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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: “Big Daddy” on November 11, 2015, 09:07:50 AM



Title: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on November 11, 2015, 09:07:50 AM
Please don’t judge me for how I spend my spare time, but I just looked up Rocky Pamplin on copyright.gov and found a record from 2014 of a copyrighted text entitled “Wipeout: Caught in the Undertow of America's Greatest Band” authored by Rocky. I found nothing when I Googled this but presumably this is a manuscript by Rocky about his time with The Beach Boys. Steve Love is also listed as as a rights holder. Very interested in seeing this come out if it isn’t in some form already.

copyright record listed here: http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=636&ti=626,636&Search%5FArg=pamplin&Search%5FCode=NALL&CNT=25&PID=oxWpWdAuMg3Ks5tVyq_zesLrKefs&SEQ=20151111115416&SID=1


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on November 11, 2015, 12:52:28 PM
Steve was talking about it quite a bit a few years back.



335Steve Love on July 14, 2014

Yes, Rocky did indeed knock Carl to the floor in Melbourne, Australia in March I978, my last tour with the band. Rocky has written a book titled WIPEOUT in which he devotes an entire chapter to what we participants in that meeting in Mike Love’s suite with David Frost and others refer to as “the heroin incident.” Carl was drunk and surly and made the mistake of saying “f*** you, Rocky” in front of a roomful of men. Rocky wasn’t going to take that and leapt to his feet, bounded across the room and socked Carl hard in the jaw. The back of Carl’s head banged against the wall and he fell to the floor. BTW, it was the most picture perfect haymaker I ever saw. It was a stroke of luck that Carl’s jaw was not broken. As for the other incident you refer to, I have no knowledge of what transpired there.

Not only was I NOT the guy who karate chopped Dennis in the throat in 1974 at the Red Onion restaurant in Redondo Beach, CA, I’m the guy who knocked out the bouncer who struck a barefoot Dennis who attempted to push past the doorman to get to the dance floor. This incident is recounted in detail in Rocky’s forthcoming book WIPEOUT in the chapter titled “A Broken Spirit.”

As for Rocky and Stan beating Dennis up on Super Bowl Sunday in January 1980, Dennis was endangering Brian and had to be stopped. Although they were no longer in his employ as bodyguard-handlers, they loved Brian and wanted to protect him from his reckless brother. I don’t think they regret their actions; in fact, I think they think it was a well-deserved intervention.

Rocky is seeking a literary agent to represent him. His intriguing book is complete, has 36 chapters and runs about 300 pages. WIPEOUT is a most entertaining rock-and-roll memoir. If any literary agent out there is interested, please get in touch with me and I’ll connect you with Rocky.

WIPEOUT is Rocky’s story, told in his own inimitable style. It is replete with rather racy recollections of movie and rock stars, rich people, and royalty. It is a story of deceit and betrayal, the excesses of ego, where greed and jealousy run riot and family members are fair game. Part memoir and part expose, this is a book for the ages. Aloha.

Steve



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: DonnyL on November 11, 2015, 01:05:15 PM
Sounds gross. I sure wouldn't buy that thing.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on November 11, 2015, 01:10:25 PM
It's a shame that these awful, violent people were so often around.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on November 11, 2015, 01:43:01 PM
Hey Rocky...wanta see me pull a rabbit outa my hat?

Oh Bullwinkle THAT trick never works.

Nuthin up my sleeve.

Man!!!  If I'da seen that clown sock Carl like that...he'd have been unable to write even the letter X.  I ain't overly agressive but I have little time for bullies.  Rocky pickin' on Carl.  What a 1/4-man.  And ain't he the semi-stud who was hangin' around Marilyn when Brian was incapacitated? 

What a twerp!!!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on November 11, 2015, 01:53:21 PM
With Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys, there's more than two sides to the story. There's more than two hundred sides to the story. This is one side I'd be interested in reading.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 11, 2015, 02:28:02 PM
If this trash book is released, will Mike Love say it has an "interesting" viewpoint like the Evan Landy interview....


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on November 11, 2015, 02:36:22 PM
With Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys, there's more than two sides to the story. There's more than two hundred sides to the story. This is one side I'd be interested in reading.

I still woulda dropped him right there in his ensuing excrement.  How the 'eff' did he get away with doing that to Carl blinkin' WILSON?  He should simply have done as requested and effed off.  But NO!!!  He had to beat up a pacifist.  What did they have on hand then cheerleaders for security?  Rocky effin Pamplin woulda been a pile of rotting flesh if I'da seen that happen.  Gawd that makes me mad. >:(


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike Garneau on November 11, 2015, 05:40:27 PM
This is one BB related book I would have no interest in looking at, never mind purchasing...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on November 11, 2015, 06:14:03 PM
With Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys, there's more than two sides to the story. There's more than two hundred sides to the story. This is one side I'd be interested in reading.
For me, whoever hit first is on the wrong side every time, in anyone's story.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on November 11, 2015, 06:17:18 PM
If this trash book is released, will Mike Love say it has an "interesting" viewpoint like the Evan Landy interview....

I wouldn't be at all surprised if myKe wrote the forward for this pile of sh*t. ::)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: tpesky on November 11, 2015, 06:42:47 PM
I believe that incident with Carl was the last straw for Al and caused him to change his vote and remove Steve Love as manager..which led Steve to call Al chickensh!t or something like that.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lonely Summer on November 11, 2015, 07:26:18 PM
I believe that incident with Carl was the last straw for Al and caused him to change his vote and remove Steve Love as manager..which led Steve to call Al chickensh!t or something like that.
I sure hope so. Al is a peaceful guy, I doubt he enjoyed having these baboons around.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on November 11, 2015, 08:18:52 PM
At least we know now that Steve didn't punch Dennis in the throat, resulting in his increased raspiness, as has been suggested...but rather, that it was in fact someone else who did so, and Steve and Dennis were on the same side of that particular fight.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 11, 2015, 10:46:58 PM
This is one BB related book I would have no interest in looking at, never mind purchasing...

Oh, I'd read it, purely to be able to rip the righteous sh*t out of it. Buy it ? Nah... unless it was on Amazon UK at 1p.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on November 11, 2015, 11:04:36 PM
I'd get a copy, purely to soak it in my own waste before sending it off for an autograph.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on November 11, 2015, 11:32:23 PM
Sounds like a real muckraker. I'd only buy it if it was going really cheap.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on November 12, 2015, 12:10:05 AM
Gosh, in order to generate exposure for the potential publication of his book, perhaps Rocky would like to join the Smiley Smile board so as to engage in dialogue with the members here.  >:D >:D



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on November 12, 2015, 12:20:53 AM
Better yet, Steve Love! While we're hoping for Dishonored Guests.

 Maybe it's like Derek Smart, and he can be summoned if you chant his name three times.

STEVE LOVE STEVE LOVE STEVE LOVE.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: JK on November 12, 2015, 03:26:08 AM
If the composers of The Surfaris' hit object to Rocky's title, LL Cool J has a good alternative: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vimZj8HW0Kg



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: HeyJude on November 12, 2015, 06:21:38 AM
I dunno, it’s at least *interesting* that it appears Steve and Pamplin (assuming Steve’s reports of Pamplin’s words are correct) aren’t particularly denying several key stories that paint them in a rather poor light. Like the “Heroes and Villains” book by Gaines (which was also heavy on Steve Love/Rocky Pamplin sagas), it might be a sticky, icky book to read through with hyperbole galore, but might have some core stories and facts that aren’t found anywhere else.

Even if you’re inclined to not immediately be defensive of Carl being punched, even if Carl was just some random guy, Pamplin *still* comes across like a douche in the story. Maybe he was a big tough guy, but punching and knocking out some guy who’s drunk and strung out on heavy drugs isn’t the most challenging thing in the world.

Pamplin being taken seriously also wasn’t done any favors by the photo spread in the Gaines book. I still find it comical that a Beach Boys biography could contain the “safe” half of a Playgirl centerfold.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on November 12, 2015, 08:11:40 AM

Even if you’re inclined to not immediately be defensive of Carl being punched, even if Carl was just some random guy, Pamplin *still* comes across like a douche in the story. Maybe he was a big tough guy, but punching and knocking out some guy who’s drunk and strung out on heavy drugs isn’t the most challenging thing in the world.


Not defending Pamplin's actions by any means, but Carl's behaviour had just nearly tanked an entire tour. To then get drunk and abusive when confronted may have been the proverbial straw.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: MarcellaHasDirtyFeet on November 12, 2015, 08:13:03 AM
Oh, I would buy this book in a heartbeat. I loved Heroes & Villains, despite the bits I knew were patently false. But I'm a terrible person, so your mileage may vary. :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on November 12, 2015, 08:20:37 AM
I've read various quotes by the people involved on the various assaults on the Wilsons, and the assailants never seem to get that battery is NEVER OK regardless of how annoyed or angry or whatever you feel regarding someone. They never seem regretful or "I just lost it. It was really terrible of me. I've taken X steps to learn to control my behavior better..." It's always "Carl was rude, so..." "Dennis gave Brian drugs so..." "Your mother undermined my authority and incredibly harsh violent punishment is good for kids so..."
The lack of regret and recognition that battery is wrong IN ANY CASE is what really bothers me.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 12, 2015, 09:00:06 AM
I've read various quotes by the people involved on the various assaults on the Wilsons, and the assailants never seem to get that battery is NEVER OK regardless of how annoyed or angry or whatever you feel regarding someone. They never seem regretful or "I just lost it. It was really terrible of me. I've taken X steps to learn to control my behavior better..." It's always "Carl was rude, so..." "Dennis gave Brian drugs so..." "Your mother undermined my authority and incredibly harsh violent punishment is good for kids so..."
The lack of regret and recognition that battery is wrong IN ANY CASE is what really bothers me.

+1


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jim V. on November 12, 2015, 10:23:33 AM

Even if you’re inclined to not immediately be defensive of Carl being punched, even if Carl was just some random guy, Pamplin *still* comes across like a douche in the story. Maybe he was a big tough guy, but punching and knocking out some guy who’s drunk and strung out on heavy drugs isn’t the most challenging thing in the world.


Not defending Pamplin's actions by any means, but Carl's behaviour had just nearly tanked an entire tour. To then get drunk and abusive when confronted may have been the proverbial straw.

But here's the thing....

The Beach Boys were the employers of these pieces of sh*t. Therefore Rocky Pamplin punched one his employers in the face. So you or he or Steve Love can defend it 'til the cows come home, but what he did ain't right.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on November 12, 2015, 11:04:01 AM
Curious, Steve and Mike are estranged, I believe. But what about Steve and Stan? And Mike and Stan?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on November 12, 2015, 12:00:47 PM

Even if you’re inclined to not immediately be defensive of Carl being punched, even if Carl was just some random guy, Pamplin *still* comes across like a douche in the story. Maybe he was a big tough guy, but punching and knocking out some guy who’s drunk and strung out on heavy drugs isn’t the most challenging thing in the world.


Not defending Pamplin's actions by any means, but Carl's behaviour had just nearly tanked an entire tour. To then get drunk and abusive when confronted may have been the proverbial straw.

But here's the thing....

The Beach Boys were the employers of these pieces of sh*t. Therefore Rocky Pamplin punched one his employers in the face. So you or he or Steve Love can defend it 'til the cows come home, but what he did ain't right.

Highlighted for your convenience.  ;D


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SenorPotatoHead on November 12, 2015, 12:24:26 PM
Might have missed if this was asked thus far, but did Mr. Pablum remain in the employ of the band after this incident? 
This dude and Stain Love sound like bullies and jack axes.  Somebody in that room should have retaliated; a table lamp or some other room furnishing is perfectly acceptable in such circumstances (IMO) to clonk such a creep in the head. 
 :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on November 12, 2015, 12:58:29 PM
Might have missed if this was asked thus far, but did Mr. Pablum remain in the employ of the band after this incident? 

THAT is the question. After Pamplin decked Carl, did Carl's brothers - Brian Wilson AND Dennis Wilson - demand that Pamplin be dismissed?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 12, 2015, 01:55:56 PM
Might have missed if this was asked thus far, but did Mr. Pablum remain in the employ of the band after this incident? 
This dude and Stain Love sound like bullies and jack axes.  Somebody in that room should have retaliated; a table lamp or some other room furnishing is perfectly acceptable in such circumstances (IMO) to clonk such a creep in the head. 
 :)

Did the Carl punching incident happen before or after the infamous drunken Good Vibrations performance (and subsequent apology interview conducted in a hotel)?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jim V. on November 12, 2015, 02:03:12 PM

Even if you’re inclined to not immediately be defensive of Carl being punched, even if Carl was just some random guy, Pamplin *still* comes across like a douche in the story. Maybe he was a big tough guy, but punching and knocking out some guy who’s drunk and strung out on heavy drugs isn’t the most challenging thing in the world.


Not defending Pamplin's actions by any means, but Carl's behaviour had just nearly tanked an entire tour. To then get drunk and abusive when confronted may have been the proverbial straw.

But here's the thing....

The Beach Boys were the employers of these pieces of sh*t. Therefore Rocky Pamplin punched one his employers in the face. So you or he or Steve Love can defend it 'til the cows come home, but what he did ain't right.

Highlighted for your convenience.  ;D


Got it. But if you're not "defending" his actions, then exactly what is the point of pointing out Carl's actions and how they related to the tour? And since Rocky was basically just a goon who was hired to follow Brian, wouldn't that mean whether the tour went off or not wouldn't have any effect on his employment? Therefore, who is he to be punching anybody, especially a principal member of the group who is leading the tour? That would be like me being hired to go on tour with Mike and Bruce's band to make sure Jeff Foskett didn't eat the whole pre-show buffet every night. But then I see Bruce Johnston harassing an Obama supporter because it's their fault he has higher taxes. And I proceed to punch Bruce in the face. That would be me overstepping the bounds of what I was hired to do, and basically disrespecting my employer.

So basically my point is, who gives a sh*t what Carl did on that tour, vis-à-vis Rocky. If Mike Love or the promoter or whoever punched Carl, then I could see the reasoning behind bringing it up. But bringing it up, even if it's not in defense of Rocky sure seems a little curious.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 12, 2015, 02:17:58 PM
I feel like even if the Wilsons complained about Rocky, Mike Love and his goon brothers would have ignored it. The BBs had grown beyond a simple band into a cold calculated business run by Steve Love.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 12, 2015, 02:32:23 PM
The man who, basically, ignored it all and pretty much demanded the tour continue was the promoter - one David P. Frost.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Paul J B on November 12, 2015, 04:41:03 PM
I would not read a tabloid piece of crap by someone that was a big part of the Beach Boys lives let alone a blip in the scheme of things. I didn't even keep my Gains book due to too much nonsense. I'm supposed to give a rats ass about some goof that punched a man 35 years ago that has been dead for 17?! Go back to your tv you are missing the Kardashians.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SenorPotatoHead on November 12, 2015, 04:55:13 PM
I would not read a tabloid piece of crap by someone that was a big part of the Beach Boys lives let alone a blip in the scheme of things. I didn't even keep my Gains book due to too much nonsense. I'm supposed to give a rats ass about some goof that punched a man 35 years ago that has been dead for 17?! Go back to your tv you are missing the Kardashians.

And the names Brian, Dennis and Carl Wilson (and all they accomplished) will stretch into the future, while Ropey Pablum was never really known for anything worth while to begin with and never will be.   In fact, what was this thread about again? 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on November 12, 2015, 05:53:19 PM

That would be like me being hired to go on tour with Mike and Bruce's band to make sure Jeff Foskett didn't eat the whole pre-show buffet every night. But then I see Bruce Johnston harassing an Obama supporter because it's their fault he has higher taxes. And I proceed to punch Bruce in the face.

In reality, I would completely disapprove; in hypothetical-land, this scenario cracks me up.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: jeffh on November 12, 2015, 06:20:55 PM
I'd read it if I could loan it from someone or the library. I'm certainly not going to put money in his pocket.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: RJM on November 12, 2015, 06:42:46 PM
Might have missed if this was asked thus far, but did Mr. Pablum remain in the employ of the band after this incident? 

THAT is the question. After Pamplin decked Carl, did Carl's brothers - Brian Wilson AND Dennis Wilson - demand that Pamplin be dismissed?

They visited Brian in the hospital with the sole purpose of getting their jobs back. Brian told them to piss off.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ChicagoAnn on November 12, 2015, 07:27:46 PM
Gaines quoted Pamplin quite a bit in his book. In almost every quote Pamplin showed himself to be a dull and ugly person. Based alone on his attitude about beating up Dennis, which he seemed to think completely justified, he gives a sense of what kind of person he is.

I haven't read the Gaines book in quite a while, but I can't erase Pamplin's demeaning comments about his affair with Marilyn. It was hard to believe he had so little ability to self-reflect that he couldn't recognize he was coming off as a complete tool. Gaines gave him plenty of rope to hang himself. I'd like to think Gaines got that Rocky was a pr*ck, but it was hard to tell in the text. It was salacious and nasty, so of course it was included. But speaking as a female. Pamplin showed he was no gentleman.

His "book" (which no doubt is "as told to" since dude only has a few sentences he can string together) would probably be a fascinating memoir of a idiot-narcissist, and for that reason alone, I'd read it.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on November 12, 2015, 07:30:24 PM
Gaines quoted Pamplin quite a bit in his book. In almost every quote Pamplin showed himself to be a dull and ugly person. Based alone on his attitude about beating up Dennis, which he seemed to think completely justified, he gives a sense of what kind of person he is.

I haven't read the Gaines book in quite a while, but I can't erase Pamplin's demeaning comments about his affair with Marilyn. It was hard to believe he had so little ability to self-reflect that he couldn't recognize he was coming off as a complete tool. Gaines gave him plenty of rope to hang himself. I'd like to think Gaines got that Rocky was a pr*ck, but it was hard to tell in the text. It was salacious and nasty, so of course it was included. But speaking as a female. Pamplin showed he was no gentleman.

His "book" (which no doubt is "as told to" since dude only has a few sentences he can string together) would probably be a fascinating memoir of a idiot-narcissist, and for that reason alone, I'd read it.
I remember that. He seems truly hideous.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on November 12, 2015, 08:57:07 PM

Even if you’re inclined to not immediately be defensive of Carl being punched, even if Carl was just some random guy, Pamplin *still* comes across like a douche in the story. Maybe he was a big tough guy, but punching and knocking out some guy who’s drunk and strung out on heavy drugs isn’t the most challenging thing in the world.


Not defending Pamplin's actions by any means, but Carl's behaviour had just nearly tanked an entire tour. To then get drunk and abusive when confronted may have been the proverbial straw.

But here's the thing....

The Beach Boys were the employers of these pieces of sh*t. Therefore Rocky Pamplin punched one his employers in the face. So you or he or Steve Love can defend it 'til the cows come home, but what he did ain't right.

Highlighted for your convenience.  ;D


Got it. But if you're not "defending" his actions, then exactly what is the point of pointing out Carl's actions and how they related to the tour?
So basically my point is, who gives a sh*t what Carl did on that tour, vis-à-vis Rocky. If Mike Love or the promoter or whoever punched Carl, then I could see the reasoning behind bringing it up. But bringing it up, even if it's not in defense of Rocky sure seems a little curious.

The point was to provide some background information leading up to Carl getting slugged. None of the Wilson brothers should have been out on the road in '78 - they were a mess, but yes Pamplin overstepped his bounds by hitting Carl. If he didn't like the situation he should have quit.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: donald on November 12, 2015, 09:49:58 PM
Shiiiiiiit......lol!!!!!     who here wouldn't read this sh*t?       Suck it down with a cold one!        Absorb what you wish......assimilate and accommodate and toss out the rest........you just know there is so much more to the story....you just have to sort it out........don't you?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Manning on November 12, 2015, 10:29:42 PM
Bearing in mind that it already seems that there'll be more about Carl in this book than there is in the actual biography of Carl, I may just give it a whirl, if Staincorth library gets a copy.

(I also like ChicagoAnn's reasoning to read the thing)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Vernon Surfer on November 12, 2015, 10:50:11 PM
Just noticed that Pamplin played for my hometown team, the Montreal Allouettes of the CFL.. Don't recall him at all


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: JK on November 13, 2015, 01:12:28 AM
I still find it comical that a Beach Boys biography could contain the “safe” half of a Playgirl centerfold.

Fans of the "unsafe" half (and "good-looking 1970s men") can buy the mag here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Playgirl-Magazine-May-1976-Featuring-Rock-Pamplin-In-Centerfold-/191133486599     


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: JK on November 13, 2015, 02:05:23 AM
Bearing in mind that it already seems that there'll be more about Carl in this book than there is in the actual biography of Carl, I may just give it a whirl, if Staincorth library gets a copy.

 :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on November 13, 2015, 04:12:06 AM
Curious, Steve and Mike are estranged, I believe. But what about Steve and Stan? And Mike and Stan?

Don't know, but there was a news article about Brian attending one of Kevin Love's games awhile back. Seem to recall he sat next to Stan.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on November 13, 2015, 11:51:32 PM
Might have missed if this was asked thus far, but did Mr. Pablum remain in the employ of the band after this incident? 
This dude and Stain Love sound like bullies and jack axes.  Somebody in that room should have retaliated; a table lamp or some other room furnishing is perfectly acceptable in such circumstances (IMO) to clonk such a creep in the head. 
 :)

Did the Carl punching incident happen before or after the infamous drunken Good Vibrations performance (and subsequent apology interview conducted in a hotel)?
The recent "In Concert" book has the "heroin incident" happening a few days before the infamous Perth show. Actually, the book seems to indicate the incident was the direct cause of Carl's quick decline into alcohol for the rest of the Australian tour.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 14, 2015, 12:12:14 AM
Um... Carl had a growing problem with both the bottle and horse some months before the band went to Australia in early 1978. If anything, said tour (and the footage of it) spurred him to clean up his act.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on November 14, 2015, 12:21:36 AM
I knew that he already had a problem. I was just pointing out that the Beach Boys In Concert book seems to indicate that Carl's condition hit "rock bottom" after the assault took place.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 14, 2015, 01:16:45 AM
Seems his pro football career was less than stellar. Drafted by the Saints in 1971 (239th overall, 5th in 10th round), he never played an NFL game for them. The claim that he played in the CFL for Montreal isn't supported by any evidence other than the Gaines book. In fact, the Montreal rosters from 1972-1986 don't include anyone called Pamplin, so looks like he never played pro football at the highest level (or even the WFL...) in North America at all.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on November 14, 2015, 01:40:17 AM
Might have missed if this was asked thus far, but did Mr. Pablum remain in the employ of the band after this incident? 

THAT is the question. After Pamplin decked Carl, did Carl's brothers - Brian Wilson AND Dennis Wilson - demand that Pamplin be dismissed?

The Gaines Book has it that Dennis was pissed but “was not prepared for a physical confrontation and stayed away from Rocky and Stan as he could”.

I would assume Brian was equally sh*t-scared and doubly out of it to take affirmative action, just my thoughts.

The man who, basically, ignored it all and pretty much demanded the tour continue was the promoter - one David P. Frost.

The Gaines book again, and take it with ye grain o'preference, would have it that David Frost “coolly” (no pun) told Rocky “You’re the one who should leave town” post punch and other fracas.

Did someone & who tape the incident - it's seemingly richly recounted in H&V, I'm assuming yes.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 14, 2015, 02:18:08 AM
The Gaines book again, and take it with ye grain o'preference, would have it that David Frost “coolly” (no pun) told Rocky “You’re the one who should leave town” post punch and other fracas.

Did someone & who tape the incident - it's seemingly richly recounted in H&V, I'm assuming yes.

No-one had to tape anything: the main source for the Gaines book was present.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on November 14, 2015, 04:42:07 AM
Might have missed if this was asked thus far, but did Mr. Pablum remain in the employ of the band after this incident? 

THAT is the question. After Pamplin decked Carl, did Carl's brothers - Brian Wilson AND Dennis Wilson - demand that Pamplin be dismissed?

The Gaines Book has it that Dennis was pissed but “was not prepared for a physical confrontation and stayed away from Rocky and Stan as he could”.

I would assume Brian was equally sh*t-scared and doubly out of it to take affirmative action, just my thoughts.

I wouldn't expect any PHYSICAL retaliation from Dennis or Brian. There are other ways to dismiss someone, especially if you're Dennis Wilson and especially if you're Brian Wilson. It appears they did nothing to defend their brother Carl, and it was actually Marilyn Wilson who dismissed Pamplin a year later.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on November 14, 2015, 05:33:16 AM
Whew. Pretty weaselly, even for you.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on November 14, 2015, 08:23:48 AM
Whew. Pretty weaselly, even for you.
He has a point, which can be spun in different ways. The Wilson brothers all, at one time or another, demonstrated a distressing inability to defend themselves or stand up for themselves, as a group or as individuals. It's startling sometimes how powerless one's psyche can render someone despite all the trappings of power.
But it seems at times that they were so used to abuse that they had no sense that they could stop it; even when they were millionaire rock stars. Unfortunately, they were involved with people who used this weakness to try to control, dominate and exploit them and all three endured a lot of brutality.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on November 14, 2015, 09:06:55 AM
I always felt that this was one of the ugliest incidents in the BB's personal history. When I first read about it in the Gaines book I really didn't believe it, the fact that an employee could hit a member of the band and get away with it. I have a hard time picturing this happening to the Stones or the Who. But this was Beach Boy land where the rules of logic don't apply. I'm sure that Pamplin and Stan(to a lesser degree) couldn't believe their luck when they became bodyguards for this crew of wimps. And lets face it, I love these guys but, that's what they are. When Steve Love relates this story he says that Carl's comment to Pamplin was made around "real men". Maybe around the Wilsons' and the world of show business they were "real men" but not in the real world. In this world the Loves' do fancy themselves as tough guys. Stan , the bodyguard was 6'9" and a string bean, Mike 5'10" and skinny most of his adult life. Steve Love, I guess he got tough with Blondie Chaplin, what a stud. I really think that the Loves' at best resent the Wilsons', at worst they hate them. To this day Mike laughing about the beating that Dennis got in 1981 and Steve marveling at the perfect haymaker that took down that cage fighter Carl Wilson. If karma exists then maybe both Pamplin and Stan will get what's coming to them from some genuinely bad-ass Wilson brothers fans.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on November 14, 2015, 10:55:27 AM
It is unreal that Pamplin didn't get an instant dismissal.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on November 14, 2015, 11:09:43 AM
Who in the organization was going to fire him? I'm sure when they saw what he was capable of , they were all afraid of him. I haven't read the Gaines book in a while, who eventually did can him?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on November 14, 2015, 11:45:49 AM
It's easy.  "Saw yer pic there Rocky.  Sorry.  Yer too tiny to be a body guard.  Off ya go.  Bye now."  

Whoever hired him should have been dismissed too.  His 'action' must have been condoned.  THAT person should have been tossed as well.  Only 'sucks', pretenders and bullies beat up on the little fellas...the easy prey.  Contrary to the physical evidence...ol' Rocky had no 'pills'.  Don't need that kind of 1/2 miler around when the going gets tough.

Oh and Mike ain't 5:10.  He's still a inch or 2 over 6 feet.  You get older...your frame shrinks a bit.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on November 14, 2015, 02:34:53 PM
I stood toe to toe with Mike back in '81. I'm 6'1" and was a good 2-3 inches taller( and I have the photo to prove it). However that really wasn't the point: Mike wasn't a tough guy before, then or now , regardless of what he thinks. He's just a guy with a bad temper who practices TM.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on November 14, 2015, 09:40:54 PM
The Gaines book again, and take it with ye grain o'preference, would have it that David Frost “coolly” (no pun) told Rocky “You’re the one who should leave town” post punch and other fracas.

Did someone & who tape the incident - it's seemingly richly recounted in H&V, I'm assuming yes.

No-one had to tape anything: the main source for the Gaines book was present.

Thanks, AGD - just curious as the story in H&V is recounted in some detail (lengthy quotes, words relaying specific tone), and made me think it was transcribed versus eye witness recollection.  Who was the source, if you can say (I have 3 names in mind) - cheers - A


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on November 14, 2015, 11:48:53 PM
So is the story that the "heroin incident" was secretly taped not true?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 10, 2015, 12:41:50 PM
Historically, the deepest secrets are kept for the longest time. They take the longest to surface. It has taken three and a half decades for the collective unconscious to be ready to hear the shadows point of view.
The music business is fickle and cruel, to say the least, and then there are the voices Brian Wilson hears in his head...

In my book "WIPEOUT'" It is replete with rather racy recollections of movie and rock stars, rich people, and royalty. It is a story of deceit and betrayal, the excesses of ego, where greed and jealousy run riot and family members are fair game. Brian Wilson, the ever fragile golden goose, is fleeced again and again by his rapacious first cousin, Mike Love, who later turns his poisonous venom on his younger brother and then Beach Boys manager, Stephen.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Ian on December 10, 2015, 12:55:53 PM
For our book The Beach Boys In Concert I personally conducted many interviews and much of the stuff in Gaines was indeed confirmed.  In terms of that incident I quote musician Sterling Smith in the book.  He was on that tour and relates the story of how he came to work the day after that infamous meeting and saw Carl being heavily made up to cover his black eye as the BBs were to appear on TV that night.   And-in the book what I stated was that Carl was given painkillers and this contributed to his slurred appearance in the footage filmed at Melbourne that makes the rounds.  The really bad night in Perth happened a week later and is only available on audio.  I didn't say that the tour led to his bottoming out-as he was already in bad shape-but the behind the scenes crap going on that time would drive almost anyone to drink!!! So Carl deserves a free pass on that tour (by the way-almost his only public misstep in a 30+ year career!!! Pretty damn good)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on December 10, 2015, 01:04:15 PM
Historically, the deepest secrets are kept for the longest time. They take the longest to surface. It has taken three and a half decades for the collective unconscious to be ready to hear the shadows point of view.
The music business is fickle and cruel, to say the least, and then there are the voices Brian Wilson hears in his head...

In my book "WIPEOUT'" It is replete with rather racy recollections of movie and rock stars, rich people, and royalty. It is a story of deceit and betrayal, the excesses of ego, where greed and jealousy run riot and family members are fair game. Brian Wilson, the ever fragile golden goose, is fleeced again and again by his rapacious first cousin, Mike Love, who later turns his poisonous venom on his younger brother and then Beach Boys manager, Stephen.

Heh. If this *is* Rocky Pamplin, I have to have a tiny bit of admiration for his guts in showing up here, in this thread, after what's been said about him.

Only a tiny bit, though.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on December 10, 2015, 01:05:42 PM
Brian Wilson, the ever fragile golden goose, is fleeced again and again by his rapacious first cousin, Mike Love, who later turns his poisonous venom on his younger brother and then Beach Boys manager, Stephen.

I was wondering when you'd turn up! So, any sneak peeks at what kind of venom you're talking about here.

This thread is gonna go realllly fucking weird now.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: barsone on December 10, 2015, 01:19:30 PM
amen Ontor..........oh Mods, this is going to go south very fast.....


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Bicyclerider on December 10, 2015, 01:40:22 PM
Tales of Mike Love turning his venom on people will certainly play well here, let's hear more!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: jeffh on December 10, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
Historically, the deepest secrets are kept for the longest time. They take the longest to surface. It has taken three and a half decades for the collective unconscious to be ready to hear the shadows point of view.
The music business is fickle and cruel, to say the least, and then there are the voices Brian Wilson hears in his head...

In my book "WIPEOUT'" It is replete with rather racy recollections of movie and rock stars, rich people, and royalty. It is a story of deceit and betrayal, the excesses of ego, where greed and jealousy run riot and family members are fair game. Brian Wilson, the ever fragile golden goose, is fleeced again and again by his rapacious first cousin, Mike Love, who later turns his poisonous venom on his younger brother and then Beach Boys manager, Stephen.

Where is your "Wipeout" book availability? Please share a link here


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: chaki on December 10, 2015, 01:45:17 PM
Rocky please share some of the things we will get to read about!

Do you still "see" Marilyn once in a while? heh  ;D


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on December 10, 2015, 02:05:31 PM
Looks like sh*t just got interesting......


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 10, 2015, 02:25:34 PM
Lorren Daro redux ?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Ian on December 10, 2015, 03:29:09 PM
I suggest that if you want him to post and answer some questions that you not immediately insult him.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 10, 2015, 03:43:22 PM
Rocky please share some of the things we will get to read about!

Do you still "see" Marilyn once in a while? heh  ;D

Marilyn's husband would be delighted to read your uncalled-for and ungentlemanly comment, I'm sure.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Shady on December 10, 2015, 03:54:14 PM
Historically, the deepest secrets are kept for the longest time. They take the longest to surface. It has taken three and a half decades for the collective unconscious to be ready to hear the shadows point of view.
The music business is fickle and cruel, to say the least, and then there are the voices Brian Wilson hears in his head...

In my book "WIPEOUT'" It is replete with rather racy recollections of movie and rock stars, rich people, and royalty. It is a story of deceit and betrayal, the excesses of ego, where greed and jealousy run riot and family members are fair game. Brian Wilson, the ever fragile golden goose, is fleeced again and again by his rapacious first cousin, Mike Love, who later turns his poisonous venom on his younger brother and then Beach Boys manager, Stephen.

Mike Love just called his lawyers


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: wilsonart1 on December 10, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
Who's Mike Love?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on December 10, 2015, 04:49:45 PM
Welcome, Rocky.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 10, 2015, 04:59:39 PM
 :)   "THANK YOU IAN...!  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on December 10, 2015, 05:07:05 PM
So...what is the status of the book? Stephen was discussing it in some detail a while back. Btw Steve seems to have a good life in Hawaii.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: 18thofMay on December 10, 2015, 05:12:20 PM
Rocky please share some of the things we will get to read about!

Do you still "see" Marilyn once in a while? heh  ;D

Marilyn's husband would be delighted to read your uncalled-for and ungentlemanly comment, I'm sure.
Filthy comment. Very uncalled for.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on December 10, 2015, 06:17:47 PM
Rocky please share some of the things we will get to read about!

Do you still "see" Marilyn once in a while? heh  ;D

Marilyn's husband would be delighted to read your uncalled-for and ungentlemanly comment, I'm sure.

There you go again ::). The pot calling the kettle black. A real Charm School dropout if there ever was one.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 10, 2015, 07:40:15 PM
Steve was talking about it quite a bit a few years back.



335Steve Love on July 14, 2014


Not only was I NOT the guy who karate chopped Dennis in the throat in 1974 at the Red Onion restaurant in Redondo Beach, CA, I’m the guy who knocked out the bouncer who struck a barefoot Dennis who attempted to push past the doorman to get to the dance floor. This incident is recounted in detail in Rocky’s forthcoming book WIPEOUT in the chapter titled “A Broken Spirit.”


Steve



Sorry Steve. The way it's told here, the bouncer didn't deserve a hiding.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: kiwi surfer on December 10, 2015, 09:59:41 PM
Rocky please share some of the things we will get to read about!

Do you still "see" Marilyn once in a while? heh  ;D

Despicable post.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: JK on December 11, 2015, 02:17:13 AM
Rocky please share some of the things we will get to read about!

Do you still "see" Marilyn once in a while? heh  ;D

Despicable post.

It's not too late for an apology, Chaki. "I was drunk", "I only meant it as a joke", whatever. And "I'm sorry".   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mtaber on December 11, 2015, 04:16:43 AM
I find it interesting that many here will question the intestinal fortitude of Brian and Dennis for not standing up to a thug who just clobbered their drunk brother, while simultaneously slinging insults at other posters across oceans as they themselves hide behind fake names on this board.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: LeeDempsey on December 11, 2015, 04:55:42 AM
Rocky please share some of the things we will get to read about!

Do you still "see" Marilyn once in a while? heh  ;D

Despicable post.

It's not too late for an apology, Chaki. "I was drunk", "I only meant it as a joke", whatever. And "I'm sorry".   

+1 .  Marilyn and her husband Daniel are close friends of mine, and Daniel (who loves Brian's music, and understands that there will always be a bond between Brian and Marilyn) reads this board on occasion.  An apology is in order.

Lee


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: chaki on December 11, 2015, 08:24:25 AM
I apologize for daring even to question or joke about the sanctity of marriage on this precious board in a thread about the great Rocky Pamplin.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 11, 2015, 08:33:30 AM
Transparent sarcasm not acceptable. Are you married ?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SBonilla on December 11, 2015, 08:59:40 AM
I apologize for daring even to question or joke about the sanctity of marriage on this precious board in a thread about the great Rocky Pamplin.

Only a Chaki Pamplin would say this.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 11, 2015, 10:35:08 AM
I apologize for daring even to question or joke about the sanctity of marriage on this precious board in a thread about the great Rocky Pamplin.
That's a diversion. You didn't question or joke about the sanctity of marriage, you made a crude personal dig at a private person.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on December 11, 2015, 10:41:39 AM
Ok, let's get back to venom. Tut-tutting chaki is boring. We get that kinda venom all the time! Let's go for vintage venom. Rollicking Rocky reverie!

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-t4bPN_NstOE/VWieKTW7ouI/AAAAAAAAPGA/GLHXGa985Uk/s320/3924093929_016.bmp)

So! What did you think of Mike Love when you first met him? What about towards the end? How did he treat Brian Wilson in private?



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: MarcellaHasDirtyFeet on December 11, 2015, 11:13:12 AM
Ok, let's get back to venom. Tut-tutting chaki is boring. We get that kinda venom all the time! Let's go for vintage venom. Rollicking Rocky reverie!

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-t4bPN_NstOE/VWieKTW7ouI/AAAAAAAAPGA/GLHXGa985Uk/s320/3924093929_016.bmp)

So! What did you think of Mike Love when you first met him? What about towards the end? How did he treat Brian Wilson in private?



Jeez! Buy the book, ya cheapskate  :psyche


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ChicagoAnn on December 11, 2015, 06:41:43 PM

Jeez! Buy the book, ya cheapskate  :psyche

Don't think it has a publisher yet.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Manning on December 12, 2015, 06:09:04 AM

Jeez! Buy the book, ya cheapskate  :psyche

Don't think it has a publisher yet.

What an opportunity for a budding publishing entrepreneur! :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 12, 2015, 08:01:10 AM
How about crowd-sourcing?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: chaki on December 12, 2015, 02:11:28 PM
What would the perks be?

I'd kick in $25 to get a genuine sock in the jaw by the Rockster himself.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on December 12, 2015, 02:33:22 PM
$25 would just get you an ebook and a coupon for a firm shove. Actual fist involvement would be the $100 tier.

I think we need more of a tease for this book! Promises of dirt won't cut it in our short attention span age. What were we talking about again?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 12, 2015, 02:38:06 PM
How much do you have to pay for him to have relations with your GF?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 13, 2015, 10:03:04 AM
"And as for the lawsuit Mike brought against Brian claiming he was deserving of 50% of the royalties from the songs, I know there were shenanigans that took place in that trial that hopefully will see the light of day in the future. I gave Brian all the ammunition he would need to undo the wrong done him when I was deposed at length in AUG 2006 in connection with the Jardine-Love case. I feel that Brian was royally screwed by Mike and his highly effective lawyers. They really snowed that gullible jury. What a travesty that whole thing was. I believe it is one of the biggest injustices ever to occur in the history of pop music!"                                            - Steve Love from an online blog. I wonder what he meant by all of that?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 13, 2015, 11:09:39 AM
"And as for the lawsuit Mike brought against Brian claiming he was deserving of 50% of the royalties from the songs, I know there were shenanigans that took place in that trial that hopefully will see the light of day in the future. I gave Brian all the ammunition he would need to undo the wrong done him when I was deposed at length in AUG 2006 in connection with the Jardine-Love case. I feel that Brian was royally screwed by Mike and his highly effective lawyers. They really snowed that gullible jury. What a travesty that whole thing was. I believe it is one of the biggest injustices ever to occur in the history of pop music!"                                            - Steve Love from an online blog. I wonder what he meant by all of that?

Hopefully Steve will write his memoir too so we can hear his side.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: kiwi surfer on December 13, 2015, 11:27:59 AM
"And as for the lawsuit Mike brought against Brian claiming he was deserving of 50% of the royalties from the songs, I know there were shenanigans that took place in that trial that hopefully will see the light of day in the future. I gave Brian all the ammunition he would need to undo the wrong done him when I was deposed at length in AUG 2006 in connection with the Jardine-Love case. I feel that Brian was royally screwed by Mike and his highly effective lawyers. They really snowed that gullible jury. What a travesty that whole thing was. I believe it is one of the biggest injustices ever to occur in the history of pop music!"                                            - Steve Love from an online blog. I wonder what he meant by all of that?

Perhaps Steve Love overstated the weight of his deposition.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 13, 2015, 11:53:16 AM
What I've gleaned is that Brian caved and ML got undue credit.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 13, 2015, 12:35:27 PM
What I've gleaned is that Brian caved and ML got undue credit.

Uh oh.  (<- <-  <- intended in good fun)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 13, 2015, 01:00:51 PM
What I've gleaned is that Brian caved and ML got undue credit.

Uh oh.  (<- <-  <- intended in good fun)
Oh dear... I don't mean undue credit across the board.
I think credit was due on a lot of stuff. I think, as is a typical strategy in this sort of case, ML's lawyers put in songs where credit was clearly due, but for the sake of a negotiating buffer put in songs where a claim for credit is really weak, expecting push-back on the latter. A proper balance would've been found through a volley. It seems that BW just folded in court, so the volley never happened and over-reach was awarded credit.
A weird side-effect is that the over-reaches are now held up as examples of ML's entire case being nonsense, when for the most part it wasn't. He had a number of songs that he should've gotten 50-50 or more or less credit from the beginning. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on December 13, 2015, 01:04:26 PM
Emily, you'll never get Cam Mott to agree that ML over-reached on absolutely anything, not even the timeless contribution of sleep tight/good night oh bay on WIBN. That's just not going to ever happen in this particular dimension. Would love to hear what our honored guest and Steve Love thinks before the filibustering begins!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 13, 2015, 01:05:35 PM
Emily, you'll never get Cam Mott to agree that ML over-reached on absolutely anything, not even the timeless contribution of sleep tight/good night oh bay on WIBN. That's just not going to ever happen in this particular dimension.
That's cool. I don't need him to agree. I just don't want anyone to think that I was saying ML deserved no credit.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on December 13, 2015, 01:06:03 PM
Oh I know, but being fair isn't enough, really.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on December 13, 2015, 01:15:54 PM
What I've gleaned is that Brian caved and ML got undue credit.

Uh oh.  (<- <-  <- intended in good fun)
Oh dear... I don't mean undue credit across the board.
I think credit was due on a lot of stuff. I think, as is a typical strategy in this sort of case, ML's lawyers put in songs where credit was clearly due, but for the sake of a negotiating buffer put in songs where a claim for credit is really weak, expecting push-back on the latter. A proper balance would've been found through a volley. It seems that BW just folded in court, so the volley never happened and over-reach was awarded credit.
A weird side-effect is that the over-reaches are now held up as examples of ML's entire case being nonsense, when for the most part it wasn't. He had a number of songs that he should've gotten 50-50 or more or less credit from the beginning. 


This is largely the impression I've got. I think very few (not zero, but very few) people would argue that Mike should have a bigger share of the credit for Wouldn't It Be Nice than Tony Asher, as he does now. I'd also suggest that equally few (though again not zero) people think that Mike shouldn't have roughly 50% of the songwriting credits for California Girls.
I suspect that *just with regard to the share of credit between Brian and Mike* justice has pretty much been done -- Mike spent twenty-five or so years getting far too little credit and money, during the period when those songs were the most popular, and has spent another twenty-five or so years getting slightly too much credit and money, when the songs were less popular. I think though that lawyers' fees and so forth have made Brian lose out disproportionately, and that some of the more dubious claims have left Brian's collaborators hard done to.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on December 13, 2015, 02:29:38 PM
The way I've always understood it, Mike's lawyers were willing to settle for something like $750,000 plus credit, but Brian's lawyers insisted they could win if it went to trial. It did, they didn't, and there you have it. If someone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 13, 2015, 02:56:42 PM
That's how I've always heard it, from back at the time (mid-90s).


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on December 13, 2015, 03:03:05 PM
The way I've always understood it, Mike's lawyers were willing to settle for something like $750,000 plus credit, but Brian's lawyers insisted they could win if it went to trial. It did, they didn't, and there you have it. If someone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me.

And, I believe Brian ended up suing his law team for advising against settlement and then losing.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 13, 2015, 03:27:37 PM
Yeah. I'd heard about the settlement offer and rejection as well. It seems to me that Brian's lawyers thought they could do better in court, then when they got there their main witness (Brian) essentially refused to participate.
Mike's lawyers, judging by the settlement offer, did not expect to win as much as they did, because some of it was unwarranted. But they won the unwarranted stuff in the end because Brian's main witness (himself) refused to participate.
Basically, Brian and his lawyers screwed up and lost more than they should have.
Please keep in mind - I am not arguing that ML didn't deserve credit on many songs. And I don't dispute that he deserved 50% credit on many songs.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 13, 2015, 03:31:45 PM
The way I've always understood it, Mike's lawyers were willing to settle for something like $750,000 plus credit, but Brian's lawyers insisted they could win if it went to trial. It did, they didn't, and there you have it. If someone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me.

And, I believe Brian ended up suing his law team for advising against settlement and then losing.

Yup, and rightly so. They ended up costing him roughly $9,250,000 more than if they'd just accepted the out of court offer.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on December 13, 2015, 03:33:30 PM
Also - supposedly Mike agreed to be deposed on Brian's behalf in the latter's lawsuit against A&M music publishing, in exchange for finally getting credit and royalties for half of "California Girls" (that half being the lyrics). When that didn't happen, his lawyers filed suit against Brian, but made it clear they would accept a settlement - which didn't happen.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 13, 2015, 06:39:24 PM
Emily, you'll never get Cam Mott to agree that ML over-reached on absolutely anything, not even the timeless contribution of sleep tight/good night oh bay on WIBN. That's just not going to ever happen in this particular dimension.
That's cool. I don't need him to agree. I just don't want anyone to think that I was saying ML deserved no credit.

I get it and I don't need you to agree with me either but despite Ontor "graciously" speaking for me, we can discuss it with each other.

I suppose the fact is none of us knows for sure. I personally think it is pretty certain that Mike was under-credited (as he reportedly had witnesses) and even when he had been credited before 1967 he was sometimes under-credited as was Tony Asher (according to Tony Asher and Mike).  I guess Steve might disagree with me too.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 13, 2015, 07:37:50 PM
Emily, you'll never get Cam Mott to agree that ML over-reached on absolutely anything, not even the timeless contribution of sleep tight/good night oh bay on WIBN. That's just not going to ever happen in this particular dimension.
That's cool. I don't need him to agree. I just don't want anyone to think that I was saying ML deserved no credit.

I get it and I don't need you to agree with me either but despite Ontor "graciously" speaking for me, we can discuss it with each other.

I suppose the fact is none of us knows for sure. I personally think it is pretty certain that Mike was under-credited (as he reportedly had witnesses) and even when he had been credited before 1967 he was sometimes under-credited as was Tony Asher (according to Tony Asher and Mike).  I guess Steve might disagree with me too.
Happily, it seems that even though we don't need to agree, we for the most part do. I have no qualms agreeing with the above.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: kiwi surfer on December 13, 2015, 07:52:56 PM
That's how I've always heard it, from back at the time (mid-90s).

Me too.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 14, 2015, 11:55:23 AM
 :)   Yes...the "ONE  and  ONLY" reason Stan and I beat up Dennis...is because Carolyn Williams, Brian's live in nurse, called Stephen Loves former personal assistant Janet Nelson in a "PANIC" crying out for "HELP" because Dennis was showing up at Brian's house,in the Palisades, on a regular basis and borrowing money to buy COCAINE and then sharing the COCAINE with Brian... (brotherly love) UNTIL Brian had a "SEIZURE"... and she had to stick a rolled up washcloth in his mouth to keep Brian from swallowing his tongue!!! IS THAT REASON ENOUGH FOR Y'ALL ? Stan came and got me on a Yacht Party' in Marina Del Ray, (the same Marina Dennis drowned in three years later) it was Super Bowl Sunday 1980. At around midnight Stan told me about the phone call he had received  that afternoon from Janet, Visa vie Carolyn Williams, about the horrific development with the ever demonstrative Dennis... and the COCAINE ... resulting in the  extremely dangerous  LIFE THREATENING SEIZURE Brian incurred the day before! To Dennis this is all just FUN and GAMES... Carolyn was SCARRED out of her mind...and called  Janet because she knew Janet would know how to reach Stan Love... the only person who would know what to do!  My response was... HOLY sh*t... your kidding... so what do you want to do... Stan said lets you and I go to Venus beach, where Dennis lives, I got his address from Carolyn, who is in tears... and BEAT THE sh*t out of Dennis... it's  the only language Dennis understands!!! I announced to the party guests... where Stan and I were going... and what we were going to do... and the Yacht party erupted in applause!  Though we no longer worked for Brian, in the capacity of keeping DRUGS OUT OF BRIAN'S LIFE... we still loved him!!! Off we went... the CALVARY to the rescue! Stan kicked the front door off the hinges, he and I CHARGED in, and in front of a dozen people doing COCAINE... Stan and I BEAT THE sh*t out of Dennis!!! Then we showed up the next mourning at 8 am... to find Dennis, all alone, sitting on a six inch stool drinking Myers Rum and OJ... "breakfast of champions" We had  ONE MESSAGE for Dennis... LEAVE BRIAN ALONE... OR WILL BE BACK!!! Dennis never bothered Brian again... this is just part of the first chapter of my book "WIPEOUT" entitled "HAD TO PHONE YA"   :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mtaber on December 14, 2015, 12:16:50 PM
Are there any Wilsons that have NOT been physically assaulted by the Love/Pamplin posse? 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on December 14, 2015, 12:18:12 PM
So your way of dealing with two severely ill people with mental health problems and addictions wasn't to get them medical help, or even to involve the police (which might have led to court-ordered rehab), but to beat one of them up, doing permanent physical damage.
Class. Pure class.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 14, 2015, 12:20:26 PM
Well, I'm sure there's no point in me trying to teach you the basics of civilization, so...

Can you let me know about B Wilson's therapy, between Landy periods? Was there a serious attempt to find him a residential treatment program and therapy with reputable doctors?
What was the process, both in terms of decision-making and legalities, to render him unto Landy?
Would you consider yourself to be about equivalently sophisticated as the decision-makers?
Was there anyone around who was educated and thoughtful and decent?

Who hired you initially to work for the Beach Boys? Were you a legal employee of BRI, or a direct employee of one of the Wilsons? Who actually paid you?
You say you worked for Brian, was it he who hired you, and was it he who was your manager (gave you instructions, approved your pay, etc.)?

How did you leave this position? Was it voluntary or was your position terminated? If it was terminated, who made that choice?

Did you generally feel welcome, socially and professionally, among the Beach Boys and their family, friends and colleagues? Do you feel that you saw eye-to-eye with them generally? That you fit in?

I must say, reading the post above is very revealing to me. If someone who would write such a thing was accepted within the BB world at that time, the BB world must have been hell altogether.

ETA: Wow. My opinion of everybody, family, friends, colleagues, associated with Brian and Dennis Wilson just spiraled. Anyone who gave half a sh*t about B Wilson wouldn't have stood by, let alone approved of him being held in the power of the sociopaths he was controlled by for years. I have never read something that affected my opinion as this one little post. Any defense has just been wiped out. If this is not trolling, if this is actually Rocky Pamplin, then anyone involved in that scene has been undeniably incriminated. There is no way a person who wrote such a post would not be transparently bad news.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on December 14, 2015, 12:58:05 PM
Most importantly, Rocky, when THE ROCK going to be reissued?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 14, 2015, 02:32:38 PM
So your way of dealing with two severely ill people with mental health problems and addictions wasn't to get them medical help, or even to involve the police (which might have led to court-ordered rehab), but to beat one of them up, doing permanent physical damage.
Class. Pure class.
Andrew - winding the clock back to when this stuff all happened might be helpful to give people context about addiction and the way in which the law in most of the states treated it.  

Nowadays, when there is an addicted person, who needs help and is always jonesing for another fix, there is the option of having a family member or friend or police officer, doctor, etc., who can petition the court to get a civil committment in a hospital or other detox facility and there is no criminal penalty.  It is a civil matter and does not affect the criminal record of an individual.  I do not think that there was that option at that time.  The person is arrested, (for their own protection) and the family  and a court doctor has to go to court and testify that the person has lost control of themselves and personal health, etc., and the judge has to believe those parties, and have a detox bed to put that person into.  

It seems that in many ways the "bouncers" (private police) (and I have little knowledge of this whole era) were paid to take the law into their own hands to keep a lid (dysfunctional as it was over 30 years ago) and perhaps keep any bad BB news out of the papers.  

That kind of civil commitment that a family or other member could push for (and doesn't ever happen automatically) because you are depriving a person of their civil liberties, and judges don't always order treatment.  It was harder back then.  It was a value judgment system.  Addicts were treated as criminals, rather than patients who needed medical intervention.  Even now there is no guarantee that you can get treatment as a friend or family member.  There was no narcan to bring someone out of an overdose.  

So addicts (as they do now) did everything they could to exploit a money source they had a "source of dough" (Brian) even if they were "sharing" the goods.  I can only imagine the bad headlines which would be bad all the way around. They were barely out of the woods with regard the bad media post-Manson.  

Anything to do with drugs was criminal.  There was a bad attitude about mental illness where people were "put away" and institutionalized.

People really used to think that you could physically "beat the addiction" out of someone.  It was looked upon (falsely and incorrectly) as "tough love."

The post above attempts to justify the action.  I am not defending the action but explaining what was common practice during that time.   You can't  use a 2015 standard on events that happened nearly 4 decades ago.  What was criminal in nature, in those days, now is largely recognized as a health issue.   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Manning on December 14, 2015, 02:47:19 PM
No offence Rocky - if it is indeed Rocky posting above - but I hope you have a good, kind and patient editor helping you with the draft for the book.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 14, 2015, 02:50:06 PM
Gosh, in order to generate exposure for the potential publication of his book, perhaps Rocky would like to join the Smiley Smile board so as to engage in dialogue with the members here.  >:D >:D


    :)
8)It would be remiss of me not to thank you for inviting me to join this website...THANK YOU... whomever you are? Did you create this website? You can email me personally if you like!  :)  I did'nt find out about this website until last week...A young  lady, from technical support at T.W.C., googled me while I was on the line with her and informed me of Smiley Smile. I called Stephen Love, my favorite person, and told him of it. He discovered that someone from the website "Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love) has posted a couple of his posts on this site... we would like to thank him as well...Good on ya mate. Before closing... I would like to say... There sure are some opinionated  uninformed people in this world. Just for the record I would like to say that Stephen Love saved Brian Wilson's life... when Brian's wife Marylin found  Brian in bed ... offering his seven year old daughter, Wendy, heroin... she absolutely freaked out and called Stephen, then Beach Boys manager, threatening to have Brian committed! Stephen pleaded with her to give him a chance to save Brian! He always took an extreme hard stand against DRUGS!!! He said he knew the exact right persons to keep DRUGS OUT OF BRIAN'S LIFE!!! An enormously CHALLENGING task... given Brian's fame and fortune... and addiction to drugs. Not to mention Dennis and Carl...who thought drugs were all fun and games!!!   :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 14, 2015, 02:52:45 PM

Nowadays, when there is an addicted person, who needs help and is always jonesing for another fix, there is the option of having a family member or friend or police officer, doctor, etc., who can petition the court to get a civil committment in a hospital or other detox facility and there is no criminal penalty.  It is a civil matter and does not affect the criminal record of an individual.  I do not think that there was that option at that time.  The person is arrested, (for their own protection) and the family  and a court doctor has to go to court and testify that the person has lost control of themselves and personal health, etc., and the judge has to believe and have a detox bed to put that person into.  

It seems that in many ways the "bouncers" (private police) (and I have little knowledge of this whole era) who took the law into their own hands to keep a lid (dysfunctional as it was over 30 years ago) and perhaps keep the bad BB news out of the papers.  That kind of civil commitment that a family or other member could push for (and doesn't ever happen automatically because you are depriving a person of their civil liberties, and judges don't always order treatment.  It was harder back then.  It was a value judgment system.  Addicts were treated as criminals, rather than patients who needed medical intervention.  Even now there is no guarantee that you can get treatment as a friend or family member.  There was no narcan to bring someone out of an overdose.  

So addicts (as they do now) did everything they could to exploit a money source they had a "source of dough" (Brian) even if they were "sharing" the goods.  I can only imagine the bad headlines which would be bad all the way around. They were barely out of the woods with regard the bad media post-Manson.  
.    
This is incorrect regarding the law. Civil commitments are, in most states, harder to obtain now than they were in the 1970's. At the time we are discussing, had someone sought a decent psychologist, BW could easily have been civilly committed for psychiatric reasons.
It's also possible that, had he received decent treatment from a decent psychologist, a civil commitment would not have been needed, because he would have been receiving treatment and would have been able to make better choices for himself.

Further, the idea that, in order to avoid bad press, one incarcerates one's brother, spouse, cousin, friend, colleague in a private jail run by Rocky Pamplin is completely barbaric: that it's more important to avoid bad press than to give your loved one in great need proper medical care.
Also, it wouldn't be bad press. The world already knew that BW had psychiatric and addiction problems. I was a child and I knew BW had psychiatric and addiction problems. The news that he was getting proper professional treatment would not have been bad press.

Frankly, I wonder what the statute of limitations is for involuntary confinement and torture.

The whole "ah, it was the seventies, there was no medicine! there was no law! there was no intelligent life on earth! we were running with the wolves!" stuff is garbage.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 14, 2015, 03:05:49 PM

Nowadays, when there is an addicted person, who needs help and is always jonesing for another fix, there is the option of having a family member or friend or police officer, doctor, etc., who can petition the court to get a civil committment in a hospital or other detox facility and there is no criminal penalty.  It is a civil matter and does not affect the criminal record of an individual.  I do not think that there was that option at that time.  The person is arrested, (for their own protection) and the family  and a court doctor has to go to court and testify that the person has lost control of themselves and personal health, etc., and the judge has to believe and have a detox bed to put that person into.  

It seems that in many ways the "bouncers" (private police) (and I have little knowledge of this whole era) who took the law into their own hands to keep a lid (dysfunctional as it was over 30 years ago) and perhaps keep the bad BB news out of the papers.  That kind of civil commitment that a family or other member could push for (and doesn't ever happen automatically because you are depriving a person of their civil liberties, and judges don't always order treatment.  It was harder back then.  It was a value judgment system.  Addicts were treated as criminals, rather than patients who needed medical intervention.  Even now there is no guarantee that you can get treatment as a friend or family member.  There was no narcan to bring someone out of an overdose.  

So addicts (as they do now) did everything they could to exploit a money source they had a "source of dough" (Brian) even if they were "sharing" the goods.  I can only imagine the bad headlines which would be bad all the way around. They were barely out of the woods with regard the bad media post-Manson.  
.    
This is incorrect regarding the law. Civil commitments are, in most states, harder to obtain now than they were in the 1970's. At the time we are discussing, had someone sought a decent psychologist, BW could easily have been civilly committed for psychiatric reasons.
It's also possible that, had he received decent treatment from a decent psychologist, a civil commitment would not have been needed, because he would have been receiving treatment and would have been able to make better choices for himself.

Further, the idea that, in order to avoid bad press, one incarcerates one's brother, spouse, cousin, friend, colleague in a private jail run by Rocky Pamplin is completely barbaric: that it's more important to avoid bad press than to give your loved one in great need proper medical care.
Also, it wouldn't be bad press. The world already knew that BW had psychiatric and addiction problems. I was a child and I knew BW had psychiatric and addiction problems. The news that he was getting proper professional treatment would not have been bad press.

