The Smiley Smile Message Board

http://www.theaquarian.com/2015/11/18/rant-n-roll-brian-wilson-is-the-beach-boys-accept-no-substitute/ (http://www.theaquarian.com/2015/11/18/rant-n-roll-brian-wilson-is-the-beach-boys-accept-no-substitute/)

What an absolute tw*t of a journalist talking nonsense. Mike has an excellent touring band on the road and performs good shows. Brian's shows are probably better for nostalgic reasons with Al and Blondie being there, but Mikes are still good imo (attended both Brian's shows throughout the years, Mikes and the 50th anniversary 2012 reunion).

As I've often said, there are ways to thoughtfully (and more effectively) criticize Mike and/or his tour. But people writing stuff like that (which seems to be nothing more than a boring, rambling blog being allowed space on an actual magazine's website) need to realize that actually calling him "The Evil Beach Boy" (the author's capitalized emphasis, not mine) is the type of thing that will just fuel Mike's persecution complex.

It's a trap ;)

I will say that there's lots of button-pushing around here.
I don't absolve myself.

 ;D

Troll bait, and piss poor troll bait at that. I fart in his general direction.  ;D

Dang…  I bit!

The immortal Mike Greenblatt.  Never heard of him.

Wow - written by the same Greenblatt person who's Carl Wilson interview in the Aquarian from 32 years ago I recently quoted in another thread here...otherwise, I have absolutely no knowledge of him or the publication itself! Not being a New Jersey-ite and not having heard of The Aquarian prior to acquiring that copy of their paper in '83 for the express purpose of obtaining the Carl interview, I have no idea if this is a well-renowned rock publication or not, but am a bit surprised to see that it's still around! Pity the article is such a piece of tripe. But then, Greenblatt had the questionable taste to ask Carl about Manson in the '83 interview!

Whoring usually involves doing something you don't want to do, for money.









































Like writing articles for "the aquarian" 

Also piss poor writing - starts off saying how terrible it was that Brian was forced to carry on writing the girls in cars having fun in the sun stuff (he wasn't, and indeed, he didn't) but by the end such material is praiseworthy.

Any chance we can change the title on this thread? I agree with you 100% that what the writer of the article wrote is way beyond appropriate, so it irks me to see that anywhere, and especially when I come to our little home on the internet to celebrate The Beach Boys. I still think it's a fine to topic to discuss, but seeing that phrase as the first thing when I check in is a bummer.

Yes, please, it makes me feel uncomfortable too. The worst title since someone started a thread called "Brian Wilson is dead".

One letter would be enough: Mike's whole band, Mike's shore band... :hat

all in all, writer has the general idea.  Would just love  to see Mike go out on stage for solo concert vs Brian  and a solo show.  Comedy vs musical heaven.  Mr. Love won the lottery so many years ago..what a free ride.  Yes! Help Me I'm caught in the trap and can't (won"t) get out. 

Next time BW accepts an award, he should suddenly challenge Mike Love to get on stage and jam.

The guy is an uninformed loser.  He did not do his "due diligence" in reporting.  And he might be in an "elated state" or giddy, as one might be after seeing Brian round third, after this great film has been released, after having seen Brian fairly recently, I've seen, but this is just being a jerk. 

He is clueless about the setlist of the touring band and could have checked out what they have been playing for some time, deeper cuts as time goes on.  Mike Greenblatt gets a big red "D" on his report card from me.  He did a good job with Brian, but with the Touring Band, not so much. 

Classless loser.  And, I doubt Brian would like his cuz being called that name.  Blood is still thicker than water.   ;)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sy5An7nsOS4/UIWRG6wOSOI/AAAAAAAAAPY/pWWPny_pr20/s1600/imagesCAPEFR75.jpg)

Also it's a little awkward with my daughter always looking over my shoulder.

That would be funny.

Yes, that would be nice to change the thread title...

 :lol

 :lol

Glad to see the heading changed on this thread.  Wow was that insulting!!!  As for the article?  I ain't readin' it.  I know what I saw and heard in August and it was TOTALLY  outstanding...including Jeff.

Credit where credit is due.  Anything less would be dishonest and unworthy.

Thanks for the title change! Truly appreciated!

Yes indeed. It would be even more satisfying if everyone else were to change the title in their posts throughout the topic. But maybe that's too much to ask...   

Didn't realize I could do that. It's now done on mine

Thanks! Actually there are two more of yours on page one----when the time is right, of course. Let's see who else makes the change... 

ignore this. Sorry

sorry about that. Done.

 ;D

(http://jackcavanaugh.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83555153869e20120a55c162e970c-pi)

+

(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/creepypasta/images/e/ec/Broken_record2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120402003611)

 ;D

I honestly think everytime you type the words 'myKe luHv' your dementia advances a little more.

On this forum, "many" = roughly four.

I think you'll find that this gentleman is yawning on my behalf for another reason entirely.

 ;D

I care - opinion doesn't give you the right to insult people. In MY opinion you're just a troll. I was delighted the other day when I found a user calling out your silly comment on Youtube. I wasn't delighted to see you spew your childish taradiddle over there too.

Hence forth, I shall use this pungent phrase whenever possible in its proper context !

Question:    Who is your favourite Beach Boy
Brian Wilson    - 96 (61.9%)
Carl Wilson    - 19 (12.3%)
Dennis Wilson    - 20 (12.9%)
Al Jardine    - 10 (6.5%)
Mike Love    - 7 (4.5%)
Bruce Johnston    - 3 (1.9%)
Other    - 0 (0%)
   
Total Voters: 151

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,3637.0.html

Who said anything about "favouirite" ? The poster actively dislikes Mike, to a near pathological degree, thus in compliance with OSD's childish taradiddle that the troll bait accurately reflects "how many feel, both here...", my estimate of four-ish is entirely accurate, viz.

OSD, Smile Brian, your good self and... eh, make that three.  ;D

Lot of folk here don't like Mike to a lesser or greater degree, granted, but they're not, by and large, given to frothing at the mouth and going into fits at the mere mention of his name. Much as I do about that talentless twat who used to be in The Smiths, come to think of it...  :o

waiting for the Doe and Love show...hope it sells out. both play a mean chalkboard . 

Four.  :)

Wilsonart1, Don't feed the troll . >:D

Still waiting on an answer about the still touring videos....

Phew, that was close! ::)



Which would be...? The one I picked it out of the online dictionary for?

Every time I feel compelled to comment on his childish taradiddle, of course !  ;D

Every time Mike Love opens his mouth, it's childish taradiddle. :hat

 ;D

 ;D

But really OSD!!!  I mean what does this contribute to the conversation.  It's the same olde solid tin of sh*t every time.  I'd guess that at least 1/2 the posters here gather that you and Mike won't be exchanging xmas cards at ANY point...and that happy birthday 'calls' are off the table.  The other 1/2?  They don't care what you think...'cause you seldom add any meat to your bone of contention.  

 Mike does [and did] stuff that I get...and I like.   And he also does [and did] sh*t that I don't dig or condone and I think, unless I'm just out and out plastered, that I generally explain why I think the way I do about specific issues and matters at hand.

But this picking off Mike with an air-rifle at 50 paces every time someone dares 'speak' his name is just fucking boring, useless...and it's a real site killer...and still we HAVE to go there almost every gawd-dam day?

Please...wheel...and come again. :hat

The only thing OLDER than OSD around here is this on-going bull sh*t.  It's not Mike that it's reflecting poorly on.

Moderators???  Get to work.

Seconded. The lack of moderation was part of the reason I had enough of this board for quite a while.

 ;D

How many tickets for this next ride?  A few friends that played on this board game are now passed. It was a year of some additional Wilson music  and concerts.  Brian didn't make it to the State his mother was born in (MN) so no scratch was itched for me.  It's just prior to Thanksgiving let's  enjoy.  Turkey and Ham plus venison....I did shot a ( Doe).  Shouldn't of said that! 

Everytime you and/or OSD post an anti-Mike comment, a baby dolphin dies.

Or Mike Love loses a hair on his balding head.

When I was a moderator I took great pleasure in banning him the first time. Then along the way people complained enough and bullied the current moderators into rescinding the ban. A grave failure from where I sit. He has done nothing since he arrived except disrupt the board. He posts nothing of substance and for some reason has his own little band of cheerleaders. It's beyond pathetic.

How about putting it to a vote, mods?

Seem to recall there was a very vocal campaign to reinstate OSD. Hope you're all pleased with yourselves.

Just because a movement is popular doesn't mean it's a worthy movement.

:woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot

 ;D

Are you all calling to ban someone because he insulted a band member? Or did he do something more?

Emily, that's been pretty much it from that crowd....

Well, that seems a little overboard.

This thing?
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14706.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14706.0.html)

I counted two people asking for him back. Ironically, one of them disappeared after seemingly getting sick of all the mYke bashing (be careful what you wish for).  
No surprises for guessing who the other one was!

I've seen bowel movements that were more worthy then bringing OSD back.

Bowel movements at least purge one of sh*t. OSD just spews sh*t.

Don't give your two fans that much credit, skippy. I know their lips are practically attached to your ass, but let's be real here. :)

He's been banned before for disrupting EVERY thread he posts in. That's all he does. Every time. It's one thing to be critical of band members (see CenturyDeprived) but quite another to literally post the same "myKe luHv" gobbledegook over and over again for eternity. Where CD at least encourages discussion with his points, OSD just derails threads and adds nothing of value. It's called being a troll and trolls were never tolerated on here until recently.

What's hilarious is that one of the threads that was made (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14706.0.html) to bring OSD back was made by the self-admitted Mike apologist Pinder Goes To Kokomo.

And, the "vocal" campaign to reinstate him? Really? It was two threads, totaling barely a few pages of actual half-hearted (mostly comical) protests to bring back OSD, such as this:

(http://i.imgur.com/p7p9MFW.jpg)

OH THE HUMANITY! The bullying is just outrageous!! Oh wait, The Real Beach Boy, here in reality, Billy reinstated him during the Christmas season (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,15303.msg483919.html#msg483919) and didn't seem to harbor any resentment doing so. But ya know, let's leave that part out because it doesn't jive with the bullshit you want to spout.

IMO the only thing worse than OSD are the Brian apologists.

Oh, I didn't leave anything out. That's basically how it went down.

As I'm fairly ignorant on the subject, could you possibly define what a Brian apologist is?

There is nothing to sorry about being a fan of Brian Wilson.

Mike fans have to bully to justify their fandom of the asshat from kokomo.

He was banned once for making a personal attack on a member. He was banned another time for making a personal attack on a band member. He wasn't ever banned for the "Myke Luhv" related talk. So actually, he was never banned for disrupting every thread he posted in. Get your facts straight.

SB, to name an example. 

They won't because that is not the point of the personal attacks on OSD.

It begins...

I said nothing about being a fan of Brian.  ::)  I'm a big fan of Brian, he's my favorite singer/songwriter, but I don't try to spin everything he does in a positive light or do the opposite for Mike.

Spell it out man instead of the cryptic wannabe Riddler posts! ::)

(http://s3.postimg.org/hq5fvq10j/movie_044.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

 ;D

Just to be clear...I don't consider my initial post on 'this' to be a personal attack on OSD...although that LSD guy can go piss up a rope.  Mine was a request to rethink the ongoing approach and add something more meaningful and less repetitive to the converstation.  It was also a request for moderators to shut this kind of mindless twaddle OFF...going forward.   NO ban requested.  Clear?

It's Bor-friggin'-ing and...AGAIN...It's a site KILLER.  As for the Brian apologists remark...via cinci...Really?  That's just the same crap with extra words.  Read a book/catch a movie.

What is the same crap?

Just a newbie's opinion -
It seems that people here do sometimes throw out flames just to start a fire.
If a real discussion is developing to explore a topic - ie why did C50 end the way it did (though  unless something new comes out that seems to have been sufficiently covered), then sometimes toes will be stepped on and disagreements might ensue, which is inevitable. But this thread was kindling just waiting for a spark and was certainly never going to develop into an interesting discussion.
It seems like some people like to throw a spark and others pull out the bellows as soon as it's lit to blow it up to a bonfire.
Maybe everyone needs to step away and just let this thread die.

Brian vs Mike/Mike vs Brian.  Sonny vs Cassius/Cassius vs Sonny.  Except it's those who don't prefer Brian against those who don't prefer Mike.  It's endless.  It's mindless and it's meaningless if we're just going to call each other names...if we're just going to insinuate that the ONLY agenda here is to further one over the other just for the heck of it.

Brianistas?  Brian apologists?  Brian's handlers?  Then there's the constant dumping of manure on Mike, the kidnapping of any and ALL posts which discuus him...or Bruce...and now Jeff too?

We're ALL here because of the Beach Boys.  NO KUMBAYA required but this is just weak sh*t.  I was under the impression that most of us are fucking grown-ups...not a bunch of snotty nosed, schoolyard wanna-be-bullies.

Apologists?  OK.  I apologise for you and your negativity toward your fellow members at this message board and web-site.

Oh...there goes the bell.  Let's line up for class.
----------------------------------------------

Can't pull away Emily.  This has gone on and on and on for over 1/2 a year [this time around...I gather]  It HAS to stop or the site will suffer what MIGHT turn out to be irreparable damage.  THAT would not be a good thing.

"Irrepairable damage"? Such as? Ever open the OP-Ed pager of a newspaper or go on line and read explosive OPINIONS of this, that or the other thing. Expressing OPINIONS about a deservedly maligned bandmember is nowhere close to that.  And remember, Lee, I didn't start this thread, nor did I insult any poster except TRBB who like myKe luHv, has it more than coming.

I'm just going to let this one go as it appears you're going on one of your rants again.  You're saying I'm posting crap... yet you're agreeing with me.  As far as irreparable damage, that has already happened.  There are a lot of great people that stay away from this forum because of how dysfunctional it is.

Yes I do and did OSD.  But it ain't the same people writing the same tired old 'letter' every freaking day.  In fact MANY of the letters make some kind a valid point.  That's the POINT.  There has to be a point.  And hopefully a new one the next time around.  I know you're not a dummy.  I know you have positive things to add regarding what it is you LIKE about the group.  Why not send one of THOSE letters to the editor for evey misspelling of Mike's name you 'mail in'.

It's reached the point where there's less and less reason to bother reading here anymore.  This site is becoming a shadow of its former self.  The serious folks are disappearing and the clowns are beginning to put on their make-up in every blinkin' room.
--------------------------------

Cinci...the place needs same ranting and raving or it's gonna sink...like a stone...glug.  We gotta get back on track...'cause this just sucks.  And that's ALL I've got to say.

You are not expressing an opinion, you're expressing an obsession. You never ever add something worthwhile to any discussion. All you ever do is put down Mike and people who dare to say something in his favor. You are nothing but a troll, a very childish one at that, bringing down the quality and respectability of this board. You should be banned. Why the mods don't do that is beyond me. I have an idea, but stating openly it may get ME banned.

Is it not bizarre that you refrain from voicing your opinion for fear of ban, yet others can spew their infantile bile ad nauseum with (apparently) complete impunity ? That's got to be wrong.

Don't like being called out on your sh*t, do you? You're pathetic. See, it's one thing to have an opinion. You do nothing but disrupt the board with your childish psychobabble.

You couldn't insult a two-celled amoeba with your third-rate playground banter. Your verbal excrement on here is a mere annoyance and one that should have sent you packing a long time ago.

I'm not innocent of this idiocy myself, of course...and yet I know the difference between a legitimate discussion and a load of bollocks. You are a troll and the reason you're still allowed on here is beyond my comprehension.

Micha, you should express your opinion. If you get banned for it, that'll tell everyone here all they need to know about the current management.

Agreed, he has to be careful.  I've been banned for what comes down to disagreeing with a mod.  Crazy stuff that only happens on this forum.

Ok, now I'm really getting worried. Looks like I'll be getting 4 less X-mas cards this year.  :'(

A shameful state of affairs. Happily there are still a lot of great people who continue to post here come hell or high water. May their wisdom and tenacity help keep the trolls and snarks at bay and encourage the absentees back to the fold...       

You shouldn't have to be worried over questioning or disagreeing with a moderator. And banning people for disagreeing with a moderator is beyond the pale.

That is not what happened, this whole thread is a setup to get people who agree with Mike Love's online PR campaign in charge on SS.

In other news, aliens control the government.

You REALLY believe that, dude? I'd like to hope you're smarter than that. Seriously. I do.

All I can say is this nasty drama always seems to follow one "legendary board historian" around wherever he posts. Also with plenty of rude insults over trival facts.

So AGD and company are involved in a plot to enact a coup d'board and turn the Smiley Smile Message Board into a fascist dictatorship of Love?

OK, that's enough. I'm being accused of being in the pay of Mike Love. Prove it, or shut the f*** up. Mods, that's libel. You going to ignore this too ?

 ;D

Awwww, how cute of you to edit the posts so quickly. I hope this puts the fucking retarded notion of board members being in any of the band members' pockets to sleep once and for all.

Where is anyone saying you're being paid? I'm losing track of insinuations here or perhaps reading this charming thread wrong.

In response to OSD's rapidly removed original post stating that accepting freebies equates with me being on the payroll...

Have I been offered comps and BSPs by Mike's people ? Yes.

Did I accept ? Yes: I'm not entirely stupid.

Oh, and... applying this impeccable logic, I've been on Brian's payroll since the summer of 2002.  ;D

Post #104, which originally read something along the lines of "yes, they're being paid under the table". TRBB can confirm. My post at 8.48, OSD's edit at 9.06. Not an opinion or an insinuation but a flat-out statement. That it was so rapidly removed tells you that he not only realised it was indeed libellous but is also a craven coward without the balls to stand behind his claims.

I have OSD's original pre-edited post screenshotted.

Care to share, with the board and the mods ?  ::)

The thread was started with a link from an article with a highly inappropriate (by the author) and inaccurate comment. 

Online PR campaign?  Seriously. 

Anyone who believes that is in dire need of immediate psychiatric help. Seriously. We got the dude to write the article the way it was so we could start this thread ?  That's rampant insanity and as one who's seen the inside of a fool farm, I speak with no little experience.

What is the deal with the still touring trailers?

Here's the original post, at the top:

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12289499_10156216803915510_424997811717505705_n.jpg?oh=bb82f25650568e5deeb06280405619ab&oe=56AD24C1)

Nice edit job. ::)

Thanks to TRBB for sending me that.  :)

Nobody should have to justify being Brian Wilson and/or Beach Boys fans on this forum, to you or anyone else.

