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Non Smiley Smile Stuff => The Sandbox => Topic started by: Rocky Raccoon on December 30, 2015, 08:20:40 PM



Title: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Rocky Raccoon on December 30, 2015, 08:20:40 PM
I've never been much of a Star Wars nerd but I was absolutely blown away by this film.  I couldn't take my eyes off the screen.  It really captures the magic that made the originals great.  The young actors, Daisy Ridley and John Boyega make a great impression and hold their own against Harrison Ford who hasn't missed a beat at all since he last played Han Solo.  The dialogue is sharp, the effects are great, it absolutely exceeded my expectations.  My only complaint is that it didn't look great in 3D.  I've seen 3D used effectively in films such as Martin Scorsese's Hugo but here it was just a distraction and didn't really add much.  I'd like to see it again without having to wear those pesky glasses.  :3d


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Alan Smith on December 30, 2015, 08:38:48 PM
Harrison Ford is outstanding, but Chewie was even better - he seemed pretty peeved for the entire film, getting a bit grumpy in his old (?) age.

Carrie Fisher delivered a dignified performance and how about that Rey! Ass kicker! and boy, does the Millennium Falcon move or what!

Other than that, a load of revisionist guff.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on December 31, 2015, 08:50:28 AM
I've never been much of a Star Wars nerd but I was absolutely blown away by this film.  I couldn't take my eyes off the screen.  It really captures the magic that made the originals great.  The young actors, Daisy Ridley and John Boyega make a great impression and hold their own against Harrison Ford who hasn't missed a beat at all since he last played Han Solo.  The dialogue is sharp, the effects are great, it absolutely exceeded my expectations.  My only complaint is that it didn't look great in 3D.  I've seen 3D used effectively in films such as Martin Scorsese's Hugo but here it was just a distraction and didn't really add much.  I'd like to see it again without having to wear those pesky glasses.  :3d

I personally thought it was a load of garbage that relied entirely on nostalgia pandering (look! Lukes lightsaber! Look! Vader's helmet! Look! Han Solo!) and had not a single original idea in the whole thing. Its basically a scene by scene remake of A New Hope but not nearly as good, it regressed the characters we all knew and loved (Luke's a failure who just gave up, Hans a smuggler again after being a war hero general, Leia does nothing the whole movie), introduced a lame janitor storm trooper whose motivations made no sense, a mary sue perfect girl-power protagonist and a whiny pretty boy loser antagonist. There were far too many retreads to the originals, unnecessary slaps in the face to Lucas ("this'll begin to make things right"/blowing Coruscant and Naboo up), and really heavy handed Nazi overtones to the bad guys which was so forced and lame.

Here was my in-depth review on my Facebook after returning from the theater. My intial thought seeing it was it was ok but just ok, but honestly the more I think about it the more i dislike it. I predict it will NOT stand the test of time and as the years go by and people rewatch and really analyze it, there will be significant backlash. Im aware its getting good reviews but I think thats a combination of the novelty of a new Star Wars, no one wanting to piss off Disney or go against the hype, and the power of the Star Wars brand making people go easy on it. But even the reviews if you actually read them have an air of disappointment and acknowledge its a total rehash of the original.

Anyway...

"Im gonna rub some people the wrong way here, but I gotta get this outta my system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSaaa_OBkzw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSaaa_OBkzw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6eqPEH_BvY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6eqPEH_BvY)
^History repeats itself? These are fans coming out of Phantom Menace for the first time calling it the best thing ever. You could argue this time's different and Im being a douche canoe for raining on everybody's parade...but after taking it all in...the reviews, the IMDb comments, my friends' opinions and seeing it myself...Im predicting in another 10 or I guess 16 years we'll be right back here at square one looking back and pretending we all instantly hated TFA and walked out when in reality we all bought into the hype and loved it...for awhile. One aspect of the prequel hate that gets brushed under the rug these days is that each one, people initially seemed to love, but by the time the next came out, people realized it wasnt good but seemed to say "but im sure this one will be a lot better" and coming out of the theater we seemed to think so. At least, that was my experience with my family/friends. It always took a year or two to "realize" or admit the last one sucked, and it still didnt stop us from hyping up the next one anyway. So powerful is the Star Wars brand, it literally prints money and manufactures consent.

I realize Im being kind of a smug asshole for trying to act like Im above the curve and posting something like this...but I find the whole phenomenon here really interesting--more so than any of the actual SW movies sans Empire. Like I said in my profile pic about Lucas as a man, there will be an amazing documentary or fictionalized account of this series and his life someday. There's just so much there to build upon--the maniac in the desert filming a stupid space story everyone said would fail, the runaway success, and the unsung heroes like Gary Kurtz, Irvin Kershner and Marcia Lucas working behind the scenes to fine tune his ideas into gold. Then there's the divorce, the egomania taking over, the loathsome special editions, the mass delusion of initial prequel acceptance followed by the great backlash, the surprise sell to Disney, them using the Creator as a fall guy to blame all problems on, and (if Im right) the repeating of history with what seems to be a pretty unimaginative new set of films. And thru it all, we've seen the pendulum of public opinion regarding Lucas swing back and forth from genius, to hypocritical hack, to sympathetic storyteller. Im already seeing some reappraisals of the prequels online since TFA came out, that at least theyre new and imaginative if badly directed/acted, where TFA is polished and competent but also a complete rehash of the original.

The phenomena of undying love for a brand is really interesting to witness too, from someone on the semi-outside of it (loved em all as a kid, not so much now). I really think in this case, people WANTED to like each of the post-ROTJ movies so much they allow themselves to believe theyre better than they really are. And even with 3--possibly soon to be 4--disappointments, we still keep coming back for more...because hey, its Star Wars. Cant be that bad right...except the prequels (and possibly soon TFA) but still! It just begs the question...with so much disappointment and unfulfilled potential in the series' history, what exactly is the appeal? Why do we keep paying for it? Was the original that good that it warrants so much unyielding loyalty in spite of all the let down since? Or is it the impossible childhood nostalgia we're paying for? Im not sure which but one thing I know for certain is TFA didnt deliver for me. I bought into the hype and the herd mentality with the prequels because I was so young and easily impressed...but as a 23 year old, a pointless scene by scene rehash of the original with less interesting characters and forced nostalgia pandering just doesnt cut it...and its actually kinda disheartening to see so many apparently buy into it anyway.

I gotta say, as a film buff this movie makes me really sad. I respect the original Star Wars for its innovations and success, and its still a fun movie to watch today. But I loathe its impact on Film--the beginning of the blockbuster era, and of mass merchandising of films into all-encompassing, forced cultural events with toys, marketing tie ins, and now even Star Wars brand makeup! And this film, as it shamelessly mirrors the original, represents all the corporatization it summoned coming home to roost. A studio paid 4 billion to gain the rights, another quarter billion to make a film, at least an eighth of a billion to market...all to make the same movie again, with new (lamer) characters and updated effects. And no one sees a problem with that, because...its a NEW STAR WARS DUDE! ITS AWESOME!! But is it really? Yeah, we got all the forced call-backs to Vader, Han, Leia, Chewie, Luke, the Droids, and the Falcon. But so what? What did any of it amount to? WOW I SAW VADERS SKULL FOR FIVE SECONDS, THAT REMINDS ME OF THE ORIGINALS!!! Han's back...and his character growth of the trilogy has been completely undone so he can be the same lovable smuggler badass we remember even if it makes no sense. Leia does nothing important at all...but by seeing her again it taps into your nostalgia. At one point, C3PO literally mugs the camera and says "Yes, it is I, C3PO! And I have a new arm!" for no reason but to make the audience go "OMG!! I REMEMBER HIM!! YEAH, STAR WARS!"

All this, and the man who crafted the original against all odds is shamelessly thrown to the curb, his original treatments for the sequel trilogy abandoned because EW LUCAS MADE THE PREQUELS! HES EVERYTHING WRONG WITH STAR WARS! Even tho he also made the originals...and at least the prequels for all their faults were unique stories and had good ideas--just bad execution. So for all the hype about how JJ and the Mouse were saving the franchise...what were their bright ideas? A new Death...Planet? OH BUT ITS BIGGER!! WOWEE!! A poor mans Vader who wears a mask for no reason, and takes it off to reveal a whiny loser pretty boy who throws temper tantrums? A token black guy whose motivation makes no sense (I dont wanna fight to Im gonna wipe out a bunch of my ex-comrades), a bunch of forced, obvious Nazi iconography to show the Empire--whoops, First Order--are bad guys, and a Mary Sue who can do literally anything as the lead. Theres a new lightsaber fight as expected, even tho it makes no sense a newbie could beat a trained Knight. Theres a new blow-up-the-death-star we've already seen in Episodes I, IV, and VI except with no tension whatsoever. There's an ugly, annoying woman-Yoda who's orange. A bland, forgettable new score from John Williams. All that's good in this movie are the scraps from Lucas' imagination, and the only reason people swallow this crap is because of the Star Wars brand. But no, f*** that guy, he's a hack. This guy Abrams tho, who has no originality whatsoever. no man, he's the savior of the galaxy. Thats why we made all the EU novels--many of which are far superior--not canon for his drivel. Bah, humbug.

I feel at this point I should explain that I personally thought the movie was ok. But thats it. Just ok. And for 4.5ish billion dollars...thats fucking disgraceful. With the keys to the kingdom--Kasdan, Williams, the original cast--even more so. How do you f*** that up--especially when all the speculative ideas for the new story, much of the EU novels, and possibly Lucas' scripts--were all so much better than the knock-off bullshit you came up with? The frustrating thing is, this seems to be good enough for people nowadays. People wave away ALL criticisms of this movie with either "well, it was better than the prequels!" or "what were you expecting--Star Wars always had bad acting/directing/story." Basically some derivative of "it was good enough" and without addressing the fact that if the latter is true...why does Star Wars even need to keep existing? If you acknowledge its just stupid action fantasy...cant we all agree it had its time in the sun and maybe, instead of spending a fortune to perpetuate crap, Disney could and should spend that trying something new? Why not give a new Lucas, an up and coming idealistic filmmaker, their chance to make their dream movie? Maybe it'll flop--but it could be the next big thing, and it would at least be fresh and interesting. But that wouldnt be a guaranteed, immediate return on investment which is all the executives want or care about.