Frankly, I wonder what the statute of limitations is for involuntary confinement and torture.

The whole "ah, it was the seventies, there was no medicine! there was no law! there was no intelligent life on earth! we were running with the wolves!" stuff is garbage.

Emily - That is not incorrect. I am quite familiar with at least the law in my own state and both alcohol/drug/ mental health commitments. It is more progressive.  I was talking about Dennis being committed.  (Perhaps treatment, rather than getting a beating.)  If you can't or could not convince an addict to get treatment, voluntarily, then you go to get the help of the court.

And, I am not apologizing for Rocky or anyone else.   Bad press?  What was worse than being involved, even tangentially than Manson.  And at least during the 60's and 70's what went on with the BB was carefully scripted and released by a press agent, unless they made the news by being a conscientious objector. 

It is called "false imprisonment." Dennis would have to have brought those charges, alongside whatever else is alleged to have taken place.  I certainly don't know because I was not there. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 14, 2015, 03:17:11 PM

Emily - That is not incorrect. I am quite familiar with at least the law in my own state and both alcohol/drug/ mental health commitments. It is more progressive.  I was talking about Dennis being committed.  (Perhaps treatment, rather than getting a beating.)  If you can't or could not convince an addict to get treatment, voluntarily, then you go to get the help of the court.

And, I am not apologizing for Rocky or anyone else.   Bad press?  What was worse than being involved, even tangentially than Manson.  And at least during the 60's and 70's what went on with the BB was carefully scripted and released by a press agent, unless they made the news by being a conscientious objector.  

It is called "false imprisonment." Dennis would have to have brought those charges, alongside whatever else is alleged to have taken place.  I certainly don't know because I was not there.  

Correct about "involuntary confinement" vs. "false imprisonment." The former is on my mind of course due to the topic and came out.
Regarding false imprisonment, I'm referring to BW. Not DW.
And, as it pertains to mental health, you are incorrect regarding the law. Involuntary hospitalization for mental health has a much more rigorous standard in almost all states than it used to.
You brought up bad press in your first post, intimating that it may be a motive for not following proper medical or legal channels. I responded that that's a poor excuse for imprisoning someone extra-judicially (regarding BW). Regarding DW, I would add that it's a poor excuse for battery.  I don't understand your comments regarding bad press in your most recent post.
Regarding Dennis Wilson - following legal procedures to get him help may have saved his life. Bashing his head in sure didn't.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Doo Dah on December 14, 2015, 03:36:35 PM
This book, if it ever comes out, will be another in a long line of 'tell alls', such as Tony Sanchez's Up and Down with the Rolling Stones. One of those salacious, disturbing and somewhat fascinating car wrecks.

The real cha-ching generated won't be book sales. It'll be legal fees.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 14, 2015, 03:51:43 PM

Emily - That is not incorrect. I am quite familiar with at least the law in my own state and both alcohol/drug/ mental health commitments. It is more progressive.  I was talking about Dennis being committed.  (Perhaps treatment, rather than getting a beating.)  If you can't or could not convince an addict to get treatment, voluntarily, then you go to get the help of the court.

And, I am not apologizing for Rocky or anyone else.   Bad press?  What was worse than being involved, even tangentially than Manson.  And at least during the 60's and 70's what went on with the BB was carefully scripted and released by a press agent, unless they made the news by being a conscientious objector.  

It is called "false imprisonment." Dennis would have to have brought those charges, alongside whatever else is alleged to have taken place.  I certainly don't know because I was not there.  
Correct about "involuntary confinement" vs. "false imprisonment." The former is on my mind of course due to the topic and came out.
Regarding false imprisonment, I'm referring to BW. Not DW.
And, as it pertains to mental health, you are incorrect regarding the law. Involuntary hospitalization for mental health has a much more rigorous standard in almost all states than it used to.
You brought up bad press in your first post, intimating that it may be a motive for not following proper medical or legal channels. I responded that that's a poor excuse for imprisoning someone extra-judicially (regarding BW). Regarding DW, I would add that it's a poor excuse for battery.  I don't understand your comments regarding bad press in your most recent post.
Regarding Dennis Wilson - following legal procedures to get him help may have saved his life. Bashing his head in sure didn't.
Dennis was the one in question.  That is about whom I was speaking.  This article traces the history of involuntary commitment and the standards involved along with the conflict of depriving a person of their personal freedom without a trial.  There were huge ethical issues for doctors. There were no drug courts on HBO back then.  

The process of the court is called "parens patrie." This is the "parent of the country" coming from English common law where the government has a responsibility to intervene on behalf of citizens who cannot act in their own best interest, which is coupled with the "police power"of the state to protect the interest of its citizens. The state has a duty to consider the welfare of all the people, sometimes at the cost of certain individuals.

Substance abuse, anorexia, alcohol, all are factored into this and are found after footnote 41.  In California in 1961, narcotics issues and treatment were connected to crimes.  Yes, that is back-in-the-day.   Then in 1966, the NARA Narcotic Addict Rehabilitation Act was passed to offer treatment instead of jail.  But there was an underlying crime.  

That was the beginning of the "diversion program" - and and now we have civil commitment "without a crime committed" is a newer concept.  And it requires a person who has "standing" (legal standing, like a parent, child, spouse, or close friend who has actual knowledge of the continuing drug or alcohol use and the failure of the person to eat, wash or take care of their personal affairs. Also, mandated people like police can file a Petition for Commitment.)

No criminal record comes from more modern civil commitment which in my state is only about ten years old. In 2001, 11 of the 50 states had commitment statutes that called for involuntary hospitalization of individuals with drug dependency problems. At that time (2001) only 20% of psychiatrists felt that substance abuse was criterial for civil commitment.   It was the medical people who had to catch up with the laws, not the other way around.   ;)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3392176

Dennis died in 1983.  I think he did not live long enough to benefit from changed attitudes.  Frankly, I feel that many of those doctors felt that dealing with drug addiction was beneath them. It wasn't recognized as a disease until fairly recently with brain scans and neuro science.  It wasn't "sexy" enough for them.  JMHO


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 14, 2015, 04:02:44 PM

Dennis was the one in question.  That is about whom I was speaking.  This article traces the history of involuntary commitment and the standards involved along with the conflict of depriving a person of their personal freedom without a trial.  There were huge ethical issues for doctors. There were no drug courts on HBO back then.  

The process of the court is called "parens patrie." This is the "parent of the country" coming from English common law where the government has a responsibility to intervene on behalf of citizens who cannot act in their own best interest, which is coupled with the "police power"of the state to protect the interest of its citizens. The state has a duty to consider the welfare of all the people, sometimes at the cost of certain individuals.

Substance abuse, anorexia, alcohol, all are factored into this and are found after footnote 41.  In California in 1961, narcotics issues and treatment were connected to crimes.  Yes, that is back-in-the-day.   Then in 1966, the NARA Narcotic Addict Rehabilitation Act was passed to offer treatment instead of jail.  But there was an underlying crime.  

That was the beginning of the "diversion program" - and and now we have civil commitment "without a crime committed" is a newer concept.  And it requires a person who has "standing" (legal standing, like a parent, child, spouse, or close friend who has actual knowledge of the continuing drug or alcohol use and the failure of the person to eat, wash or take care of their personal affairs. Also, mandated people like police can file a Petition for Commitment.)

No criminal record comes from more modern civil commitment which in my state is only about ten years old. In 2001, 11 of the 50 states had commitment statutes that called for involuntary hospitalization of individuals with drug dependency problems. At that time (2001) only 20% of psychiatrists felt that substance abuse was criterial for civil commitment.   It was the medical people who had to catch up with the laws, not the other way around.   ;)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3392176
"Dennis was the one in question" - your first reply was to this: "So your way of dealing with two severely ill people with mental health problems and addictions wasn't to get them medical help, or even to involve the police (which might have led to court-ordered rehab), but to beat one of them up, doing permanent physical damage."
So, I figured both "severely ill people with mental health problems and addictions" were the ones in question. But now it's clear.

Regarding your article, I read the same one earlier today, and http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1136&context=llr

Both support my point -  that it was easier then to get a commitment than it is now. As Andrew Hickey implies, in the post to which you initially responded, it would've been better to deal with the law and mental health professionals than to hire thugs to imprison and abuse them.

this article is more pertinent and concise than the other two:
http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/component/content/article/360


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 14, 2015, 06:07:29 PM

Dennis was the one in question.  That is about whom I was speaking.  This article traces the history of involuntary commitment and the standards involved along with the conflict of depriving a person of their personal freedom without a trial.  There were huge ethical issues for doctors. There were no drug courts on HBO back then.  

The process of the court is called "parens patrie." This is the "parent of the country" coming from English common law where the government has a responsibility to intervene on behalf of citizens who cannot act in their own best interest, which is coupled with the "police power"of the state to protect the interest of its citizens. The state has a duty to consider the welfare of all the people, sometimes at the cost of certain individuals.

Substance abuse, anorexia, alcohol, all are factored into this and are found after footnote 41.  In California in 1961, narcotics issues and treatment were connected to crimes.  Yes, that is back-in-the-day.   Then in 1966, the NARA Narcotic Addict Rehabilitation Act was passed to offer treatment instead of jail.  But there was an underlying crime.  

That was the beginning of the "diversion program" - and and now we have civil commitment "without a crime committed" is a newer concept.  And it requires a person who has "standing" (legal standing, like a parent, child, spouse, or close friend who has actual knowledge of the continuing drug or alcohol use and the failure of the person to eat, wash or take care of their personal affairs. Also, mandated people like police can file a Petition for Commitment.)

No criminal record comes from more modern civil commitment which in my state is only about ten years old. In 2001, 11 of the 50 states had commitment statutes that called for involuntary hospitalization of individuals with drug dependency problems. At that time (2001) only 20% of psychiatrists felt that substance abuse was criterial for civil commitment.   It was the medical people who had to catch up with the laws, not the other way around.   ;)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3392176
"Dennis was the one in question" - your first reply was to this: "So your way of dealing with two severely ill people with mental health problems and addictions wasn't to get them medical help, or even to involve the police (which might have led to court-ordered rehab), but to beat one of them up, doing permanent physical damage."
So, I figured both "severely ill people with mental health problems and addictions" were the ones in question. But now it's clear.

Regarding your article, I read the same one earlier today, and http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1136&context=llr

Both support my point -  that it was easier then to get a commitment than it is now. As Andrew Hickey implies, in the post to which you initially responded, it would've been better to deal with the law and mental health professionals than to hire thugs to imprison and abuse them.

this article is more pertinent and concise than the other two:
http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/component/content/article/360
We are on different pages.  One of the reasons that the "civil commitment" arose so strongly, as a direct result of addiction is because of the "mandatory minimums" and people locked up to the rate of over 50% incarceration for drug and alcohol addiction and activism among the bar associations not to imprison those who need treatment.  Civil commitment without having committed a crime, is that alternative.  It is working.  It requires persistence on the part of family, friends and others to make sure a civil commitment happens before worse happens.  It was not easy to get one for drug addiction without having an open criminal case.  This newer kind of civil commitment is independent of crime and that is what distinguishes it.   

You are looking at historical and scandalous, inhuman incarceration which might not have been that difficult to "write the papers" to get someone "inconvenient"  out of circulation, as done in many countries  to political enemies. Political gulags. 
 
And, I am looking only at the legal standards and shift of public policy in the last 20 years.   We can't change whatever happened with the band.  Maybe some in the "sphere" want to set the record as it relates to "them" and it doesn't really matter.  Dennis is unfortunately gone.   Dennis was apparently the injured party.  Is there a resolution?  I have no idea. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 14, 2015, 06:46:22 PM

We are on different pages.  One of the reasons that the "civil commitment" arose so strongly, as a direct result of addiction is because of the "mandatory minimums" and people locked up to the rate of over 50% incarceration for drug and alcohol addiction and activism among the bar associations not to imprison those who need treatment.  Civil commitment without having committed a crime, is that alternative.  It is working.  It requires persistence on the part of family, friends and others to make sure a civil commitment happens before worse happens.  It was not easy to get one for drug addiction without having an open criminal case.  This newer kind of civil commitment is independent of crime and that is what distinguishes it.    

You are looking at historical and scandalous, inhuman incarceration which might not have been that difficult to "write the papers" to get someone "inconvenient"  out of circulation, as done in many countries  to political enemies. Political gulags.  
 
And, I am looking only at the legal standards and shift of public policy in the last 20 years.   We can't change whatever happened with the band.  Maybe some in the "sphere" want to set the record as it relates to "them" and it doesn't really matter.  Dennis is unfortunately gone.   Dennis was apparently the injured party.  Is there a resolution?  I have no idea.  
Certainly involuntary hospitalization has been abused. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be beneficial if used appropriately. We're talking about Brian and Dennis Wilson. Their family could have arranged for a comfortable and safe private residential facility with reputable physicians and psychologists. It's not like the only option was to throw them in a state institution.
No, we can't change what happened to the band, but when someone shows up and says
Yes...the "ONE  and  ONLY" reason Stan and I beat up Dennis...is because Carolyn Williams, Brian's live in nurse, called Stephen Loves former personal assistant Janet Nelson in a "PANIC" crying out for "HELP" because Dennis was showing up at Brian's house,in the Palisades, on a regular basis and borrowing money to buy COCAINE and then sharing the COCAINE with Brian... (brotherly love) UNTIL Brian had a "SEIZURE"... and she had to stick a rolled up washcloth in his mouth to keep Brian from swallowing his tongue!!! IS THAT REASON ENOUGH FOR Y'ALL ?
, it doesn't seem unwarranted for Andrew Hickey to reply with
So your way of dealing with two severely ill people with mental health problems and addictions wasn't to get them medical help, or even to involve the police (which might have led to court-ordered rehab), but to beat one of them up, doing permanent physical damage.
When you replied to him, I took your reply to mean that they didn't really have valid useful options in the seventies, and they wanted to avoid bad press, so it wasn't unreasonable for them to hire thugs.
Thinking that that was what you meant, I replied as I did. If I mistook your meaning, I apologize.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 14, 2015, 07:18:05 PM

We are on different pages.  One of the reasons that the "civil commitment" arose so strongly, as a direct result of addiction is because of the "mandatory minimums" and people locked up to the rate of over 50% incarceration for drug and alcohol addiction and activism among the bar associations not to imprison those who need treatment.  Civil commitment without having committed a crime, is that alternative.  It is working.  It requires persistence on the part of family, friends and others to make sure a civil commitment happens before worse happens.  It was not easy to get one for drug addiction without having an open criminal case.  This newer kind of civil commitment is independent of crime and that is what distinguishes it.    

You are looking at historical and scandalous, inhuman incarceration which might not have been that difficult to "write the papers" to get someone "inconvenient"  out of circulation, as done in many countries  to political enemies. Political gulags.  
 
And, I am looking only at the legal standards and shift of public policy in the last 20 years.   We can't change whatever happened with the band.  Maybe some in the "sphere" want to set the record as it relates to "them" and it doesn't really matter.  Dennis is unfortunately gone.   Dennis was apparently the injured party.  Is there a resolution?  I have no idea.  
Certainly involuntary hospitalization has been abused. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be beneficial if used appropriately. We're talking about Brian and Dennis Wilson. Their family could have arranged for a comfortable and safe private residential facility with reputable physicians and psychologists. It's not like the only option was to throw them in a state institution.
No, we can't change what happened to the band, but when someone shows up and says
Yes...the "ONE  and  ONLY" reason Stan and I beat up Dennis...is because Carolyn Williams, Brian's live in nurse, called Stephen Loves former personal assistant Janet Nelson in a "PANIC" crying out for "HELP" because Dennis was showing up at Brian's house,in the Palisades, on a regular basis and borrowing money to buy COCAINE and then sharing the COCAINE with Brian... (brotherly love) UNTIL Brian had a "SEIZURE"... and she had to stick a rolled up washcloth in his mouth to keep Brian from swallowing his tongue!!! IS THAT REASON ENOUGH FOR Y'ALL ?
, it doesn't seem unwarranted for Andrew Hickey to reply with
So your way of dealing with two severely ill people with mental health problems and addictions wasn't to get them medical help, or even to involve the police (which might have led to court-ordered rehab), but to beat one of them up, doing permanent physical damage.
When you replied to him, I took your reply to mean that they didn't really have valid useful options in the seventies, and they wanted to avoid bad press, so it wasn't unreasonable for them to hire thugs.
Thinking that that was what you meant, I replied as I did. If I mistook your meaning, I apologize.
Emily - you know the meaning of "red tape." Cutting "red tape" to get a civil commitment has been very difficult.   Medicine didn't have very good treatment that was available to anyone if the best was Landy.   

Who do you call?  We can't blame families.  it puts the burden on them for an issue that defied doctors in those days.  They did their best.  I cannot comment on this guy writing a book because first, I don't know him, and second, I was not there. 

People are opining all over the place about stuff that they were not privy to, and about guys they don't know personally (for the majority of us) about standards that didn't exist at the time.  It is ridiculous.   I don't disagree with Andrew Hickey, but the UK and the US have very different treatment standards and treatment was "diversion based" in the US and connected to a crime.  People don't go to the police and the courts, unless they are desperate.

So, for anyone, even Dennis to get this type of "civil commitment," he would have had to commit a crime.   Were there places he could private pay?  Of course.  I think the band did everything they could, whenever they could for anyone in trouble. 

Likely there was no "talking any sense into anyone" while under the influence to commit themselves voluntarily and hiring a bodyguard looked like the best alternative.  I can't be the judge.   They made decisions for reasons that are unknown to me.  It is water over the bridge. 

What this guy Rocky said that whatever happened (Dennis getting decked) was that he never went back to Brian with drugs.  That seemed to the point of the post.   We weren't there.  And, if there was something that could have been done, I think it would have been done.  That is my position.   Not condoning anything and not judging.   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 14, 2015, 07:38:08 PM

Emily - you know the meaning of "red tape." Cutting "red tape" to get a civil commitment has been very difficult.   Medicine didn't have very good treatment that was available to anyone if the best was Landy.   

Who do you call?  We can't blame families.  it puts the burden on them for an issue that defied doctors in those days.  They did their best.  I cannot comment on this guy writing a book because first, I don't know him, and second, I was not there. 

People are opining all over the place about stuff that they were not privy to, and about guys they don't know personally (for the majority of us) about standards that didn't exist at the time.  It is ridiculous.   I don't disagree with Andrew Hickey, but the UK and the US have very different treatment standards and treatment was "diversion based" in the US and connected to a crime.  People don't go to the police and the courts, unless they are desperate.

So, for anyone, even Dennis to get this type of "civil commitment," he would have had to commit a crime.   Were there places he could private pay?  Of course.  I think the band did everything they could, whenever they could for anyone in trouble. 

Likely there was no "talking any sense into anyone" while under the influence to commit themselves voluntarily and hiring a bodyguard looked like the best alternative.  I can't be the judge.   They made decisions for reasons that are unknown to me.  It is water over the bridge. 

What this guy Rocky said that whatever happened (Dennis getting decked) was that he never went back to Brian with drugs.  That seemed to the point of the post.   We weren't there.  And, if there was something that could have been done, I think it would have been done.  That is my position.   Not condoning anything and not judging.   
We weren't there, but I feel no discomfort saying that beating people up is not the solution to drug addiction and mental illness. I also feel no discomfort reacting to a direct personal statement. People are opining about what they've read and what people have said. I'm not opining about what I don't know. I'm not saying Mr. Pamplin's dinner sucked. I'm saying that what he said above sucks.
McLean's and Silver Hill and many other residential psychiatric treatment centers were active and had (of course not 100%) success treating people with mental health and addiction issues. One did not need a criminal case to have a family member committed to care.
You say: "Medicine didn't have very good treatment that was available to anyone if the best was Landy."
The best was not Landy. Part of the problem is that the people who you say "did their best" hired thugs and some "therapist to the stars" dude with his own made up methodology that had not been put through trials, had not been reviewed by peers, had no professional support or reputation what-so-ever. He was a renegade gold-digger. He was not a reputable psychologist and there is no reason to think he was the "best." 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 14, 2015, 08:15:28 PM

Emily - you know the meaning of "red tape." Cutting "red tape" to get a civil commitment has been very difficult.   Medicine didn't have very good treatment that was available to anyone if the best was Landy.   

Who do you call?  We can't blame families.  it puts the burden on them for an issue that defied doctors in those days.  They did their best.  I cannot comment on this guy writing a book because first, I don't know him, and second, I was not there. 

People are opining all over the place about stuff that they were not privy to, and about guys they don't know personally (for the majority of us) about standards that didn't exist at the time.  It is ridiculous.   I don't disagree with Andrew Hickey, but the UK and the US have very different treatment standards and treatment was "diversion based" in the US and connected to a crime.  People don't go to the police and the courts, unless they are desperate.

So, for anyone, even Dennis to get this type of "civil commitment," he would have had to commit a crime.   Were there places he could private pay?  Of course.  I think the band did everything they could, whenever they could for anyone in trouble. 

Likely there was no "talking any sense into anyone" while under the influence to commit themselves voluntarily and hiring a bodyguard looked like the best alternative.  I can't be the judge.   They made decisions for reasons that are unknown to me.  It is water over the bridge. 

What this guy Rocky said that whatever happened (Dennis getting decked) was that he never went back to Brian with drugs.  That seemed to the point of the post.   We weren't there.  And, if there was something that could have been done, I think it would have been done.  That is my position.   Not condoning anything and not judging.   
We weren't there, but I feel no discomfort saying that beating people up is not the solution to drug addiction and mental illness. I also feel no discomfort reacting to a direct personal statement. People are opining about what they've read and what people have said. I'm not opining about what I don't know. I'm not saying Mr. Pamplin's dinner sucked. I'm saying that what he said above sucks.
McLean's and Silver Hill and many other residential psychiatric treatment centers were active and had (of course not 100%) success treating people with mental health and addiction issues. One did not need a criminal case to have a family member committed to care.
You say: "Medicine didn't have very good treatment that was available to anyone if the best was Landy."
The best was not Landy. Part of the problem is that the people who you say "did their best" hired thugs and some "therapist to the stars" dude with his own made up methodology that had not been put through trials, had not been reviewed by peers, had no professional support or reputation what-so-ever. He was a renegade gold-digger. He was not a reputable psychologist and there is no reason to think he was the "best." 
Emily - Landy had a client list including Alice Cooper, Richard Harris, Rod Steiger and Gig Young.  He was the therapist to the stars.  It looked good.  Better than it was.  "If we knew then what we know now" - well who knew?  Landy convinced a judge to get exclusive control. 

What he said may be offensive to you.  I can't help that.  I am uncomfortable not knowing the totality of the circumstances and opining.  And I am not familiar with Silver Spring.  McLean's does have a certain reputation that has fallen off lately as regards detox and follow up treatment for "the commoner." 

All patients are not created equally.  If you private pay, there might be a different level of care and aggressive treatment and length of care.  Not so much for those who can't. They get the three-day "spin dry" detox, and get tossed out into many questionable follow up "sober houses" that are unregulated. 

Over 90 of my former students and friends  of my children have died of drug overdoses, and know the pattern of detoxes, relapses, commitments and readmissions.  I don't know what happened with the band members.  It is a world of hell.  I have another OD funeral in three days.  A 30 year old who left two kids and I dread seeing my friend bury her oldest child after being on the detox-rehab roller coaster.       

Were the people involved interested in out of state care?  And, in order to commit a person to care you do need court approval or the  cooperation of the patient.  You are depriving a person of a liberty interest. And the patient is not on-board. It used to be that the philosophy was that the addict had some control of self-determination and choice.  Now, if it is deemed that you are unfit (by a court or other doctor) to take care of yourself and won't come off drugs, then you lose your freedom to protect yourself.   Now a judge decides.

If you come in with a private pay plan, you get to pick the provider.  If you don't have those resources the court helps you get a bed.  Most addicts cannot get a bed and are on waitlists. There are more who need treatment than available and some OD before they get a bed.  The court can expedite that process, by using court resources.  Another night on the streets could result in death.

But, if you have a problem with what that poster said, you might address him or send him a personal message.     


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 14, 2015, 08:48:22 PM

Emily - Landy had a client list including Alice Cooper, Richard Harris, Rod Steiger and Gig Young.  He was the therapist to the stars.  It looked good.  Better than it was.  "If we knew then what we know now" - well who knew?  Landy convinced a judge to get exclusive control.
What does treating Alice Cooper have to do with one's credentials? I know Melinda Ledbetter got flack for wondering why no one sought reputable care, why no one consulted people who work within the profession, but it's a good question. Why didn't they? Everyone knows you go to two different reputable institutions for opinions before you get surgery. How about before signing your spouse/brother/son's entire life over to someone? It's not a 20/20 hindsight thing. It's just: have the sense and the willingness to do a modicum of research before you dump someone you supposedly care about into the power of a renegade. And in any case, don't dump them into the power of hired hoods.
Landy convinced a judge to get exclusive control because the family requested it. The judge could not have acted without the family's request. Indeed, thanks for the reminder that the family actually did go through the red tape and did get a civil commitment, so our previous volley is moot. Even though it was the dark ages, the family had BW civilly committed to Landy.  Unfortunately, they couldn't be bothered to find decent care for his commitment. They had him committed to a wolf.

What he said may be offensive to you.  I can't help that.  I am uncomfortable not knowing the totality of the circumstances and opining.  And I am not familiar with Silver Spring.  McLean's does have a certain reputation that has fallen off lately as regards detox and follow up treatment for "the commoner." 

Silver Spring is a lovely song. Silver Hill is a psychiatric care institution.


All patients are not created equally.  If you private pay, there might be a different level of care and aggressive treatment and length of care.  Not so much for those who can't. They get the three-day "spin dry" detox, and get tossed out into many questionable follow up "sober houses" that are unregulated. 
I suspect Brian and Dennis Wilson's family could have afforded the former.

Were the people involved interested in out of state care?  And, in order to commit a person to care you do need court approval or the  cooperation of the patient.  You are depriving a person of a liberty interest. And the patient is not on-board. It used to be that the philosophy was that the addict had some control of self-determination and choice.  Now, if it is deemed that you are unfit (by a court or other doctor) to take care of yourself and won't come off drugs, then you lose your freedom to protect yourself.   Now a judge decides.
Regarding out-of-state care: I expect there were decent facilities in CA. I just mentioned ones in the Northeast because that's where I'm from so it's what I know. But, if CA strangely had no decent care available, the choice between good out-of-state care and a jail run by Rocky Pamplin or Eugene Landy should be easy to make, if you are actually interested in the well-being of your family member.
They got court approval for Landy. They went through the red tape. Again, thank you for reminding me. They'd decided to deprive BW of his liberty. The judge made a decision. Unfortunately, the family didn't bother to find decent care.


If you come in with a private pay plan, you get to pick the provider.  If you don't have those resources the court helps you get a bed.  Most addicts cannot get a bed and are on waitlists. There are more who need treatment than available and some OD before they get a bed.  The court can expedite that process, by using court resources.  Another night on the streets could result in death.

But, if you have a problem with what that poster said, you might address him or send him a personal message.     
We're talking about Brian and Dennis Wilson. I don't think private care was beyond their means. They paid for Landy. From what I've read he charged, probably both B & D could've been in private care for the same cost.

I did address the poster.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 15, 2015, 06:36:12 AM

Emily - Landy had a client list including Alice Cooper, Richard Harris, Rod Steiger and Gig Young.  He was the therapist to the stars.  It looked good.  Better than it was.  "If we knew then what we know now" - well who knew?  Landy convinced a judge to get exclusive control. (That was the client list. It is like an endorsement. It means something like the old Good Housekeeping seal of approval.)
I know Melinda Ledbetter got flack for wondering why no one sought reputable care, why no one consulted people who work within the profession...How about before signing your spouse/brother/son's entire life over to someone? It's not a 20/20 hindsight thing. It's just: have the sense and the willingness to do a modicum of research before you dump someone you supposedly care about into the power of a renegade. And in any case, don't dump them into the power of hired hoods.
 Unfortunately, they couldn't be bothered to find decent care for his commitment. They had him committed to a wolf.
Silver Spring is a lovely song. (Silver Spring is the equivalent of the BB's Leaving This Town) My bad :lol
[/quote]
I suspect Brian and Dennis Wilson's family could have afforded the former.
[/quote]
if you are actually interested in the well-being of your family member.
[/quote]
Emily - blaming people is pointless and without context. In the 1970's there was little "methadone maintenance" in the US and a bad attitude towards it. I taught adult ed (my first teaching job) next door to a newly opened Methadone clinic, in an urban setting in the 70's.  And some of my students "got their dose" at lunchtime.   It didn't come to the fore until AIDS was related to IV drug users and Methadone was an orally prepared drink that addicted people had to get daily, under medical supervision without needle sharing to transmit HIV.  I never saw Brian not in control because I didn't see him during those reported tumultuous years.

And, I am not talking about Brian but Dennis because I saw him hauled off a stage in the late 70's with my own two eyes. Hunky-dunky bright-eyed surfer-drummer god, whom you can hear girls screaming for in the 1967ish Youtubes. Dennis! Your father would have told you about how the girls screamed for Dennis.  He went though his money and lost or sold off his BRI shares for debt. Fired multiple times by the band.  His boat was gone.  Who was in charge of him? What a question! Saying that no one cared enough to get him (or them) what they needed is just wrong.  It seemed all those who loved him found he was "beyond their reach" despite many attempts to pull him off the edge of the cliff.

In mentioning Melinda's looking for help with a "fresh set of eyes" as compared to a teenaged wife (Marilyn) - that is a huge and unfair comparison, as a "fresh perspective" is empowering.  There were at least 20 years between those two eras.  Melinda took another "less traveled road - that made all the difference." (Robert Frost) Addiction has been made to be a shameful burden on addicts.  It was widely thought that they had poor willpower.  There was no NA network - as is now.  And plenty of undiagnosed or wrongly diagnosed behavioral illness.

The doctors were ignorant. Some still are.  Now you have high profile docs and HBO drug court specials, and those who can pay, do.  Or their parents mortgage their homes to try to save their kids with private care that costs upwards of at least $500 a day.  That era had little to nothing.  It was the Dark Ages. Even for the rich.  And this is almost the Age of Enlightenment.  Almost. A lot of this in my opinion is a function of luck and/or timing.  

Luck - if a family would have Narcan in hand, as is routinely given to families now to stop an OD.

Timing - if the EMT gets to an addict's house in time to give CPR and Narcan.

Luck - if an addict can have a support system that can help them get back and stay on their feet.  

Timing - getting to the hotline in time to get an open bed for detox.

Brian, luckily ended up with both. Dennis, unfortunately had neither.  Brian had a guardian angel.  Dennis is a guardian angel.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on December 15, 2015, 06:45:09 AM
I never understood the full accreditation of 'stars' on this board. Brian gets 10*, Honoured Guests 6* Mods 5*. Should we upgrade Rocky to a 2* ^-^


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: wantsomecorn on December 15, 2015, 10:35:18 AM
Gosh, in order to generate exposure for the potential publication of his book, perhaps Rocky would like to join the Smiley Smile board so as to engage in dialogue with the members here.  >:D >:D


8)It would be remiss of me not to thank you for inviting me to join this website...THANK YOU... whomever you are? Did you create this website? You can email me personally if you like!  :hat I did'nt find out about this website until last week...A young  lady, from technical support at T.W.C., googled me while I was on the line with her and informed me of Smiley Smile. I called Stephen Love, my favorite person, and told him of it. He discovered that someone from the website "Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love) has posted a couple of his posts on this site... we would like to thank him as well...Good on ya mate. Before closing... I would like to say... There sure are some opinionated  uninformed people in this world. Just for the record I would like to say that Stephen Love saved Brian Wilson's life... when Brian's wife Marylin found  Brian in bed ... offering his seven year old daughter, Wendy, heroin... she absolutely freaked out and called Stephen, then Beach Boys manager, threatening to have Brian committed! Stephen pleaded with her to give him a chance to save Brian! He always took an extreme hard stand against DRUGS!!! He said he knew the exact right persons to keep DRUGS OUT OF BRIAN'S LIFE!!! An enormously CHALLENGING task... given Brian's fame and fortune... and addiction to drugs. Not to mention Dennis and Carl...who though drugs were all fun and games!!!

Rocky, do you still talk to Mike, Steve, or Brian?



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on December 15, 2015, 10:39:53 AM
I only have one question for rocky pamplin. If it had been Brian giving Dennis drugs, what, if anything, would you have done?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 15, 2015, 10:46:55 AM
I only have one question for rocky pamplin. If it had been Brian giving Dennis drugs, what, if anything, would you have done?
Actually, it was, according to Rocky's story above. Brian was buying. Dennis was the delivery boy, paid in kind.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on December 15, 2015, 10:56:14 AM
I only have one question for rocky pamplin. If it had been Brian giving Dennis drugs, what, if anything, would you have done?
Actually, it was, according to Rocky's story above. Brian was buying. Dennis was the delivery boy, paid in kind.
Ok, I'll rephrase the question. If it had been Brian being the one continually giving Dennis drugs, making him sick and unable to do his job in the group, risking his health and his life, etc. What would Rocky have done?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 15, 2015, 11:04:00 AM

I only have one question for rocky pamplin. If it had been Brian giving Dennis drugs, what, if anything, would you have done?
Actually, it was, according to Rocky's story above. Brian was buying. Dennis was the delivery boy, paid in kind.
I don't mean to be facetious, and I'll leave your question at the bottom so it's not buried by my response, what you are describing in your question could well be what was happening. I mean, do we have any information about who was giving it to whom? Brian paid; Dennis picked it up; they both used. If one wants an "evil Brian" spin, one applies it, and vice versa. Which, I think, kind of answers the question. They chose to spin that it's Dennis' fault and would have done in any case.

Ognir Rrats asks: Ok, I'll rephrase the question. If it had been Brian being the one continually giving Dennis drugs, making him sick and unable to do his job in the group, risking his health and his life, etc. What would Rocky have done?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 15, 2015, 12:30:37 PM
I had a read on the 'Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love)' site mentioned by RockRush3. Wow, if that is the Steve Love posting there definitely is no love lost with Mike.

On a lighter note, I found this gem from 2012 that shows it wasn't all bad between Mike and Brian that year. :)

in part...

250Disappointed at y'all on July 24, 2012 said

 I got tickets, and thanks to having a dear friend that worked at a local concert venue, I actually got backstage and met them.

It was the thrill of my life. When I first approached them, Brian Wilson was in conversation with his cousin Mike Love. Upon approaching, Mike (who was finishing up some kind of story) left his cousin Brian in hysterics. Brian Wilson was laughing so hard that he was almost in tears. It was intense because I hadn’t seen Brian Wilson show any signs of emotion in any interview I had seen in nearly 20 years. But there he was hamming it up with his cousin and having the time of his life. I approached Brian and asked him for an autograph. I told him what a great singer he was and he let out a strange loud laugh and exclaimed, “Well, I’ve had 50 years of practice!” Mike, who was speaking with another fan, called out to his cousin, “Settle down over there Wilson!” To which Brian went into hysterics again. I got to meet Mike thenafter and found him to be a truly engaging and seemingly decent fellow. We spoke about his time in India with the Beatles, and he told me it changed his life and continues to effect him to this very day. These were two guys who seemed to have completely come to peace with each other and clearly were enjoying each other’s company.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 15, 2015, 12:32:06 PM
 :)   Emily, first of all I got cut off before I could finish my email to you. The last thing I was trying to convey was that after diving and drinking for several hour's...Dennis ate a turkey sandwich and took a nap and started drinking and diving again... at "FIVE FIFTEEN" in the afternoon... on his second drunk of the day...when he Drowned... his BLOOD ALCOHOL LEVEL was point 26.Three times the legal limit to drive...as I'm sure you know! You ask WHY someone didn't go through legal channels to get Dennis involuntarily hospitalized... To be perfectly honest with you... I don't know!  Dennis had personal managers... they all did... but Dennis would FIRE anyone who tried to do anything to him he didn't want to do! I understand the term "involuntarily" but I can only guess "in those times" it wasn't as easy as one might think! These guys were RICH and FAMOUS at an early age... Dennis was 16 years old and didn't even finish High School when Brian's Music exploded on the scene.They were living the California Dream...the California  Myth  as I refer to it... that turned into the CALIFORNIA NIGHTMARE   In the sixties, as I'm sure you know, Drugs were prevalent...and THE THING TO DO!!! Nobody was stopping Elvis...Jim Morrison...Jimmy Hendrix...or Janis Joplin either... and countless others! IF YOU CAN TELL the readers the answer...I'm sure they would all like to know. And I don't just mean the technical aspect of involuntary action...But how do you prevent the client who's paying you...From stopping paying you... and have a restraining order SERVED on them?   :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 15, 2015, 12:47:50 PM
I'm just about to get on the road, so this will be briefer than I'd like (but probably everyone else will be pleased), but I guess I was thinking of family members getting a civil commitment rather than employees.
It is untrue that it was more difficult at that time.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 15, 2015, 01:14:28 PM
I'm just about to get on the road, so this will be briefer than I'd like (but probably everyone else will be pleased), but I guess I was thinking of family members getting a civil commitment rather than employees.
It is untrue that it was more difficult at that time.
Emily - do you have a specific legal standard you are asserting?  

As far as civil commitments, I can tell you that they are divided "roughly" thusly.

So, I will paraphrase...for a mental health commitment, in my state, a psychiatrist has to sign off (or a hospital on their own authority) can sign off on a 72 hour "hold" for an assessment.  Three days unless there is a further finding that requires further hospitalization and commitment.  

Now for drugs or alcohol, if the "patient" or substance abuser (drugs or alcohol) presents him or herself "voluntarily" they can get "up to 17 days" in patient, if a family or friend petitions a court for "involuntary commitment" for treatment.  There are some people who have "seen the light" and cannot get a detox bed, because there is always a shortage, and the court can help make that happen.

That means, "before" the hearing (where the alleged substance abuser gets a court-appointed lawyer (because it is a liberty interest) if they ask for one) the judge asks that person (who would have been "arrested" to be brought in front of the judge for the hearing.  So before anything happens, the judge asks if they want to go in "voluntarily," and if they don't, they have their official but (non criminal) hearing, to determine if they have no control over their use of drugs or alcohol and are a danger to themselves and/or others.  

At that point, the doctor (court psychiatrist) speaks to the court.  S/he has already spoken to the arrestee, the petitioner/s and has written a report.  If, after the hearing, the judge believes that the person is "not actively using" or a danger to him/herself then they are released.  If the judge finds the respondent (the arrested person) is using drugs or alcohol they get 30 days at the maximum, and are brought back after that time before the judge before they are released.  

There is no penalty.  This does not affect anything criminal.   I have seen these hearings go either way.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 15, 2015, 02:11:53 PM
FdP - much of what you say has an unspoken premise that the prospective patient has limited resources, so wouldn't apply in this instance. Regardless of the process, the law in nearly every state has been adjusted during the period in question to tighten the standards by which a judge may determine that a patient requires involuntary commitment.
As you say, the law regarding this has become more progressive.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 15, 2015, 02:29:36 PM
FdP - much of what you say has an unspoken premise that the prospective patient has limited resources, so wouldn't apply in this instance. Regardless of the process, the law in nearly every state has been adjusted during the period in question to tighten the standards by which a judge may determine that a patient requires involuntary commitment.
As you say, the law regarding this has become more progressive.

Emily - doctors are licensed state by state.  Even with the VA, which is federal, the VA psychiatrist works with the local courts in the various counties, when they have vets who require treatment.

And, even if you have a billion dollars and refuse to stop using drugs or alcohol, and get treatment, the family or others with "standing" can petition the court.  It does apply in all cases whether you are have no money or a lot of money.  

The state legislature decides on legislation that the court uses to allow for a petition for involuntary commitment.  If anything the states one-by-one are permitting more latitude for inpatient involuntary treatment.  

If you have a specific case law site, I'd like to see it.  I don't know of a magic BB wand that could have been waved over Dennis to get him treatment.  



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 15, 2015, 02:34:26 PM
FdP - much of what you say has an unspoken premise that the prospective patient has limited resources, so wouldn't apply in this instance. Regardless of the process, the law in nearly every state has been adjusted during the period in question to tighten the standards by which a judge may determine that a patient requires involuntary commitment.
As you say, the law regarding this has become more progressive.

Emily - doctors are licensed state by state.  Even with the VA, which is federal, the psychiatrist works with the local courts in the various counties, when they have vets who require treatment.

And, even if you have a billion dollars and refuse to stop using drugs or alcohol, and get treatment, the family or others with "standing" can petition the court.  It does apply in all cases whether you are have no money or a lot of money.  

The state legislature decides on legislation that the court uses to allow for a petition for involuntary commitment.  If anything the states one-by-one are permitting more latitude for inpatient involuntary treatment.  

If you have a specific case law site, I'd like to see it.  I don't know of a magic BB wand that could have been waved over Dennis to get him treatment.  


Paragraphs 1 and 3 - yes, and?
Paragraph 2 - the court appointed lawyer and bed availability that you discussed are irrelevant due to resources.
Your question - read the documents that you and I cited earlier.
Eta: missed the last bit of paragraph 2. There may be a recent correction. There was a wild swing from family members could fairly easily get a court ordered judgment of incompetence and get someone institutionalized to nearly impossible.
Clearly, they got a judge to do so for BW.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 15, 2015, 03:03:46 PM
FdP - much of what you say has an unspoken premise that the prospective patient has limited resources, so wouldn't apply in this instance. Regardless of the process, the law in nearly every state has been adjusted during the period in question to tighten the standards by which a judge may determine that a patient requires involuntary commitment.
As you say, the law regarding this has become more progressive.

Emily - doctors are licensed state by state.  Even with the VA, which is federal, the psychiatrist works with the local courts in the various counties, when they have vets who require treatment.

And, even if you have a billion dollars and refuse to stop using drugs or alcohol, and get treatment, the family or others with "standing" can petition the court.  It does apply in all cases whether you are have no money or a lot of money.  

The state legislature decides on legislation that the court uses to allow for a petition for involuntary commitment.  If anything the states one-by-one are permitting more latitude for inpatient involuntary treatment.  

If you have a specific case law site, I'd like to see it.  I don't know of a magic BB wand that could have been waved over Dennis to get him treatment.  


Paragraphs 1 and 3 - yes, and?
Paragraph 2 - the court appointed lawyer and bed availability that you discussed are irrelevant due to resources.
Your question - read the documents that you and I cited earlier.
Emily - this goes back between 30 and 40 years.  It is not irrelevant.  There is utterly no time-frame context to your argument except the insistence that somehow the BB magic money wand could make problems go away.  There was a treatment void.  Addiction treatment still is a nascent area and there are plenty of funerals to prove that they are not getting it right yet.  

There was general ignorance about substance abuse in the 1970's and you have provided not one scintilla of evidence that there was treatment that was available, competent and consistent with the needs of anyone in need of treatment.  

Only that "no one cared enough to get a second opinion."  Second opinions in the 1970's were a brand-new concept and generally confined to cancer diagnoses and not for the lowest end of the food chain; addiction and mental illness.  Most patients would not dare insult the doctor in front of them by asking for one in the 1960's and 1970's.  The doctor was next to God. It is now standard operating procedure because it is a good thing, but largely unused back then.  

There are ethical rules in medicine which address treating someone who has seen another physician dealing with conflicts of interest and lack of objectivity.  Now many insurers require second opinions for surgery to avoid a doc who is "knife happy." Second medical opinions happen when there is a matter in dispute.

That time-frame context might be checked that out before attacking or blaming those who some perceive to have been remiss in their family duties to seek "second opinions."    

This is a link to the state by state commitment standards.

Some, such as CA deal with both alcoholism and mental illness under one section.  Some states have different laws (chapters and sections) for alcoholism and mental health.  If you scroll down, CA is in the list with a comprehensive statute.

http://metntalillnesspolicy.org/studies/state-standards-involuntary-treatment.html 

As always, hope it copies... ;)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 15, 2015, 04:00:09 PM
 :)   I sent an email today to an avid reader... that I meant to  post on this website because it contained information I feel is important pertaining to the use of drugs! So I would like to recap some of that i material. In terms of my employment as a handler/bodyguard for Brian... When Marylin called Stephen Love,then Beach Boy manager,freaked out over walking in on Brian offering heroin to... Well...the readers know who (this is all a very sensitive subject to all in the know) The important thing to note is that Stephen pleaded and begged Marylin to give him ONE chance to save Brian before she had him committed! This highly unfortunate, obscure, situation was of the upmost  concern to all !!! Here is the most significant fact I would like to impart to the readers... Marylin made it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR to Stephen that he had ONE shot at this...and ONE SHOT ONLY! If Stephen couldn't hire the right people to achieve this MOST CHALLENGING TASK...Of keeping Drugs out of Brian's life that she would not hesitate. at this juncture , to have Brian COMMITTED to a MENTAL INSTITUTION. I think most people can understand her conviction in this DIRE situation... these are her nine and seven year old daughters! Stephen and Marylin gave Stan Love and I "OUR ORDERS"... Pure and simple... NO DRUGS of ANY KIND...ANY WHERE...BY ANYBODY...EVER...PERIOD...Is that understood? And we were reminded of this on a daily basis! And last but not least it was made all the more EXPLICITLY clear to Stan and I that more than anyone else...THIS MEANS "DENNIS"!!! Everybody loved Dennis... he was a charmer... but he was also INCORRIGIBLE! And you could never let your guard down around him. THAT WAS THE LAW!!!    :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 15, 2015, 04:05:41 PM
FdP - much of what you say has an unspoken premise that the prospective patient has limited resources, so wouldn't apply in this instance. Regardless of the process, the law in nearly every state has been adjusted during the period in question to tighten the standards by which a judge may determine that a patient requires involuntary commitment.
As you say, the law regarding this has become more progressive.

Emily - doctors are licensed state by state.  Even with the VA, which is federal, the psychiatrist works with the local courts in the various counties, when they have vets who require treatment.

And, even if you have a billion dollars and refuse to stop using drugs or alcohol, and get treatment, the family or others with "standing" can petition the court.  It does apply in all cases whether you are have no money or a lot of money.  

The state legislature decides on legislation that the court uses to allow for a petition for involuntary commitment.  If anything the states one-by-one are permitting more latitude for inpatient involuntary treatment.  

If you have a specific case law site, I'd like to see it.  I don't know of a magic BB wand that could have been waved over Dennis to get him treatment.  


Paragraphs 1 and 3 - yes, and?
Paragraph 2 - the court appointed lawyer and bed availability that you discussed are irrelevant due to resources.
Your question - read the documents that you and I cited earlier.
Emily - this goes back between 30 and 40 years.  It is not irrelevant.  There is utterly no time-frame context to your argument except the insistence that somehow the BB magic money wand could make problems go away.  There was a treatment void.  Addiction treatment still is a nascent area and there are plenty of funerals to prove that they are not getting it right yet.  

There was general ignorance about substance abuse in the 1970's and you have provided not one scintilla of evidence that there was treatment that was available, competent and consistent with the needs of anyone in need of treatment.  

Only that "no one cared enough to get a second opinion."  Second opinions in the 1970's were a brand-new concept and generally confined to cancer diagnoses and not for the lowest end of the food chain; addiction and mental illness.  Most patients would not dare insult the doctor in front of them by asking for one in the 1960's and 1970's.  The doctor was next to God. It is now standard operating procedure because it is a good thing, but largely unused back then.  

There are ethical rules in medicine which address treating someone who has seen another physician dealing with conflicts of interest and lack of objectivity.  Now many insurers require second opinions for surgery to avoid a doc who is "knife happy." Second medical opinions happen when there is a matter in dispute.

That time-frame context might be checked that out before attacking or blaming those who some perceive to have been remiss in their family duties to seek "second opinions."    

This is a link to the state by state commitment standards.

Some, such as CA deal with both alcoholism and mental illness under one section.  Some states have different laws (chapters and sections) for alcoholism and mental health.  If you scroll down, CA is in the list with a comprehensive statute.

http://metntalillnesspolicy.org/studies/state-standards-involuntary-treatment.html 

As always, hope it copies... ;)
i'm on a phone which doesn't lend itself well to this, so bear with me.
I don't see the relevance of the legislative or medical licensing processes.
The evidence is in the 3 documents linked.
The link you provided won't open on my phone but if it's listing current law, I don't see its relevance
An example of someone receiving treatment involuntarily as requested by family-members in Los Angeles in the 70's is Brian Wilson.
Receiving second medical opinions has been standard advice for as long as I've been around. And the adults I knew in the 70s followed it.  It's just simple common sense.
The BB magic money could certainly pay for an attorney (and has a lot) and a bed in a treatment facility, instead of thugs and charlatans.
I've never in my life read something as cavalier about violence as Mr. Pamplin's post above. Until yesterday the naïveté excuse was almost palatable. But a five year old would recognize that Mr. Pamplin is not a suitable guardian.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 15, 2015, 04:09:29 PM
I sent an email today to an avid reader... that I meant to  post on this website because it contained information I feel is important pertaining to the use of drugs! So I would like to recap some of that i material. In terms of my employment as a handler/bodyguard for Brian... When Marylin called Stephen Love,then Beach Boy manager,freaked out over walking in on Brian offering heroin to... Well...the readers know who (this is all a very sensitive subject to all in the know) The important thing to note is that Stephen pleaded and begged Marylin to give him ONE chance to save Brian before she had him committed! This highly unfortunate, obscure, situation was of the upmost  concern to all !!! Here is the most significant fact I would like to impart to the readers... Marylin made it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR to Stephen that he had ONE shot at this...and One shot only! If Stephen couldn't hire the right people to achieve this MOST CHALLENGING TASK...Of keeping Drugs out of Brian's life that she would not hesitate. at this juncture , to have Brian COMMITTED to a MENTAL INSTITUTION. I think most people can understand her conviction in this DIRE situation... these are her nine and seven year old daughters! Stephen and Marylin gave Stan Love and I "OUR ORDERS"... Pure and simple... NO DRUGS of ANY KIND...ANY WHERE...BY ANYBODY...EVER...PERIOD...Is that understood? And we were reminded of this on a daily basis! And last but not least it was made all the more EXPLICITLY clear to Stan and I that more than anyone else...THIS MEANS "DENNIS"!!! Everybody loved Dennis... he was a charmer... but he was also INCORRIGIBLE! And you could never let your guard down around him. THAT WAS THE LAW-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's a shame that Stephen Love thought it was best to hire muscle rather than follow up with what Marilyn Rutherford-Wilson was proposing. A quality treatment center would have been vastly better.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 15, 2015, 05:29:50 PM
I'm not taking sides, I don't condone violence, and institutionalizing would've been the best approach with Brian and Dennis.

I understand why Marilyn Wilson or any other family member was apprehensive about getting professional help for Brian and Dennis. I work with individuals with emotional and physical disabilities, and I see the process every day. It can be heartbreaking. I see families put through the wringer before finally asking for help. It's like "this new diet will help", "this (physical) exercise program will improve things", "these new friends will be a positive influence", "getting a job will make him/her more productive", "taking the computer and video games away is the key", "they need religion or spirituality in their life", and on and on. Finally, when everything is tried, and nothing seems to work, the parent or guardian or family member or friend will come forward and ask for help. It is such a huge step, the most difficult decision many of these people will ever have to make. I feel for them. Everybody has the basic dream or hope that their son or daughter, or husband or wife, or brother or sister, or friend - just be "normal". I have the upmost respect and admiration for people who come forward and ask for help.

And, like I said, I think I can understand what Marilyn Wilson and Dennis' wives, friends, and associates were going through. This "problem" just didn't happen overnight. Brian and Dennis were addicts for years, and with Brian you were also dealing with mental illness. Can you imagine what Marilyn Wilson went through, how she lived day-to-day, from 1964-1978? Can you imagine what Dennis' wives went through? I imagine they tried just about everything, things that would shock us. Sadly, the one thing they didn't pull off, and I'm not blaming them, was getting Brian and Dennis into treatment.

Of course seeking professional help would've been more beneficial than hiring "bodyguards". I don't think anybody is disputing that. But, as a fan, as a diehard, as an outsider, it sure looked like Rocky and Stan were succeeding with Brian. He lost weight the right way, he was grooming himself, wearing that athletic wear (in style at that time), he was singing better, playing bass on stage, and, other than his hospitalization in late 1978, was more of a Beach Boy than he had been for years...or since. And, after Stan and Rocky were dismissed, it was all downhill leading to Landy's return.

I know some people reading this will think that I agree with the decision to employ Stan and Rocky. I don't and that's not my point. I'll repeat that there was a better way to handle the problem(s). But, it also appears that Stan and Rocky did have some success. It was David Leaf, one of Brian Wilson's best friends, who wrote about how Brian was really "coming back" and how great it was to see. However,  these "bodyguard" situations are not new and they seldom last long term. Rocky mentioned Jim Morrison in one of his posts. The Doors did hire a bodyguard for Jim; his name was Tony Funches, but it didn't really work out. I would be curious how many other "rock stars" tried the bodyguard route and how much success they had with it.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 15, 2015, 05:34:32 PM
FdP - much of what you say has an unspoken premise that the prospective patient has limited resources, so wouldn't apply in this instance. Regardless of the process, the law in nearly every state has been adjusted during the period in question to tighten the standards by which a judge may determine that a patient requires involuntary commitment.
As you say, the law regarding this has become more progressive.
Emily - doctors are licensed state by state.  Even with the VA, which is federal, the psychiatrist works with the local courts in the various counties, when they have vets who require treatment.

And, even if you have a billion dollars and refuse to stop using drugs or alcohol, and get treatment, the family or others with "standing" can petition the court.  It does apply in all cases whether you are have no money or a lot of money.  

The state legislature decides on legislation that the court uses to allow for a petition for involuntary commitment.  If anything the states one-by-one are permitting more latitude for inpatient involuntary treatment.  

If you have a specific case law site, I'd like to see it.  I don't know of a magic BB wand that could have been waved over Dennis to get him treatment.

Paragraphs 1 and 3 - yes, and?
Paragraph 2 - the court appointed lawyer and bed availability that you discussed are irrelevant due to resources.
Your question - read the documents that you and I cited earlier.
Emily - this goes back between 30 and 40 years.  It is not irrelevant.  There is utterly no time-frame context to your argument except the insistence that somehow the BB magic money wand could make problems go away.  There was a treatment void.  Addiction treatment still is a nascent area and there are plenty of funerals to prove that they are not getting it right yet.  

There was general ignorance about substance abuse in the 1970's and you have provided not one scintilla of evidence that there was treatment that was available, competent and consistent with the needs of anyone in need of treatment.  

Only that "no one cared enough to get a second opinion."  Second opinions in the 1970's were a brand-new concept and generally confined to cancer diagnoses and not for the lowest end of the food chain; addiction and mental illness.  Most patients would not dare insult the doctor in front of them by asking for one in the 1960's and 1970's.  The doctor was next to God. It is now standard operating procedure because it is a good thing, but largely unused back then.  

There are ethical rules in medicine which address treating someone who has seen another physician dealing with conflicts of interest and lack of objectivity.  Now many insurers require second opinions for surgery to avoid a doc who is "knife happy." Second medical opinions happen when there is a matter in dispute.

That time-frame context might be checked that out before attacking or blaming those who some perceive to have been remiss in their family duties to seek "second opinions."    

This is a link to the state by state commitment standards.

Some, such as CA deal with both alcoholism and mental illness under one section.  Some states have different laws (chapters and sections) for alcoholism and mental health.  If you scroll down, CA is in the list with a comprehensive statute.

http://metntalillnesspolicy.org/studies/state-standards-involuntary-treatment.html  

As always, hope it copies... ;)
i'm on a phone which doesn't lend itself well to this, so bear with me.
I don't see the relevance of the legislative or medical licensing processes.
The evidence is in the 3 documents linked.
The link you provided won't open on my phone but if it's listing current law, I don't see its relevance
An example of someone receiving treatment involuntarily as requested by family-members in Los Angeles in the 70's is Brian Wilson.
Receiving second medical opinions has been standard advice for as long as I've been around. And the adults I knew in the 70s followed it.  It's just simple common sense.
The BB magic money could certainly pay for an attorney (and has a lot) and a bed in a treatment facility, instead of thugs and charlatans.
I've never in my life read something as cavalier about violence as Mr. Pamplin's post above. Until yesterday the naïveté excuse was almost palatable. But a five year old would recognize that Mr. Pamplin is not a suitable guardian.
Emily - when you have a chance - and not on a phone, just read through the section on CA.  It is not rocket science.  It is absolutely relevant.  Those laws relate to medical intervention.  You just can't lock someone up indefinitely because "his wife said so" for whatever reason alleged.  

We are a nation of laws.  Even Marilyn could not snap her fingers and have her husband's liberty taken away.  She would have to go through a process, for involuntary commitment, likely with a doctor who was a treating physician, and likely who had admitting privileges.  And there are standards that must be met.  

And, for your relatives from the 70's, better the 50's and 60's, and ask them when "second opinions" became an accepted practice.  I can tell you that insurance did not always cover them until public policy changed with regard medicine.  For example, when Cesarean rates were about 60% in certain hospitals, with certain docs, inquiries were made as to whether they were "medically necessary." OB/GYNS got more money for surgical deliveries as opposed to natural ones.  That second opinion thing evolved over time.  It got rid of some medical corruption in certain areas.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on December 15, 2015, 05:44:31 PM
It's all incredibly sad, because I'm sure that *somewhere* on planet Earth in the 1970s and 1980s there existed a person, people, a program(s), etc that would have had success in getting both Brian and Denny back on their feet. However, who those people were, what program(s) this would have been is not something that anyone can pinpoint specifically.

It's easy to speak in general terms about "there had to be a better way", but nobody at the time necessarily knew what that way was. And even now, it's not like we can look at an old 1970s phone book and pull up a name of a center, and know that Brian or Denny would have responded better to that particular center. Maybe yes, maybe no. The only option I could possibly think of would be if the family went on a radio show and asked the public to be pointed to the best way. And even then, they'd likely have been hit up by a tidal wave of 99% charlatans on the level of Landy or even worse.

Ultimately, as sad as it is, the regretful-in-hindsight choices that were made (beating Denny up + rehiring Landy for Landy II) might have been the best, desperate choices that anyone knew of at the time. I think that the family members must have been so desperate for action to take place right then, at a very critical moment in time, that they felt they'd run out of time to casually try out option after option after option without results, knowing full well that each delay could cause more drugs to be consumed, and the fear was surely that this drug usage - if not immediately dealt with by any means necessary - would lead to death.

If, for example, Marilyn had tried every option that she knew about - and I'm sure she must have asked a great many people for advice, and did not know of any better option, then I'm not sure what else could have been done. Being unaware of a better option was simply a fact; people did their best, and I'm while I'm certainly not trying to defend any wrongdoings or line-crossings that were ultimately detrimental in other ways to Denny and Brian, I think it's impossible for any of us to know with any degree of certainty just *how* a better scenario could have transpired than what actually did.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 15, 2015, 05:47:04 PM
I'm not taking sides, I don't condone violence, and institutionalizing would've been the best approach with Brian and Dennis.

I understand why Marilyn Wilson or any other family member was apprehensive about getting professional help for Brian and Dennis. I work with individuals with emotional and physical disabilities, and I see the process every day. It can be heartbreaking. I see families put through the wringer before finally asking for help. It's like "this new diet will help", "this (physical) exercise program will improve things", "these new friends will be a positive influence", "getting a job will make him/her more productive", "taking the computer and video games away is the key", "they need religion or spirituality in their life", and on and on. Finally, when everything is tried, and nothing seems to work, the parent or guardian or family member or friend will come forward and ask for help. It is such a huge step, the most difficult decision many of these people will ever have to make. I feel for them. Everybody has the basic dream or hope that their son or daughter, or husband or wife, or brother or sister, or friend - just be "normal". I have the upmost respect and admiration for people who come forward and ask for help.