They're not fans: they contribute nothing to this forum, just dissent and spite and, as others in this thread have noted, the mods tacitly condone it by their inaction.

Well if that wasn't a piece of unfortunate timing, l don't know what is...  ;D

Is this board even being moderated anymore? With all the trollish BS permitted it certain doesn't appear to be.

I said this a few days ago and I'll say it again -- Moderators please wake up and get rid the those responsible for continually posting childish trollish bullshit.

As is very evident from recent comments, many of us are reaching the breaking point wading through this crap. The SS board and the quality of discussion contained therein is being seriously impaired due to the lack of competent moderation.

 

AGD and I differ on many things, but I agree with him that the recent state of this board leaves something to be desired. I respect GF and Billy greatly, and generally take a dim view of aggressive moderation.

But opinions are made to be changed ...

Seconding Wirestone.
This is my first post here in two and a half years. I don't expect to make another any time soon. I have far more respect for guitarfool and Billy as moderators than I do some of the other mods the board has had in the past, but they haven't been able to stop this board descending into the worst kind of cesspit.
I still check here every day, because it's the first place to get any kind of news, but I feel disgusted every time I do. And while OSD and SmileBrian are far from the *only* reason for that, they're by far the most obvious.
I have never, *NEVER*, seen a single post from OSD that wasn't either abusing other board members or posting childish insults about Mike and Bruce. Not once, and I've been reading this board for about six years. Mike's done *plenty* worth criticising, but I can't for the life of me imagine what could make someone be so completely consumed with hatred for someone whose greatest "crime" is singing a bit nasal (OK, he made Looking Back With Love, that was thirty-four years ago, he's paid his debt to society...).
I'm not an "important" board member. No-one really cares if I post here or not. But I've spoken to a number of more important people about this place -- people who have made important contributions -- and they feel the same way. And if I've been driven off because this place is so horrible, so will other people have been.
This used to be the single best place on the Internet to discuss the Beach Boys. I suspect that's been lost permanently, thanks to the behaviour of a number of people. But there's not even a *chance* to make it worthwhile again while OSD and SmileBrian are allowed to go around just... just *smearing sh*t* all over every single thread.
Ban them.

OSD was (bafflingly) granted a second chance and has abused it.

Smile Brian owes it to whoever paid for his education to know better.

Ban them.

It's obvious the Andy posse is all joining in to bash SB & OSD. Fact is, they weren't the ones to start personally insulting other board members. Micha was. Then Mike's  Beard joined in,  followed by andy and the RBB. And your surprised that they fight back when attacked?

You guys all get your panties in a twist when your idol is slighted. I understand your unhappiness with it but personal attacks make you no better.

They all contribute, or have, to the board. OSD and his minon do not, and people have had enough.

As for insulting other board members... they do that with every post.

Me too.


I agree.


I can't remember any sensible post from OSD either.



Undoubtedly!



Maybe that's all they have in life?



This is the only thing in your post I disagree with - causing Desper to resign as engineer is the worst that I know about for sure.


I appreciate every sensible person to post here. :love

You're all overreacting.
This is like watching two kids have the "Don't touch me!" <<tiny poke>> "Mom! She touched me!!!" fight.
The poker is wrong but so's the one making an international incident out of it. 
Just relax. Geez.

You've been here only for three months now I believe. Wait another year or so and you might feel different about it.

Where are the mods these days? A few wise words from them would be most welcome at this stage in the proceedings.

I expect that's true, but my analogy still holds: those two siblings have been together bickering so much that they've lost all capacity to behave reasonably toward each other and the minute one does something annoying, the other trips out. An outsider can see that the argument is not really about what happened at that moment, it's about a built-up history. And the best resolution is to take a break from each other.

In a year, I may too have lost my capacity to behave reasonably on SmileySmile.net (certainly I have family members who can set me off as easily as OSD sets people off here), but that doesn't mean I'd be right to be set off.

The speed with which this escalated to people calling each other pathetic, demented , trolls, etc. culminating in AGD being called a liar, which without evidence (which I'm confident doesn't exist) is really inappropriate, is crazy.

If there's a poster that is annoying, repetitive, infantile, whatever, are there not better ways to handle it?

I understand you're frustrated, but that's why I said three pages ago that people need to just walk away from this thread. It's just escalating and getting uglier and uglier.

Your point may be that as a new person, I should shut up. And you know, I've got a voice in my head telling me the same thing because I expect the outcome of chiming in will be that people will become furious with me as well, but I hope maybe someone will read my post and respond by taking a deep breath and trying to chill.

I agree.

Emily, you're making the basic error that OSD and his lackeys are reasonable people who will see the error of their ways. They're not, and this will never happen. More to the point, when I'm accused of altering someone elses post, l don't smile sweetly and turn the other cheek. I'm waiting to see the mod's response to that.

I do think it was very wrong to accuse you of that. I hope that you know that in my posts I've intended no disrespect to you.

No, not at all. Your posts are not in the least annoying. To the contrary, they are quite sensible and very welcome. Just in this one case, your proposed strategy has already been proven to be ineffective to these guys. They are not accessible to reason.



Thing is... the problems are not just in this one thread. They exist in every single thread that somehow mentions Mike.

I think the mods have gone home. To be fair, it's a tough job they do for free. Let's go get ourselves a new message board.

:) well thank you for not being furious with me!

Exactly! I don't bother opening some threads anymore based on the title cause I know it will be full of the same tiresome old rubbish. This nonsense is really bringing the board down.

What time is AGD being appointed head moderator. ::)

Three months? Try flipping 19 years! I started posting on the Cabinessence board in '96, so I've seen sh*t go down. This isn't actually the worst I've seen (that would be the massive cluster that birthed this board), but it's by far the most banal and irritating.

I think for sheer sustained violence, the death agony of the much lamented Smile Shop holds the palm... but as Clay rightly points out, this may be the first forum to die of sheer idiotic banality.

Hm... I've been on the Smile Shop board, but I don't remember sustained violence, only a slow fading away. Was I somewhere else at that particular time or have I suppressed my memory of it?

The board is dying a death due to AGD's behind the scenes maneuvering. Sending tons and tons of PMs to maintain his control and push his agenda. Strange how he is obsessed with posts who have no ill-will against him, just don't like Mike Love.

I'd missed recent posts in this thread, partly cos I know that any thread with the name "Mike" will soon be derailed by trolls and their pets.

Just like to add my voice to those already asking for moderation and the banning of OSD and his disciple. That said, it doesn't seem that many voices are being heard right now…

Sums up the agdster's agenda quite well indeed. Have you ever gone to such lengths to get someone banned? I know I haven't. The dohster wants complete control here, which reminds me of myKe luHv kicking Brian Wilson and Al Jardine out of the Beach Boys after C50. Oh yeah, there's a definite similarity and agenda going on here. 

No, dear, some posters are sick and tired of nearly single thread being hijacked in a "Hate Mike" context.  

Whose agenda?  That is paranoia.

Just say you don't like Mike but support your reason, (with your own researched reasons and not from someone else) instead of a one-liner of b.s.  It saves time.  

Don't give Andrew that much credit for controlling this board. I don't think he does.  He is a published author who has done research that I personally respect. We don't see eye-to-eye all the time, but can disagree without this infantile nonsense but I do respect his scholarship.  Apparently you don't.  Just say so without the continuous personal attacks.  

You don't have to believe one word Andrew has published, and that is your choice, but this conspiracy theory is ridiculous.  

Maybe posting in threads that don't concern Mike might be a good start?  The mods should not have to be hall monitors or R.A's.

And, I like to remember that I am a guest on someone else's forum.

Every beach boys forum community that has collapsed has one common denominator: Andy Doe.

I understand that some fans don't much care of Mike Love.  I'm not even a huge fan of him as a person. 

But to continually bash him for no reason whenever his name comes up is just a waste of time. 

I agree with filledeplage.  Every single thread lately, whether it's a post of Mike's new Christmas single, something about the current touring band, an interview with Mike, or anything that has to do with the C50 gets derailed. 

It's old and tired. 

I can't even imagine with this message board will look like after Mike's book is released. 

No, it is the infantile behavior of a few that has annoyed many.  


Andrew Doe?  Seriously.  Someone I doubt you ever met.  

:lol

The "Andy posse?" How's that tinfoil hat on your head? Hopefully it isn't too tight; it might cut off whatever circulation that still goes to your brain. The "Andy posse." That has got to be one of the damnedest strawmen I've ever seen. I have no personal issue with SB; he and I are actually pretty cool with each other. No one is going after OSD because he's insulting "our idol;" he's being made an example of. There's a big difference. He's no innocent victim.

I) I'm not one to post a lot, but I do enjoy reading other people's thoughts.
II) This is made impossible here by people who post many times a day but seem to have nothing to contribute.
III) The few other messageboards I frequent are nothing like this mainly due to strong moderators.
IV) I end up only reading posts by a few people (c-man, Desper, Ian, AGD, Totten & Linett when they show up...)
----a) Also posts by other long-timers who I remember from other places (Cam Mott, that random mix of characters that Dauber uses...)
V) I'm sure I'm missing many thoughtful & intelligent posts from others but it's not worth grinding through the chaff.
VI) All I want is a place where reasonable people can exchange their opinions, thoughts, ideas, discoveries, etc. Can someone point me to such a place?

That's pretty rich coming from someone with a PROVEN history of arrogance and maliciousness toward posters who don't buy into your warped train of thought.

 :rock    Andy posse?  :lol :lol :lol :lol

We get it, you don't like Mike. Fine, thing is we heard you the first 500 FUCKING TIMES.

I, too, was a member of the old Smile Shop board, and drifted here when that one imploded.  I was never a frequent poster, but I used to post more often than I do now.  I still check here pretty much every day to see if I can learn something, but it's getting difficult to learn anything here anymore.  This board used to have a lot of excellent posters that do not post here anymore, and it makes me very sad to see this board going down the toilet.  I'm 59 years old.  I don't need this infantile, schoolyard bullshit.  How old are some of these posters that only post insults, against the band members of one of my favorite bands, and worse yet, against each other? 

I have been accused, quite seriously in a PM, of being AGD and posting as LostArt, simply because I 'dared' to post that I agreed with Andrew on some subject that I can't even remember, and because Andrew and I are roughly the same age.  Never mind the fact that we live in different countries, separated by the Atlantic ocean.  How crazy is that?  People are talking about conspiracy theories and such.  Unbelievable. 

I am all in favor of free speech, so I cannot ask for anyone to be banned from posting here, but please, for the sake of this community, for the sake of all that come here as fans of The Beach Boys, please stop this childish behavior.  Post your thoughts, by all means, but have something to say, and back it up with whatever facts you may have.  Stop insulting each other like 7 year old schoolyard bullies, and stop insulting members of the band THAT WE ARE ALL HERE TO TALK ABOUT. 

Meh.  This post probably won't change anyone's behavior, but I feel better getting it off my chest, so it's all good.

Good Vibrations, indeed.  Hmmm?

Amen.

+1

The anti-Mike obsession is tedious enough, but when this obsessive dislike is expressed without cleverness, without variation, without humor -- it becomes unbearable.

Kind of like listening to Donald Trump.

Trump's at least mildly entertaining. (That is not an endorsement of what he says)

Should the mods be watching, I think we have a consensus. The status quo cannot be allowed to continue if this forum is to survive in any meaningful form. There are also posters who should be suspended for their own good, judging by posts in this thread. At least one has gone completely over the edge in his accusations.

Problem is, some aren't here to talk about the band. Some are here to insult certain members of the band and to be able to act like 7 year old school bullies which they can't in real life.

OSD is in his late 60s. Just sayin'...

+1

Here are a few scenarios to consider, please add your opinions or overall thoughts on these and discuss.

1. Should a poster be given a ban, or is it a ban-able offense if a board member sends an unsolicited private message to another board member which contains profanity, something the recipient finds insulting bordering on a personal attack, or anything that would be considered offensive or inappropriate directed at that board member?

2. Should members of the forum be allowed to engage in intimidation or outright bullying tactics in order to get people whose posts or words they don't like to either leave or get kicked off the forum? If this is done, should it be considered a ban-able offense?

3. Should all criticisms posted against any band members or related individuals be considered a ban-able offense, and how should they be weighed and who determines what is offensive and what isn't?

4. Should groups of board members have the ability to ask for another member to be removed from the forum if they don't like that person's posts, or the content and tone of those posts, or if someone thinks that person is trolling the board? If so, on whose standards would the definition of trolling be applied when making those decisions? Example, if multiple board members consider and name another member as a troll based on their posts, whose burden would it become to prove that case, and on whose standards would "trolling" be defined?

5. Does the board community wish this forum to remain an open discussion forum, or should more power be given to certain members to censor and remove individual posts? And on whose standards would that censorship be applied?

Here's another one;
6. Should a forum member who was banned outright before for calling a band member's wife and daughter 'whores' and then allowed back with explicit instructions to lay off personally insulting said bandmember, which he has totally ignored to the point of threadcrapping the entire forum be allowed to remain a member?

GF,

Speaking strictly from my experiences, I'd like to be able to discuss all things Beach Boys including

- New material from any member of The Beach Boys - past or present, including Brian, Mike, Al, Bruce, Carl, Dennis, Blondie, Ricky
- Any tour dates or concerts by Brian or The Beach Boys
- Any new interviews with current or former members of the group
- Any books written about or by The Beach Boys

And I'd like to be able to read actual opinions on these topics, and be able to discuss these opinions with other fans without having the threads derailed by unsolicited hatred toward former or current members of The Beach Boys.  

It's one thing to have open discussion and even the occasional jab but when said behavior reaches the level it has then something may have to give. The moderators have always used best judgment for better or worse. There's no reason why that should change; but when a single poster derails EVERY thread he or she posts in a red flag should go up. Remember nobody? Kirkmc? thomasogg? Regularly shat on every thread they posted in. There were also calls to remove them. The moderators eventually had to act because it was getting ridiculous. No one is saying there should be a supercommittee of special board members to be the thought police around here, but when the overall health of the board is at stake, the less desirable elements have to be removed. Any good community does this in real life; it must be the same here.

1. Yes

2. No, it shouldn't be allowed - so yes, it should be a ban-able offense

3. No - and that should be the job of the moderators

4. Sure - but ultimately the moderators should be the judge of whether the individual poster that the group wants banned should actually be banned

5. Yes, it should be an open discussion, but more power should be given to certain members, and already has - those members with the power are the moderators


This is such a strange website. So much hostility, anger, intolerance... this thread is a prime example of that. We're all here because at the end of the day we're all Beach Boys fans. Guess what? One Mr. David Marks recently had quite a health scare, and inevitably, members of the band will pass away sooner or later. What exactly is it going to take to end all this fighting? The passing of Mike Love? The passing of Brian Wilson?

There is a lot of hatred on this website, and the hatred originates with certain posters. Ban them. Hell, you guys can make me the moderator, I'll get the job done. I've seen posters banned for some fairly head-scratching things, and I wouldn't be surprised if my post right here gets my banned. At this point I don't even care.

 :-[

Why would your post get you banned?

Spot on. I think the overwhelming majority of folks on this board can engage in respectful debate. There is a small handful of posters that only troll. If the moderators are having a hard time figuring out trolling behavior, I think it is best to paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it."

I would not advocate for an outright ban of any member, currently. I do think warnings should be issued, if they haven't already. Followed by suspensions/bans if the trolling behavior persists.

AGD vs. OSD in the Octagon at UFC 200. Dana White would make millions.

GF - I generally don't split posts but since it is a numbered inquiry, it seemed best to address each question separately.

You mods do a great job.  Some, here, would try the patience of Job.  Thanks for the time you dedicate to this board.  I waited a long time to discuss BB music.  It would be a shame to lose this forum.  ;)

My two cents, and worth exactly that...


Define "unsolicited": a response to an attack on-forum is hardly unsolicited. "You're a complete f*ckwit" coming out of the blue is. Not black & white. One posters profanity is another's common parlance, as is what may be considered offensive. Guidelines and if necessary, rules, should be established.


That's for the mods to decide. That's why they're mods. Again, bullying to one poster would be banter to another. 50,000 shades of gray.


No, not all criticism: reasonable and reasoned criticism is the lifeblood of fora such as this. Would you ban someone for saying "Brian sang off-key" ? Relentless and incontinent criticism of someone is a different matter entirely (but hey, I would say that, wouldn't I ?). What's offensive and what's not should be obvious to anyone with a fair, balanced outlook. Again, if not, that's what mods are for. To moderate.


Yes, if there's a groundswell of discontent (as in this thread). Definition of trolling ? This from Wikipedia: "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement." Emphasis mine. Relating to this thread, it seems there's a general consensus on how to define trolling. It's here, I don't need to underscore it.


There are already "certain members" who can "censor and remove individual posts". They're called mods. Can't speak for anyone else, but I want this board to remain an open discussion forum. However, for this to be so, measures  have to be taken to nullify those who abuse their right of reply by, frankly, trolling (see above) and make this forum a less toxic environment than it currently is.

In one all-embracing response to all your points - that's what moderators should be doing, but of late have not. That's not a criticism, that's a simple fact. For whatever reason (and I'm aware some mods have had RL problems to address), the level of moderation here has recently declined to next to nothing, with the result that disruptive elements have had a field day. Speaking personally, I've been accused of being on Mike's payroll, of causing the downfall of every defunct BB forum since time began and of being able to somehow manipulate this board behind the scenes (in effect, of pulling the mods strings for my own ends, and if I were a mod I'd be deeply insulted at any such insinuation). The latter two claims are so laughable as to be dismissed as the ravings of an unhinged mind. Oh, and of editing someone else's post to my own ends. Equally laughable, equally unhinged.

I remember what this board once was. It could be like that again, but not unless some draconian measures are implemented.

Getting back to the origination of this thread (ahem...Mike Love's Whore Band), what would be the reaction here if the writer of said hit piece posted verbatim upon this board? No doubt, those of you who rally to Mike's side would decry such vitriol and dare say - declare, 'why are you here? do you even LIKE the Beach Boys? What a troll!'

The point that I'm making is that anti-Mike (or grudging mistrust) exists out there. Hoping and wishing that it would go away is fanciful and ultimately pointless. It's a historical part of the mosaic of Beach Boys nation. There's no need for widespread ban-hammers. We have met the enemy...and it is US!

The point we're making is, the problem we have isn't with the dislike, but rather with the tedious form of expression of that dislike a handful have chosen to adopt.

Mike Love has his faults, so I can see why people like much care for him. 