Far more disturbing to me are the accusations of racism/sexism when people complain about not liking this, or the reminder of its reviews. The first "argument" is just ridiculous. The second...like it says in this article...you can literally feel the undercurrent of disappointment and that same attitude of "it was ok and its star wars so thats good enough." I sincerely believe without the brand this would be rightly ripped apart, and even with it, theres still an air of "meh" but nobody wants to go against the herd, and the professional critics were either paid off or are too afriad to offend Disney. More than anything tho, I hear people waiving away all the plot inconsistencies, plot holes, and unanswered questions as "oh, well thatll be explained in the next one." Which is part of the problem in Hollywood nowadays. It started with Deathly Hallows and already reached the absurd with the Hobbit being split into 3 whole films. Want a complete, satisfying story? f*** you, you'll have to pay double or triple to watch the other 2,3,4 planned sequels/parts you stupid consumer. AND WE PAY FOR IT. UGH, thats the worst fucking part. Hollywood is not only devoid of original ideas, theyre milking us for every cent, and all the while the sheep call the latest insulting bile "genius!" and "brilliant!" and anyone who complains is a cynic, an asshole...or just doesnt "get it."

I genuinely predict a reevaluation of TFA and the new trilogy in a few years time, to where they become just as reviled as the prequels. Right or wrong, you heard it here first. I base that assessment on the fact that those not in favor (that Ive seen) all have reasonable, well constructed arguments for their displeasure while those who argue in favor of the film rely almost entirely on nostalgia and name-calling to get their point across. As for myself, I recently said Heaven's Gate was the worst movie ever made, at least in terms of its impact on the development of cinema as an art form. Now, Im honestly wondering if it might just be TFA. Maybe thats an overstatement, but the amount of money wasted to make such a bland pile of crap, the hypnotizing effect of brand loyalty on the masses it demonstrates, and the sheer audacity of that opening line "this will begin to make things right" just to plagiarize the very man you just insulted with the rest of the movie all really rub me the wrong way. Im ashamed to have given this movie my money--but the allure of seeing it with a friend, and morbid curiosity all got the better of me. f*** this movie and all that it represents."

I acknowledge maybe I biased myself against it. I personally LOATHE JJ Abrams and everything hes ever done professionally. I think hes a total overrated hack, and I feared this movie would suck the second I heard he had been hired to direct. Ive been browsing IMDb on TFA board and Abrams board recently and found another comment someone made which really called it: (https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1918268_10153933803976414_4958603708423253720_n.jpg?oh=e4a3009293ab896f7876243cc4713bac&oe=5713E17B)


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Rocky Raccoon on December 31, 2015, 12:59:13 PM
So I take it you didn't like it?  :lol  I guess some fans were looking for something different than others. 

I disagree with you that the new characters were bland.  Rey and Finn both very quickly won me over, like I said I think those two actors are fantastic.  And I thought Adam Driver was great as well.  He always was the best thing about "Girls" (a show I no longer watch since Lena Dunham let fame go to her head).  I think the fact that he isn't the traditional villain type is kind of the point.  I suppose I can see if that doesn't work for some people but he certainly made an impression on me.  I think that pivotal scene between him and Harrison Ford will be remembered with some of the other classic moments of the original trilogy.

I will say I haven't seen the original Star Wars movies in a long time so the callbacks didn't annoy me as much as they did some people, I probably didn't even notice them.  And I like JJ Abrams much more than you do.  He helped develop "Lost" and "Fringe" which are two of my all time favorite TV shows (although he didn't really have much to do with either show beyond their respective first seasons).


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Emily on December 31, 2015, 03:45:21 PM
Mujan, thanks for the review. I'm haven't seen the movie. I'm avoiding disappointment.
My memory of the aftermath of Phantom Menace is different from yours. I remember a lot of people disappointed right out the door and within a year or so there was a garbage consensus. Maybe my memory is off; maybe that was just my friends?


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: the professor on December 31, 2015, 10:00:37 PM
The professor was never a fan of the Original Movies and did not see them until recently. The new film is an excellent film, an absolutely engaging and marvelous bit of meaningful filmmaking. It is an aesthetic success, and the characters are significant and meaningful and show tremendous chemistry with one another. I find some of the negative reviews posted here and in the press to be obvious and willful. The film is absolutely a masterpiece and I enjoyed every minute of it.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 01, 2016, 11:22:47 AM
The professor was never a fan of the Original Movies and did not see them until recently. The new film is an excellent film, an absolutely engaging and marvelous bit of meaningful filmmaking. It is an aesthetic success, and the characters are significant and meaningful and show tremendous chemistry with one another. I find some of the negative reviews posted here and in the press to be obvious and willful. The film is absolutely a masterpiece and I enjoyed every minute of it.

If youre not particularly attached to the originals i can see why you wouldnt be bothered so much. The main criticism stems from the fact that its almost a scene by scene remake of A New Hope, relies on a lot of nostalgia pandering and plays it WAY too safe to be a worthwhile continuation of the story. As a standalone movie, its a fun enjoyable enough action flick and special effects laden spectacle. Id hardly call it excellent or meaningful, let alone a masterpiece. Id be curious what other movies you think are worthy of that title if this is one of them. I have to ask tho...what negative reviews? So far, all reviews are mostly positive but (in my experience at least) with a notable undercurrent of disappointment. Like everyones giving it a pass for being "good enough" just because its Star Wars and not giving it the criticism it rightly deserves for being a lesser remake of the original when it didnt need to be, wasnt advertised that way, and both fan speculation and the now non-canon EU novels were much better.

Emily--yeah, obviously everyone's experience is different. For myself and my family/friends I remember everyone liking the prequels as they initially came out but after rewatching them and thinking about the plot and stuff, it would gradually dawn on us that they sucked. Yet, everyone would still hype up the next one and see it because hey...its star wars. Yeah, the last movie(s) sucked but this one'll be better because XYZ...right? And really, now that Im older, it kinda amuses me this insane brand loyalty thats increasingly unwarranted. Why do people line up in droves for this, and give a pass to an obviously flawed movie* just because its Star Wars? I guess the appeal this time is there were new people manning the ship, but at this point if the best they can do is rehash old ideas and throw annoying fan service in our face (like the training droid and hologram chess game for example) then I think Im done with this series. If nothing else, there's always Empire Strikes back to rewatch  ;D

*I know everyones taste in films is different, but there's no denying the acting and cinematography of the prequels wasnt very good. And however much people may like the new one, the script being essentially a reboot of ANH *is* absolutely an objective fault against it. It just depends on how much that bothers you, I guess.

Rocky--No, no I didnt :-D To be fair, its more about what this film represents that upsets me. As its own thing, its a decent to pretty good action/adventure movie. Its just the fact that 4.5 billion was spent making it when there are a hundred passionate young wannabe filmmakers who cant get their dream movies made because everything has to be a brand name, pre-sold idea with a built-in audience. I also dislike how the opportunity to have the 3 leads together was completely squandered since Luke is out of commission until his silent 30 second cameo at the end. HUGE wasted opportunity. I agree Rey and Finn were well acted, what bothers me is that Finns whole motivation is he doesnt want to fight...and then willfully starts killing his own former companions by the end of the movie. And Rey is a great pilot, and a great warrior, and speaks droid and other languages, and survived alone on the desert since she was a kid, and a superior force user to even the trained Kylo Ren, and there are half a dozen forced scenes where they go out of their way to show what a badass she is and its all just too much. Not that I have anything against a strong female protagonist but shes too perfect, too good at every possible thing with no plausible explanation and it not only ruined my immersion in the story but it kills a lot of tension. If she beats the villain without even any training...why should I feel invested in this journey? Its like in Episode I when someone mentions all the droids they gotta fight and Qui Gons just like "oh that wont be a problem" its like wow...now Im really excited. How will our heroes get out of this one? I get what they were going for with Kylo but he just came off looking silly at points and annoying at others. A story is only as strong as its antagonist, and if you cant take them seriously as a threat then who even cares?


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Emily on January 01, 2016, 03:37:30 PM
I do remember getting all excited all over again for the second prequel... thud. The third I was ready.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on January 01, 2016, 04:59:00 PM
Can't say that I am too interested in watching the Star Wars movies. I did watch The Martian recently and after reading so many positive comments about it I was surprised at how conventional and Hollywoody the movie ended up being.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 01, 2016, 08:14:34 PM
Can't say that I am too interested in watching the Star Wars movies. I did watch The Martian recently and after reading so many positive comments about it I was surprised at how conventional and Hollywoody the movie ended up being.

My sentiments exactly regarding TFA. Seriously, how does this get a 94% on rotten tomatoes and hateful eight only 74%? Something aint right here.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Jim V. on January 02, 2016, 11:48:36 AM
I also dislike how the opportunity to have the 3 leads together was completely squandered since Luke is out of commission until his silent 30 second cameo at the end. HUGE wasted opportunity.

I agree on this one. While it was amazing to have Hamill, Fisher and Ford back in Star Wars, it woulda been nice if we coulda had them all back together at least for a scene, and at best all together for at least one more adventure. But alas, we didn't get it.


And Rey is a great pilot, and a great warrior, and speaks droid and other languages, and survived alone on the desert since she was a kid, and a superior force user to even the trained Kylo Ren, and there are half a dozen forced scenes where they go out of their way to show what a badass she is and its all just too much. Not that I have anything against a strong female protagonist but shes too perfect, too good at every possible thing with no plausible explanation and it not only ruined my immersion in the story but it kills a lot of tension. If she beats the villain without even any training...why should I feel invested in this journey?

Is it possible that maybe there's something about Rey that we don't know? That maybe she was trained by Luke, and just doesn't remember? And perhaps (big surprise) she's Luke's daughter. Wouldn't that make a lot more sense of why she is so strong with the force? Sure would for me.

I get what they were going for with Kylo but he just came off looking silly at points and annoying at others. A story is only as strong as its antagonist, and if you cant take them seriously as a threat then who even cares?

I agree that Kylo/Ben looks pretty ridiculous (and not very powerful) at this point. But maybe that's the point. He suffered this humiliating defeat in this movie. Maybe now with all this Snoke will finally mold him into the powerful Vader type dude he's been pining to be?


