, don't gimme no affliction, that old time religion is good enough for me.

To quote Inigo Montoya, get used to disappointment.  ;D

I do indeed share at least one other of your tastes in music. But I also argue that many who share it with us probably share it for the aforementioned reason. That said, I argue often (as can be found in the general music forum) that the late, great captain's music is best appreciated without any of the trappings of critical acclaim (and incessant accompanying description that it's "difficult music"). Beefheart is easily enjoyed by throwing off both popular and critical context.

But this is just the same kind of thing you're *accusing* the other people who like Beefheart of. "Oh, *I* just happen to like Beefheart. It's those other people, they don't get him like I do. They're just *pretending* to like his music, so they can be cool like me. They probably really like Adele or something. Posers."

I agree with Theydon Bois on this one -- and in fact it was the experience of reading all those "everyone's just *pretending* to like Trout Mask Replica, no-one could really like it" articles that made me so annoyed by this argument as well. (And really? *Trout Mask Replica* is unlistenably strange and weird? It's just what you get when you're playing Chess-style blues but also listen to a few Ornette Coleman records... One interesting thing for me was when a friend, who's mostly into fairly soft pop music, listened to Safe As Milk for the first time -- his response was "It sounds like the Monkees". And he's right, it does...)

I keep seeing this claim, that people pretend to like music they don't really like, in order to impress other people. What I've never seen is an example of anyone who's actually impressed by that -- at least, anyone out of their teens. I've seen a hell of a lot of people who mock and scorn people they claim are doing that, though.

I've said, lots of times to lots of people "I like Trout Mask Replica" or "I like The Beach Boys Love You", and not once has anyone found it impressive. Why would someone keep doing something like that to impress people, if no-one's impressed by it? Occam's razor says they're not, and that even people you find annoying can be honest about their musical tastes.

We already established that you don't agree with me (though I still think all the arguments against seem to be straw men). It's really not such a big deal, and there is a thread to discuss it if you want.

Though actually, I do believe I owe the board an apology. I was wrong and I can admit it:

Upon further reflection, it wasn't Inigo Montoya who said "get used to disappointment," but Westley. I'm sorry for any harm my careless actions may have caused.