But, when people hijack threads, either about a new Mike Love song, or a recent Mike and Bruce Beach Boys concert, with stuff like "Myke is such a ******," that's when it gets ridiculous. 

The tedious will become nuclear when the book comes out next summer. Think of it as piling on; I will admit here that it's probably impossible to have a sober, unblinking conversation about Mike without it descending into hostility. That's just the natural order of things. And by the way - it all starts with Mike, who's checkered behavior over the years has brought a lot of it upon himself.

I'm afraid you can't have a dispassionate discussion about anything related to Mike Love. No can do. Never happen. He's used up his sympathy currency as far as I'm concerned.

I won't disagree that the problems with Mike Love, by and large, start and end with Mike Love. 

But I don't think it's impossible to have a discussion about a concert by the current Beach Boys or a new Mike Love song without it devolving into a bucket of bile. 

I don't mind bile. I've contributed at times.

But at least make it interesting.

You mean like the Mike Love caption thread?

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,16356.0.html

Many of these are quite funny.  And they're in a thread where they belong. 

Guitarfool, for me there are two main issues here:

1. Incessant idiotic posts from certain members that are easily defined as trolling. The Wikipedia definition that was previously posted explains it perfectly: In Internet slang, a troll  is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement.

2. The health and legitimacy of the Smiley Smile message board. This has been and can be a wonderful forum for discussion, but there are many who have given up on this board, either completely or partially, as a result of the immature trollish behavior that is currently tolerated. This kind of nonsense in an elementary school setting is cause for reprimand followed by removal if the behavior continues. In a university setting anyone continually making immature comments that contribute nothing to the discussion would be summarily kicked out of class, given an F, and told never to return.

When you encounter an uprising of discontent concerning continuous trollish posts from certain members, it time for action.

Humor is absolutely fine on this board, and the Mike Love caption thread contains some incredibly funny stuff.

My problem is with posters who continually pollute this board with childish crap. I see that the biggest offender has gone back and replaced all his previous comments in this thread with a grin ( ;D). That tells me he knows he's been out of line. IMO there is no place on this board for those who insist on never-ending trollish posts that contribute nothing to the discussion.

Well put.

GF, with all due respect, I'm not sure that asking the board's populace what should be done is the right approach. While I don't like the idea of a lynch mob forming on the board, neither do I want to see the development of a form of "moderation by committee" (no matter how democratic it might feel).

There's already a consensus for action, if that's the form of validation you're seeking, and the lack of action to date is only fuelling the swelling mob mentality.

The final decision - and action - whether individually or together, has to be taken by (a) mod(s).

I don't know if we can reduce the problem to any particular poster or posters. The issue comes down to atmosphere and history. And part of me wonders if both are too compromised at this point to repair.

I see this assertion - that "people" consistently and frequently hijack threads, disrupt conversations, etc. with irrelevant, repetitive, unconstructive anti-Mike Love bombs - frequently, and I don't think it's untrue in a general way.
The problem is that I don't think that happened in this thread. This thread is a big Mike Love bomb from the OP. If there's anywhere to express your anti-Mike Lovitude, I'd think this thread would be the appropriate place to do it. And the post that set this firestorm off was not insulting to any other member.

So I think OSD did something that's fine in the context of this thread, then faced personal attacks and it escalated.
I understand, again, the general frustration with people throwing in negative comments out of the blue, but you need a better instance than this one to call for banning on.
On this thread, there are lots of posts that may be considered bannable on both "sides", but I shouldn't think OSD's original post is one of them.

Oh boo-hoo, buckle my shoe...some of you are really getting your panties in a twist over this stuff.

It's like a political thread. I'm not a tea party guy, and when I see a poster who espouses that merda, I scan past to the next. No one is so incensed to completely avoid the topic - they just scan to the next comment. If certain ahem, insiders (to use an AGD term) are so thin skinned to take offense, then they need to get over themselves.

Again, if we're talking studio equipment, then we'll have a wide ranging technical exchange of knowledge and no one will be offended. But if we discuss Mike and all things M&B, there's guaranteed to be some grousers in the bunch. As well there should be. Any reaction towards those grousers is group think, pure and simple.

To the last point,  sometimes an upswelling might just be the villagers with torches calling for the burning of a witch, so if I were a moderator I'd be cautious about following the mob.

DD,

I think you're missing the point.  It's one thing to have grousers as you put it, who are going to put in their opinions.  

But the issues being addressed are trolls who disrupt threads without adding anything whatsoever to the conversion.

You're right, Emily, but lately, the issue has occurred in just about every thread that has anything to do with Mike. 

I must admit that OSD makes me laugh. He's like the drunk uncle at the Thanksgiving table. He may not fit the narrative, but ah...pass the green beans please...

I do think that a clearer, written policy on some of these matters would improve the moderators' job a bit.

I should think that the moderators should use their judgement to apply the reasonable person standard  to the offense. If a reasonable person would find it an offensive, inappropriate attack, I think warnings should ensue and if repeated enough, a ban. Though I think bans should require a two-mod consensus.

No. Yes, after warnings. Again, I think applying the reasonable person standard and getting a two-mod consensus before banning would be good.

No. I think criticizing band members should be allowed. I think spewing hate should not. Context should be considered. Showing up on a thread about tape splicing and announcing that band member "Y" was a big jerk when he said something against band member "X" is purely inflammatory. Showing up on a thread that originated with an article spewing anti-band member hate and agreeing with the article is not.
Again, reasonable person standard should be applied in separating "criticizing" from "spewing hate". I think using inflammatory words like "whore", "c**t, etc. is hateful. I think attacks on bandmembers' families, unless one is criticizing a particular (eta: "publicly known") action by those family members, would normally be out-of-bounds. I think persistent nasty comments about weight or baldness might cross the line. I think someone saying that they think a band member has behaved in a despicable way, or that a band member's performance is bad, or even that a band member's despicable behavior has been consistent enough that the poster considers the band member to actually be despicable (much as such a statement might upset other posters) should be allowed, given that it's reasonably pertinent to the thread.
Eta: by "family members" in this section, I don't mean Murry, Stan and Steve Love or other family members who have been involved with the band in a professional way. I think they should be open to criticism as much as any band member. By "family members" I meant to indicate individuals who have private relationships with band members but are not professionally involved, say Al Jardine's wife. To start dragging her through the mud would be really inappropriate as her relationship with the band (as far as I know) is purely through a private relationship with Al.

Yes, they should be able to ask, but I don't think it's incumbent upon the moderators to fulfill the asker's request.
For the mods, I think applying a reasonable person standard and getting a two-mod consensus for banning would be appropriate.

I prefer open.

I get that. I just think the point would be made better in one of those threads.

Hm.. from a rhetoric/semantic point of view, that's badly worded. Essentially you're saying criticism is not factual. Other than that, thanks for looking up the definition of trolling, which IMHO fits to two posters.



You nailed it there. That is exactly what happens, that is exactly what I find so offensive. I myself criticise quite a few actions of Mike's, but everybody's free to disagree with my criticism. I also criticise actions of Brian's, but not to elevate Mike.

I have no objection to criticism of Mike, or any other of the Beach Boys. What is dispiriting is the repetitious and banal nature of some of the anti-Mike posts. Basically saying, "Mike is a d*ck" over and over, thread after thread, off-topic or not.

Here's a thought : why don't the Mike haters put whatever variant of "I hate Mike" they want in their sigs. That way, assuming they have anything on-topic to say in a particular thread, they can say their piece and still get in their anti-Mike knocks in the fine print.

:) not a bad suggestion.

I find your assumption that they have anything on-topic to contribute... amusing.  :)

Just relax a bit, you are too damn obsessed with what other people post. You are not a moderator....

It is a reasonable compromise though isn't it?  That way threads don't get derailed and the board has a chance to save itself from the free-fall it's currently plummeting through.

Quite a lot to address...bear with me while I try to respond to everything.


It's not the insult of bandmembers that is the problem, it's when it goes to the families that I have a personal issue with, especially where offspring is concerned. There are certain people in the BB universe that I am not the fondest of, but I would *never* go after their kids. That starts up again, then yeah, he's banned. Same for anybody.

As far as who is getting banned, or not banned....that's entirely up to us mods. And as of right now, nobody is getting banned. If we see more garbage like there have been over the past eight (!) pages, well, then that will change.

8 pages?  Try 8 months.

I think one of the features I wish we did have was an ignore button. So many of the problems on this board could be solved by that. Unfortunately, I have no idea on how to add it. If a certain post is considered annoying, just ignore it. Being annoying isn't ban-worthy. When it comes to trolling, though, well that is a different matter, and one that is going to be looked at and discussed.

Everyone has their own inbuilt "ignore" feature and perhaps they should use it more often. There's no physical force coercing posters into answering everything.

If you're "called out" in an unpleasant way, the last thing the caller-out wants is to be ignored. If you ignore them, they'll be the one to lose face, not you.

Look...I am STILL not calling for ANYONE to be banned.  That was never the intention when this all began back on page 2 or 3...  What I want is for the bullshit to stop.  The site is suffering.  People have left.   Good people.  Key people. The number of interesting posts is dwindling and information of value is becoming a more scarce commodity HERE.

So let's just let THAT continue?  Ignore?  Ignore every freaking thread?  You don't get it.  THAT's the problem.  Good gawd!!!

This place is broken...dare I say it?  It's f***ed up.

It really isn't worth the time or the bother anymore.  Moderation in moderation is just useless.  The wagon is stuck in its own 'mud'.  The playground is littered with gigantic pieces of stupid.  I deserve better.  You deserve better.  The general membership deserves better.  And for ALL they've given us over 53 FUCKING years...the Beach Boys collectively and individually deserve better.

But no.

Let me know when the gawd-dam thing is fixed.

 ::)

Better to stay at 120/72 than get tied up in knots, Lee. Hey, do you take requests on your radio show?

HI guys, i'm a rather young 60s affiniado, especially the Beatles and Beach Boys got into my Heart, the Beatles faster than the BBs.

I drove 150 miles to see the re-united Beach Boys in 2012.

I would probably go see Mikes Band (more for Bruce though) when they played my Town, but that's it.

They're not worth the effort, i mean, Mike even kicked his own son out because of the re-union, and that boy/man had a great voice and really could sing some of the Carl songs ImO.

Welcome.

Welcome to the board!

Your's is the voice of reason. Appreciate your calm logic. Thank you, Emily.  :hug

Comment:

Interesting discussion.

Within the past year I’ve attended both the Brian/Alan/Blondie show and the Mike/Bruce show. Both were sold out with an average ticket price of $100+. All age groups attended both shows with a leaning toward gray-haired patrons such as myself. Both shows had everyone on their feet with clapping hands-overhead, dancing in the isles, and wild applauding for an encore.

Each show featured Beach Boy time-honored hits. Each show was devoid of overdone props, excessive lighting, or theatrical gimmicks. Both shows were no-nonsense good music without enough time to even come close to playing the many hits in The Beach Boys roster.

Both bands were made up of excellent players. Both bands were tight. All vocals were rewarding to hear. All the harmonies were present and a joy to experience live.

Brian and Alan bantered with each other and the audience. The same for Bruce and Michael. While each had its own flavor, both styles were entertaining.

In conversations with Brian and Alan at one show, and Mike and Bruce at the other show we all realized that we had one thing in common, and that is our ages are very close to each other’s. Some birth-dates within a few months. Apart from Brian’s back problems, we are all generally healthy old guys able to keep up a demanding schedule without any special wants or needs.

My observation is that Brian, Alan, Mike and Bruce are all good natured, happy, content with what they are doing, interested in continuing with entertaining, pleased with how their past lives have been and where they are going, proud of their children and content with their family life.

So what’s the problem?  Why are so many on this thread so disgruntled with their fellow fans? or with their favorite entertainers? Aren’t we all moved when we hear Beach Boy music? I know it’s in my head all the time. I walk my dog and hear Brian’s lines. I wait at a traffic light and hear Mike’s words. I wash the dishes and Bruce’s harmonies make that task easy. I pay my bills and recall Alan’s prudent ways. I long for Dennis’ company and Carl’s insights.

Are we not all Beach Boy fans here?

Wake Up !! Enjoy! Critique yes, but with respect. Anonymous posting has its pitfalls. It lets each poster be a monster behind a mask … and get away with it. It sometimes brings out the worst and not the best. We would all be better served if each poster wrote as if they were reading his or her words directly to the Beach Boy about whom they were writing. Act and write as if you were in the same room as one of them.

You would be surprised at how human and normal these guys are outside the studio or beyond the stage door. They have problems to solve, responsibilities to meet, life situations to conquer, and not enough time, just like you and I.

There will come a time when they are not on stage. When you don’t have a choice whether to attend this time they’re in town or not. Some day you will not have a band to like or think is awful. The best discussions are of superior quality and thoughtful reflection. Remember that some day you will only have the music and your memories, so make them good.

It’s all GOOD LISTENING,

~Stephen W. Desper   

Bravo, Stephen.

+1 to what Desper said.

Thank you for these great words of wisdom, Stephen!

Stephen, if you showed the band a fraction of the wisdom you showed us, you were indispensable indeed.

Thank you, Stephen and all the others voicing decent attitudes

One simple question: Why is the above post not grounds for immediate and permanent termination of board membership? Providing that after an investigation, said claims in the above post are proven to be false, obviously.

It'd be impossible to prove the PM thing either way, for starters, not without breaking the board rules.

I thought mods were allowed to have access to pm's? Not trying to stir the sh*t, by the way. That one post just rubbed me the wrong way.

I say too much ado about nothing. This whining about board being better place having better posters is just rubbish. It's the same, funny you can't realize it. 2nd, it goes both ways. If you don't like the 2 rampant trolls why even bat an eye? Few pages back, Micha uttered at the end of his post "I have an idea, but stating openly it may get ME banned". If it's not a bait, I dunno what is. NOBODY said ANYthing about bans before that. But of course, some folk had to pick on that bit & tell him "You should express your opinion" blah blah blah. This "hoola hoop" could've easily been avoided & the thread would go on & get written off as another anti-Mike thread (which I thought people at this point got used to?). It all went from there. Then, for some weird reason, posters started chiming in telling their own mini-stories that's got nothing to do with the thread subject, & that was further derailing of it.

I agree with Wirestone - it's not the worst ever moment in history of Smiley Smile. To know which is worst, look up the old threads & you'll forget this case, I guarantee.
And last, smb asked how it can be ignored - well, how the likes of HeyJude, baseball95, punkinhead, Matt H, southbay filter the negativity & continue on? Maybe it's very easy, you're just being stubborn &/or sentimental? It's a standard in online communities - those I know anyway - for people to come & go, for various reasons. It might not be alone due to passive moderation. From where I stand, not only trolls bring down the overall vibe, also those that keep replying to them WHILE repeating the cliched line "Don't feed the troll". Where is logic?

It had me scratching my head too. I mean, how on Earth would SB know what PMs AGD might have been sending? As he's not a mod, I'd have to assume a mod or perhaps an admin (do we have admins as well as mods?) had mentioned it to him/her, and that would have involved divulging the contents of a PM, which I understand is not allowed between sender/recipient, let alone non-involved parties, and no matter how things might appear to have deteriorated, I don't see any of our mods doing such a thing, especially with a poster as much in the sights of the mob's fury as SB. His allegations, assuming the above, have to be false. Otherwise, if PMs – Personal Messages – are being read then we might as well rename them Postcard Messages, which, as everyone is aware and therefore couldn't be shocked, can be read by the postman. :lol

Huge kudos to Mr Desper for his post btw; I hope this moderation issue can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction so the music can once more be first and foremost here. Great to see Billy and GF back among us and monitoring traffic.

Because people are PMing the info. SB has a large circcle of Board friends. I was PMing a member about their ML post last week and they mentioned they had received a nasty PM about their post from ...........

Pretty sure a lot of us have received a nasty PM from he who should not be named. I certainly hear about it a lot from various people, or see it mentioned on the board even. Who would it have been that sent Lana some abuse? Only one guess really.

So I'm with you there.

*prepares for angry PM*

And it's all because I hide behind a monicker right? Im waiting for that to factor into this, because I love all that - criticizing people for not wanting their names exposed like EVERY OTHER FORUM. I don't mind sharing my name with people online, but I prefer to have some control over it. It's not a big deal and shouldn't be, but for whatever reason some of the denizens of this board have made it a big issue.

The day I change my online name to the one on my passport and my avatar to a close up of my face is the day I stop being that person  ;D

Smile Brian is lying. Billy, you have my permission go into my PM outbox and report back here with the exact number of these  tons of messages pushing my agenda and manipulating this board.

You can delete PMs from your Outbox so your offer is meaningless.

Totally agree there, Stephen! Well said.  8)

A relatively unexplored Beach Boy era is Mike's assumption of creative control post-Kokomo. I am however reluctant in opening a thread on the topic -- a thread that will be necessarily critical of the direction Mike took the band -- but as the board now stands, a substantive discussion on the subject would be quickly derailed by trolling.

Mike Love is central to the Beach Boys story, but on this board such a central topic cannot be discussed in a rational manner. That's a problem.

There is an option to have a copy sent to your private email, and that is always a good idea.  It could be incoming or outgoing.

And, Mr. Desper's words should be a good guide to taking a neutral stance on all of this.  He looks at each band member"s strengths.  Looking at the positive instead of finding negative.  We are all flawed beings. 

Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate and please be safe, and above all, cautious, everyone else.  ;)

This is what I see as a main problem. Any discussion of Mike turns into name calling and choosing up sides. There are real things to discuss here. But, if you say anything positive, you're accused of being a Mike apologist. And if you say anything negative, you're accused of being a Brianista. So, actual discussion devolves and dies a nasty death.

Agreed.  Like him or not, The Beach Boys would've likely ceased to exist a long time ago if not for Mike.

OK, so we might've been spared the mostly awful Summer in Paradise album.  But, a whole generation of Beach Boys fans never would've had the opportunity to hear the songs live.  And who knows if the 50th Anniversary album/tour would've even happened had The Beach Boys called it a day back in the 80s or 90s. 

A discussion being kind of repetitive and circular, and even generally negative, is different from full-on “troll” type threads.

I’d say there are both “anti-Mike” and “pro-Mike” folks that contribute to the rather circular, predictable, and repetitive debates. And maybe those even get kind of snippy and agitated. To the degree “discussions of Mike quickly turning sour” is impacting the board, it isn’t just “anti-Mike” trolls impacting *that*. A refusal to ever acknowledge anything negative about Mike contributes to *that* as well.