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 02, 2016, 02:22:17 PM
I also dislike how the opportunity to have the 3 leads together was completely squandered since Luke is out of commission until his silent 30 second cameo at the end. HUGE wasted opportunity.

I agree on this one. While it was amazing to have Hamill, Fisher and Ford back in Star Wars, it woulda been nice if we coulda had them all back together at least for a scene, and at best all together for at least one more adventure. But alas, we didn't get it.


And Rey is a great pilot, and a great warrior, and speaks droid and other languages, and survived alone on the desert since she was a kid, and a superior force user to even the trained Kylo Ren, and there are half a dozen forced scenes where they go out of their way to show what a badass she is and its all just too much. Not that I have anything against a strong female protagonist but shes too perfect, too good at every possible thing with no plausible explanation and it not only ruined my immersion in the story but it kills a lot of tension. If she beats the villain without even any training...why should I feel invested in this journey?

Is it possible that maybe there's something about Rey that we don't know? That maybe she was trained by Luke, and just doesn't remember? And perhaps (big surprise) she's Luke's daughter. Wouldn't that make a lot more sense of why she is so strong with the force? Sure would for me.

I get what they were going for with Kylo but he just came off looking silly at points and annoying at others. A story is only as strong as its antagonist, and if you cant take them seriously as a threat then who even cares?

I agree that Kylo/Ben looks pretty ridiculous (and not very powerful) at this point. But maybe that's the point. He suffered this humiliating defeat in this movie. Maybe now with all this Snoke will finally mold him into the powerful Vader type dude he's been pining to be?


Glad we can agree on that. Seeing the old crew back together for one last adventure as they pass the torch was what really got me excited for this. Instead it just felt like...again...pandering. Of course we have ol' Han mention the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs because everyone loves that line and OMG ITS LIKE THE ORIGINALS AGAIN! But why do he and Leia not at least kiss or have a genuine tender moment? Instead its all expository dialogue and I felt no warmth or chemistry between them anymore. It ruined Hans character to abandon his hard-won wife and newfound cause of the Rebellion to go back to smuggling. Not only would the Han of ROTJ not do that, but the Han of ESB wouldnt do that. He risked his life for Luke, cared for Leia and was sincerely worried when he found out he was being used to lure Luke into Bespin. That Han would not turn his back on everything and go back to being a low life degenerate. No way. And why is Luke sitting on his ass as planets are being blown up, his friend killed and a rogue ex-Jedi allowed to terrorize the galaxy? Hes still relatively young and in good shape, he can and should help out. Was he just waiting for "the (new) chosen one" to "awaken" and find him? Why? Why not take a proactive role and teach them? Why not stop Kylo himself? If an untrained or barely trained little girl can do it, I presume he could to. Yeah, yeah, "oh well thatll be explained in the next movie." Well, if everyone else wants to see that good on them. But Im done with this series personally. ROTJ was severely flawed, the prequels had some decent moments but were mostly garbage, and now even under new hands the best they could offer was a corporate boardroom directed rehash with numerous plot holes we're expected to wave away until paying another $12 to see the next one. Screw that. There are other, better movies to watch.

Ive heard the Rey as Lukes daughter theory. If that turns out to be true I just gotta shake my head and roll my eyes. Why does everyone have to be related? I am your Father...brilliant. Leia is your sister...kinda stupid, but whatever. Vader built C3PO...fucking stupid. Rey is your daughter...get the f*** outta here and DO SOMETHING ORIGINAL. That would just be another example of rehashing the originals and playing it safe, to me. Its implied that Palpatine used the midi chlorians to create Anakin too, and there was even a scene where he straight up admits that to him but it was wisely cut. So I guess all the important people in the entire universe, good and bad, are one big happy family. How silly is that?


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Amanda Hart on January 02, 2016, 03:05:47 PM
Mujan - You summed up my husband's feelings exactly, I'll have to share your review with him because all of our friends are beating up on him for "not getting it"  ::)

Personally, I was never that into Star Wars, probably because my first experiences with the actual movies were when I was dragged to see Ep. 2 and 3 in theaters as a teen when I couldn't have cared less. TFA was definitely derivative and did come of as pandering (It's New Hope, but with feelings!), but at the end I found myself really curious about the direction they'll take everything in for the next one. I'm hoping Kylo comes away from this experience really twisted and gives him some layers other than whiny, emotional sith apprentice.

One more thing - why hire Gwendolyn Christie and not have her character involved in any sweet fight choreography?


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Douchepool on January 02, 2016, 05:49:08 PM
I loved the film and still do despite reading some other opinions on the internet. I was entertained. I hadn't had this much fun with a Star Wars movie since the original trilogy.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 02, 2016, 05:50:05 PM
Mujan - You summed up my husband's feelings exactly, I'll have to share your review with him because all of our friends are beating up on him for "not getting it"  ::)

Personally, I was never that into Star Wars, probably because my first experiences with the actual movies were when I was dragged to see Ep. 2 and 3 in theaters as a teen when I couldn't have cared less. TFA was definitely derivative and did come of as pandering (It's New Hope, but with feelings!), but at the end I found myself really curious about the direction they'll take everything in for the next one. I'm hoping Kylo comes away from this experience really twisted and gives him some layers other than whiny, emotional sith apprentice.

One more thing - why hire Gwendolyn Christie and not have her character involved in any sweet fight choreography?

Im glad Im not alone  ;D
Yeah, I didnt realize it was Brienne of Tarth as Silver Stormtrooper lady until I saw on IMDb later. It shouldve been her fighting Finn in hand to hand combat.

Perhaps they can still salvage it. I probably wont see the next one--at least not in theaters. But I tell ya, Ive got a bad feeling about this (SEE WHAT I DID THERE?!!? I REFERENCED THE ORIGINALS!?! DID YOU NOTICE THAT, HUH???). Something tells me they just rehash Empire Strikes Back next, with a few minor alterations as they did here, and still people will call it brilliant and/or make excuses for such a lazy direction because its Star Wars...and we're all supposed to like Star Wars, right? Even thought 4 out of the 7 movies sucked and one was just ok at best? To be fair I do think the original ESB is brilliant. But you wont achieve the same by merely copying something that was already done as perfectly as possible 40 years ago. The one glimmer of hope tho, is JJ Abrams isnt directing the next one and hopefully wont be involved in any future Star Wars projects again.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Amanda Hart on January 03, 2016, 09:40:50 AM

Something tells me they just rehash Empire Strikes Back next, with a few minor alterations as they did here

That's the fear, and it seems like it might be a real possibility. I'm hoping the callbacks, etc. are just being used to ease people in to the new episodes and the next one will take a turn toward a more original story, but that may be pretty optimistic.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mr. Verlander on January 03, 2016, 04:21:14 PM
I'm a hardcore Star Wars guy, and I thought it was pretty good. My biggest complaint was the Starkiller base, because they could've come up with something a little bit different. Besides that, it was really good.

A lot of people bitch about Kylo Ren, and I don't get it. I thought Adam Driver did a great job conveying the fact that Kylo is very torn between being good and bad. He did a hell of a lot better job than Hayden C. did in the prequels. He lets his emotions rule the show, which is what dark side guys do.

It's funny, because people who hate it say that the only reason people give it a pass is because "It's Star Wars!", and we're supposed to like it. The people that like it say that the people who hate it go out of their way to complain about every single little thing. Why not just enjoy it for what it is, a really good movie that you don't have to take so seriously. As I said, I've loved Star Wars for 35 years, and I'm not going to sit here and analyze every single scene in the movie, and try to find things to be upset about.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Emily on January 03, 2016, 08:48:26 PM
I'm a hardcore Star Wars guy, and I thought it was pretty good. My biggest complaint was the Starkiller base, because they could've come up with something a little bit different. Besides that, it was really good.

A lot of people bitch about Kylo Ren, and I don't get it. I thought Adam Driver did a great job conveying the fact that Kylo is very torn between being good and bad. He did a hell of a lot better job than Hayden C. did in the prequels. He lets his emotions rule the show, which is what dark side guys do.

It's funny, because people who hate it say that the only reason people give it a pass is because "It's Star Wars!", and we're supposed to like it. The people that like it say that the people who hate it go out of their way to complain about every single little thing. Why not just enjoy it for what it is, a really good movie that you don't have to take so seriously. As I said, I've loved Star Wars for 35 years, and I'm not going to sit here and analyze every single scene in the movie, and try to find things to be upset about.
As a major original Star Wars fan highly disappointed by the prequels, I'm curious how you felt about the originals vs the prequels. If our feelings are similar to mine, your recommendation of this movie will probably get me over my cowardice and I'll go see it.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mr. Verlander on January 04, 2016, 05:25:57 AM
The OT is great. ROTJ starts to go downhill a bit, although it's ultimately saved by the Luke/Vader fight and Vader's redemption. The prequels weren't very good. I can remember leaving The Phantom Menace and feeling like 'maybe it will grow on me'. The fights were great, although the politics and, yes, Jar Jar Binks, ruined it. Attack Of The Clones was terrible, I don't think I need to get into that. Revenge of The Sith was the best out of all of them, although I still think that Anakin was a bit quick to go to the Dark Side. And Hayden Christansen didn't do a very good job of appearing conflicted, he just seemed more like of a whiner. People have said that Kylo Ren is acts like a spoiled kid, but I think he does a good job being unhappy in his position.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Emily on January 04, 2016, 08:01:26 AM
The OT is great. ROTJ starts to go downhill a bit, although it's ultimately saved by the Luke/Vader fight and Vader's redemption. The prequels weren't very good. I can remember leaving The Phantom Menace and feeling like 'maybe it will grow on me'. The fights were great, although the politics and, yes, Jar Jar Binks, ruined it. Attack Of The Clones was terrible, I don't think I need to get into that. Revenge of The Sith was the best out of all of them, although I still think that Anakin was a bit quick to go to the Dark Side. And Hayden Christansen didn't do a very good job of appearing conflicted, he just seemed more like of a whiner. People have said that Kylo Ren is acts like a spoiled kid, but I think he does a good job being unhappy in his position.