And, like I said, I think I can understand what Marilyn Wilson and Dennis' wives, friends, and associates were going through. This "problem" just didn't happen overnight. Brian and Dennis were addicts for years, and with Brian you were also dealing with mental illness. Can you imagine what Marilyn Wilson went through, how she lived day-to-day, from 1964-1978? Can you imagine what Dennis' wives went through? I imagine they tried just about everything, things that would shock us. Sadly, the one thing they didn't pull off, and I'm not blaming them, was getting Brian and Dennis into treatment.

Of course seeking professional help would've been more beneficial than hiring "bodyguards". I don't think anybody is disputing that. But, as a fan, as a diehard, as an outsider, it sure looked like Rocky and Stan were succeeding with Brian. He lost weight the right way, he was grooming himself, wearing that athletic wear (in style at that time), he was singing better, playing bass on stage, and, other than his hospitalization in late 1978, was more of a Beach Boy than he had been for years...or since. And, after Stan and Rocky were dismissed, it was all downhill leading to Landy's return.

I know some people reading this will think that I agree with the decision to employ Stan and Rocky. I don't and that's not my point. I'll repeat that there was a better way to handle the problem(s). But, it also appears that Stan and Rocky did have some success. It was David Leaf, one of Brian Wilson's best friends, who wrote about how Brian was really "coming back" and how great it was to see. However,  these "bodyguard" situations are not new and they seldom last long term. Rocky mentioned Jim Morrison in one of his posts. The Doors did hire a bodyguard for Jim; his name was Tony Funches, but it didn't really work out. I would be curious how many other "rock stars" tried the bodyguard route and how much success they had with it.
Sheriff - that excellent post was great with the way in which you explained how the family is torn to shreds when they have to commit a family member and how they long for normalcy.  Recently, I observed a court hearing where a spouse petitioned to have her husband involuntarily committed for drugs and alcohol and it was devastating to see how much she had gone through to get to the point that this situation was completely beyond her control.  His addiction issues had escalated to the point he was no longer functioning as a responsible adult.  The wife wanted her husband "back." You could tell that it took everything in her to file that petition.

The judge weighed the wife's testimony, that of the court psychiatrist, and of course the husband contested the petition, with a court-appointed attorney, but the judge could see that this petition should be granted and ordered treatment.  It is never done lightly and is almost always the last resort so the person is not a danger to him or herself and the general public.  Outpatient treatment is usually the first line of defense, but not always the solution.

Thanks for that post.   ;)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 15, 2015, 06:28:53 PM
RockRush3. A small detail I know but the name is Marilyn, not Marylin.  :police:


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 15, 2015, 06:38:31 PM
Sheriff John Stone – that was an excellent post. It can be a very long, hard road before some people reach the point that they realize that a family member needs professional care; a longer stretch before they come to the conclusion that that care should be full-time.
But with Brian and Dennis Wilson it’s pretty clear that they’d reached that point. The Eugene Landy set-up was precisely that. The problem is they chose a person who operated outside of the profession without the history or depth of resources of an institution.
With Dennis Wilson, it’s been stated that people made threats, cajoled, etc. to get him to voluntarily be institutionalized.
So, in both instances, they concluded that the individuals needed professional, full-time care. With Brian Wilson, they got involuntary full-time care.
Once you’ve reached that decision, and gone through the legal process, why not do some research to ensure you are getting good care?

CenturyDeprived – But nobody tried any centers. Why would one not try the route that those in the profession would tell you is the most likely to succeed? We don’t of course know whether it would have been successful, but the odds would’ve been much higher if they went to an institution that had a track-record of success with similar cases and a depth of resources.
It’s easy to say “there had to be a better way” because there demonstrably was a better way. People here act like we’re talking about the 1870s. We’re not.
You say the only option would be to go on the radio and ask. How about going to psychologists at the research and care institutions in Los Angeles and ask? Why is that so hard?
It’s not just hindsight that says, to me, getting someone to physically threaten and beat them up is not the best choice. Regarding Landy, again, why did they go to some renegade? Why not seek advice from people who are engaged with the entire field? I can’t imagine anyone at one of the reputable psychiatric institutions in the region would’ve recommended Landy, so if they asked, they seem not to have taken the advice.
Fille de Plage, I may look at it later. But current law is not pertinent to the 70’s.  Marilyn could not snap her fingers and have her husband’s liberty taken away, but she did go through the process to do so successfully. So, whether or not it was easy is kind of moot regarding Marilyn and Brian – easy or hard, she did it.
Regarding second opinions, my grandmother was a schizophrenic morphine addict who was involuntarily institutionalized in the 60’s. The legal process was simple. The choice of institution was pondered over, my dad and his siblings did their research, got some opinions and chose Silver Hill.
My step family has a recurring history of schizophrenia with a few institutionalizations. At least one in each of the last three generations (knock on wood not the current one). They made efforts to find the right institution.
Why would we think that people were stupider and more reckless 50 years ago than they are now? Why would people 50 years ago be less likely to care about the quality of the care their family members receive?
I just don’t understand this thinking.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 15, 2015, 07:27:42 PM
Regarding Landy, again, why did they go to some renegade? Why not seek advice from people who are engaged with the entire field? I can’t imagine anyone at one of the reputable psychiatric institutions in the region would’ve recommended Landy, so if they asked, they seem not to have taken the advice.

I think that Landy provided options to Marilyn that eased her fears, her apprehensions, and would accomplish her goals on what was best for Brian as a person - and as a Beach Boy. Remember, Landy wasn't fired (the first time) because of his treatment of Brian, it was because of exorbitant fees.

With Landy, instead of bringing Brian to the hospital, you brought the hospital to Brian. Again, I'm not criticizing Marilyn's decisions, but I think, to her, Landy covered all of the bases. By not institutionalizing Brian, you avoided the stigma of "that Beach Boy Brian Wilson is nuts". There were then, and still to some extent today, horror stories of the treatment of patients at institutions. Maybe Marilyn thought she would (unintentionally) choose the wrong one? How long would they "keep him in there"? Maybe he would come out a different person? Maybe it's just the drugs, not really mental illness? And on and on. I completely understand.

And, Landy had all the answers. Landy could make Brian lose a hundred and fifty pounds in a year; Brian couldn't do that in a hospital. Landy could get Brian off the drugs without subjecting Brian to those "crazy patients"; Landy would surround Brian with groovy people. And, Landy could get Brian back in the studio and back on the stage - quickly! In a couple of months? In a couple of weeks? I think it's naive to ignore that might've been a goal, and I'm not saying it was a bad or unrealistic goal, to be a productive person and return to something you love. I'm just not sure that a competent doctor would've recommended or even attempted that in such a short period of time.

Yes, with Landy grafted to Brian, you still had some public stigma of Brian being mentally ill. But, hey, Landy was the "Doctor To The Stars", so that might've eased the pain a little bit.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 15, 2015, 07:43:09 PM
Regarding Landy, again, why did they go to some renegade? Why not seek advice from people who are engaged with the entire field? I can’t imagine anyone at one of the reputable psychiatric institutions in the region would’ve recommended Landy, so if they asked, they seem not to have taken the advice.

I think that Landy provided options to Marilyn that eased her fears, her apprehensions, and would accomplish her goals on what was best for Brian as a person - and as a Beach Boy. Remember, Landy wasn't fired (the first time) because of his treatment of Brian, it was because of exorbitant fees.

With Landy, instead of bringing Brian to the hospital, you brought the hospital to Brian. Again, I'm not criticizing Marilyn's decisions, but I think, to her, Landy covered all of the bases. By not institutionalizing Brian, you avoided the stigma of "that Beach Boy Brian Wilson is nuts". There were then, and still to some extent today, horror stories of the treatment of patients at institutions. Maybe Marilyn thought she would (unintentionally) choose the wrong one? How long would they "keep him in there"? Maybe he would come out a different person? Maybe it's just the drugs, not really mental illness? And on and on. I completely understand.

And, Landy had all the answers. Landy could make Brian lose a hundred and fifty pounds in a year; Brian couldn't do that in a hospital. Landy could get Brian off the drugs without subjecting Brian to those "crazy patients"; Landy would surround Brian with groovy people. And, Landy could get Brian back in the studio and back on the stage - quickly! In a couple of months? In a couple of weeks? I think it's naive to ignore that might've been a goal, and I'm not saying it was a bad or unrealistic goal, to be a productive person and return to something you love. I'm just not sure that a competent doctor would've recommended or even attempted that in such a short period of time.

Yes, with Landy grafted to Brian, you still had some public stigma of Brian being mentally ill. But, hey, Landy was the "Doctor To The Stars", so that might've eased the pain a little bit.
Explaining the choice of Landy with naïveté is something that I've not reacted strongly to in the past. In isolation, I can see where someone very unsophisticated might make that choice, though reading contemporary articles indicate to me that the idea that Brian was nuts was already out there (and I remember as a kid that Brian Wilson's reputation was essentially that. The damage was done), but more importantly it was evident that Brian Wilson was living like a dog (a mistreated one at that). But, again, with the Pamplin writings here, it became clear to me that something worse than naïveté (not being pretentious, my phone is automatically accenting) was in effect. Because no one is naive enough to interact with someone like that and not recognize that they are hiring abuse.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 16, 2015, 11:18:12 AM
 :)   It seems there is some confusion as to who was doing what.. who was buying... who was giving what to who...etc...etc... JUST FOR THE RECORD... Carolyn Williams, Brian's live in nurse, who basically replaced Stan and I (Rocky) called Stan and told him that Dennis would come over to Brian's house on a regular basis... and BORROW money from Brian to buy COCAINE... and Dennis would SHARE that COCAINE with Brian!!! Is everyone clear on that? TWO things are apparent here... Carolyn Williams could not keep DRUGS out of Brian's life................. When Stan and I worked for Brian he NEVER EVER GOT COCAINE...or any other drugs.  The second thing that is apparent...  is that STAN AND I COULD KEEP DRUGS OUT OF BRIAN'S LIFE...That was the whole JOB DESCRIPTION !!! In order to SAVE BRIAN'S LIFE we needed to keep Brian DRUG FREE... and not have Marilyn  have Brian COMMITTED to a MENTAL INSTITUTION!!!    :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 16, 2015, 12:19:15 PM
 :)   There is another aspect that seems to have gotten lost...In reference to Dennis...as I have said ... everyone LOVED Dennis... he was a charmer... when he wanted to be...but he could also be an asshole...depending on his mood...towards the end... It was DEPENDING on weather or not he could get his DRUGS! Dennis had become a salacious dependent DRUG ADDICT... Not to mention his propensity for ALCOHOL... Dennis lived on Myers Rum and OJ...or Myers rum and Coke (the kind you drink) But make no mistake Dennis never turned down a hit or a bump... as it was commonly referred to in the 70's. Also...another aspect that has gotten lost is...The Beach Boys put Dennis in rehabs a number of times... three that I know about! But it was usually when he was completely broke and trying to borrow money from Carl, who was Dennis's closest family member, let us not forget that Carl was also Dennis's YOUNGER BROTHER... and Dennis could beat Carl up...Dennis was a hellion. But Dennis would stay in these REHABS for a day or two, get a little strength back, some sympathy...some encouragement...and some MONEY from the well intentions of friends...fans... or the latest phone number he had in his pocket from the guy that was buying him drinks the night before at some bar! The last REHAB...was a Beach Boy MANDATED 28 day INTERVENTION ... that the BEACH BOYS PAID FOR... Under one condition... that Dennis stay in the rehab the entire 28 days... Or he would not be allowed back in the Beach Boys! Dennis LOVED being a BEACH BOY... it was everything to him... it meant more to him than anything...except DRUGS! Most people know how addictive drugs are...and most unfortunately... tragically...Dennis was victim of this reality! Everyone around Dennis would have done anything for him... anything in there power to help him!!! But ADDICTION doesn't work that way...as you all know. Dennis needed to REACH WAY DOWN IN HIS SOUL...to find the METTLE to battle his VICES...but I can assure you Dennis is SORELY MISSED! :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 16, 2015, 05:15:54 PM
Rocky, I have a few questions for you:

1. How long did you play football with the Montreal Alouettes?

2. How did it come about that you recorded with Brian Wilson, and what songs did you sing on?

3. After your altercation with Carl Wilson in Australia (1978), was there any "talk" of you being terminated?

4. Why were you eventually terminated? Was it directly related to the Dennis beating?

5. What are you doing today? Do you have a Facebook page or website? Can you post a recent photo of yourself?
 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on December 16, 2015, 08:07:27 PM
Hey "Rockrush", I've gotta couple of questions, too.

1. In your book, do you discuss your relationship with myKe luHv?

2. If Dennis was so f#cked up when you found him,  how come ya had to put him through the meat grinder? Sounds like you were a bit overzealous in your attack, huh?

3. Do you compare yourself to the Loves when it comes to smacking people around when they're down?

 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on December 16, 2015, 09:42:51 PM
Ya...I've got some questions too Rocket.

1... Between you and Stan...how did you decide who would actually get the ONLY ball the 2 of you obviously shared on any given escapade?
2...When you encountered someone who was close to passing out cold were they still tough to beat up ... or between the 2 of you...did you still prevail?
3...You had nothing to do with the embezzlement...I'm sure?  That was just the 'boss'?  You know...Mr. "No Contest".
4...You smacked Carl upside the head 'cause Dennis could beat him up and steal money to buy drugs for Brian?  So this was just a preventitive measure?  Or you weren't man enough to accept a smaller, weaker, pacifist speaking [MAYBE] out of turn, who was obviously out of his gourd, and so you lost it, and cold-cocked him?  Even if he really was, and always has been your superior in EVERY way imaginable?

Sounds like quite the book. :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 17, 2015, 06:43:57 AM
Ya...I've got some questions too Rocket.

1... Between you and Stan...how did you decide who would actually get the ONLY ball the 2 of you obviously shared on any given escapade?
2...When you encountered someone who was close to passing out cold were they still tough to beat up ... or between the 2 of you...did you still prevail?
3...You had nothing to do with the embezzlement...I'm sure?  That was just the 'boss'?  You know...Mr. "No Contest".
4...You smacked Carl upside the head 'cause Dennis could beat him up and steal money to buy drugs for Brian?  So this was just a preventitive measure?  Or you weren't man enough to accept a smaller, weaker, pacifist speaking [MAYBE] out of turn, who was obviously out of his gourd, and so you lost it, and cold-cocked him?  Even if he really was, and always has been your superior in EVERY way imaginable?

Sounds like quite the book. :lol
best question ever.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on December 17, 2015, 10:13:03 AM
Well, if that was him, we've probably f***ed up again.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: MarcellaHasDirtyFeet on December 17, 2015, 10:39:03 AM
Well, if that was him, we've probably f***ed up again.

Yes, but think about how lucky we are that some of the posters were able to show off how witty they can be. Thank goodness they shared their opinion, as is their right. This board is better now that they've stood up and were counted among the righteous.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 17, 2015, 11:47:15 AM

Mr. Pamplin seems to have been willing to continue posting despite a pretty judgy conversation. I have been wondering, however, if anyone out there is going to strike up a dialog. It's beginning to seem not. I doubt he's any more willing to stick around for silence.
Well, I think Sheriff John Stone is making an authentic attempt. So there's one.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: The 4th Wilson Bro. on December 17, 2015, 12:14:06 PM
My only question for Mr. Pamplin would be:

Have you ever felt any regret for what you did to Carl Wilson that day (night?) in the hotel room in Australia?

That's an honest question, and if you decide at any point to revisit this thread, I very much look forward to you providing an honest answer.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on December 17, 2015, 12:38:16 PM
I think he needs to understand that he is one of the more infamous characters in the Beach Boys' history. I would go so far as to say that some of us hate him. Having said that I would like to hear his side of the story, such as it is.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 17, 2015, 01:58:21 PM
I have been asked several questions since I joined Smiley Smile...I will address some of them. First off I am curious as to who chose the websites name...Smiley Smile! For it gives the impression they are... IN THE KNOW...I could be in the wrong... I wasn't in the loop back then,,, But I think Marilyn's sister Diane Rovell may have come up with the term. When Brian didn't finish recording Smile...and retreated to bed for the next ten years...Stephen, Stan and I always encouraged Brian to revisit his earlier MASTERPIECE in the wings...Which he did some 35 years later with Musicians he hand picked... I can assure you they were all VIRTUOSO Musicians...Brian had an ear for Music that was unparalleled... EVEN Sir Paul McCartney will attest to that...as he made it known that he would love to write with Brian some day... They did rehearse some of their songs together and performed them. As far as my termination ... YES... there was talk of it in Australia after Carl said F_ _ _ You Rocky in front of David Frost and a room full of Paradine Production people...and yes Carl was DRUNK AS USUAL  and stuffing his face with cold cuts,from a service cart, that no one else was partaking of,which was what he was also doing when Stan and I first entered Mike's suite...for the HEROIN INCIDENT SHOW DOWN...Carl no sooner sees Stan and I as we walk in...when he blurts out, with a mouthful of cold cuts, I DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH NO HEROIN Rocky. To which I reply...then why did Merlin,a Paradine Production employee, come to me today at the sound check and confess that Brian keeps asking him  if he will get him more HEROIN...Carl, while chewing with his mouth open and full of cold cuts,spitting bit's and pieces on anyone within three feet... slurring his words shouts...I DON'T KNOW NOTHING ABOUT NO HEROIN! I say...Yeah...well Merlin say's he gave Dennis $100 dollar bag of HEROIN you paid for Carl... to which Carl say's THAT'S A LIE... YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT...F_ _ _  HOLE......... Stan had to grab me as I was about to explode... put his arm around me and steer me over to Stephen...who said... stay cool Rocky... and sit next to me... I said, alright your the quarterback!!! Long story short... after David Frost grandstanded for an hour and a half...about what a GLORIOUS TOUR this was... and how we just couldn't send Dennis home... because the contract stipulated all five Beach Boys would perform...I then said...You know David... you asked if you could come in and talk to us for a few minutes...and all you've done for the last 90 minutes is tell us what we CAN and CAN'T do...I then picked up the phone and said...why don't I call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about your employee procuring HEROINE,,,for Dennis... and Dennis giving some of the Heroine to Brian!!! You can't just SWEEP this HEROINE under the carpet...David! When Carl once again blurts out talk to someone else Rocky...F_ _ _ YOU!!! ... And YES...I did knock Carl out at that point...And YES... there was some discussion of sending me home...But Stephen would hear nothing of it...telling Al Jardine, then Beach Boy president,that if someone would have stood up to these guys before... Brian might not have PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE FROM DRUGS!!! he concluded with...it's funny Al... yesterday when you rode back to the Hotel, from the sound check, with Rocky and I... YOU WERE APPALLED   at Dennis buying HEROIN and giving some to Brian... in fact you said YOU WERE APPALLED  two different times...didn't you Al!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mikeddonn on December 17, 2015, 02:23:23 PM
Rocky, whilst I don't condone the methods (violence) I find your posts very interesting.  There have been a lot of comments on here about the approach taken by yourself and others to keep drugs out of the Beach Boys lives but very few of us know the main protagonists in the Beach Boys story personally.  I think it is good to hear your side of the story and, anyone who knows personally the harm drugs can cause will also know that sometimes families may reluctantly agree to 'underhand' means to help their loved ones in times of desperation.

Dennis was never going to enter in a conventional detox programme, and look where Brian ended up with Landy and his unconventional methods.  Carl seemed to get 'sober' after the incident in Australia so that was at least one positive from the whole messy and horrible situation.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 17, 2015, 02:27:11 PM
I have been asked several questions since I joined Smiley Smile...I will address some of them. First off I am curious as to who chose the websites name...Smiley Smile! For it gives the impression they are... IN THE KNOW...I could be in the wrong...

You are indeed. Smiley Smile was the name of The Beach Boys 1967 album, released instead of Smile: Brian's nephew Barry Turnbull came up with the title. As far as I know, the board was named by Charles le Page. But... I could be IN THE WRONG...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mtaber on December 17, 2015, 03:34:04 PM
This thread makes me feel dirty...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Manning on December 17, 2015, 03:52:43 PM
Smiley Smile! I could be in the wrong... I wasn't in the loop back then,,, But I think Marilyn's sister Diane Rovell may have come up with the term. When Brian didn't finish recording Smile...and retreated to bed for the next ten years...Stephen, Stan and I always encouraged Brian to revisit his earlier MASTERPIECE in the wings...Which he did some 35 years later with Musicians he hand picked... I can assure you they were all VIRTUOSO Musicians...Brian had an ear for Music that was unparalleled... EVEN Sir Paul McCartney will attest to that...as he made it known that he would love to write with Brian some day...

It's fascinating little pearls of knowledge like this that keep me coming back to this board. You learn something new every day.

I have been asked several questions since I joined Smiley Smile...I will address some of them. First off I am curious as to who chose the websites name...Smiley Smile! For it gives the impression they are... IN THE KNOW...I could be in the wrong...

You are indeed. Smiley Smile was the name of The Beach Boys 1967 album, released instead of Smile: Brian's nephew Barry Turnbull came up with the title. As far as I know, the board was named by Charles le Page. But... I could be IN THE WRONG...


You know, I bet Andrew wouldn't mind if you went ahead and used this little nugget or two in the book, FoC, as long as it source is properly acknowledged. Every little helps… though I COULD BE … in the WRONG…

This thread makes me feel dirty...

Kinda feeling that way too… keep thinking of that old Charles Atlas advert with the jock beefcake kicking sand in the little guy's face… …


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on December 17, 2015, 03:53:39 PM
I have been asked several questions since I joined Smiley Smile...I will address some of them. First off I am curious as to who chose the websites name...Smiley Smile! For it gives the impression they are... IN THE KNOW...I could be in the wrong...
You are indeed. Smiley Smile was the name of The Beach Boys 1967 album, released instead of Smile: Brian's nephew Barry Turnbull came up with the title. As far as I know, the board was named by Charles le Page. But... I could be IN THE WRONG...

And this board was an off-shoot of the Smile Shop. Smile Shop-> Smiley Smile, kind of like who the album morphed into SS.

Didn't not know that about the album title, though...learn something new every day!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on December 17, 2015, 04:08:26 PM
I find it interesting that Mr.Pamplin, in addition to having a problem with his temper, also has a spelling problem. In order to make his case he has to make most of the Beach Boys look bad (Carl not only said f*** you to the virile Rocky but he also has the bad  habit of spitting cold cuts when excited, Al is appalled one minute but not the next etc.).It seems to me you could've kept Brian away from heroin by never leaving him alone and also having someone keeping a close eye on Dennis. Maybe it's just 20/20 hindsight.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Doo Dah on December 17, 2015, 04:10:57 PM
This thread makes me feel dirty...

Yeah, and those segments in the Gaines book kind of hit me the same way. At the end of the day, apart from the first person description we've heard this sorry episode before in Gaines.

With Mike's book coming out next year, and Brian's coming out the following year, wonder if a publisher will take a chance and sandwich Rocky's thesis between the two. I say thesis because he's a man of letters. Capital letters.  :smokin

Everything I've ever read about the Aussie tour makes it seem like it must have been extremely uncomfortable and unsettling to be there. Imagine being in that crew. What a downer.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: joe_blow on December 17, 2015, 04:11:57 PM
For what term did Al serve as president?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on December 17, 2015, 04:38:27 PM
For what term did Al serve as president?

A short term


*rimshot*


Thanks, I'm here all week, try the veal


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 17, 2015, 04:46:55 PM
When do tickets go on sale for your stand up act? :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 17, 2015, 05:14:03 PM
Can't we just listen without all of the drama and snark?  Being polite and listening isn't condoning anything.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 17, 2015, 05:37:32 PM
Rocky, did you get the sense that the Wilsons felt guilty and sorry about doing drugs? Do you think that they felt that they sort of deserved the level of life-management you provided because they had failed to control themselves?
Also, in the "heroin incident showdown" described above, what were the other active beach boys (Mike Love at least) doing at that time? Were they also present?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jim V. on December 17, 2015, 07:06:26 PM
Can't we just listen without all of the drama and snark?  Being polite and listening isn't condoning anything.

Nah. Rocky is a massive piece of sh*t. Unlike nearly every other person in The Beach Boys story (besides Landy) he doesn't deserve any of our respect. Plus he apparently can't spell or form sentences despite the fact that he's been on the planet for sixty-plus years.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Manning on December 17, 2015, 10:38:26 PM
Can't we just listen without all of the drama and snark?  Being polite and listening isn't condoning anything.

Nah. Rocky is a massive piece of sh*t. Unlike nearly every other person in The Beach Boys story (besides Landy) he doesn't deserve any of our respect. Plus he apparently can't spell or form sentences despite the fact that he's been on the planet for sixty-plus years.

It's not the best advert for the book, is it!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on December 17, 2015, 10:48:54 PM
Rocket J Pomplamoose...  Do you not accept ANY responsibilty for opening up the drug pipeline TO Brian by spending all of that time when you SHOULD have been standing guard but instead allowed yourself to 'hibernate' in bed...with his wife?

You are just a joke.  You have no moral compass and you have NO right to be passing judgement on Dennis, Carl, Brian or anyone.  As a human being you are a failure.  Don't waste your time with trying to cobble together promotion for some kind of 'book'.  Unless it's called 'I'm A Complete and Utter Asshole' it won't have ANY credibility.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: puni puni on December 17, 2015, 10:50:41 PM
First off I am curious as to who chose the websites name...Smiley Smile! For it gives the impression they are... IN THE KNOW...I could be in the wrong... I wasn't in the loop back then,,, But I think Marilyn's sister Diane Rovell may have come up with the term.

If you had no idea that the Beach Boys released an album called Smiley Smile in 1967, then what else did 'Smiley Smile' refer to?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on December 17, 2015, 11:18:18 PM
I was waiting for this thread to turn ugly. It lasted for 8 whole pages. Impressive.  :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Theydon Bois on December 18, 2015, 12:15:19 AM
Can't we just listen without all of the drama and snark?  Being polite and listening isn't condoning anything.

I just wanted to say that, while I normally disagree with absolutely everything you have to say, I think that this is right on, and I felt much the same when Lorren Daro was here.  It's important and interesting to hear about events from lots of different perspectives, even if you find some of them contemptible.

Guys, you don't need to rush out to hang Mr Pamplin.  He has plenty enough rope to do it himself.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 18, 2015, 01:43:17 AM
The problem with Daro, aside from being vile towards Marilyn, was that every time someone challenged his story, it changed.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 18, 2015, 03:19:02 AM
Civility and patience and allowances on our parts for our guests' memory and internet voice and thumb typing skills might be in order. Speaking as a grandpa, is this the way we would treat our grandpa if I, I mean they, were trying to express themselves on a message board?

Jeez, let people talk, we don't have to confront and/or insult them on every point. It would be nice if they could be allowed to settle in and tell their side of the story before being flogged by us with insult and corrections.

Also hug your grandmas and grandpas if you can.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on December 18, 2015, 03:34:22 AM
Civility and patience and allowances on our parts for our guests' memory and internet voice and thumb typing skills might be in order. Speaking as a grandpa, is this the way we would treat our grandpa if I, I mean they, were trying to express themselves on a message board?

My grandfathers are both dead, but if either of them had ever thought it a good idea to go on message boards and boast about the times they and their friends physically assaulted drug addicts who were in a weak physical and mental state (but only when they outnumbered the addicts so it wouldn't have been a fair fight even if they were clean), and to do that specifically on message boards for people who were fans of the people who had been beaten up, I'd at the very least tell them it was a bad idea.

Pamplin is not *more* deserving of courtesy than anyone else. He certainly deserves not to have his typing or spelling skills mocked. But his justifications for assaulting Dennis (and *especially* his justifications for assaulting Carl) don't deserve any respect at all. He is describing, and glorying in, thuggish, abusive, behaviour.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: JasonK on December 18, 2015, 03:35:34 AM
I agree.  Let the guy tell his story without taking shots at him.  Would you rather not hear any of this?  I doubt it, or you wouldn't be coming back to the thread.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AvanTodd on December 18, 2015, 04:13:14 AM
Can't we just listen without all of the drama and snark?  Being polite and listening isn't condoning anything.

I agree.  Let the guy tell his story without taking shots at him.  Would you rather not hear any of this?  I doubt it, or you wouldn't be coming back to the thread.

Voices of reason.

I hope Rocky keeps posting here.  This is the most interesting thing to happen on this board in ages.  Looking forward to hearing more, Rocky.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AdultContemporaryChild on December 18, 2015, 04:14:04 AM
Does Pamplin now wear Pampers?  What does he think of No Pier Pressure, the album of the century?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll on December 18, 2015, 04:21:40 AM
So Carl liked cold cuts?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 18, 2015, 04:22:30 AM
Pamplin is not *more* deserving of courtesy than anyone else. He certainly deserves not to have his typing or spelling skills mocked. But his justifications for assaulting Dennis (and *especially* his justifications for assaulting Carl) don't deserve any respect at all. He is describing, and glorying in, thuggish, abusive, behaviour.

And he is no less deserving of courtesy. Their story is their story and they should be allowed to settle in and tell it. You know, if it is Rocky in this case. We will still have our own minds about respect after we hear their side.

Can't we develop a polite conversation over a side we haven't heard? What was their thinking at the time, what was the back story for them, do they have regrets, are they sure their memory is accurate, etc..  Cooperative instead of confrontational, both ways. We were getting there with Daro but we had gone too far and we couldn't get it back apparently and probably missed out on a lot of less controversial, but interesting, perspective from him.

PS. I'm not taking issue with anything you've said in this regard, old friend.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: LostArt on December 18, 2015, 04:38:44 AM
Pamplin is not *more* deserving of courtesy than anyone else. He certainly deserves not to have his typing or spelling skills mocked. But his justifications for assaulting Dennis (and *especially* his justifications for assaulting Carl) don't deserve any respect at all. He is describing, and glorying in, thuggish, abusive, behaviour.

And he is no less deserving of courtesy. Their story is their story and they should be allowed to settle in and tell it. You know, if it is Rocky in this case. We will still have our own minds about respect after we hear their side.

Can't we develop a polite conversation over a side we haven't heard? What was their thinking at the time, what was the back story for them, do they have regrets, are they sure their memory is accurate, etc..  Cooperative instead of confrontational, both ways. We were getting there with Daro but we had gone too far and we couldn't get it back apparently and probably missed out on a lot of less controversial, but interesting, perspective from him.

Hear, hear!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: bb4ever on December 18, 2015, 05:30:07 AM
I DON'T KNOW NOTHING ABOUT NO HEROINE!!
I DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHIG TO DO WITH NO HEROINE

In every interview I've seen of Carl Wilson he seemed not only intelligent, but extremely articulate and well spoken.  He could still sing the heck out of any song--even when under the influence during those dark days.  Finding it a bit hard to believe he lost all command of his speaking skills and made comments like this?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 18, 2015, 05:48:37 AM
I find it interesting that Mr.Pamplin, in addition to having a problem with his temper, also has a spelling problem. In order to make his case he has to make most of the Beach Boys look bad (Carl not only said f*** you to the virile Rocky but he also has the bad  habit of spitting cold cuts when excited, Al is appalled one minute but not the next etc.).It seems to me you could've kept Brian away from heroin by never leaving him alone and also having someone keeping a close eye on Dennis. Maybe it's just 20/20 hindsight.
Gerry - The spelling is not subject to a spelling test.  We are here for ideas and information and not for a grammar exam.  We don't all have the same academic background, so shouldn't be subject to grammar and spelling standards.  We just love the music.  

That said, what I am trying to extract from what this person is posting is that there was serious impairment going on, and not realizing that is was the "horse"(heroin or other drugs) talking not more than when someone is drunk the "booze" is talking for that person.  It is like trying to reason with a two-year-old having a temper tantrum.  You cannot try to reason with that temper tantrum.  You wait until it has passed and things have calmed down. And keep the person safe instead of lashing out.  You have to be the adult in the room.  

That is what is missing here.  The complete lack of assessment of their "state of mind" when these "events" took place.  It was not smart to not "wait it out" for the drug haze to clear, until the "user" had some ability to be clear, rational and adult-behaved.  This is false sense of personal affront.  And an over-reaction.  

That behavior seems inconsistent with Carl's personality.  I did not know him personally but saw him enough, over 30 years to observe that it did not appear to be his way of communicating. People tend to act consistently except if they are "impaired."  Then, they act/behave completely out of character.

If he was high, then it should have been assumed that it was the "drugs talking" and not the real Carl.  Even back then, people in AA would talk about the "booze talking" and had a reasonable analogy to the degree of his impairment, that should have been inferred.  The AA people were on the right track.  And were ahead of the medical world, not with treatment but with true understanding that behavior was influenced by substances, and it wasn't the "person talking" but the "substance that was mouthing-off."

Carl should have been left alone to have those salty cold cuts  and be thirsty enough to drink something (especially if he wasn't paying attention to hydration, where being dehydrated could cause kidney and cardiac problems.) Addicts, while actively using, are not paying attention to their health.  He was getting some protein at least, to keep his heart going. Hindsight is 20/20.  And were are in 2015.  We need to use an "era" or "70's decade" appropriate lens.  

That false braggadocio in mouthing-off was more likely than not the drugs talking, and not a personal insult, responded to, inappropriately.   ;)
 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on December 18, 2015, 06:45:44 AM
OK...I get where you guys are coming from because I wanted the Daro thread to move along in hopes of seeing some revealing info come to light.  It's just...as A.H. said...the guy is here rubbing our noses in his ongoing bragging about how he and Stan and Steve dealt with those Wilsons.  Ya he/they loved Brian.  Loved him so much that one of them [Rocket] had an affair with Brian's wife.  Now THAT'S real love.

This is the kind of guy...you know...with the severely scraped knuckles...who only understands one language.  I hope he comes my way on a book signing tour.  I'll be there to SAY HELLO.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 18, 2015, 08:00:03 AM
This "heroine"... who is she ?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on December 18, 2015, 08:07:15 AM
Challenge the guy by all means, but let's not run him off. Anything at this point has to be more interesting then the millionth Mike Love bitchfest.

Does Pamplin now wear Pampers?  What does he think of No Pier Pressure, the album of the century?

Wow, it must have been a slow century.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: OGoldin on December 18, 2015, 09:13:58 AM
I understand why people are being rude to Rocky.

Beyond the glorious music, part of what makes the Beach Boys story so interesting is that is reflects a kind of divide in American culture, at least in the 60s and 70s.  On the one hand there is the football/cheerleaders, clean living, mindless fun side of things that Mike Love came to symbolize.  On the other there is the free/creative/introspective/spiritual side, which, for a time, was associated with drugs, consciousness expanding at first, later, less so.  The Wilson brothers are here, and most of this board, though recognizing that no one can ground the stack of vocals like Mike, are most interested the Beach Boys on account of this side of things.
Rocky is very much on the first side of things.    And he beat up people we love, and betrayed their trust.
On the other hand, much of the Beach Boys family did trust him, maybe love him, and he was right there in the middle of things, during a very interesting period.  And beyond Desper, who else on this board has worked with Brian, musically?
So welcome, Rocky, and let’s hear what you have to say.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: HeyJude on December 18, 2015, 09:26:51 AM
So Carl liked cold cuts?

I honestly don't know if the fact that we got such a descriptive sense of Carl's consumption of cold cuts is a good or bad thing.

It was such an awful time for the band, so I know it's hard to find any humor in it. But I'd hope somewhere, somehow, sometime, Carl and/or the guys could find some kind of humor in the Spinal Tap-esque scene of Carl, the most level-headed guy in the band, yelling at someone while specs of roast beef sandwich are flying everywhere out of his mouth. 

Someone awhile back dug up that 1989 interview with Carl from Europe and had it translated to English, and the interviewer actually asked Carl about that 1978 Australian tour, and Carl seemed to *still* be kind of defensive about it. I sense it was a painful time/memory for Carl as well, regardless of the accuracy of all the various anecdotes and stories.

It is kind of ironic that we get such a potentially vivid description of the *one relatively short era* where Carl went off the rails. He appears to have gotten his s**t together by 1979 and never once after 1978 did he ever do that "Elmer Fudd on valium" slurring on stage or anything like that. Proof, if nothing else, that someone can go off the rails but actually come back from it and return to form as one of the main reasons to even stay invested in the band.

A mere three years later, it was Carl *leaving* the band in 1981 that nearly spelled the end of the touring band, who could barely hold things together without him (e.g. the Queen Mary gig, etc.).


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mikeddonn on December 18, 2015, 10:02:07 AM
As I mentioned further up the board, in NO WAY condoning violence, maybe the incident with Rocky was enough to shock Carl back into reality and get it together.  Carl seemed like the type to listen to a wake up call.  On the other hand I sense that the harder someone hit Dennis the more he would come back for more (physically and emotionally).


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 18, 2015, 10:10:54 AM
Or maybe Carl saw footage of what a mess he was onstage ?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 18, 2015, 10:28:47 AM
It seems to me pretty evident that Carl Wilson did not have the same level of psychological disturbance as Brian and Dennis Wilson. He was probably less needful of self-medication. Drugs for him probably fulfilled a different, more dispensable function. He also clearly did not develop a strong addiction.
If I were living in hotels and busses and planes with these folks, I'd be taking a lot of drugs too. Then when they were out of the picture, I'd probably stop.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Wirestone on December 18, 2015, 10:40:47 AM
It seems to me pretty evident that Carl Wilson did not have the same level of psychological disturbance as Brian and Dennis Wilson. He was probably less needful of self-medication. Drugs for him probably fulfilled a different, more dispensable function. He also clearly did not develop a strong addiction.

I think those who knew Carl in his later years might dispute that.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 18, 2015, 10:41:28 AM
It seems to me pretty evident that Carl Wilson did not have the same level of psychological disturbance as Brian and Dennis Wilson. He was probably less needful of self-medication. Drugs for him probably fulfilled a different, more dispensable function. He also clearly did not develop a strong addiction.

I think those who knew Carl in his later years might dispute that.
Well that's sad to learn.
Which part would they dispute? I'd heard, and people in posts above seem to indicate that he didn't continue heavy usage after that period in the 70's. Is that untrue?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 18, 2015, 10:58:05 AM
Carl's heroin habit was as intense as it was brief.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 18, 2015, 11:14:43 AM
Carl's heroin habit was as intense as it was brief.
But it did not persist into his later years, correct? Do you know to what Wirestone was referring?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on December 18, 2015, 11:16:11 AM
It seems to me pretty evident that Carl Wilson did not have the same level of psychological disturbance as Brian and Dennis Wilson. He was probably less needful of self-medication. Drugs for him probably fulfilled a different, more dispensable function. He also clearly did not develop a strong addiction.

I think those who knew Carl in his later years might dispute that.
Well that's sad to learn.
Which part would they dispute? I'd heard, and people in posts above seem to indicate that he didn't continue heavy usage after that period in the 70's. Is that untrue?

To quote one of Carl's own 90s lyrics, "I quit smoking but I drink too much".
I never knew Carl, and so would not like to state it as a *fact*, but I have heard several times that Carl was a very heavy drinker, and while I've not heard the words used of him, the descriptions make him sound like a functioning alcoholic. The "functioning" being an important part there, though -- I've not heard any stories of the alcohol causing him to behave badly, to be unprofessional, or to do anything at all wrong.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 18, 2015, 11:17:18 AM
It seems to me pretty evident that Carl Wilson did not have the same level of psychological disturbance as Brian and Dennis Wilson. He was probably less needful of self-medication. Drugs for him probably fulfilled a different, more dispensable function. He also clearly did not develop a strong addiction.

I think those who knew Carl in his later years might dispute that.
Well that's sad to learn.
Which part would they dispute? I'd heard, and people in posts above seem to indicate that he didn't continue heavy usage after that period in the 70's. Is that untrue?

To quote one of Carl's own 90s lyrics, "I quit smoking but I drink too much".
I never knew Carl, and so would not like to state it as a *fact*, but I have heard several times that Carl was a very heavy drinker, and while I've not heard the words used of him, the descriptions make him sound like a functioning alcoholic. The "functioning" being an important part there, though -- I've not heard any stories of the alcohol causing him to behave badly, to be unprofessional, or to do anything at all wrong.
ah, shame. I'm sorry to hear it.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mikeddonn on December 18, 2015, 11:32:37 AM
It seems to me pretty evident that Carl Wilson did not have the same level of psychological disturbance as Brian and Dennis Wilson. He was probably less needful of self-medication. Drugs for him probably fulfilled a different, more dispensable function. He also clearly did not develop a strong addiction.
If I were living in hotels and busses and planes with these folks, I'd be taking a lot of drugs too. Then when they were out of the picture, I'd probably stop.


I'm sure a lot of musicians had that plan too.  Then it doesn't quite work out like that and they get hooked.  Carl also suffered a lot of back pain and drugs can sometimes help people to forget the pain.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on December 18, 2015, 11:39:37 AM
It seems to me pretty evident that Carl Wilson did not have the same level of psychological disturbance as Brian and Dennis Wilson. He was probably less needful of self-medication. Drugs for him probably fulfilled a different, more dispensable function. He also clearly did not develop a strong addiction.

I think those who knew Carl in his later years might dispute that.
Well that's sad to learn.
Which part would they dispute? I'd heard, and people in posts above seem to indicate that he didn't continue heavy usage after that period in the 70's. Is that untrue?

To quote one of Carl's own 90s lyrics, "I quit smoking but I drink too much".
I never knew Carl, and so would not like to state it as a *fact*, but I have heard several times that Carl was a very heavy drinker, and while I've not heard the words used of him, the descriptions make him sound like a functioning alcoholic. The "functioning" being an important part there, though -- I've not heard any stories of the alcohol causing him to behave badly, to be unprofessional, or to do anything at all wrong.
ah, shame. I'm sorry to hear it.

Indeed. Though it's very important to note that whatever Carl's addictions, and however serious they were, they didn't (as far as anyone has ever publicly said) mess up his ability to be a good husband, father, and band member, other than for that brief period in 1978. He certainly didn't have the same level of problem his brothers had.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: J.G. Dev on December 18, 2015, 01:57:09 PM
There's nothing in this thread that I haven't read in the Gaines book. No wonder why nothings been published.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: MikestheGreatest!! on December 18, 2015, 03:06:08 PM
Wouldn't a Rocky book about the BB's be about as interesting as a Miss Jane book about Jethro Bodine?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 18, 2015, 03:35:05 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on December 18, 2015, 03:56:39 PM
Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

I don't know about the other people who have been less than welcoming to Rocky, but in my case at least I would behave exactly the same to anyone who was bragging about beating up Mike -- or, indeed, anyone who was bragging about beating up *anyone*.

As for who he has or hasn't slept with, that's no concern of mine, partly because it's private between the people concerned, and mostly because he hasn't come on here bragging about it. And the people talking about that are being crass.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on December 18, 2015, 04:13:00 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.

One thing seems pretty certain to me. If Denny had lived and sobered up, he'd probably be *publicly* open about being regretful for damage he caused as a result of drugs/drinking . You know, the way Brian has gone out of his way to selflessly publicly mention deep regret for his parenting and other such issues during his years when he was lost. He didn't have to do it, but he did. And I don't think a publicist was telling him to do it either. Brian seemed to do it because the feeling just came to him, and he felt like it would be a way of healing. The Wilson brothers seem/seemed to be like that. They are/were not perfect, but they seem like they owned up to stuff and had the ability to self reflect (and not JUST deflect) when they had clear heads.

Comparatively (and we are only bringing up comparisons because YOU went out of your way to do such), Mike's had every opportunity over decades to publicly express even a morsel of regret in an interview about hurting people with his own past actions, and nary a morsel has ever publicly surfaced that I know of.  That, above most everything, is THE main reason why he is so often vilified. It is NOT a negligible factor in the BB saga, despite anybody who wants to claim such. The vilification, while often grossly unfair, doesn't just simply happen for no reason. This argument you are trying to make holds little water, Sheriff.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 18, 2015, 04:32:33 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

This post surprised me. I'm sorry you feel that some of us are hypocritical. For me, I feel pretty sure that if someone beat up Mike Love then talked about it in a way that indicated no regret, I'd object. However, I think there's an added component that Brian and Dennis Wilson were both desperately in need of help and I think (I guess we disagree) that the actions taken were detrimental rather than beneficial.
One thing I don't understand in your post and several others, is the blame on Dennis Wilson particularly. It seems to me, from Rocky Pamplin's posts, that Brian Wilson was also supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Dennis Wilson with drugs. They both participated in the procurement and the consumption. Why is one being fingered as the pusher and the other the pusher's victim?



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on December 18, 2015, 04:57:26 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

This post surprised me. I'm sorry you feel that some of us are hypocritical. For me, I feel pretty sure that if someone beat up Mike Love then talked about it in a way that indicated no regret, I'd object. However, I think there's an added component that Brian and Dennis Wilson were both desperately in need of help and I think (I guess we disagree) that the actions taken were detrimental rather than beneficial.
One thing I don't understand in your post and several others, is the blame on Dennis Wilson particularly. It seems to me, from Rocky Pamplin's posts, that Brian Wilson was also supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Dennis Wilson with drugs. They both participated in the procurement and the consumption. Why is one being fingered as the pusher and the other the pusher's victim?


One could make the strong argument that both Wilson brothers were sadly suffering from addictions which made it that they could not help themselves. They were that far down the rabbit hole of addiction. If Mike did some action(s) where he himself was acting in a way that he could not help himself, and was causing damage to those around him, I think there'd absolutely be a level of empathy if he got beat up, particularly if that caused future repercussions to him. But of course, the circumstances are completely different. Denny and Brian get a lot of extra sympathy because of how big they showed their hearts were on many occasions, despite many instances of undeniablly not-exemplary behavior, and the brothers also have the added bonus of exhibiting heaps of selflessness and self-awareness. Others who don't particularly show such traits are going to be less popular, and it's not rocket science why that happens.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 18, 2015, 05:02:53 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

This post surprised me. I'm sorry you feel that some of us are hypocritical. For me, I feel pretty sure that if someone beat up Mike Love then talked about it in a way that indicated no regret, I'd object. However, I think there's an added component that Brian and Dennis Wilson were both desperately in need of help and I think (I guess we disagree) that the actions taken were detrimental rather than beneficial.
One thing I don't understand in your post and several others, is the blame on Dennis Wilson particularly. It seems to me, from Rocky Pamplin's posts, that Brian Wilson was also supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Dennis Wilson with drugs. They both participated in the procurement and the consumption. Why is one being fingered as the pusher and the other the pusher's victim?


One could make the strong argument that both Wilson brothers were sadly suffering from addictions which made it that they could not help themselves. They were that far down the rabbit hole of addiction. If Mike did some action(s) where he himself was acting in a way that he could not help himself, and was causing damage to those around him, I think there'd be a level of empathy if he got beat up, particularly if that caused future repercussions to him. But of course, the circumstances are completely different. Denny and Brian get a lot of extra sympathy because of how big they showed their hearts were on many occasions, despite many instances of undeniablly not-exemplary behavior, and the added bonus of selflessness and self-awareness. Others who don't particularly show such traits are going to be less popular, and it's not rocket science why that happens.
I agree. There are definitely times that Mike Love seemed to be struggling with great personal difficulties (in the late 60s or early 70s stands out), and if his family, friends, and colleagues had responded in a like manner I can't imagine I would be less critical.


Edit to remove a redundancy and to say I definitely agree with the first part of your post. I have to think about the second.
- OK - regarding the second part, I think I would be equally critical of the battering of a person in need of help whether or not I felt that that person was generally a "good" person. I think the battery would disgust me equally either way. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on December 18, 2015, 05:39:59 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

This post surprised me. I'm sorry you feel that some of us are hypocritical. For me, I feel pretty sure that if someone beat up Mike Love then talked about it in a way that indicated no regret, I'd object. However, I think there's an added component that Brian and Dennis Wilson were both desperately in need of help and I think (I guess we disagree) that the actions taken were detrimental rather than beneficial.
One thing I don't understand in your post and several others, is the blame on Dennis Wilson particularly. It seems to me, from Rocky Pamplin's posts, that Brian Wilson was also supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Dennis Wilson with drugs. They both participated in the procurement and the consumption. Why is one being fingered as the pusher and the other the pusher's victim?


One could make the strong argument that both Wilson brothers were sadly suffering from addictions which made it that they could not help themselves. They were that far down the rabbit hole of addiction. If Mike did some action(s) where he himself was acting in a way that he could not help himself, and was causing damage to those around him, I think there'd be a level of empathy if he got beat up, particularly if that caused future repercussions to him. But of course, the circumstances are completely different. Denny and Brian get a lot of extra sympathy because of how big they showed their hearts were on many occasions, despite many instances of undeniablly not-exemplary behavior, and the added bonus of selflessness and self-awareness. Others who don't particularly show such traits are going to be less popular, and it's not rocket science why that happens.
I agree. There are definitely times that Mike Love seemed to be struggling with great personal difficulties (in the late 60s or early 70s stands out), and if his family, friends, and colleagues had responded in a like manner I can't imagine I would be less critical.


Edit to remove a redundancy and to say I definitely agree with the first part of your post. I have to think about the second.
- OK - regarding the second part, I think I would be equally critical of the battering of a person in need of help whether or not I felt that that person was generally a "good" person. I think the battery would disgust me equally either way.  

Without condoning any violence, I can understand how it must have been near impossible to know of what to do to solve a critical circumstance such as what went down, if there was a lack of knowledge of proper resources that would work. But premeditated battery is f*cked any way one slices it.  Nobody should have gotten severely beaten up, whether it's a member who is loved, or a member who you don't care for.  However, if Shawn punched Mike after he refused to recognize her as his daughter, that's an instance where I think people on the whole would have less empathy for the recipient of violence, if Sheriff wants to be proven right. It's all about the circumstance and specifics - nobody, as far I see it, has magically attained sympathy (or lack thereof) for arbitrary, random reasons.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on December 18, 2015, 05:41:45 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.

One thing seems pretty certain to me. If Denny had lived and sobered up, he'd probably be *publicly* open about being regretful for damage he caused as a result of drugs/drinking . You know, the way Brian has gone out of his way to selflessly publicly mention deep regret for his parenting and other such issues during his years when he was lost. He didn't have to do it, but he did. And I don't think a publicist was telling him to do it either. Brian seemed to do it because the feeling just came to him, and he felt like it would be a way of healing. The Wilson brothers seem/seemed to be like that. They are/were not perfect, but they seem like they owned up to stuff and had the ability to self reflect (and not JUST deflect) when they had clear heads.

Comparatively (and we are only bringing up comparisons because YOU went out of your way to do such), Mike's had every opportunity over decades to publicly express even a morsel of regret in an interview about hurting people with his own past actions, and nary a morsel has ever publicly surfaced that I know of.  That, above most everything, is THE main reason why he is so often vilified. It is NOT a negligible factor in the BB saga, despite anybody who wants to claim such. The vilification, while often grossly unfair, doesn't just simply happen for no reason. This argument you are trying to make holds little water, Sheriff.

Well said.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 18, 2015, 05:47:17 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.
Merry Christmas Mike and Jackie Love!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 18, 2015, 05:52:35 PM

One could make the strong argument that both Wilson brothers were sadly suffering from addictions which made it that they could not help themselves. They were that far down the rabbit hole of addiction. If Mike did some action(s) where he himself was acting in a way that he could not help himself, and was causing damage to those around him, I think there'd be a level of empathy if he got beat up, particularly if that caused future repercussions to him. But of course, the circumstances are completely different. Denny and Brian get a lot of extra sympathy because of how big they showed their hearts were on many occasions, despite many instances of undeniablly not-exemplary behavior, and the added bonus of selflessness and self-awareness. Others who don't particularly show such traits are going to be less popular, and it's not rocket science why that happens.
I agree. There are definitely times that Mike Love seemed to be struggling with great personal difficulties (in the late 60s or early 70s stands out), and if his family, friends, and colleagues had responded in a like manner I can't imagine I would be less critical.


Edit to remove a redundancy and to say I definitely agree with the first part of your post. I have to think about the second.
- OK - regarding the second part, I think I would be equally critical of the battering of a person in need of help whether or not I felt that that person was generally a "good" person. I think the battery would disgust me equally either way.  

Without condoning any violence, I can understand how it must have been near impossible to know of what to do to solve a critical circumstance such as what went down, if there was a lack of knowledge of proper resources that would work. But premeditated battery is f*cked any way one slices it.  Nobody should have gotten severely beaten up, whether it's a member who is loved, or a member who you don't care for.  However, if Shawn punched Mike after he refused to recognize her as his daughter, that's an instance where I think people on the whole would have less empathy for the recipient of violence, if Sheriff wants to be proven right. It's all about the circumstance and specifics - nobody, as far I see it, has magically attained sympathy (or lack thereof) for arbitrary, random reasons.
I can see where you're going. And I agree about the Shawn scenario if Mike was healthy and sound at the time (which I think he was). If Mike was mentally ill, drug addicted and vulnerable at the time he was punched, my hackles would be raised at the punching even if he was being a jerk while being mentally ill, drug addicted and vulnerable.
I mean, Jim Morrison seems like one of the grossest people ever, but if a couple of people set out to smash his head in, not because he had assaulted them but because they were mad he did drugs with someone else, I think I'd have a similar reaction to the one I have regarding the Dennis Wilson story.
I think we're essentially agreeing, though, just I think you're imagining Mike Love being as he is, while I'm imagining him being a vulnerable mess (as a hypothetical).


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AvanTodd on December 18, 2015, 06:04:15 PM
I mean, Jim Morrison seems like one of the grossest people ever, but if a couple of people set out to smash his head in, not because he had assaulted them but because they were mad he did drugs with someone else, I think I'd have a similar reaction to the one I have regarding the Dennis Wilson story.

Ha, well you know: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10392.msg189526.html#msg189526


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 18, 2015, 06:20:25 PM
I mean, Jim Morrison seems like one of the grossest people ever, but if a couple of people set out to smash his head in, not because he had assaulted them but because they were mad he did drugs with someone else, I think I'd have a similar reaction to the one I have regarding the Dennis Wilson story.

Ha, well you know: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10392.msg189526.html#msg189526
Well, there you go... the whole "let's take it outside" thing is really meat-headed and degenerate. And I'd read that Dennis Wilson beat up Carl not infrequently, and not only when they were kids, and that really bothers me, too.
One of the things that makes me so curious about the BB story is that such beautiful and gentle music (yes, full of love) was made by people who were often so sordid. And I kind of think they all were, in different ways (except Al and please if you have dirt on Al, just don't tell me about it. I don't want to know). Some I end up feeling more empathy for than others; some I think were, as CenturyDeprived indicates, more generous of spirit and made more effort to be good to others. I think Century Deprived is right that Dennis and Brian Wilson had a lot of heart. I think Carl Wilson tried really hard to keep peace.
But yeah, I think Dennis could be really brutal at times, and if his ghost came on this board and started yakking about how he kicked Morrison's *ss that time and he just had to do it because whatever, I'd be thinking Dennis Wilson is a cretin. (Particularly if Dennis was sober/straight and Morrison was not, and Dennis was clearly the instigator of the violence).

Also:  Dennis' wife dated Jim Morrison? Yuck.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on December 18, 2015, 06:50:24 PM
Regarding SJS's post: Nobody ever said fandom was logical.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on December 18, 2015, 08:21:46 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.

Well put.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: tpesky on December 18, 2015, 11:39:39 PM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.

This might be the most bizarre post I've ever read on here and that's saying something.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on December 18, 2015, 11:47:17 PM
If he shows his face again, this thread is going to get very weird.  ;D


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on December 19, 2015, 12:12:09 AM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.

This might be the most bizarre post I've ever read on here and that's saying something.
That's probably the most animosity I've ever seen directed towards Brian. I think Mike Love himself might shake his head over that one.

I think a majority  of us don't gloss over the mistakes Brian and Dennis made. Brian himself sure doesn't. The percentage of posters who feel Brian could do no wrong is exceedingly small. And being able to look past that and dig the amazing work he put out is a bad thing?

I'm sorry. I just don't get it.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Manning on December 19, 2015, 12:19:24 AM
Are these few incidents the sum total of Rocky's life highlights? Is this an autobiography or just a heavy volume about a light number of months when he hung out with some famous people? Has he done nothing else for the best part of half a century?

Seems to me that all the other characters in his story moved on, continued to live their lives, and the only ripples that Rocky caused in those lives were toxic ones.

I had a quick look back through this thread and note that his initial post seems to have been written by another, possibly cut and pasted from some flannel sheet about the book and it contains none of the CAPS and … DOTS that … characterise later posts, and far fewer grammatical missteps.

Someone said we shouldn't criticise his spelling or grammatical errors but this is an author we're dealing with, one who is presumably here to publicise his book written, when? At least nine years ago according to one source. I'd expect an author to be able to wield the language with some ability.

One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation. And now one of those errors has written a book about his heroics. So (assuming some seedy publisher picks it up) it's all going to be raked up again. Nearly half a century after the fact. When she has her own life to live.

Being a part of the Beach Boys world can't be easy. Ever.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Manning on December 19, 2015, 12:48:19 AM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.

This might be the most bizarre post I've ever read on here and that's saying something.
That's probably the most animosity I've ever seen directed towards Brian. I think Mike Love himself might shake his head over that one.

I think a majority  of us don't gloss over the mistakes Brian and Dennis made. Brian himself sure doesn't. The percentage of posters who feel Brian could do no wrong is exceedingly small. And being able to look past that and dig the amazing work he put out is a bad thing?

I'm sorry. I just don't get it.



I get it Billy. This was such a bad time, and no one really comes out of it well. As fans we're transparently more willing to accept some people's mistakes than others, mental issues aside. There's no real logic to it.

My option of Dennis changed a lot after reading Scott's book, and not for the better, I have to say, and I'm not sure that the vibe I got from it was what Scott was trying to get across.

Not sure this Rocky tome is one I want to read though. It's such a small, twisted view on such a brief period that I think it'd be better being woven into a book with a far wider remit. Oh yeah, the Gaines book…


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on December 19, 2015, 01:58:36 AM
Oh, I don't know, SJS, Dario was driven off and his main thesis was what a sh*t Mike was. And Marilyn. And Murry.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 19, 2015, 04:56:25 AM
Maybe what SJS means is we shouldn't be condemn-y or insulting and confronting of ANY of our guests over our opinion of what we think we know about any of their past mistakes. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 19, 2015, 05:05:16 AM
Oh, I don't know, SJS, Dario was driven off and his main thesis was what a sh*t Mike was. And Marilyn. And Murry.

In this thread was encouragement for Rocky to dish dirt on Mike.  Hopefully we will allow Rocky to tell his whole story.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: JK on December 19, 2015, 05:33:50 AM
Hopefully we will allow Rocky to tell his whole story.

Hear, hear. It's at moments like these that the phrase "I wasn't there" comes readily to mind...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: LeeDempsey on December 19, 2015, 06:11:21 AM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Empire Of Love on December 19, 2015, 06:41:11 AM
Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.

Well, at least now we know which faction turns every thread into a Brian v Mike thread, and it isn't the faction that contains Smile Brian and OSD.  Just when those two began to behave SJS comes out of the shadows and, as per usual, is shortly thereafter supported by Mike's Beard and Cam Mott.

As has been stated as nauseum on this board, Mike doesn't get a pass because he never admits guilt and never shoulders any of the blame.  Brian, on the other hand, never makes his drug use or mental problems an excuse and instead admits he was wrong.  In this regard Mike is the worst kind of arrogant and by his own actions makes Brian look like the good guy in comparison.  Ironic, isn't it?