But that’s not really what’s being discussed in this thread. It’s a very small group of people who, either knowingly or unknowingly (and there’s a point at which it doesn’t matter which) are posting nothing but troll-ish comments, boring, one-liner negative swipes, etc. There are a few folks on this board who probably post comments that bother *me* more than one-liner boring anti-Mike troll posts. But most of those people still follow the rules of the board, posting things other than insults and barbs and troll comments.

As has been discussed, it’s different when someone’s posting history is pretty much *literally* nothing but bouncing from thread to thread and offering nothing but anti-Mike rhetoric (and calling it “rhetoric” is probably ascribing too fancy of a word to it!). I’m just as annoyed because the anti-Mike trolls sometimes ironically make it *more* difficult for others to offer thoughtful, valid criticisms or even just comments or observations about Mike.

When I started a thread awhile back, honestly and simply asking if anyone had any more information about late 90s reports of Mike “refusing” to appear on stage with Carl, it wasn’t the “anti-Mike” trolls that led solely to that thread being derailed. It was also seemingly “pro-Mike” people looking to be offended when there was no offense, no trolling intended in any way. BUT, the random trolls throwing barbs at Mike over the years probably *did* contribute to some people so quickly jumping up and assuming such a thread was intended to cause consternation.

How many times has a non-inflammatory post simply pointing to an article about Mike been met with a bunch of “counting the minutes until this thread explodes into a trainwreck!” comments? How do we fix that? That answer isn’t to only say nice things forever about the guys in the band. I guess the general tone has to change. Eliminating troll posts would help, I hope.

There are some folks how think a thread discussing Mike allegedly refusing to appear on stage with Carl shouldn’t exist. I strongly disagree with that. But the anti-Mike trolls have contributed to an atmosphere that leads to things like that. I think those who are too quick to be offended own some of the responsibility, but a good first step towards fixing the problem would be to keep people from having an account here where nothing but trolling is occurring.

Only person who could see PMs to my knowledge is the board owner Charles LePage.  And even if I was able to to do it, ORR is right in that the outbox could be deleted at anytime...and more germane, they aren't saved be default anyway.

In any case, with all that said, I do have some specific PMs to send a few specific people...

Thanks Billy… so SB was winding us up! And we fell for it! Ho ho ho!

Good to see things look to be on track to be getting back on track…

Or as I prefer to call it, lying.  ;D

Bait for what? I remember a poster called Pinder who used to get insulted and bullied by SB and OSD over and over for not acknowdging Mike's detestableness, and got no backing from the mods back then either. Unfortunately at some point he got so boiled that he unwisely and against given advice applied the same troll tactics as SB and OSD. He ended up getting banned for life, SB and OSD were allowed to go on. I don't want to suffer his fate. And it was Pinder who voted for OSD to be allowed back!

Expecting to find a PM in the morning, logging off for the night now...

I hope one or two lifetime bans will be reconsidered. A few intelligent posters are missed here, and their absence combined with the behaviour of one or two or more who remain make the board a poorer place. But as said I'm optimistic now that there's mod activity afoot.

Gonna respond to several of these in one shot.








I take responsibility for some of this being like it is right now...not everything is addressed on the board, but rather, privately. That said, it was mentioned that Pinder was banned for life yet OSD and SB were allowed to go on. Pinder wasn't banned for life , at least not directly. It was indefinite. One of his secondary accounts was, however, and when that happened it did affect the initial ban. SB had been suspended for something else, and as mentioned, OSD had been as well. Hell, his suspension lasted a year, and I'd been inundated with constant requests to reinstate him!  There's only one member currently banned that I would reinstate if I had my druthers, but even he admitted the lifetime ban was justified. Likewise, there is one member here (two, actually) who I would ban the living f*** out of if they actually WOULD break a board rule with no kind of gray area, and actually doing so would give me immense pleasure (not proud to admit that, either). Just like those who were banned for life were banned for a good reason, I would need a better reason than me just not liking this person/people for being a bigoted asshole. So, no, Micha, you are not going to be banned for your post, and the fact that you think that you would be actually hurts me. I'm not like that. If I can ban someone I actually dig and have a lot in common with yet someone I despise can roam freely around here, well, I think that proves I can be objective.

As for the overall board itself...honestly, I'm getting tired of getting PMs complaining that so-and-so is 'annoying', or telling me how to do my job, basically trying to play mod.  If you think someone is annoying, put on your big boy/girl pants and ignore them. It's one of the reasons why I avoid the political threads on the Sandbox like the plague, especially some of the more bigoted ones.

Now as far as making allegations about each other, well, that is going to be addressed separately and privately.


Exactly, and it's getting pretty damn old.

Yeah, and I was insulted by Pinder, Nikos, and some others on the board. Like Billy says, it goes both ways.

Debate is great, but when you  go personal, like calling someone childish, troll, or other insult, you have dropped the gauntlet.  As I said before, OSD and SB didn't start the name calling in this thread.

No, YOU came to the irrational conclusion that the only way SB knew about the PMs was because he was getting that information from a mod. I'll go with Doe's often touted Occam's Razor and say that the simplest conclusion is that people have spoken about those PMs elsewhere, whether by PM or, as Woodstock pointed out, on the board itself. As for the agenda PMs....I won't even get into it...but people aren't as stupid as some of you think they are. Take that however you'd like, I'll leave it at that.

But I don't expect any logical thought to come from the crowd that in just this thread have lied about reasons why OSD got banned in the past, claimed that Billy was "bullied" into reinstating OSD, claimed that there was a oh so vocal campaign to get OSD back on the board (oh we're real proud of ourselves for the two threads (one of which was started by Pinder ffs) and 3 pages of posts of a few people wanting OSD back on the board).

Great job guys, really :lol

Fair enough, though it seems I wasn't the only one arriving at a similar conclusion. Swept away in a tide of conspiracy theories! Understandably common.

Can someon post a link to the thread(s) demanding OSD's reinstatement? My quick search has turned up nothing and I'm curious to see where I stood on the issue back then (if indeed I posted at all…)

They are both linked in this post of mine from page 3 of this thread:

Many thanks Rab2591.

Sometimes we get so far up our own collective ass that we forget, this isn't real. The false accusations, the name calling, the anger, the stupidity, the paranoia... it's transient. No-one really gets hurt. Out there, in the real world, people are hurting all the time, and I'm not talking about those whose lives are irrevocably altered - or ended - by murdering zealots from across the entire religious and political spectrum, though (insert your deity of choice) knows, that's horrific enough. I mean those individuals to whom bad things just seem to keep happening: good, good people who deserve far better from this life.

I woke to some deeply upsetting news from someone I consider a good friend who is really hurting right now, will be for some good time and for a reason that makes the intra-mural squabbles here look as utterly pathetic as they truly are. As someone said to me yesterday, "it's just a pop band, that's all". Then, I bristled and explained why that was nonsense. Now, I realise the nonsense was on my side of the fence.

Have a nice day. Not everyone will.

I don't really know what to say, but your post, Andrew, deserves acknowledgment. I'm saddened by it. By your friend's pain; by the pain in your own "voice;" simultaneously, I'm glad for the posted reminder to us all to keep perspective.
Take care.

Well said. I'm sure everybody knows of someone or has a friend that this applies to----I certainly do.

Very sorry to hear your bad news, Andrew. I echo Emily's sentiments.

But the thing is, people here do get hurt. It was your good name, Andrew, that was being dragged through the mud. Of course, at the end of the day it doesn't compare to the level of pain and heartbreak going on out there in the real world. But pain is still pain, no matter how small or insignificant. I'm sorry for your friend. I, too, received  some terrible news from a friend.

Billy, first of all, I want to publicly apologize for having hurt your feelings. That wasn't my intention, I am sorry for that, and do feel no threat from YOU. Everybody thinks you're a great guy, I know Pinder does. I hope your health has become better lately. But to tell you the truth, I was shocked when Pinder instead of OSD and SB was banned. It gave me a creepy feeling of being here in some kind of dictatorship where it is dangerous to voice certain opinions and perceptions. There have been some off-board conversations that showed me that the perception that I fear to voice is shared by some people. In fact I think now more than back then that Pinder was right. That's why I fear to get banned when siding with Pinder. But maybe I just don't know enough about the reason he was banned.

I wonder who that someone is you like and still banned? And I of course would like to know who the two are you would like to ban, but it is objectively inappropriate to tell who they are, so I perfectly understand the discretion/confidentiality (whichever English word applies here).

Happy Thanksgiving to you.

You seem to rate  my "good name" more highly than l do. As for any damage to it... well, considering who was doing the dragging... ;D

Good news seems to be a scarce commodity today.

There are issues raised in this discussion which need to be addressed. First, the specific board rules covering private messages listed in the "Welcome" thread:


Those are and have been the standing rules covering private messages.

Despite some comments and assumptions made in this thread, no moderator can access private messages from anyone at any time. Period. There is simply no way to do this in any form, and the messages are and remain private to the sender and the receiver.

What the quote above outlines is the process that happens if and when a board member receives a private message that they consider inappropriate, offensive, or unwelcome in any way.

If such a message is received, private messages can be reported to the moderators just as a public board post can be reported. The moderators at that point will review and discuss the situation at hand. The private message in question, when warranted and as outlined above, can be requested to be forwarded to the moderators so the situation can be discussed, along with potential actions to be taken. But there is no way, in fact no mechanism in the board's design at all, to allow the moderators to go into anyone's account on their own and read any private messages. If there is a reported post or a dispute, the message is forwarded to the moderators by the recipients who are reporting it. That's it.

The rules are very clearly spelled out, as are the follow-up procedures and potential actions. Whatever else is being suggested by those trying to imply misconduct or abuse of this policy regarding PM's and the reporting process is simply wrong as it applies to the situations mentioned in this thread.

Bottom line: If any board member receives such a PM, the best advice taken from the rules above is and shall remain as such - "Any unwanted or improper private messages should be immediately reported to one of the moderators." Then, the process in place will start among the moderators. No moderator can or will access or read private messages unless such a message is reported by a board member.

Those are the rules. I will follow up with the facts of how all of that relates to the situations being discussed here.

Related to the specifics of these discussions, there were statements posted and assumptions made in the past week which are not factual to how the situations played out between the board members and the moderators involved in the discussions and the actions taken.

When any issues like these are given to the moderators, everything in question including our discussions are archived and saved in case they need to be referenced in the future, or beyond that simply to have everything in question "on the record".

In this situation, we have every discussion archived and available for reference.

Unfortunately all of this went public, and there are people being called liars, people's honesty being called into question, and worse. This is what happened, and this is what can be backed up by the discussions and reports archived and saved.

All of the moderators were forwarded and discussed the messages in question as part of the reporting process.

The first reported message was February of this year. The second was reported in April.

The moderators received these reported messages, as per board rules, and discussed what can be done to resolve the issues. There were issues beyond the messages themselves at play, considering all factors.

Advice was sent to both parties on how to move forward. When parts of that advice were not followed and it went into public posts on the board, both parties received a 7-day timeout ban.


So where does that leave everything as of today, and as of this discussion.

There are people being called liars. There are assumptions and charges being put on board members and moderators that all of the facts of this on record and archived would prove are wrong, and not just wrong but offensive bordering on disgusting on a personal level.

If anyone wants to challenge the facts, let's use the facts that are on the record rather than assumptions and false claims. If it reaches such a point, let's ask for permission of all involved to put some of the facts on the table so everyone being led to believe there was misconduct or accusations of lying can see what the facts really are. Everything in question is archived as per the usual way the moderators have to deal with these issues. This is not an isolated incident, this is not a random process that popped up out of nowhere. Everything was followed as per board rules regarding the handling and reporting of this, and the reported messages were in fact seen and discussed by the moderators.

I cannot believe it has come to this, to be honest. If there are claims that people are lying, or acting against board rules or even basic trust, consider everything in question is archived and available.

Because the claims being made and shared around would fall under the category of a lie (or at best, a case of misinformation) more easily when the actual facts of what happened are reviewed.

I cannot watch as something other than the truth is used to attack other people on this board, no matter who is involved. And the facts do exist.

Huston, we have a problem. GF states "no moderator can access private messages from anyone at any time. Period. There is simply no way to do this in any form, and the messages are and remain private to the sender and the receiver." Yet the rule he quotes clearly states " Private messages will not be read by a moderator unless warranted by the behavior of a board member.  Anyone who becomes a cause for concern due to rude or abusive behavior may have their accounts temporarily frozen and their private and public messages examined to see what final actions should be taken." (emphasis mine). Thus according to the rule as quoted by GF,  PMs can be read by mods if the situation warrants. I'd appreciate clarification on this point. I think we all would.

Read this again, Andrew. Crystal clear. No problems. A board member reported a PM to the mods. Any unwanted or improper private messages should be immediately reported to one of the moderators. That is what was done with two private messages that all three moderators had forwarded to them, and which all three moderators discussed.

All of the discussions between the three mods as well as the two messages which were reported according to board rules are archived and can be presented if necessary.

Keep in mind, these are messages that you said never were sent and did not exist. Three mods saw them and discussed them, according to the board rules.

Reconsider calling out people and calling them liars in light of the facts. Not to mention suggesting improper conduct from any of the mods. It's all archived and ready to post if necessary.

That wasn't my question. You say the mods cannot read the PMs. The rule you quoted clearly states that in certain circumstances, they can. All I asked was for clarification. If the rule is wrong, or outmoded, it needs rewriting.

The PMs I said don't exist are the "tons and tons of PMs" SB alleges I sent "to maintain (my) control and push (my) agenda", not the two reported you cite that date from February & April. Two. Hardly the deluge claimed. Control ? If I had any such influence, this thread wouldn't exist, for reasons I need not explain. Agenda ? Everyone's got one. Mine's accuracy in reporting the history of this band we love as no other, with a side of trying to restore this place to its former glory. That's all. Maybe it's not worth trying any more. Maybe we all need a time-out.

Calling for a better board, as Andrew is doing, should be encouraged.

I'm sorry if Billy and GF feel slighted, but raking AGD over the coals is exactly the wrong thing to do right now.

Is calling people liars and accusing the mods here of improper conduct based on something other than the truth part of that strive for accuracy?

You claim the messages didn't exist or were not sent. All three mods have them and discussed them in detail, again according to board rules.

You claim the mods did or didn't do certain things suggesting misconduct or worse. All the discussions and the messages in question are available and archived.

You're suggesting some infractions by the mods of the board rules regarding the PM reporting process. The discussions we had will show that those rules were followed as written.

You claim people here are liars and worse when the things you claim are being lied about actually happened and do exist.

Who is lying?

But it's OK to rake me and others over the coals based on lies? Let me know.

Part of making the board a better place involves being truthful, especially in member-to-member interactions. Everyone who wants a better board, consider we can at any time go over exactly what happened in the issues being discussed here. And the truth is not what was presented and repeated by others who were not even involved.

Again, the messages I say I didn't send were not the ones you mentioned but the "tons and tons" claimed by Smile Brian. This is the second time I've clarified this. I cannot phrase this more simply, or clearly.

Also, why are you studiously ignoring my request for clarification concerning the contradiction between what you say, and what the rule you quoted states about the mods being able to read PMs in certain circumstances ? How hard is it to say "the rule is outmoded" ?

Since we're talking lies... OSD stated in a post he swiftly deleted (but with TRBB happily screenshotted - see post #116) that I and others are being covertly paid by Mike. That's a lie.

Smile Brian, in post #117, accused me of altering the image of the screenshot. That's a lie. In post #143, he accused me of sending the tons and tons of emails to maintain my (non-existant) control of this forum. That's a lie, if only because he can't know how many I sent or what they contained. It's actually a lie because I didn't send tons of emails. I don't have the time or, truly, the inclination.

All I, and several others, have suggested in this thread is that the mods have, of late, been notably inactive and seemingly allowed the current nonsense to escalate to the current level.

But, as I stated this morning, this is all truly pitiful nonsense in the light of what others in the world, and in particular a good friend, are going through right now. Outside of this forum, and I suspect within it to a degree, NO-ONE CARES. To paraphrase the old Super Bowl joke, 300,000,000 music fans couldn't give a sh*t. Outside of this forum, we - you, I, everyone posting - don't matter. This is not real life. Not even close. People matter, not egos, not who's got the biggest collection or the best contacts. I've met some wonderful people through The Beach Boys, made lasting friendships, heard the best pop music the world can afford. That's enough for me. The rest is all frippery.

The mods cannot directly access any member's private messages. If a member receives a private message that falls under the category of the board rules, whether it's inappropriate, offensive, unwelcome, etc - the rules of the board encourage that member to contact a mod and report the message. After that, the member, in reporting the message, can forward the message(s) to the mods to be reviewed and discussed. That is and has been the process outlined in the welcome page of the forum.

To clarify again: There is nothing in the board's design that allows the moderators to directly access incoming or outgoing private messages of any board member from their accounts. If there is a reported message, the only way the mods will see it is if and when it can be forwarded to the mods. That's according to board rules.

All of those rules are and were strictly followed.

Andrew, they are not emails they are PMs. Many know firsthand of threatening PMs for going against your AGD-enda.

Long day at work, I used the wrong terminology. Elsewhere I've correctly said "PMs". Fact remains, I didn't send "tons and tons". Of anything. And now, I have a life to live, mundane as it might be.

Speaking of PM's... ::)

Andrew's correct here - there is a direct conflict in what Charles' original rule sets out and what Craig and Billy have subsequently explained. Charles said, under the quoted rule 5:


Can I suggest that this rule be rewritten to clarify the fact that only those PMs forwarded by complainants can, and will, be examined by the mods. This, to avoid any future misunderstandings.

As for "tons and tons" of PMs, I'm asking myself exactly how many PMs add up to even one ton, and why hasn't the Internet collapsed under all that weight! ;)

No one -- until GF brought it up -- was talking about private messages sent many months ago. And for the record, I've said some mean things to and about AGD and never received an iota of condemnation from him privately.

But then, I also don't go out of my way to troll others on the board, either.

The fact remains, this place could be better than it is, and AGD isn't a moderator. Billy and GF are. Saying so and advocating for an improvement in the situation should be complimented and not torn down. It's amusing when it's autotune, not so much when it's an actual person.