I trust your judgment! I will try the new movie! Thanks.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Fire Wind on January 04, 2016, 08:03:17 AM
About an 8 and a half, or 8 and three quarters, from me, out of ten.  Perhaps a nine.  I need future viewings.

A couple of things I could have done without - Han being a smuggler again and that scene with the escaped rathtars and space pirates.  After the events of the OT, he should have been able to line his pockets in a more legit way and have his fingers in a lot of pies.  Could've been a big man.  As for the space pirates and the rathtars, the film should've slowed down at that point, not crammed in a load of pointless and unnecessary action.

The Starkiller thing, and the same old way to destroy it.  Not great.  First Order could've done something else to provoke.  And that's what it seems, a provocation, their version of a 9/11, with the Starkiller being a means to an end, rather than being a means of punishment to quash dissent in an empire that's already established.  In that sense, that particular element of the original plots has been repurposed for the new trilogy.  That's okay.  I'm guessing the next films won't feature anything like it.

Han's passing felt kind of stagey.  Did it have to be on one of those bridge things?  Cooler if they had met by accident while running around the place.

I liked how the film didn't explain much at all, but kept it all surfacey so you're just viewing the action.  Adds to the mythic effect and you leave with your own thoughts and wonderings.  I imagine we'll learn a lot more about it in the following films.  Rey's background, for example, and how she has such power that grows so quickly.  I don't have a problem with her having such power, given we don't know her past.  At this stage, I assume she was trained at some point and the flashback with the lightsabre re-awakened it in her.  That, plus probing Kylo Ren's mind probably helped.  We don't know what she knows at the end.  Not much is said.  It even ends without words and info.  I figure this film'll grow as we learn more of their past.  It'll get even better in future, good though it already is.

The new leads were just as good as the old ones.  The relationship between the three should make for extremely potent drama in the next films.  I loved the ending.  Rey grabbing the lightsabre, the blend of action and music, it felt near-Wagnerian.  I don't say that just to sound like a knob.  It actually felt like a bit of Parsifal, like when the spear halts in midair, or when he returns at the end to heal the king.  A magical moment.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 04, 2016, 12:21:30 PM
I'm a hardcore Star Wars guy, and I thought it was pretty good. My biggest complaint was the Starkiller base, because they could've come up with something a little bit different. Besides that, it was really good.

A lot of people bitch about Kylo Ren, and I don't get it. I thought Adam Driver did a great job conveying the fact that Kylo is very torn between being good and bad. He did a hell of a lot better job than Hayden C. did in the prequels. He lets his emotions rule the show, which is what dark side guys do.

It's funny, because people who hate it say that the only reason people give it a pass is because "It's Star Wars!", and we're supposed to like it. The people that like it say that the people who hate it go out of their way to complain about every single little thing. Why not just enjoy it for what it is, a really good movie that you don't have to take so seriously. As I said, I've loved Star Wars for 35 years, and I'm not going to sit here and analyze every single scene in the movie, and try to find things to be upset about.

There seem to be two kinds of people when it comes to movies. Those that enjoy the escapism and those that enjoy the art/technique. The former say "hey it kept me entertained for 2 hours and isnt that the point?" while the latter say "yeah but the story was derivative and the execution flawed etc" Different strokes. But I dont think anyone here has meticulously picked apart every little thing to complain about little continuity errors or other BS as youre implying. Ive mostly kept my criticisms to big things; the story is a rehash, the new characters are badly written, the old characters are wasted and as a whole this movie is the embodiment of all thats wrong with hollywood, with over-priced sequels/remakes blocking out all creativity. If George Lucas was a young man trying to make Star Wars in Hollywood today, it would NEVER be financed, and there are a hundred young, passionate people out there now who cant get their movies made because the studios would rather pay billions to buy up established brands and milk them to death. If that doesnt bother you, fair enough, but please dont misrepresent where criticism of this movie comes from. Its not little things people are needlessly obsessing over, its the big overall trend in Hollywood which this film represents which has gotten a vocal minority upset.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: MarcellaHasDirtyFeet on January 05, 2016, 10:53:40 AM
I feel both ways about this movie simultaneously. Wasted opportunities abound, and weird choices took me out of the story. That said, I could probably watch it again and again and be a little bit thrilled each time.

What the heck was the deal with the focus on the bowcaster, anyway?


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Jcc on January 05, 2016, 12:49:18 PM


If George Lucas was a young man trying to make Star Wars in Hollywood today, it would NEVER be financed, and there are a hundred young, passionate people out there now who cant get their movies made because the studios would rather pay billions to buy up established brands and milk them to death. If that doesnt bother you, fair enough, but please dont misrepresent where criticism of this movie comes from. Its not little things people are needlessly obsessing over, its the big overall trend in Hollywood which this film represents which has gotten a vocal minority upset.

I agree the 1970's were a different era, but aren't the complaints a little bit of "sour grapes"?  Lucas was a successful filmmaker before Star Wars.  Everyone forgets that he made American Graffiti years earlier on a shoestring budget and it turned out to be a huge success.  It's sort of how Ryan Coogler made Fruitvale Station and then parlayed that success into Creed.  Lucas had a big, successful picture under his belt...it was the only way he got the green light to do Star Wars.  And if Star Wars had bombed, I doubt Lucas would have ever been allowed to make another movie.   


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 05, 2016, 03:47:18 PM


If George Lucas was a young man trying to make Star Wars in Hollywood today, it would NEVER be financed, and there are a hundred young, passionate people out there now who cant get their movies made because the studios would rather pay billions to buy up established brands and milk them to death. If that doesnt bother you, fair enough, but please dont misrepresent where criticism of this movie comes from. Its not little things people are needlessly obsessing over, its the big overall trend in Hollywood which this film represents which has gotten a vocal minority upset.

I agree the 1970's were a different era, but aren't the complaints a little bit of "sour grapes"?  Lucas was a successful filmmaker before Star Wars.  Everyone forgets that he made American Graffiti years earlier on a shoestring budget and it turned out to be a huge success.  It's sort of how Ryan Coogler made Fruitvale Station and then parlayed that success into Creed.  Lucas had a big, successful picture under his belt...it was the only way he got the green light to do Star Wars.  And if Star Wars had bombed, I doubt Lucas would have ever been allowed to make another movie.   


I'm well aware of American Graffiti. I actually prefer it to Star Wars in fact. Still fail to see the point. The late 60s and 70s was the New Hollywood Era when young unproven directors were given a lot of free reign to make whatever movies they wanted. I still maintain something like Star Wars would never be made today, nor would Mean Streets and Taxi Driver, nor Godfather (which almost didn't get made anyway) nowadays. How is that sour grapes to point out the truth? Since, ironically, the original Star Wars and Jaws the focus is all on big blockbusters with a lot of emphasis on marketing and appealing to a broad audience. Since Heavens Gate, young directors are very rarely given control anymore--the power is with the executives unless a director has enough clout, which is becoming increasingly more rare. It's not sour grapes, it's the truth.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Emily on January 05, 2016, 06:13:30 PM
So many great 70s movies.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on January 06, 2016, 06:43:35 AM
So many great 70s movies.

Now there's an excellent thread waiting to happen!


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Emily on January 06, 2016, 08:05:30 AM
Mujan, I sense that I'm about halfway between you and Mr. Verlander. You seem to have better recall and more attention to detail and a better sense of theme than I do, but I suspect I'm fussier than Mr. Verlander. Mr. Verlander's review gave me some hope, but I'm still wary!


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Emily on January 06, 2016, 08:06:01 AM
So many great 70s movies.

Now there's an excellent thread waiting to happen!
I'll try to think of a kick-off.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Jcc on January 06, 2016, 11:09:49 AM
Mujan,

You're not wrong, but there's no way any studio (for justifiable reasons) is going to throw tens of millions of dollars at some young, unproven director with big ideas and no track record.  It's an incredible risk for the entire studio if the movie bombs.  Sure, maybe the movie becomes as successful as Star Wars or ET or Jaws or Raiders of the Lost Ark...or it turns into Heavens Gate.  Which, by the way, is what ended the glorious era in American movies which you cite.  That film literally killed United Artists as an independent studio, even though MGM (its new corporate owner) revived the name later on.  And even then, the studio was gambling on Michael Cimino, who already had a proven success with Deer Hunter.

A movie or franchise like Star Wars could still be made today, but you'd need a filmmaker with a proven record of success, even if his record was just making incredibly successful Indie films.  At the same time, I don't think the original Star Wars was necessarily over budget or expensive to make.  Lucas used puppets, model spacecraft, and London soundstages (aside from the Tunisian scenes).   To prove my point, I would cite the Lord of the Rings trilogy.  New Line Cinema literally bet the entire farm on Fellowship of the Ring, and on a director who was somewhat well-known but certainly no Spielberg.  If Fellowship had bombed, that would have been the end of Jackson and New Line.  But the gamble paid off.

Besides, you should be hoping Star Wars makes billions for Disney.  A wealthy studio with lots of cash is a lot more likely to greenlight experiments because they can afford to bear the risk if the "hot young filmmaker" turns out to be not quite so hot.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 06, 2016, 04:10:04 PM
Mujan,

You're not wrong, but there's no way any studio (for justifiable reasons) is going to throw tens of millions of dollars at some young, unproven director with big ideas and no track record.  It's an incredible risk for the entire studio if the movie bombs.  Sure, maybe the movie becomes as successful as Star Wars or ET or Jaws or Raiders of the Lost Ark...or it turns into Heavens Gate.  Which, by the way, is what ended the glorious era in American movies which you cite.  That film literally killed United Artists as an independent studio, even though MGM (its new corporate owner) revived the name later on.  And even then, the studio was gambling on Michael Cimino, who already had a proven success with Deer Hunter.

A movie or franchise like Star Wars could still be made today, but you'd need a filmmaker with a proven record of success, even if his record was just making incredibly successful Indie films.  At the same time, I don't think the original Star Wars was necessarily over budget or expensive to make.  Lucas used puppets, model spacecraft, and London soundstages (aside from the Tunisian scenes).   To prove my point, I would cite the Lord of the Rings trilogy.  New Line Cinema literally bet the entire farm on Fellowship of the Ring, and on a director who was somewhat well-known but certainly no Spielberg.  If Fellowship had bombed, that would have been the end of Jackson and New Line.  But the gamble paid off.