EoL


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on December 19, 2015, 06:49:47 AM
Not really. SJS made some valid points. Do we really want to just give Rocky crap 'cos he slugged a Wilson or two  or can we hold back on the moralizing and judgement long enough to listen to what the guy has to say?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: J.G. Dev on December 19, 2015, 06:57:22 AM
The thing is we haven't heard anything from Rocky that wasn't detailed in the Gaines book already. Oh, with the exception of the fact that the drunken sots at the "yacht party" all cheered Rocky and Steve when they announced they were going to put a beat down on Dennis. Or the fact that the gluttonous Carl Wilson was spitting out cold cuts as Rocky knocked him out. Kiss his ass for more details like this? No thanks.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on December 19, 2015, 07:07:12 AM
Way to minimalize and understate the whole 'thing' there 'Beard'.  Moralize?  Is calling an a-hole an a-hole moralizing?  Look...I'm just about ready to drop the audio link to NPP into this thread.  Why don't you just get to slammin' your noggin with the car door.

Might knock some reality into it :lol.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Mike's Beard on December 19, 2015, 07:11:11 AM
Maybe if I slammed my noggin enough times NPP might begin to sound good.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on December 19, 2015, 07:36:52 AM
Maybe if I slammed my noggin enough times NPP might begin to sound good.

 :lol Give it a whirl. :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 19, 2015, 07:37:00 AM
The thing is we haven't heard anything from Rocky that wasn't detailed in the Gaines book already. Oh, with the exception of the fact that the drunken sots at the "yacht party" all cheered Rocky and Steve when they announced they were going to put a beat down on Dennis. Or the fact that the gluttonous Carl Wilson was spitting out cold cuts as Rocky knocked him out. Kiss his ass for more details like this? No thanks.

If it is Rocky, we have the chance hear from his mouth (or fingers) and much more.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 08:09:52 AM
Maybe if I slammed my noggin enough times NPP might begin to sound good.
Mike's Beard - listen to "Sail Away" with Blondie on lead.  Magnificent. 

Carl would have done a magnificent job on lead as well. (Reminds me of Lahaina Aloha.)

Or, The Right Time with Al.  Real BB groove. 

 :thewilsons


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 19, 2015, 08:20:53 AM
The thing is we haven't heard anything from Rocky that wasn't detailed in the Gaines book already. Oh, with the exception of the fact that the drunken sots at the "yacht party" all cheered Rocky and Steve when they announced they were going to put a beat down on Dennis. Or the fact that the gluttonous Carl Wilson was spitting out cold cuts as Rocky knocked him out. Kiss his ass for more details like this? No thanks.

If it is Rocky, we have the chance hear from his mouth (or fingers) and much more.

It is him. I have it on excellent authority.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 19, 2015, 08:29:49 AM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee

The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 19, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
I agree, Marilyn does get enough sympathy and understanding.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 19, 2015, 10:54:40 AM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee


The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: alf wiedersehen on December 19, 2015, 11:02:59 AM
f*** Rocky Pamplin and his book.
I'm not going to reward this sociopath with money for beating on the Wilsons.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 12:19:14 PM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 19, 2015, 12:37:06 PM
I thought that Marilyn's decision to employ Landy (and also Landy's second stint) had the blessing of BRI. Wasn't it approved via a vote that Beach Boys' concert revenue would be used to defray some of Landy's fees? So, while Marilyn might've made the initial contact with Landy, I'm not sure many (any?) were objecting to his hiring.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 19, 2015, 12:41:04 PM
Best I recall it, the first stint was Marilyn's idea, the second time it was down to BRI, apparently on the basis of "well, it worked last time, kinda". Probably the worst single decision they ever made, and lord knows, they've made some shockers.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 12:42:05 PM
I thought that Marilyn's decision to employ Landy (and also Landy's second stint) had the blessing of BRI. Wasn't it approved via a vote that Beach Boys' concert revenue would be used to defray some of Landy's fees? So, while Marilyn might've made the initial contact with Landy, I'm not sure many (any?) were objecting to his hiring.
Sheriff - that may all be true.  I am not privy to that information.  

But, who knew that this would all be subject to the "law of diminishing returns" - it looked as though it was working initially.  

Who knew that a unethical monster was created?  

Who could have predicted that things would go so wrong?

Crystal ball anyone?   I don't have one.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 19, 2015, 12:43:26 PM
Best I recall it, the first stint was Marilyn's idea, the second time it was down to BRI, apparently on the basis of "well, it worked last time, kinda". Probably the worst single decision they even made.

Agree. But, wasn't Marilyn's "idea" validated by BRI by it/them agreeing to fund part of Landy's fees?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Empire Of Love on December 19, 2015, 12:45:32 PM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 19, 2015, 12:52:14 PM
I thought that Marilyn's decision to employ Landy (and also Landy's second stint) had the blessing of BRI. Wasn't it approved via a vote that Beach Boys' concert revenue would be used to defray some of Landy's fees? So, while Marilyn might've made the initial contact with Landy, I'm not sure many (any?) were objecting to his hiring.
Sheriff - that may all be true.  I am not privy to that information.  

But, who knew that this would all be subject to the "law of diminishing returns" - it looked as though it was working initially.  

Who knew that a unethical monster was created?  

Who could have predicted that things would go so wrong?

Crystal ball anyone?   I don't have one.



filledeplage, I'm not criticizing or second guessing Marilyn's decision. Actually, I'm just saying that she wasn't "out there by herself" or acting alone. I thought I read that concert revenue was being targeted toward paying for Landy's treatment. I think that would have to be agreed upon via a vote, which, in effect says that others were agreeing with or at the very least supporting Marilyn's decision.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 01:04:50 PM
I thought that Marilyn's decision to employ Landy (and also Landy's second stint) had the blessing of BRI. Wasn't it approved via a vote that Beach Boys' concert revenue would be used to defray some of Landy's fees? So, while Marilyn might've made the initial contact with Landy, I'm not sure many (any?) were objecting to his hiring.
Sheriff - that may all be true.  I am not privy to that information.  

But, who knew that this would all be subject to the "law of diminishing returns" - it looked as though it was working initially.  

Who knew that a unethical monster was created?  

Who could have predicted that things would go so wrong?

Crystal ball anyone?   I don't have one.
filledeplage, I'm not criticizing or second guessing Marilyn's decision. Actually, I'm just saying that she wasn't "out there by herself" or acting alone. I thought I read that concert revenue was being targeted toward paying for Landy's treatment. I think that would have to be agreed upon via a vote, which, in effect says that others were agreeing with or at the very least supporting Marilyn's decision.
Sheriff - I said "with or without counsel."  So she may well have had advice. And as to the BRI issue, I have no direct  knowledge.  It was reported that they subsidized the treatment.  

And why should they not help a fellow band member? Going back to Carl's CO issues, they pitched in to do concerts to help fulfill Carl's obligations.  It perhaps set a precedent to come to the aid of a band member who required it.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 01:06:43 PM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL
EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band? 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 19, 2015, 01:07:08 PM
It's pretty obvious there's a whole lot of politics surrounding whom we're supposed to think good thoughts about and whom we're supposed to think bad thoughts about. And there are teams here. And you can try to avoid being on a team, but people watch what you say to see which team you're on. It's kind of creepy and stupid.
Regarding this incident, my opinion is:

first Landy hiring: stupid and careless
pamplin hiring: brutal and selfish
second landy hiring: stupid, careless, brutal and selfish.

Whoever made the decisions, or had the power to change them and didn't, can have those adjectives applied to their decision-making.

Am I judgmental? Yes.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 01:12:08 PM
It's pretty obvious there's a whole lot of politics surrounding whom we're supposed to think good thoughts about and whom we're supposed to think bad thoughts about. And there are teams here. And you can try to avoid being on a team, but people watch what you say to see which team you're on. It's kind of creepy and stupid.
Regarding this incident, my opinion is:

first Landy hiring: stupid and careless
pamplin hiring: brutal and selfish
second landy hiring: stupid, careless, brutal and selfish.

Whoever made the decisions, or had the power to change them and didn't, can have those adjectives applied to their decision-making.

Am I judgmental? Yes.
Emily - the challenge on this board is not to get sucked into the vortex of a team or faction. 

And, even if you just look at facts, and opine, someone is going to try to classify you on one team or another. 

This would have been unheard of back-in-the day.  Your father would most likely agree.  We were/are Beach Boys fans.   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on December 19, 2015, 01:12:53 PM
I thought that Marilyn's decision to employ Landy (and also Landy's second stint) had the blessing of BRI. Wasn't it approved via a vote that Beach Boys' concert revenue would be used to defray some of Landy's fees? So, while Marilyn might've made the initial contact with Landy, I'm not sure many (any?) were objecting to his hiring.
Sheriff - that may all be true.  I am not privy to that information.  

But, who knew that this would all be subject to the "law of diminishing returns" - it looked as though it was working initially.  

Who knew that a unethical monster was created?  

Who could have predicted that things would go so wrong?

Crystal ball anyone?   I don't have one.
filledeplage, I'm not criticizing or second guessing Marilyn's decision. Actually, I'm just saying that she wasn't "out there by herself" or acting alone. I thought I read that concert revenue was being targeted toward paying for Landy's treatment. I think that would have to be agreed upon via a vote, which, in effect says that others were agreeing with or at the very least supporting Marilyn's decision.
Sheriff - I said "with or without counsel."  So she may well have had advice. And as to the BRI issue, I have no direct  knowledge.  It was reported that they subsidized the treatment.  

And why should they not help a fellow band member? Going back to Carl's CO issues, they pitched in to do concerts to help fulfill Carl's obligations.  It perhaps set a precedence to come to the aid of a band member who required it.

They should help a fellow band member, no question about that.

My sub-point, in addition to not "blaming" Marilyn for her idea/decision, is that sometimes in the Beach Boys' world, individuals are singled out and criticized for making decisions that affect the group, positively and/or negatively, when in reality, the decision in question was discussed, voted on, and approved by others. I believe, to some extent, Marilyn's decision falls into that category.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Empire Of Love on December 19, 2015, 01:13:02 PM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL
EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band? 

Pledge: how is the suspicious timing of a book release negated because the author is a principal instead of a bit player?  Maybe one is riding coat tails for money and one is doing it to re-write history, but suspicious timing is suspicious timing.  You can't poo poo one and not the other.  Well, you can, it just betrays your bias when you do.

EoL


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 19, 2015, 01:21:12 PM
Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL

End of C50 tour - September 28th, 2012.

Love & Mercy announced - June 23rd, 2013.

Mike's book announced - 20th November 2014.

Yup, not too long after at all...

Mike's book is due for a summer 2016 publication.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 01:26:54 PM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL
EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band?  

Pledge: how is the suspicious timing of a book release negated because the author is a principal instead of a bit player?  Maybe one is riding coat tails for money and one is doing it to re-write history, but suspicious timing is suspicious timing.  You can't poo poo one and not the other.  Well, you can, it just betrays your bias when you do.
EoL
EoL - I have no idea what this "Pledge" term connotes.  Curious timing?  You bet.  I would call it "temporally related" (in time)  to a very successful bio film on Brian,  And a 50th of Pet Sounds, very successful Touring Band schedule.  That is not enough?  Timing?  

A bit player could have an agenda to distract from a wonderful comeback that Brian has enjoyed, and tell tales from a time when it appears that he and his brothers had diminished capacity and expose alleged details that distract from their legacy.  And events that are not so different from any one else who has been addicted to alcohol or drugs and act in a way that is not consistent with their actual personalities.  They tend to misbehave and that is part of the disease.  Health and disease issues are generally private matters.


  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 19, 2015, 01:29:37 PM
Emily wins the thread with clear and concise logic. The BBs had no idea about treating BW's illnesses and really dropped the ball with celebrity "doctors" and goons to watch over BW. BW's condition was apparent to need serious medical help of real doctors by the mid 1970s.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 01:31:11 PM
Emily wins the thread with clear and concise logic. The BBs had no idea about treating BW's illnesses and really dropped the ball with celebrity "doctors" and goons to watch over BW. BW's condition was apparent to need serious medical help of real doctors by the mid 1970s.
Smile Brian - congratulations on your judgeship. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on December 19, 2015, 01:31:27 PM
It's pretty obvious there's a whole lot of politics surrounding whom we're supposed to think good thoughts about and whom we're supposed to think bad thoughts about. And there are teams here. And you can try to avoid being on a team, but people watch what you say to see which team you're on. It's kind of creepy and stupid.
I utterly agree. It's been going on since the reunion tour ended, and it's just ludicrous. There *are* people who are on "team Brian" or "team Mike", but those are far fewer than the people who get assigned to one or the other side by those people...

Quote
Regarding this incident, my opinion is:

first Landy hiring: stupid and careless
pamplin hiring: brutal and selfish
second landy hiring: stupid, careless, brutal and selfish.

Whoever made the decisions, or had the power to change them and didn't, can have those adjectives applied to their decision-making.

Am I judgmental? Yes.

I agree with the Pamplin hiring being very wrong. I don't know if those who *hired* Landy were in the wrong then -- LANDY was in the wrong, certainly, but I don't know if we can say that anyone could have known that without hindsight. Certainly Brian himself (the wronged party) thinks that it was understandable. The one time I've heard of him sounding annoyed at Melinda in public was a joint interview they did where Melinda criticised Marilyn hiring Landy, and Brian cut her off saying "My wife didn't know he was a crazy man!" and telling Melinda she was wrong.

I also don't know why *anyone* in this thread is blaming Marilyn for -- or saying she had anything to do with -- the second, disastrous, Landy experience. She and Brian divorced in 1979, several years before the return of Landy.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 19, 2015, 01:33:24 PM
Emily wins the thread with clear and concise logic. The BBs had no idea about treating BW's illnesses and really dropped the ball with celebrity "doctors" and goons to watch over BW. BW's condition was apparent to need serious medical help of real doctors by the mid 1970s.
Smile Brian - congratulations on your judgeship. 

congrats on being an ambulance chaser. ::)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on December 19, 2015, 01:44:30 PM
Well this one has certainly gone off the rails hasn't it?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lonely Summer on December 19, 2015, 01:47:23 PM
For our book The Beach Boys In Concert I personally conducted many interviews and much of the stuff in Gaines was indeed confirmed.  In terms of that incident I quote musician Sterling Smith in the book.  He was on that tour and relates the story of how he came to work the day after that infamous meeting and saw Carl being heavily made up to cover his black eye as the BBs were to appear on TV that night.   And-in the book what I stated was that Carl was given painkillers and this contributed to his slurred appearance in the footage filmed at Melbourne that makes the rounds.  The really bad night in Perth happened a week later and is only available on audio.  I didn't say that the tour led to his bottoming out-as he was already in bad shape-but the behind the scenes crap going on that time would drive almost anyone to drink!!! So Carl deserves a free pass on that tour (by the way-almost his only public misstep in a 30+ year career!!! Pretty damn good)
Amen!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 01:54:04 PM
Emily wins the thread with clear and concise logic. The BBs had no idea about treating BW's illnesses and really dropped the ball with celebrity "doctors" and goons to watch over BW. BW's condition was apparent to need serious medical help of real doctors by the mid 1970s.
Smile Brian - congratulations on your judgeship. 

congrats on being an ambulance chaser. ::)
Smile Brian - you contributed little real information to this thread and sat back and just declared a winner like a referee.  A judge is a referee. 
   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 19, 2015, 01:58:44 PM

I agree with the Pamplin hiring being very wrong. I don't know if those who *hired* Landy were in the wrong then -- LANDY was in the wrong, certainly, but I don't know if we can say that anyone could have known that without hindsight. Certainly Brian himself (the wronged party) thinks that it was understandable. The one time I've heard of him sounding annoyed at Melinda in public was a joint interview they did where Melinda criticised Marilyn hiring Landy, and Brian cut her off saying "My wife didn't know he was a crazy man!" and telling Melinda she was wrong.

Here's where I'm a lot more judgmental than you and Brian Wilson. I have some ambivalence about being judgmental. I have a lot of respect for your lack of judgmentalism (is that a word?) and obviously Brian Wilson is extreme in this respect. I make careless, stupid and selfish mistakes all the time and it can hurt to be called out on them. But I also think it's wrong for me to not be mindful. It's wrong for me to make those mistakes. And I should be judged for them. So, I can have empathy for someone making a stupid, careless and selfish mistake, but still judge it to be those things. One shouldn't think I'm saying someone is a bad person in general for making stupid, careless or selfish mistakes. I feel pretty confident that everyone has.

I hope and think I've never made a mistake of brutality and I have little empathy there.

Regarding the first hiring of Landy, I have no idea what the process was, but I think people should've been more careful in choosing a psychologist.
Regarding the hiring of Pamplin, the only description of the process I've heard was in his quotes above (perhaps in the Gaines book, but I haven't read that in at least a decade and only have fuzzy memories of being grossed out). It seems from what he said that Marilyn Rutherford-Wilson was discussing a residential treatment program and that Stephen Love wanted to hire Rocky and Stan.

I also don't know why *anyone* in this thread is blaming Marilyn for -- or saying she had anything to do with -- the second, disastrous, Landy experience. She and Brian divorced in 1979, several years before the return of Landy.
Seems reasonable to conclude she wasn't involved.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 19, 2015, 01:59:39 PM
Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 02:11:34 PM
Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.
So, after reading some of the stuff in this thread, I take it that you endorse the publication of all this alleged negative behavioral information coming out about the Wilson brothers that happened when they were under the influence of a substance that skewed their behavior.  They were afflicted with a disease.  

Even by these standards should there not be some privacy considerations for a health matter?

No one is disputing (I am not.) that the care was not what it is today.  

There was no widely-respected addiction treatment. You are imposing a non-existent standard for those years.  

In fact one fairly local medical school just announced an Addiction Medicine track for doctors in training this week. It did not exist in the 60's.  We have enough dead 60's musicians to back that up. Morrison, Hendrix, Joplin.  Brian was lucky to just live through it until he got better treatment almost 30 years later.  

University of Buffalo has had a one year fellowship beginning in 2011 and there were about 10 at that time which were accredited. 
    


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Empire Of Love on December 19, 2015, 02:23:41 PM
Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL

End of C50 tour - September 28th, 2012.

Love & Mercy announced - June 23rd, 2013.

Mike's book announced - 20th November 2014.

Yup, not too long after at all...

Mike's book is due for a summer 2016 publication.

I stand corrected, it is the hype/release of L&M and announcement of Brian's book I had in mind:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg484970.html#msg484970

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg485029.html#msg485029

EoL


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 19, 2015, 02:28:28 PM

I stand corrected, it is the hype/release of L&M and announcement of Brian's book I had in mind:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg484970.html#msg484970

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg485029.html#msg485029

EoL
Think you mean Mike.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Empire Of Love on December 19, 2015, 02:33:50 PM

I stand corrected, it is the hype/release of L&M and announcement of Brian's book I had in mind:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg484970.html#msg484970

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg485029.html#msg485029

EoL
Think you mean Mike.

Nope, Brian.  It was suggested previously on this board that the announcement/release of Mike's book was timed to coincide with the flurry of new interest in Brian and his story.  In particular the movie and Brian's book.  I'm not saying it was timed in this way, but it was previously suggested and the idea was dismissed at the time.

EoL


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Empire Of Love on December 19, 2015, 02:36:08 PM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL
EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band?  

Pledge: how is the suspicious timing of a book release negated because the author is a principal instead of a bit player?  Maybe one is riding coat tails for money and one is doing it to re-write history, but suspicious timing is suspicious timing.  You can't poo poo one and not the other.  Well, you can, it just betrays your bias when you do.
EoL
EoL - I have no idea what this "Pledge" term connotes.  Curious timing?  You bet.  I would call it "temporally related" (in time)  to a very successful bio film on Brian,  And a 50th of Pet Sounds, very successful Touring Band schedule.  That is not enough?  Timing?  

A bit player could have an agenda to distract from a wonderful comeback that Brian has enjoyed, and tell tales from a time when it appears that he and his brothers had diminished capacity and expose alleged details that distract from their legacy.  And events that are not so different from any one else who has been addicted to alcohol or drugs and act in a way that is not consistent with their actual personalities.  They tend to misbehave and that is part of the disease.  Health and disease issues are generally private matters.


  

Sorry about that.  My phone auto-corrects my abbreviation of your name to pledge.  I pledge to keep an eye on that in the future.  ;)

EoL


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 19, 2015, 02:37:15 PM
Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.
It's all very complicated but it does seem like finances and the welfare of the band as a whole superseded the welfare of Brian Wilson in some of these decisions. People have made references to avoiding bad press; getting Brian back in the studio rapidly, etc. Those were speculations though. The motives are fuzzy to me.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 02:42:38 PM
One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL
EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band?  

Pledge: how is the suspicious timing of a book release negated because the author is a principal instead of a bit player?  Maybe one is riding coat tails for money and one is doing it to re-write history, but suspicious timing is suspicious timing.  You can't poo poo one and not the other.  Well, you can, it just betrays your bias when you do.
EoL
EoL - I have no idea what this "Pledge" term connotes.  Curious timing?  You bet.  I would call it "temporally related" (in time)  to a very successful bio film on Brian,  And a 50th of Pet Sounds, very successful Touring Band schedule.  That is not enough?  Timing?  

A bit player could have an agenda to distract from a wonderful comeback that Brian has enjoyed, and tell tales from a time when it appears that he and his brothers had diminished capacity and expose alleged details that distract from their legacy.  And events that are not so different from any one else who has been addicted to alcohol or drugs and act in a way that is not consistent with their actual personalities.  They tend to misbehave and that is part of the disease.  Health and disease issues are generally private matters.   
Sorry about that.  My phone auto-corrects my abbreviation of your name to pledge.  I pledge to keep an eye on that in the future.  ;)

EoL
EoL - That's funny.  No problem.

You are more dedicated than I, responding on a phone.

My iPad has a mind of it's own and likes to think for me, and substitute a word I did not type.   :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 19, 2015, 02:43:16 PM
Yeah it seemed like a business decision more than a personal need for BW to get healthy again. They misunderstood that BW only needed to be a commerical entity to be happy again, it was far more complex than that and Melinda understood that.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 19, 2015, 02:44:22 PM

I stand corrected, it is the hype/release of L&M and announcement of Brian's book I had in mind:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg484970.html#msg484970

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg485029.html#msg485029

EoL
Think you mean Mike.

Nope, Brian.  It was suggested previously on this board that the announcement/release of Mike's book was timed to coincide with the flurry of new interest in Brian and his story.  In particular the movie and Brian's book.  I'm not saying it was timed in this way, but it was previously suggested and the idea was dismissed at the time.

EoL
Oh. Got it. Sorry. I thought the above post read like Brian's book announcement was timed to go with Brian's movie hype (perhaps the case), and since I understood the point you were trying to make, I thought you meant to write that Mike's book announcement was timed to go with Brian's movie hype.
Now I understand that you were saying an implied Mike's book announcement was timed to go with  Brian's movie hype and Brian's book announcement.
I will think you are amazing if you understand what I just wrote.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 02:51:54 PM
Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.
It's all very complicated but it does seem like finances and the welfare of the band as a whole superseded the welfare of Brian Wilson in some of these decisions. People have made references to avoiding bad press; getting Brian back in the studio rapidly, etc. Those were speculations though. The motives are fuzzy to me.
Emily - that is completely inconsistent with the way that the band "had Carl's back" during the CO crisis, which happened in the middle of the whole SMiLE era.

They did what they had to do to do free shows to keep Carl out of jail and in  compliance with whatever the federal court required.  Why would they not support Brian?  

SMiLE Brian - you completely ignore what the record company did (or did not do) with Pet Sounds promotion during that era.  It had a domino effect that appeared to shake everyone's confidence.  

And the Spring 1967 tour (following Carl's arrest and court appearance) where they found in Europe that they were promoted as the "surf band" image and not the avant-garde band they had advanced to.  There is a big picture here.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 19, 2015, 03:07:47 PM
Nobody in the band or the public gave a crap about Carl's CO status. It was the question of BW making money for the family and the release of Smile to the public that mattered.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 19, 2015, 03:19:24 PM
Nobody in the band or the public gave a crap about Carl's CO status. It was the question of BW making money for the family and the release of Smile to the public that mattered.

It is very troubling that you actually believe that.  That CO case dragged on for about 5 years.   

Carl was doing a lot of the leads and, whose voice was so close (the family vocal cords) to Brian that he was critical to touring while Brian was not. 

Don't forget that Brother Records was established in that era. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 19, 2015, 03:23:12 PM
I feel like Carl avoided the draft to keep the BBs touring machine going more than anything else. It's not like the BBs could have taken a break from constant touring instead and "recharged" their recording energies.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 19, 2015, 03:25:40 PM
Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.
It's all very complicated but it does seem like finances and the welfare of the band as a whole superseded the welfare of Brian Wilson in some of these decisions. People have made references to avoiding bad press; getting Brian back in the studio rapidly, etc. Those were speculations though. The motives are fuzzy to me.
Emily - that is completely inconsistent with the way that the band "had Carl's back" during the CO crisis, which happened in the middle of the whole SMiLE era.

They did what they had to do to do free shows to keep Carl out of jail and in  compliance with whatever the federal court required.  Why would they not support Brian?  
  
Like I said, it's fuzzy to me.
I guess it would not have been good for the band if Carl went to Vietnam, so I suppose it was in the band's interest as well as Carl's to support his case and the court's decision.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: jeffh on December 19, 2015, 04:20:24 PM
I feel like Carl avoided the draft to keep the BBs touring machine going more than anything else. It's not like the BBs could have taken a break from constant touring instead and "recharged" their recording energies.
[/quote


]He probably avoided the draft so he wouldn't get killed in Vietnam,


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 19, 2015, 04:24:30 PM
Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL

End of C50 tour - September 28th, 2012.

Love & Mercy announced - June 23rd, 2013.

Mike's book announced - 20th November 2014.

Yup, not too long after at all...

Mike's book is due for a summer 2016 publication.

2011

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/movies/2011/06/brian-wilson-movie-pet-sounds-moverman-wells-pohlad-beach-boys-smile.html


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on December 19, 2015, 04:27:37 PM
I feel like Carl avoided the draft to keep the BBs touring machine going more than anything else. It's not like the BBs could have taken a break from constant touring instead and "recharged" their recording energies.

I disagree there...my understanding was, like many Americans during that time period, his beliefs were genuine and deep-rooted.  I've never heard a word otherwise as far as Carl was concerned.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Ian on December 19, 2015, 04:28:27 PM
I think the case can be made that the bbs were thinking commercially when they forced Brian into the studio to make 15 big ones with the help of Landy. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that while Landy was hired to get Brian well enough to record again, the band also thought that getting back to work would be good for Brian. I do think however that the bands decision to make Brian tour with them again in the 1976 to 1982 period was a cynical move.  Often they signed contracts specifying that he'd be with them as on the 1978 Australian tour and 1980 European tour, even though it was clear that the touring at that time wasn't doing him much good and by 1978 he usually looked miserable behind the keyboard. I don't think they were looking after his interests there.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Ian on December 19, 2015, 04:31:05 PM
That being said maybe the band felt that if he was with them on the road at least they could keep an eye on him.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 19, 2015, 04:40:52 PM
I feel like Carl avoided the draft to keep the BBs touring machine going more than anything else. It's not like the BBs could have taken a break from constant touring instead and "recharged" their recording energies.

I disagree there...my understanding was, like many Americans during that time period, his beliefs were genuine and deep-rooted.  I've never heard a word otherwise as far as Carl was concerned.

Interesting timeline and detail here...

http://reasonabledoubt.org/criminallawblog/entry/january-3-1967-beach-boy-carl-wilson-becomes-draft-dodger-today-in-crime-history

Any detail on what Carl did to object between his notice and his filing  for “conscientious objector” status with his local selective service draft board about Jan 20, 17 days after he should have reported?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 19, 2015, 04:42:05 PM
Ian, both of your posts make sense - underscoring how an act can be interpreted many ways. Between you and Andrew Hickey, I'm beating a retreat and acknowledging that generosity is better than judging. Though I don't think any amount of being better than me will make me retreat on Pamplin.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on December 19, 2015, 04:47:27 PM
I feel like Carl avoided the draft to keep the BBs touring machine going more than anything else. It's not like the BBs could have taken a break from constant touring instead and "recharged" their recording energies.

I disagree there...my understanding was, like many Americans during that time period, his beliefs were genuine and deep-rooted.  I've never heard a word otherwise as far as Carl was concerned.

Interesting timeline and detail here...

http://reasonabledoubt.org/criminallawblog/entry/january-3-1967-beach-boy-carl-wilson-becomes-draft-dodger-today-in-crime-history

Any detail on what Carl did to object between his notice and his filing  for “conscientious objector” status with his local selective service draft board about Jan 20, 17 days after he should have reported?

Hmmm...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on December 19, 2015, 05:20:33 PM
 Apparently Carl refused to perform his community service as an orderly at a Los Angeles veterans hospital, due to the lack of quality Cold Cuts in the cafeteria.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on December 19, 2015, 05:34:51 PM
What would the perks be?

I'd kick in $25 to get a genuine sock in the jaw by the Rockster himself.

What a great photo op at the book signings. You know how like if you get a picture with a famous boxer :-D


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: jeffh on December 19, 2015, 07:07:19 PM
Apparently Carl refused to perform his community service as an orderly at a Los Angeles veterans hospital, due to the lack of quality Cold Cuts in the cafeteria.



That does pose a good question. Why didn't he report to fulfill his assigned job as orderly at the VA hospital?  I knew a guy with a law degree who was ordered to do the same and he complied .



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 19, 2015, 07:45:44 PM
edit..

Not sure now if this post is related to Carl so I have deleted it.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 19, 2015, 08:38:02 PM

Well, at least now we know which faction turns every thread into a Brian v Mike thread, and it isn't the faction that contains Smile Brian and OSD.  Just when those two began to behave SJS comes out of the shadows and, as per usual, is shortly thereafter supported by Mike's Beard and Cam Mott.


Excuse me, what are you talking about?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on December 19, 2015, 09:25:53 PM

Nobody in the band or the public gave a crap about Carl's CO status. It was the question of BW making money for the family and the release of Smile to the public that mattered.


You obviously weren't around back then.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: DonnyL on December 19, 2015, 10:29:42 PM
To Emily and the other sensible posters in this thread ...

I think the initial decision to go with Landy was made because he was totally unorthodox and had a good track record. Marilyn, Carl, and the family probably figured (correctly in my opinion) that Brian's situation was unusual, and being that he's a sensitive guy, this program made sense because Landy approached Brian in a way that couldn't be done in a conventional treatment scenario. I think it's generally accepted (maybe I'm wrong?) that the first Landy treatment was relatively successful. And probably the second one too, for the first couple years.

The idea that the initial treatment program was commercially motivated seems too black and white to me. I think that to most people around him, the idea of a "healthy" Brian Wilson included making music again. And I think BW was on board. There's an interview around the time where he talks about wanting to "experience people. And make money of course." The commercial aspect was obviously opportunistic, but I don't think it was malicious.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Fall Breaks on December 19, 2015, 11:36:48 PM
Pure speculation here, but maybe they were reluctant to hospitalize Brian after his 1968 hospitalization? Hence, Landy. Just a thought.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 20, 2015, 12:58:09 AM

Any detail on what Carl did to object between his notice and his filing  for “conscientious objector” status with his local selective service draft board about Jan 20, 17 days after he should have reported?

Can't claim to know what he did at home, but he was in the studio some:

  3 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains ['Do A Lot', 'Mission Pak', 'Bridge to
       Indians' and 'pickup to 3rd verse' vocals, 'Bag of Tricks' and 'Part 1 tag' - Columbia]
  5 - Smile  session: Heroes And Villains - part 2/'Bicycle Rider' vocals [Western]
  9 - Smile session: Wonderful ['version 2 (rock with me, Henry') incl. vocals - Western]
20 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia] (x)
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains ['Children Were Raised' and 'Whistling Bridge'
        vocals, 'Cantina' section/'All Day' [Columbia]


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ChicagoAnn on December 20, 2015, 01:02:49 AM
I feel like Carl avoided the draft to keep the BBs touring machine going more than anything else. It's not like the BBs could have taken a break from constant touring instead and "recharged" their recording energies.

It wasn't easy to get CO status when Carl was going through it in 1966-67. It was probably harmful to his career at that time. Unlike many of his contemporaries, he couldn't get a college deferment. Given his long-term spiritual beliefs, it seems likely it truly was a question of conscience. I was a little kid then, but from what my elders have told me and having known many Viet Nam vets, at that early time, going through the CO thing was a difficult process. It would have been probably easier (and especially among some people more socially acceptable) for him to go along and be drafted. It must have been scary for him knowing that he could have gone to prison. The band was surely a consideration, but it can't have been the only thing. Did Carl's **ahem** biography (that I didn't read) discuss this at all?

I haven't scrolled back, but I know I brought up Rocky's relationship with Marilyn in an earlier post.  I sure as hell hope people didn't think I was judging Marilyn about it as. Believe me, I have no room to judge anyone in that area. My point was that Rocky's comments in Gaines' book were douchey.  Like locker-room douchey. I hope that he's grown up a bit since then.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 20, 2015, 02:09:53 AM

Any detail on what Carl did to object between his notice and his filing  for “conscientious objector” status with his local selective service draft board about Jan 20, 17 days after he should have reported?

Can't claim to know what he did at home, but he was in the studio some:

  3 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains ['Do A Lot', 'Mission Pak', 'Bridge to
       Indians' and 'pickup to 3rd verse' vocals, 'Bag of Tricks' and 'Part 1 tag' - Columbia]
  5 - Smile  session: Heroes And Villains - part 2/'Bicycle Rider' vocals [Western]
  9 - Smile session: Wonderful ['version 2 (rock with me, Henry') incl. vocals - Western]
20 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia] (x)
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains ['Children Were Raised' and 'Whistling Bridge'
        vocals, 'Cantina' section/'All Day' [Columbia]

No what he did to object. Going from when he got his notice to Jan 20. Letters to his congressman, senators, lawyers etc or did he let it slide completely?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 20, 2015, 08:26:32 AM
Contained within the footnote 1, from the case United States of America, Appellee, v. Carl Dean Wilson, Appellant, US Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit.  Jan. 8, 1971, Rehearing Denied, Feb. 8, 1971.

"...The Beach Boys are most concerned in touring the State Mental Hospitals and having the various  people in these institutions hear and have available Rock and Roll Groups donating their time.  As well as teaching these people the art of music writing, playing, formation of groups and  music producing."

This was in addition to, "There is a need for Rock and Roll Groups to tour various Army Installations, State Mental Hospitals and Vietnam.  The Beach Boys are willing to render their services in touring these installations and institutions.  The Armed Forces News has approached The Beach Boys on numerous occasions for their services and interest in touring various Army bases.  The Armed Forces News has indicated the need for Rock and roll groups to donate their services for the servicemen in Vietnam...The Beach Boys are willing to tour any and all Vietnam installations especially since our troops have requested and are desirous in seeing and hearing Rock and Roll groups.  We are aware of the expenses involved in these type tours and are willing to render our services without any cost to our State Department and the Department of the Army as expeditiously as possible."

"Since the Beach Boys have toured the World over the past five (5) years they have been approached by many servicemen asking and pleading for them to appear at their various Army Bases."

This is found at http://openjurist.org/436/f2d/972/united-states-v-wilson 



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Autotune on December 20, 2015, 08:32:31 AM
So... Is Rocky out? Like Gaines and Daro?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 20, 2015, 10:55:42 AM

Any detail on what Carl did to object between his notice and his filing  for “conscientious objector” status with his local selective service draft board about Jan 20, 17 days after he should have reported?

Can't claim to know what he did at home, but he was in the studio some:

  3 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains ['Do A Lot', 'Mission Pak', 'Bridge to
       Indians' and 'pickup to 3rd verse' vocals, 'Bag of Tricks' and 'Part 1 tag' - Columbia]
  5 - Smile  session: Heroes And Villains - part 2/'Bicycle Rider' vocals [Western]
  9 - Smile session: Wonderful ['version 2 (rock with me, Henry') incl. vocals - Western]
20 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia] (x)
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains ['Children Were Raised' and 'Whistling Bridge'
        vocals, 'Cantina' section/'All Day' [Columbia]

No what he did to object. Going from when he got his notice to Jan 20. Letters to his congressman, senators, lawyers etc or did he let it slide completely?
One didn't have to actively object. One had to establish that one has (and previously had) a philosophical or theological moral stance that one should not participate in any military activity.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Ian on December 20, 2015, 12:15:33 PM
I discussed this in the in concert book. On page 94 I noted that a judge agreed to let him serve in an alternative manner.  Carl and the bbs thought that they could fulfill the requirement by playing free shows at prisons and hospitals which they did occasionally in 1968 and 1969. On page 126 I note that after a long hiatus the Los Angeles district attorney announced in August 1969 that Carl hadn't satisfied the requirements and would be indicted. Carl had reported to LA county hospital but objected to the jobs he was offered as alternative service such as cleaning bed pans at va hospitals and suggested he could do more good doing concerts, etc.  the draft board ignored his request and he was indicted and trial began on November 4 1969. On page 132 I note that on January 29 1970 he was given three years probation and fined 4,000. He was ordered to spend two years as an institutional helper at the county department of hospitals. Carl refused and spent another year convincing a judge to let him do other things such as a voting drive at concerts


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Ian on December 20, 2015, 12:18:49 PM
The case was settled in September 1971. After that Carl accompanied by a few musician friends did some shows at prisons and on the spring 1972 tour the bbs had voter registration booths set up at every venue


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 20, 2015, 12:21:18 PM
To Emily and the other sensible posters in this thread ...

I think the initial decision to go with Landy was made because he was totally unorthodox and had a good track record. Marilyn, Carl, and the family probably figured (correctly in my opinion) that Brian's situation was unusual, and being that he's a sensitive guy, this program made sense because Landy approached Brian in a way that couldn't be done in a conventional treatment scenario. I think it's generally accepted (maybe I'm wrong?) that the first Landy treatment was relatively successful. And probably the second one too, for the first couple years.

The idea that the initial treatment program was commercially motivated seems too black and white to me. I think that to most people around him, the idea of a "healthy" Brian Wilson included making music again. And I think BW was on board. There's an interview around the time where he talks about wanting to "experience people. And make money of course." The commercial aspect was obviously opportunistic, but I don't think it was malicious.
Whether it was successful is subjective. I think that to call it successful one must focus on criteria that have to do with Brian's practical ability to function over his emotional well-being. If you read the contemporary RS or New West articles (the latter of which I haven't read for a long time, does anyone have it? I'll go look on the scans thread) it's pretty evident that he was not well and was being treated in completely humiliating ways that must have been bad for his psyche, and that the focus was entirely on his actions and not at all on his root problems. Contemporary articles from the second period indicate that as well.

The fact that he was marched out and forced to participate in the interviews, most obviously against his will, is evidence enough that his health wasn't a priority. One can easily argue that making music would be beneficial and healing and give him joy and a will to engage, but interviews and touring were never things that he indicated were fulfilling.

It's also evident from those articles that Landy was a charlatan whose main concern was his own image.
 
So, 1. for a job of this magnitude and importance one should still check someone's professional reputation. Psychology attracts a pretty loose bunch and one could find an unconventional and flexible psychologist that had earned some respect and credentials beyond working with Alice Cooper. I'd also think that his evident prioritizing of schmoozing with stars over serious work would tip people off.
2. Once he swindled his way in and things got rolling, alarm bells should've gone off and the plug should've been pulled.

But, I wouldn't characterize it as malicious. Or even conscious. My guess is that the first Landy hiring came down to a lack of sophistication and self-deception.
Regarding the former, I'm repeatedly surprised at how unsophisticated the people around the Beach Boys still were. I think, reading about Murry and reading his letter and interviews, that he was jealous of professionals and passed that on to his sons as suspicion. They seem to have avoided hiring professionals, other than music-makers (instrumentalists, engineers, etc.), for anything.
Regarding the latter, I think humans are greatly skilled at convincing themselves that what is good for them is good.

eta: haven't found the New West article but a Oui article from the same period is here:  http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10376.50.html
and it shows pretty well what Brian Wilson wanted vs. what he got.

e again ta: I've seen in multiple contemporary interviews that Landy threatened to "put [Brian] on the funny farm" (from Oui interview linked above, but I've seen it in other interviews as well). The wrongness of that, both in terms of "treating" BW through crazy coercive threats, and in terms of scaring him away from possibly beneficial treatments is, well, just is.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: jeffh on December 20, 2015, 02:23:06 PM
Landy also worked with Gig Young an actor from the 40s and 50s. He later killed his wife and committed suicide. Not too successful with that client .


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 20, 2015, 03:06:24 PM
Sounds like the Boys must have very much had Carl's back and were willing to give up much money and effort on Carl's behalf.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: DonnyL on December 20, 2015, 07:49:27 PM
To Emily and the other sensible posters in this thread ...

I think the initial decision to go with Landy was made because he was totally unorthodox and had a good track record. Marilyn, Carl, and the family probably figured (correctly in my opinion) that Brian's situation was unusual, and being that he's a sensitive guy, this program made sense because Landy approached Brian in a way that couldn't be done in a conventional treatment scenario. I think it's generally accepted (maybe I'm wrong?) that the first Landy treatment was relatively successful. And probably the second one too, for the first couple years.

The idea that the initial treatment program was commercially motivated seems too black and white to me. I think that to most people around him, the idea of a "healthy" Brian Wilson included making music again. And I think BW was on board. There's an interview around the time where he talks about wanting to "experience people. And make money of course." The commercial aspect was obviously opportunistic, but I don't think it was malicious.
Whether it was successful is subjective. I think that to call it successful one must focus on criteria that have to do with Brian's practical ability to function over his emotional well-being. If you read the contemporary RS or New West articles (the latter of which I haven't read for a long time, does anyone have it? I'll go look on the scans thread) it's pretty evident that he was not well and was being treated in completely humiliating ways that must have been bad for his psyche, and that the focus was entirely on his actions and not at all on his root problems. Contemporary articles from the second period indicate that as well.

The fact that he was marched out and forced to participate in the interviews, most obviously against his will, is evidence enough that his health wasn't a priority. One can easily argue that making music would be beneficial and healing and give him joy and a will to engage, but interviews and touring were never things that he indicated were fulfilling.

It's also evident from those articles that Landy was a charlatan whose main concern was his own image.
 
So, 1. for a job of this magnitude and importance one should still check someone's professional reputation. Psychology attracts a pretty loose bunch and one could find an unconventional and flexible psychologist that had earned some respect and credentials beyond working with Alice Cooper. I'd also think that his evident prioritizing of schmoozing with stars over serious work would tip people off.
2. Once he swindled his way in and things got rolling, alarm bells should've gone off and the plug should've been pulled.

But, I wouldn't characterize it as malicious. Or even conscious. My guess is that the first Landy hiring came down to a lack of sophistication and self-deception.
Regarding the former, I'm repeatedly surprised at how unsophisticated the people around the Beach Boys still were. I think, reading about Murry and reading his letter and interviews, that he was jealous of professionals and passed that on to his sons as suspicion. They seem to have avoided hiring professionals, other than music-makers (instrumentalists, engineers, etc.), for anything.
Regarding the latter, I think humans are greatly skilled at convincing themselves that what is good for them is good.

eta: haven't found the New West article but a Oui article from the same period is here:  http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10376.50.html
and it shows pretty well what Brian Wilson wanted vs. what he got.

e again ta: I've seen in multiple contemporary interviews that Landy threatened to "put [Brian] on the funny farm" (from Oui interview linked above, but I've seen it in other interviews as well). The wrongness of that, both in terms of "treating" BW through crazy coercive threats, and in terms of scaring him away from possibly beneficial treatments is, well, just is.

I understand where you're coming from, and agree on some points.

I'm certainly not defending Landy, or even stating that I personally found him to be "successful" at treating BW. Really not even defending the family's decisions, but I suppose I am understanding of why they may have made the decisions that they made.

And it's been mentioned before, but it's worth noting that the mid-1970s was a very different time. The "unsophisticated" angle makes sense, though I'm not sure I would be comfortable using that term. These were just people who came from working class backgrounds. The world was a different place then too. I think that Brian and his family were open to more unorthodox (maybe even "faddish"?) lifestyle choices. These are folks that were into with TM, astrology, and certainly lots of other things. The idea of a "straight" treatment program might have seemed like it wouldn't work.

So here's this guy who maybe seemed crazy enough to get Brian back to work, back on track, etc. And yes, the concerts, interviews, etc. were obviously strictly business and not in Brian's best interest (in my opinion).

So Landy's eventually fired, and the re-hiring in 1983 was clearly done out of desperation. As to how or why the family "let" it get to that point ... I guess that's what we're discussing. But I can't help but think of interviews with Carl and Dennis in which they seem to just think Brian's just being Brian. "What's so crazy about wanting to stay at home? He's crazy!", etc. ... This was their older brother, and I don't think he was perceived as being "mentally ill" until it was getting very bad. But who knows.

I guess that's what it all comes down to to me ... we weren't there, and it's pretty easy to say "would have, could have, should have" through our enlightened lense of the modern era.

On a personal note, my dad is paranoid schizophrenic, and I dealt with lots of difficult things growing up. And you always sort of want the person to be "normal" (especially someone who you look up to), so you see what you want to see. And my mom did leave my dad when I was very young when it came to a breaking point. But even as my dad was sleeping with knives under his pillow, sealing the drapes with clothespins, and talking about how chips had been implanted into his brain during an appendectomy ... the people close to him just thought he was having "a spell", as he used to refer to it. The 1970s-early '80s were a different time indeed. And I guess since I come from an "unsophisticated" background myself, I just relate to why they may have made the decisions that they did.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 20, 2015, 08:36:11 PM
I think we shouldn't second guess loved one's best efforts and suspect we might be over estimating how effective the so-called best treatment available might have been at the time.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 20, 2015, 09:30:38 PM

I understand where you're coming from, and agree on some points.

I'm certainly not defending Landy, or even stating that I personally found him to be "successful" at treating BW. Really not even defending the family's decisions, but I suppose I am understanding of why they may have made the decisions that they made.

And it's been mentioned before, but it's worth noting that the mid-1970s was a very different time. The "unsophisticated" angle makes sense, though I'm not sure I would be comfortable using that term. These were just people who came from working class backgrounds. The world was a different place then too. I think that Brian and his family were open to more unorthodox (maybe even "faddish"?) lifestyle choices. These are folks that were into with TM, astrology, and certainly lots of other things. The idea of a "straight" treatment program might have seemed like it wouldn't work.

So here's this guy who maybe seemed crazy enough to get Brian back to work, back on track, etc. And yes, the concerts, interviews, etc. were obviously strictly business and not in Brian's best interest (in my opinion).

So Landy's eventually fired, and the re-hiring in 1983 was clearly done out of desperation. As to how or why the family "let" it get to that point ... I guess that's what we're discussing. But I can't help but think of interviews with Carl and Dennis in which they seem to just think Brian's just being Brian. "What's so crazy about wanting to stay at home? He's crazy!", etc. ... This was their older brother, and I don't think he was perceived as being "mentally ill" until it was getting very bad. But who knows.

I guess that's what it all comes down to to me ... we weren't there, and it's pretty easy to say "would have, could have, should have" through our enlightened lense of the modern era.

On a personal note, my dad is paranoid schizophrenic, and I dealt with lots of difficult things growing up. And you always sort of want the person to be "normal" (especially someone who you look up to), so you see what you want to see. And my mom did leave my dad when I was very young when it came to a breaking point. But even as my dad was sleeping with knives under his pillow, sealing the drapes with clothespins, and talking about how chips had been implanted into his brain during an appendectomy ... the people close to him just thought he was having "a spell", as he used to refer to it. The 1970s-early '80s were a different time indeed. And I guess since I come from an "unsophisticated" background myself, I just relate to why they may have made the decisions that they did.
First of all, I followed your link and love the music - is it you? Also, the posts on the site - are those you? I plan to purchase once I've recovered from Christmas. I found the posts really interesting and familiar - kind of how I could think back before I had a kid. Now I'm just on auto-pilot.

I can see where 'conventional' might be a point against a conventional psychologist to people who are into subud and est and TM.
Rereading those articles reminded me how much degradation Brian lived with under Landy, though. And I remember reading the 80's RS Landy article when I was a kid and thinking that it was really f'ed up. And reading the 70s one, it's also obviously f'ed up; the reporter thinks it's f'ed up. Why don't the people who see Brian every day think so?
I feel like people are going to great lengths to justify decisions that turned out to be awful, and I'm not sure why exactly.

On a personal note, your experiences with your dad are similar to my dad's experiences with his mom. I don't know what the outcome was with your dad. They have some pretty good medications now for schizophrenia.
My grandfather wouldn't let my grandmother get treatment. He managed it himself and various family members would help sometimes. But my dad's childhood was a disaster as a result. Once my grandfather died, my dad and his siblings spent a lot of time and effort, in the 1960s when they were kids themselves (one in high school, one college, one just out of college in the Navy) to find her good care. They moved her around once or twice, but eventually found a place that worked, got her off morphine, and worked with her well enough that she ended up living as an outpatient, with occasional stays.

Perhaps, growing up with this history has caused me to take my understanding of the process of identifying and finding treatment for mental health issues for granted, but it also gives me frustration when people say that "back then" no one knew what they were doing, they didn't have options, etc.

So, again I'm being judgmental, but it really frustrates me when something can be done and is being done but the wrong thing is being done. But a better thing could be done if people would just take the step that's right in front of them.

'Unsophisticated' comes off as snobby, I guess. But how do you describe it if someone just doesn't think of asking experts in the field, when that someone has the money and clout to do so? People are saying they were young, inexperienced, didn't know what they were dealing with, impressed by Landy's spiel, etc. which all fits the definition of unsophisticated pretty well.  Unworldly? I don't know. Naïve is maybe best?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 20, 2015, 09:41:56 PM
I think we shouldn't second guess loved one's best efforts and suspect we might be over estimating how effective the so-called best treatment available might have been at the time.
No the second guessing isn't nice. I agree.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 20, 2015, 09:53:25 PM
Everyone, I promise I will not make one more post in this thread questioning or casting doubt on anyone's motives or wisdom in their choice of care for Brian Wilson, which even though the treatments and results were obviously awful, must still have been the best decisions, if you will all stop claiming that in the 1970s there was no good treatment available (I agree that they didn't have the psychiatric medications that are available today, some of which are remarkably effective). And if you don't start claiming that battery is an acceptable way to address mental illness and addiction.
Deal?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: DonnyL on December 20, 2015, 11:11:53 PM

I understand where you're coming from, and agree on some points.

I'm certainly not defending Landy, or even stating that I personally found him to be "successful" at treating BW. Really not even defending the family's decisions, but I suppose I am understanding of why they may have made the decisions that they made.

And it's been mentioned before, but it's worth noting that the mid-1970s was a very different time. The "unsophisticated" angle makes sense, though I'm not sure I would be comfortable using that term. These were just people who came from working class backgrounds. The world was a different place then too. I think that Brian and his family were open to more unorthodox (maybe even "faddish"?) lifestyle choices. These are folks that were into with TM, astrology, and certainly lots of other things. The idea of a "straight" treatment program might have seemed like it wouldn't work.

So here's this guy who maybe seemed crazy enough to get Brian back to work, back on track, etc. And yes, the concerts, interviews, etc. were obviously strictly business and not in Brian's best interest (in my opinion).

So Landy's eventually fired, and the re-hiring in 1983 was clearly done out of desperation. As to how or why the family "let" it get to that point ... I guess that's what we're discussing. But I can't help but think of interviews with Carl and Dennis in which they seem to just think Brian's just being Brian. "What's so crazy about wanting to stay at home? He's crazy!", etc. ... This was their older brother, and I don't think he was perceived as being "mentally ill" until it was getting very bad. But who knows.

I guess that's what it all comes down to to me ... we weren't there, and it's pretty easy to say "would have, could have, should have" through our enlightened lense of the modern era.

On a personal note, my dad is paranoid schizophrenic, and I dealt with lots of difficult things growing up. And you always sort of want the person to be "normal" (especially someone who you look up to), so you see what you want to see. And my mom did leave my dad when I was very young when it came to a breaking point. But even as my dad was sleeping with knives under his pillow, sealing the drapes with clothespins, and talking about how chips had been implanted into his brain during an appendectomy ... the people close to him just thought he was having "a spell", as he used to refer to it. The 1970s-early '80s were a different time indeed. And I guess since I come from an "unsophisticated" background myself, I just relate to why they may have made the decisions that they did.
First of all, I followed your link and love the music - is it you? Also, the posts on the site - are those you? I plan to purchase once I've recovered from Christmas. I found the posts really interesting and familiar - kind of how I could think back before I had a kid. Now I'm just on auto-pilot.

I can see where 'conventional' might be a point against a conventional psychologist to people who are into subud and est and TM.
Rereading those articles reminded me how much degradation Brian lived with under Landy, though. And I remember reading the 80's RS Landy article when I was a kid and thinking that it was really f'ed up. And reading the 70s one, it's also obviously f'ed up; the reporter thinks it's f'ed up. Why don't the people who see Brian every day think so?
I feel like people are going to great lengths to justify decisions that turned out to be awful, and I'm not sure why exactly.

On a personal note, your experiences with your dad are similar to my dad's experiences with his mom. I don't know what the outcome was with your dad. They have some pretty good medications now for schizophrenia.
My grandfather wouldn't let my grandmother get treatment. He managed it himself and various family members would help sometimes. But my dad's childhood was a disaster as a result. Once my grandfather died, my dad and his siblings spent a lot of time and effort, in the 1960s when they were kids themselves (one in high school, one college, one just out of college in the Navy) to find her good care. They moved her around once or twice, but eventually found a place that worked, got her off morphine, and worked with her well enough that she ended up living as an outpatient, with occasional stays.

Perhaps, growing up with this history has caused me to take my understanding of the process of identifying and finding treatment for mental health issues for granted, but it also gives me frustration when people say that "back then" no one knew what they were doing, they didn't have options, etc.

So, again I'm being judgmental, but it really frustrates me when something can be done and is being done but the wrong thing is being done. But a better thing could be done if people would just take the step that's right in front of them.

'Unsophisticated' comes off as snobby, I guess. But how do you describe it if someone just doesn't think of asking experts in the field, when that someone has the money and clout to do so? People are saying they were young, inexperienced, didn't know what they were dealing with, impressed by Landy's spiel, etc. which all fits the definition of unsophisticated pretty well.  Unworldly? I don't know. Naïve is maybe best?


Hi Emily,

Thanks and yes that's my music and posts!

Well yes I don't think there's too terribly much to disagree with.

I think some posters in the thread may be going to great length to justify decisions, but I'm more of the "it's hard to say without being there" camp. After all, we just have media, interviews, etc. to go on. And we know there are things that are not discussed publicly.

The vibe I got from the '70s articles was something along the lines of "this guy's crazy enough to actually get through to Brian Wilson!". Whereas by the '80s, it was, "something is fishy about this relationship".

I don't think it was clear that Landy was a creep until his name began appearing on album credits. And we really don't know what might have happened if Landy hadn't treated BW the second time. Though he probably should have been fired by '85 or so.

Let's also not forgot (particularly with regard to Dennis), that no matter how much you care for someone, everyone has their limits of how much they can handle.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: DonnyL on December 20, 2015, 11:18:01 PM
Everyone, I promise I will not make one more post in this thread questioning or casting doubt on anyone's motives or wisdom in their choice of care for Brian Wilson, which even though the treatments and results were obviously awful, must still have been the best decisions, if you will all stop claiming that in the 1970s there was no good treatment available (I agree that they didn't have the psychiatric medications that are available today, some of which are remarkably effective). And if you don't start claiming that battery is an acceptable way to address mental illness and addiction.
Deal?

I don't doubt there were reasonable conventional treatments available in the '70s, but I think the biggest difference was the average person's perception and understanding of mental illness. And folks who were involved in the various counterculture movements might have had views that seem naive these days. And some of them (like my mom) were just young and naive, and didn't really understand what was really going on until it got too bad to bear.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 20, 2015, 11:55:05 PM

Hi Emily,

Thanks and yes that's my music and posts!

Well yes I don't think there's too terribly much to disagree with.

I think some posters in the thread may be going to great length to justify decisions, but I'm more of the "it's hard to say without being there" camp. After all, we just have media, interviews, etc. to go on. And we know there are things that are not discussed publicly.

The vibe I got from the '70s articles was something along the lines of "this guy's crazy enough to actually get through to Brian Wilson!". Whereas by the '80s, it was, "something is fishy about this relationship".

I don't think it was clear that Landy was a creep until his name began appearing on album credits. And we really don't know what might have happened if Landy hadn't treated BW the second time. Though he probably should have been fired by '85 or so.

Let's also not forgot (particularly with regard to Dennis), that no matter how much you care for someone, everyone has their limits of how much they can handle.

I think I'll go with the word 'naïve.'

It's interesting about the vibe you got from the '70s articles.
 The scene where Brian tries to leave the interview (RS) and the Landy handler forces him to come back; and the part about him being humiliated in front of the SNL crew; Landy talking to a reporter about his patient; just the thought of talking to a reporter about his patient; the handler saying "If he sings good, I'll give him the patty" within the hearing of a reporter, and family members, and Brian; Landy bringing himself, his girlfriend, and another doctor of Brian's along on an interview, uninvited; then Landy calls the reporter back to LA to trot Brian out to show the reporter his improvement - as if the subject of the article is Landy and Brian is the case study he's showing the reporter; and handler "Scott" saying to the reporter that Brian "took his own shower", then Landy suggesting they go "watch Brian work out in the gym" then go listen to some songs he wrote, like he's a show pony; this - "During lunch Brian committed an infraction, nothing big really, but it resulted in Landy yelling at Brian and Brian cringing back, his eyes smarting.";

At one point the RS reporter says: "But aren't drugs just a symptom? There must be something else. Carl said that at some point you looked at the world and it was so messed up that you just couldn't take it." Then he talks to Audree about depression and leads Audree through a series of questions that lays out that Brian has underlying problems that aren't being addressed by jogging and not doing cocaine. After the yelling incident, he asks BW if he's embarrassed and writes, "I felt brought down myself, and it occurred to me that Landy might be as concerned with his own image as he is with Brian's." Then "Scott asked, "So, what did you think of Brian today? Did he seem any different?" I couldn't answer him, I couldn't continue this game of dissecting Brian, mulling over Brian, in his presence, as if he wasn't there."
The reporter is diagnosing BW better than Landy. Because it's obvious.

For me, red flags all over the place. And in the Oui article. Still haven't found the New West one, but if I recall correctly, it's worse.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 20, 2015, 11:58:30 PM
Everyone, I promise I will not make one more post in this thread questioning or casting doubt on anyone's motives or wisdom in their choice of care for Brian Wilson, which even though the treatments and results were obviously awful, must still have been the best decisions, if you will all stop claiming that in the 1970s there was no good treatment available (I agree that they didn't have the psychiatric medications that are available today, some of which are remarkably effective). And if you don't start claiming that battery is an acceptable way to address mental illness and addiction.
Deal?