This thread has some disturbing posts that detract from a civilized exchange of ideas. Terming the musicians who play in Mike's band as Mike's whores is disrespectful in and of itself. The men who play for either Brian or Mike's bands are people who love BEACH BOYS music. The ongoing gotcha attitudes of board members who like one band or the other, in essence  "counting coup" on people who have differing ideas for the sake of f*cking up a thread is simply bad manners. If this behavioral pattern of posting is continued,it is disrespectful of all Beach Boys. Say whatever you like,but say it in a manner that is respectful of everyone's feelings. When I managed a home with mentally ill teenagers, our central rule was The Thumper Theorem...

it applies here just as well

What Peter says. One of the things that keeps me from posting more here is the level of snark even an opinion can elicit from those who "know better." It just seems we all need to show a little more respect… to the band and to each other.

LOL@Thumper Therorem…..

Could I point out (my first post on this thread, so no need to search) that it's a family weekend in the US from today through Sunday (Thanksgiving today), and that 2 of the 3 mods are from the US?  Maybe this could be given a rest until the mods can actually have a life and be with their families?  Not everyone has 24/7 to devote to SS (thank heavens), and the mods are volunteers who have to review all this and respond to all of you, on top of other threads, including the equally insane world of the Sandbox.  And NONE OF US knows what goes on behind the scenes that they also have to address. 

Maybe our "thanksgiving" should be to appreciate these volunteers enough to let them (and those involved in whatever the apparent argument is) time to respond?  Nothing in the drama of this board is a matter of life or death.  And we might want to remind ourselves that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, period.  Unless and until we know the whole story, we're not equipped to comment, really.

Agreed, Debbie. Thanks to the mods and to the experts here.

When I first joined the board, I was pretty enthusiastic and posting left and right about a variety of topics. Unfortunately, the overall tone of the board has become more toxic as the years go on, mainly because of trolling and/or people derailing the discussions in threads to bring up their own personal obsessions over and over and over again. I sometimes wonder "Do any of these repeat offenders even OWN any Beach Boys albums?? Do they have zero interest in Brian's music and just come here to disrupt every thread in some kind of religious fervor?".  It got to the point where the toxicity of the board started to negatively impact my enjoyment of the music (silly, I know). As a result, I stayed away for a while and only then could listen to the Beach Boys with peace of mind. It's a sad state of affairs when someone asks me where they can learn about Brian's music and The Beach Boys and I have to either a) tell them about this place but warn them that they'll have to wade through page after page of imaginary personal vendettas and insults to find something useful or (more often) b) point them somewhere else like the excellent Beachboys.com. While I know that ALL message boards have their share of trolls and malcontents, I would've thought fans of Brian's music would have a little more class and wouldn't be so hateful and disrespectful to the band and each other. 

While it would be impossible for the moderators to police every single thread 24/7, I have seen other boards where mods check in and type something like "stay on topic please" (I'm thinking of the New York Radio Message Board for example). Perhaps that could be a start in the right direction.

Anyway, my two cents. Desper articulated it much better than I could.

I also agree with Desper.

I don't hang out here as much as I once did.  I do feel there are times there have been mods who step in unnecessarily and forcefully to steer (sometimes bordering on squelch) conversation that goes in a non-preferred direction, and other times when a mod stepping in might have been helpful and things are allowed to really get out of control.  But having said that, it's not a job I would want.  Knowing that this is a sensitive topic (perhaps, again, too much so) it shouldn't be taken as more than constructive criticism.  But I know that has contributed to me not posting very much; there are times I've definitely felt -- well, like I didn't want to post here.  Let's leave it at that.

As for the posters on the board, sure, it's fun to take on distant rock stars' lives as avatars for our own beliefs, value systems, musical tastes, and things we would like to represent us and who we are.  We've all done it.  But there comes a point where you kind of have to step back and take a look at your own life.  To demonize anyone that you don't personally know and who has done nothing to you other than possibly offend your taste, or embarrass your own vision of what you think "your" rock band should be like (which is quite a different concern from that of someone for whom it is their livelihood), is really silly.  Asinine, really.  Shutting down all criticism is equally asinine, too.  It doesn't make for a good community.  A community cannot thrive without a petri dish where people can grow their thoughts safely and form bonds without feeling like they have to defend them.

Where I am right now, there's no Thanksgiving, but there sure are a lot of impoverished people who, because of the hardships in their lives and their need to rely on each other to get through each day, teach me to live better by their inspiration of hope and acceptance.  What is the Beach Boys' legacy?  Group squabbling?  Sure -- but none of the members wanted that.  It's just the inevitable outcome of very different personalities being forced to live in each others' worlds for a lifetime.  What every member strives for, and wants the band's legacy to be, is of positivity and personal connection.  So if this is really your favorite band, do you want to dwell on the worst aspects of each member and of the band's history, and make that the drama you play into -- or their best aspirations for themselves, and for you, the listener?  Drama is an intoxicating drug.  If you inject it, it will take you over and make you its master, and poison the well that surrounds you.  There are better choices to be made, and those choices will naturally draw in the positivity that everybody says they want to see here.  If it really is that important to you to defend your personal investment in a rock band, maybe it's time to broaden one's horizons?  For one's own sake?  

I'm rambling.  Much love to all from Southeast Asia.  Billy Hinsche's cousin, who drives for me sometimes when I'm here, asked me to bring him a Beach Boys CD from the U.S. once because it was beyond his ability to get one.  I did, and he listened to it in the car, and was happy and proud.  Something to reflect on.

I don’t get it. I thought the issue we were discussing and so many of us are asking the mods for help with is the fact that we have a couple of members who are constantly posting stuff all over the board, whenever Mike Love is mentioned, that contributes nothing to the discussion at hand, but instead falls under the definition of trolling.

But then Guitarfool posts something about a couple of PMs from months ago. I don’t know what that’s all about, and at this point I really don’t care. I’m just one of many who would like some relief from the trollish pollution that is seriously damaging the integrity of this board.

It’s the lack of moderator action in that regard that has so many of us frustrated. If the “old” poster (who’s probably around my age, btw) doesn’t like Mike Love, that fine, but if so, express your opinion like an adult, with logical reasoning, rather than constantly clogging up the board with name calling, insults, and tons of “woots” just about every time Mike Love is mentioned. Constant posts in that regard are nothing but trolling.

I also agree that the board rules posted by Charles LePage 10 years ago concerning the moderators access to PMs (which are officially referred to as “Personal Messages” on the mailbox page) and the info posted by Craig are contradictory and should be rewritten to reflect the current reality.

Add me to the list of people that fail to see the link between posters asking that OSD be banned and two PMs AGD sent at the beginning of the year being reported. Smells like a diversion tactic to me.

I'm probably misremembering that this forum used to have an "ignore" button, but I've been on one that did, and while using it made for a somewhat fractured reading experience (and as I seem to recall, you could still see the ignored posts if someone quoted them... I think), it would be a most useful function here. Saying "if you don't like someone's posts, don't read them" is easy enough if there's, say, a thread by Horatio Q. Birdbath entitled "Doodles is an asshole and a drunk", but not all such posts are signposted. There's a degree of threadjacking* involved. I'm down with the Thumper Theorem that Peter espouses. The Desper Dictum too.

[* I may copyright this term]

+1

Whether the board did have an ignore function or not, it *could* do -- http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=2299 . And yes, that would solve all the problems instantly.
The question is whether the mods have access to the back-end to install this. My guess, based on things like them not being able to access PMs, is that they can't, and only Charles LePage could. Which is a shame.

I feel exctly the same.



Silly? I don't think so. That's what happened to me when NPP came out and the board exploded with insults and hateful comments. Though none of them were directly adressed to me (at least none that I saw), the hate against people who were, like me, disappointed by the album affected me severely. How can I enjoy music which is loved by people who are insulting assholes? I had to take time off the board too.

There's been some perceptions told in some of the recent posts, which want to ask a question to guitarfool2002 which, as another poster suggested, he should answer calmly after spending the Thanksgiving weekend with his family.

Dear guitarfool2002, what exactly have reported PMs from the first half of the year to do with the ongoing discussion about the misconduct of a couple of posters? I don't get that either.

Too late. Way too late. Unless it was you who introduced the term to the Wiktionary in 2006. ;D

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/threadjacking

Well... goshdarn it.  ;D

No Pier Pressure is so bad it makes Pet Sounds stink.

What is that supposed to mean?  :-X

Beats me, and English is my first language (OK, after fluent bollocks when required).

+2 (or is it 3?)

Really!!!  The whole idea of what's absolutely necessary in terms of what HAS to be done to right this ship gets highjacked by a moderator?  The people who need to be assisted in 'changing' their modus operandi get replaced with Andrew who becomes 'the immediate problem'?  WTF!!!!!!!

Sorry that is so clearly not what's required here and NOW.  Yet obviously something HAS to be done.   Typing about this...reading all of this...and all the onging BS which caused this???...is NOT what I signed up for. ::)

Again...Moderators...GET TO WORK!!!!!!!!

It was my understanding that you were taking a hiatus, a cruise, a leave of absence  :whatever from here. Couldn't wait to get back into it, huh?

Why are we talking about PMs ?

This is a Beach Boys discussion board. Mike Love is of central importance to the Beach Boys story. Therefore, Mike Love must be discussed on this board. But he can't be, because any mention of his name brings out the trolls, those who add nothing to the discussion but the same repetitive, unreasoned, crude expressions of dislike. Therefore, at its core, smiley smile becomes dysfunctional. It sputters, stalls, spins out of control.

Don't like Mike's actions, lyrics, stage deportment, singing, interview answers, etc? Fine. In many cases, I would agree with you. But these expressions of disapproval should advance the conversation, should be pertinent to the conversation, or failing that, should at least be amusing.

Is there really no fix for this problem, other than to ignore it, which -- correct me if I'm wrong, please -- is what the mods are proposing?

I've wondered for quite awhile about an ignore function here. I think it would help. There's presumably not a way to fully ignore people. For instance, if you put someone on "ignore", but then someone else responds to one of their posts and quotes it, then you'll still see the original post.

But I do think it would help. It might be worth trying if it were possible, which it very well may not be.

As much as it would please me to see OSD gone I will admit that I'm not 100% comfortable with demanding that someone be banned. An ignore button would be perfect, then each member can tailor the board to their liking. Not to name names but there are several posters here that I would gladly never interact with again if I could have the choice not to.

It's a neat idea but as has been mentioned it'd make for a broken read and threads seeming to be out of context… instead of demanding a ban, perhaps we (those of us who've stuck with this banality) can politely, collectively, request one?!

I don't think it would make us miss anything at all.
Thread about a Mike & Bruce show now:
Original poster -- comments about the show
Polite response 1 -- I don't like Mike & Bruce much, but glad you had fun
Polite response 2 -- I hope they do that rarity when they play my town. It's my favourite
OSD -- Myke Luhv sucks!
SB -- W00t! Yeah! You tell 'em! Emoticon emoticon emoticon
Annoyed responder to OSD and SB -- For the love of God please stop that
Polite response 3 -- Who sang $rarity? I know Jeff normally sings that, but he's got a cold.

Thread as we would see it with an ignore button:
Original poster -- comments about the show
Polite response 1 -- I don't like Mike & Bruce much, but glad you had fun
Polite response 2 -- I hope they do that rarity when they play my town. It's my favourite
[OSD & SB comments ignored]
[Annoyed responder doesn't respond, because he's got OSD and SB on ignore]
Polite response 3 -- Who sang $rarity? I know Jeff normally sings that, but he's got a cold.

Isn't it somewhat ironic to read some ones comments about other peoples behavior when they have comments like "hating "BW since.... and NPP sucks as part of their calling card. I do realize it's supposed to be funny, cleaver, annoying to some people etc. but  really? I do love the avatar though (please don't tell me you're a fan of Nixon).

If I remember correctly, you were banned for insulting a poster in AGD's style and chose not to post here once your ban ended. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. ::)

Thread title-Mike's Whore Band. I didn't start the fire. So big deal, I and others added some kindling. It wouldn't be the first time by any means that this has been done on many a topic. And what is this crap about derailing a thread-I see plenty of junk I don't agree with by the same people but I don't ask the mods to ban them-who cares? It's a message board for Christ's sake. ::)

No it's not supposed to be 'cleaver' Gerry. I also doubt it's fucking up every thread it comes into contact with, unlike OSD.

Two instances of what is wrong with the board right here.


^ No reason to call attention to the typo...Gerry didn't do anything to warrant that.


Absolutely no reason to bring that up.

Hey, that's exactly what I meant, you know that your comments are cutting that they cleave so to speak. Damn that spel check anyway.

I believe you, thousands wouldn't. As it's (almost) Christmas I shall take down the offending NPP line.

Harmless banter.

OK, just making sure. Lately, it's been  hard to tell (due to the general atmosphere on the board).

If left to run wild, BB fans would roam the forests and fields in two or three different herds. As it is, they are held together in one enclosure. Can they survive or will they eat each other?
Can they at least agree to step away from the current uproar and let the mods have a breath? I think Debbie's right that if two of the mods are American, and as their work is voluntarily done, it would be kind to try to back off until the end of the weekend, allowing the mods time to relax and deliberate, and perhaps raise the matter again in a new thread on the SmileySmile business board (don't remember the name and as I'm on a phone will likely lose what I've typed if I go look).
Is that a reasonable suggestion?

I actually think it was fair enough to bring it up. Yes, I *was* banned -- for a week, two and a half years ago, by (if I remember right -- I may not) someone who's no longer a moderator -- for insulting another poster. Not, though, "in AGD's style", but entirely in my own -- I need no lessons in rudeness from anyone ;) . Specifically, when insulting the other poster I was defending Brian and his band from a poster who was repeatedly calling for Brian to sack half his band and replace them with a synthesiser.

The reason I stopped posting was that that ban was justified -- I was behaving badly. And the main reason I was behaving badly was because the atmosphere here was getting so horrible it was actually affecting my mental and physical health to get involved in the endless, petty, squabbling. I was turning into an unpleasant person, and behaving unpleasantly, so I stopped engaging.

I have come back partly because I am somewhat healthier at the moment, and partly because the site has deteriorated even further, and I've come to the conclusion that it's moral cowardice on my part to disengage from the site rather than try to constructively improve it.

Nobody needs my two cents on the nonsense within this thread and so many like it, but hey, my ego is such that I can’t stay entirely out of anything going on this long, so bear with me and my patronizing twaddle. Or pretend there’s an ignore feature and move along.

First, I agree whole-heartedly with AGD’s earlier sentiments—yes, the same AGD who called me a patronizing twaddler during one disagreement, but whom I consider often very reasonable and absolutely one of the more valuable posters here, like him or not (I do, actually)—that this is just a message board. Life is real. Life means something. This? Bah. If it’s causing you any real distress, just leave. It’s the fucking Internet, a bunch of 1s and 0s.

Second, some members clearly behave as trolls. I won’t call them trolls (mostly for fear that I’m one of those people Billy wants to ban). (Yep, sadly, I’m that self-absorbed that I think everything must be about me. I’m not proud of it.) But the behavior—the childish one-note, emoticon-laden trash obviously intended to get a rise out of (especially certain members of) the board—is trollish.

But ban them, don’t ban them, I don’t care. Because unless I’m mistaken, posting stupidly and repetitively isn’t a bannable offense. (I made that up, because I’ve never read the rules. It was an assumption, actually. Ass, you, me, yes, I know.) If it were, many of us would be banned at one time or another. Billy brought up the political Sandbox threads, which I love and hate, and a careful perusal of those would show me totally worthy of being banned. Sometimes someone gets your goat. I’m as weak as anyone else in being above that, despite repeated efforts at redoubling my resolve.

I think it would be great if we as a community—which we are—could do that. Redouble our resolve. In an environment where we can each say what we please, we have to realize there are people saying things we’re going to dislike … sometimes almost violently despise. What’s more, I think it’s important to keep in mind that we’re not all here for the same reasons, so it isn’t even a matter of disagreeing on this or that point in the pursuit of [thing]: you can’t get mad at a baseball player for doing something against the rules of football if the field isn’t designated as one for either a baseball or football game. Serious research, social interaction among people with a shared interest, paraphernalia collection, musical dissection, pop culture curiosity, or whatever else, we’re a diverse bunch doing diverse things.

In such an environment, a few adolescents of all ages feel the need to put a bag of sh*t on the front stoop, light it on fire, and ring the doorbell. We can waste an inordinate amount of energy raising taxes to fund an expanded police force—indeed, more accurately, even whip up a vigilante citizens’ brigade—to watch every doorstep, to trail every bratty teenager walking around after dark, to hide in the bushes to pounce at the moment of sh*t-fire. (I feel like Frank Lahey at the moment. In a couple ways, none of which involve uniforms or Randy.) We can do that.

Or we can just accept that some people are immature. Kind of stupid. Boring. And if their lives are somehow fulfilled by giggling over grown-ups stomping on their flaming shitbags, we can recognize that maybe a cup of water is a better solution than stomping it out.

And we can pity them their pathetic pastime as we continue with our grown-up lives. That’s not up to moderators—especially volunteer moderators of a message board dedicated to a pop music band. If you want a better board, do your part to make the board better.

Excellent post with excellent use of metaphor, Captain. A+

Very well said, especially the last sentence. 

And no, you're not even close to being banned! As far as the political threads, it's not the actual viewpoints, but when some use it to further their racist agenda, well, I have a major issue with that...and that's not from you anyway! You're fine, dude

(Anyone else here sharing my sense of inadequacy? I've not had a nasty email from a board member or a warning shot from a mod… A few friendly ones from all kinds of folk recently but … well … what am I doing wrong?)

Seems to be a mild climate of fear prevailing currently. That posters, even in jest, feel they have to hold back... this can't be right.

Agreed. I have an idea/suggestion that may help clear things up. I think that the list of rules might benefit with a quick list of examples of "bannable offences"(all created with fictional characters, of course). These examples will spell out specifically what you can and can not say on this board. I know, you're probably reading this and thinking "I don't need to be patronized and treated like a child". Sadly, it's almost come to this. Apparently, if you don't don't spell it out in words people understand, some people don't know better.

Works for me.

#notthebeachboys. ;)

 :lol Works for me.

There are only a few, very clear rules.  Clear enough, that non-native speakers of English seem to understand and respect.  It is quite simple for me.  

First, posters follow the rules they agreed to, when they joined.  

Second, moderators please enforce the rules.  Failing to enforce what is clear, only serves to embolden those who continue their nonsense. And it chases off people who come here with an open mind to all band members, past and present.    

Emoticon rules are not the solution.  Nor is censorship which no one wants, either.

COMMENT:

Does this connote that the disentanglement of my interlaced ambiguities will perpetually remain imprisoned thoughts? Should I relocate to the Hoffman board if presenting a divergent expression judged inconsistent to the prevailing attitudes?    ~swd

No one could blame you but please don't.  We've already managed to drive off what should have been valued guests because we couldn't manage to extend common hospitality in the face of challenging viewpoint.  Loren Darro anyone?  Hopefully we can get ourselves under control. 