Besides, you should be hoping Star Wars makes billions for Disney.  A wealthy studio with lots of cash is a lot more likely to greenlight experiments because they can afford to bear the risk if the "hot young filmmaker" turns out to be not quite so hot.

Possibly. Or it could convince them that the way forward is more bland generic rehashes. Either way, this movie is making bank so its a moot point.

Maybe not every movie (or half of all movies or whatever it is now) needs to cost a quarter to a third of a billion dollars and be a big special effects extravaganza? Maybe rather than buy Star Wars and Marvel, big studios could just...you know...make their own sci-fi/fantasy stories? Thats my beef with the whole situation. Why not make a few dozen lower budget films with great scripts that tell deeper stories? Sure, some of them may flop. But if a $10 million to $50 million movie flops its a drop in the bucket. To a big studio like Disney, its literally peanuts. And out of say a dozen or so of those, at least 1 to 3 are statistically likely to be big surprise hits that could possibly launch new franchises people arent getting sick of. Thats planning for the future, thats allowing for new talent to prove themselves so the Lucas' and Spielberg's and Cameron's of the future have an opportunity to learn and test their chops. Not to mention new actors. Hopefully youre right and this big monster success will be used to fund more low risk, high creativity projects like that. Im skeptical, but I hope Im wrong.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on January 06, 2016, 05:21:54 PM
The only thing I can see happening that allows for more consistent production of creative and experimental movies is the same thing that happened the last time: the collapse of the studios.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 06, 2016, 05:54:51 PM
The only thing I can see happening that allows for more consistent production of creative and experimental movies is the same thing that happened the last time: the collapse of the studios.

Or else another surprise success from a young independent hotshot, like with Bonnie and Clyde or Pulp Fiction.

Coincidentally, the sinking of the studios--at least one of them--may not be far off. Lucas and Spielberg have alluded to this. And it explains why 2 out of every 3 movies these days, or so it seems, is a safe marketable reboot or sequel of an established property. Most studios cant afford a big flop so theyre afraid to take risks. Ironically, if they followed my advice and just lay off the 250 million dollar shlock-fests with a 200 million dollar ad campaign they wouldnt need every picture to be a hit to stay afloat.

The real medium to follow these days is TV, not film. And again, this isnt me talking out of my ass. People in show business have been saying as much for a few years now. If you want to tell a great story with relative creative control and plenty of time to flesh out the plot and develop good characters--put it on TV, especially Netflix, HBO and AMC. Thats where the foreseeable future of motion pictures are. Ive enjoyed Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Community and others far more than ANY movie Ive seen in theaters the past 10~15 years, personally. The only films Ive really enjoyed in that time span, and enough to buy on DVD/bluray and watch again and again, are Quentin Tarantino and Chris Nolan's movies, along with the original Pirates of the Caribbean. I honestly cant think of anything else, tho admittedly there may be one or two others that arent coming to mind right now.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on January 06, 2016, 06:22:58 PM
The real medium to follow these days is TV, not film. And again, this isnt me talking out of my ass. People in show business have been saying as much for a few years now. If you want to tell a great story with relative creative control and plenty of time to flesh out the plot and develop good characters--put it on TV, especially Netflix, HBO and AMC. Thats where the foreseeable future of motion pictures are. Ive enjoyed Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Community and others far more than ANY movie Ive seen in theaters the past 10~15 years, personally. The only films Ive really enjoyed in that time span, and enough to buy on DVD/bluray and watch again and again, are Quentin Tarantino and Chris Nolan's movies, along with the original Pirates of the Caribbean. I honestly cant think of anything else, tho admittedly there may be one or two others that arent coming to mind right now.

TV has definitely been at its best in the last 10-15 years. And while film has definitely not been at its best (far from it), I do think there have been some great movies out since 2001. I've opened the file on my computer I have of favourite movies so that explains the chronological accuracy of the list:

Amelie, Ghost World, Mulholland Drive, Y Tu Mama Tambien, Dirty Pretty Things, Closer, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, The Squid and the Whale, Water, After the Wedding, I'm Not There, There Will Be Blood, Synecdoche New York, A Serious Man, Fantastic Mr. Fox, The Informant!, Inglourious Basterds, Hugo, The Tree of Life, Django Unchained, Frances Ha, Nebraska, The Grand Budapest Hotel,  The Big Short

That's not a complete list but, in my opinion, makes for some pretty fantastic watching. Can't say I'm a big fan of Nolan to be honest, but people I respect love him so what do I know.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 06, 2016, 06:37:18 PM
The real medium to follow these days is TV, not film. And again, this isnt me talking out of my ass. People in show business have been saying as much for a few years now. If you want to tell a great story with relative creative control and plenty of time to flesh out the plot and develop good characters--put it on TV, especially Netflix, HBO and AMC. Thats where the foreseeable future of motion pictures are. Ive enjoyed Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Community and others far more than ANY movie Ive seen in theaters the past 10~15 years, personally. The only films Ive really enjoyed in that time span, and enough to buy on DVD/bluray and watch again and again, are Quentin Tarantino and Chris Nolan's movies, along with the original Pirates of the Caribbean. I honestly cant think of anything else, tho admittedly there may be one or two others that arent coming to mind right now.

TV has definitely been at its best in the last 10-15 years. And while film has definitely not been at its best (far from it), I do think there have been some great movies out since 2001. I've opened the file on my computer I have of favourite movies so that explains the chronological accuracy of the list:

Amelie, Ghost World, Mulholland Drive, Y Tu Mama Tambien, Dirty Pretty Things, Closer, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, The Squid and the Whale, Water, After the Wedding, I'm Not There, There Will Be Blood, Synecdoche New York, A Serious Man, Fantastic Mr. Fox, The Informant!, Inglourious Basterds, Hugo, The Tree of Life, Django Unchained, Frances Ha, Nebraska, The Grand Budapest Hotel,  The Big Short

That's not a complete list but, in my opinion, makes for some pretty fantastic watching. Can't say I'm a big fan of Nolan to be honest, but people I respect love him so what do I know.

To be fair, while I love it, Inception is overrated. And Dark Knight Rises sucked.

Anyway, thanks for the list. Ill check some of those out sometime


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Douchepool on January 06, 2016, 06:41:44 PM
A personal favorite from the 2000s is About Schmidt. Nicholson was robbed of the Oscar for that one.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on January 06, 2016, 06:57:21 PM
A personal favorite from the 2000s is About Schmidt. Nicholson was robbed of the Oscar for that one.

That was a good one too, absolutely.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Paul J B on January 11, 2016, 10:36:05 AM
I just saw this movie and although I liked it to an extent the more I think about it.....it was pretty disappointing. So much was a total rip off of the original that I feel like I was ripped off. All of these years and all of these people involved and this is the best story they could come up with? Seriously...a death star weapon for a THIRD time. Hamill pops in at the end for a cameo and does not say a word? The new actors were all fine, especially Rey, but they totally blew an opportunity to do something with the original three. I'm glad Lucas was not involved in this because he was also out of ideas 35 years ago, but this new writer/director team is no better.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 11, 2016, 11:25:35 AM
I just saw this movie and although I liked it to an extent the more I think about it.....it was pretty disappointing. So much was a total rip off of the original that I feel like I was ripped off. All of these years and all of these people involved and this is the best story they could come up with? Seriously...a death star weapon for a THIRD time. Hamill pops in at the end for a cameo and does not say a word? The new actors were all fine, especially Rey, but they totally blew an opportunity to do something with the original three. I'm glad Lucas was not involved in this because he was also out of ideas 35 years ago, but this new writer/director team is no better.

Join us on the Dark side, brother!  ;D

Honestly I think this is a very common reaction with this film and a lot of JJ's other works. They entertain but they dont impress. You walk away saying "yeah, that was alright. It was fun" but after you go home and analyze what you just saw, and the hype and fun die down, you realize it wasnt that good. Not enough to justify all the blanket praise everyone else seems to be heaping on it. I expect this consensus to emerge over time.

The only thing I would disagree on is that Lucas is out of ideas. Say what you will about his directing and scripts, but the man is a great idea guy. Hes good at coming up with a big picture for others to flesh out and make into great movies. He may not have written the script, but it was his idea for all the broad strokes in Empire. I think thats where Disney really dropped the ball with this. Lucas wrote broad outlines that Im sure were good or at least better than this rehash and shouldve been used. It comes off as really ungrateful and hypocritical of Abrams and company to throw out his ideas, and not-so-subtly take a swipe at him "this will begin to make things right" in the new movie if the best they could do is rip off his earlier ideas. And Ill say this too, looking at Lucas' recent interviews shows hes a smart guy who understands how lousy the industry has become mostly because of Star Wars itself. He's not a moron. Abrams on the other hand...watching his interviews just makes me roll my eyes because this guy has no clue what hes doing and I think got in over his head with this. 


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Paul J B on January 11, 2016, 12:34:06 PM
I just saw this movie and although I liked it to an extent the more I think about it.....it was pretty disappointing. So much was a total rip off of the original that I feel like I was ripped off. All of these years and all of these people involved and this is the best story they could come up with? Seriously...a death star weapon for a THIRD time. Hamill pops in at the end for a cameo and does not say a word? The new actors were all fine, especially Rey, but they totally blew an opportunity to do something with the original three. I'm glad Lucas was not involved in this because he was also out of ideas 35 years ago, but this new writer/director team is no better.

Join us on the Dark side, brother!  ;D

Honestly I think this is a very common reaction with this film and a lot of JJ's other works. They entertain but they dont impress. You walk away saying "yeah, that was alright. It was fun" but after you go home and analyze what you just saw, and the hype and fun die down, you realize it wasnt that good. Not enough to justify all the blanket praise everyone else seems to be heaping on it. I expect this consensus to emerge over time.