I don't doubt there were reasonable conventional treatments available in the '70s, but I think the biggest difference was the average person's perception and understanding of mental illness. And folks who were involved in the various counterculture movements might have had views that seem naive these days. And some of them (like my mom) were just young and naive, and didn't really understand what was really going on until it got too bad to bear.
I'm getting this. And I think it's fair enough to say that they didn't know what options were available.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 21, 2015, 06:58:08 AM
Everyone, I promise I will not make one more post in this thread questioning or casting doubt on anyone's motives or wisdom in their choice of care for Brian Wilson, which even though the treatments and results were obviously awful, must still have been the best decisions, if you will all stop claiming that in the 1970s there was no good treatment available (I agree that they didn't have the psychiatric medications that are available today, some of which are remarkably effective). And if you don't start claiming that battery is an acceptable way to address mental illness and addiction.
Deal?
I don't doubt there were reasonable conventional treatments available in the '70s, but I think the biggest difference was the average person's perception and understanding of mental illness. And folks who were involved in the various counterculture movements might have had views that seem naive these days. And some of them (like my mom) were just young and naive, and didn't really understand what was really going on until it got too bad to bear.
I'm getting this. And I think it's fair enough to say that they didn't know what options were available.
Emily - This is an emerging area of more exact medicine.  About the best drug prevention they had was "just say no to drugs" publicity campaign for about 20 years, which integrated law enforcement coming into the schools for drug prevention.  The war on drugs now is on between the state legislators and the medical industry, and who have parents/family members of addicts begging for some assistance in treatment, and the legislators who are now telling doctors they can only dispense several days of opiates instead of giving months with refills. 

There is huge pushback from both docs and big pharma.  The doctors are freaking out. Big pharma is freaking out.  They are compensated for writing prescriptions for opiates. 

And, I have seen the in-patient addiction profiles written up as "poly-addiction" to opiates, stimulants, (etc.) with "underlying behavioral illness," and the diagnosis is named.  So the diagnosis could be not just a heroin addiction but heroin-cocaine, addiction diagnosis.  The behavioral illness component is one that has been treated but, not the "combination" of addiction and behavioral illness.  Their definition of Addiction, is "a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry." And the neuroscience and brain scanning, and neurobiology and neurochemistry, and genetic factor integration, is very new to their diagnosis and is helping to de-stigmatize the disease. 

Earlier standards from the 1980's were very vague, and referrals were to "allopathic or osteopathic" physicians. (The ASAM statement)  Now, this epidemic has put pressure on the medical community to do better.  The difference is that back then, you might get someone a bed someplace for 30 days, where they are off the grid and away from their "contacts."  Now, if you are lucky to get a bed, you might get 3-5 days, and be at greater risk for relapse, since behaviors don't change because the drugs have been removed from the body in 3 days.  And there is no tolerance (because of the detox) so the risk of overdose after only 3 days is very high.  And there is virtually no uniform mandatory regulation for after-care such as sober housing. 

There was so much corruption in the dispensing of these opiates in occupational medicine, for work injuries or in dentistry, for wisdom teeth, that there has been no coordinated effort for the medical industry to get their arms around all the respective tentacles, because all these areas of medicine have the power to prescribe powerful and addicting medications.  The 1980 standard "such a physician should be board certified in addiction medicine or addiction psychiatry." "Should be certified" is not the same as "must be certified."

There were no solidly specific departments of addiction medicine.  It was an offshoot of the practice of psychiatry.  Now, it is being integrated into internal medicine and should be in the pediatric departments, as kids are gaining access while they are still being seen by a pediatrician. I've read where pediatricians are now speaking directly to their young patients (sort of screening) to assess whether there is a "behavioral risk" for future addiction. 

This definition of addiction is from the American Society of Addiction Medicine.  The older, more vague policy statement/standards are linked within the website.  Hope it is helpful.  ;)

http://www.asam.org/for-the-public/definition-of-addiction


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 21, 2015, 08:11:54 AM
Everyone, I promise I will not make one more post in this thread questioning or casting doubt on anyone's motives or wisdom in their choice of care for Brian Wilson, which even though the treatments and results were obviously awful, must still have been the best decisions, if you will all stop claiming that in the 1970s there was no good treatment available (I agree that they didn't have the psychiatric medications that are available today, some of which are remarkably effective). And if you don't start claiming that battery is an acceptable way to address mental illness and addiction.
Deal?

I didn't mean violence or Landy's transgressions were preferable or acceptable, and I'm no expert, I just think sometimes we over estimate how good even the best available treatment would have been.  Preferable to the worst available, violence and charlatanism and malpractice.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 21, 2015, 09:42:35 AM
Everyone, I promise I will not make one more post in this thread questioning or casting doubt on anyone's motives or wisdom in their choice of care for Brian Wilson, which even though the treatments and results were obviously awful, must still have been the best decisions, if you will all stop claiming that in the 1970s there was no good treatment available (I agree that they didn't have the psychiatric medications that are available today, some of which are remarkably effective). And if you don't start claiming that battery is an acceptable way to address mental illness and addiction.
Deal?

I didn't mean violence or Landy's transgressions were preferable or acceptable, and I'm no expert, I just think sometimes we over estimate how good even the best available treatment would have been.  Preferable to the worst available, violence and charlatanism and malpractice.
I had no thought that you meant violence was OK. I just tagged that on because if people start saying that, I will argue to the death about it, so my promise would be abrogated.
Regarding the quality of treatment, I know people who got very good treatment at that time and before. They didn't have great modern pharmaceuticals, but talk and life-management therapies have not altered significantly since then, except for the happiness movement. The idea that psychology was the Wild West in the 1970s isn't so.
Eta: I am not talking about addiction treatment.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 21, 2015, 09:50:19 AM
Everyone, I promise I will not make one more post in this thread questioning or casting doubt on anyone's motives or wisdom in their choice of care for Brian Wilson, which even though the treatments and results were obviously awful, must still have been the best decisions, if you will all stop claiming that in the 1970s there was no good treatment available (I agree that they didn't have the psychiatric medications that are available today, some of which are remarkably effective). And if you don't start claiming that battery is an acceptable way to address mental illness and addiction.
Deal?
Obviously no deal could be made. I ask too much.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 21, 2015, 01:04:59 PM
 :)   To those who truly love Brian... and comprehend the concept of NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... of any kind...any time any place... BY ANYBODY... EVER...PERIOD!                                          I understand people not wanting to acknowledge or accept the Beach Boys being anything less than AMERICAS GREATEST CLEAN CUT BAND. But if you must hate... Google "Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love) I sincerely encourage you to do so. "WIPEOUT" is not only about what happened to Brian ... back in the day. It is about BRIAN STILL BEING ALIVE TODAY!!! When Marilyn walked in on Brian... in bed for years on end... weighing over 300 pounds... offering a dangerous drug to their daughter... She made ONE phone call... She called Stephen Love. Not only because he had WORKED his way up the ranks of the Beach Boys, from roadie to manager, for the last 9 years, after graduating (Magna Cum Laude) with his B.A. from U.S.C. and then earning his Masters Degree in Business, and was now the Manager of the Beach Boys  for the last 6 years (1972-1978) as well as Brian's Personal Manager, but it was because... and I quote  Marilyn said  "STEPHEN IS THE ONLY ONE WE TRUST" Stephen not only resurrected  the Beach Boys faltering career, because of Brian's absence, in his nine year tenure but his Brain Child Masterstroke was his "BRIAN'S BACK" campaign where he took a definitive HARD LINE STANCE AGAINST DRUGS...  that ultimately SAVED BRIAN'S LIFE!!! Elvis was 300 pounds and did not have a PROTECTIVE COUSIN around him to draw a hard line and enforce a NO DRUGS ULTIMATUM... Elvis died a year later at 42 years of age... BRIAN IS STILL ALIVE TODAY at 73 years of age! Does that count for anything? The gates were open... the snowball was rolling down the mountain (pick your metaphor) All hell's breaking loose! Once again, please Google, "Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love) "WIPEOUT" will reveal the REAL STORY!!!   :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Yorick on December 21, 2015, 01:14:27 PM
Thanks for joining this board and taking the time to answer questions from fans and give some insights into your experience dealing with the Beach Boys!
It's very interesting to see that Steve Love has been posting a lot of replies lately on that Man vs Clown Why I Hate Mike Love blog.
This also caught my eye:
"Ambha Love on February 11, 2013 said:

Oh another fun fact Steve love also put a life ensurance on Brian with high hopes of him passing soon so he would get some money off of his death. He also tried to con my grandfather into getting life insurance on brian as well and he referred to it as an “investment”. I think that’s a little messed up in my humble opinion as well. Bet no one knew that.
"


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 21, 2015, 01:44:42 PM
Rocky,

Did or do you hate Mike Love?

Thanks.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: tony p on December 21, 2015, 03:39:31 PM
Please Google "Man vs Clown"       (Why I hate Mike Love)

i just googled the above

Steve Love has some really interesting things to say about his brother.

No love there at all between siblings. As Steve Love says:

Mike is a huge disappointment as a person. I used to look up to him but now he creeps me out. What a spiritual phony that poseur is. Somehow he missed the Right Action lesson that is a tenet of all eastern religions. Half the time that Mike devotes to meditation is, I surmise, devoted to scheming and plotting how to f–k people over.





Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 21, 2015, 04:01:15 PM
 :)    Just a word to the board... I personally do not hate anyone... nor have I ever... there are too many HATERS in the world as it is! Life is too short... and way too good... to be consumed with poison! I leave that to the common  man! Also ONE should never impose their opinion as someone elses ... in particular... stating someones... HIGH HOPES... that couldn't be further from the TRUTH... or more WRONG! Such a cowardly fool should be brought up on charges for FALSE accusations!!! This cowardly fool and the common man should get together for a real SLEAZE FEST... to determine who is the biggest HATER...or biggest LOSER... TAKE YOUR PICK!!!   :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Peter Reum on December 21, 2015, 04:11:26 PM
There are a few things to pass along. I am a retired substance abuse counselor and my practice was people who were BOTH mentally ill and chemically and/or behaviorally dependent. My work history also contains  a long period  of service in behavioral therapy dealing with people with mental illness and developmental disability.

First, I appreciate the courage it took for Mr. Pamplin to post here. From hearing about Stan Love and Mr. Pamplin's time in the
family circus that was The Beach Boys, I feel that hiring these men  was setting them up for failure. They had no training in dealing with MH/AD patients, and asking them to prevent Brian, Carl, or Dennis from accessing mood altering chemicals or mood altering activities was either a  naive or family secret protection decision.

Second, the Wilson family never had known what a life without chemical or behavioral dependence. This sad reality made it easy for behavioral dependence to take hold early. Brian' s was music, Dennis's was anti-social behavioral  and sexual, and Carl's was overeating. Add in the parental alcohol and ACOA behavior, and it was as if the whole family had some sort of curse. This dependence and abusive environment  led Brian into compulsive questing for musical perfection, Dennis's anti-social and sexual behavior, and Carl's overeating.

Third, there comes a time when the chemically or behaviorally dependent person's true personality is eclipsed by the addictive behavioral false personality, and the chemical or behaviorally dependent addiction no longer relieves the addict's anxiety, depression, or other form of mental illness.

Fourth, it is the  family's desire not to be seen  as an addictive family, because such a label leads to being treated as pitiable, insane, or otherwise not "normal." We Americans hate the stigma of being  "not normal" more than almost any other label.

Fifth, due to the progressive nature of whatever form of chemical or behavioral  dependence an individual may have,  coping  behavior eventually becomes aversive to the individual who used the behavior to escape their particular form of mental illness
This statement is true of roughly 80% of dually diagnosed patients. So, while music was a way of diverting the horrible  form of mental illness that Brian had in high school and post adolescence, it stopped blocking the aversive symptoms of the type of mental illnesses that Brian had.  This began in 1967, and got progressively worse every year thereafter.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on December 21, 2015, 04:46:39 PM
There are a few things to pass along. I am a retired substance abuse counselor and my practice was people who were BOTH mentally ill and chemically and/or behaviorally dependent. My work history also contains  a long period  of service in behavioral therapy dealing with people with mental illness and developmental disability.

First, I appreciate the courage it took for Mr. Pamplin to post here. From hearing about Stan Love and Mr. Pamplin's time in the
family circus that was The Beach Boys, I feel that hiring these men  was setting them up for failure. They had no training in dealing with MH/AD patients, and asking them to prevent Brian, Carl, or Dennis from accessing mood altering chemicals or mood altering activities was either a  naive or family secret protection decision.

Second, the Wilson family never had known what a life without chemical or behavioral dependence. This sad reality made it easy for behavioral dependence to take hold early. Brian' s was music, Dennis's was anti-social behavioral  and sexual, and Carl's was overeating. Add in the parental alcohol and ACOA behavior, and it was as if the whole family had some sort of curse. This dependence and abusive environment  led Brian into compulsive questing for musical perfection, Dennis's anti-social and sexual behavior, and Carl's overeating.

Third, there comes a time when the chemically or behaviorally dependent person's true personality is eclipsed by the addictive behavioral false personality, and the chemical or behaviorally dependent addiction no longer relieves the addict's anxiety, depression, or other form of mental illness.

Fourth, it is the  family's desire not to be seen  as an addictive family, because such a label leads to being treated as pitiable, insane, or otherwise not "normal." We Americans hate the stigma of being  "not normal" more than almost any other label.

Fifth, due to the progressive nature of whatever form of chemical or behavioral  dependence an individual may have,  coping  behavior eventually becomes aversive to the individual who used the behavior to escape their particular form of mental illness
This statement is true of roughly 80% of dually diagnosed patients. So, while music was a way of diverting the horrible  form of mental illness that Brian had in high school and post adolescence, it stopped blocking the aversive symptoms of the type of mental illnesses that Brian had.  This began in 1967, and got progressively worse every year thereafter.
Peter - you just uttered the magic words..."dual diagnosis."

Thank you for service to those who are truly struggling each day.

Substance abuse counselor - that is God's work. 

Hope things improve with neuroscience and brain scanning...thank you again. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: JakeH on December 21, 2015, 05:28:20 PM
[...]
Fifth, due to the progressive nature of whatever form of chemical or behavioral  dependence an individual may have,  coping  behavior eventually becomes aversive to the individual who used the behavior to escape their particular form of mental illness
This statement is true of roughly 80% of dually diagnosed patients. So, while music was a way of diverting the horrible  form of mental illness that Brian had in high school and post adolescence, it stopped blocking the aversive symptoms of the type of mental illnesses that Brian had.  This began in 1967, and got progressively worse every year thereafter.

This is interesting, thank you.  This is the first time I've heard anyone intimate that Brian was "mentally ill" in high school.  I personally (and respectfully, and strongly)  disagree with that, but assuming it is true, it necessarily leads one to wonder if Brian was perhaps "mentally ill" in junior high, or grammar school, or kindergarten.  That is, was he born this way, or were his symptoms brought on by the misfortune of having at least one psychopath as a parent? This is a key question with Brian, and you might assume in the field as a whole.  Brian himself has asked this question in his music.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Don Malcolm on December 21, 2015, 06:00:46 PM
Peter, thanks for the fascinating glimpse into a framework that I suspect has much more application to people's lives that most of us would care to admit.

I wanted to know if you could elaborate on what seems to be a linkage in your discussion between anti-social behavior and heightened desire/need for the pursuit of sexual activity. Are there any pervasive patterns to such a linkage--gender, birth order, particular types of parent abuse or "uneven nurturing"? Curious about how such parameters might apply to the Wilsons...and, given the clear alliance between Rocky and Stan (and, by extension, Steve), to the dynamics within the Love family?

I, too, think that Rocky has shown courage (and a significant amount of patience and restraint, despite any peculiarities of punctuation and grammar) in entering what is all too often a hostile environment here. His book may be off-putting to many but he has a right to tell his story despite any perceived transgressions or shortcomings.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ChicagoAnn on December 21, 2015, 06:23:13 PM
Thanks, Peter, for your always compassionate and insightful response. Your insight is invaluable. When watching the "Dr. Feelgood" show about Brian, I gave a big ol' (silent) fist-pump when I heard your name as one of the heroes in Brian's history. In this post, you are the first person who mentioned the idea that Dennis' may have had sex-addiction--or some kind of pathology surrounding sex. It's not like it didn't mess up his life or anything.

And Rocky, I know I've called you out about how you spoke about Marilyn in the Gaines' book,  but I also commend you for showing up here and giving your side of the story. It seems to be a subject that's contentious as hell. And I have no doubt when it came to when working for Brian and the band, you did what you believed was right and what you were hired to do.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on December 22, 2015, 06:12:19 AM
So, Rocky, while you were on the job, did you ever hear any outstanding work by Brian, the kind of stuff that went beyond what ended up on released albums at the time?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 22, 2015, 12:06:14 PM
 :)    :)I took umbrage yesterday with a couple of people who posted nebulous stuff directed to me... or I should say... at Stephen Love. The reason I found there posts off-putting is because I... had just made a rather detailed post about the LIFESAVING EFFORTS of Stephen, while manager of the Beach Boys as well as Brian's personal manager, and all a couple of knuckleheads had to post were some negative comments! One in particular insinuated that Stephen had  ill motives... towards Brian! The entire thrust of my post yesterday was to MAKE PEOPLE AWARE that Marilyn called Stephen...no one else... before she took DRASTIC action to ensure  her kids safety! Stephen, as I stated, pleaded with Marilyn to give him a CHANCE to SAVE Brian from being COMMITTED to a MENTAL INSTITUION!!! What part of this don't you understand?   :)  :)  :)          


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 22, 2015, 12:16:34 PM
 :)     In regards to "WIPEOUT" I would like to point out that were it not for the actions of Stephen Love, former business manager of the Beach Boys and Brian's personal manager, Brian Wilson's music would not have come back to life. The past 36 years of his songs would simply not exist! No artist, yet, has recorded music while being committed... that I know of? Stephen's NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... ULTIMATUM and SEVERELY ENFORCED POLICY... kept Brian from being committed...and made this possible! :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 22, 2015, 12:30:02 PM
   :)   WIPEOUT" is your chance to find out how the  Beach Boys really rose to long-term prominence, and why Brian Wilson, whose 'Pet Sounds' Beatle Sir Paul McCartney played to his children as a private music education, was able to RECOVER and write more of the songs we continue to enjoy today, including the album "SMILE", Brian's long awaited swan song masterpiece that took 35 tears to complete and almost didn't get made!!!   :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 22, 2015, 12:43:06 PM
I took umbrage yesterday with a couple of people who posted nebulous stuff directed to me... or I should say... at Stephen Love. The reason I found there posts off-putting is because I... had just made a rather detailed post about the LIFESAVING EFFORTS of Stephen, while manager of the Beach Boys as well as Brian's personal manager, and all a couple of knuckleheads had to post were some negative comments! One in particular insinuated that Stephen had  ill motives... towards Brian! The entire thrust of my post yesterday was to make PEOPLE AWARE that Marylin called Stephen...no one else... before she took DRASTIC action to ensure  her kids safety! Stephen, as I stated, pleaded with Marylin to give him a CHANCE to SAVE Brian from being COMMITTED to a MENTAL INSTITUION!!! WHAT PART OF THIS DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND.....
Hi Rocky,
I don't think that I misunderstand your post. I just think that maybe Marilyn's idea may have been a good one. "Mental Institution" is not a term with positive connotations; the term "residential treatment program" is synonymous and has less baggage. Either way, there are many that may have been able to help Mr. Wilson with his addiction as well as his underlying mental health issues. 
A few people have asked about you working on music with Brian Wilson and that experience.
Is that something you'd like to discuss?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: puni puni on December 22, 2015, 12:54:14 PM
No artist, yet, has recorded music while being committed... that I know of?

Daniel Johnston is a famous example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2jU0Rzq9kQ


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 22, 2015, 01:59:52 PM
 :)    Daniel Johnston... well we all know who that is! I do appreciate you finding someone who has recorded music from an Institution... could you share some of his songs with us... the Genre...anything to enlighten us? :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on December 22, 2015, 02:08:59 PM
Hey Rocky - with the benefit of some now 40 years of hindsight, is there anything you personally would have done differently re Brian's care and handling Dennis's behaviour? 

cheers - A


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: J.G. Dev on December 22, 2015, 02:19:31 PM
Daniel Johnston... well we all know who that is! I do appreciate you finding someone who has recorded music from an Institution... could you share some of his songs with us... the Genre...anything to enlighten us?

That would be Daniel Historical Johnston


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 22, 2015, 03:17:46 PM
 :)   With the benefit of hindsight... would I do anything different? What a question... Is there  anyone on the PLANET that can honestly say... NO I WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT...  ::) One thing I would not do different... would be ... WHEN BRIAN CALLED ME UP SIX MONTHS, to the day ironically, AFTER I NO LONGER WORKED FOR HIM... AND SAID "HEY BIG DADDY" WHAT'S HAPPENING.... and I said who is this... to which he said... "BIG DADDY" WHAT'S GOING ON...   ...   ... (after a moment) I said... Brian?... he said yeah... what are ya doing... I said... I didn't think you were talking to me... he said... I'm calling you aren't I... why don't you come over I'm partying...(after reeling from disbelieve) I said ... are you on Greentree? he said yeah get your butt over here I got a cold one for ya...to which I replied... is that a cold shoulder... or a cold  beer... Brian let out one of his famous belly laughs... that only he could do... I had no doubt it was him then... as AMAZED as I was... and as excited as I was... I said I gotta take a shower... he shot back... I gotta jacuzzi... I said give me five... he said don't give me no jive... I said if I'm lying I'm dying... he hung up!!! I immediately called Stan, at his house in Laguna, and told him... to which he said... you'r fucking kidding me? I said... I SWEAR TO GOD... get your ass up here... I'll see ya at Brian's... Stan say's... he doesn't call me... I'll see ya in an hour!!! I was at Brian's pad in a flash...THAT'S ONE THING I WOULD'NT DO DIFFERENTLY... When I got there  he was outside in the driveway waiting for me with a cold one in one hand, he was drinking, and a cold one in the other hand for me... COORS... ONLY BRIAN!!! I spent the entire day there with Brian... Stan showed up in an hour... and we had a BLAST... playing piano and singing songs together... and laughing our asses off... Carolyn, the live in nurse, barbecued burgers out back by the jacussi for us... and ASIDE FROM THE BEER DRINKING (which I only did with Brian that one time... because it JUST DID NOT FEEL RIGHT) it was as if we had just seen each other yesterday! To know more you'll just have to read 'WIPEOUT" when it comes out... but I can tell you this... you wont believe what happened next week end when ... Brian showed up in my driveway in his powder blue caddy... :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: southbay on December 22, 2015, 04:53:15 PM
So...that's a no?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on December 22, 2015, 05:40:12 PM
So ya went out drinkin' with the guy who wasn't supposed to have any drink or drugs?  So all of that previous testosterone overflow was just an 'exercise' for Marilyn?  It didn't really matter 'cause you felt it OK to do the exact same thing yourself?  Groovy.  You're the best Rockles.

Will this book come in rolls? ::)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Uncle Jesse on December 22, 2015, 07:13:10 PM
With the benefit of hindsight... would I do anything different? What a question... Is there  anyone on the PLANET that can honestly say... NO I WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT...  ::) One thing I would not do different... would be ... WHEN BRIAN CALLED ME UP SIX MONTHS, to the day ironically, AFTER I NO LONGER WORKED FOR HIM... AND SAID "HEY BIG DADDY" WHAT'S HAPPENING.... and I said who is this... to which he said... "BIG DADDY" WHAT'S GOING ON...   ...   ... (after a moment) I said... Brian?... he said yeah... what are ya doing... I said... I didn't think you were talking to me... he said... I'm calling you aren't I... why don't you come over I'm partying...(after reeling from disbelieve) I said ... are you on greentree? he said yeah get your butt over here I got a cold one for ya...to which I replied... is that a cold shoulder... or a cold  beer... Brian let out one of his famous belly laughs... that only he could do... I had no doubt it was him then... as AMAZED as I was... and as excited as I was... I said I gotta take a shower... he shot back... I gotta jacuzzi... I said give me five... he said don't give me no jive... I said if I'm lying I'm dying... he hung up!!! I immediately called Stan, at his house in Laguna, and told him... to which he said... you'r fucking kidding me? I said... I SWEAR TO GOD... get your ass up here... I'll see ya at Brian's... Stan say's... he doesn't call me... I'll see ya in an hour!!! I was at Brian's pad in a flash...THAT'S ONE THING I WOULD'NT DO DIFFERENTLY... When I got there  he was outside in the driveway waiting for me with a cold one in one hand, he was drinking, and a cold one in the other hand for me... COORS... ONLY BRIAN!!! I spent the entire day there with Brian... Stan showed up in an hour... and we had a BLAST... playing piano and singing songs together... and laughing our asses off... Carolyn, the live in nurse, barbecued burgers out back by the jacussi for us... and aside from the beer drinking... it was as if we had just seen each other yesterday! To know more you'll just have to read 'WIPEOUT" when it comes out... but I can tell you this... you wont believe what happened next week when end ... when he showed up in my driveway in his powder blue caddy...

"You won't believe what happened next..."

Is this all just advertisement for your book? Well I don't care what happens next, nor do I care about your book.

What I do care to know is if you could go back in time, Rocky, would you try to save Dennis just like you apparently saved Brian?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Rocky Raccoon on December 23, 2015, 06:52:02 AM
I hope Rocky Pamplin's book is written with random capitalizations and elipsis after every sentence.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on December 23, 2015, 07:43:53 AM
So, Rocky, while you were on the job, did you ever hear any outstanding work by Brian, the kind of stuff that went beyond what ended up on released albums at the time?

Bump.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: kermit27 on December 23, 2015, 08:25:05 AM
Daniel Johnston... well we all know who that is! I do appreciate you finding someone who has recorded music from an Institution... could you share some of his songs with us... the Genre...anything to enlighten us?


Well, that was...aggressively hostile. You asked, he answered.

*I* know who Daniel Johnston is.  Respected singer song writer with mental problems. I have heard many covers of his work.  There was a documentary about him a few years ago.   Just because you don't know him, Rocky, doesn't mean you should be rude about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Johnston


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 23, 2015, 03:52:26 PM
To all...MERRY CHRISTMAS! ... and happy reading... and posting! Just a little footnote ...someone criticized my spelling... and my use of dot dot dot.. :police:. and then they talk about rudeness. >:D I don't know maybe they went to Harvard and graduated top of your class... and just absolutely HAVE to tell others their MISTAKES and CORRECT them...I would rather YOU just digest the material and save your NEGATIVITY  for the TRASH...  that's where it goes faster than you can say...ME...ME...ME! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!  :love


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on December 23, 2015, 03:54:07 PM
Daniel Johnston... well we all know who that is! I do appreciate you finding someone who has recorded music from an Institution... could you share some of his songs with us... the Genre...anything to enlighten us?


Well, that was...aggressively hostile. You asked, he answered.

*I* know who Daniel Johnston is.  Respected singer song writer with mental problems. I have heard many covers of his work.  There was a documentary about him a few years ago.   Just because you don't know him, Rocky, doesn't mean you should be rude about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Johnston

Also a big fan of Brian, as it were.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mikeddonn on December 23, 2015, 03:58:05 PM
To all...MERRY CHRISTMAS! ... and happy reading... and posting! Just a little footnote ...someone criticized my spelling... and my use of dot dot dot.. :police:. and then they talk about rudeness. >:D I don't know maybe they went to Harvard and were top of there class... and just absolutely HAVE to tell others there MISTAKES and CORRECT them...I would rather YOU just digest the material and save your NEGATIVITY  for the TRASH... because that's where it goes faster than you can say...ME...ME...ME! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!  :love

Merry Christmas Rocky!  I enjoy reading your posts, even if I don't agree with everything in them.  They are interesting and to the point.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: puni puni on December 23, 2015, 04:18:28 PM
Daniel Johnston isn't a household name, but he is widely considered a genius in his own right. He's often compared to Brian Wilson because they both have mental illness and an idiosyncratic, self-taught style of songwriting. Daniel got his fame as an 'outsider artist' by recording cassettes of himself singing original songs he wrote on his piano and organ, then acting as his own promoter, sharing his tapes with as many people as he could. Later, he worked with more professional musicians, while others recorded his songs. He has no hits, but some of his songs have since been used in films and commercials.

I think if Daniel can record critically-acclaimed albums while in a mental hospital, with nothing but a cassette recorder and a guitar, then it's hard to imagine Brian couldn't have achieved something similar at that time. Especially after hearing bootlegs from the late 1970s where he is alone singing on piano.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on December 23, 2015, 04:24:45 PM
Daniel Johnston isn't a household name, but he is widely considered a genius in his own right. He's often compared to Brian Wilson because they both have mental illness and an idiosyncratic, self-taught style of songwriting. Daniel got his fame as an 'outsider artist' by recording cassettes of himself singing original songs he wrote on his piano and organ, then acting as his own promoter, sharing his tapes with as many people as he could. Later, he worked with more professional musicians, while others recorded his songs. He has no hits, but some of his songs have since been used in films and commercials.

I think if Daniel can record critically-acclaimed albums while in a mental hospital, with nothing but a cassette recorder and a guitar, then it's hard to imagine Brian couldn't have achieved something similar at that time. Especially after hearing bootlegs from the late 1970s where he is alone singing on piano.


Brian doing an album featuring just him on vocals and piano is a dream album of mine.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: wilsonart1 on December 23, 2015, 04:31:21 PM
......I'm a fan of the dot too!  I could be a muti- $  for all ya" know!  Just like the workin folks!   Don't agree with all you say but!  I knew Dennis and wish I didn't know some things.  Value everyone and how they got on this ride!.......The music remember the music! My wish is we could all get together, will never happen but wouldn't it be nice. Rocky you had your day and time, this may not be your time of day..we're fans!.....


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on December 26, 2015, 01:33:11 AM
Rocky, I will def. be buying your book and all the BB books coming out. Had two questions.

1. Will you consider self-publishing on Amazon? I have a friend that does this and doesn't have to share any profits with a pub company. As you prolly know, self-promotion these days with social media, forums & etc seems pretty efficient.

2. You may have answered this but with your football background couldn't you have tackled Carl or Dennis and just slap them around a bit, why did you go for the full beat down/knockouts? Just curious about your mindset back then.



With the benefit of hindsight... would I do anything different? What a question... Is there  anyone on the PLANET that can honestly say... NO I WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT...  ::) One thing I would not do different... would be ... WHEN BRIAN CALLED ME UP SIX MONTHS, to the day ironically, AFTER I NO LONGER WORKED FOR HIM... AND SAID "HEY BIG DADDY" WHAT'S HAPPENING.... and I said who is this... to which he said... "BIG DADDY" WHAT'S GOING ON...   ...   ... (after a moment) I said... Brian?... he said yeah... what are ya doing... I said... I didn't think you were talking to me... he said... I'm calling you aren't I... why don't you come over I'm partying...(after reeling from disbelieve) I said ... are you on greentree? he said yeah get your butt over here I got a cold one for ya...to which I replied... is that a cold shoulder... or a cold  beer... Brian let out one of his famous belly laughs... that only he could do... I had no doubt it was him then... as AMAZED as I was... and as excited as I was... I said I gotta take a shower... he shot back... I gotta jacuzzi... I said give me five... he said don't give me no jive... I said if I'm lying I'm dying... he hung up!!! I immediately called Stan, at his house in Laguna, and told him... to which he said... you'r fucking kidding me? I said... I SWEAR TO GOD... get your ass up here... I'll see ya at Brian's... Stan say's... he doesn't call me... I'll see ya in an hour!!! I was at Brian's pad in a flash...THAT'S ONE THING I WOULD'NT DO DIFFERENTLY... When I got there  he was outside in the driveway waiting for me with a cold one in one hand, he was drinking, and a cold one in the other hand for me... COORS... ONLY BRIAN!!! I spent the entire day there with Brian... Stan showed up in an hour... and we had a BLAST... playing piano and singing songs together... and laughing our asses off... Carolyn, the live in nurse, barbecued burgers out back by the jacussi for us... and aside from the beer drinking... it was as if we had just seen each other yesterday! To know more you'll just have to read 'WIPEOUT" when it comes out... but I can tell you this... you wont believe what happened next week when end ... when he showed up in my driveway in his powder blue caddy...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Zesterz on December 26, 2015, 03:07:00 AM
@ Fear2stop.........I agree, 100%.  -----  solo, Brian at piano plus his vocals. Or, for reasons of selling........make an album, say, eight songs that way....followed by the same eight fully realised with the band.  It would show us the ssence of Brian, plus the developed songs, arrangements and sound.  Gets to the heart of BW.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on December 26, 2015, 09:06:44 AM
Do we know that this person posting is actually Rocky Pamplin? I've read as many of his posts as I could before I got a headache , but I just don't know.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on December 26, 2015, 09:25:05 AM
Do we know that this person posting is actually Rocky Pamplin? I've read as many of his posts as I could before I got a headache , but I just don't know.

I was told by someone I trust implicitly that it is him.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: adamghost on December 26, 2015, 11:32:43 AM
Yikes!

Just as an aside, I wanted to put a thought out there that I don't think people have touched on enough.  The height of the 1970s music industry in Los Angeles would have been about the most toxic, drug-addled, morally backwards up-is-down world one could concoct.  Even the most rational, well-intentioned, reasonable person plopped down in that environment and forced to deal with it would be affected and warped and make some bad choices.  Aside from the (very real, and well-discussed) issue of how mental illness was dealt with and what the optons were at that time, you can't forget that the world the Beach Boys functioned in, quite apart from whatever issues the members themselves had, was deeply messed up and that messed up reality was the norm at that time.  It's hard for me at least to envision anything like a best case scenario emerging at that time with the pressures of that culture.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 26, 2015, 12:16:38 PM
.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: JK on December 27, 2015, 03:35:02 AM
someone criticized my spelling... and my use of dot dot dot..

I'm sure your editor will do what is necessary in that department, while no doubt keeping to your writing style.

My only problem is with one name. It's MARILYN. I before Y.

Keep on posting, Rocky----it's a most interesting read!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on December 28, 2015, 06:56:48 AM
I think because of social media I've started to care less & less about spelling and grammar. It's kind of like listening to old school punk music, it cleanses your need of the singer being in tune all the time. :-)

someone criticized my spelling... and my use of dot dot dot..

I'm sure your editor will do what is necessary in that department, while no doubt keeping to your writing style.

My only problem is with one name. It's MARILYN. I before Y.

Keep on posting, Rocky----it's a most interesting read!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 28, 2015, 10:18:07 AM
 :) :)I hope all the Smile readers had a HAPPY JOLLY CHRISTMAS! I sure did...God is great. But I am curious about a gentleman who suggested Smile readers chant STEVE LOVE   STEVE LOVE   STEVE LOVE! I'm curious as to what you have accomplished  in life... did you graduate from college... any college... let alone U.S.C.? If so did you graduate Magna Cum Laude ? Did you ever manage a group like the Beach Boys?... or were you ever a personal manager of someone like Brian Wilson? Have you ever been the one that someone like Brian's wife called and were given the chance to save someones life...like Brian Wilson...or are you just someone who makes FALSE accusations? Like saying that Stephen is a dishonored guest! I can share with all of you that Stephen Love has been fully EXONERATED of the so-called embezzlement charge PURSUANT to SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE NANCY BROWN'S ORDER (Los Angeles Municipal Court Case No. A961401) dated February 22, 1996. Stephen also received a full EXPUNGEMENT!!!   But occasionally there is a DIMWIT that is completely uninformed as to the legal facts of this old controversy and voices an opinion... that is completely opposite of the TRUTH! For people who have been VINDICATED of any and all wrongdoing... two of their favorite words in the English language are EXONERATION and EXPUNGEMENT!!! For people who bear false witness against their neighbor, or a FAMILY MEMBER, there should be a special place... Oh, that's right... there is... it's called HELL.  :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SenorPotatoHead on December 28, 2015, 11:12:32 AM
I'm by no means a member of the "Grammar police" :police:  I make mistakes/errors in that dept often enough myself.  I don't mind being corrected though, so long as the corrector isn't a snotty jerk about it and I encourage others to receive such corrections with humility as well (that's humility, not humiliation) because it is important.  The world is "dumbed down" enough as it is (particularly, it seems, the USA), and I say it'd be a shame to let it go completely. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: JK on December 28, 2015, 11:31:06 AM
I'm by no means a member of the "Grammar police" :police:  I make mistakes/errors in that dept often enough myself.  I don't mind being corrected though, so long as the corrector isn't a snotty jerk about it and I encourage others to receive such corrections with humility as well (that's humility, not humiliation) because it is important.  The world is "dumbed down" enough as it is (particularly, it seems, the USA), and I say it'd be a shame to let it go completely.

+1


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 28, 2015, 12:40:08 PM
I hope all the Smile readers had a HAPPY JOLLY CHRISTMAS! For the gentleman who suggested Smile readers chant STEVE LOVE   STEVE LOVE   STEVE LOVE! I'm curious as to what you have accomplished  in life... did you graduate from college... any college... let alone U.S.C.? If so did you graduate Magna Cum Laude ? Did you ever manage a group like the Beach Boys?... or were you ever a personal manager of someone like Brian Wilson? Have you ever been the one that someone like Brian's wife called and were given the chance to save someone like Brian' life... or are you just someone who makes FALSE accusations?   I can share with all of you that Stephen Love has been fully EXONERATED of the so-called embezzlement charge PURSUANT to SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE NANCY BROWN'S ORDER (Los Angeles Municipal Court Case No. A961401) dated February 22, 1996. Stephen also received a full EXPUNGEMENT!!!   But occasionally there is a DIMWIT that is completely uninformed as to the legal facts of this old controversy and voices an opinion... that is completely opposite of the TRUTH! For people who have been VINDICATED of any and all wrong doing... two of their favorite words are EXONERATION and EXPUNGEMENT!!! For people who bear false witness against there neighbor... or a family member... there should be a special place... oh that's right... there is... it's called... HELL !

An admittedly quick search only gave me the 1988 case where Stephen Love pleaded no contest to embezzlement or such so I presume this is the charge in question. Anywhere we can read the details of the 1996 follow-up, as a search using the case number and judge drew a blank?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 29, 2015, 01:13:02 PM
 :)      To Big Daddy, just getting back to some of the smile readers... THANK YOU for the warm welcome!   :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on December 29, 2015, 02:21:04 PM
      To Big Daddy, just getting back to some of the smile readers... THANK YOU for the welcoming!

Rock, see if you can get Stephen to come aboard. I found his comments on Man v Clown insightful.

Happy New Year.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 29, 2015, 02:51:49 PM
 :):)To John K, I just wanted to say thank you for you'r kind words... "That you feel my posts are a most interesting read and to keep posting" Also I do have an excellent editor for "WIPEOUT" perhaps that is why I don't worry about some of the more trivial stuff? In regards to the spelling of Marilyn... my mothers name was also Marylin... ie: the spelling! Once again thanks ... and keep posting me I can use all the friendly imput ! The more the "merrier" (well it is Christmas time)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 29, 2015, 03:07:11 PM
  :)  :)Dear SteveMC, thank you for your post about not being that concerned about spelling and grammar... I try not to be so anal retentive myself! But it does help to know I have a great editor. I'm not a big fan of punk music...however I loved Sid Vicious and the Sex Pistols!(not sure if there punk... more Grunge I think... there's so many categories these day's) :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 29, 2015, 03:27:04 PM
 :)   Emily, I know you mean well but in regards to Marilyn's initial thought to have Brian committed... being a good one? I don't think so! Isn't it difficult to get out of a Mental Institution once you get in one? I reflect back on "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest"  In regards to music and Brian and myself... Yes there was a connection. Brian knew I loved music and wanted to record me on a song he had written called California Feeling. He said he liked my voice because it was an untrained voice! But the real reason, he confessed to me, was because he didn't want to go into the recording studio with the Beach Boys... said that whole thing gave him bad vibes! Brian also told Stan and I that when his music took off... it was like a TIDAL WAVE... and he didn't want any part of that again. Said that the whole TIDAL WAVE thing brought him nothing but sunburn... pollution...and  tremendous disappointment in all the people around him! :)                


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 29, 2015, 04:00:20 PM
Emily, I know you mean well but in regards to Marilyn's initial thought to have Brian committed... being a good one? I don't think so! Isn't it difficult to get out of a Mental Institution once you get in one? I reflect back on "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest"     
Hi Rocky. I think the difference is between a state mental institution and a private one, and whether a family member is closely involved to make sure the treatment is on the right track. There's certainly a history of throwing people in state institutions and walking away (Frances Farmer is a famous instance, Rosemary Kennedy.. many thousands who were not famous). In many states before the 60's and 70's (when civil rights movements increased rights for mental health patients and would-be mental health patients) a family member could get another committed without even going to court.
But by the 70's the laws had changed and involuntary institutionalization needed a court order and would need to be renewed with new court orders periodically, so at least some oversight was involved.
But if a family member got a court order and placed another family member in a high-quality private care facility, they would work with the doctors to ensure the treatment was appropriate, and could get the patient released if the treatment was inappropriate. It is still the family member, not the institution, who has the legal control.
The patients in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" were people who were dumped into state facilities either by their families who had no interest in continuing to help them, or ordered into the facility by courts due to criminal activity, and who had no family interested in helping them.
The process that Marilyn Rutherford-Wilson or Carl Wilson or whoever went through to give Eugene Landy legal guardianship is the same process they would've followed to get Brian Wilson into a residential treatment program. It involved establishing with a court that BW was a danger to himself or others. Then the court gives someone else the right to make legal decisions for him. They gave that right to Landy. They should (I think) have kept that right to themselves and placed Brian Wilson in a treatment facility that would have weaned him off whatever drugs he was on and simultaneously evaluated his mental health and prescribed whatever the best treatment there was at the time. At some point (3 to 6 months - 6 is better for addicts) he would've been released but continued to work with the center as an outpatient, with follow up appointments both for addiction and mental health. If the guardian (Carl, Marilyn, whoever) thought that the institution was mistreating Brian or felt that he was ready to live independently, they would have the legal power to remove him from that institution.
I understand that there was a big stigma with 'institutionalization,' mainly because there had been so much abuse historically, but a caring family member could take the helm and ensure quality care. From what I've read, Eugene Landy took advantage of this stigma, and the ignorance of the Wilsons, and threatened BW and his family with "throwing him on the funny farm" if he was non-compliant. He should have been educating them on available options and removing stigmas. Obviously, he saw a way to increase his own power and that was his main interest.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 29, 2015, 04:05:32 PM
In regards to music and Brian and myself... Yes there was a connection. Brian knew I loved music and wanted to record me on a song he had written called California Feeling. He said he liked my voice because it was an untrained voice! But the real reason, he confessed to me, was because he didn't want to go into the recording studio with the Beach Boys... said that whole thing gave him bad vibes! Brian also told Stan and I that when his music took off... it was like a TITLE WAVE... and he didn't want any part of that again. Said that the whole TITLE WAVE thing brought him nothing but sunburn and pollution...and  tremendous disappointment!                  
It does seem to me that one thing Brian Wilson needed, and didn't get, was a complete break from the industry and related pressures. I think putting the studio in his house, and moving him to Holland, and putting him on stage, and having him do interviews didn't help. I think he needed to be away from all that for a while. It probably would have done him good to live away from LA altogether (and not because he's supposed to be working on an album in Holland) for a few years.
Did you end up working with him at all in a studio? Or by a piano? Can you give us any descriptions of what it was like working with him musically?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on December 29, 2015, 04:17:02 PM
Emily, I know you mean well but in regards to Marilyn's initial thought to have Brian committed... being a good one? I don't think so! Isn't it difficult to get out of a Mental Institution once you get in one?

No. Most people who spend time on a psychiatric ward do so for a period of weeks or months at most.
One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest was written in the very early 60s, and was not intended as an accurate portrayal of life in a psychiatric ward -- it's a work of fiction about Kesey's beliefs about how society metaphorically castrates those who are different. But even to the extent it was applicable in 1962, it wasn't by the time we are talking about. There was a *huge* revolution in psychiatric treatment between then and the early 70s -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalization . The chances are that had Brian been involuntarily committed, even when he was at his worst, he would have spent maybe a month confined to a hospital while he was getting the drugs out of his system and cleaning up, then another few months being allowed out for increasingly extended periods, while being monitored to ensure he was taking his medication and not falling back into drug use.
Some people do, of course, still become institutionalised, but those people are usually ones who have no outside support and no-one to advocate for them. Brian was a rich man with rich, powerful, friends and family. He would have spent very little time in hospital, and nobody would have had to punch anyone.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 29, 2015, 04:19:37 PM
Emily, I know you mean well but in regards to Marilyn's initial thought to have Brian committed... being a good one? I don't think so! Isn't it difficult to get out of a Mental Institution once you get in one?

No. Most people who spend time on a psychiatric ward do so for a period of weeks or months at most.
One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest was written in the very early 60s, and was not intended as an accurate portrayal of life in a psychiatric ward -- it's a work of fiction about Kesey's beliefs about how society metaphorically castrates those who are different. But even to the extent it was applicable in 1962, it wasn't by the time we are talking about. There was a *huge* revolution in psychiatric treatment between then and the early 70s -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalization . The chances are that had Brian been involuntarily committed, even when he was at his worst, he would have spent maybe a month confined to a hospital while he was getting the drugs out of his system and cleaning up, then another few months being allowed out for increasingly extended periods, while being monitored to ensure he was taking his medication and not falling back into drug use.
Some people do, of course, still become institutionalised, but those people are usually ones who have no outside support and no-one to advocate for them. Brian was a rich man with rich, powerful, friends and family. He would have spent very little time in hospital, and nobody would have had to punch anyone.
a much clearer and more concise response. Thank you!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Theydon Bois on December 29, 2015, 04:43:01 PM
But the real reason, he confessed to me, was because he didn't want to go into the recording studio with the Beach Boys... said that whole thing gave him bad vibes!

I would certainly be interested in hearing more about this, if you'd care to expand on it at all.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 29, 2015, 05:14:08 PM
But the real reason, he confessed to me, was because he didn't want to go into the recording studio with the Beach Boys... said that whole thing gave him bad vibes!

I would certainly be interested in hearing more about this, if you'd care to expand on it at all.
Me too.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on December 29, 2015, 07:59:25 PM
      To Big Daddy, just getting back to some of the smile readers... THANK YOU for the welcoming!

Rock, see if you can get Stephen to come aboard. I found his comments on Man v Clown insightful.

Happy New Year.

I think Old Surfer Dude has that gig covered....Hang on!.....You don't think?....Could he be? :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 30, 2015, 09:47:57 AM
  :)    There is a lot of chatter about this whole MENTAL INSTITUTION business ... I'm no expert! But I'm sure glad it didn't happen...  Brian probably is too? Brian is alive and well today... lets focus on the positive!  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 30, 2015, 10:34:35 AM
    Smilin Ed H, in response to your question... did I ever hear any outstanding music by Brian when I worked for him? YES... in particular there was the first song I ever heard him record in the studio at Brother Records, on 5th st. in Santa Monica, It was a thrill for me because I had never been in a recording studio before and Marilyn, Stan and I had finally gotten Brian to write a song! It was a complete departure from anything previously recorded... so not Beach Boyish! It was entitled "Still I Dream of It"... it was a ballad... and Brian laid it down in one take... playing the Piano and singing it at the same time! It was BEAUTYFULL... when Brian finished the ONE take the engineer asked him if he wanted to lay down another track... Brian simply said NO... it's perfect and got up from the Piano! If you would like me to recite some of the lyrics... I think I still remember a few...  Smell the kitchen now... Hear the maid her solitude my thoughts are fleeting now...Still I Dream of It... of that happy day when I can say I'm falling in love... and it haunts me so... like a dream that somehow linked to all the stars above... I'll find my love... I'll find my love... I know I know I know I'll find my love!!! Brian said it wasn't a Beach Boy song... and that he wanted Frank Sinatra to sing it! So it was sent to Sinatra's people... and Frank personally sent Brian a thank you note... but respectfully declining. I think Brian was a little disappointed. Stan and I dubbed him ONE TAKE BRIAN from that moment on!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 30, 2015, 10:49:07 AM
    Smilin Ed H, in response to your question... did I ever hear any outstanding music by Brian when I worked for him? YES... in particular there was the first song I ever heard him record in the studio at Brother Records, on 5th st. in Santa Monica, It was a thrill for me because I had never been in a recording studio before and Marilyn, Stan and I had finally gotten Brian to write a song! It was a complete departure from anything previously recorded... so not Beach Boyish! It was entitled "Still I Dream of It"... it was a ballad... and Brian laid it down in one take... playing the Piano and singing it at the same time! It was BEAUTYFULL... when Brian finished the ONE take the engineer asked him if he wanted to lay down another track... Brian simply said NO... it's perfect and got up from the Piano! If you would like me to recite some of the lyrics... I think I still remember a few...  Smell the kitchen now... Hear the maid her solitude my thoughts are fleeting now...Still I Dream of It... of that happy day when I can say I'm falling in love... and it haunts me so... like a dream that somehow linked to all the stars above... I'll find my love... I'll find my love... I know I know I know I'll find my love!!! Brian said it wasn't a Beach Boy song... and that he wanted Frank Sinatra to sing it! So it was sent to Sinatra's people... and Frank personally sent Brian a thank you note... but respectfully declining. I think Brian was a little disappointed. Stan and I dubbed him ONE TAKE BRIAN from that moment on!
Cool story Rocky. That's an awesome song. You say you, Marilyn and Stan had finally gotten him to write a song. Was he having trouble writing at that time? Was one of your goals/assignments to get him to write? How did you get him to write?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 30, 2015, 12:31:24 PM
 :)   Emily, Yes, getting Brian to write songs again was not only a GOAL of ours ... but we felt it was imperative for Brian's mental rehabilitation. He's a songwriter... that's what he should be doing! Just like an athlete should be working out... running?... lifting weights?...etc! Which is exactly what we were also doing with Brian every mourning. Up early for a healthy diet based breakfast and then off to the Y.M.C.A in Santa Monica, where Brian preferred to go, to play full court basketball (hence: the running). Brian loved to dribble and drive with the ball... to be honest with you. he used to double dribble alot... and even charge into the other players. But none of them minded or called fouls on him...hey... they were playing ball with Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys! After an hour of that... we would  take two ten minute saunas, to lose weight, and then off to the physiatrist, twice a week for an hour session in Beverly Hills, and then we would go to the recording studio...(always Brother Records) because Dennis and Carl owned it and Brian wanted them to have the revenue. In the beginning Brian would just pace around the studio, and studio time is not cheap, smoking cigarettes, (until we slowly rationed him off them) and eventually he got tired of just walking around this environment he grew up in... and one day he just sat down at the Piano and told the engineer... lets roll tape on this! That was the making of " Still I Dream of It "... he wrote it in his head while pacing around. Who knows how long it took him to write it... the first song to come out of Brian in YEARS!!! ONE TAKE BRIAN!!! When we got home with the demo... which Brian always listened to, in the limo, on the ride back... Marilyn was ecstatic ... finally... a Brian Wilson original composition... with him singing it! She played it endlessly for days! LATER I'll tell you about the next song he wrote... "It's Over Now"  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 30, 2015, 01:08:03 PM
  Emily, getting Brian to write songs again was not only a GOAL of ours ... but we felt it was imperative for Brian's mental rehabilitation. He's a songwriter... that's what he should be doing! Just like an athlete should be working out... running?... lifting weights?...etc! Which is exactly what we were also doing with Brian every mourning. Up early for a healthy diet based breakfast and then off to the Y.M.C.A in Santa Monica, where Brian preferred to go, to play full court basketball (hence: the running). Brian loved to dribble and drive with the ball... to be honest with you. he used to double dribble alot... and even charge into the other players. But none of them minded or called fouls on him...hey... they were playing ball with Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys! After an hour of that... we would  take two ten minute saunas, to lose weight, and then off to the physiatrist, tiwice a week for an hour session in Beverly Hills, and then we would go to the recording studio...(always Brother Records) because Dennis and Carl owned it and Brian wanted them to have the revenue. In the beginning Brian would just pace around the studio, and studio time is not cheap, smoking cigarettes, (until we slowly rationed him off them) and eventually he got tired of just walking around this environment he grew up in... and one day he just sat down at the Piano and told the engineer... lets roll tape on this! That was the making of " Still I Dream of It "... he wrote it in his head while pacing around. Who knows how long it took him to write it... the first song to come out of Brian in YEARS!!! ONE TAKE BRIAN!!! When we got home with the demo... which Brian always listened to, in the limo, on the ride back... Marilyn was ecstatic ... finally... a Brian Wilson original composition... with him singing it! She played it endlessly for days! LATER I'll tell you about the next song he wrote... "It's Over Now"
Thanks for that description Rocky. You said before that Brian didn't want to work with the Beach Boys at that time. Were they always away from the studio when you were there? And was that planned?
Also, were you guys with Brian 24/7? And for how long a period were you employed with them? From when to when?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 30, 2015, 01:15:31 PM
Also, Rocky, I'm a little confused: you said Brian Wilson preferred to use Brother Records' studios so they could get the revenue. Where would the revenue come from? Was a label paying for BW's studio time? Was he paying for it?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 30, 2015, 02:15:42 PM
 :)  Mike's Beard,  as I've stated recently I'm taking the opportunity to respond to the friendly readers of Smile and would like to say thank you for your insight into not being judgemental... and moralizing! Yes... it is easy to do... It's like casting stones... it's ok if you have'nt sinned... or don't live in glass houses. I especially want to thank you for your thanking me for KEEPING DRUGS OUT OF BRIAN'S LIFE! But it was really Stephen, Stan and I who made a wholehearted concerted effort in that endeavor. The whole NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE challenge was without a doubt THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of our interaction with Brian... PERIOD!   More important than Brian writing a hit record... or touring again after an extensive lay off... or going to the gym, working out, and losing over 100 pounds... even more significant than going to the Physiatrist! Who made it  perfectly clear to Marilyn,Stephen, Stan and I, in the very beginning, that if Brian was not DRUG and ALCOHOL FREE that no amount of therapy would do Brian any good!!! And I can certainly empathize with your conviction that if a 34 yr old man was attempting to give your daughter drugs...  that you would have kicked his ass... no matter how many beautyfull  songs  he had written!!!  BRAVO!!!    :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 30, 2015, 03:07:23 PM
 :)Cam Mott... I want to commend you on your keenly intuitive... highly insightful comment about DISHING the DIRT when it comes to Mike! I can assure you Cam that I have been patiently leading up to an ENORMOUS amount of DIRT DISHING with regards to the ever lovable Mike Love!!! Just ask Brian how lovable he feels Mike Love is... does the expression " EARFUL " mean anything to you? When I get to the  matter of Mike Love-less the readers who feel the way you do... and a number of others on this blog... there will be dancing in the streets... and unparalleled celebration!!! Have I mentioned the extensive blog, in existence for several years now, with countless posters "Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love) What a title!! What on earth could this person have done to garner this much hatred? Karma can be a BITCH!!   :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jim V. on December 30, 2015, 07:56:36 PM
Cam Mott... I want to commend you on your keenly intuitive... highly insightful comment about DISHING the DIRT when it comes to Mike! I can assure you Cam that I have been patiently leading up to an ENORMOUS amount of DIRT DISHING with regards to the ever lovable Mike Love!!! Just ask Brian how lovable he feels Mike Love is... does the expression " EARFUL " mean anything to you? When I get to the  matter of Mike Love-less the readers who feel the way you do... and a number of others on this blog... there will be dancing in the streets... and unparalleled celebration!!! Have I mentioned the extensive blog, in existence for several years now, with countless posters "Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love) What a title! What on earth could this person have done to garner this much hatred? Karma can be a BITCH!!

Rocky, just so you know, Cam Mott is the biggest Mike Love apologist on this board. So yeah, he probably won't be happy to see that you're going to have "bad things" to say about Mike.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Doo Dah on December 30, 2015, 07:58:34 PM
Rocky, were you present for the big-band sessions from the never released 'Adult Child'? Supposedly included It's Over Now as well as Life is For the Living. That one always got a smile out of me - pure Brian!

Life...is for the living
Don't sit on your ass
Smokin' grass
That went out, a long time ago...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on December 30, 2015, 08:39:31 PM
Cam Mott... I want to commend you on your keenly intuitive... highly insightful comment about DISHING the DIRT when it comes to Mike! I can assure you Cam that I have been patiently leading up to an ENORMOUS amount of DIRT DISHING with regards to the ever lovable Mike Love!!! Just ask Brian how lovable he feels Mike Love is... does the expression " EARFUL " mean anything to you? When I get to the  matter of Mike Love-less the readers who feel the way you do... and a number of others on this blog... there will be dancing in the streets... and unparalleled celebration!!! Have I mentioned the extensive blog, in existence for several years now, with countless posters "Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love) What a title! What on earth could this person have done to garner this much hatred? Karma can be a BITCH!!

Rocky, just so you know, Cam Mott is the biggest Mike Love apologist on this board. So yeah, he probably won't be happy to see that you're going to have "bad things" to say about Mike.
:)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on December 30, 2015, 10:18:27 PM
Also, Rocky, I'm a little confused: you said Brian Wilson preferred to use Brother Records' studios so they could get the revenue. Where would the revenue come from? Was a label paying for BW's studio time? Was he paying for it?

Emily, I can answer this, as I've come across documentation related to countless Beach Boys recording sessions in the course of my research over the past several years: when a band or solo artist, such as the BBs, has a contract with a major label, like Capitol, Warners, or CBS, it is the label that pays for the session, including studio time and any hired musicians: sometimes upfront, sometimes though being billed via invoice, sometimes (as in the early days of the Boys' career) by buying the master from the artist who originally funded the session (at least, it USED to be that way - nowadays, a lot of recording artists own private in-home studios). Now, if the record flops, the label either writes off the loss, or forces the artist to pay the cost back to them from their touring revenue (as was probably the case with many "commercially failed" Beach Boys albums - luckily, the band still turned a profit on the road). Brother Studio was originally owned jointly by the Wilsons, but Brian eventually sold his interest to his brothers. Dennis and Carl then owned it jointly, until Carl decided it had to be sold to offset business losses.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 30, 2015, 11:10:50 PM
Also, Rocky, I'm a little confused: you said Brian Wilson preferred to use Brother Records' studios so they could get the revenue. Where would the revenue come from? Was a label paying for BW's studio time? Was he paying for it?

Emily, I can answer this, as I've come across documentation related to countless Beach Boys recording sessions in the course of my research over the past several years: when a band or solo artist, such as the BBs, has a contract with a major label, like Capitol, Warners, or CBS, it is the label that pays for the session, including studio time and any hired musicians: sometimes upfront, sometimes though being billed via invoice, sometimes (as in the early days of the Boys' career) by buying the master from the artist who originally funded the session (at least, it USED to be that way - nowadays, a lot of recording artists own private in-home studios). Now, if the record flops, the label either writes off the loss, or forces the artist to pay the cost back to them from their touring revenue (as was probably the case with many "commercially failed" Beach Boys albums - luckily, the band still turned a profit on the road). Brother Studio was originally owned jointly by the Wilsons, but Brian eventually sold his interest to his brothers. Dennis and Carl then owned it jointly, until Carl decided it had to be sold to offset business losses.
I don't mean this sarcastically, it's an honest question because it seems so odd to me: are you saying that when Brian Wilson was brought to the studio (daily, it sounds like) to pace around and smoke and maybe one day write a song, the label paid the studio, whether or not anything productive was done, or even planned, for months?
Thanks for answering. It's really bizarre.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: puni puni on December 30, 2015, 11:19:00 PM
That was the making of " Still I Dream of It "... he wrote it in his head while pacing around. Who knows how long it took him to write it... the first song to come out of Brian in YEARS!!!

Thanks for the story, Rocky. FYI the recordings of "Still I Dream of It" and "It's Over Now", including Brian's demo, were released on a compilation set back in the '90s, and they are good songs. But it was written during or after sessions for The Beach Boys Love You, wasn't it? So it couldn't have been 'the first song to come out of Brian in years'.

Is there anything you remember about the follow-up album Adult/Child? Such as how Brian felt about it, and why it was never released?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on December 31, 2015, 03:12:32 AM
Cam Mott... I want to commend you on your keenly intuitive... highly insightful comment about DISHING the DIRT when it comes to Mike! I can assure you Cam that I have been patiently leading up to an ENORMOUS amount of DIRT DISHING with regards to the ever lovable Mike Love!!! Just ask Brian how lovable he feels Mike Love is... does the expression " EARFUL " mean anything to you? When I get to the  matter of Mike Love-less the readers who feel the way you do... and a number of others on this blog... there will be dancing in the streets... and unparalleled celebration!!! Have I mentioned the extensive blog, in existence for several years now, with countless posters "Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love) What a title! What on earth could this person have done to garner this much hatred? Karma can be a BITCH!!