Just my opinion so don't anyone get too exercised and insulty over it.

ANY board member who receives what they feel is an inappropriate, offensive, or unwelcome private message from another board member is encouraged to report it to a moderator.

I've already covered this in detail in this thread, and also reposted the official board rules covering private messages. Despite claims to the contrary, there is nothing that requires clarification.

To spell it out in the most basic, common-sense way: If a private message is reported, and the moderators are contacted by the recipient, that message can be forwarded or requested to be forwarded to the moderators for review. Otherwise, there would be nothing for the moderators to review. If further action is deemed necessary, if it is determined that the message (or messages) in question violated a board rule, then further action will be taken as with any reported public post on the board.

Repeating yet another time: The moderators can not directly access any board member's messages. PERIOD. If there are questions about access from the administration/owner specific to that process, the questions should be directed to them.

The same rules regarding conduct between board members applies to private messages as it does public posts.

If there are attempts to avoid those rules of public conduct by using private messages for reasons other than normal, person-to-person conversation, that behavior will NOT be tolerated.


If ANYONE receives a private message which they feel was inappropriate, offensive, or unwelcome, PLEASE contact a moderator and report it.

I agree that we need more civility around here, but I'm not sure that I would make Loren Darro the example of how bad this board can be. He came in with an agenda and a chip on his shoulder, said some generally offensive things, and got hateful when people challenged his assertions. That's not quite the same as someone coming in and starting a thread for reasoned discussion that gets hijacked by insults and snark that do nothing to further the conversation.

This sets it all out in a clear and concise fashion.
Draw a line in the sand and move on.

 :lol

Guitarfool, with all due respect, PMs are not the main issue of concern here -- it's trolling.

Yes, I agree. 

We aren't privy to whatever PM's have been exchanged but we can all see this constant vitriol.   

Indeed. There is a widely expressed feeling in this thread that something needs to be done about the disruptive posting of certain people and now a line has been drawn under the PM issue, hopefully this will be addressed.

Pugnacious arrogance. Therein lies the root of the problem. It's an "across the board", irascible problem that should be terminated immediately if not sooner.

Yeah 'cos Andrew offers absolutely nothing of value to this board, what do you bring?

Here's an idea...let's all move on from this. For my own personal reasons,  I may not be on this board much longer ,but I still want to see the board improve before I sign off forever. The only way that'd going to happen though is if you people start being more respectful of each other.  I'm locking this thread right now. I should've done this several pages ago, butI've been distracted,  so to speak, as I've had the month from hell.

Unlocking this one in light of some new developments. Some feel that the advice or actions taken by the mods warranted a reaction like the one seen in the discussion you can find at this link: http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1448346206.56746&user=bellagio (http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1448346206.56746&user=bellagio)

And in the transcript below.

This is disgusting. Is this the kind of atmosphere the consensus wants to see on this or any board community?

Is it in any way coincidental that the loudest criticisms in this discussion elsewhere the loudest voices on this board calling for the moderators to do what they would like to see done...and if not, I guess it justifies personally ripping the moderators apart as they see fit? Slander? Or just disgusting behavior from adults who should know better, especially in personal interactions?

And it says a lot about the character involved in doing this that it couldn't be done one-on-one, but had to be plastered all over other BB related message communities. Is that what the consensus wants here? Don't agree with the moderators' decisions?

Go to other forums and try to ruin their names.

That's what people want?

I'd also like to ask the other admin and mod of the other forum why this was allowed to stand on that board as people not even connected were being ripped apart, while those doing the ripping apart are calling for so much on this board at the same time.

Here it is, the posts in question and some removed that weren't a part of this mess...read the entire sad saga at the link.





Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 24, 2015 at 06:23:26 by AGD

The rumour is, it buckled under the weight of increasingly inane posts. Abnormal service will be resumed shortly. Maybe.




Re(3): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 24, 2015 at 19:11:19 by AGD

Pretty much the same name, but he was banned permanently. Then someone decided to allow him back. As they say, epic fail.


Re(4): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 25, 2015 at 22:50:18 by beachballtwo

That board should be designated as a Brian Wilson board instead of a Beach Boys board. The two main American moderators are both Brian fans with mostly negative views of the Beach Boys and especially Mike. I think even Brian's people know that, and given the fact that board gets way more traffic than the Blueboard, no wonder they had Brian do a Q and A there. I don't know why people who like the touring Beach Boys even bother posting there. It would save time and bother.


Re(5): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 27, 2015 at 04:54:51 by LeeMarshall

Smiley Smile board currently a downer...is a more appropriate 'heading'.

Hope they 'fix it' soon...'cause right now it's dang close to being an ongoing, unwavering and unceasing waste of time.

At least that's the way it is for me.


Re(6): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 27, 2015 at 09:04:09 by beachballtwo

They made a very poor choice of moderator replacement last time there was an opening. Perhaps best to leave it at that. I also don't get the whole obsession with PM's on that board. Boards should not really need a PM function, and many if not most music boards don't have them. It also encourages clique-like behavior that goes unseen. Also, when appointing a moderator, it's best to find a person who has a good nature instead of an incredibly thin skin and who takes everything personally, regardless of their point of view on the topics at hand.



Re(7): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 27, 2015 at 14:58:48 by filledeplage

beachballtwo - I happen to like and respect the mods but posters should be respectful of all The Beach Boys and fellow posters.

We can all have favorites, or not, but should respect the work of all the musicians who have blessed us with their respective contributions.

They are knowledgeable but they shouldn't have to be babysitters or hall monitors.



Re(8): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 27, 2015 at 15:17:25 by beachballtwo

Moderators are supposed to moderate. A fine job would be not allowing that stuff to spiral out of control. But maybe no one with a thick skin and time to read every thread was willing to do that unpaid job. As it is, that board not only discourages good posters from posting, but from reading. I only visit for schaudenfreude, or however you spell it. It is sort of funny.



Re(9): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 28, 2015 at 16:32:59 by Steve Murphy

I don't know enough to make an informed opinion, but I do remember thinking, on a few occasions, that one of the moderators demonstrated somewhat bizarre behaviour.



Re(10): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 28, 2015 at 18:17:36 by beachballtwo

Depends on what you mean by bizarre. But it's more the unseen moderating, or lack of, that is a problem. It is letting a couple of posters or so get away with contributing nothing but a bunch of nonsensical thread trolling. Then the larger problem of people getting too personal and insulting each other and not much getting done about it. A whole other layer of drama involving private messages. But it may be down to the posters themselves. The level of discussion has been going down to a childish level even outside of the trolling and insults. Lots of repetition of subjects and threads that go on for ten pages or more with no info added. It used to be sometimes informative, even for a subject about which pretty much everything has been said.


"Everyones afraid to post on here."
Posted on December 4, 2015 at 14:15:36 by AGD

The two dozen (give or take) responses in this thread would seem to argue strongly against your premise... and if you believe there's bullying here, I strongly suggest you avoid Smiley Smile.




Re(13): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 29, 2015 at 22:30:29 by beachballtwo

I think maybe the Beach Boys as a subject are all talked out. It's all been done. A reunion (while it lasted), Smile completed, now the officially sanctioned Brian biopic. So many books written. So many posts posted on message boards in so many iterations, back to the white board, Male Ego, the Deja news groups, PSML, etc. Enough!




Re(14): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 30, 2015 at 03:20:31 by LeeMarshall

That's it really. Except for new releases and special upcoming events it has ALL been said...dozens upon dozens of times...plus one.

Problem is...we older fans who basically 'went it' alone until we all came together to discover what a mass of humanity we are collectively on-line...don't want to go back to doing 'it' all alone again.

These boards empowered us...as a team. It's why we don't suffer trolls gladly...or do-nothing 'monitors' who won't face the issues which matter.

But ya. It's all been said. All of it.





Re(16): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 3, 2015 at 03:51:38 by LeeMarshall

True. Context is SO key. Resulting contextual ramifications too. Anyway...we all have so much in common. And we fight? About what? About minutia and b.s.

And Mods allow that to occur ad infinitum...and for the incessant baiting to continue? And for the board to collapse under it's own self-inflicted weight of the pointless confrontational loathing?

Couple that with "it's all been said before" and we'll soon be floating on a few rafts over an ever expanding sea of neglect and indifference.

It's our destiny 'filled'.

And I don't like it.



Re(17): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 3, 2015 at 14:36:17 by filledeplage

Lee - historical context is everything in music and art and always has been. The BB's are no different. We've had a lot of "practice" in defense of the music. So, bring it on.

It is important that this nonsense be challenged and that we aren't run off a forum for expressing neutrality and balance with regard the music. The BB's are each, extraordinarily gifted and brought much to that banquet table.

The mods do have a really hard job, balancing "behavior and censorship" - and that must be dealt with. There are too many knowledgeable contributors on that board to have a few, whose behavior is unacceptable to run good posters off the road.

It is our destiny only if we accept it. And I am not accepting it. I've (we've) had a lot of practice.




Re(17): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 3, 2015 at 06:19:54 by beachballtwo

Well, anyone can see for themselves the dysfunctional moderating, when there is a very recent post that runs on for paragraphs, attacking several posters over there by name. And not only does a moderator not remove it or move it, he chimes in, basically agreeing with the guy. I am really not sure why the uber Brian fans don't move over to the Blue board if they hate any type of perceived criticism of Brian and his team. The Blueboard could use the traffic, because it seems to get very few page views, last I looked. They think Brian needs to feel more love from the fans, yet they don't go to his message board instead.




Re(18): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 4, 2015 at 07:29:28 by AGD

The current problems with Smiley Smile are twofold.

1 - The trolling by Smile Brian & Old Surfer Dude. They contribute nothing and disrupt any given thread with their juvenile, incessant posting on one, threadbare topic... and yet, nothing is done. Happily, in the last 24 hours, the sainted Andrew Hickey has developed a little script you can add to Firefox and Chrome browsers that reduces their twaddle to "This poster is ignored". I made it work in under five minutes, and I'm technologically illiterate. Here 'tis:

http://andrewhickey.info/the-smiley-smile-ignore-button-sort-of/

If I had a mortal soul, it would be his in perpetuity.

2 - the appointment of guitarfool2002 as a mod has proven to be a calamitous mistake. As noted above, he's too thin skinned, not even close to impartial, pursues vendettas at brain-numbing length and is not above trying to disrupt a thread by introducing irrelevant points. Billy & Klass (both fine people and excellent mods) have been otherwise occupied of late with real life problems, and that the board has got into its present state with one active mod is surely not coincidental.




Re(19): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 4, 2015 at 17:57:43 by beachballtwo

I have not posted on that board in well over a year, but when I did participate, I recall getting a PM that indicated guitarfool had a lot of so-called friends on the board. That was before he was appointed moderator. So I do think there are hidden cliques that exist due to the PM function. I'm also not as confident of Billy as most people are. I just have memories of a stunt he pulled during the white/yellow/black board days. I know he was very young then, but it colors my perception. Oh,well, it's not that big of a deal. Most people would not want that gig.





Re(20): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 4, 2015 at 18:19:04 by filledeplage

BB2 - GF brings a lot of knowledge to the board and I would hate to see any of them go. And these are not first time offenders. GF and the other mods had to go out on a limb to lift the sanctions against the perps.

So now, the behavior has reverted to pre-banning, and unfortunately posters are leaving for no reason other than the constant untenable trolling. They could be regretting that their good faith has been breached. The mods gave reprieves that may have been proven to have been a really bad decision.

All that is needed is enforcement of the existing rules.




Re(21): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 4, 2015 at 20:05:41 by beachballtwo

There is a difference between being a poster and a moderator. GF was thin skinned and argumentative as a poster. Being informative does not change that basic quality. Not a good quality to have for a mod, which made his selection surprising. No wonder fewer people post there. He has a really low threshold of what he finds to be anti-Brian. He also seems to have been the one who invented the Mike agenda garbage. I am a Brian fan, but I don't get why anyone is required to like NPP or believe that Brian did absolutely everything including pick every guest artist. If Brian had done it all without the assistance of Mr. Joe Thomas, I suspect it would have been a better album than it is.





Re(22): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 4, 2015 at 22:49:48 by AGD

The thing is, too many posters - mods included - are taking the "look, respect each other, be reasonable and we'll all get along" route. Which is fine, if everyone was respectful and reasonable. Snag is, at least two (three guesses...) aren't. Smile Brian keeps accusing me of having an agenda, which is odd considering his/her agenda is more transparent and vitriolic than any I might have. OSD is just a troll, and for someone in his late 60s, that's (to be polite) unseemly. What many of us cannot fathom is why they seem to have the tacit "protection" of the mods. Maybe the board will have to fall apart before action is taken.





Re(23): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 5, 2015 at 00:27:46 by beachballtwo

I don't think they really are even attempting to warn people to stop, though. They're just refusing to engage while tacitly approving of the two trolls in question. Who don't really write posts, but emoticons and random short babbling. At least one of the mods, who shall remain nameless, discussed going for an after show drink with surfer man, so I think you know why that mod has not banned him.

I think the board is slightly chilled, too, by having associates of Brian and Mike post there, not to mention Brian and Mike themselves going on there for brief times. It justifies people accusing others of having an agenda, as well as the admonishment that people need to be more respectful in case sensitive Brian reads it from time to time. No one will ever say that Mike Love is particularly sensitive, so maybe they figure it's okay to say bad things about him, continuously and without end and to the point of boring-ness, until even Mike dislikers get tired of it. How many woots, ,and myke luvs and brooth posts can anyone bear to read?





Re(24): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 5, 2015 at 01:30:41 by filledeplage

BB2 - People in this BB sphere are bound to cross paths socially. There were so few "like minded" that it is such a treat to meet up and discuss the music that has occupied a corner of your life. And the risk being a huge fan, is that you could talk all night, after "last call."

What gets me is the basic disrespect that some (and everyone has his or her own preferences) have such that everything is "personal" - and they can't get beyond these differences and have a civil, adult conversation. This band came from the "same place." And you are talking about someone's family. It is classless and tasteless.

When you're a mod, there is a "line"just like the classroom, and mods are on one side and posters are on the other. And, maybe it is easier to ask a buddy to please "dial it back" because the mods get the blowback, and these guys volunteer their time and talent.

But at a certain point, even a volunteer needs to "pull the plug" on an acquaintance if that person becomes so disruptive it taints the whole board and becomes contentious. And if the poster was a true friend, he/she would just leave and not compromise the friendship to the point that it hurt the cred of the mod.

Should nothing happen, I guess the words of my mother echo, if band members are reading the board, and they should just "consider the source." Just write them off.




Re(25): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 5, 2015 at 23:26:45 by beachballtwo

Old surfer dude changed his screen name recently to override the ignore hack. I don't think the mods would ban him no matter what he does.





Re(15): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on November 30, 2015 at 11:30:48 by jh1522

Sadly I Have to agree with you, it has all been said over and over again.

But my point was and still is?, if people were allowed to make some harmless comment's, or try and get a discussion going about some BBs album, concert, songs, or god forbid just make an honest opinion about the band we love, I really do think we would have a lot more people posting on here.

After all we are all on here for the same reason.
Because were all very passionate about the BBs.




Re(12): Smley Smile board currently down
Posted on December 4, 2015 at 09:43:48 by Val

Fair comment, John, but I thin the couple of aforementioned folk on the SS Board go way beyond having a "fun discussion" and turn everything into, well...have a look for yourself.

These days, I never post on the SS Board and don't look at it very much at all, either. The reason? Basically, the two Andrews as stated above have said it all.

God Bless Billy and Klass, though. Good Guys.

A lot to read through, but I have to comment on something right away... I don't know who 'beachballtwo' is or why he seems to have a problem with me, but



is patently false. I don't have a negative view of the Beach Boys at all, or Mike. For starters, I've always felt AND said that the best period of the Beach Boys was 1967-1972, when Brian WASN'T the main creative force. As far as Mike goes, I've *never* put down Mike's contributions to the band, and in fact I'm one of the few here who actually really likes Looking Back With Love.

I'm honestly speechless right now. And the thing about me being biased (at least I think it was directed to me) is crazy, considering I banned a good friend from the board. Still talk to him often , but not gonna reinstate him.

And OSD changed his name BEFORE the ignore function (which I do agree the ignore function was a GREAT idea...if I'd had any kind of coding ability, I would've done that a long time ago), because he had issues logging in.

I also hope the 'bizarre behavior' wasn't a swipe at me when I went through a severe depression after my stroke 4 years ago.

I'm honestly at a loss right now. I dunno. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive right now.

The advice to ignore and avoid interaction was given numerous times to numerous people by numerous mods, up to and including this week. It's sad that the advice was ignored for so long, even more sad that adults interacting with each other would need to create and install a device instead of following the simple advice that has been given all along.

Now we have this. Rip people apart, and do so on other forums.

Tell me about slander again?

On the plus side, at least we don't have eyeball-bleeding yellow backgrounds and formatting seemingly devised by Satan himself here. I can see why they'd want to shove you guys out and take over here... that freakin' yellow!

All pretty petty political sh*t and posturing, authoritarians without authority are always a bit of a headache under the best circumstances. Fanning the flames, making it worse, classic baiting... This drama is getting out of hand!

The mods here generally do a great job. And explain themselves in endless detail to people that don't respect them. Kicking them while they're down and pretending you're doing it out of some noble purpose instead of being just as vicious as the trolls you bemoan is pretty silly. Somebody properly sort out ignore filters if old-fashioned manual ignoring doesn't work. Either that or maybe we can all meet and have a knife fight or something while singing at the same time.

Huh.  Weeelll...yeah.

I can understand how the moderators must feel in reading this, particularly if there's other more important personal stuff going on, but honestly, to my mind compiling all these comments and reposting them here and then re-opening the thread doesn't do much to counter the perspectives expressed therein (and I didn't post any of them myself, for the record), or make people feel more comfortable in the free flow of thought here.  

Whenever we're on the receiving end of this kind of thing, there's an opportunity to reflect and improve, and there's an opportunity to be defensive and angry and hurt.  The latter is understandable because no criticism is ever totally fair or warranted, particularly when we're doing the best we know how.  No one likes to read sh*t about this themselves - I've been there, actually...far worse stuff than this.  I once had an entire website, plus a bulletin board, devoted solely to the proposition that I am an a**hole.  So I totally get it.  The former reaction - to reflect - is more productive, though, because most criticism, however poorly phrased or possibly unfair or hurtful, does have a kernel of truth to reflect and grow with, particularly if it comes from multiple sources.