The only thing I would disagree on is that Lucas is out of ideas. Say what you will about his directing and scripts, but the man is a great idea guy. Hes good at coming up with a big picture for others to flesh out and make into great movies. He may not have written the script, but it was his idea for all the broad strokes in Empire. I think thats where Disney really dropped the ball with this. Lucas wrote broad outlines that Im sure were good or at least better than this rehash and shouldve been used. It comes off as really ungrateful and hypocritical of Abrams and company to throw out his ideas, and not-so-subtly take a swipe at him "this will begin to make things right" in the new movie if the best they could do is rip off his earlier ideas. And Ill say this too, looking at Lucas' recent interviews shows hes a smart guy who understands how lousy the industry has become mostly because of Star Wars itself. He's not a moron. Abrams on the other hand...watching his interviews just makes me roll my eyes because this guy has no clue what hes doing and I think got in over his head with this. 

I'm not confident Lucas would have led to something great...wasn't Phantom Menace his story line? I could be wrong though. In any case if it was supposed to be a remake or reboot it should have been billed that way. This was the "next" installment....except it wasn't...why oh why are people involved in Hollywood so ignorant so often. It's youtube so take with a grain of salt, but the link below takes you to an honest calm approach as to why this film failed on so many levels. The guy touches mostly on the way it was a carbon copy from A New Hope but there is so much more wrong with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPgtvVTmJMg


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 11, 2016, 02:23:14 PM
I just saw this movie and although I liked it to an extent the more I think about it.....it was pretty disappointing. So much was a total rip off of the original that I feel like I was ripped off. All of these years and all of these people involved and this is the best story they could come up with? Seriously...a death star weapon for a THIRD time. Hamill pops in at the end for a cameo and does not say a word? The new actors were all fine, especially Rey, but they totally blew an opportunity to do something with the original three. I'm glad Lucas was not involved in this because he was also out of ideas 35 years ago, but this new writer/director team is no better.

Join us on the Dark side, brother!  ;D

Honestly I think this is a very common reaction with this film and a lot of JJ's other works. They entertain but they dont impress. You walk away saying "yeah, that was alright. It was fun" but after you go home and analyze what you just saw, and the hype and fun die down, you realize it wasnt that good. Not enough to justify all the blanket praise everyone else seems to be heaping on it. I expect this consensus to emerge over time.

The only thing I would disagree on is that Lucas is out of ideas. Say what you will about his directing and scripts, but the man is a great idea guy. Hes good at coming up with a big picture for others to flesh out and make into great movies. He may not have written the script, but it was his idea for all the broad strokes in Empire. I think thats where Disney really dropped the ball with this. Lucas wrote broad outlines that Im sure were good or at least better than this rehash and shouldve been used. It comes off as really ungrateful and hypocritical of Abrams and company to throw out his ideas, and not-so-subtly take a swipe at him "this will begin to make things right" in the new movie if the best they could do is rip off his earlier ideas. And Ill say this too, looking at Lucas' recent interviews shows hes a smart guy who understands how lousy the industry has become mostly because of Star Wars itself. He's not a moron. Abrams on the other hand...watching his interviews just makes me roll my eyes because this guy has no clue what hes doing and I think got in over his head with this. 

I'm not confident Lucas would have led to something great...wasn't Phantom Menace his story line? I could be wrong though. In any case if it was supposed to be a remake or reboot it should have been billed that way. This was the "next" installment....except it wasn't...why oh why are people involved in Hollywood so ignorant so often. It's youtube so take with a grain of salt, but the link below takes you to an honest calm approach as to why this film failed on so many levels. The guy touches mostly on the way it was a carbon copy from A New Hope but there is so much more wrong with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPgtvVTmJMg

Because if they did, they wouldnt be making a billion dollars right now with next to no effort put in creatively.

Yes, it was. Say what you will about the Prequels tho, the basic ideas were mostly very good. It was the execution--the script and direction--which sucked. But the basic plot of a great noble knight tragically seduced by the dark side, and a scheming mastermind playing both sides of a war for his own gain, the fall of the Jedi, the political intrigue, even the basic idea of the neo-noir type detective story with Obi-Wan in Episode 2...it all couldve been really good. He just needed another Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas and Irvin Kershner to help with the story, editing and directing respectively. But the basic story outlines for ALL the movies have been his. People act like he had nothing to do with Empire because he didnt write or direct, but the general outline of the story was his, and it was very good. Id certainly like to at least read his outline, but Im sure it'll never be seen--hes probably under some non disclosure agreement about it, and they dont want to release it because they dont want people second guessing "Hey, this actually mightve made for a better story." Id certainly prefer even a mediocre new story to an unimaginative remake billed as a sequel as you say. The fan speculation and old EU novels provided some good material to work from if they were out of ideas. It wouldnt have been that hard to do something new and good. But this is what JJ does. Look at Star Trek Into Darkness, its a shameless Wrath of Khan ripoff. And you can literally feel the corporate overlords behind the scenes ("make sure there's a reference to Darth Vader, and the Falcon, and C3PO...gotta have a desert landscape, and a new Death Star--the fans like that stuff."


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Paul J B on January 11, 2016, 05:15:52 PM
I know Lucas was responsible for most of the narrative in the first 3. Not sure if it was him or who exactly,  but the people that thought Phantom Menace should be in large part the story of a little kid in what amounts to a go cart race should be ashamed of themselves. Kids swarmed to the original 3 without a little kid character to relate to. That and the terrible actor that played teenage/twenty something Anakin is the main reason the prequels are hard to sit through.

Speaking of Abrams and Star Trek, that was equally horrible having Kirk as a kid steal a car, especially after the fallout from Phantom Menace and that kid. These Hollywood big wigs are clueless buffoons. No one needs or wants to see the main character in a sci- if fantasy action film as a kid.  I did not see Into Darkness but know from word of mouth it's a Kahn ripoff. I now know why so many people were upset when they heard Abrams would at the helm for Star Wars 7. What I'm puzzled about is why more people don't seem to think its a big disappointment.

And speaking of Batman, Batman Begins has a kid in it but surprisingly that worked. That whole trilogy was excellent as far as that genre goes. Instead of letting well enough alone we will now get a crap Batman with Ben Afflek. I'll pass thanks.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Emily on January 11, 2016, 05:27:08 PM
Say what you will about the Prequels tho, the basic ideas were mostly very good. It was the execution--the script and direction--which sucked. But the basic plot of a great noble knight tragically seduced by the dark side, and a scheming mastermind playing both sides of a war for his own gain, the fall of the Jedi, the political intrigue, even the basic idea of the neo-noir type detective story with Obi-Wan in Episode 2...it all couldve been really good. He just needed another Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas and Irvin Kershner to help with the story, editing and directing respectively.

I agree with the above.


I know Lucas was responsible for most of the narrative in the first 3. Not sure if it was him or who exactly,  but the people that thought Phantom Menace should be in large part the story of a little kid in what amounts to a go cart race should be ashamed of themselves. Kids swarmed to the original 3 without a little kid character to relate to. That and the terrible actor that played teenage/twenty something Anakin is the main reason the prequels are hard to sit through.

But boy do I also agree with this.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Jim V. on January 11, 2016, 05:49:46 PM
I have to say Mujan, it seems like while you make a few good points, that you always seem to know better than the creators of the material that you seem to like on one level or another. For instance, even though Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks got together and finished SMiLE in their opinion, that it's somehow not acceptable to you, even though they, you know, wrote fuckin' "Heroes and Villains" and "Surf's Up" and "Child Is Father Of The Man." And as far as I know, you haven't.

Then with Star Wars, I think it's possible you forgot that the franchise was not stolen from him in the middle of the night. In fact, he was paid a heck of a lot of money for it. He very well could have kept things how they were and made his own new trilogy. Or he could have chosen to leave well enough alone.

Now don't get me wrong, this board is about many things, including different ideas and theories about SMiLE and The Beach Boys. But things are how they are. And if these things are so offensive to your sensibilities, I invite you to make better music and/or movies.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 11, 2016, 07:05:01 PM
I have to say Mujan, it seems like while you make a few good points, that you always seem to know better than the creators of the material that you seem to like on one level or another. For instance, even though Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks got together and finished SMiLE in their opinion, that it's somehow not acceptable to you, even though they, you know, wrote fuckin' "Heroes and Villains" and "Surf's Up" and "Child Is Father Of The Man." And as far as I know, you haven't.

Then with Star Wars, I think it's possible you forgot that the franchise was not stolen from him in the middle of the night. In fact, he was paid a heck of a lot of money for it. He very well could have kept things how they were and made his own new trilogy. Or he could have chosen to leave well enough alone.

Now don't get me wrong, this board is about many things, including different ideas and theories about SMiLE and The Beach Boys. But things are how they are. And if these things are so offensive to your sensibilities, I invite you to make better music and/or movies.

SMiLE, the 66/67 album is pretty up for grabs. Im totally aware that Im probably annoying a lot of people with my adamant opinions and the way I phrase them, but its just my manner of speaking. I dont think its necessary to say IMO after every sentence or whatever, and if I think my opinion is right and yours is wrong, Im gonna argue my side. It may turn some people off, but...hey...thats me. Im here to get my theories on the matter out there, because many of them Ive never seen anyone propose before and I believe they deserve to be considered, and Im also here to possibly learn some things on the subject that I didnt before. FWIW, this board has been a great reasource for that. Im not here to make friends. I realize some people really like BWPS and consider it the final word. Thats great, and dont let some joker on a board ruin that for you. But for me, based on what Ive read, my playing around with the music for a few years off and on now, my own sensibilities, and speculation, I strongly feel SMiLE is different than BWPS. And being that this is a forum which discusses such things, I come here to speak my piece on the matter. I wasnt aware you had to be a recorded artist to have an opinion on such things. Guess we better ban all discussion that isnt blind praise of all material as is  >:D

Anyway, with this movie...I think it sucked. That really shouldnt bother anyone who liked it a lot--its making more money than anything ever and for some reason is in the 90s on RT last I checked. I would think most fans would be laughing at the little people like me, so oviously outvoted. But that doesnt change the fact that Lucas for all his faults was a good idea guy and wrote outlines for what he wanted to happen--which I suspect he was under the impression Disney might use--that got thrown out. And then, just to rub his face in it, the first line of the new movie is a flick in his nose and they blow up Courascant and I believe Naboo as well (the two most prominent new Prequel planets) just to spit in his face. I think its a fair opinion to say thats pretty damn cold and unnecessary. And Im starting to see the public opinion on Lucas shift again. He was beloved, then hated after the Special Editions and Prequels, but now after (to some) Episode 7 was a disappointment, and again these jabs at him, and also his recent interviews were he comes off not only as very intelligent and down to earth but also kinda upset over the situation, I think people's opinions are resting more in the middle now. Mine certainly are. My honest thoughts are that he wanted the franchise to live on and knew the fans would prefer it if they didnt under him. But you can tell hes not too happy in the new movie or where the franchise seems to be headed. Hes called it a divorce even--and if you know how badly he was hurt by his real life divorce which most friends say he's never gotten over, you realize the significance of that word choice. I just think the whole situation is very sad, and I think Lucas is a very flawed but ultimately tragic man in many ways. Yes yes, hes rich. But money doesnt buy happiness. And he donated that money from the sale to charity, so props for that. I realize he didnt technically have to sell but my impression is that in his mind he actually did feel that way. And I shouldnt have to be a professional filmmaker to say so.



Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 11, 2016, 07:32:01 PM
I know Lucas was responsible for most of the narrative in the first 3. Not sure if it was him or who exactly,  but the people that thought Phantom Menace should be in large part the story of a little kid in what amounts to a go cart race should be ashamed of themselves. Kids swarmed to the original 3 without a little kid character to relate to. That and the terrible actor that played teenage/twenty something Anakin is the main reason the prequels are hard to sit through.

Speaking of Abrams and Star Trek, that was equally horrible having Kirk as a kid steal a car, especially after the fallout from Phantom Menace and that kid. These Hollywood big wigs are clueless buffoons. No one needs or wants to see the main character in a sci- if fantasy action film as a kid.  I did not see Into Darkness but know from word of mouth it's a Kahn ripoff. I now know why so many people were upset when they heard Abrams would at the helm for Star Wars 7. What I'm puzzled about is why more people don't seem to think its a big disappointment.

And speaking of Batman, Batman Begins has a kid in it but surprisingly that worked. That whole trilogy was excellent as far as that genre goes. Instead of letting well enough alone we will now get a crap Batman with Ben Afflek. I'll pass thanks.


I agree. Thats a huge problem with the prequels--wasting a whole movie on little kid Anakin and Qui Gon doing things Obi Wan shouldve done. Someone very early on shouldve scrapped that and had 2 and 3 be stretched out over 3 movies not 2. The thing which kinda almost maybe redeems 1 for me is the Darth Jar Jar theory. If you havent, look it up on Reddit and there are many Youtube videos as well. Basically the theory is Jar Jar was a Sith lord who conspired to lead the Jedi to Anakin. Im not gonna go into all the evidence, but there actually is a lot. If you read the original Reddit post and comments (which add things the original poster missed) it makes a lot of sense even tho Im sure it sounds like a lame joke to you now. The idea is, there was going to be a twist in 2 where Jar Jar reveals himself--akin to the big I am your Father reveal in 5. But the backlash against Jar Jar was SO great that either Lucas abandoned the idea for fear of alienating fans more, or else someone else FINALLY stepped in and said "No George, bad idea" (which shouldve happened about 100 times during Episode 1's production) because they feared having him be prominent in 2 again would kill box office returns since he was so despised. The actor who played Jar Jar has confirmed this theory on Twitter, fwiw. He also confirmed extensive rewrites to the later 2 prequels because of the backlash. Some speculate that the lame, undeveloped Count Dooku character was a semi-last minute attempt to fix the script; that Jar Jar was originally going to do what Dooku does in the movie, including fighting Yoda. That wouldve been a FANTASTIC reveal if done right. Remember, Obi Wan is a detective in that movie trying to find out whos trying to kill Padme. Imagine how shocking if the answer was the bumbling fool everyone's been misjudging all along. And he gives powers to the Chancellor in that movie too.

Even if this theory is actually wrong...its amazing to think about. I honestly think had this idea been executed well (again, thats the key) it wouldve helped make the prequels just as awesome as the originals. So...yeah. Say what you will about his directing and dialog, but Lucas is undeniably a great visionary. Contrast with Abrams who's a competent director and decent enough script writer...but no storyteller, much less visionary. 


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Jim V. on January 11, 2016, 07:39:06 PM
I realize some people really like BWPS and consider it the final word.

This is what I don't get. "Some people" consider BWPS the final word? It's Brian Wilson's final word on his music. Not yours. You have nothing to do with that music besides the fact that you are a listener. You can play around with it all you want but it's not your intellectual property. I guess you can choose to live in an alternate reality where Brian didn't issue BWPS or even his "second" final world, The SMiLE Sessions, but it's not reality. I suppose I could choose to live in an alternate reality where George W. Bush was never President, Dr. Dre released more albums and I got to see Michael Jackson perform live. But alas, things are what they are and you can't unmake them just because you don't like what happened.

And anyways, I don't totally disagree with you about SMiLE and what it coulda been. I much prefer that it woulda been finished in 1966 or 1967. But it wasn't. I would change things in the new Star Wars. In fact, it probably woulda made a lot of sense and been nice if they at least used Lucas' framework for the sequels. But as I said, he sold it. And I don't wanna hear that "oh, he had to for this reason or that" cuz he didn't. He must have made the rationalization in his head that this was the best way forward. So nope, I don't feel for him at all, just as I have to say that as much as the Mike and Bruce show has kinda embarrassed me as a Beach Boys fan, I don't feel for Brian as much as I maybe would when he says he feels like he got fired. Because HE is the one that basically gave the group's name to Mike all those years ago. And he didn't do it during his Landy years or in any other compromised era. He did it around 1998 or whatever. And unfortunately for us, he made that deal and now he and Al and the fans have to deal with it.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 11, 2016, 07:58:31 PM
I realize some people really like BWPS and consider it the final word.

This is what I don't get. "Some people" consider BWPS the final word? It's Brian Wilson's final word on his music. Not yours. You have nothing to do with that music besides the fact that you are a listener. You can play around with it all you want but it's not your intellectual property. I guess you can choose to live in an alternate reality where Brian didn't issue BWPS or even his "second" final world, The SMiLE Sessions, but it's not reality. I suppose I could choose to live in an alternate reality where George W. Bush was never President, Dr. Dre released more albums and I got to see Michael Jackson perform live. But alas, things are what they are and you can't unmake them just because you don't like what happened.

Well, this is just where you and I differ. I subscribe to the death of the artist/author school of thought when it comes to media/artistic criticism. That means, once its out there, its for everyone to take what they want from it. This is especially so with SMiLE, with two separate projects worked on at completely different times, in different circumstances with different bands to perform in different contexts--celebratory live show vs psychedelic modular album. I dont get why that bothers you so much, you have BWPS as your final word to enjoy and I have my theories and pieces to play with to make what I consider to be my own. Its not even that I dont like what happened--its awesome Brian was able to finish it as it pleased him. Im happy a genuinely cool musician like Darian could help out and live the dream. And its great VDP came back and was able to see it through as well. The whole things like something out of a storybook and the perfect cap to Brian's career Id say. I just think the 60s album wouldve been much different--and I prefer it--so I think its worth trying to restore as faithfully as possible although admittedly a lot of speculation and even guesswork and opinion comes into play.

Anyway, this probably isnt the best thread to go on about this.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Jim V. on January 11, 2016, 08:14:38 PM
Well, this is just where you and I differ. I subscribe to the death of the artist/author school of thought when it comes to media/artistic criticism. That means, once its out there, its for everyone to take what they want from it.

Wait. So if someone decide that Pet Sounds would be better if they deleted all the tracks and instead had a 40 minute long "Trombone Dixie" that would be just as valid a representation of Pet Sounds as the masterpiece that Brian released in the 1960s?


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 11, 2016, 08:38:00 PM
Well, this is just where you and I differ. I subscribe to the death of the artist/author school of thought when it comes to media/artistic criticism. That means, once its out there, its for everyone to take what they want from it.

Wait. So if someone decide that Pet Sounds would be better if they deleted all the tracks and instead had a 40 minute long "Trombone Dixie" that would be just as valid a representation of Pet Sounds as the masterpiece that Brian released in the 1960s?

To that person, I suppose. Why would that bother you? Theyre free to listen to that and you can listen to Pet Sounds as you know it. I dont see the need to be so upset by it.

But I think SMiLE and other lost/unfinished albums are a special case. Typically death of the artist means that once something is released, their own analysis means nothing. Its up to everyone to take whatever meaning they want to. It usually doesnt mean "tear out a bunch of pages and write something new in" but in the case of something like SMiLE, where all the pieces are available to you, plenty of evidence of differences from how it eventually turned out, and even Mark and Alan talking about rolling your own...I think its a circumstance where its absolutely fine to do a fanmix. TCM releases old movies like Greed that were recut after the director finished it with still images and narration (since the original lost scenes are gone) to try to recreate what is believed the original wouldve been. Audiophiles Im sure remix tracks to better fit their tastes all the time--there are stereo mixes made of Beach Boys recordings for instance. And many, like myself, prefer listening to songs like California Girls without the lyrics. In the Pet Sounds box you get everything in pieces so that you can make the lyrics louder as opposed to the music or whatever else suits you. Fan games are made of old classics like Super Metroid and Super Mario World by hacking the originals code. Some of these are even better than the original games. In all cases, its not about supplanting the officially released, so much as celebrating it. You call it fan fiction...maybe it is. But so what? There's some good fan fiction out there too. Getting back to, y'know, STAR WARS I personally think the ideas fans were coming with before Episode 7 were a lot better than what we got. I also think this Darth Jar Jar theory, even if totally false, adds a lot of depth and intrigue into Episode 1 that wasnt there without it. Once again, I really dont see why such things should bother you so much. Enjoy the originally released stuff if thats what you want to do. And with that, I think this conversation is over. Either we agree or agree to disagree, but its not fair to all the other people here to derail this thread with a conversation that could easily continue on the main board. There's like 4 active SMiLE threads going now.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: China Pig on January 12, 2016, 07:59:01 AM
The thing which kinda almost maybe redeems 1 for me is the Darth Jar Jar theory. If you havent, look it up on Reddit and there are many Youtube videos as well. Basically the theory is Jar Jar was a Sith lord who conspired to lead the Jedi to Anakin. Im not gonna go into all the evidence, but there actually is a lot. If you read the original Reddit post and comments (which add things the original poster missed) it makes a lot of sense even tho Im sure it sounds like a lame joke to you now. The idea is, there was going to be a twist in 2 where Jar Jar reveals himself--akin to the big I am your Father reveal in 5. But the backlash against Jar Jar was SO great that either Lucas abandoned the idea for fear of alienating fans more, or else someone else FINALLY stepped in and said "No George, bad idea" (which shouldve happened about 100 times during Episode 1's production) because they feared having him be prominent in 2 again would kill box office returns since he was so despised. The actor who played Jar Jar has confirmed this theory on Twitter, fwiw. He also confirmed extensive rewrites to the later 2 prequels because of the backlash.
So it's no longer just an urban internet myth? The guy who voiced Jar Jar really has confirmed that Lucas planned to turn him evil for esp2 and 3?
Mind blown.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Paul J B on January 12, 2016, 08:02:00 AM
The funny thing is....I'm asking people what they thought and so far all three people I've spoken with that are fans and have seen it are under whelmed but say it's good. I'm also hearing the same line from people now and read it on the internet...."well it was more of a set up for the next two, so they should be better". That is crap! This one should have and could EASILY have been better. How about this Abrams and company....slowly reveal that factions of the Empire still exist and they are rebuilding and regrouping throughout the Galaxy and then bring the old and new characters together over a simple plot like, we need to do something about these remnants before it gets out of hand. That, instead of, the Empire never was defeated and is still here and now calls itself First Order but its exactly the same with a new Death Star and an evil hologram dictating to the new Darth what his bidding shall be, which is what we got. As one Mr. Landy says to Brian in L&M ......Seriously Man!