I look forward to hearing whatever you have to tell Rocky and, as I said earlier in this thread, I hope this board allows you to tell it.  Happy New Year.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on December 31, 2015, 04:22:18 AM
    Smilin Ed H, in response to your question... did I ever hear any outstanding music by Brian when I worked for him? YES... in particular there was the first song I ever heard him record in the studio at Brother Records, on 5th st. in Santa Monica, It was a thrill for me because I had never been in a recording studio before and Marilyn, Stan and I had finally gotten Brian to write a song! It was a complete departure from anything previously recorded... so not Beach Boyish! It was entitled "Still I Dream of It"... it was a ballad... and Brian laid it down in one take... playing the Piano and singing it at the same time! It was BEAUTYFULL... when Brian finished the ONE take the engineer asked him if he wanted to lay down another track... Brian simply said NO... it's perfect and got up from the Piano! If you would like me to recite some of the lyrics... I think I still remember a few...  Smell the kitchen now... Hear the maid her solitude my thoughts are fleeting now...Still I Dream of It... of that happy day when I can say I'm falling in love... and it haunts me so... like a dream that somehow linked to all the stars above... I'll find my love... I'll find my love... I know I know I know I'll find my love!!! Brian said it wasn't a Beach Boy song... and that he wanted Frank Sinatra to sing it! So it was sent to Sinatra's people... and Frank personally sent Brian a thank you note... but respectfully declining. I think Brian was a little disappointed. Stan and I dubbed him ONE TAKE BRIAN from that moment on!

Thanks. I'd love to hear more stuff like this from you.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on December 31, 2015, 07:29:20 AM
Also, Rocky, I'm a little confused: you said Brian Wilson preferred to use Brother Records' studios so they could get the revenue. Where would the revenue come from? Was a label paying for BW's studio time? Was he paying for it?

Emily, I can answer this, as I've come across documentation related to countless Beach Boys recording sessions in the course of my research over the past several years: when a band or solo artist, such as the BBs, has a contract with a major label, like Capitol, Warners, or CBS, it is the label that pays for the session, including studio time and any hired musicians: sometimes upfront, sometimes though being billed via invoice, sometimes (as in the early days of the Boys' career) by buying the master from the artist who originally funded the session (at least, it USED to be that way - nowadays, a lot of recording artists own private in-home studios). Now, if the record flops, the label either writes off the loss, or forces the artist to pay the cost back to them from their touring revenue (as was probably the case with many "commercially failed" Beach Boys albums - luckily, the band still turned a profit on the road). Brother Studio was originally owned jointly by the Wilsons, but Brian eventually sold his interest to his brothers. Dennis and Carl then owned it jointly, until Carl decided it had to be sold to offset business losses.
I don't mean this sarcastically, it's an honest question because it seems so odd to me: are you saying that when Brian Wilson was brought to the studio (daily, it sounds like) to pace around and smoke and maybe one day write a song, the label paid the studio, whether or not anything productive was done, or even planned, for months?
Thanks for answering. It's really bizarre.

That would be MY understanding. Unless Dennis and Carl gave him the studio time to use for free, which they very well might have - but as Rocky has pointed out, that time could also have been billed to the record company, simply because it COULD be considered actual studio time! :) Dennis recording there on his own might have been a different story, since he was part-owner. I know the label paid musicians fees for Dennis' sessions - not sure about the studio time, especially if he showed up in the middle of the night to record, as was his inclination oftentimes.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on December 31, 2015, 10:32:57 AM
  :) To the first responders, (so to speak) Sweetdude Jim, Doo Dah, C-man, Puni Puni, Cam Mott, Smilin Ed H, and of course Emily I would very much like to thank all of you for taking the time to come on the board! Your imput is sincerely welcome and  very interesting. Alot of which I was not aware of for I am by no means an expert on the Beach Boys ... or anything else for that matter! I was, however, very fortunate to be given the opportunity to get to know Brian intimately and "try" to make a difference. Some good some not so... but I can honestly say that all our efforts, Marilyn, Stephen, Stan and mine were entirely about trying to save the ever fragile wonderful soul that is Brian... that we all ADMIRE and LOVE!!! Brian's music touched all of our lives deeply... the four of us...the "Brian's Back" team (as I refer to us) were trying our damndest to keep him around!!! And as I've said... Brian is 73 yrs young and still with us for the last 35 years! BRIAN IS STILL ALIVE... maybe Brian should write that song "I'm Still Alive" :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on December 31, 2015, 03:46:28 PM
Rocky, do you have a publisher/publication date locked in yet or still working out the details?

- A


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on December 31, 2015, 03:59:12 PM
Hey Rocky, you've referred a few times to a foursome - you, Stan, Steve and Marilyn. Were the others not really involved? The other Wilsons or Mike Love?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: adamghost on December 31, 2015, 06:36:15 PM
Also, Rocky, I'm a little confused: you said Brian Wilson preferred to use Brother Records' studios so they could get the revenue. Where would the revenue come from? Was a label paying for BW's studio time? Was he paying for it?

Emily, I can answer this, as I've come across documentation related to countless Beach Boys recording sessions in the course of my research over the past several years: when a band or solo artist, such as the BBs, has a contract with a major label, like Capitol, Warners, or CBS, it is the label that pays for the session, including studio time and any hired musicians: sometimes upfront, sometimes though being billed via invoice, sometimes (as in the early days of the Boys' career) by buying the master from the artist who originally funded the session (at least, it USED to be that way - nowadays, a lot of recording artists own private in-home studios). Now, if the record flops, the label either writes off the loss, or forces the artist to pay the cost back to them from their touring revenue (as was probably the case with many "commercially failed" Beach Boys albums - luckily, the band still turned a profit on the road). Brother Studio was originally owned jointly by the Wilsons, but Brian eventually sold his interest to his brothers. Dennis and Carl then owned it jointly, until Carl decided it had to be sold to offset business losses.
I don't mean this sarcastically, it's an honest question because it seems so odd to me: are you saying that when Brian Wilson was brought to the studio (daily, it sounds like) to pace around and smoke and maybe one day write a song, the label paid the studio, whether or not anything productive was done, or even planned, for months?
Thanks for answering. It's really bizarre.

That would be MY understanding. Unless Dennis and Carl gave him the studio time to use for free, which they very well might have - but as Rocky has pointed out, that time could also have been billed to the record company, simply because it COULD be considered actual studio time! :) Dennis recording there on his own might have been a different story, since he was part-owner. I know the label paid musicians fees for Dennis' sessions - not sure about the studio time, especially if he showed up in the middle of the night to record, as was his inclination oftentimes.

This plays back to my earlier post about the up-is-down environment (1970s L.A. music industry) that all the players in this story were navigating at the time.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: puni puni on December 31, 2015, 10:26:44 PM
     To the first responders, (so to speak) Sweetdude Jim, Doo Dah, C-man, Puni Puni, Cam Mott, Smilin Ed H, and of course Emily I would very much like to thank all of you for taking the time to come on the board! Your imput is sincerely welcome... and  very interesting. Alot of which I was not aware of ... for I am by no means an expert on the Beach Boys ...

Hm, does that mean you have no memory of an album called Adult/Child? This link has most of the information known about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult/Child


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 01, 2016, 04:00:36 PM
Rocky, I'm curious about your mindset back then, I guess this will be covered in the book but was wondering why you didn't just maybe with your football background tackle Carl and Dennis and smack them around a bit rather than go for the full beat down. I can imagine Dennis and addicts are difficult/annoying to deal with.

Dear SteveMC, thank you for your post about not being that concerned about spelling and grammar... I try not to be so anal retentive myself! But it does help to know I have a great editor. I'm not a big fan of punk music...however I loved Sid Vicious and the Sex Pistols!(not sure if there punk... more Grunge I think... there's so many categories these day's)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on January 02, 2016, 07:57:53 AM
  Emily, Yes, getting Brian to write songs again was not only a GOAL of ours ... but we felt it was imperative for Brian's mental rehabilitation. He's a songwriter... that's what he should be doing! Just like an athlete should be working out... running?... lifting weights?...etc! Which is exactly what we were also doing with Brian every mourning. Up early for a healthy diet based breakfast and then off to the Y.M.C.A in Santa Monica, where Brian preferred to go, to play full court basketball (hence: the running). Brian loved to dribble and drive with the ball... to be honest with you. he used to double dribble alot... and even charge into the other players. But none of them minded or called fouls on him...hey... they were playing ball with Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys! After an hour of that... we would  take two ten minute saunas, to lose weight, and then off to the physiatrist, twice a week for an hour session in Beverly Hills, and then we would go to the recording studio...(always Brother Records) because Dennis and Carl owned it and Brian wanted them to have the revenue. In the beginning Brian would just pace around the studio, and studio time is not cheap, smoking cigarettes, (until we slowly rationed him off them) and eventually he got tired of just walking around this environment he grew up in... and one day he just sat down at the Piano and told the engineer... lets roll tape on this! That was the making of " Still I Dream of It "... he wrote it in his head while pacing around. Who knows how long it took him to write it... the first song to come out of Brian in YEARS!!! ONE TAKE BRIAN!!! When we got home with the demo... which Brian always listened to, in the limo, on the ride back... Marilyn was ecstatic ... finally... a Brian Wilson original composition... with him singing it! She played it endlessly for days! LATER I'll tell you about the next song he wrote... "It's Over Now"

Hi Rocky, I too want to thank you for providing us with your recollections on this board. Having spent lots of time in Santa Monica many years back, it's interesting to think about Brian visiting the YMCA there (since I used to go to that location too, years later). You're speaking about the location on 6th Street right by the Santa Monica library (a block away from the old Brother Records location), I'm assuming? Did you, Brian, or the band used to hang out anywhere else locally in Santa Monica at the time? Dennis is known for hanging at the Chez Jay bar a few blocks away, but wondering if there were any other places around there (like the movie theaters or mall) that were local hangouts for you and the band?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on January 02, 2016, 10:43:04 PM
I have been reading through this and lots of interesting stuff to say the least! I am always interested in hearing or reading alternate views on Beach Boys history! I will definitely get this book if it comes out! I hope it does! Yes, the 70s are a fascinating period for the Beach Boys! I recall reading Heroes and Villains awhile back and some of this about Rocky I remember. I believe The Real Beach Boy also talked about Rocky from a different perspective.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on January 03, 2016, 12:14:50 PM
https://manvsclown.wordpress.com/2006/07/21/why-i-hate-mike-love/

I read a lot of posts on this blog and it makes me sick. People throwing things around as 'facts' because they hate Mike Love, so they must be true. It is like a bunch of racists finding the kkk.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on January 03, 2016, 05:21:50 PM
Do any of the other Beach Boys have similar multiple sites like "Man vs Clown" or is myKe luHv the only one?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on January 03, 2016, 06:21:00 PM
That whole I hate Mike thing mentioned often along the way here is pretty much a snoozefest...but if you go way down to the last 1/5, or so, of it and read the almost NON-STOP posts from 'Mr. Aloha'...Steve Love...you'll discover...once you get past the endless advertising for the book under scrutiny in this thread...some VERY interesting INSIGHT into the lawsuit involving B. Wilson/M. Love song writing credits and the hogwashiness of it in terms of it being VALID.  I think I could safely suggest that Steve isn't Mike's biggest supporter although he DOES recognize the actual positives contributed beyond the writing credits.

I still don't get the "we/they did it it 'cause we/they loved Brian" B.S.  Because obviously they DIDN'T...as has been proven several times in posts submitted to this VERY thread.  But I guess one has to assist in anything which might improve the perception many have of said 'cheerleader'.  Shallow Steve.  Ankle deep shallow.

I am staying away as so many here seem to be enjoying the discourse but I wanted to point out the one and only interesting tid-bit I saw in that anti Michael 'thingy'.  Obviously Rocklette is promoting our reading it because of all the free advertising contained therein...as if either of those 2 spokespersons really matter when it comes to the BIG picture...what with their being tainted by facts and all.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 04, 2016, 12:39:09 PM
 :)   Well I hope all the Smile readers had a Happy Smiley New Years... and no D.U.I.s! Have you all made New Years Resolutions? My Resolution last year was to no longer be part of the Libation Nation... or the Pot lot! Mission accomplished!!! My resolution for 2016 is Rigorous Honesty! On that note,,, I think this might be a good time to tell about the CADDY CRUISE. Which took place, Saturday again around noon, one week after Brian's phone call shocker. I was tinkering with a tune at the piano when I heard a horn honk... looked outside... and there was Brian in his powder blue caddy idling sideways in my driveway. I walked  outside barefoot and Brian say's... so I'm not the only one who goes around barefoot... I say... no your the only one who gets on a plane, with a complete stranger, going from Chicago to Minnesota in the dead of winter BAREFOOT!!! Jump in he say's...(having never seen Brian drive...I ask) you got a drivers license?... YEP (is his reply) show it to me... (I demand) he does and I jump in... but not before stating... you don't have any beers in the car with you... do you?... NOPE... (he say's convincingly) Good... where are we going? Up the coast... Up the coast is good! ( The radio is playing ) Get you'r motor running... head out on the highway... looking for adventure... and whatever comes our way! On the cruise from the Palisades up to Malibu we chat casually about nothing in particular ... sometimes just riding in silence checking out the surf and the babes... other times we'd talk story... there was some reminiscing... some confessions... and lots of laughs... BUT NO TEARS! It was the MOST RELAXED I had ever seen Brian.... It made me feel HONORED! Brian at the wheel...me riding shotgun...the top down...the wind in our hair...the sun shining... the radio playing oldies... and not a care in the world! It doesn't get any better... it was the highlight of the summer... it meant the world to me! SURF'S UP   :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 06, 2016, 11:48:18 AM
 :)     Bicyclerider...Thank You for your post I found it most amusing along with the many other similar views from other Smile readers. In particular, your statement about, "Mike turning his venom on people will play well here"! I guess it's not so outlandish considering the fact that there is the "Man vs Clown" (Why I hate Mike Love) blog that has been in existence for quite some time and has hundreds of people who have posted on it! Especially when you consider over 95% of the posts are indeed people who for one reason or another... HATE MIKE LOVE! As opposed to the handful of, shall we say, PEACENICKS who say they don"t condone hatred. I wonder if those few people feel the same way about Isis, or Isle, which ever is politically correct! Please continue to post to me on Smile I look forward to it! :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 06, 2016, 12:15:59 PM
I am curious to hear what Steve Love has to say, maybe he could post here too?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 06, 2016, 01:07:58 PM
  :)    Dear Juice Brohnston,  in response to your post on Dec 29 asking me to "see if you can get Stephen to come on board" and that you "found his comments on "Man vs Clown" insightful" First off THANK YOU for wishing me a HAPPY NEW YEAR... and the same to you. I truly believe it will be a happy and prosperous year! I did talk to Stephen about your request to come on Smile... and his reply was... isn't this the guy with the planet of the apes head and the face of Mike Love and the mash-up of a fake name for Bruce Johnson.. who has posted numerous negative posts on this thread? To which I replied ... YES... that's the guy! I do not wish to alienate you... you did wish me a Happy New Year.. but I must say I almost had Stephen talked into coming on Smile... except that He is a very private person... and does not wish to be taken advantage of by people who might take CHEAP SHOTS  at him. I can assure you that Stephen does not have a mean- spirited bone in his body... or he probably would have used the physical skills he possesses, from having earned a Football Scholarship to U.S.C., in 1965, to kick his brother , Mike Loves, ASS for having wrongfully fired him as the Beach Boy Manager for not sending me home, from the Austrailian tour, for punching out Carl because Carl gave, the ever broke, Dennis $100 bucks he bought Heroin with, even though he was supposed to be a devout hardliner AGAINST DRUGS!  All members of the Beach Boy Tour were ISSUED a personal MEMO from Stephen...STATING... that NO ONE was to give or loan money to Dennis while in this foreign Country... for fear that he would get arrested for procuring ILLEGAL DRUGS... and cause an International SCANDAL... forcing the entire TOUR to be CANCELLED. Such were the everpressing concerns and fears of Stephens when it came to booking any tour with Dennis!!! The REAL reason Mike turned on Stephen was because Stephen sent Mike a telegram at an ashram stating "Now is not the time to be STUPID" in your life... you need to get back here to rehearse with the group before we go out on tour! Mike's last report card at Dorsey High School was all D's, one F with one A in P.E. (Mike tried out for the Cross Country Team... but eventually quit (he also watched the Varsity Football Team practice one day... and said THAT wasn't for him) :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 06, 2016, 01:39:40 PM
     I can assure you that Stephen does not have a mean spirited bone in his body... or he probably would have used the physical skills he possesses, for having earned a Football Scholarship to U.S.C., to kick his brother , Mike Love's, ASS for having wrongfully fired him as the Beach Boy Manager for not sending me home, from the Austrailia tour, for punching out Carl because Carl gave, the ever broke, Dennis $100 bucks he bought Heroin with!

OK, so you punched one of your employers for giving another one of your employers, his brother, $100. Stan Love then didn't send you home from the tour, and you say Mike firing him for that was "wrongful"?!
If I punched my boss -- for any reason, let alone for a personal matter between his family which was none of my business -- I'd expect to end up in prison, not to keep my job...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on January 06, 2016, 02:45:56 PM
     I can assure you that Stephen does not have a mean spirited bone in his body... or he probably would have used the physical skills he possesses, for having earned a Football Scholarship to U.S.C., to kick his brother , Mike Love's, ASS for having wrongfully fired him as the Beach Boy Manager for not sending me home, from the Austrailia tour, for punching out Carl because Carl gave, the ever broke, Dennis $100 bucks he bought Heroin with!

OK, so you punched one of your employers for giving another one of your employers, his brother, $100. Stan Love then didn't send you home from the tour, and you say Mike firing him for that was "wrongful"?!
If I punched my boss -- for any reason, let alone for a personal matter between his family which was none of my business -- I'd expect to end up in prison, not to keep my job...

Rocky, so one Beach Boy could take it upon himself to do something fire a manager?  I figured they would have to have a group meeting(s) or vote or something. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on January 06, 2016, 03:18:18 PM
Having Rocky here is endlessly entertaining to me. Never thought that would happen when I started the thread. Best of luck getting your book to print, Rocky. Always interested in hearing things from different perspectives. Hope you let us know any updates on its publication.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Manning on January 06, 2016, 03:19:44 PM
I'm feeling fortunate that I wasn't punched too. Much to be grateful for.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 06, 2016, 03:21:15 PM
    Dear Juice Brohnston,  in response to your post on Dec 29 asking me to "see if you can get Stephen to come on board" and that you "found his comments on "Man vs Clown" insightful" First off THANK YOU for wishing me a HAPPY NEW YEAR... and the same to you. I truly believe it will be a happy and prosperous year! I did talk to Stephen about your request to come on Smile... and his reply was... isn't this the guy with the planet of the apes head and the face of Mike Love and the synonym of a fake name for Bruce Johnson.. who has posted numerous negative posts on this thread? To which I replied ... YES... that's the guy! I do not wish to alienate you... you did wish me a Happy New Year.. but I must say I almost had Stephen talked into cumming on Smile... except that He is a very private person... and does not wish to be taken advantage of by people who might take CHEAP SHOT'S  at him. I can assure you that Stephen does not have a mean spirited bone in his body... or he probably would have used the physical skills he possesses, for having earned a Football Scholarship to U.S.C., to kick his brother , Mike Love's, ASS for having wrongfully fired him as the Beach Boy Manager for not sending me home, from the Austrailia tour, for punching out Carl because Carl gave, the ever broke, Dennis $100 bucks he bought Heroin with! All members of the Beach Boy Tour were ISSUED a personal MEMO from Stephen...STATING... that NO ONE was to give or loan money to Dennis while in this foreign Country... for fear that he would get arrested for procuring ILLEGAL DRUGS... and cause an International SCANDAL... forcing the entire TOUR to be CANCELLED. Such were the everpressing concerns and fears of Stephens when it came to booking any tour with Dennis!!!

A. Cumming? One wonders what you do in your spare time? Watching a little porn Rocky?
B. Stephen is happy posting on Man vs. Clown but our board here is too intense for him?
C. You really seem pretty pleased with your history of physical violence. The last one against Dennis, the pain of which probably made him self-medicate even more to dull the pain you inflicted. And we know what happened there.
D. Do you regret not calling the cops on Dennis instead of seriously assaulting him? I mean, prision saved David Crosby's life,


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 06, 2016, 03:35:00 PM
 :)   Cam Mott,   No... one Beach Boy could not fire Stephen. It was Dennis and Carl who wanted Stephen to send me home from the tour for following Brian's wife Marilyn and Stephens "ORDERS" NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... of any kind... at any time... any where... by anybody... EVER ... PERIOD!!! Even David Frost finally got it... when I stood up, in THE SHOWDOWN MEETING, and said would you like me to call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about one of your employees supplying HEROIN to Dennis... who in turn gave some to Brian!!! Because she will have Stan and I and Brian on a plane back home... before you can say GLORIOUS TOUR one more time! Stephen, Stan and I are not just going to sweep this Heroin incident under the carpet!!! Is there any part of this you don't understand? :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on January 06, 2016, 04:09:06 PM
No, I think I get it.  Enabling a vulnerable addict love one is a violence and a dangerous thing and that needs to be recognized too.  Thanks Rocky for your side of things.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 06, 2016, 04:30:39 PM
     I can assure you that Stephen does not have a mean spirited bone in his body... or he probably would have used the physical skills he possesses, for having earned a Football Scholarship to U.S.C., to kick his brother , Mike Love's, ASS for having wrongfully fired him as the Beach Boy Manager for not sending me home, from the Austrailia tour, for punching out Carl because Carl gave, the ever broke, Dennis $100 bucks he bought Heroin with!

OK, so you punched one of your employers for giving another one of your employers, his brother, $100. Stan Love then didn't send you home from the tour, and you say Mike firing him for that was "wrongful"?!
If I punched my boss -- for any reason, let alone for a personal matter between his family which was none of my business -- I'd expect to end up in prison, not to keep my job...
Er... I think that would be Steve, otherwise sounds about right.  :-\


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 06, 2016, 04:57:19 PM
    Emily,   I was wondering if anyone would catch Andrew Hickeys mistake of confusing Stan, a body guard like myself, with Stephen the Manager of the Beach Boys. There is an enormous difference... and I have mentioned Stephens name dozens of times... not to mention the enormous accomplishments of Stephen! Like being THE guy that convinced Marilyn to let him SAVE BRIAN'S LIFE...how many other people can ADD that to their RESUME? So I want to applaud you, Emily, for your attention to detail ... kudos.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 06, 2016, 05:31:36 PM
Hi Rocky,
What have Stephen, Stan and you gone on to do since the 1970s?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 07, 2016, 02:25:22 AM
     I can assure you that Stephen does not have a mean spirited bone in his body... or he probably would have used the physical skills he possesses, for having earned a Football Scholarship to U.S.C., to kick his brother , Mike Love's, ASS for having wrongfully fired him as the Beach Boy Manager for not sending me home, from the Austrailia tour, for punching out Carl because Carl gave, the ever broke, Dennis $100 bucks he bought Heroin with!

OK, so you punched one of your employers for giving another one of your employers, his brother, $100. Stan Love then didn't send you home from the tour, and you say Mike firing him for that was "wrongful"?!
If I punched my boss -- for any reason, let alone for a personal matter between his family which was none of my business -- I'd expect to end up in prison, not to keep my job...
Er... I think that would be Steve, otherwise sounds about right.  :-\

Indeed. My mistake.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: RiC on January 07, 2016, 04:57:03 AM

A. Cumming? One wonders what you do in your spare time? Watching a little porn Rocky?
B. Stephen is happy posting on Man vs. Clown but our board here is too intense for him?
C. You really seem pretty pleased with your history of physical violence. The last one against Dennis, the pain of which probably made him self-medicate even more to dull the pain you inflicted. And we know what happened there.
D. Do you regret not calling the cops on Dennis instead of seriously assaulting him? I mean, prision saved David Crosby's life.

This bugs me too, to put it bluntly in the most lightly way.
Sorry if this is asked and answered already, I tried to read the last 5 pages or so, but the grammar in many posts is so weird and messed up that it is hard for me to read those writings (yeah, I know, my own grammar sucks too, but I'm a foreigner anyway). So my question is for Rocky. What's your motivation to tell your story? Do you want to straighten things up or just cash in for easy money? For what I've heard and read, there's not much things to straighten up anyways so that leads me to wonder what are the reasons for this book of yours.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 07, 2016, 06:46:30 AM


Indeed. My mistake.
::)    ???   :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 07, 2016, 10:09:46 AM
 :)   RiC,   I usually don't waste my time responding to negative B.S. but ... talk about the pot calling the kettle! In your recent post...You criticized my grammar. Would you look at what YOU wrote in that same post (and I Quote)..." to put it bluntly in the most lightly way " and "there's not much things to straighten up" ???   GIVE ME A BREAK... PAL!!! Are you sure you can read?  :) 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: puni puni on January 07, 2016, 10:18:50 AM
If you have to evade a question like 'What are the reasons that you are writing this book?', then you probably don't have much hope of getting published.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 07, 2016, 11:17:04 AM
  :)   Emily,   the ever probing Emily... what have Stephen Stan and I gone on to do since the 1970's?  I'll answer that after I recap one of your other inquisitive post..." Who paid for the studio time when Brian was walking around smoking... did the label pay for it... did Brother Records pay for it... did Brian pay for it... PAY...PAY...PAY? I stated that Studio Time was booked at Brother Records because Brian wanted Dennis and Carl, the sole owners, to receive the money for the expensive sessions as opposed to some other studio. Even though Brian preferred to record at Western Studios in Hollywood... because he liked the recording engineer there! AND as for WHAT Stephen, Stan and I have gone on to do since the 70's... before I ask you WHAT YOU HAVE DONE...ever... before or after the 70's... I personally have done over 20 National Commercials... including a Wheaties Commercial where I had the PRINCIPAL role of the Quarterback in a football commercial entitled "What the Big Boys Eat". Wheaties also put me on the COVER of the Wheaties Box in full uniform, as well as sold a POSTER of me from the back of the WHEATIES BOX! This was 1983 and I was the FIRST and ONLY person to ever be on the Wheaties Box that wasn't  an extremely famous athlete... like Bob Mathiasson (sp)? the Olympic Decathlon Champion... or Bruce Jenner, another Olympic Decathlon Champion... AND MICHAEL JORDAN...  just to name a few! Another note worth modeling job was the International Camel Man job, in 1990, where I not only shot  Print Magazine adds, for magazines, and Billboards ... I also shot and was  featured in EIGHT International Commercials... as "THE CAMEL MAN"... all of which were aired in 87 COUNTRIES outside the United States. I worked for over 165 days a year... for three consecutive years... at $3000.00 dollars a day (in my contract it was stipulated I could take an Assistant/Girlfriend with me at $1000.00 dollars a week). We shot in places like Hong Kong, Tokyo, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, New Guinea, Borneo, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, Sydney, Brisbane, Queensland, Perth, New England, and Colorado Springs where I rappelled  off a 14,900 ft. cliff and hung there for the better part of a week! I won the Job over 1000 models video taped in New York, Los Angeles, Rome, Paris, and London I was then flown to New York, London, and Miami to be introduced to all of R.J. Reynolds hundreds of sales rep's as "THE INTERNATIONAL CAMEL MAN of the 90's". I also worked on the Soap Opera "The Young and The Restless" in 1985 and 1986, as a day player. :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: RiC on January 07, 2016, 11:47:59 AM
   RiC,   I usually don't waste my time responding to negative B.S. but ... talk about the pot calling the kettle! In your recent post...You criticized my grammar. Would you look at what YOU wrote in that same post (and I Quote)..." to put it bluntly in the most lightly way " and "there's not much things to straighten up" ???   GIVE ME A BREAK... PAL!!! Are you sure you can read? 
Yeah, I already said my grammar sucks. And that wasn't the point of that post anyway.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 07, 2016, 12:21:53 PM
   Emily,   the ever probing Emily... what have Stephen Stan and I gone on to do since the 1970's?  I'll answer that after I recap one of your other inquisitive post..." Who paid for the studio time when Brian was walking around smoking... did the label pay for it... did Brother Records pay for it... did Brian pay for it... PAY...PAY...PAY? I stated that Studio Time was booked at Brother Records because Brian wanted Dennis and Carl, the sole owners, to receive the money for the expensive sessions as opposed to some other studio. Even though Brian preferred to record at Western Studios in Hollywood... because he liked the recording engineer there! AND as for WHAT Stephen, Stan and I have gone on to do since the 70's... before I ask you WHAT YOU HAVE DONE...ever... before or after the 70's... I personally have done over 20 National Commercials... including a Wheaties Commercial where I had the PRINCIPAL role of the Quarterback in a football commercial entitled "What the Big Boys Eat". Wheaties also put me on the cover of the Wheaties Box in full uniform. This was 1983 and I was the FIRST and ONLY person to ever be on the Wheaties Box that wasn't  an extremely famous athlete... like Bob Mathieson, the Olympic Decathlon Champion... or Bruce Jenner, another Olympic Decathlon Champion... Michael Jordan...    do I need to tell you who he is?... just to name a few! In 1990 I got the International Camel Man job... where I not only shot  Print Magazine adds and Billboards ... I was featured in EIGHT Commercials... as THE CAMEL MAN... all of which were aired in 87 COUNTRIS outside the United States. I worked over 165 days a year... for three consecutive years... at $3000.00 dollars a day... not to mention the $300.00 dollars a day per diem. In my contract I was allowed to take a girlfriend/assistant with me at $1000.00 dollars a week. We shot in places like Hong Kong, Tokyo, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, New Guinea, Borneo, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, Austrailia, Sydney, Brisbaine, Queensland, Perth, New England, and Colorado Springs where I REPELLED off a 14,900 ft. cliff and hung there for the better part of a week! Just to name a few off the top of my head... Oh... and when I won the Job over 1000 models videoed in New York, Los Angeles, Rome, Paris, and London I was flown to New York, London, and Miami to be introduced to all of R.J. Reynolds hundreds of sales rep's as THE CAMEL MAN of the 90's!!! Did I mention I also worked on "The Young and The Restless" in 1985 and 1986?
That sounds interesting and like you've done well for yourself.
When Mike Love almost fired Stephen Love during the Australia tour, was this because Mike Love was angry that you had hit Carl Wilson and that Stephen Love supported you?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 07, 2016, 01:54:07 PM
 :)   Emily,   No... Mike Love didn't almost fire Stephen! Mike Love practically LEVITATED out of his chair he jumped up so HIGH, after the room cleared, and shook my hand repeatedly... telling me that was greatest Rocky! There was no love between Mike and Carl... or Mike and especially Dennis! Dennis was the SEX symbol of the group... who throngs of girls screamed his name before every show...DENNIS...DENNIS...WE LOVE YOU DENNIS.  This irritated Mike to no end... who would skulk around on stage having to endure Dennis's ADULATION (it didn't help matters that Mike was bald and had to wear a cap or a fake Captains hat at all times... like he was Captain of the Beach Boys) Al was the President of the group at that time whom Dennis and Carl tried to intimidate  into forcing Stephen into sending me home... and as I've stated before... Stephen absolutely refused to do so...STATING... that if someone would have stood up to these DRUG ADDICTS long ago Brian might not have permanent BRAIN DAMAGE from taking so many DRUGS! TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR It wasn't until later when Mike (Harishi), who once told Stephen I don't want my younger brother telling me what to do, was meditating in some ashram, two weeks before the next tour, and Stephen sent Mike a telegram saying "NOW is not the time to be STUPID" you need to get back here to rehearse with the group before we go out on tour (as all bands do if they expect to put on a good show) That telegram was what turned the SELF ENLIGHTENED Guru against Stephen...HOW DARE a MAGNA CUM LAUDE GRADUATE call an all D's and one F student with an A in P.E "STUPID"! Stephen was doing exactly what a good manager is supposed to do... as opposed to kissing their asses... like so many other Managers do (to keep their jobs). Stephen was  trying to keep a bunch of, by then, misfits... prima-donnas - resurrected -  pop-stars... and one self acclaimed Guru... IN LINE ... on the straight and narrow... and touring again... as in MAKING MONEY to afford their LAVISH lifestyles! BY NO MEANS AN EASY TASK!!!  Drug addicts... (would be) Guru --- VS ---  Magna Cum laude U.S.C. Graduate with a Masters in Business! THAT'S WHAT MY BOOK IS ABOUT! :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on January 07, 2016, 02:58:43 PM
    Dear Juice Brohnston,  in response to your post on Dec 29 asking me to "see if you can get Stephen to come on board" and that you "found his comments on "Man vs Clown" insightful" First off THANK YOU for wishing me a HAPPY NEW YEAR... and the same to you. I truly believe it will be a happy and prosperous year! I did talk to Stephen about your request to come on Smile... and his reply was... isn't this the guy with the planet of the apes head and the face of Mike Love and the mash-up of a fake name for Bruce Johnson.. who has posted numerous negative posts on this thread? To which I replied ... YES... that's the guy! I do not wish to alienate you... you did wish me a Happy New Year.. but I must say I almost had Stephen talked into cumming on Smile... except that He is a very private person... and does not wish to be taken advantage of by people who might take CHEAP SHOT'S  at him. I can assure you that Stephen does not have a mean spirited bone in his body... or he probably would have used the physical skills he possesses, from having earned a Football Scholarship to U.S.C., in 1965 to kick his brother , Mike Love's, ASS for having wrongfully fired him as the Beach Boy Manager for not sending me home, from the Austrailian tour, for punching out Carl because Carl gave, the ever broke, Dennis $100 bucks he bought Heroin with, even though he was supposed to be a devout hardliner AGAINST DRUGS!  All members of the Beach Boy Tour were ISSUED a personal MEMO from Stephen...STATING... that NO ONE was to give or loan money to Dennis while in this foreign Country... for fear that he would get arrested for procuring ILLEGAL DRUGS... and cause an International SCANDAL... forcing the entire TOUR to be CANCELLED. Such were the everpressing concerns and fears of Stephens when it came to booking any tour with Dennis!!! The REAL reason Mike turned on Stephen was because Stephen sent Mike a telegram at an ashram stating "Now is not the time to be STUPID" you need to get back here to rehearse with the group before we go out on tour! Mike's last report card at Dorsey High School was all D's and one F and one A in P.E. (Mike tried out for the Cross Country Team... but QUIT after TWO weeks) (he also watched the Varsity Football Team practice one day... and said THAT wasn't for him)
Rock,
No alienation on my part. Great dialogue here. I actually have always had a keen interest in Stephen's time with the band,  and although I don't know all the facts, I tend to lean towards the opinion that he probably was justified in the actions that he took, on the business/investment side of management.
Curious though in what he would construe as 'negative comments' by myself in this thread. I went back, and looked over the few comments I have posted here, and couldn't find a shred of negativity. Any thoughts?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 07, 2016, 03:03:45 PM
Don't want to hog the thread but am curious about my question below.
thanks
Rocky, I'm curious about your mindset back then, I guess this will be covered in the book but was wondering why you didn't just maybe with your football background tackle Carl and Dennis and smack them around a bit rather than go for the full beat down. I can imagine Dennis and addicts are difficult/annoying to deal with.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mikeddonn on January 07, 2016, 03:54:12 PM
  Emily,   No... Mike Love didn't almost fire Stephen! Mike Love practically LEVITATED out of his chair he jumped up so HIGH, after the room cleared, and shook my hand repeatedly... telling me that was greatest Rocky! There was no love between Mike and Carl... or Mike and especially Dennis! Dennis was the SEX symbol of the group... who throngs of girls screamed his name before every show...DENNIS...DENNIS...I LOVE YOU DENNIS...DENNIS!  This irritated Mike to no end... who would skulk around on stage having to endure Dennis's ADULATION (it didn't help matters that Mike was bald and had to wear a cap or a fake Captains hat at all times... like he was Captain of the Beach Boys steering the ship) Al was the, ever changing, President of the group at that time whom Dennis and Carl tried to intimidate into forcing Stephen into sending me home... and as I've stated before... Stephen absolutely refused to do so...STATING... that if someone would have stood up to these DRUG ADDICTS before long ago Brian might not have permanent BRAIN DAMAGE from taking so many DRUGS! Just to be perfectly clear... It wasn't until later when Mike (Harishi) was meditating (scheming and napping) in some ashram ... two weeks before the next tour... and Stephen sent Mike a telegram saying "NOW is not the time to be STUPID" you need to get back here to rehearse with the group before we go out on tour (as all bands do if they expect to put on a good show) That telegram was what turned the SELF ENLIGHTENED Guru against Stephen...HOW DARE a MAGNA CUM LAUDE GRADUATE call an all D's and one F student with an A in P.E "STUPID" Stephen was doing exactly what a good manager is supposed to do... as opposed to kissing their asses... like so many other Managers do...( to keep their HIGH paying jobs) Stephen was  trying to keep a bunch of, by then, misfits... prima-donna - resurrected -  pop-stars... and one self acclaimed Guru... IN LINE ... and touring again... as in MAKING MONEY to afford their LAVISH lifestyles! BY NO MEANS AN EASY TASK!!!    Drug addicts... Fake Guru --- VS ---  Magna Cum laude U.S.C. Graduate with a Masters in Business! (You Do The Math)   THAT'S WHAT MY BOOK IS ABOUT

Rocky, I'm loving the posts from you.  Great insight into a very interesting time in Beach Boys history.  Your post above highlights the frustrations and difficulties which would come from managing the group.  They have had a history through the years of making the wrong decisions from a business point of view.  I hadn't really looked at it from the perspective of them being prima-donna's.  I'm looking forward to hearing more in the book.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on January 07, 2016, 03:59:14 PM
I think that it's great that Rocky and company tried to keep the heroin away from Brian but I guess it wasn't as important to keep the other brothers away from that dangerous drug as well. I still think the violence was uncalled for and the sort of " you weren't there so you don't know what we had to deal with" response is bullshit. I think they beat up Dennis out of jealousy, thinking he was a rich, punk ,rock star who had it coming. Rocky has all but admitted that. I also don't think that being the Camel man and starting kids on the road to smoking is anything to brag about. And by the way, I think that Emily was just asking a question and not being contentious .


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: The 4th Wilson Bro. on January 07, 2016, 04:49:12 PM
I think that it's great that Rocky and company tried to keep the heroin away from Brian but I guess it wasn't as important to keep the other brothers away from that dangerous drug as well. I still think the violence was uncalled for and the sort of " you weren't there so you don't know what we had to deal with" response is bullshit. I think they beat up Dennis out of jealousy, thinking he was a rich, punk ,rock star who had it coming. Rocky has all but admitted that. I also don't think that being the Camel man and starting kids on the road to smoking is anything to brag about. And by the way, I think that Emily was just asking a question and not being contentious .

That was my thought as well.  But it seems as though Mr. Pamplin responds in anger when someone asks an innocent question, while gushing over every facetious comment aimed at insulting him.  Quite curious indeed.

I can't seem to work my way past his apparent belief that Carl Wilson was nothing more than a spoiled brat, drug fiend, spineless rock star who deserved all he got from Rocky, and more.  Truth be told, that alone is enough to cause me to seriously doubt almost all of what Rocky has stated during his visits to this board.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 07, 2016, 07:32:39 PM
  Cam Mott,   No... one Beach Boy could not fire Stephen. It was Dennis and Carl who wanted Stephen to send me home from the tour for following Brian's wife Marilyn and Stephens "ORDERS" NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... of any kind... at any time... any where... by anybody... EVER ... PERIOD!!! Even David Frost finally got it... when I stood up, in THE SHOWDOWN MEETING, and said would you like me to call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about one of your employees supplying HEROIN to Dennis... who in turn gave some to Brian!!! Because she will have Stan and I and Brian on a plane back home... before you can say GLORIOUS TOUR one more time! Stephen, Stan and I are not just going to sweep this Heroin incident under the carpet!!! Is there any part of this you don't understand?
This brings up a question for me, Rocky, why was Brian on the tour? From what you say, it sounds like Marilyn was concerned and would be ready to insist he come home if you called. What convinced her it was safe for him to go in the first place?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 07, 2016, 07:36:11 PM
And by the way, I think that Emily was just asking a question and not being contentious .

That was my thought as well.  
Thanks guys. Indeed, that question was not meant sardonically. I was just wondering.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on January 07, 2016, 07:41:50 PM
   Cam Mott,   No... one Beach Boy could not fire Stephen. It was Dennis and Carl who wanted Stephen to send me home from the tour for following Brian's wife Marilyn and Stephens "ORDERS" NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... of any kind... at any time... any where... by anybody... EVER ... PERIOD!!! Even David Frost finally got it... when I stood up, in THE SHOWDOWN MEETING, and said would you like me to call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about one of your employees supplying HEROIN to Dennis... who in turn gave some to Brian!!! Because she will have Stan and I and Brian on a plane back home... before you can say GLORIOUS TOUR one more time! Stephen, Stan and I are not just going to sweep this Heroin incident under the carpet!!! Is there any part of this you don't understand?
This brings up a question for me, Rocky, why was Brian on the tour? From what you say, it sounds like Marilyn was concerned and would be ready to insist he come home if you called. What convinced her it was safe for him to go in the first place?

Also, if it was so important to keep Brian away from drugs, then why on Earth take him out on tour?  Too, why weren't Dennis and Carl's drug issues just as important as Brian's.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 08, 2016, 12:01:06 AM
Pure speculation here, but any chance the tours had been promoted and sold as 'the 5 originals/ Brian's Back' and if any member was not there it would be a breach of contract?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on January 08, 2016, 04:55:36 AM
It's pretty well documented in Heoes & Villians by Steven Gaines - Chapter 15, sub item 4, that money was the reason to take Brian on tour, and  a successful (ie incident free) tour by the complete BB's would also contribute to the continued generation of said money:

"One of Stephen Love's first responsibilities in his renewed role as manager was to arrange a three-week tour o f New Zulland and Australia to comply with the terms of the CBS contract.  The tour was to be promoted by David Frost's Australian entertainment company, Paradigm Productions, and road-managed by Richard Duryea, who was now working for Caribou.  One of Frost's most important demands was that Brian Wilson appear on tour, and he insisted on a contractual letter guaranteeing Brian was well enough to work."

Lurid details of NZ leg then from same tome, re the non-Wilson axis wanting Dennis getting the ass from the tour re the $100 heroin incident:
David Frost quotes in Melbourne - "...we're in the middle of a tour that's on the verge of being the most successful tour in Australia ever, record breaking, a stunning success...the realities of the situation are the fees that we pay (ie the BB's cash) are the result of the backing of AGC, the biggest financing company in Australia...they would certainly sue you (BB's) for 50 million dollars, because if anything goes wrong...If Dennis left the tour all hell would break loose..."


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 08, 2016, 05:58:30 AM
   Cam Mott,   No... one Beach Boy could not fire Stephen. It was Dennis and Carl who wanted Stephen to send me home from the tour for following Brian's wife Marilyn and Stephens "ORDERS" NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... of any kind... at any time... any where... by anybody... EVER ... PERIOD!!! Even David Frost finally got it... when I stood up, in THE SHOWDOWN MEETING, and said would you like me to call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about one of your employees supplying HEROIN to Dennis... who in turn gave some to Brian!!! Because she will have Stan and I and Brian on a plane back home... before you can say GLORIOUS TOUR one more time! Stephen, Stan and I are not just going to sweep this Heroin incident under the carpet!!! Is there any part of this you don't understand?
This brings up a question for me, Rocky, why was Brian on the tour? From what you say, it sounds like Marilyn was concerned and would be ready to insist he come home if you called. What convinced her it was safe for him to go in the first place?
Also, if it was so important to keep Brian away from drugs, then why on Earth take him out on tour?  Too, why weren't Dennis and Carl's drug issues just as important as Brian's.
Reading all this makes me wonder why, if there was a serious heroin (opiate) addiction, why the legal treatment of methadone was not used, to keep them all functioning and not having them to deal with drug dealers. Methadone was available for opiate addiction in the 70's (mid.) 

It does seem that "excessive force" may have been used to attempt to control what might have been controlled medically.  It also begs the question of "fitness to tour" and whether they could perform on the contract and whether, whomever arraged this had done their homework to figure that piece out, before setting up a tour with a bunch of unknowns, specifically, the issue of sobriety.  It would have created an international incident, landing one or more of them in jail, had it become public.  ;)     


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on January 08, 2016, 07:07:33 AM
  Cam Mott,   No... one Beach Boy could not fire Stephen. It was Dennis and Carl who wanted Stephen to send me home from the tour for following Brian's wife Marilyn and Stephens "ORDERS" NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... of any kind... at any time... any where... by anybody... EVER ... PERIOD!!! Even David Frost finally got it... when I stood up, in THE SHOWDOWN MEETING, and said would you like me to call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about one of your employees supplying HEROIN to Dennis... who in turn gave some to Brian!!! Because she will have Stan and I and Brian on a plane back home... before you can say GLORIOUS TOUR one more time! Stephen, Stan and I are not just going to sweep this Heroin incident under the carpet!!! Is there any part of this you don't understand?
This brings up a question for me, Rocky, why was Brian on the tour? From what you say, it sounds like Marilyn was concerned and would be ready to insist he come home if you called. What convinced her it was safe for him to go in the first place?
Also, if it was so important to keep Brian away from drugs, then why on Earth take him out on tour?  Too, why weren't Dennis and Carl's drug issues just as important as Brian's.
Reading all this makes me wonder why, if there was a serious heroin (opiate) addiction, why the legal treatment of methadone was not used, to keep them all functioning and not having them to deal with drug dealers. Methadone was available for opiate addiction in the 70's (mid.)  

It does seem that "excessive force" may have been used to attempt to control what might have been controlled medically.  It also begs the question of "fitness to tour" and whether they could perform on the contract and whether, whomever arraged this had done their homework to figure that piece out, before setting up a tour with a bunch of unknowns, specifically, the issue of sobriety.  It would have created an international incident, landing one or more of them in jail, had it become public.  ;)      
For Brian it was protection to keep away from drugs. For Carl and Dennis who knows if anything was in place. I would think that Steve Love, being the manager, would have had everyone's best interest at heart, but it sure doesn't seem that way. Also, not under any circumstances do you use violence against your employers. You never bite the hand that feeds you.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 08, 2016, 07:11:24 AM
  Cam Mott,   No... one Beach Boy could not fire Stephen. It was Dennis and Carl who wanted Stephen to send me home from the tour for following Brian's wife Marilyn and Stephens "ORDERS" NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... of any kind... at any time... any where... by anybody... EVER ... PERIOD!!! Even David Frost finally got it... when I stood up, in THE SHOWDOWN MEETING, and said would you like me to call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about one of your employees supplying HEROIN to Dennis... who in turn gave some to Brian!!! Because she will have Stan and I and Brian on a plane back home... before you can say GLORIOUS TOUR one more time! Stephen, Stan and I are not just going to sweep this Heroin incident under the carpet!!! Is there any part of this you don't understand?
This brings up a question for me, Rocky, why was Brian on the tour? From what you say, it sounds like Marilyn was concerned and would be ready to insist he come home if you called. What convinced her it was safe for him to go in the first place?
Also, if it was so important to keep Brian away from drugs, then why on Earth take him out on tour?  Too, why weren't Dennis and Carl's drug issues just as important as Brian's.
Reading all this makes me wonder why, if there was a serious heroin (opiate) addiction, why the legal treatment of methadone was not used, to keep them all functioning and not having them to deal with drug dealers. Methadone was available for opiate addiction in the 70's (mid.)  

It does seem that "excessive force" may have been used to attempt to control what might have been controlled medically.  It also begs the question of "fitness to tour" and whether they could perform on the contract and whether, whomever arraged this had done their homework to figure that piece out, before setting up a tour with a bunch of unknowns, specifically, the issue of sobriety.  It would have created an international incident, landing one or more of them in jail, had it become public.  ;)      
For Brian it was protection to keep away from drugs. For Carl and Dennis who knows if anything was in place. I would think that Steve Love, being the manager, would have had everyone's best interest at heart, but it sure doesn't seem that way. Also, not under any circumstances do you use violence against your employers. You never bite the hand that feeds you.
It does seem like there was a huge imbalance in how they thought about Brian's problems vs. Dennis and Carl. Why was Brian considered Dennis' victim when they seem to have been in the same boat?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 08, 2016, 07:19:46 AM
  Cam Mott,   No... one Beach Boy could not fire Stephen. It was Dennis and Carl who wanted Stephen to send me home from the tour for following Brian's wife Marilyn and Stephens "ORDERS" NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... of any kind... at any time... any where... by anybody... EVER ... PERIOD!!! Even David Frost finally got it... when I stood up, in THE SHOWDOWN MEETING, and said would you like me to call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about one of your employees supplying HEROIN to Dennis... who in turn gave some to Brian!!! Because she will have Stan and I and Brian on a plane back home... before you can say GLORIOUS TOUR one more time! Stephen, Stan and I are not just going to sweep this Heroin incident under the carpet!!! Is there any part of this you don't understand?
This brings up a question for me, Rocky, why was Brian on the tour? From what you say, it sounds like Marilyn was concerned and would be ready to insist he come home if you called. What convinced her it was safe for him to go in the first place?
Also, if it was so important to keep Brian away from drugs, then why on Earth take him out on tour?  Too, why weren't Dennis and Carl's drug issues just as important as Brian's.
Reading all this makes me wonder why, if there was a serious heroin (opiate) addiction, why the legal treatment of methadone was not used, to keep them all functioning and not having them to deal with drug dealers. Methadone was available for opiate addiction in the 70's (mid.)  

It does seem that "excessive force" may have been used to attempt to control what might have been controlled medically.  It also begs the question of "fitness to tour" and whether they could perform on the contract and whether, whomever arraged this had done their homework to figure that piece out, before setting up a tour with a bunch of unknowns, specifically, the issue of sobriety.  It would have created an international incident, landing one or more of them in jail, had it become public.  ;)      
For Brian it was protection to keep away from drugs. For Carl and Dennis who knows if anything was in place. I would think that Steve Love, being the manager, would have had everyone's best interest at heart, but it sure doesn't seem that way. Also, not under any circumstances do you use violence against your employers. You never bite the hand that feeds you.
Marilyn had Brian's best interest at heart.  A general manager has to consider everyone.  Unless this was a special hire just for Brian?

What I have read is that heroin was the problem on that tour, with is a physical dependency, and cocaine is less physical but no less problematic.  Worse in a way if there is psychosis.  A physical dependency (heroin) could have been treated with methadone which was a legal treatment plan in those years.   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on January 08, 2016, 07:29:00 AM
  Cam Mott,   No... one Beach Boy could not fire Stephen. It was Dennis and Carl who wanted Stephen to send me home from the tour for following Brian's wife Marilyn and Stephens "ORDERS" NO DRUGS IN BRIAN'S LIFE... of any kind... at any time... any where... by anybody... EVER ... PERIOD!!! Even David Frost finally got it... when I stood up, in THE SHOWDOWN MEETING, and said would you like me to call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about one of your employees supplying HEROIN to Dennis... who in turn gave some to Brian!!! Because she will have Stan and I and Brian on a plane back home... before you can say GLORIOUS TOUR one more time! Stephen, Stan and I are not just going to sweep this Heroin incident under the carpet!!! Is there any part of this you don't understand?
This brings up a question for me, Rocky, why was Brian on the tour? From what you say, it sounds like Marilyn was concerned and would be ready to insist he come home if you called. What convinced her it was safe for him to go in the first place?
Also, if it was so important to keep Brian away from drugs, then why on Earth take him out on tour?  Too, why weren't Dennis and Carl's drug issues just as important as Brian's.
Reading all this makes me wonder why, if there was a serious heroin (opiate) addiction, why the legal treatment of methadone was not used, to keep them all functioning and not having them to deal with drug dealers. Methadone was available for opiate addiction in the 70's (mid.)  

It does seem that "excessive force" may have been used to attempt to control what might have been controlled medically.  It also begs the question of "fitness to tour" and whether they could perform on the contract and whether, whomever arraged this had done their homework to figure that piece out, before setting up a tour with a bunch of unknowns, specifically, the issue of sobriety.  It would have created an international incident, landing one or more of them in jail, had it become public.  ;)      
For Brian it was protection to keep away from drugs. For Carl and Dennis who knows if anything was in place. I would think that Steve Love, being the manager, would have had everyone's best interest at heart, but it sure doesn't seem that way. Also, not under any circumstances do you use violence against your employers. You never bite the hand that feeds you.
Marilyn had Brian's best interest at heart.  A general manager has to consider everyone.  Unless this was a special hire just for Brian?

What I have read is that heroin was the problem on that tour, with is a physical dependency, and cocaine is less physical but no less problematic.  Worse in a way if there is psychosis.  A physical dependency (heroin) could have been treated with methadone which was a legal treatment plan in those years.    
And to Steve and Rocky, apparently punching one's face was a treatment option too.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 08, 2016, 07:36:09 AM

And to Steve and Rocky, apparently punching one's face was a treatment option too.
Evidently


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Brians Sandbox on January 08, 2016, 07:46:40 AM
With hindsight might it had of been better to get them to wind in their expenses whilst they get cleaned up. How much they really needed to tour, we only have Rocky's word/opinion.

Anyway, never mind Rocky's autobiography, Mike's and Brian's autobiographies.
The big one to blow them all out of the water will be from a sideman who bedded more women and drove faster cars than Dennis, overwhelmed Brian with his musical talent in joining in 1968 leading to his retreat, ghost composed half of the Beach Boys catalogue from that year onwards and invested his money far more carefully than any of the BBs leading him to be far richer than all of them which was the last straw for Mike.
No, its not Ron Brown (who?) its Ed (still water runs deep) Carter!!!! Or I may have just made that all up.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 08, 2016, 07:58:34 AM
With hindsight might it had of been better to get them to wind in their expenses whilst they get cleaned up. How much they really needed to tour, we only have Rocky's word/opinion.

Anyway, never mind Rocky's autobiography, Mike's and Brian's autobiographies.
The big one to blow them all out of the water will be from a sideman who bedded more women and drove faster cars than Dennis, overwhelmed Brian with his musical talent in joining in 1968 leading to his retreat, ghost composed half of the Beach Boys catalogue from that year onwards and invested his money far more carefully than any of the BBs leading him to be far richer than all of them which was the last straw for Mike.
No, its not Ron Brown (who?) its Ed (still water runs deep) Carter!!!! Or I may have just made that all up.
Yes, it seems some financial outflow management and a good old mental health break may have been wise.
I look forward to that book!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: James Hughes-Clarke on January 08, 2016, 08:13:02 AM
I look forward to Rocky Pamplin's book, in the same way that I'd look forward to a book of poetry by the Kray Twins.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 08, 2016, 08:16:52 AM
This is a truly fascinating thread.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 08, 2016, 08:27:09 AM
This is a truly fascinating thread.
Because it reveals so much about all of us?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Malone on January 08, 2016, 08:49:20 AM
    I also worked on the Soap Opera "The Young and The Restless" in 1985 and 1986.

Rocky:

A quick search of IMBD for cast and crew of "Young and the Restless" (1973-present) turns up nothing for the name, "Pamplin."


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 08, 2016, 08:55:58 AM
This is a truly fascinating thread.
Because it reveals so much about all of us?

Not all of us...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 08, 2016, 09:02:05 AM
Rocky, I'm interested in hearing more about the funny stuff and rumors that were mentioned about the song credits trials, is there more information you could share?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 08, 2016, 09:05:56 AM
This is a truly fascinating thread.
Because it reveals so much about all of us?

Not all of us...
Of course not. All of us who are dumb enough to participate, I meant.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 08, 2016, 10:47:53 AM
 :)    drbeachboy,   You inquired as to why Brian was on tour...if keeping DRUGS out of Brian's life was so important. I assume you mean why risk having him out there on the road...and accessible to people and drugs. Well lets examine the situation... Brian had been in bed for the better part of 10 years... doing massive amounts of DRUGS... and not much else... except EAT... which would explain why he was 306 lb's when Stephen hired Stan and I. If I haven't mentioned the fact already... I will again. Brian would keep large sums of money in his house... make a phone call... and put $1000.00 dollars in his mail box.That was the extent of the effort Brian would put forth in a normal week... besides chowing down steaks and ice cream and what ever else his heart desired... the Beverly Glen market was only a phone call away! Marilyn was young and couldn't stop the GREAT Brian Wilson from doing anything... she couldn't even get him to take a shower... or clip his toenails and heavily stained fingernails... I forgot to mention his CHAIN SMOKING two to three packs of Marlboro's a day! Brian's voice was ravaged... by design... and sex was a forgone conclusion. So... in answer to your question... why was Brian out on tour? IN short, it was to STOP this very serious self destructive lifestyle!!! Brian was caught in the life threatening THROES of addiction... and as most of you know... the DRUG ADDICT is the last one to know it... to do anything about it... or to even CARE that the problem exists! And time just has a way of slipping away! And then they DIE!!! Brian was trying to kill himself... weather he knew it or not...(some think he did)... according to the Doctors... I know that seems hard for people to comprehend...because he was so talented and so admired and so rich and famous... and had so much to give to the world... SO MUCH TO LIVE FOR... but that was the bottom line. In Brian's mind LIFE was a twisted JOKE...he was LOST in a sea of deception(so to speak) at least that's what the SHRINKS conveyed to Marilyn and Stephen. So... they decided because Brian was a Musical Genius ... he should be doing some thing Musical. And because he was adamant about not wanting to write songs... or make hit records again... It was the Recording Studio... pacing around... until he got sick of that... and sits down at the Piano, and does what comes naturally to him, and then going out on the road (making money) but most of all to interrupt the downward spiral of his existing DRUG infested life! That's the best I can explain it. I'm sure many of you can do better! And I'm sure some of you will dazzle us with your espertise! :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on January 08, 2016, 10:58:59 AM
    drbeachboy,   You inquired as to why Brian was on tour... if keeping him off drugs was so important? Well... lets examine the situation... Brian had been in bed for the better part of 10 years... doing massive amounts of DRUGS... and not much else... except EAT... which would explain why he was 306 lb's when Stephen hired Stan and I. If I haven't mentioned the fact already... I will again. Brian would keep large sums of money in his house... make a phone call... and put $1000.00 dollars in his mail box.That was the extent of the effort Brian would put forth in a normal week... besides chowing down steaks and ice cream and what ever else his heart desired... the Beverly Glen market was only a phone call away also! Marilyn was young and couldn't stop the GREAT Brian Wilson from doing anything... she couldn't even get him to take a shower... or clip his toenails and heavily stained fingernails... I forgot to mention CHAIN SMOKING two to three packs of Marlboro's a day! Brian's voice was ravaged... by design... and sex was a forgone conclusion. So... in answer to your question... why was Brian out on tour? IN short, it was to STOP this very serious self destructive lifestyle!!! Brian was caught in the life threatening THROES of addiction... and as most of you know... the DRUG ADDICT is the last one to know it... to do anything about it... or to even acknowledge the problem exists! And time just has a way of slipping away! And then they DIE!!! Brian was trying to kill himself... weather he knew it or not...(some think he did) he had no desire to live! I know that seems hard for people to comprehend...because he was so talented and so admired and so rich and famous... and so much to give the world... so much to live for... but that was the bottom line. In Brian's mind LIFE was a twisted JOKE...he was LOST in a sea of deception(so to speak) at least that's what the SHRINKS conveyed to Marilyn and Stephen. So... they decided because Brian was a Musical Genius ... he should be doing some thing Musical. And because he was adamant about not wanting to write songs... or make hit records again... It was the Recording Studio... pacing around... until he got sick of that... and sits down at the Piano, and does what comes naturally to him, and then going out on the road (making money) but most of all... to interrupt the downward spiral of his existing DRUG infested life!!! That's the best I can explain it... I'm sure many of you can do better!
Thank you for the answer. It all makes sense except for the sending him on the road with Dennis & Carl, especially if you guys were doing nothing for their addictions. Sending an addict out on the road with two other addicts seems doomed for trouble. I would think Steve would have tried to do more than hold back money from Dennis, but not Carl. I would have thought that Steve would have tried getting Dennis & Carl in shape for the tour, as well.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Fall Breaks on January 08, 2016, 11:04:57 AM
Edit: never mind


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: J.G. Dev on January 08, 2016, 11:09:50 AM
   drbeachboy,   You inquired as to why Brian was on tour...if keeping DRUGS out of Brian's life was so important. I assume you mean why risk having him out there on the road...and accessible to people and drugs. Well lets examine the situation... Brian had been in bed for the better part of 10 years... doing massive amounts of DRUGS... and not much else... except EAT... which would explain why he was 306 lb's when Stephen hired Stan and I. If I haven't mentioned the fact already... I will again. Brian would keep large sums of money in his house... make a phone call... and put $1000.00 dollars in his mail box.That was the extent of the effort Brian would put forth in a normal week... besides chowing down steaks and ice cream and what ever else his heart desired... the Beverly Glen market was only a phone call away! Marilyn was young and couldn't stop the GREAT Brian Wilson from doing anything... she couldn't even get him to take a shower... or clip his toenails and heavily stained fingernails... I forgot to mention his CHAIN SMOKING two to three packs of Marlboro's a day! Brian's voice was ravaged... by design... and sex was a forgone conclusion. So... in answer to your question... why was Brian out on tour? IN short, it was to STOP this very serious self destructive lifestyle!!! Brian was caught in the life threatening THROES of addiction... and as most of you know... the DRUG ADDICT is the last one to know it... to do anything about it... or to even CARE that the problem exists! And time just has a way of slipping away! And then they DIE!!! Brian was trying to kill himself... weather he knew it or not...(some think he did) he had no desire to live! According to the Doctors... I know that seems hard for people to comprehend...because he was so talented and so admired and so rich and famous... and had so much to give to the world... SO MUCH TO LIVE FOR... but that was the bottom line. In Brian's mind LIFE was a twisted JOKE...he was LOST in a sea of deception(so to speak) at least that's what the SHRINKS conveyed to Marilyn and Stephen. So... they decided because Brian was a Musical Genius ... he should be doing some thing Musical. And because he was adamant about not wanting to write songs... or make hit records again... It was the Recording Studio... pacing around... until he got sick of that... and sits down at the Piano, and does what comes naturally to him, and then going out on the road (making money) but most of all... to interrupt the downward spiral of his existing DRUG infested life!!! That's the best I can explain it... I'm sure many of you can do better!