Ironically, I can remember once expressing similar sentiments here - about music production - that garnered a response that more or less made me stop posting here, because that response seemed rather out of line to me.  So I'm concerned that it's unwise of me to even post - but again, that's not a good feeling to have on a message board, right?

I have a lot of respect for anyone who would want to take on the job of moderating a board.  As I've said before, it's not a job I would want.  That said - compiling a whole bunch of posts on another internet site (Facebook?) of people blowing off steam and who obviously didn't feel comfortable doing it in this venue, and then reposting it here - it's really not cool to me. I think it reinforces some of these criticisms rather than clearing the air and rebutting them.  To me, it isn't constructive, nor positive, nor helpful.  I understand the justification for doing it.  But really, people should have the right to blow off steam on their own pages.  If the stuff was posted here, that would be different.  But it wasn't.  Taking the high road and just letting it go is certainly hard, but in my opinion it would have been the better way to go if the goal here is to help the board thrive.

I hope this will be taken as respectful and with a desire to be constructive, because that is my wish.  I honestly would not post otherwise.  I'm not really that interested in fanning any flames.  Anybody is free to disagree with me and I won't be upset.  I just want to say that this kind of thing, personally, where it appears to me that someone in a position of power is going to extraordinary lengths to "call out" people who post here who were expressing opinions on a different website, doesn't make me particularly feel comfortable contributing on this board.  Just my own reaction, to which I am entitled; please take it as such.

Beach Boys Britain, Adam, I posted the direct link to the conversation so you can click on it and read it.

Some of the loudest posters calling for respectful behavior and more respectful personal interaction on this forum all this week were at the same time ripping people apart on another Beach Boys forum, and how is that acceptable?

What is sad is that mods tolerate the endless drivel from two posters and allow them to disrupt thread after thread.
That Andrew Hickey came up with a solution off his own back should be commended.

So what's the problem, then? Use it, problem solved.


Exactly. For free? All manner of endless hell from rules lawyers and backseat drivers, blegh. For no money. Yeah, what a great deal.

So the rules of Smiley Smile now extend to all other forums ? There's this thing called "freedom of speech".

Right. If anyone needs the help of a program or a device to ignore something they don't like, there it is. Solved.

Andrew, nobody is trying to take away your freedom of speech. But it's a bit rich to bitch, is all. C'mon, just flip it around and imagine if these guys were talking about you that way. Nobody comes out of this looking very good, and if Andrew #2 figured out a way to blot out those blemishes that torment you, use it in good health!

I get it that you don't like SB and OSD, but targeting Billy and GF over it seems a bit much.

I am using it. No more  :woot :woot, #notthebeachboys, myKe luHv sucks and daft accusations of AGD being Mike's online PR manager for this guy.

Well spoken Adam. While some of the things said in that thread might sting some here, mods especially, there also seems to be a lot in it that might be learned from, and used to help fix some of the ongoing problems that many have identified.

And surely the best place to respond to things isn't here, on Smiley, but on that board on which they appeared. Reposting them is actually repeating the slander and any court would see it as such.

Whenever this board is down, there's usually a thread on BBB notifying and commenting on the fact. I, for one, regard it as the place BBs fans go when this place isn't available (no disrespect at all Val!). The fact that it grew into what it did indicates that perhaps the problems here have grown and people don't feel comfortable discussing them here any more. Which needs some reflection.

Surely this thread now belongs in the Sandbox?

Does it work if they are quoted by other people? That might be a good incentive not to quote those guys, then.

Firstly, opening a locked thread expressly to do this is... a very odd thing to do. It's also very poor nettiquette. Secondly, I've had much worse said about me, on assorted forums over the years (a certain bass player spring to mind), and can't recall it scarring me permanently (other here may disagree  :) ): if anyone is really that thinned skinned, should they be a part of a forum such as this ? Thirdly, and in my eyes most importantly, I have not targeted Billy anywhere in those posts, unless you count mentioning he had RL problems that understandably distracted him from SS targeting. He's as good a friend as anyone I've never met in the flesh can be and my heart is breaking for him in his current tribulations. No-one should have to go through all he and his family has done these last few years.

Yeah, it was somebody else in that thread doing so -- it was painful to decipher! That formatting is like some terrible 1997 Internet flashback. Still, both of them have been getting more than their share of "criticism" the past few weeks and surely that's enough for now, more than enough to learn an important lesson or something?

I don't know if linking all this shittalking from a public forum is a huge breach of anything, it would've come up on another thread I'm sure. All the talk of cliques seemed ridiculous when the cliques are all a-clashin'. Probably best to lock this sh*t and walk away whistling. Either that or do that knife fight thing.

"Viggie sucks and i'm willing to fight about it!"

"HANDLERS!"

(slash slash)

Yeah, Andrew wasn't targeting me. Only one who seemed to be was this beachball dude.

So which banned poster with a considerable grudge is that, then? Enter and sign in, please!

Nope, but the quoted  text is small enough not to be immediately legible, at least to my dimming eyes... and I was probably the first here to use it, as Mr. Hickey sent me the link in private before going public. It's an absolute Godsend.

Thank you Billy.

How about the rules of practicing what you - specifically - preach?

Have I gone around throwing dirt on your name and reputation to multiple boards and to who knows how many people read what you've been writing? What you've done for the past weeks here on Smiley and as I found out tonight elsewhere on BB's boards has been to throw sh*t on my name and reputation, and I won't stand for it any longer. I get a chance to defend myself.

Why is this being done? Because two posters you've been told to ignore by multiple mods on multiple occasions have not been banned despite your requests to have them banned which have been coming in since 2014. Then it was blame all the ills of this forum on two posters. Then it was blame the moderating, and in particular one moderator who you put the target on his back and assign the blame, and have others saying it too. Only it won't stick. Facts can be tricky that way, as you know.

Now it's taking your charges to other forums and spreading all that personal stuff against me to other places where I'm not even involved, but which other fans read.

Are you proud of that?

I'd feel less than proud if you post here about respecting other posters and posting respectfully, while at the same time you say that here, you're posting to a public forum the kind of bile and outright garbage that is seen in that thread from the Britain board.


How in the hell can you write with any conscience when you were trying to discredit and basically slander me on another BB's forum, and at this point who knows where else and to who else you've been saying this stuff.

Freedom of speech, sure thing. Your behavior suggests that only applies when you approve of what's being said. Some way to run an open forum, isn't it?

And that's it. People don't know what exactly they want, and look for scapegoats to blame and try to take down when they don't get their way. In the process, personal attacks and lies are acceptable toward that goal of getting exactly what you want. That's what a board should be?

At least be honest, Andrew, if being respectful isn't going to happen.

And where were you to defend a friend who was being attacked and lied about? Silent.

It seemed more like a potshot than anything. Just caught me by surprise, especially hinting at something almost 20 years ago while I was in college, some of which wasn't even by me in the first place (long story...needless to say, NEVER use 'keep me signed in' on a public computer)

I'll cherry pick part of Adam's measured, sensible post (emphasis mine):


Exactly: to concoct a dubious simile, imagine going to dinner with your new partner's parents for the first time and it's evident from the start that their father is simply a complete fool. Do you tell everyone at the table... or get back tot he pub and tell everyone there ?

Exactly.

 Respectfully, this isn't your conversation.

So Andrew Doe gets to treat people like sh*t, be disrespectful, try to evade the rules of the board, try to destroy people and intimidate other posters, lie openly about things he wasn't even involved in and knows nothing about regarding the board's operations, and at the same time go around lecturing everyone else here about being respectful, enforcing and following the rules, and getting mods in place to do the necessary work, which must mean what Andrew would like to see done...

That's what the consensus wants?

Consider if the rules were followed as everyone is calling for them to be, Andrew would have been banned for that third and final time back in the spring. But he got a free pass. There, I said it. Maybe he's forgotten...and maybe, there really are two sets of rules for this board. Andrew has been a beneficiary of that, and still insists on trying to destroy people he doesn't want around.

Or shouldn't we go there, Andrew?

I'm very torn on this...on one hand, I think there's some hashing out that really needs to be done. Okay, that's an understatement. On the other hand though...I'm not so sure this shouldn't be in the Sandbox, since this is not a band issue at all.

Course, the LAST time I moved a thread like this to the sandbox, people bitched. I locked it because of the nastiness, people bitched. While I left it open, people bitched. Can't win for losing.

Oh, and for the record, it was NOT me who moved rab's farewell post to the Sandbox. Wasn't GF either.

And that conversation was raging for a week before I or Billy even knew about it, or what was being said, and you said nothing to defend your friend against the false charges because the person making them was making your own points and playing your hand for you. That's real honor, there. No, hold the sarcasm, it's selfishness and disrespect.

And if this eyesore of a thread were to disappear entirely? It is an option. Just my two eurocents...

I respect those who respect me, the other posters, and the board in general... which is the vast majority of folk here. There's a lot of good, good folk here who are growing increasingly concerned about this board, but those concerns are not being addressed. On getting the notification that this thread had been unlocked, I was hoping it was to address the problem. Disappointingly, not the case.

And if someone were lying and spreading garbage about you going on several weeks, John, you'd just shrug it off and say "oh, that's ok, no worries?" How would you moderate it? Or deal with it in general?

If we're going to make post after post about being more respectful to others, then start doing it. If someone is going to make these posts here while at the same time trying to tear people down on other forums, then those people being torn down deserve a say as well. And it's been going on too long around here that certain people are doing it and getting away with it, while lecturing others on doing the respectful thing. Want to fix the board? That's a start.

I'm talking about the brief conversation between Billy & myself just now, as quoted above. Nothing to do with the thread on another board. You're arguing the wrong point, again.

I sense my presence here, on this thread, isn't going to help the cause at all, not to mention being tedious for the others, so if you want to discuss any further topics raised here, please PM me.

Here's the thing, and I'll try to make it as quick as possible because I should've been in bed a couple of hours ago...after everything is said that needs to be said in this thread (why the f*** did that have to rhyme :lol )...can we PLEASE go back to talking about the band? Let everyone say what they need to say, get everything off their chests...and then never again go crazy on each other (regardless of who started what)? Pipe dream, I know, but one that holds a lot of appeal to me.

Well said GF! The hypocrisy is pretty incredible!

If people like Andrew and whoever beachball2 might be are going to do as cowardly and as gutless a thing as talk that much sh*t about me on another forum, base the claims on either lies or misunderstandings, and basically try to attack me and discredit me (and my name) in a position where I cannot defend myself, I;m going to take it to an open forum and demand not only the chance to defend myself, but also a chance to have it all in the open.

No, I will NOT take it to PM's, Andrew, because this has to be in the open. YOU chose to talk sh*t about me on another fan forum, YOU chose to go on this crusade of yours that apparently included telling a number of people how lousy I was and using lies or misinformation to do it, YOU chose to conveniently forget or just not tell everyone reading here that you've been that third ban away from a lifetime ban for at least a year and have gotten a free pass on that point to allow you to still be here...

And you blame ME for the ills of the board? No. Won't work that way. If you wanted to call me out, you chose to do it in the most cowardly way, thinking I either wouldn't find out or wouldn't know it was happening. But I did find out, and now I get a chance to set the record straight. A fair trade off.

This will not get hidden in PM's. You went after me on another board with that kind of talk, I'll answer the charges in the open.

So what, you think you are above criticism as a mod?

I'm up for that, as is any reasonable poster here. But taking your offer of "say it now, then bury it", concisely:

- there's a problem with disruptive posts, and disruptive posters which needs to be addressed...

- there's a need for an ignore button but I'm told that's technically impossible, so The Hickey Script is your friend...

- there's a need for firm - not draconian - moderation, across the board...

- the board rules might be updated, refined and added to.

I'm done.

Been up for two days, and gonna head to bed, but real quick


That is already something being discussed. I've been thinking about that for a long time.

If I thought I was, then I'd be banning people left and right for disagreeing with me or challenging as some in this thread and now on other forums try to suggest I do or have done to people. Which is a complete lie, and for which there is no evidence or proof to back up such a claim.

So: Criticism is fine. But I won't stand for liars. I won't have cowards trash me on other forums without a chance to respond. I also won't stand for people making claims about what the mods did or didn't do that are anything but the truth.

I wasn't the one going around talking sh*t about someone here on other public Beach Boys forums because they didn't do what I asked them to do. That's for Andrew and whoever beachball2 might be to answer for, because they chose to do that. I did not. While all that was going on this week, I didn't post at all.

Nice people, right? Is that what the consensus wants?

So...

How about dem Beach Boys, huh ?

I can only picture you gazing at yourself in a mirror as you wrote this.....

Disruptive posters as in those who don't agree with your opinions and conduct.

Firm Moderation as in Mods who let you do whatever you want.

You made your choice, Andrew. Maybe you shouldn't have tried to trash me on the Britain board and wherever else you were talking that kind of garbage about me (and to whoever you were talking it to) and actually talked about the Beach Boys instead.

If you're not really in this to talk about the Beach Boys and bring everyone together and eliminate the divisions between the fan bases, then you should consider giving what you've been lecturing others about a try for yourself. It's a better way.

Start with respecting other posters and board members, and other fans in general. That's a great start.

What lies has Andrew said about you? He's openly criticised you for taking no stand on OSD's constant threadcrapping.

Ask him.

Not at present, but that'll be in v0.2. Don't expect that for another couple of weeks though -- I'm planning on doing an update when I'm at my in-laws' for Xmas and need to escape.

And just to clarify, changing user name won't affect it, because it works by user ID, not user name. And while as it's set up by default it only blocks those two users, because they're the two I saw more complaints about than any other, it's easy to alter it to block whoever you want (I give instructions, using myself as an example for anyone who wants to block me, in the blog post linked in my sig).

Like a family...getting this pecking order in order is a tough thing.  Who gets that alpha wolf spot seems to be part of the problems. I enjoy reading all the posts.  Thanks to all that have shared info .  If we happen to cross paths, a handshake or hug would hopefully be on the plate.

Or we can have a nice "Male Ego" singsong!

Hell, some of us routinely get much worse treatment in your average Mike interview or C50 discussion than anything written or quoted in this thread.

How about we all try to be more respectful of each other.  (Tiny Tim enters stage left) "God bless us, every one!"

Andrew Doe is cancerous.

I have received some of his manipulative PMs, trying to push me in the direction he wants. I've talked to others who have received similar messages, as well as those who have recurved threatening messages.

All of this is him being manipulative and horrible, raking GFs name across the coals because he seems to be one of the only people here who understands the extent of AGDs bullying. Anyone who's been paying attention should be able to see this.

I've gotten PM s from him.




And they were very informative and helpful, answering questions I'd had on this board. No manipulation to speak of. Guess I'm not cool enough to be in his underhanded band of goons supposedly vying for a takeover. What a shame.

Nothing to hide, huh?  ::)

Ditto. Only it was just the one PM. Indeed, most informative and helpful.

Or....y'know...wanting to settle a private dispute privately and not clog up a thread with dirty laundry. The hypocrisy among some of you here is crazy. So it's totally damning and horrible to criticize someone yet grandstanding and encouraging a witchhunt on this forum is ok?

Same here - always informative, sometimes revealing (in a good way - no photos!) though we've recently moaned together about the state of the nation here; in fact in recent weeks I've had more PMs from several posters on that topic, which is a new thing for me.

Never anything manipulative or "cancerous" though. Just people sharing similar views.

That said, this thread has become far more personal than any Personal Message I've ever received from anyone.

As for ignoring it, I find that difficult, like I find it difficult to rubberneck road accidents as I drive past, or naked ladies who appear on my TV screen unexpectedly. It's human nature.

I will only say that moderating a message board is a difficult task indeed. It demands a lot of self-control and balance. Guitarfool seems like a great guy, his posts are well-informed and I've learned a big deal reading them. Nevertheless, he has often showed an obsessive quality, an ever-present tendency to take things personally and not being able to let go. The latter traits are a hinder to any moderation attempt, as he often ends up in the center of the mayhem he's supposed to put a stop to.

Re-opening a thread in order to channel one's own grudges has nothing to with the activity of a moderator. It is against building a peaceful environment and mature discussion. It is all about using the tools a moderator has access to in order to make a personal statement.

Moderators have crossed the line and paid for it in the past. I think we're witnessing yet another line-crossing.
And it is doing this board no good.

Those are pretty strong words, Woodstock.  When people (especially young people who did not grow up contemporaneous to the music) sign on, with a limited context (I am not being ageist.) and just deal with the music, it is a great thing, but historic context with regard to art and music and philosophy, go hand in hand.  The great salons in the early 19th century France had musicians, artists, novelists and philosophers, all of whom influenced each other.  George Sand and Chopin, just as an example.  

Lurking on this high voltage board for a while before signing in and posting might be a good idea to learn who the "players" are and how to deal with them. Being polite is first.  Some do not "suffer fools gladly."  Nor should they.  There are some amazingly talented people here and it is a privilege to listen to them.  

But, Andrew and I have gone "ten rounds" and in communicating with him, my experience is that Andrew responds well to well-sourced information, and points that are backed up with evidence.  This forum is not for the weak-kneed.  I have no idea what the exchange was, and it isn't my business, but realizing that he is an "author" - and I don't have his writings, but find his website pretty reliable and I do respect his scholarship.  

As always, for me, I strive not to get caught up in the factions on this board... The overall big picture of the music legacy is just too important to me.  :thewilsons

I hate to throw him under the bus, because I do agree GF is a pretty ok guy from what Ive seen. Like AGD, Ive gotten a very nice, thorough and informative PM from him with some of the best discussion of SMiLE Ive seen. I dont mean this as a personal barb, but Ive been shaking my head reading these past 2 pages of posts. I was very happy to see my criticisms on the sandbox answered and this thread reopened, only to be crushed that it was only to complain about borderline-irrelevant posts from another forum and this unwarranted public shaming of someone who seems to me a very valuable member here. Lay off AGD. So what if he aired some grievances with others? That is his right and should not be dragged onto the forum for everyone to be expected to piss on him for. Nothing he said was slanderous or personal as far as I can see. He has legitimate criticisms with how this board is moderated--and as far as I can tell, so do most of us--and he's said the same here as well as there. He's offered to sort the issue out in private and a mod of all people is insisting it be aired in public. This is not professional behavior, it makes the entire board look life a hateful, trashy, uninviting place and its not necessary. It should be the job of the mods to keep things like that off the site and handle them as gracefully as possible, not dive right in and be a driving force of drama. The rest of us should not be made to pick sides; if his opinion which hes entitled to hurt your feelings, talk to him in private, but you have no right to bring it to the forefront here and expect us to flame him for your sake. I hate to say it, GF, but the irony is your actions these past 2 pages have only proven that a lot of what was said in those posts do in fact have a kernel of truth to them if not more.