I need to find a Star Wars fan site form and vent.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: China Pig on January 12, 2016, 08:52:56 AM
The friends I went to see the film with aside, I have yet to talk to anyone in the 'real' world who doesn't consider this film to be really good.
As far as modern blockbusters go I found it to be stunningly average with most of it's main plotpoints just a blatant rip off of A New Hope. I fully expect the next installment to be called 'The First Order Strikes Back' and for it to open on Hoth.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on January 12, 2016, 02:17:28 PM
The funny thing is....I'm asking people what they thought and so far all three people I've spoken with that are fans and have seen it are under whelmed but say it's good. I'm also hearing the same line from people now and read it on the internet...."well it was more of a set up for the next two, so they should be better". That is crap! This one should have and could EASILY have been better. How about this Abrams and company....slowly reveal that factions of the Empire still exist and they are rebuilding and regrouping throughout the Galaxy and then bring the old and new characters together over a simple plot like, we need to do something about these remnants before it gets out of hand. That, instead of, the Empire never was defeated and is still here and now calls itself First Order but its exactly the same with a new Death Star and an evil hologram dictating to the new Darth what his bidding shall be, which is what we got. As one Mr. Landy says to Brian in L&M ......Seriously Man!

I need to find a Star Wars fan site form and vent.

It was definitely a missed opportunity to have some social commentary on current times by not having a decentralized enemy. Something like scattered pockets of resistance to the new Republic wouldve been a great way to tie fears of terrorism into the new Star Wars and really make it something relevant to the new generation. The Prequels, again for all their faults, did the same, with the masterminds manufacturing a war being references to the West since WWII especially Cheney and Bush with Iraq. Even if that wasnt planned to coincide it worked out really well. And the originals could perhaps be read as fear of big government like the Soviets expanding and taking over planets against their will. Some deleted dialog between Luke and Biggs has the latter discussing how the Empire collectivizes ownership of peoples lands and businesses, an obvious nod to Communism.

Even just the littlest touches couldve made a great impact. Ive heard someone say the scene between Kylo and Han couldve been so much more dramatic had his real name been Luke and not Ben. And if we arent told hes Hans son until that moment, and he doesnt take his mask off until then either. Imagine Han yelling "Luke!" and for a minute, we think that maybe Luke has fallen to the dark side and this has been him all along. But then the touching reveal he named his son after his best friend (seriously, why would they name him after Ben Kenobi?? Seems like Luke might, but not them). Finally, we see his face, and this persons idea was its all green and twisted like the Emperor's in Episode 6, and Han recoils in horror at the corruption the Dark Side has brought unto his son. Seriously, how much more dramatic and powerful would something like that have been? Instead, we already know hes Hans son and what he looks like, and most of us saw the death coming a mile away, so it has no power what so ever.

Im not saying this movie sucked because it didnt do things exactly as I want them to...but thats just a small example of how it misses so many opportunities. Just changing little things in a scene like that make it so much more powerful and wouldnt have been hard to do. By the same token, changing big things wouldve allowed for more interesting sociopolitical commentary instead of the obvious, forced, seen-it-a-million-times Nazi iconography to indicate who the bad guys are. Imagine how much more powerful itd be if the Republic starts sacrificing the liberties the Rebels fought so hard for in order to better protect against disorganized terrorist supporters of the old Empire, essentially becoming its own worst enemy. That couldve been a really powerful critique of the US right now and allowed for some dialog about the current state of the world thru art. But instead, its just the exact same narrative we already saw all over again, and the Republic failed because Han and Leia are shitty parents and Luke's a coward who gave up and let billions die on those planets and Han die too when he could easily be doing something to help. LAME.

Not saying they'd have to do this for the movie to be good...just give us something new.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Alex on January 13, 2016, 12:03:09 PM
The only thing I can see happening that allows for more consistent production of creative and experimental movies is the same thing that happened the last time: the collapse of the studios.

Or else another surprise success from a young independent hotshot, like with Bonnie and Clyde or Pulp Fiction.

Coincidentally, the sinking of the studios--at least one of them--may not be far off. Lucas and Spielberg have alluded to this. And it explains why 2 out of every 3 movies these days, or so it seems, is a safe marketable reboot or sequel of an established property. Most studios cant afford a big flop so theyre afraid to take risks. Ironically, if they followed my advice and just lay off the 250 million dollar shlock-fests with a 200 million dollar ad campaign they wouldnt need every picture to be a hit to stay afloat.

The real medium to follow these days is TV, not film. And again, this isnt me talking out of my ass. People in show business have been saying as much for a few years now. If you want to tell a great story with relative creative control and plenty of time to flesh out the plot and develop good characters--put it on TV, especially Netflix, HBO and AMC. Thats where the foreseeable future of motion pictures are. Ive enjoyed Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Community and others far more than ANY movie Ive seen in theaters the past 10~15 years, personally. The only films Ive really enjoyed in that time span, and enough to buy on DVD/bluray and watch again and again, are Quentin Tarantino and Chris Nolan's movies, along with the original Pirates of the Caribbean. I honestly cant think of anything else, tho admittedly there may be one or two others that arent coming to mind right now.

What about Judd Apatow, Seth Rogen, et. al.?


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Jim V. on January 13, 2016, 01:31:04 PM
The only thing I can see happening that allows for more consistent production of creative and experimental movies is the same thing that happened the last time: the collapse of the studios.

Or else another surprise success from a young independent hotshot, like with Bonnie and Clyde or Pulp Fiction.

Coincidentally, the sinking of the studios--at least one of them--may not be far off. Lucas and Spielberg have alluded to this. And it explains why 2 out of every 3 movies these days, or so it seems, is a safe marketable reboot or sequel of an established property. Most studios cant afford a big flop so theyre afraid to take risks. Ironically, if they followed my advice and just lay off the 250 million dollar shlock-fests with a 200 million dollar ad campaign they wouldnt need every picture to be a hit to stay afloat.

The real medium to follow these days is TV, not film. And again, this isnt me talking out of my ass. People in show business have been saying as much for a few years now. If you want to tell a great story with relative creative control and plenty of time to flesh out the plot and develop good characters--put it on TV, especially Netflix, HBO and AMC. Thats where the foreseeable future of motion pictures are. Ive enjoyed Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Community and others far more than ANY movie Ive seen in theaters the past 10~15 years, personally. The only films Ive really enjoyed in that time span, and enough to buy on DVD/bluray and watch again and again, are Quentin Tarantino and Chris Nolan's movies, along with the original Pirates of the Caribbean. I honestly cant think of anything else, tho admittedly there may be one or two others that arent coming to mind right now.

What about Judd Apatow, Seth Rogen, et. al.?

You really don't think Mujan would like those guys do you?  He hates that stuff mindless mainstream crap. He can only stand to listen to "California Girls" without those stupid trite lyrics. And Star Wars, trust me, he knows better.

Watch these clips, one from This is the End, and one from Family Guy. Of which I'm sure he hates both as stupid trite mainstream comedy that is crapped out for the masses. Anyways, watch, and then you'll understand him better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cugsup-Ylzg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxo0pSNYMXE



Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: Peter Reum on January 23, 2016, 08:37:30 PM
I loved the first trilogy, did not care for the second trilogy, and found this film a return to the quality of the first 3. I got a kick out of how they found the Millennium Falcon, the action scenes toward the end, and the preview as to where the second movie may go. It was tough to see Han buy the farm, but it did add some gravity to the end. That said, StarWars at it's best cannot touch the first six books about Dune by Frank Herbert.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: ZenobiaUnchained on February 01, 2016, 01:43:46 PM
It was ok. I saw it, was entertained but have no desire to see it again


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Post by: stack-o-tracks on February 02, 2016, 11:16:34 PM
I liked the prequels better. Absolutely mediocre film. Anybody who thinks otherwise is just caught up in the hype.

Rey, Finn, and Poe are great characters, but they're basically wasted on what turned out to be a complete retread of A New Hope. Future Jedi with no hope for the future living on a desert planet finds a droid with information to help the rebellion leaves said desert planet on the Millennium Falcon and ends up helping destroy this planet  destroying "spacecraft" that has some obvious flawed weak spot.


Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnn.


I get it, practical effects, Harrison Ford, etc, but no. The story did nothing to make the Star Wars universe a bigger place.

It's depressing that Jizzney completely ignored George Lucas' ideas for this new trilogy, because he always at least TRIED to make new stories. Can't say the same about Jar Jar Abrams and his emulation of the iconic films from decades past.


PS: sweetdudejim is a total fockin' tool.