Only in the Bizaro World of the Beach Boys would it make sense to take someone out of the confines of their home and put them on a major rock tour to try and keep them away from drugs.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 08, 2016, 12:27:42 PM
I live in NZ and was a teenager in 78. The country, and to a lesser degree Australia as well, we're probably thought to be straight laced and so far off the beaten track that drugs would be hard to come by. Apparently not so.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mikeddonn on January 08, 2016, 03:11:20 PM
   drbeachboy,   You inquired as to why Brian was on tour...if keeping DRUGS out of Brian's life was so important. I assume you mean why risk having him out there on the road...and accessible to people and drugs. Well lets examine the situation... Brian had been in bed for the better part of 10 years... doing massive amounts of DRUGS... and not much else... except EAT... which would explain why he was 306 lb's when Stephen hired Stan and I. If I haven't mentioned the fact already... I will again. Brian would keep large sums of money in his house... make a phone call... and put $1000.00 dollars in his mail box.That was the extent of the effort Brian would put forth in a normal week... besides chowing down steaks and ice cream and what ever else his heart desired... the Beverly Glen market was only a phone call away! Marilyn was young and couldn't stop the GREAT Brian Wilson from doing anything... she couldn't even get him to take a shower... or clip his toenails and heavily stained fingernails... I forgot to mention his CHAIN SMOKING two to three packs of Marlboro's a day! Brian's voice was ravaged... by design... and sex was a forgone conclusion. So... in answer to your question... why was Brian out on tour? IN short, it was to STOP this very serious self destructive lifestyle!!! Brian was caught in the life threatening THROES of addiction... and as most of you know... the DRUG ADDICT is the last one to know it... to do anything about it... or to even CARE that the problem exists! And time just has a way of slipping away! And then they DIE!!! Brian was trying to kill himself... weather he knew it or not...(some think he did) he had no desire to live! According to the Doctors... I know that seems hard for people to comprehend...because he was so talented and so admired and so rich and famous... and had so much to give to the world... SO MUCH TO LIVE FOR... but that was the bottom line. In Brian's mind LIFE was a twisted JOKE...he was LOST in a sea of deception(so to speak) at least that's what the SHRINKS conveyed to Marilyn and Stephen. So... they decided because Brian was a Musical Genius ... he should be doing some thing Musical. And because he was adamant about not wanting to write songs... or make hit records again... It was the Recording Studio... pacing around... until he got sick of that... and sits down at the Piano, and does what comes naturally to him, and then going out on the road (making money) but most of all... to interrupt the downward spiral of his existing DRUG infested life!!! That's the best I can explain it... I'm sure many of you can do better!

Fabulous post!  It makes sense and to a certain extent applies to Brian's life now.  We know he's not too comfortable touring, but the alternative is worse.  Hence, one of the reasons Brian still tours to this day.  The other, as with then, money!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: ChicagoAnn on January 08, 2016, 03:13:07 PM


Quote
Only in the Bizaro World of the Beach Boys would it make sense to take someone out of the confines of their home and put them on a major rock tour to try and keep them away from drugs.

This comment made me laugh out loud.

That said, it was the 70s and there was the notion of "just get 'em back to work and that'll fix 'em right up."  It does seem odd that encouraging touring and performing as a cure for someone who openly, clearly and adamantly has hated (and feared) it since 1964 seems odd.  Well, more than odd, it's freakin' irrational. But as others have pointed out, it's the Beach Boys.

Rocky, how aware was anyone around Brian that he was seriously mentally ill? Was his behavior all considered to be only due to drugs?



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 08, 2016, 05:02:25 PM
 :)   mikeddonn,   Well, what do you know... You get it! Bravo... it seems your one of the few. Or perhaps it's the few who just don't get it... that post their expert ( or should I say inane) opinions constantly! Some people are so obsessed with trying to impress one another with how intelligent they are! My book "WIPEOUT" is about a dire situation regarding Brian's life! :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on January 08, 2016, 05:10:05 PM
   mikeddonn,   Well, what do you know... You get it! Bravo... it seems your one of the few. Or perhaps it's the few who just don't get it... that post their expert ( or should I say inane) opinions constantly! Some people are so obsessed with trying to impress everyone with how intelligent they are! My book "WIPEOUT" is just about telling a story!
Hopefully, it answers the questions we have asked that haven't been addressed yet.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Empire Of Love on January 08, 2016, 05:26:53 PM
Rocky, I'm interested in hearing more about the funny stuff and rumors that were mentioned about the song credits trials, is there more information you could share?

This is one topic that has always fascinated me.  I've never fully bought into the court decision in regards to each and every claim Mike made.  He was clearly up against someone unable to really defend himself and, though I don't know much about Brian, I can gather some insight via analogy, and I think he could easily have been in "I don't give a damn" mode or "I don't feel like fighting mode".  Add in a ruthless attorney combined with a semi-delusional Mike Love and the result could easily be Brian being taken advantage of while he sat by and let it happen.

So I am up for funny stories and rumors in regards to the song writing credits trials, if you are willing to share.

EoL


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 08, 2016, 05:32:53 PM
*


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Chownow on January 08, 2016, 05:34:30 PM
Hi Rockcrush,

What do you mean when you say Brian Wilson has "permanent brain damage from doing too many drugs". I hadn't heard about this before.

Do you mean that you believe his mental illness was caused by drug use, or are you talking about something else?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Gerry on January 08, 2016, 05:40:32 PM
I have been under the assumption that if Brian has suffered any permanent damage it was due to the drugs Landy prescribed during the second go-round .


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 08, 2016, 06:48:40 PM
Without going looking for the source, I'm sure Brian has said that the drugs he took (I'm assuming he means self prescribed) basically "messed with his mind".


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 08, 2016, 06:50:59 PM
Without going looking for the source, I'm sure Brian has said that the drugs he took (I'm assuming he means self prescribed) basically "messed with his mind".
It's pretty easy to confuse onset of schizoid symptoms with acid hallucinations.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on January 08, 2016, 07:28:38 PM
It seems to me that there is more than one person posting here as 'rockrush'.  Read the posts.  Some are submitted by an individual who didn't get what one might call a formal education.

The odd few though?  Well let's say that THAT typist DID attend some classes.

Know what I mean?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Autotune on January 08, 2016, 08:26:33 PM
It seems to me that there is more than one person posting here as 'rockrush'.  Read the posts.  Some are submitted by an individual who didn't get what one might call a formal education.

The odd few though?  Well let's say that THAT typist DID attend some classes.

Know what I mean?

I believe that they are posted by the same person. It's just that some of the posting seems to be cut and pasted from a book (rough) draft.

To each their own, but I think it's wiser to read his replies to poster's questions, and learn what we can from them, than trying to preach him out of the board. All lf us are entitled to our beliefs and our value system; but there must be an interesting story there, or two. And I say they're worth listening.
 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 08, 2016, 08:31:28 PM
It seems to me that there is more than one person posting here as 'rockrush'.  Read the posts.  Some are submitted by an individual who didn't get what one might call a formal education.

The odd few though?  Well let's say that THAT typist DID attend some classes.

Know what I mean?

I believe that they are posted by the same person. It's just that some of the posting seems to be cut and pasted from a book (rough) draft.

To each their own, but I think it's wiser to read his replies to poster's questions, and learn what we can from them, than trying to preach him out of the board. All lf us are intitled to our beliefs and our value system; but there must be an interesting story there, or two. And I say they're worth listening.
 
ok but not because of this business of everyone being entitled to their beliefs and value systems. Some things are just wrong.
But because someone might be able to learn something they think is of value, I'll withdraw my above post for now.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Ian on January 09, 2016, 04:41:31 AM
Rocky
Some specific questions for you. Was the Australian/New Zealand tour the only time you went on the road with the beach boys? Or were you on the road for the very tense short tours in the states in October and November 1977 when the band was close to breaking up? Did you accompany them to the two nights of gigs in Hawaii at the end of that tour? Any stories about that? I know Marilyn and Brian's girls came to those.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: catlag on January 09, 2016, 06:27:22 AM
   drbeachboy,   You inquired as to why Brian was on tour...if keeping DRUGS out of Brian's life was so important. I assume you mean why risk having him out there on the road...and accessible to people and drugs. Well lets examine the situation... Brian had been in bed for the better part of 10 years... doing massive amounts of DRUGS... and not much else... except EAT... which would explain why he was 306 lb's when Stephen hired Stan and I. If I haven't mentioned the fact already... I will again. Brian would keep large sums of money in his house... make a phone call... and put $1000.00 dollars in his mail box.That was the extent of the effort Brian would put forth in a normal week... besides chowing down steaks and ice cream and what ever else his heart desired... the Beverly Glen market was only a phone call away! Marilyn was young and couldn't stop the GREAT Brian Wilson from doing anything... she couldn't even get him to take a shower... or clip his toenails and heavily stained fingernails... I forgot to mention his CHAIN SMOKING two to three packs of Marlboro's a day! Brian's voice was ravaged... by design... and sex was a forgone conclusion. So... in answer to your question... why was Brian out on tour? IN short, it was to STOP this very serious self destructive lifestyle!!! Brian was caught in the life threatening THROES of addiction... and as most of you know... the DRUG ADDICT is the last one to know it... to do anything about it... or to even CARE that the problem exists! And time just has a way of slipping away! And then they DIE!!! Brian was trying to kill himself... weather he knew it or not...(some think he did)... according to the Doctors... I know that seems hard for people to comprehend...because he was so talented and so admired and so rich and famous... and had so much to give to the world... SO MUCH TO LIVE FOR... but that was the bottom line. In Brian's mind LIFE was a twisted JOKE...he was LOST in a sea of deception(so to speak) at least that's what the SHRINKS conveyed to Marilyn and Stephen. So... they decided because Brian was a Musical Genius ... he should be doing some thing Musical. And because he was adamant about not wanting to write songs... or make hit records again... It was the Recording Studio... pacing around... until he got sick of that... and sits down at the Piano, and does what comes naturally to him, and then going out on the road (making money) but most of all to interrupt the downward spiral of his existing DRUG infested life! That's the best I can explain it. I'm sure many of you can do better! And I'm sure some of you will dazzle us with your espertise!

I'm sure people around Brian thought that it would be best to send him as far away as possible from whoever was bringing drugs to him at home. Everybody must have been doing the best they could... They loved Brian and wanted to help.

I've read many times about things Brian said about not wanting to live... And I remember Marilyn, in an interview for a documentary (I think it was IJWMFTT) talking about how Brian wanted to die, but then she said that it was "all very innocent". I always wondered what she meant by that... Did she not take it seriously?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 09, 2016, 09:08:21 AM
There could also be a genetic element but am not sure. Reading the famous Murry letter it seemed like his father may have had some issues as well. Brian's attempt to "self-medicate" probably exacerbated his issues beyond repair.

I've always believed Brian had a stroke and this is why his face/mouth tilts to a side. Stroke unfortunately damages the brain.

Without going looking for the source, I'm sure Brian has said that the drugs he took (I'm assuming he means self prescribed) basically "messed with his mind".
It's pretty easy to confuse onset of schizoid symptoms with acid hallucinations.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on January 09, 2016, 09:10:53 AM
There could also be a genetic element but am not sure. Reading the famous Murry letter it seemed like his father may have had some issues as well. Brian's attempt to "self-medicate" probably exacerbated his issues beyond repair.

Without going looking for the source, I'm sure Brian has said that the drugs he took (I'm assuming he means self prescribed) basically "messed with his mind".
It's pretty easy to confuse onset of schizoid symptoms with acid hallucinations.

I think it was on Mike Douglas in '76 that Brian said something to the effect of "I took the LSD - it shattered my mind. I came back, in I don't know HOW many pieces..."


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Autotune on January 09, 2016, 10:33:40 AM
Brian's diagnosis has been made public explicitly. He had mental issues since at least the early 60s, and although it is likely that drugs and the stress he was submitted to had their share in aggravating them, they would have occured anyway.   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 09, 2016, 11:23:29 AM
Brian Wilson has a diagnosed mental illness. It's pretty clear there are others with mental illness in his family, evidently going back a few generations.
Often the symptoms of mood disorders don't begin to manifest until adolescence, sometimes not until later. It is often not until the twenties that the manifestation is enough to be recognized.
It has not been scientifically established that lsd or other non-prescription drugs affect the onset of mood disorders. It's not uncommon for people to begin taking recreational drugs at about the same age (adolescence - mid-twenties) that mood disorders become evident. There's no proven cause-and-effect between recreational drugs and mood disorders, only in many instances a coincidence of timing.  Brian Wilson began taking recreational drugs at the time that his mood disorder began to manifest.
As his mood disorder's symptoms increased, he seems to have been taking non-prescription drugs to self-medicate. You are confusing the cause with the effect.
The myth among rock fans that lsd causes psychosis is born out of a coincidence of timing. Can we at least stop perpetuating it here?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 09, 2016, 12:12:43 PM
I pretty much give Marilyn a pass. What she had to deal with and that Brian actually was actually into her sister it was too much.
They were young and not many people are equipped at that age to deal with mental disorders.
I am most interested in her book and her chance to tell her side. I imagine she will leave out much of the dirt for the sake of the daughters and grandkids but we'll see.

I've read many times about things Brian said about not wanting to live... And I remember Marilyn, in an interview for a documentary (I think it was IJWMFTT) talking about how Brian wanted to die, but then she said that it was "all very innocent". I always wondered what she meant by that... Did she not take it seriously?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on January 09, 2016, 12:22:32 PM
I'm not sure Brian meant that his LSD experiments caused his psychosis - but rather that they had other negative effects, like the shattering of his ego. And Carl is on record (in 1981) as saying something to the effect that someone with Brian's fragile personality shouldn't have been messing around with that stuff. My gut feeling is that the shattering of Brian's ego (in whole or in part LSD-influenced) along with his habitual amphetamine use resulted in the unfinished state of SMiLE. Other factors may have contributed to form a perfect storm, but those two factors loom large, in my opinion.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 09, 2016, 12:22:42 PM
I pretty much give Marilyn a pass. What she had to deal with and that Brian actually was actually into her sister it was too much.
They were young and not many people are equipped at that age to deal with mental disorders.
I am most interested in her book and her chance to tell her side. I imagine she will leave out much of the dirt for the sake of the daughters and grandkids but we'll see.

Have you heard she is writing a book?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 09, 2016, 12:39:29 PM
Yes I heard it from a huge BB fan & friend.

I pretty much give Marilyn a pass. What she had to deal with and that Brian actually was actually into her sister it was too much.
They were young and not many people are equipped at that age to deal with mental disorders.
I am most interested in her book and her chance to tell her side. I imagine she will leave out much of the dirt for the sake of the daughters and grandkids but we'll see.

Have you heard she is writing a book?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Chownow on January 09, 2016, 01:44:30 PM
Hey everyone,

I didn't mean to derail the thread with my questions. I'm  just very interested in people's perceptions and the stigmas associated with mental illness.

From what I've read, Brian Wilson suffers from bipolar schizoaffective disorder (symptoms of both bipolar and schizophrenia). Classic symptoms of schizophrenia are social withdrawal, lack of speech (not initiating conversations, answering questions with just yes or no, with no elaboration), lack of emotional expression, garbled speech, disorganized thinking, etc. People tend to be aware of the psychotic symptoms of mental illness (how could you miss them?), but are often unaware of these more subtle symptoms. I was wondering if folks were interpreting these types of symptoms as "brain damage". Anti-psychotic drugs can alleviate psychotic symptoms, but do not alleviate the types of symptoms I just listed.

The cause of bipolar disorder and schizophrenia seems to be mostly genetic. Serious trauma in early childhood (such as extreme physical or sexual abuse) appears to play a role as well. The only drug associated with permanently exacerbating psychotic symptoms is marijuana.

Brian Wilson himself might have thought drugs played arole in bringing on his illness. People often try to make sense of what's happening to them by latching onto an explanation, like chem trails from jets, or a trip to the dentist (who implanted mind control transmitters in their teeth!) etc. It just the mind trying to make sense of what is happening to it.

Mr. Rockcrush seems to have interesting insights into the world of the beach boys from the 1970s. I didn't mean to interrupt that conversation!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 09, 2016, 01:59:06 PM
Brian's issues have been more than well documented.

What's facinating are the other psychological aspects of this thread. I am no shrink but the sociopathic traits being displayed by this individual are rather disturbing.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 09, 2016, 02:15:54 PM
Brian's issues have been more than well documented.

What's facinating are the other psychological aspects of this thread. I am no shrink but the sociopathic traits being displayed by this individual are rather disturbing.

I don't think Mr Pamplin is a sociopath (though trying to Internet-diagnose people is a fool's errand). He's showing far too little self-awareness for that.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 09, 2016, 02:23:45 PM
Brian's issues have been more than well documented.

What's facinating are the other psychological aspects of this thread. I am no shrink but the sociopathic traits being displayed by this individual are rather disturbing.

I don't think Mr Pamplin is a sociopath (though trying to Internet-diagnose people is a fool's errand). He's showing far too little self-awareness for that.

Not only does he show no guilt over assaulting Carl, beating the crap out of Dennis, sleeping with Brian's wife and promoting a product that kills millions every year, he seems mighty proud of himself! Do some research Andrew on what a sociopath is. The traits are very clearly and universally defined. A lot more easily done that trying to diagnose Brian, which is done unendingly here on the Board.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 09, 2016, 02:38:18 PM
Brian's issues have been more than well documented.

What's facinating are the other psychological aspects of this thread. I am no shrink but the sociopathic traits being displayed by this individual are rather disturbing.

I don't think Mr Pamplin is a sociopath (though trying to Internet-diagnose people is a fool's errand). He's showing far too little self-awareness for that.

Not only does he show no guilt over assaulting Carl, beating the crap out of Dennis, sleeping with Brian's wife and promoting a product that kills millions every year, he seems mighty proud of himself! Do some research Andrew on what a sociopath is. The traits are very clearly and universally defined. A lot more easily done that trying to diagnose Brian, which is done unendingly here on the Board.


Being violent and remorseless, while reprehensible, are not in themselves the only criteria for psychopathy (the term "sociopath" is not usually used these days). Pamplin certainly hasn't checked off more than a few of the boxes on the Hare psychopathy scale in his responses here.

(And no, I don't approve of the attempts to Internet-diagnose Brian either, although discussion of what he's already revealed about himself seems reasonable.)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 09, 2016, 02:41:25 PM
Brian's issues have been more than well documented.

What's facinating are the other psychological aspects of this thread. I am no shrink but the sociopathic traits being displayed by this individual are rather disturbing.

I don't think Mr Pamplin is a sociopath (though trying to Internet-diagnose people is a fool's errand). He's showing far too little self-awareness for that.

Not only does he show no guilt over assaulting Carl, beating the crap out of Dennis, sleeping with Brian's wife and promoting a product that kills millions every year, he seems mighty proud of himself! Do some research Andrew on what a sociopath is. The traits are very clearly and universally defined. A lot more easily done that trying to diagnose Brian, which is done unendingly here on the Board.


Being violent and remorseless, while reprehensible, are not in themselves the only criteria for psychopathy (the term "sociopath" is not usually used these days). Pamplin certainly hasn't checked off more than a few of the boxes on the Hare psychopathy scale in his responses here.

(And no, I don't approve of the attempts to Internet-diagnose Brian either, although discussion of what he's already revealed about himself seems reasonable.)

Agree Andrew.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 09, 2016, 03:23:09 PM
Hey everyone,

I didn't mean to derail the thread with my questions.... I didn't mean to interrupt that conversation!
Don't worry, Chownow. It's not so much of a conversation.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 09, 2016, 04:18:19 PM
Brian's issues have been more than well documented.

What's facinating are the other psychological aspects of this thread. I am no shrink but the sociopathic traits being displayed by this individual are rather disturbing.

I don't think Mr Pamplin is a sociopath (though trying to Internet-diagnose people is a fool's errand). He's showing far too little self-awareness for that.

Not only does he show no guilt over assaulting Carl, beating the crap out of Dennis, sleeping with Brian's wife and promoting a product that kills millions every year, he seems mighty proud of himself! Do some research Andrew on what a sociopath is. The traits are very clearly and universally defined. A lot more easily done that trying to diagnose Brian, which is done unendingly here on the Board.


Rocky, even though I disapprove of your actions, I am wrong to judge! My apologies. You have a story to tell and you had a unique place in BB history!

You hinted about some unheard info involving Stephen and the lyric trial. Can you elaborate on that. I think Stephen's posts on M vs. C were very interesting! I think his posting here would be welcomed!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 09, 2016, 05:17:48 PM


Rocky, even though I disapprove of your actions, I am wrong to judge! My apologies. You have a story to tell and you had a unique place in BB history!

You hinted about some unheard info involving Stephen and the lyric trial. Can you elaborate on that. I think Stephen's posts on M vs. C were very interesting! I think his posting here would be welcomed!
Philosophical question, not just for Oregon River Rider but for anyone who cares to respond: I've seen many people say some version of "I am wrong to judge" on this thread. Why is it wrong to judge? Is there no moral or ethical right and wrong other than it being wrong to judge?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Debbie KL on January 09, 2016, 05:31:46 PM
You know, I’ve been looking at this thread and remember being a 17 year old sorting through the fan mail and answering the phones at the Ivar offices in 69-70.  Suddenly, I started seeing this young, bright, red-haired man apprenticing to Nick Grillo.  They explained to me that this was Mike Love’s brother Steve who was magna cum laude at USC.  Having known that very young man, I’ve been wondering if he might tell us about his life from then, through being the BBs manager through today.
 
I’d like to join the others who are curious to see Steve post here.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 09, 2016, 05:34:36 PM
Emily. If I don't know 'all the facts' I personally would say I am wrong to judge. I don't know much about Rocky's time with the group so I won't use the Beach Boys or that tour or what happened during it to make my point.

Person A hits person B, for what reason, who threw the first punch, were there witnesses, alcohol, drugs, a previous incident, self defence or what ever. Unless I know for sure, I am wrong to judge.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 09, 2016, 05:38:43 PM


Rocky, even though I disapprove of your actions, I am wrong to judge! My apologies. You have a story to tell and you had a unique place in BB history!

You hinted about some unheard info involving Stephen and the lyric trial. Can you elaborate on that. I think Stephen's posts on M vs. C were very interesting! I think his posting here would be welcomed!
Philosophical question, not just for Oregon River Rider but for anyone who cares to respond: I've seen many people say some version of "I am wrong to judge" on this thread. Why is it wrong to judge? Is there no moral or ethical right and wrong other than it being wrong to judge?
What I meant was it's wrong of me to put a label on Rocky. I can't see his eyes, hear his voice. He is holding back on a lot of things.  Is he emphasizing the villan to stir interest in his book? I have been pretty outspoken in my disapproval of his actions.  But I am wrong to label him as this or that. Civil discourse, as Billy put it. He deserves to tell his whole story!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on January 09, 2016, 05:43:40 PM
Emily. If I don't know 'all the facts' I personally would say I am wrong to judge. I don't know much about Rocky's time with the group so I won't use the Beach Boys or that tour or what happened during it to make my point.

Person A hits person B, for what reason, who threw the first punch, were there witnesses, alcohol, drugs, a previous incident, self defence or what ever. Unless I know for sure, I am wrong to judge.
Shouldn't matter what the reason is, when you work for someone you don't punch him in the face, unless they struck you first. From anything that I have read about the incident, that did not occur. Even Rocky's explanation to me here never mentioned that he was struck first.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 09, 2016, 05:44:44 PM
Emily. If I don't know 'all the facts' I personally would say I am wrong to judge. I don't know much about Rocky's time with the group so I won't use the Beach Boys or that tour or what happened during it to make my point.

Person A hits person B, for what reason, who threw the first punch, were there witnesses, alcohol, drugs, a previous incident, self defence or what ever. Unless I know for sure, I am wrong to judge.
I agree that there are cases where one doesn't have enough facts to judge, but in this case the guy who threw the first punch has told us his motives. Is it then wrong to judge? How much information do you need to make a judgment? He's admitted he did it and told us why.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 09, 2016, 06:41:46 PM
Emily. If I don't know 'all the facts' I personally would say I am wrong to judge. I don't know much about Rocky's time with the group so I won't use the Beach Boys or that tour or what happened during it to make my point.

Person A hits person B, for what reason, who threw the first punch, were there witnesses, alcohol, drugs, a previous incident, self defence or what ever. Unless I know for sure, I am wrong to judge.
Shouldn't matter what the reason is, when you work for someone you don't punch him in the face, unless they struck you first. From anything that I have read about the incident, that did not occur. Even Rocky's explanation to me here never mentioned that he was struck first.

Funny you mention an employer/ employee disagreement today....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11571704

Just because someone pays your salary does not make them right all the time. As I mentioned above, I'm not too familiar with the incident mainly because it was such a bad period that I would prefer to avoid. Christchurch 1978 was my first concert and the start of my enjoyment of all things Beach Boys. Rose tinted glasses and all.  Guess I better start searching.

 :thud


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on January 09, 2016, 07:53:27 PM
Emily. If I don't know 'all the facts' I personally would say I am wrong to judge. I don't know much about Rocky's time with the group so I won't use the Beach Boys or that tour or what happened during it to make my point.

Person A hits person B, for what reason, who threw the first punch, were there witnesses, alcohol, drugs, a previous incident, self defence or what ever. Unless I know for sure, I am wrong to judge.
Shouldn't matter what the reason is, when you work for someone you don't punch him in the face, unless they struck you first. From anything that I have read about the incident, that did not occur. Even Rocky's explanation to me here never mentioned that he was struck first.

Funny you mention an employer/ employee disagreement today....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11571704

Just because someone pays your salary does not make them right all the time. As I mentioned above, I'm not too familiar with the incident mainly because it was such a bad period that I would prefer to avoid. Christchurch 1978 was my first concert and the start of my enjoyment of all things Beach Boys. Rose tinted glasses and all.  Guess I better start searching.

 :thud
I never said Carl was right, but punching him in the face while he is paying your salary is not a smart thing.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 09, 2016, 08:02:34 PM
Emily. If I don't know 'all the facts' I personally would say I am wrong to judge. I don't know much about Rocky's time with the group so I won't use the Beach Boys or that tour or what happened during it to make my point.

Person A hits person B, for what reason, who threw the first punch, were there witnesses, alcohol, drugs, a previous incident, self defence or what ever. Unless I know for sure, I am wrong to judge.
Shouldn't matter what the reason is, when you work for someone you don't punch him in the face, unless they struck you first. From anything that I have read about the incident, that did not occur. Even Rocky's explanation to me here never mentioned that he was struck first.

Funny you mention an employer/ employee disagreement today....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11571704

Just because someone pays your salary does not make them right all the time. As I mentioned above, I'm not too familiar with the incident mainly because it was such a bad period that I would prefer to avoid. Christchurch 1978 was my first concert and the start of my enjoyment of all things Beach Boys. Rose tinted glasses and all.  Guess I better start searching.

 :thud
I never said Carl was right, but punching him in the face while he is paying your salary is not a smart thing.
It's outside of my moral code to punch someone in the face whether they are right, wrong, my employer or not. The only reason to punch someone in the face is if it's the only means to stop something worse from happening. So, if they were about to kill someone, using physical force to stop them would be OK. If they said something insulting to you and were eating too many cold cuts and their brothers got some money and some heroin or something like that, using physical force to ?? I don't even know the purpose ?? is not.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: adamghost on January 09, 2016, 09:52:51 PM
I guess the way I'd look at it is I tend to withhold judgment on peoples' actions without a full understanding of the environment (including reacting to the people around them) that they were in and the options they had at the time.  Judging people to the extent that we encounter them by their own words and actions in the present day is different, and seems fair game to me, though withholding final judgment until you understand context is good no matter who you're dealing with.

Forming provisional opinions is always appropriate, though.  Particularly when parts of them are more or less thrust in one's face.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on January 09, 2016, 09:59:22 PM
I guess the way I'd look at it is I tend to withhold judgment on peoples' actions without a full understanding of the environment (including reacting to the people around them) that they were in and the options they had at the time.  Judging people to the extent that we encounter them by their own words and actions in the present day is different, and seems fair game to me, though withholding final judgment until you understand context is good no matter who you're dealing with.

Forming provisional opinions is always appropriate, though.  Particularly when parts of them are more or less thrust in one's face.

Beautifully said, Sir.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 09, 2016, 10:21:18 PM
I guess the way I'd look at it is I tend to withhold judgment on peoples' actions without a full understanding of the environment (including reacting to the people around them) that they were in and the options they had at the time.  Judging people to the extent that we encounter them by their own words and actions in the present day is different, and seems fair game to me, though withholding final judgment until you understand context is good no matter who you're dealing with.

Forming provisional opinions is always appropriate, though.  Particularly when parts of them are more or less thrust in one's face.
Do you believe there are no absolute wrongs? Everything is OK depending on context? Every event is in a unique context, so if morality is dependent on the immediate context, one can't say until it happens that any action is wrong. And one can never have a full understanding of an environment, so really one can never make a moral judgment at all.
To me, context can make doing something morally wrong understandable and might be able to excite my empathy, but that doesn't mean wrong is no longer wrong.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on January 10, 2016, 12:04:32 AM
Emily - I think anyone with an ounce of common sense is listening to you and would agree that these things that happened some 40 years ago were f***ed-up.

If you want Rocky to publicly say "I was morally wrong to do what I did, I wish I hadn't, what can I do to make it up to Brian, Carl, and Add Some?" I don't think that's gonna (going to) happen based on Rocky's current replies.

This thread, the Man vs Clown debacle and a tome or 2 seem to indicate that Rocky & Steve feel justified re how they handled things.

It was a toxic environment back then, was anyone behaving well?

Steve Love punched out Blondie Chaplin a few years earlier for dissing him. Dennis on the tour in New Zealand beat up his wife Karen Lamm, breaking her sternum in three places according to reports; Carl slipped Dennis $100 to get pinned.  Brian was on this tour because the promoter and the band/famiy wanted the bread ala goose that laid the golden egg - the Brian needs to be out there being creating thing is a crock (imo for that bit).  Murry sold the catalogue.

These actions may not be within the bounds of your moral code (nor mine, btw), but let’s not miss the chance to get this stuff documented as is - and learn from the mistakes.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 10, 2016, 12:09:57 AM
Emily - I think anyone with an ounce of common sense is listening to you and would agree that these things that happened some 40 years ago were f***ed-up.

If you want Rocky to publicly say "I was morally wrong to do what I did, I wish I hadn't, what can I do to make it up to Brian, Carl, and Add Some?" I don't think that's gonna (going to) happen based on Rocky's current replies.

This thread, the Man vs Clown debacle and a tome or 2 seem to indicate that Rocky & Steve feel justified re how they handled things.

It was a toxic environment back then, was anyone behaving well?

Steve Love punched out Blondie Chaplin a few years earlier for dissing him. Dennis on the tour in New Zealand beat up his wife Karen Lamm, breaking her sternum in three places according to reports; Carl slipped Dennis $100 to get pinned.  Brian was on this tour because the promoter and the band/famiy wanted the bread ala goose that laid the golden egg - the Brian needs to be out there being creating thing is a crock (imo for that bit).  Murry sold the catalogue.

These actions may not be within the bounds of your moral code (nor mine, btw), but let’s not miss the chance to get this stuff documented as is - and learn from the mistakes.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for that response. I agree Rocky Pamplin will not say what he did was wrong (though he should at least offer to take AddSome out to dinner); and I have no problem with people seeking information from him. I'm just thrown off by the repeated assertions that it's wrong to judge.
But I'll leave it there.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on January 10, 2016, 12:11:09 AM
I've never heard the Dennis and Karen Lamm story. Do i even want to know the story behind it?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 10, 2016, 01:01:00 AM
Emily - I think anyone with an ounce of common sense is listening to you and would agree that these things that happened some 40 years ago were f***ed-up.

If you want Rocky to publicly say "I was morally wrong to do what I did, I wish I hadn't, what can I do to make it up to Brian, Carl, and Add Some?" I don't think that's gonna (going to) happen based on Rocky's current replies.

This thread, the Man vs Clown debacle and a tome or 2 seem to indicate that Rocky & Steve feel justified re how they handled things.

It was a toxic environment back then, was anyone behaving well?

Steve Love punched out Blondie Chaplin a few years earlier for dissing him. Dennis on the tour in New Zealand beat up his wife Karen Lamm, breaking her sternum in three places according to reports; Carl slipped Dennis $100 to get pinned.  Brian was on this tour because the promoter and the band/famiy wanted the bread ala goose that laid the golden egg - the Brian needs to be out there being creating thing is a crock (imo for that bit).  Murry sold the catalogue.

These actions may not be within the bounds of your moral code (nor mine, btw), but let’s not miss the chance to get this stuff documented as is - and learn from the mistakes.

I was thinking along the same lines. 40 years ago things were a lot different. Not right, just different. Ali was King, John Wayne took no sh!t to name a few. Imagine the Beach Boys on the road in NZ and Australia. They and their staff all in their 30s. We're there any wives or females in the travelling party? The testosterone must have been super changed. Throw in at least a couple of ex pro athletes, alcohol, drugs and a lot of down time, marriage breakdowns and inter band bad blood. The list probably could keep going.
Imagine this super charged atmosphere. A group of alpha males and one of them says F*** Y**.

Then, and probably now, it would be very hard to turn the other cheek.

Edit
Ok on a re read.Karen may have been on the tour, or part of it. I would also add that we know Carl was on the worse behaviour of his career. As hard as it is to say it, he was probably an asshole, as that drunken performance in Australia suggests.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Autotune on January 10, 2016, 05:00:09 AM
Emily. If I don't know 'all the facts' I personally would say I am wrong to judge. I don't know much about Rocky's time with the group so I won't use the Beach Boys or that tour or what happened during it to make my point.

Person A hits person B, for what reason, who threw the first punch, were there witnesses, alcohol, drugs, a previous incident, self defence or what ever. Unless I know for sure, I am wrong to judge.
I agree that there are cases where one doesn't have enough facts to judge, but in this case the guy who threw the first punch has told us his motives. Is it then wrong to judge? How much information do you need to make a judgment? He's admitted he did it and told us why.

I'm no relativist by any means. It's just that trying to show Rocky his wrongdoings, or trying to make one's own statement, while futile, can also lead to an informed, "been-there" poster to leave. It's happened in the past a number of times. I'd rather keep him.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mikeddonn on January 10, 2016, 05:29:15 AM
Emily. If I don't know 'all the facts' I personally would say I am wrong to judge. I don't know much about Rocky's time with the group so I won't use the Beach Boys or that tour or what happened during it to make my point.

Person A hits person B, for what reason, who threw the first punch, were there witnesses, alcohol, drugs, a previous incident, self defence or what ever. Unless I know for sure, I am wrong to judge.
I agree that there are cases where one doesn't have enough facts to judge, but in this case the guy who threw the first punch has told us his motives. Is it then wrong to judge? How much information do you need to make a judgment? He's admitted he did it and told us why.

I'm no relativist by any means. It's just that trying to show Rocky his wrongdoings, or trying yo make one's own statement, while futile, can easily lead to an informed, "been-there" poster to leave. It's happened in the past a number of times. I'd rather keep him.

I hear you with that one.  I also agree with Adam and Alan and what they posted.  I wouldn't worry too much about Rocky.  He's thick skinned enough I think and is probably here to promote his book and will leave when he chooses or stick around on his terms.  I hope he does stay as I enjoy reading his posts and it's been an eye opener.  It has forced us to look at this period with a new perspective.

We all love Carl but the idea of him being a spoilt brat (and all of them possible being the same) is not hard to understand.  It might or might not be the case but these guys have been waited on hand and foot since their teens (early in Carl's case).  I'm sure with drugs and alcohol thrown in they weren't always on top form.  He incident with Carl had a positive outcome a he cleaned up pretty quickly.

Rocky and Stan dealt with things in a way they felt was right and in the context of the times would be more understood by those in the Beach Boys camp.  Personally, I believe none of us should judge anyone and just pray we are never put in the position of others who's action we may find questionable.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 10, 2016, 08:08:33 AM
Emily - I think anyone with an ounce of common sense is listening to you and would agree that these things that happened some 40 years ago were f***ed-up.

If you want Rocky to publicly say "I was morally wrong to do what I did, I wish I hadn't, what can I do to make it up to Brian, Carl, and Add Some?" I don't think that's gonna (going to) happen based on Rocky's current replies.

This thread, the Man vs Clown debacle and a tome or 2 seem to indicate that Rocky & Steve feel justified re how they handled things.

It was a toxic environment back then, was anyone behaving well?

Steve Love punched out Blondie Chaplin a few years earlier for dissing him. Dennis on the tour in New Zealand beat up his wife Karen Lamm, breaking her sternum in three places according to reports; Carl slipped Dennis $100 to get pinned.  Brian was on this tour because the promoter and the band/famiy wanted the bread ala goose that laid the golden egg - the Brian needs to be out there being creating thing is a crock (imo for that bit).  Murry sold the catalogue.

These actions may not be within the bounds of your moral code (nor mine, btw), but let’s not miss the chance to get this stuff documented as is - and learn from the mistakes.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for that response. I agree Rocky Pamplin will not say what he did was wrong (though he should at least offer to take AddSome out to dinner); and I have no problem with people seeking information from him. I'm just thrown off by the repeated assertions that it's wrong to judge.
But I'll leave it there.
Emily - your gut is telling you what is right or wrong.  Thank God.  But, the context is important. Especially the context of the times.  It is too bad those who had heroin addictions were not on methadone.  I don't care much for the "kiss and tell" element.  It seems that there was some element of desperation to cobble someone together to perform onstage for 2 hours out of 24.  But as someone mentioned, we don't know what other obligations they had to fulfill.  It is likely he went too far, according to what he has been sharing.  Anyway you look at it, it is troubling.  Even 40 years post.

Another poster mentioned something about Carl being a spoiled brat.  And Dennis and Carl asking who was going to do their laundry when Brian left the road.  That is the old pecking order in a family.   I have three sons.  The oldest looked after the younger ones, like a great big brother.  The baby of the family is "always" the baby of the family.  We used to laugh when my mother called my youngest brother the "baby." We laughed but it was not a joke.  He was "her baby." They are no different. 

It is the long-studied "pecking order" - but what happens when the big brother who washed your clothes on the road falls apart and the roles are reversed?  The apple cart is upset and they are the ones who have to step up and take charge, as it appears with Carl's  big involvement with Wild Honey, and other work.  And Dennis doing his solo work, coming out of his big bro's shadow.  Dennis' did a great interview with Peter Fornatale where he talks about how "they would have traded it all in, to get Brian well."  it sounds like the kind of brother-bond and at the time of the interview, Dennis seemed to be in a "good place."   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 10, 2016, 08:49:43 AM
This is not always true. A buddy of mine dominates over his older weakling, cowardly brother even though he's the youngest. It's quite a sight to see.
I could certainly imagine Dennis imposing his will on his older brother Brian.

That is the old pecking order in a family.   I have three sons.  The oldest looked after the younger ones, like a great big brother.  The baby of the family is "always" the baby of the family. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 10, 2016, 09:30:20 AM
This is not always true. A buddy of mine dominates over his older weakling, cowardly brother even though he's the youngest. It's quite a sight to see.
I could certainly imagine Dennis imposing his will on his older brother Brian.

That is the old pecking order in a family.   I have three sons.  The oldest looked after the younger ones, like a great big brother.  The baby of the family is "always" the baby of the family. 

You just cracked me up.  With mine, the oldest is the shortest. The youngest is the tallest.  And the middle is right in the middle.  Huey, Duey and Louie or Alvin, Simon and Theodore!  :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boy
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 10, 2016, 10:27:25 AM
This is not always true. A buddy of mine dominates over his older weakling, cowardly brother even though he's the youngest. It's quite a sight to see.

Does he live in North Korea by any chance? :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boy
Post by: SteveMC on January 10, 2016, 11:08:21 AM
 :lol :lol :lol
This is not always true. A buddy of mine dominates over his older weakling, cowardly brother even though he's the youngest. It's quite a sight to see.

Does he live in North Korea by any chance? :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 10, 2016, 12:09:52 PM
I agree with you all that in the context of the particular situation and people, it’s not surprising that there was some violence, particulary as some people were brought along for the exact purpose of providing "muscle".
Regarding the context of the times, which I think is way overdone with moral relativity (I mean Buddha, Jesus, Confucius and Lao Tzu all lived more than 2000 years ago), I disagree that it should have much effect: in the seventies I ate cold cuts and I'm sure I was rude many times and no one punched me in the face. More seriously, people understood then as well as they do now that almost no ethical philosophies support solving problems or taking out anger through personal violence. As to Muhammed Ali and John Wayne, boxing and movies are just as violent now. Ali in particular had a relatively non-violent boxing style.
As to whether Carl was behaving well, some of you seem willing to judge him as deserving to be punched without even hearing his side, yet here is Rocky Pamplin telling his side and you don’t want to judge?
Also, there isn't only the Carl incident at hand, there's the Dennis incident, during which they weren't on tour and Rocky Pamplin wasn't even with them in any atmosphere according to his account. He was phoned and jumped at the chance to go beat someone up.

To the point: are you saying that if you understand and empathize with someone’s behavior you are not able to judge it as wrong?

Autotune: I hear what you’re saying and I’m sorry if this is off-putting to Rocky Pamplin’s participation; I did delete a post, at your request, that expressed my distaste for what Mr. Pamplin has said here, though certainly worse has been posted before and he returned. Personally, I think he’s canny enough to hold back on what he’s tempted us with until the book comes out or until someone convinces him with other remuneration not to publish it. He seems pretty good at hinting and not delivering and I suspect he’s enjoying watching everyone chase after his crumbs and begging for more. I understand the posters who are refraining from commenting or are asking neutral questions and avoiding stating judgments. It doesn’t bother me that people aren’t announcing their judgment; it’s the repeated assertions that we can not judge that set me off.

Mikeddonn: I could not disagree more with the implications of your post regarding the benefit of punching Carl.

FilledePlage: Except for the context of the time thing I agree with you.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 10, 2016, 12:58:19 PM
I agree with you all that in the context of the particular situation and people, it’s not surprising that there was some violence, particulary as some people were brought along for the exact purpose of providing "muscle".
Regarding the context of the times, which I think is way overdone with moral relativity (I mean Buddha, Jesus, Confucius and Lao Tzu all lived more than 2000 years ago), I disagree that it should have much effect: in the seventies I ate cold cuts and I'm sure I was rude many times and no one punched me in the face. More seriously, people understood then as well as they do now that almost no ethical philosophies support solving problems or taking out anger through personal violence. As to Muhammed Ali and John Wayne, boxing and movies are just as violent now. Ali in particular had a relatively non-violent boxing style.
As to whether Carl was behaving well, some of you seem willing to judge him as deserving to be punched without even hearing his side, yet here is Rocky Pamplin telling his side and you don’t want to judge?
Also, there isn't only the Carl incident at hand, there's the Dennis incident, during which they weren't on tour and Rocky Pamplin wasn't even with them in any atmosphere according to his account. He was phoned and jumped at the chance to go beat someone up.

To the point: are you saying that if you understand and empathize with someone’s behavior you are not able to judge it as wrong?

Autotune: I hear what you’re saying and I’m sorry if this is off-putting to Rocky Pamplin’s participation; I did delete a post, at your request, that expressed my distaste for what Mr. Pamplin has said here, though certainly worse has been posted before and he returned. Personally, I think he’s canny enough to hold back on what he’s tempted us with until the book comes out or until someone convinces him with other remuneration not to publish it. He seems pretty good at hinting and not delivering and I suspect he’s enjoying watching everyone chase after his crumbs and begging for more. I understand the posters who are refraining from commenting or are asking neutral questions and avoiding stating judgments. It doesn’t bother me that people aren’t announcing their judgment; it’s the repeated assertions that we can not judge that set me off.

Mikeddonn: I could not disagree more with the implications of your post regarding the benefit of punching Carl.

FilledePlage: Except for the context of the time thing I agree with you.

Emily - I don't think many would disagree that it was excessive force. I was not there, so I cannot comment on why it was done. 

But they had addicted band members on the road who were likely struggling in daily existence.  And notwithstanding the other issues, the drug addiction was not dealt with, with treatment, to make "going to work" soberly and consistently so the whole organization could be about the business of keeping the music alive. 

It had to be source of great tension and stress, all around, to not know whether this or that member was going to be impaired during a performance, or go off in a foreign city and get arrested trying to make "a buy."  They were not always on their own home turf.  Just sayin'


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 10, 2016, 01:14:40 PM
Just read a few of Rocky's posts relating to the Carl incident.

Rocky..(Dec17)
I then said...You know David... you asked if you could come in and talk to us for a few minutes...and all you've done for the last 90 minutes is tell us what we CAN and CAN'T do...I then picked up the phone and said...why don't I call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about your employee procuring HEROINE....,,,for Dennis... and Dennis giving some of the Heroine to Brian!!! You can't just SWEEP this HEROINE under the carpet...David! When Carl once again blurts out talk to someone else Rocky...F_ _ _ YOU!!!

If the above is correct, David Frost was the employer, not Carl (or The Beach Boys). This was a disagreement between employees. Also worth mentioning, Carl could have charged Rocky with assault while in Australia but chose not to.




Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 10, 2016, 01:15:32 PM

Emily - I don't think many would disagree that it was excessive force. I was not there, so I cannot comment on why it was done. 

But they had addicted band members on the road who were likely struggling in daily existence.  And notwithstanding the other issues, the drug addiction was not dealt with, with treatment, to make "going to work" soberly and consistently so the whole organization could be about the business of keeping the music alive. 

It had to be source of great tension and stress, all around, to not know whether this or that member was going to be impaired during a performance, or go off in a foreign city and get arrested trying to make "a buy."  They were not always on their own home turf.  Just sayin'

Yes. As I said in the post you quoted:

I agree with you all that in the context of the particular situation and people, it’s not surprising that there was some violence, particularly as some people were brought along for the exact purpose of providing "muscle".
...
To the point: are you saying that if you understand and empathize with someone’s behavior you are not able to judge it as wrong?



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 10, 2016, 01:28:59 PM

Emily - I don't think many would disagree that it was excessive force. I was not there, so I cannot comment on why it was done. 

But they had addicted band members on the road who were likely struggling in daily existence.  And notwithstanding the other issues, the drug addiction was not dealt with, with treatment, to make "going to work" soberly and consistently so the whole organization could be about the business of keeping the music alive. 

It had to be source of great tension and stress, all around, to not know whether this or that member was going to be impaired during a performance, or go off in a foreign city and get arrested trying to make "a buy."  They were not always on their own home turf.  Just sayin'

Yes. As I said in the post you quoted:

I agree with you all that in the context of the particular situation and people, it’s not surprising that there was some violence, particularly as some people were brought along for the exact purpose of providing "muscle".
...
To the point: are you saying that if you understand and empathize with someone’s behavior you are not able to judge it as wrong?

Emily - I used the term "excessive force."


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 10, 2016, 01:34:22 PM
Just read a few of Rocky's posts relating to the Carl incident.

Rocky..(Dec17)
I then said...You know David... you asked if you could come in and talk to us for a few minutes...and all you've done for the last 90 minutes is tell us what we CAN and CAN'T do...I then picked up the phone and said...why don't I call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about your employee procuring HEROINE....,,,for Dennis... and Dennis giving some of the Heroine to Brian!!! You can't just SWEEP this HEROINE under the carpet...David! When Carl once again blurts out talk to someone else Rocky...F_ _ _ YOU!!!

If the above is correct, David Frost was the employer, not Carl (or The Beach Boys). This was a disagreement between employees. Also worth mentioning, Carl could have charged Rocky with assault while in Australia but chose not to.



He has said that he was hired by Stephen Love and that he answered to Marilyn Wilson and Stephen Love. I'm not clear if he was technically working for BRI (which would be troubling) or privately for Marilyn. I'm sure he was not employed by David Frost. David Frost had a contractual relationship with BRI to arrange and promote the tour. I think the "your employee procuring HEROINE" reference is to an employee of David Frost's (not Carl Wilson) procuring heroin for Dennis Wilson." I think Rocky believes that the money for that heroin came from Carl.

But, if this is a reply to me, my question is not "what is your judgment?" it is "why do you feel one ought not make judgments?"


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 10, 2016, 01:39:08 PM

Emily - I don't think many would disagree that it was excessive force. I was not there, so I cannot comment on why it was done.  

But they had addicted band members on the road who were likely struggling in daily existence.  And notwithstanding the other issues, the drug addiction was not dealt with, with treatment, to make "going to work" soberly and consistently so the whole organization could be about the business of keeping the music alive.  

It had to be source of great tension and stress, all around, to not know whether this or that member was going to be impaired during a performance, or go off in a foreign city and get arrested trying to make "a buy."  They were not always on their own home turf.  Just sayin'

Yes. As I said in the post you quoted:

I agree with you all that in the context of the particular situation and people, it’s not surprising that there was some violence, particularly as some people were brought along for the exact purpose of providing "muscle".
...
To the point: are you saying that if you understand and empathize with someone’s behavior you are not able to judge it as wrong?

Emily - I used the term "excessive force."
I'm sorry for not understanding. Is your point that you do consider it reasonable to judge and that you judge it as "excessive force?" (in which case, thank you for your response) or are you making a different point?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 10, 2016, 01:43:00 PM
Guys, I'm not asking what your judgment is, or why your judgment is not the same as mine. I'm asking why some feel that they can't make a moral judgment of someone else's behavior.
eta: Upon reflection, I realize I've responded to commentary that evaluates the specific situation rather than restricting my responses to commentary that responds to the question, thus two threads of conversation are going: why people aren't judging Rocky's behavior in the specific Carl incident to be wrong and, much less, why people are saying we can't judge in general.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mikeddonn on January 10, 2016, 01:52:19 PM


Mikeddonn: I could not disagree more with the implications of your post regarding the benefit of punching Carl.

[/quote]

Fair enough but does that mean you think the punch didn't serve as a reality check for Carl?

I don't know where you're going with all this.  No-one, including myself, has agreed that violence is the answer.  I don't agree with what happened in Australia.  I don't think Carl's actions merited the punch. 

You have the right to pass a moral judgement if you wish.  Me?  I prefer not too.  It's not for me to go around judging others.  I can disagree with their actions but I won't condemn anyone.  "There but for the grace of God..." I'm not perfect.  Is anyone?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 10, 2016, 01:59:14 PM

Fair enough but does that mean you think the punch didn't serve as a reality check for Carl?

I don't know where you're going with all this.  No-one, including myself, has agreed that violence is the answer.  I don't agree with what happened in Australia.  I don't think Carl's actions merited the punch.  

You have the right to pass a moral judgement if you wish.  Me?  I prefer not too.  It's not for me to go around judging others.  I can disagree with their actions but I won't condemn anyone.  "There but for the grace of God..." I'm not perfect.  Is anyone?
I don't really expect that it served as a reality check for Carl. It might have, but I think it would be an unusual and to me surprising response.

The only place I'm trying to go, though I agree I've followed people on tangents, is that I don't understand why people keep saying they shouldn't make a judgment.
Nobody is perfect, I agree, but I think that without moral judgments we wouldn't even have a concept of perfect. There would be no right and wrong.
Perhaps you and I differ on our interpretation of the word 'judge?' To me, it's not synonymous with 'condemn.'


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 10, 2016, 02:09:00 PM

Emily - I don't think many would disagree that it was excessive force. I was not there, so I cannot comment on why it was done.  

But they had addicted band members on the road who were likely struggling in daily existence.  And notwithstanding the other issues, the drug addiction was not dealt with, with treatment, to make "going to work" soberly and consistently so the whole organization could be about the business of keeping the music alive.  

It had to be source of great tension and stress, all around, to not know whether this or that member was going to be impaired during a performance, or go off in a foreign city and get arrested trying to make "a buy."  They were not always on their own home turf.  Just sayin'

Yes. As I said in the post you quoted:

I agree with you all that in the context of the particular situation and people, it’s not surprising that there was some violence, particularly as some people were brought along for the exact purpose of providing "muscle".
...
To the point: are you saying that if you understand and empathize with someone’s behavior you are not able to judge it as wrong?

Emily - I used the term "excessive force."
I'm sorry for not understanding. Is your point that you do consider it reasonable to judge and that you judge it as "excessive force?" (in which case, thank you for your response) or are you making a different point?
It is self-explanatory.  "Excessive" force. Not "reasonable" force.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on January 10, 2016, 02:18:35 PM
Geez I feel like I'm covered with some sticky, sickly, oozing grime when I enter this thread.  And now we're taking sides with or against an individual who took advantage of a guy he says he loves [loved] by having his way with his wife on an ongoing basis while the guy he was supposedly protecting was down and out of it?  THAT'S  N O T  love.  Then after pounding out [to within an inch of his life] Dennis for providing Brian with 'poisons' he decides in his infinite wisdom to head out and go drinking beers with Brian?  THAT'S  N O T  love either.  This same 'piece of work' COLD-COCKED Carl 'cause Carl was a spoiled brat?  HELL NO.  Carl with a back as bad as bad could be...to the point where he would sometimes need to SIT in a chair on stage while performing in concert...was obviously out of it and in need of help and support.  So?  He didn't get that help.  Were those pushermen chased away?  Beaten?  NO.  The result... Carl was beyond overmedicated. As such he then became a sitting duck and this worthless sob just laid him out flat.  What a friggin' hero.  All this while also grabbing his morron friend and heading over the pound Denny to the edge of existence simply  because he was an as sick as they come drug addict...and, as such...obviously, he desrved it.  

Ya.  That's the cure.

What the hell?  Let's big up Rocky.  I think he's only pissed on Al once here.  Bruce has escaped unscathed.  Mike on the other hand?  Mike's been buried...all in the name of selling us a book dictated by a guy who can barely speak English.  I mean talk about slowing down to view the results of a car wreck.

Rocky is just his nick name.  His real name can only be D I C K!!!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 10, 2016, 02:19:19 PM

Fair enough but does that mean you think the punch didn't serve as a reality check for Carl?

I don't know where you're going with all this.  No-one, including myself, has agreed that violence is the answer.  I don't agree with what happened in Australia.  I don't think Carl's actions merited the punch.  

You have the right to pass a moral judgement if you wish.  Me?  I prefer not too.  It's not for me to go around judging others.  I can disagree with their actions but I won't condemn anyone.  "There but for the grace of God..." I'm not perfect.  Is anyone?
I don't really expect that it served as a reality check for Carl. It might have, but I think it would be an unusual and to me surprising response.

The only place I'm trying to go, though I agree I've followed people on tangents, is that I don't understand why people keep saying they shouldn't make a judgment.
Nobody is perfect, I agree, but I think that without moral judgments we wouldn't even have a concept of perfect. There would be no right and wrong.
Perhaps you and I differ on our interpretation of the word 'judge?' To me, it's not synonymous with 'condemn.'
Well, we do/are judging. Resorting to physical violence on defenseless people is always wrong. I think what I, and others are saying is, let Rocky tell his story and hear him out. Let's try and get the fullest picture possible of Rocky the man. Then and now.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on January 10, 2016, 02:25:40 PM
We don't have that picture yet?

Really?

Surely you jest. :lol


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 10, 2016, 02:27:07 PM

Fair enough but does that mean you think the punch didn't serve as a reality check for Carl?

I don't know where you're going with all this.  No-one, including myself, has agreed that violence is the answer.  I don't agree with what happened in Australia.  I don't think Carl's actions merited the punch.  

You have the right to pass a moral judgement if you wish.  Me?  I prefer not too.  It's not for me to go around judging others.  I can disagree with their actions but I won't condemn anyone.  "There but for the grace of God..." I'm not perfect.  Is anyone?
I don't really expect that it served as a reality check for Carl. It might have, but I think it would be an unusual and to me surprising response.

The only place I'm trying to go, though I agree I've followed people on tangents, is that I don't understand why people keep saying they shouldn't make a judgment.
Nobody is perfect, I agree, but I think that without moral judgments we wouldn't even have a concept of perfect. There would be no right and wrong.
Perhaps you and I differ on our interpretation of the word 'judge?' To me, it's not synonymous with 'condemn.'
Well, we do/are judging. Resorting to physical violence on defenseless people is always wrong. I think what I, and others are saying is, let Rocky tell his story and hear him out. Let's try and get the fullest picture possible of Rocky the man. Then and now.
I think you and I understand some other posters differently. I don't think I disagree with you otherwise. Well, other than what we're trying to get a full picture of, but I don't take you quite literally on that.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 10, 2016, 02:33:04 PM

Fair enough but does that mean you think the punch didn't serve as a reality check for Carl?

I don't know where you're going with all this.  No-one, including myself, has agreed that violence is the answer.  I don't agree with what happened in Australia.  I don't think Carl's actions merited the punch. 