Im sure Im gonna get banned now, or accused of slander, or some other ridiculousness, but it needs to be said.

Andrew, fight your battles in the open so people can see them and stop hiding behind private messages. Or are you afraid of exposing what has been going on and is still going on?

Nothing you say has ever made sense, sorry

Hes pathetic like that. And like I've said, cancerous, and mean to people.

Wow, what a pile-on. I can't believe you guys are painting GF as some unbalanced thin-skinned vicious control freak. If that were the case half of you would be banned from this little brouhaha. Are you? No. He's just defending himself, explaining his side, highlights what he thinks - fairly reasonably - is hypocrisy from the other side. Nobody looks very honorable here. Can you guys maybe ease off now? You've all gotten your say and taken your shots. Recycled months worth of grudges... I don't think he deserves it, he's contributed reams of text to this site and gloriously geeky and intricate recording information and production minutiae. I love reading that stuff! It's wonderful having someone with a knack for technical details and communicating decently about them to non-musos. He bends over backwards to explain his reasoning and engages with disagreements in a way I'd never fucking bother with. I'd throw my hands up and walk away. He's a good guy and you're pushing him, prodding him, trying to get him to quit. I mean, that much is obvious.

You'd feel pretty defensive too if a small group of people were badmouthing you all over the net and trying to have you replaced. Ultimately, over what? That posts making fun of Mike Love are allowed to be up? That's the great cause? To purge SB/OSD and pave the way for The Great Mike Love Q&A of 2016? C'mon, we know how that'll go. India, solo album, I haven't watched Love & Mercy yet, Beach Boys voted over Beatles in Melody Maker, etc.

Enough. Stop piling on. All the mods here have done their best dealing with all of us infantile, wisecracking, pompous jerks and rules lawyers. It's easy to make mistakes sometimes, to rub people the wrong way. We've got a lot of nice people here, but a lot of utter bastards. I know, I'm a bastard too. But Craig? He doesn't deserve this at ALL from you guys. Just load up Hickey's thing and filter out the "trolls." Done.

Andrew can come clean anytime if he chooses. Despite what some are saying to defend him, despite the latest attempt to find a scapegoat and scrub that person or persons off the board, Andrew knows what he did and others know too. It's his call if he wants to continue on this mission of his, or just man up and come clean. You can't hide the truth forever.

So again, was all that calling for respectful interactions among board members a joke, was it complete crap, or what? No one with a sense of morality or even a sense of right or wrong yells from the highest rooftop in town how much we need to respect one another, then proceeds to act like a coward and start ripping people apart on other forums.

If that's the kind of board you want, you know now who holds the spare set of keys. .

ontor - there is a executive board that controls this forum.  GF is not alone.  I hope you are not so audacious as to include me in what you've said.  I support GF, always have, and we are lucky to have his expertise, and I have learned much from him. I enjoy his posts.  We don't always agree but through "adult" discussion reach common ground.  And are not polarized.

As a board, there needs to be enforcement of the rules of the road.  We all agreed to the rules-of-the-road when we joined.  Why bother to have rules if they are not enforced?

Those of us who make every effort to abide by the rules, whether it be posters or band members, and "disagree without attacking" - and are punished indirectly by having to tolerate this bad behavior.  It is driving good posters like "rab" off the forum at a time when such good things are happening in the BB/BW sphere, such as the L & M movie, the activism that is emanating from it and the final recognition of how great this music always was when it was trashed continuously in the late 60's and early 70's.  

Here is the 100% truth. Andrew has received and has continued to post under what amounts to a free pass, a look-the-other-way free pass. It's been hanging over the board for several years. If another poster had violated board rules as he did just this past year, they'd be banned for life because his account had already been banned twice before, because of the board's three-strikes rule for bans.

So when someone who has somehow been skating by on that free pass starts accusing moderators of playing favorites, issuing free passes to excuse bad behavior, and turning a blind eye toward the rule-breaking, it's more than a tad hypocritical bordering on complete B.S., wouldn;t you say?

Again, Andrew can step up and admit what's been going on, or he can continue sending PM's and hiding behind those, and trrashing me to other boards and forums instead.

All i have is the truth, and that free ban pass is only the tip of the iceberg.

If it didn't reach a point where I was personally attacked on another forum and repeatedly targeted here in an attempt to get rid of me and clear the path according to Andrew's wishes, NONE of this would have happened. Andrew chose to do this.

if the board rules were followed to the letter, he'd be gone as of earlier this year. But he's still here.

  :wave

Weird how much PM stuff is going on  :o ...I actually think OSD would be tolerable on his own (at least he is original), it's the pointless cheer-leading after every post that does my head in.

P.S AGD is kind of a jerk  ;D  but provides great knowledge for the board. GF is a good mod (though I really don't see much to take offense from re: those BB Britain posts). Honestly from the outside (and never having received any pm's re this stuff) the board is in good shape apart from the constant boring derailing of threads regarding Mike.

Real sad thing about this is that we have two seriously knowledgeable members whose posts I usually admire (except at the moment), but the argument has brought out all the usual parasites who contribute f*** all to this board in terms of actual BB knowledge but who get their jollies from stirring. Bring back Mikie.

GF - most posters have absolutely no knowledge about what goes on behind the scenes, especially if some of the honored guests, etc., hold a certain status as an author, reviewer, promoter or run a BB/BW music-related forum.  

Most who come here just want to be able to discuss the music and delight that it has lasted as long as we have in life.  :lol  

It is becoming like a soap opera, airing the "dirty laundry."  If stuff happens behind-the-scenes then it should be handled behind-the-scenes, as adults or find someone to maybe mediate the dispute so we can have some modicum of peace and not lose this great knowledge bank.  

Most posters don't care about this level of behind-the-scenes stuff and have no control over it but those who conform their behavior to the rules, and are turned off by those who brazenly flout the obvious rules (I am not talking about PM's that every poster is not privy to) and frankly make a mockery of having any kind of standards.   Just sayin'  ;)

Exactly this, and Im not too pleased with this talk of "bitching" every time someone dares to criticize the way things are here or say we ought to do better. No one should be made to feel unwanted or like theyre a nuisance for raising issues theyve had--and I think it ought to be the job of the mods to answer those criticisms (assuming theyre fair/reasonable) and not brush it off as "bitching" and throw it back at us to 'man up' and "is that the kinda board you want, where we police people?" It just feels like victim blaming, shifting responsibility and creating an even more unwelcoming atmosphere.

This witch hunt against AGD feels like still more diversion from the original beefs talked about here. First its this off-topic lecture about PMs when people are unanimously calling for the banning of OSD (and again, personally I dont know enough about him to say thats warranted, but it seems to be what people want) and now its taking off-topic posts from another forum and bringing them here for us all to point fingers and shame. Im just gonna say it--I think *some* not all, but *some* of those outside forum posts raised a legit point of contention, that being the mods should decidedly NOT be thin-skinned or involve themselves in personal tiffs. They should be as neutral as possible, and deal with personal drama by being mediators or else telling the involved parties to take it outside. How ironic that a poster did EXACTLY THAT only for their outside communications to be brought here and try to turn us against him. Nothing AGD said was inflammatory and much of it has been proven true by this overreaction and insistence on a public brawl over it. Its an absolute sh*t show, no other way to say it, and it should not be something a mod of all people takes part in. I want to know where this passionate response from a mod was when I was being openly harassed on here. I wanna know why fighting with AGD is higher priority than answering the will of the posters. Im not interested in watching a public takedown of someone for having the audacity to think things are slipping here. Personally, I agree, and Ive said as much here as well as among other people outside the forum. Are my outside correspondences going to be posted here one day too to be gawked at and used to condemn me? Again, the irony is you consider this slander GF, but your reaction actually proves that *some* of those criticisms do in fact have merit to them.

Now, Im not trying to shame anyone myself. And I too realize what a thankless task being a mod is. But neither you nor anyone else here should be above criticism, and I think for a mod to take a personal fight public and encourage posters to take part is about as worthy of criticism as anything I can think of. Youre always asking "what kinda forum we want this to be" and I think Ive outlined decently well what I would expect. AGD's points sound pretty reasonable to me too. Honestly tho, Im kinda starting to have my fill of this place myself either way. We just lost a valued poster and now some of you seem determined to drive another one away over petty personal squabbles. We have a significant number of posters expressing discontent who are not being heard, and one or two troublemakers running around with impunity. We have people admitting en mass theyve felt unwelcome here and dont post as often as they would because of the toxic atmosphere. We had to have a member finally institute an ignore button that shouldnt have been necessary and/or shouldve been done officially ages ago. And what's being done to improve the undeniably unfriendly nature of this board? Very little that I can see. In fact, I have to say, you seem to be making things worse whether you mean to or not.

Im sorry to have to say unkind things about you, and I hope you dont take it too personally. Im not trying to turn the witchhunt around on you so much as stop it altogether.

Should the rules of the board be strictly enforced across the board, or are some here comfortable with sets of rules being bent and shaped specific to apply to certain posters over others?

I ask because if the people calling for the rules to be enforced more definitively really want that, by rights and according to rules Andrew should have been banned some time ago, and as a third ban it would have been a lifetime ban. But he's still here.

This isn't the issue as most here perceive it. Please address the issues.

Things guitarfool has complained about in this thread:
AGD saying things in private, where other people can't see them.
AGD saying things in public, where other people can see them.

Neither of these things seem, to me, to have anything to do with anyone else on the board. If AGD's been saying things in PMs that go against the board rules, that's between him, the people he's PMd, and the moderators. If he's been saying things that guitarfool objects to on another board, that's between him, guitarfool, and the people on the other board.

Same rules for everyone IMO. Presumably you can be 100% certain that PMs being forwarded have not been changed in any way? as I think someone said earlier that mods do not have access to pm's.

Instead of all the bellyaching, why don't all the mods get together, create a new set of rules or rehash/refresh the old ones with a clear system of warnings - a new baseline, if you like - and go from there. Start off by closing this, because it's going around in circles and the whining isn't befitting anyone with intelligence and, as I said, it's feeding the parasites.

Then that's on you as a mod, it wasn't deemed ban worthy then so why are you making a drama of it now? You are still ducking the issue as to why two posters are given free reign to threadcrap on every topic.

The issue is that going back some time now, Andrew has been hammering away at enforcing the rules, while at the same time acting under what adds up to a different set of rules for everyone than existed for him and his behavior. Anyone who gets banned three times is gone for good. What happened earlier this year was a clear violation of board rules, by Andrew, yet he's still posting here.

So - do we want the rules strictly enforced for everyone, or don't we? I won't sit back and remain silent as someone who has been ducking the rules goes around to multiple websites spreading bile against me while at the same time flaunting and skating by on the actual rules he's lecturing everyone about following and enforcing.

Just because you don't see this stuff happening doesn't mean it's not happening - or that it didn't happen.

Should the rules be followed across the board, or just for people you don't want to see posting here?

Who said anything about PM's?

You are still ducking the issue.

These posts are very wordy and not very interesting.     Because this stuff is personal and not about anything of interest to most people.  

I agree with both of these. Personal squabbles should stay personal and be settled thru PMs or outside the board.

I say fine tune the rules and actually enforce them equally. If at all possible, an ignore button. Maybe start everyone with a clean slate but hold them and everyone else to a higher--and uniform--standard going forth. Simple.

To be fair, I think that's *now* a solved issue. I think most of those who are bothered by those posters have downloaded the ignore script. I suspect that once they notice that they're not provoking apoplexy in anyone any more, they'll either stop being annoying or (one can hope) start contributing more sensibly.

There is now an ignore function. Install it, and use it.

Install the ignore function and use it.

I have and I am. It doesn't alter the fact that complaints towards OSD and SmileBrian were barely addressed.

For me... frankly, no I don't. I don't think the job of moderators is to strictly enforce an unbending set of rules, but to use their own judgment about what makes for a healthy community. That will *usually* involve sticking to agreed rules, but would allow for some flexibility in both directions -- both banning (or warning or taking other appropriate action) people who haven't broken the letter of any rules, but who keep breaking the spirit of them, and giving leeway to people who break the rules but who contribute a lot.

+100

Cozies up to a mod at gigs, huh? Pathetic, John.

You were asked but turned the gig down. Now you're doing this?

So someone who blatantly violates the board rules can stay based on what they contribute to the board, does this mean all violations or just a few?

You really want that?

This is going around in circles. Neither party is coming out of this smelling like a well-adjusted rose and you're feeding the idiots who like to pint fingers and be contrary.  Either piss or get off the pot.

Loadsa peoples....AGD's agenda or some such? no?

To John Manning:

If you're comfortable going into the gutter in order to support whatever it is Andrew has been doing and getting away with on this board, that's truly sad.

To get into the issue of "cozying up" to a moderator at a gig in any way is truly pathetic, and you've crossed a line. Is this stuff that you're doing either with or for or in support of Andrew Doe worth it?

If I ever want to know what it feels like to sell one's integrity and decency in the name of destroying other people, I'll know who to send that PM to. And who to copy on it.

Was it worth it?

Just got a little ago, and I see it's the same back-and forth, and I still have one more page to read. So with that in mind, I'm in 100% agreement on this.

The ignore function addressed the concerns, it's available for installation. if people need an online app to ignore something, there it is. Problem solved. When all this gets into trying to destroy someone personally over this stuff and ruin names for whatever goals are in play here, it's another story.

But see, its this kinda double standard that creates an atmosphere of discomfort, not knowing where you stand, "playing favorites" etc. The rules ought to be the same for everyone, not brushed aside when it doesnt affect you but a public shame fest when it does.

Meanwhile you're going to go around in circles rubbing salt in what is effectively, your own wound. Okay, I feel sorry for you, but is it going to go away because you're doing this? Nope. Sort it out with the other mods and set out VERY CLEARLY a new set of rules to adhere to and make sure they're followed by one and all and stop these ludicrous threads that exist only to underline that Mike is a dick because you know how they always end up.

Exactly, they should be uniform guidelines that affect all members equally. I agree.

The rules should be followed.

So should the calls for respect and decency toward other people have been heeded prior to the very same people making those calls deciding to go on a public shame fest, and not even have the guts to do it here where the people in the firing line had a chance to respond...and this went on for a week.

If you want that kind of behavior on the board, like I said, you know where to go.

I was asked in a PM, and I understood the contents of such should remain private.

That gig is a far cry from the gig mentioned in the post you chose to copy here from another board. I assume you had similar permission for that, too?

This is toe-curling stuff.

Are you going to address the allegation that you and OSD are pals in the physical world? And explain why that might not affect your judgement as a mod, when so many board members are requesting action over his constant trolling?

Smilin Ed, I'll ask you in all seriousness, and with an eye toward suggesting how to respond in the future. The terms people posting here found offensive were written by the author of that published article, it was part of his piece. When it became an issue, people's message headers began to change to take out what they found offensive - you don't need a moderator to do that.

So this article rubs people the wrong way, but what would a moderator do if the article is posted with a link for discussion here among fans, and that's exactly what the fans here were doing: Reading, discussing, and debating. The first post in the thread was a link to a published article, not a blog or a fan essay. The title of the thread was a phrase coined by the author of that article, and when it began to rub people the wrong way, it was changed to something acceptable.

Should the moderators lock or delete a thread any time a published article critical of a band member is posted to this board, if the results are as predictable as you're saying?

I'm asking in all seriousness.

You'll have to clarify this post please. Parts of it I think I can get a vague handle on but overall I haven't a clue where you're coming from.

AGD was very upfront about his grievances on this board, this thread in fact. When his and our grievances were not addressed, it was his right to vent outside the board about it. I've personally done the same--not on that forum, but to friends in this board I know outside it. I'm of the opinion that what someone says outside these walls shouldn't be a focus. If anyone else took outside correspondences and posted them en masse for the purpose of starting a public fight, I'd be saying that should be a bannable offense. And for a mod to do so is a whole other level of bad. It's your job to keep order and limit drama--not bring it to the forefront and involve us in your personal beef with AGD. As far as I can see, he's broken no rules, you're just furious at him and acting like that counts. The only person who debatably has is OSD and you seem determined to deflect the growing discontent against him at al l costs against all reason. Anytime there's a call for action you throw the decision/responsibility on us in a rhetorical, condescending manner and refuse to take action.

From the rules:

You have no right to address that kind of question to anyone, not only will I not dignify it by addressing it, but shame on you and whoever is doing this with you for thinking bringing someone's personal life or whatever they do off the board has any bearing on what happens here.

Sad, and pathetic.

This is the board people want?

Now John Manning, who knows best what the board needs, puts in place a challenge where information he got from someone about who I may or may not have seen at a live concert is in some way relevant to anything going on here.

That's what you want? See John Manning.

John, who have you been cozying up to this past year? is that in fair play as well, or is it just the mods? Who have the other mods been friends with, should we ask them too? let's do it.

Pathetic.

For some moments in life there are no words, nor emoticons

Okay, I need to say something...going to make this clear that this is being posted from myself as'Billy Castillo the human being' and not as my position as a mod.

1) The ignore function is going to solve a lot of problems going forward

2). The board rules do in fact need to be updated, and I'm working on it as we speak. Or type. Whatever. As it stands, there is too much gray area, and things need to be cut and dried.

3). Everybody needs to be held to the same standard. Regardless of if they're a brand new member, honored guest, me...anybody

4) As much as I despise seeing people go off on each other (as someone once told me here as an insult, I'm as bleeding-heart liberal as is humanly possible), I'm glad we're hashing things out. But I swear to God, after this runs its course in this thread, I better not see this become an issue again from anybody.

5). Speaking JUST for myself, if someone has a problem with ME on how I'm doing my job, PM me. Let me know. I'd appreciate it if it was done in an adult, respectful manner, but whatever. Cause honestly, that's how things should be done. Not posting about how the mods 'suck' in the middle of an otherwise good discussion. Not going to quote directly or mention who said this, but in another thread where there was an actual honest-to-God discussion on an album, somebody actually said something along the lines of 'careful..you're going to get banned for disagreeing with the mods', or other swipes at us. If said poster has ever voiced his/her concerns about the job we're doing, I have *never* gotten any such PM, and I don't think GF or SH have either. So yeah, that comes across more as an attack rather than a valid criticism.

Just my two cents.