You have the right to pass a moral judgement if you wish.  Me?  I prefer not too.  It's not for me to go around judging others.  I can disagree with their actions but I won't condemn anyone.  "There but for the grace of God..." I'm not perfect.  Is anyone?
I don't really expect that it served as a reality check for Carl. It might have, but I think it would be an unusual and to me surprising response.

The only place I'm trying to go, though I agree I've followed people on tangents, is that I don't understand why people keep saying they shouldn't make a judgment.
Nobody is perfect, I agree, but I think that without moral judgments we wouldn't even have a concept of perfect. There would be no right and wrong.
Perhaps you and I differ on our interpretation of the word 'judge?' To me, it's not synonymous with 'condemn.'
Well, we do/are judging. Resorting to physical violence on defenseless people is always wrong. I think what I, and others are saying is, let Rocky tell his story and hear him out. Let's try and get the fullest picture possible of Rocky the man. Then and now.
I think you and I understand some other posters differently. I don't think I disagree with you otherwise.
Well, some seem to dig Rocky, the dude, which is kinda disturbing. I am just trying to be civil and not insulting, as I did somewhat in a post.

Anyway, keep  up your great posts! You are a refreshing voice of reason and class on the Board!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 10, 2016, 02:38:42 PM
Agreed, see Emily "play"! 8)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on January 10, 2016, 04:03:20 PM
This thread makes me feel dirty.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: jeffh on January 10, 2016, 04:20:51 PM
Yeah, too many people here sucking up to Rocky just so he doesn't leave.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 10, 2016, 05:14:34 PM
Just read a few of Rocky's posts relating to the Carl incident.

Rocky..(Dec17)
I then said...You know David... you asked if you could come in and talk to us for a few minutes...and all you've done for the last 90 minutes is tell us what we CAN and CAN'T do...I then picked up the phone and said...why don't I call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about your employee procuring HEROINE....,,,for Dennis... and Dennis giving some of the Heroine to Brian!!! You can't just SWEEP this HEROINE under the carpet...David! When Carl once again blurts out talk to someone else Rocky...F_ _ _ YOU!!!

If the above is correct, David Frost was the employer, not Carl (or The Beach Boys). This was a disagreement between employees. Also worth mentioning, Carl could have charged Rocky with assault while in Australia but chose not to.



He has said that he was hired by Stephen Love and that he answered to Marilyn Wilson and Stephen Love. I'm not clear if he was technically working for BRI (which would be troubling) or privately for Marilyn. I'm sure he was not employed by David Frost. David Frost had a contractual relationship with BRI to arrange and promote the tour. I think the "your employee procuring HEROINE" reference is to an employee of David Frost's (not Carl Wilson) procuring heroin for Dennis Wilson." I think Rocky believes that the money for that heroin came from Carl.

But, if this is a reply to me, my question is not "what is your judgment?" it is "why do you feel one ought not make judgments?"


No not directed at you Emily. Someone, or maybe more than one, mentioned the employee attacking their employer angle so just trying to understand who hired who back then.

Add Some. You bought up the fact  " he decides in his infinite wisdom to head out and go drinking beers with Brian?" Are you meaning in an alcoholic context? Brian still drinks I believe. See the RS story 'Fragile Reunion' 2012. Mike is telling him to have another beer (Lite from memory) as its a day off from the tour.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Lee Marshall on January 10, 2016, 06:19:43 PM
This would have been back before Brian had been anywhere near properly diagnosed and medicated P.F.  This would have been when NO drugs and NO alcohol was the prescribed best route to take.  Yet?  Let's beat the living crap out of Dennis but heh!!!  When it's just us it's all A-OK 'cause beers are OK?.   Thanks Dr. Pamplin.  You dumb ASS!!!

Look.  I know I said weeks ago that I 'get' that people wanna hear Rocky the Flying Squirrel vent and expose his view of 'reality'...and I get that Rocky is thoroughly enjoying having his lazy, stupid, repulsive ass kissed here...BUT...

Enough is enough.  His book will only be published on rolls and I WILL then spend the rest of my life cleaning up after myself with it.  Not unlike reading the Sears and Roebuck catalogue in Billy Edd Wheeler's Little Brown Shack out back.

What a creep. >:D What a fool. ::)

Your crappy little story means nothing Rocklette.  Anyone who spends a penny on YOU is doing the world a disservice.  You want encouragement?  I herebye encourage you to take a long walk off a short dock.  Wear metal boots.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Juice Brohnston on January 10, 2016, 07:31:04 PM
Was Rocky working on another book as well, or does the following describe an actual published work?

"“Surfgate,” five years in the making, is a fictionalized account of a copyright ownership dispute that occurred between two high profile rock stars that led to a music publishing lawsuit."


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 10, 2016, 08:05:58 PM
Was Rocky working on another book as well, or does the following describe an actual published work?

"“Surfgate,” five years in the making, is a fictionalized account of a copyright ownership dispute that occurred between two high profile rock stars that led to a music publishing lawsuit."
Sounds like a great read!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 10, 2016, 08:55:30 PM
This would have been back before Brian had been anywhere near properly diagnosed and medicated P.F.  This would have been when NO drugs and NO alcohol was the prescribed best route to take.  Yet?  Let's beat the living crap out of Dennis but heh!!!  When it's just us it's all A-OK 'cause beers are OK?.   Thanks Dr. Pamplin.  You dumb ASS!!!

Look.  I know I said weeks ago that I 'get' that people wanna hear Rocky the Flying Squirrel vent and expose his view of 'reality'...and I get that Rocky is thoroughly enjoying having his lazy, stupid, repulsive ass kissed here...BUT...

Enough is enough.  His book will only be published on rolls and I WILL then spend the rest of my life cleaning up after myself with it.  Not unlike reading the Sears and Roebuck catalogue in Billy Edd Wheeler's Little Brown Shack out back.

What a creep. >:D What a fool. ::)

Your crappy little story means nothing Rocklette.  Anyone who spends a penny on YOU is doing the world a disservice.  You want encouragement?  I herebye encourage you to take a long walk off a short dock.  Wear metal boots.

Fair enough.

Also with books due from Mike, Brian and now apparently Marilyn, I very much doubt Rocky's will ever see the light of day.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 10, 2016, 11:00:20 PM
Was Rocky working on another book as well, or does the following describe an actual published work?

"“Surfgate,” five years in the making, is a fictionalized account of a copyright ownership dispute that occurred between two high profile rock stars that led to a music publishing lawsuit."

Not published, not by Rocky: that's a Steve Love project.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on January 11, 2016, 06:27:43 AM
Just read a few of Rocky's posts relating to the Carl incident.

Rocky..(Dec17)
I then said...You know David... you asked if you could come in and talk to us for a few minutes...and all you've done for the last 90 minutes is tell us what we CAN and CAN'T do...I then picked up the phone and said...why don't I call Marilyn and ask her what she thinks about your employee procuring HEROINE....,,,for Dennis... and Dennis giving some of the Heroine to Brian!!! You can't just SWEEP this HEROINE under the carpet...David! When Carl once again blurts out talk to someone else Rocky...F_ _ _ YOU!!!

If the above is correct, David Frost was the employer, not Carl (or The Beach Boys). This was a disagreement between employees. Also worth mentioning, Carl could have charged Rocky with assault while in Australia but chose not to.



He has said that he was hired by Stephen Love and that he answered to Marilyn Wilson and Stephen Love. I'm not clear if he was technically working for BRI (which would be troubling) or privately for Marilyn. I'm sure he was not employed by David Frost. David Frost had a contractual relationship with BRI to arrange and promote the tour. I think the "your employee procuring HEROINE" reference is to an employee of David Frost's (not Carl Wilson) procuring heroin for Dennis Wilson." I think Rocky believes that the money for that heroin came from Carl.

But, if this is a reply to me, my question is not "what is your judgment?" it is "why do you feel one ought not make judgments?"


No not directed at you Emily. Someone, or maybe more than one, mentioned the employee attacking their employer angle so just trying to understand who hired who back then.

Add Some. You bought up the fact  " he decides in his infinite wisdom to head out and go drinking beers with Brian?" Are you meaning in an alcoholic context? Brian still drinks I believe. See the RS story 'Fragile Reunion' 2012. Mike is telling him to have another beer (Lite from memory) as its a day off from the tour.
I brought it up. I am not wrong about that. My understanding is that he was hired by Steve Love, who was hired by the Beach Boys.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 11, 2016, 12:14:30 PM
 :)     To Empire of Love,   You are the most intuitive poster on this blog. You some how manage not to get sidetracked or caught up in all the minutia so many of the other posters seem to enjoy entertaining themselves with such as did the massive amounts of drugs Brian was doing cause some of his mental problems or was it just a pre consisting condition? How about... Yes, there was mental illness in the Wilson family and I think it's safe to say that massive amounts of drugs such as L.S.D, Cocaine and Heroin would only have exacerbated the problem! Can we all agree on that... and forego the ongoing amateur diagnosis being played out here... since... like... page 10? And your right Empire of Love (where did you get this icon... considering you don't sound like a Mike Love "FAN"?)  I too find it fascinating, in the court case of songwriting credits, the claims Mike Love made! I also commend you on your astute observation that Brian was clearly someone who was not able to defend himself and was in a constant state of "I don't give a damn mode"and "Don't feel like fighting"! And further to the point the ruthless attorneys, as you refer to them, and the delusional Mile Love most certainly took advantage of Brian who was content to "just let it happen" to him! To highlight and illustrate this aspect I would like to point out that Brian was not even present in the court room in a case about his song writing royalty credits, 50% of the time! Let me also point out that Mike absolutely knew that Brian would only show up in court when "his" lawyers absolutely insisted he be present! More to the point of Brian not caring and "just letting it happen" as you also stated (Empire of Love) to an attorney this is like a wet dream. The person being sued for 5 million dollars, over an antiquated 50%-50% Publishing Contract arranged when they were teenagers, doesn't even show up to protect his interest half of the time! Mike and these attorneys were salivating like sharks in the blood infested waters of the Titanic! Brian is so mentally impaired that he is UNCONCERNED with such mundane things as MONEY! It was Brian's attorneys who convinced him to file that Law Suit. Let us not forget that Brian was unconcerned that his Dad had sold his publishing catalogue, for a mere $750,000, of which Brian did not receive a penny from when Brian finally fired him for his constant negative interference and dissension. A catalogue that is estimated at having garnered $30 million for the lucky guy who bought Brian's music under Murry's publishing company "Sea of Tunes"!!! To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"? :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 11, 2016, 12:30:24 PM
In the interests of accuracy...

The person being sued for 5 million dollars, over an antiquated 50%-50% Publishing Contract arranged when they were teenagers, doesn't even show up to protect his interest! Mike and these attorneys were salivating like sharks in the blood infested waters of the Titanic!

Mike was originally willing to settle for $750,000 and restored credits. Brian's advisors said no, see you in court. That cost him pretty much all the $10,000,000 he got in the previous settlement.  I understand that Brian rightly later sued these people.

Quote
Let us not forget that Brian didn't even remember that his Dad sold his publishing catalogue, for a mere $750,000, when Brian finally fired him for his constant negative interference and dissension.

Murry was fired in early April 1964. He sold Sea Of Tunes behind Brian's back in November 1969.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 11, 2016, 01:02:00 PM
     To Empire of Love,   You are the most intuitive poster on this blog. You some how manage not to get sidetracked or caught up in all the minutia so many of the other posters seem to enjoy entertaining themselves with such as did the massive amounts of drugs Brian was doing cause some of his mental problems or was it just a pre consisting condition? How about... Yes, there was mental illness in the Wilson family and I think it's safe to say that massive amounts of drugs such as L.S.D, Cocaine and Heroin would only have exacerbated the problem! Can we all agree on that... and forego the ongoing amateur diagnosis being played out here since... like... page 10? And your right Empire of Love (where did you get this icon... considering you don't sound like a Mike Love "FAN"?)  I too find it fascinating, in the court case of songwriting credits, the claims Mike Love made! I also commend you on your astute observation that Brian was clearly someone who was not able to defend himself and was in a constant state of "I don't give a damn mode" Don't feel like fighting! And further to the point the ruthless attorneys, and the delusional Mile Love, most certainly took advantage of Brian who was content to "just let it happen" to him! To highlight and illustrate this aspect I would like to point out that Brian was not even present in the court room, in a case about his song writing royalty credits, 50% of the time! Let me also point out that Mike absolutely knew that Brian would only show up in court when "his" lawyers absolutely insisted he be there! More to the point of Brian not caring and "just letting it happen" as you also stated(Empire of Love). To an attorney this is like a wet dream. The person being sued for 5 million dollars, over an antiquated 50%-50% Publishing Contract arranged when they were teenagers, doesn't even show up to protect his interest half the time! Mike and these attorneys were salivating like sharks in the blood infested waters of the Titanic! Brian is so mentally impaired that he is UNCONCERNED with such mundane things as MONEY! Let us not forget that Brian didn't even remember that his Dad sold his publishing catalogue, for a mere $750,000, when Brian finally fired him for his constant negative interference and dissension. A catalogue that is estimated at having garnered $30 million for the lucky guy who bought Brian's music under Murry's publishing company "Sea of Tunes"!!! To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!
Very interesting insight Rocky. You had hinted something about the testimony of the participants???


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 11, 2016, 01:10:28 PM
I think Rocky has opened a huge can of worms on the lawsuit shenanigans from Mike Love.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 11, 2016, 02:10:50 PM
 :)   Andrew G. Doe,   Murry did not sell "Sea of Tunes" behind Brian's back! Brian and all the Beach Boys signed a waiver authorizing the Sale...  Stephen Love personally collected the waivers from the principals. There was the contention that Murry may have forged Brian's signature at some point in the discourse of the case by Brian's attorney Jim Tierney... but it simply "was not" true! What is shockingly true is that Brian did not receive any of the monies received from that sale. Murry stiffed him... taking all the $700,000 for himself...(not $750,000 as previously stated) Murry thought he had it coming for all he had done for the Beach Boys...which was to berate and browbeat them into thinking he was instrumental in their success! It's a well known fact that it broke Brian's heart to fire his Dad... as it also broke his heart that Murry used to tell him his songs were no good and that he would never amount to anything! :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 11, 2016, 02:29:00 PM
That's very interesting. I think Murry's importance and stature will rise a bit in the fullness of time.
We'll see.

  Andrew G. Doe,   Murry did not sell "Sea of Tunes" behind Brian's back! Brian and all the Beach Boys signed a waiver authorizing the Sale...  Stephen Love personally collected the waivers from the principals. There was the contention that Murry may have forged Brian's signature... at some point in the discourse... but it simply "was not" true!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: adamghost on January 11, 2016, 02:44:09 PM
Interesting where the thread has gone.  

With respect to Emily's and others' concerns about judging and taking sides - and I mean no disrespect nor hostility, but I think people are tending to bring their own baggage into the discussion and that becomes the prisms through which some peoples' posts are seen.  

Emily, your response to what I posted was to take X and say "so does that mean Y (extreme perceived extension of X)?"  It's a common slippery slope kind of a thing that comes up when people have differing perspective, but my answer to that, without getting into it, is of course I didn't mean Y, and Y doesn't by definition follow X, and I know you're smart and intuitive enough to get that without me really getting into a debate about it.  

I don't mean this critically.  I get where you're coming from, and respect it.  I just mean you, and others (I don't mean to single you out, this is directed at a few people here), aren't really following where some of us are coming from - that just because we don't need to jump all over someone or make a moral judgment or take a broader view of things, that we necessarily approve of it or (as other posters have said) are "kissing ass" or "taking sides."  My way is always to reserve judgment, because usually more information changes the picture.  It doesn't mean I don't have a private opinion.  I just don't adopt that opinion as an absolute truth.  

I've had the experience of having people completely question my motives and slag me all over the internet without a full understanding of the realities I was facing or the totality of the situation.  It makes me very wary of doing the same to others, at least without a very full understanding of context.  It's not the same as giving them a pass or supporting it.  It's not fair to characterize in that way.  I may have, as I said, provisional opinions that I don't say out loud.

There is also something to be said for giving people enough rope. 

Now, total pivot:

I think Mr. Pamplin's current vehemently anti-Mike stance is interesting because I in fact have personally run into Mr. Pamplin once.  The occasion was a show in December 1994 when I was onstage and I said some things about the ongoing Mike Love lawsuit that could be perceived as negative (I was a fiery young buck in those days).  My memory of the incident is that when I got offstage I was accosted by Mr. Pamplin who challenged me about this.  

I don't want to make more of the meeting than it was; though Mr. Pamplin at first came across as aggressive, once a conversation ensued it was pleasant enough.  What's interesting is that at that time my perception of what Mr. Pamplin was saying, and the basis of the challenge to me, was that he supported what Mike Love was doing in the lawsuit.  

Peoples' opinions can certainly change in 22 years, as mine certainly have.  It's just an interesting evolution.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 11, 2016, 02:51:18 PM
  Andrew G. Doe,   Murry did not sell "Sea of Tunes" behind Brian's back! Brian and all the Beach Boys signed a waiver authorizing the Sale...  Stephen Love personally collected the waivers from the principals. There was the contention that Murry may have forged Brian's signature... at some point in the discourse by Brian's attorney Jim Tierney... but it simply "was not" true!

If the sale was thus "authorised", then why did Brian instigate a lawsuit to have it reversed, and how did Brian win an out of court settlement of $10 million with Irving Almo in 1992 ?

According to the Steve Gaines book, Murry cut the deal first and then told Brian. The rest of the band were equally distraught as then manager Nick Grillo was setting up a deal with Filmways that would enable the band to retain 50% of the publishing in perpetuity, and the entire publishing would revert to them once the original outlay was recouped. The reason I make this point at some length is that Gaines' prime source for this sort of detail was, as I'm sure you're aware, Steve Love. And there's no mention of anything you're claiming.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Custom Machine on January 11, 2016, 02:52:11 PM
  Andrew G. Doe,   Murry did not sell "Sea of Tunes" behind Brian's back! Brian and all the Beach Boys signed a waiver authorizing the Sale...  Stephen Love personally collected the waivers from the principals. There was the contention that Murry may have forged Brian's signature... at some point in the discourse by Brian's attorney Jim Tierney... but it simply "was not" true!

Well, this is certainly fascinating news, if correct. Steve Love would have been around 22 years of age in November 1969, and Debbie K tells us he was interning under Nick Grillo at the Ivar office during 69-70, so the timeline fits. But other than that, every other account of which I am aware has Murry selling Sea of Tunes without Brian's prior knowledge. Those accounts of the sale give the impression that only Brian's signature was needed, along with Murry's, for the sale.

Edit: Posted this prior to seeing Andrew's post above.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Manning on January 11, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
So if Steve Love did indeed collect those signatures on Murry's behalf, while he was Grillo's intern, then he was actively involved in undermining the deal his boss was putting in place on the BBs' behalf. Surely there's no way he would't have known about it if he worked that closely with Steve Love?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 11, 2016, 03:03:00 PM


Emily, your response to what I posted was to take X and say "so does that mean Y (extreme perceived extension of X)?"  It's a common slippery slope kind of a thing that comes up when people have differing perspective, but my answer to that, without getting into it, is of course I didn't mean Y, and Y doesn't by definition follow X, and I know you're smart and intuitive enough to get that without me really getting into a debate about it.  

 I just mean you, and others (I don't mean to single you out, this is directed at a few people here), aren't really following where some of us are coming from - that just because we don't need to jump all over someone or make a moral judgment or take a broader view of things, that we necessarily approve of it or (as other posters have said) are "kissing ass" or "taking sides."  My way is always to reserve judgment, because usually more information changes the picture.  It doesn't mean I don't have a private opinion.  I just don't adopt that opinion as an absolute truth.  

 I may have, as I said, provisional opinions that I don't say out loud.

There is also something to be said for giving people enough rope.  


Hi Adamghost, I have a lot of respect for your perspective and hope you don't take what I say otherwise. I want to clarify a few things:
-First, in respect to my response to your post: while it may have sounded facetious, and I think I worded it blithely which I shouldn't have done, what I meant to question is where's your line? When do you have enough information to make a judgment? I know you don't think Y but where does X stop and Y begin?
-Second, I'm distinguishing those who refrain from stating their judgment, if they have one, and those who are actively stating that they can not or should not judge. I don't question the former at all. I am questioning the assertion of the latter.
-Third, I guess the word 'judgment' is problematic. One of its meanings is, from Merriam-Webster, "the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing" or "an opinion or estimate so formed;" to 'judge': "to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises"

To me what you call a "private opinion," if it's carefully thought out, is a judgment. So maybe it's a semantic problem.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 11, 2016, 03:11:25 PM
  Andrew G. Doe,   Murry did not sell "Sea of Tunes" behind Brian's back! Brian and all the Beach Boys signed a waiver authorizing the Sale...  Stephen Love personally collected the waivers from the principals. There was the contention that Murry may have forged Brian's signature... at some point in the discourse by Brian's attorney Jim Tierney... but it simply "was not" true!

Well, this is certainly fascinating news, if correct. Steve Love would have been around 22 years of age in November 1969, and Debbie K tells us he was interning under Nick Grillo at the Ivar office during 69-70, so the timeline fits. But other than that, every other account of which I am aware has Murry selling Sea of Tunes without Brian's prior knowledge. Those accounts of the sale give the impression that only Brian's signature was needed, along with Murry's, for the sale.

Edit: Posted this prior to seeing Andrew's post above.  


In the thread at this link, GF2002 reports that Steve Love brought papers to Brian Wilson to sign. There's a lot of further discussion about what happened with probably all the detail that's publicly available.

eta: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22890.0.html


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 11, 2016, 03:21:24 PM
Fascinating stuff.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: adamghost on January 11, 2016, 03:29:08 PM


Emily, your response to what I posted was to take X and say "so does that mean Y (extreme perceived extension of X)?"  It's a common slippery slope kind of a thing that comes up when people have differing perspective, but my answer to that, without getting into it, is of course I didn't mean Y, and Y doesn't by definition follow X, and I know you're smart and intuitive enough to get that without me really getting into a debate about it.  

 I just mean you, and others (I don't mean to single you out, this is directed at a few people here), aren't really following where some of us are coming from - that just because we don't need to jump all over someone or make a moral judgment or take a broader view of things, that we necessarily approve of it or (as other posters have said) are "kissing ass" or "taking sides."  My way is always to reserve judgment, because usually more information changes the picture.  It doesn't mean I don't have a private opinion.  I just don't adopt that opinion as an absolute truth.  

 I may have, as I said, provisional opinions that I don't say out loud.

There is also something to be said for giving people enough rope. 


Hi Adamghost, I have a lot of respect for your perspective and hope you don't take what I say otherwise. I want to clarify a few things:
-First, in respect to my response to your post: while it may have sounded facetious, and I think I worded it blithely which I shouldn't have done, what I meant to question is where's your line? Where do you have enough information to make a judgment? I know you don't think Y but where does X stop and Y begin?
-Second, I'm distinguishing those who refrain from stating their judgment, if they have one, and those who are actively stating that they can not or should not judge. I don't question the former at all. I am questioning the assertion of the latter.
-Third, I guess the word 'judgment' is problematic. One of its meanings is, from Merriam-Webster, "the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing" or "an opinion or estimate so formed;" to 'judge': "to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises"

To me what you call a "private opinion," if it's carefully thought out, is a judgment. So maybe it's a semantic problem.


Thanks, Emily, and again I want to stress that I wasn't posting merely to you, I didn't mean to single you out.

In terms of judgment, you ask a good question.  My answer would tend to be, in general:  am I making a judgment based on first-hand observation, or on second or third-hand observation absent an understanding of the circumstances?  If someone is acting out right in front of me, and I'm a witness to it, or they are testifying for themselves, then I'm much more likely to make a firm judgment.  So in terms of Rocky, I give much greater weight to what he offers voluntarily in terms of evaluating the guy.

I also think context is a much bigger deal to me than it may be to you.  I don't think it makes as much difference to you that the world these people functioned in was in every way toxic, because right is right and wrong is wrong, as it does to me.  I don't see it that way simply because I've seen the degree to which societal pressures warp even good people into bad behavior, or it might be less inflammatory to say how an understanding of right and wrong can shift depending on what's going on around you.  

Last year I had the pleasure of visiting, in quick succession, Sweden and the Philippines.  Two more different social structures would be very difficult to imagine, and what would be OK in one place would be unworkable in the other and vice versa.  To be clear, I am not advocating moral relativism because there are certain absolutes you would bring into either environment - which are based around the non-relative credo of not wilfully hurting or abusing other people - but to come into one environment and judge it 100% by our own moral experience and training is to ignore the societal dictates that the people that live in those places are comfortable with and that has evolved in ways that work for them.  Bringing that absolute judgment into any situation is also a way to tell ourselves that we would in fact not be affected by our environment, that we are not products of our set of biases, when that's in fact not true and doesn't help us to understand those pressures better.  Our moral compass requires that we are true to our own values - not that we enforce them on others.

So to dial it back, in terms of Rocky's punching Carl in the face, is that right?  No, it's not.  However:  in a toxic environment where everybody is crazy, someone who is a young man with some anger issues in a mindset (in its own way like yours) of moral outrage, could easily feel morally justified in taking such an action.  So while I agree the action is wrong, to take it on its own without understanding that someone is living with a crazy funhouse world that is going to enable their anger as opposed to diffuse it, is to really wilfully take oneself out of the sticky business of putting oneself in the shoes of someone that one doesn't like.

To me, it's a cop out to just point a finger and say "that's wrong."  That's not a judgment of you.  I'm just explaining why I wouldn't do it.  It's an easy position to take because I'm asserting it from the comfort of a reasonably secure, sane and unpressured environment that is not bringing out the worst in me.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 11, 2016, 03:44:18 PM

Thanks, Emily, and again I want to stress that I wasn't posting merely to you, I didn't mean to single you out.

In terms of judgment, you ask a good question.  My answer would tend to be, in general:  am I making a judgment based on first-hand observation, or on second or third-hand observation absent an understanding of the circumstances?  If someone is acting out right in front of me, and I'm a witness to it, or they are testifying for themselves, then I'm much more likely to make a firm judgment.  So in terms of Rocky, I give much greater weight to what he offers voluntarily in terms of evaluating the guy.

I also think context is a much bigger deal to me than it may be to you.  I don't think it makes as much difference to you that the world these people functioned in was in every way toxic, because right is right and wrong is wrong, as it does to me.  I don't see it that way simply because I've seen the degree to which societal pressures warp even good people into bad behavior, or it might be less inflammatory to say how an understanding of right and wrong can shift depending on what's going on around you.  

Last year I had the pleasure of visiting, in quick succession, Sweden and the Philippines.  Two more different social structures would be very difficult to imagine, and what would be OK in one place would be unworkable in the other and vice versa.  To be clear, I am not advocating moral relativism because there are certain absolutes you would bring into either environment - which are based around the non-relative credo of not wilfully hurting or abusing other people - but to come into one environment and judge it 100% by our own moral experience and training is to ignore the societal dictates that the people that live in those places are comfortable with and that has evolved in ways that work for them.  Bringing that absolute judgment into any situation is also a way to tell ourselves that we would in fact not be affected by our environment, that we are not products of our set of biases, when that's in fact not true and doesn't help us to understand those pressures better.  Our moral compass requires that we are true to our own values - not that we enforce them on others.

So to dial it back, in terms of Rocky's punching Carl in the face, is that right?  No, it's not.  However:  in a toxic environment where everybody is crazy, someone who is a young man with some anger issues in a mindset (in its own way like yours) of moral outrage, could easily feel morally justified in taking such an action.  So while I agree the action is wrong, to take it on its own without understanding that someone is living with a crazy funhouse world that is going to enable their anger as opposed to diffuse it, is to really wilfully take oneself out of the sticky business of putting oneself in the shoes of someone that one doesn't like.

To me, it's a cop out to just point a finger and say "that's wrong."  That's not a judgment of you.  I'm just explaining why I wouldn't do it.  It's an easy position to take because I'm asserting it from the comfort of a reasonably secure, sane and unpressured environment that is not bringing out the worst in me.

"non-relative credo of not wilfully hurting or abusing other people" This is about the extent of my moral code, with ideas of what one owes to one's dependents.
Again, I'm not saying one should point a finger and say "that's wrong," I'm saying what's wrong with thinking "that's wrong?" When I hear someone saying that they shouldn't make a judgment, I hear them saying they shouldn't form an opinion which, semantically, is not incorrect but is perhaps not what they mean. I'm not sure.
The way I'm using the word 'judgment', this
So to dial it back, in terms of Rocky's punching Carl in the face, is that right?  No, it's not.
is a judgment. I think perhaps from the beginning, I misunderstood other posters' use of the word, and they misunderstood mine, so there's been miscommunication.

Regarding the toxic situation, yes it was, and part of what I'm trying to learn here is what made it so toxic. My 'judgment' from what I've heard, is that the hiring of Mr Pamplin was one of the contributors.
 ETA: But, I want to be clear. When I say 'judgment' I don't mean condemnation. I don't mean I think he was born evil and is a sinner and should burn in hell. And I don't even mean that in the same circumstances I wouldn't've done the same thing. I mean, simply, my opinion is that what he did was wrong and he shouldn't have done it.

Thanks very much for your response.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: adamghost on January 11, 2016, 03:54:40 PM
<<When I hear someone saying that they shouldn't make a judgment, I hear them saying they shouldn't form an opinion which, semantically, is not incorrect but is perhaps not what they mean. I'm not sure.>>

I hear you.  Well, I keep using the word "provisional."  I certainly have an opinion of this or any situation.  I'm actually a pretty judgy guy, which is why I try to build this questioning in to my mindset as a safeguard to that.  "Judgment" to me by its nature implies finality, which is to say that one has reached a conclusion that is more or less unshakable.  Big difference in my own mind in those terms, because one implies a willingness to alter one's evaluation of a person or circumstance based on a fuller understanding (and with it self-reflection, by which we grow and understand ourselves better), and the other doesn't.  Again, not a criticism, just zeroing in on the semantic question you are asking.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 11, 2016, 04:02:26 PM
<<When I hear someone saying that they shouldn't make a judgment, I hear them saying they shouldn't form an opinion which, semantically, is not incorrect but is perhaps not what they mean. I'm not sure.>>

I hear you.  Well, I keep using the word "provisional."  I certainly have an opinion of this or any situation.  I'm actually a pretty judgy guy, which is why I try to build this questioning in to my mindset as a safeguard to that.  "Judgment" to me by its nature implies finality, which is to say that one has reached a conclusion that is more or less unshakable.  Big difference in my own mind in those terms, because one implies a willingness to alter one's evaluation of a person or circumstance based on a fuller understanding (and with it self-reflection, by which we grow and understand ourselves better), and the other doesn't.  Again, not a criticism, just zeroing in on the semantic question you are asking.
I wish I could "like" your post without adding a new one. I respect, and appreciate the importance of, keeping your mind open to new information so one's opinion/judgment and self-understanding can shift and improve. I was not considering finality to be an aspect of 'judgments' because I long ago accepted that very little is final, and certainly not opinions. So I did not mean to include that connotation.
If you have a chance, please read my edit to my last post.
Thanks for humoring me!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 11, 2016, 04:04:25 PM
I wasn't raised in a religion and I'm wondering if that affects how I perceive "judgment" compared to others' perceptions. To me, there's not really any such thing as a final judgment.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 11, 2016, 04:10:55 PM
Unfortunately its probably a male type territorial thing Emily. A dude I met got locked up in a holding cell for a night many years ago with several others. A big guy came over and tried to intimidate him. He said he had 2 choices. Hit the guy or be his b!tch. He hit the guy, got a hiding but was left alone after that by everyone.

Rightly or wrongly Carl did something similar to Rocky and Carl probably knew a ex pro football player could give him a slap in return.  

End of the day, violence while on tour has been around for years. Charlie Watts even socked Mick Jagger and they probably have got on great since because of it.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/people/42043/day-charlie-watts-punched-mick-jagger-face

Sometimes it is just plain evil though. Check out the Bill Graham/ Led Zeppelin story. I have just read 'Bill Graham Presents' and Zeps manager Peter Grant was a piece of work (and I am being kind)

http://www.led-zeppelin.org/led-zeppelin-in-the-media/94-1977-tour-ends-in-tragedy


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 11, 2016, 04:22:17 PM
Unfortunately its probably a male type territorial thing Emily. A dude I met got locked up in a holding cell for a night many years ago with several others. A big guy came over and tried to intimidate him. He said he had 2 choices. Hit the guy or be his b!tch. He hit the guy, got a hiding but was left alone after that by everyone.

Rightly or wrongly Carl did something similar to Rocky and Carl probably knew a ex pro football player could give him a slap in return.  

End of the day, violence while on tour has been around for years. Charlie Watts even socked Mick Jagger and they probably have got on great since because of it.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/people/42043/day-charlie-watts-punched-mick-jagger-face

Sometimes it is just plain evil though. Check out the Bill Graham/ Led Zeppelin story. I have just read 'Bill Graham Presents' and Zeps manager Peter Grant was a piece of work (and I am being kind)

http://www.led-zeppelin.org/led-zeppelin-in-the-media/94-1977-tour-ends-in-tragedy
Wow. Those are some stories. Yikes.
I think I'm really not communicating my thoughts on this well.

ETA: I have a strong opinion on what Rocky Pamplin is saying, but I'm not questioning other people's opinions (well, I have done so and I don't think it's an unreasonable topic but it wasn't the topic I meant to raise that led to this kerfluffle). It seemed to me that others were saying that it's not right to have an opinion, and maybe I misread that. But I was trying to ask, why can't one have an opinion? What's wrong with that? For instance, is it wrong for me to read the Led Zeppelin link above and think "that's f'ed up" and to think that some of the people involved were behaving badly?

And, I'm not asking that question again. I can see that I stepped into a mine-field and I'm sorry for it.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: adamghost on January 11, 2016, 06:19:55 PM
Unfortunately its probably a male type territorial thing Emily. A dude I met got locked up in a holding cell for a night many years ago with several others. A big guy came over and tried to intimidate him. He said he had 2 choices. Hit the guy or be his b!tch. He hit the guy, got a hiding but was left alone after that by everyone.

Rightly or wrongly Carl did something similar to Rocky and Carl probably knew a ex pro football player could give him a slap in return.  

End of the day, violence while on tour has been around for years. Charlie Watts even socked Mick Jagger and they probably have got on great since because of it.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/people/42043/day-charlie-watts-punched-mick-jagger-face

Sometimes it is just plain evil though. Check out the Bill Graham/ Led Zeppelin story. I have just read 'Bill Graham Presents' and Zeps manager Peter Grant was a piece of work (and I am being kind)

http://www.led-zeppelin.org/led-zeppelin-in-the-media/94-1977-tour-ends-in-tragedy
Wow. Those are some stories. Yikes.
I think I'm really not communicating my thoughts on this well.

ETA: I have a strong opinion on what Rocky Pamplin is saying, but I'm not questioning other people's opinions (well, I have done so and I don't think it's an unreasonable topic but it wasn't the topic I meant to raise that led to this kerfluffle). It seemed to me that others were saying that it's not right to have an opinion, and maybe I misread that. But I was trying to ask, why can't one have an opinion? What's wrong with that? For instance, is it wrong for me to read the Led Zeppelin link above and think "that's f'ed up" and to think that some of the people involved were behaving badly?

And, I'm not asking that question again. I can see that I stepped into a mine-field and I'm sorry for it.

I think anybody who doesn't have an opinion about something hasn't thought about it much!  

Much as I love the music, I'm glad I didn't have to function as a person in the music world of the '60s and '70s.  At the point I got into it (mid '80s) it was just becoming acceptable for the first time since the mid '60s to be a non-drug user in a rock band.  That's how embedded in the culture it was; if you did not at least smoke pot you were distrusted and you weren't going to be able to "hang" in a band.

I did read your edit, and enjoyed it!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Don Malcolm on January 12, 2016, 02:25:44 AM
Adam, I do think you are on the money in terms of the prevailing "mindset" that existed in the rock scene from roughly 1967-80. As someone who worked around the fringes of the media (long story, not worth the space here...!) during that time, I can tell you that the aura of the "rock lifestyle" was omnipresent and musicians who eschewed that found it extremely difficult to be given props in the press. Let's recall how much derision was thrown in the faces of groups like the Carpenters, who had the temerity to be "squeaky clean" (though Richard did wind up with a serious quaalude addiction once the band stopped having hits, and we all know what happened to poor Karen).

That said, there's no way that what Rocky did was "right." It's never "right" to resort to violence unless your life is at stake. I'm sure Rocky felt justified by what was going down in what must have been a really screwed-up (read: vintage late 70s Beach Boys) situation, and he was, from what I've read, on the "right" side of the issues involved. He should acknowledge that, I think, and we should grant him forgiveness for being put into a situation where he may have been compelled to act badly in defense of what he thought was right. We have all been in situations like that in our lives, and almost all of us have regrets for how we behaved in those situations. It does not make us bad people, it just makes us human.

I'm glad to see Rocky here, and I am glad that the response to him has been so much more level-headed than was the case in earlier situations when the individual with actual historical connection to the band was at least as "controversial." That's the sign that this board is evolving into a place where the quest for truth and historical accuracy can itself suspend judgment long enough to get down into the messiness of the facts in a way that can prove useful and illuminating.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on January 12, 2016, 04:04:13 AM
To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!

Mike's claim is based on him writing lyrics, not music. And, as Andrew pointed out, he was willing to settle for far less than 50%. Brian was reportedly agreeable to that, but got talked out of it by his attorneys.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on January 12, 2016, 04:06:19 AM
Murry stiffed him... taking all the $750,000 for himself... thought he had it coming for all he had done for the Beach Boys...

Not that dissimilar to what Steve Love is accused of doing...


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 12, 2016, 10:15:14 AM
 :)    Gerry,   Just a few words in regards to Landy. He was hired and fired, the first time, before I came on the scene. He was initially hired at $5,000.00 a month and proceeded to increase his Beverly Hills salary until he was charging Marilyn $20,000.00 a month! It was at that point when Stephen and Marilynn decided to fire the over reaching Landy "Dr. to the STARS"! Landy didn't even have an office at that time,as he claimed to have in Beverly  HILLS, he used to make house calls... which was fine by Brian... he didn't even have to leave his house for "treatment"... didn't even have to put on shoes! Marilyn delegated this responsibility to Stephen saying "Landy didn't even have the good sense to bring the bagels... at $20,000.00 a month! Marilyn handled all the expenses as well as making all decisions. She even voted for Brian in all Beach Boy related matters, which was the accepted practice, because Brian was "so out of it"! Brian simply didn't care... about anything except cigarettes, food, drugs and hibernating in bed. He couldn't be bothered! And if anyone tried to get him to participate in anything it was futile...a complete waste of time. No one could even get an "opinion" out of Brian! If one of the Beach Boys, or especially a Lawyer, persisted to wrangle an answer out of him he would let go with a resounding BELLY LAUGH, and a demented look in his eyes for them... like... are you nuts! SAD BUT TRUE! "WIPEOUT" is a down and dirty story of the TRUTH... about the Beach Boys! If you want a fairy tale... there's Alice and Wonderland! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on January 12, 2016, 10:35:28 AM
You know, for somebody who supposedly loved Brian and tried to get him off drugs and kept from a mental institution, you sure as hell love to bad mouth him.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 12, 2016, 12:20:30 PM
   Gerry,   Just a few words in regards to Landy. He was hired and fired, the first time, before I came on the scene. He was initially hired at $5,000.00 a month and proceeded to increase his Beverly Hills salary until he was charging Marilyn $20,000.00 a month! It was at that point when Stephen and Marilynn decided to fire the over reaching Landy "Dr. to the STARS"! Landy didn't even have an office at that time,as he claimed to have in Beverly  HILLS, he used to make house calls... which was fine by Brian... he didn't even have to leave his house for "treatment"... didn't even have to put on shoes! Marilyn delegated this responsibility to Stephen saying "Landy didn't even have the good sense to bring the bagels... at $20,000.00 a month! Marilyn handled all the expenses as well as making all decisions. She even voted for Brian in all Beach Boy related matters, which was the accepted practice, because Brian was "so out of it"!
Rocky, you may not know the answer to this, but was Marilyn Wilson paying for Landy, and subsequently for you and Stan, out of her and Brian's personal finances or were you and he paid out of BRI finances? It sounds like Stephen Love was involved in some of the decisions. Was that partially due to his role as the Beach Boys' manager?

Brian simply didn't care... about anything except cigarettes, food, drugs and hibernating in bed. He couldn't be bothered! And if anyone tried to get him to participate in anything it was futile...a complete waste of time. No one could even get an "opinion" out of Brian! If one of the Beach Boys, or especially a Lawyer, persisted to wrangle an answer out of him he would let go with a resounding BELLY LAUGH, and a demented look in his eyes for them... like... are you nuts! SAD BUT TRUE! "WIPEOUT" is a down and dirty story of the TRUTH... about the Beach Boys! If you want a fairy tale... there's Alice and Wonderland!                                                          

Given his lack of interest and it sounds like disdain for what was going on around him, did anyone float the idea of giving him a break from Los Angeles and the music industry for a bit? Maybe leaving Los Angeles with his family for a few years and focusing on getting well without the pressures he seemed to relentlessly face in LA?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: John Malone on January 12, 2016, 12:26:15 PM
    or was it just a pre consisting condition?

Is this the academic level of the writing we can expect in Wipeout?

Also, still waiting on the explanation for Young and the Restless. Why no credit at Internet Movie Database?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Empire Of Love on January 12, 2016, 08:24:12 PM
To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!

Mike's claim is based on him writing lyrics, not music. And, as Andrew pointed out, he was willing to settle for far less than 50%. Brian was reportedly agreeable to that, but got talked out of it by his attorneys.

Which raises an interesting question as to whether Mike initially asked for only 750k because he thought that is all he deserved...and later became greedy and took advantage of Brian's condition, or did he feel he was owed what he eventually won and initially asked for so little out of the kindness of his heart?

His initial request for only 750k could be very telling either way.

EoL


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on January 12, 2016, 08:29:49 PM
To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!

Mike's claim is based on him writing lyrics, not music. And, as Andrew pointed out, he was willing to settle for far less than 50%. Brian was reportedly agreeable to that, but got talked out of it by his attorneys.

Which raises an interesting question as to whether Mike initially asked for only 750k because he thought that is all he deserved...and later became greedy and took advantage of Brian's condition, or did he feel he was owed what he eventually won and initially asked for so little out of the kindness of his heart?

His initial request for only 750k could be very telling either way.

EoL

And, I believe it was based on Mike's understanding that helping Brian in the A&M lawsuit would rectify things regarding credit and royalties for "California Girls". In other words, if Mike's co-authorship of that one song had been established, and the previous non-recognition of it righted, perhaps he wouldn't have even sued in the first place.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 12, 2016, 08:37:41 PM
To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!

Mike's claim is based on him writing lyrics, not music. And, as Andrew pointed out, he was willing to settle for far less than 50%. Brian was reportedly agreeable to that, but got talked out of it by his attorneys.

Which raises an interesting question as to whether Mike initially asked for only 750k because he thought that is all he deserved...and later became greedy and took advantage of Brian's condition, or did he feel he was owed what he eventually won and initially asked for so little out of the kindness of his heart?

His initial request for only 750k could be very telling either way.

EoL
My guess is that the 750,000 was a bit less than an on-the-money offer in hopes of avoiding case costs. When it was turned down, I'm guessing the much higher amount for the lawsuit was set, first in hopes of the other side backing down and settling, second to enter with an overestimate expecting it to be whittled down, thus the things like 409 and WIBN. To Mike Love's benefit, Brian Wilson, the main witness opposite Mike Love, refused to defend himself. So Mike Love got to keep the rightful winnings as well as the bargaining chips. Leaving us still with a very unclear picture of who actually wrote what.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 12, 2016, 08:39:18 PM
To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!

Mike's claim is based on him writing lyrics, not music. And, as Andrew pointed out, he was willing to settle for far less than 50%. Brian was reportedly agreeable to that, but got talked out of it by his attorneys.

Which raises an interesting question as to whether Mike initially asked for only 750k because he thought that is all he deserved...and later became greedy and took advantage of Brian's condition, or did he feel he was owed what he eventually won and initially asked for so little out of the kindness of his heart?

His initial request for only 750k could be very telling either way.

EoL

And, I believe it was based on Mike's understanding that helping Brian in the A&M lawsuit would rectify things regarding credit and royalties for "California Girls". In other words, if Mike's co-authorship of that one song had been established, and the previous non-recognition of it righted, perhaps he wouldn't have even sued in the first place.
As far as you know, was this requested of BW and flat-out refused?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 12, 2016, 08:41:58 PM
Very interesting read which has been around for years but may be new for some.

http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/lovevwilson1.html

With regard to California Girls. Mention is made in one of the chapters that the David Lee Roth version made $500k in royalties. Did Mike know that when he made the $750k offer? Surely if he did then his offer was exceedingly generous. If Brian's team knew then they we're exceedingly stupid, and rightfully deserved being sued later.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 12, 2016, 08:47:36 PM
Very interesting read which has been around for years but may be new for some.

http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/lovevwilson1.html

With regard to California Girls. Mention is made in one of the chapters that the David Lee Roth version made $500k in royalties. Did Mike know that when he made the $750k offer? Surely if he did then his offer was exceedingly generous. If Brian's team knew then they we're exceedingly stupid, and rightfully deserved being sued later.
Brian's attorneys certainly gave him awful advice. He sued them later.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: “Big Daddy” on January 12, 2016, 08:53:52 PM
Also, still waiting on the explanation for Young and the Restless. Why no credit at Internet Movie Database?

A role doesn’t necessarily have to be credited.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on January 12, 2016, 09:00:39 PM
To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!

Mike's claim is based on him writing lyrics, not music. And, as Andrew pointed out, he was willing to settle for far less than 50%. Brian was reportedly agreeable to that, but got talked out of it by his attorneys.

Which raises an interesting question as to whether Mike initially asked for only 750k because he thought that is all he deserved...and later became greedy and took advantage of Brian's condition, or did he feel he was owed what he eventually won and initially asked for so little out of the kindness of his heart?

His initial request for only 750k could be very telling either way.

EoL

And, I believe it was based on Mike's understanding that helping Brian in the A&M lawsuit would rectify things regarding credit and royalties for "California Girls". In other words, if Mike's co-authorship of that one song had been established, and the previous non-recognition of it righted, perhaps he wouldn't have even sued in the first place.
As far as you know, was this requested of BW and flat-out refused?

I don't think Brian refused Mike's help - I'm under the impression that Mike was deposed, or otherwise gave testimony, that enhanced Brian's case. And the expected payback for that - finally giving Mike credit and royalties for "California Girls", which I'm told had long been promised him - didn't happen. That's when the lawsuit was filed, with the offer of a settlement.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 12, 2016, 09:15:46 PM
To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!

Mike's claim is based on him writing lyrics, not music. And, as Andrew pointed out, he was willing to settle for far less than 50%. Brian was reportedly agreeable to that, but got talked out of it by his attorneys.

Which raises an interesting question as to whether Mike initially asked for only 750k because he thought that is all he deserved...and later became greedy and took advantage of Brian's condition, or did he feel he was owed what he eventually won and initially asked for so little out of the kindness of his heart?

His initial request for only 750k could be very telling either way.

EoL

And, I believe it was based on Mike's understanding that helping Brian in the A&M lawsuit would rectify things regarding credit and royalties for "California Girls". In other words, if Mike's co-authorship of that one song had been established, and the previous non-recognition of it righted, perhaps he wouldn't have even sued in the first place.
As far as you know, was this requested of BW and flat-out refused?

I don't think Brian refused Mike's help - I'm under the impression that Mike was deposed, or otherwise gave testimony, that enhanced Brian's case. And the expected payback for that - finally giving Mike credit and royalties for "California Girls", which I'm told had long been promised him - didn't happen. That's when the lawsuit was filed, with the offer of a settlement.
Sorry for being unclear - do we know that Brian Wilson personally refused to put Mike's name on California Girls, and give him the royalties, or was it from his lawyers that it was refused and how the lawyers got there and Brian Wilson's actual role is, as is usual during this period, shrouded?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 12, 2016, 11:16:55 PM
.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on January 13, 2016, 03:39:21 AM
To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!

Mike's claim is based on him writing lyrics, not music. And, as Andrew pointed out, he was willing to settle for far less than 50%. Brian was reportedly agreeable to that, but got talked out of it by his attorneys.

Which raises an interesting question as to whether Mike initially asked for only 750k because he thought that is all he deserved...and later became greedy and took advantage of Brian's condition, or did he feel he was owed what he eventually won and initially asked for so little out of the kindness of his heart?

His initial request for only 750k could be very telling either way.

EoL

And, I believe it was based on Mike's understanding that helping Brian in the A&M lawsuit would rectify things regarding credit and royalties for "California Girls". In other words, if Mike's co-authorship of that one song had been established, and the previous non-recognition of it righted, perhaps he wouldn't have even sued in the first place.
As far as you know, was this requested of BW and flat-out refused?

I don't think Brian refused Mike's help - I'm under the impression that Mike was deposed, or otherwise gave testimony, that enhanced Brian's case. And the expected payback for that - finally giving Mike credit and royalties for "California Girls", which I'm told had long been promised him - didn't happen. That's when the lawsuit was filed, with the offer of a settlement.
Sorry for being unclear - do we know that Brian Wilson personally refused to put Mike's name on California Girls, and give him the royalties, or was it from his lawyers that it was refused and how the lawyers got there and Brian Wilson's actual role is, as is usual during this period, shrouded?

I do not. I can only assume Brian was, as was so often the case, given bad advice. But the inaction left him open to the eventual lawsuit from Mike.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 13, 2016, 05:23:27 AM
One thing I love about Brian is that often has the direct honesty of a child. When asked directly in that trial if Mike wrote lyrics he basically admitted so.
I remember reading that there was a very dramatic moment where Brain was playing keyboard in the courtroom

"The next day proved to be an amazing one. Remember that some of the exhibits were large photo blowups and they hung around the courtroom. The most ominous one was that of Murray. 

Brian returned to the stand a few days later and was describing verses and choruses and bridges and Brian's lawyers asked if it would be alright if Brian could demonstrate and the judge agreed. A yamaha portable keyboard was given to Brian on the stand. NOW THIS IS WHAT I WAS WAITING FOR!!! There were more people in the gallery this day(maybe 8) than usual and you could just feel the excitement in the air. Brian had a cold, so he was having a bit of a hard time, but went on to do 409 and I Get Around. Everyone in the place was very excited including the jury. Brian explained what the elements of a song were and that sort of thing. It was just too cool. After this, Brian answered some more questions which turned out to be damaging testimony to his case."
http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/lovevwilson5.html (http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/lovevwilson5.html)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 13, 2016, 05:58:48 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 06:08:02 AM
One thing I love about Brian is that often has the direct honesty of a child. When asked directly in that trial if Mike wrote lyrics he basically admitted so.
I remember reading that there was a very dramatic moment where Brain was playing keyboard in the courtroom

"The next day proved to be an amazing one. Remember that some of the exhibits were large photo blowups and they hung around the courtroom. The most ominous one was that of Murray. 

Brian returned to the stand a few days later and was describing verses and choruses and bridges and Brian's lawyers asked if it would be alright if Brian could demonstrate and the judge agreed. A yamaha portable keyboard was given to Brian on the stand. NOW THIS IS WHAT I WAS WAITING FOR!!! There were more people in the gallery this day(maybe 8) than usual and you could just feel the excitement in the air. Brian had a cold, so he was having a bit of a hard time, but went on to do 409 and I Get Around. Everyone in the place was very excited including the jury. Brian explained what the elements of a song were and that sort of thing. It was just too cool. After this, Brian answered some more questions which turned out to be damaging testimony to his case."
http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/lovevwilson5.html (http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/lovevwilson5.html)
The demonstration at the keyboard was "testimony."

But in the next chapter..."I talked to Mr. Flynn (Atty. Mike Flynn) that day and asked him about...that Brian should go after his own lawyers.  He told me this was going to happen. He had also told me at that time (about 3 months after the trial was ended), that Mike and Brian had written about eight songs together." 

That surfermoon link is a good one.  ;)   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 13, 2016, 06:23:25 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.

Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 06:41:26 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.

Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/
Andrew - had those other lyricists come forward and filed a claim, at the time of the lawsuit, they might have been joined as well as parties in the suit, they could have become part of the award. 

That was a step that they might have taken with assistance of their own legal counsel.   ;)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 06:46:00 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Brian Wilson has never seemed greedy, but the man making many of his decisions at the time seems to have been.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 07:04:23 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Brian Wilson has never seemed greedy, but the man making many of his decisions at the time seems to have been.
Murry was not "available."

It was not Brian who made those decisions, apparently.  ;)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: HeyJude on January 13, 2016, 07:09:19 AM
I don't think Brian refused Mike's help - I'm under the impression that Mike was deposed, or otherwise gave testimony, that enhanced Brian's case. And the expected payback for that - finally giving Mike credit and royalties for "California Girls", which I'm told had long been promised him - didn't happen. That's when the lawsuit was filed, with the offer of a settlement.

I'm not saying anyone is saying anything to the contrary, but it's worth reiterating that when someone issued a subpoena for a deposition in a civil suit, they usually don't have the option of doing it or not doing it. There are plenty of stall tactics, and all sorts of accommodations can be made. But it's not as if Mike or anyone has the option of saying "Nah, I'm not going to show up for that deposition."

Separately, while a witness certainly shouldn't say they will alter their testimony one way or the other based on the person deposing them helping them or giving them any sort of consideration at a later date, I'm sure many such depositions have some implied back scratching involved.

If a witness that could help you is dragged in unwillingly, and/or you indicate you don't want to help them in some related matter at a later date, certainly there is the risk that that witness's memory may all of a sudden begin to fail them or that their "perspective" on matters may all of a sudden not be what everyone expected. But the witness also runs a risk, because one is under oath when testifying in a deposition.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 13, 2016, 07:12:07 AM
Yes what a dramatic scene. Wish I could have seen that day in court.
One thing I love about Brian is that often has the direct honesty of a child. When asked directly in that trial if Mike wrote lyrics he basically admitted so.
I remember reading that there was a very dramatic moment where Brain was playing keyboard in the courtroom

"The next day proved to be an amazing one. Remember that some of the exhibits were large photo blowups and they hung around the courtroom. The most ominous one was that of Murray. 

Brian returned to the stand a few days later and was describing verses and choruses and bridges and Brian's lawyers asked if it would be alright if Brian could demonstrate and the judge agreed. A yamaha portable keyboard was given to Brian on the stand. NOW THIS IS WHAT I WAS WAITING FOR!!! There were more people in the gallery this day(maybe 8) than usual and you could just feel the excitement in the air. Brian had a cold, so he was having a bit of a hard time, but went on to do 409 and I Get Around. Everyone in the place was very excited including the jury. Brian explained what the elements of a song were and that sort of thing. It was just too cool. After this, Brian answered some more questions which turned out to be damaging testimony to his case."
http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/lovevwilson5.html (http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/lovevwilson5.html)
The demonstration at the keyboard was "testimony."

But in the next chapter..."I talked to Mr. Flynn (Atty. Mike Flynn) that day and asked him about...that Brian should go after his own lawyers.  He told me this was going to happen. He had also told me at that time (about 3 months after the trial was ended), that Mike and Brian had written about eight songs together." 

That surfermoon link is a good one.  ;)   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 13, 2016, 07:19:32 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.

Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/
Andrew - had those other lyricists come forward and filed a claim, at the time of the lawsuit, they might have been joined as well as parties in the suit, they could have become part of the award. 

That was a step that they might have taken with assistance of their own legal counsel.   ;)

Those other writers already *had* their share of the royalties. They didn't need to make any claims or get an award. What they already had was taken away from them.

It's very obvious that Mike was dealt with unjustly for many years. But it's equally obvious that in the process of correcting that injustice, Tony Asher in particular was done an injustice almost as bad. He wrote the whole lyric to Wouldn't It Be Nice other than the line "goodnight baby/sleep tight baby", and Mike now gets twice as big a share of the song for that line than Asher gets for all the rest of it.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on January 13, 2016, 07:27:26 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Brian Wilson has never seemed greedy, but the man making many of his decisions at the time seems to have been.

Would Murry, as publisher, profit from under reporting authors?  Isn't the publisher's royalties separate from the writer's and performers', etc.?  Wouldn't the reported author(s) be the only one(s) to profit from not reporting all of the authors?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on January 13, 2016, 07:35:06 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.

Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/
Andrew - had those other lyricists come forward and filed a claim, at the time of the lawsuit, they might have been joined as well as parties in the suit, they could have become part of the award. 

That was a step that they might have taken with assistance of their own legal counsel.   ;)

Those other writers already *had* their share of the royalties. They didn't need to make any claims or get an award. What they already had was taken away from them.

It's very obvious that Mike was dealt with unjustly for many years. But it's equally obvious that in the process of correcting that injustice, Tony Asher in particular was done an injustice almost as bad. He wrote the whole lyric to Wouldn't It Be Nice other than the line "goodnight baby/sleep tight baby", and Mike now gets twice as big a share of the song for that line than Asher gets for all the rest of it.

Kind of like Brian getting half of the lyric credit (according to Brad Elliott) for co-writing with Tony a single line of the GV lyrics.  :)

Don't get up.  I'll let myself out.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 07:38:10 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/
Andrew - had those other lyricists come forward and filed a claim, at the time of the lawsuit, they might have been joined as well as parties in the suit, they could have become part of the award.  

That was a step that they might have taken with assistance of their own legal counsel.   ;)

Those other writers already *had* their share of the royalties. They didn't need to make any claims or get an award. What they already had was taken away from them.

It's very obvious that Mike was dealt with unjustly for many years. But it's equally obvious that in the process of correcting that injustice, Tony Asher in particular was done an injustice almost as bad. He wrote the whole lyric to Wouldn't It Be Nice other than the line "goodnight baby/sleep tight baby", and Mike now gets twice as big a share of the song for that line than Asher gets for all the rest of it.
Andrew - post-trial there is an appeal period, during which time, if there was a dispute as to the results of the award, that is the time to assert a claim to reduce the award by the party who had to pay.  But likely Asher's time was to file to be a "party."

If Asher had a problem, he might have asserted a claim during pre-trial, when the news of the trial was covered. That was on Asher.  

One could not predict the award of the court.  They may have added in the time (duration) of non-attribution, with interest and costs.  

Maybe the award was a "symbolic" as a warning to those who follow to not "repeat the behavior." The court devised the award.  Maybe they were not "counting words" and looking at "concept," of "good night, sleep tight" in the concept of "Wouldn't it Be Nice" as a teen might have dreamt of it and found it to be "core" rather than "ancillary."  Maybe it was regarded or argued (WIBN) that it is a wishful "dream" song.

Mike's non-attribution was not initiated by Brian, but Murry.  Murry was "unavailable" as a witness.  So Brian, was called to be the witness as to the creative process.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 07:40:19 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Brian Wilson has never seemed greedy, but the man making many of his decisions at the time seems to have been.
Murry was not "available."

It was not Brian who made those decisions, apparently.  ;)
I was referring to Landy, at the time of the law suits.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 07:41:29 AM
I don't think Brian refused Mike's help - I'm under the impression that Mike was deposed, or otherwise gave testimony, that enhanced Brian's case. And the expected payback for that - finally giving Mike credit and royalties for "California Girls", which I'm told had long been promised him - didn't happen. That's when the lawsuit was filed, with the offer of a settlement.

I'm not saying anyone is saying anything to the contrary, but it's worth reiterating that when someone issued a subpoena for a deposition in a civil suit, they usually don't have the option of doing it or not doing it. There are plenty of stall tactics, and all sorts of accommodations can be made. But it's not as if Mike or anyone has the option of saying "Nah, I'm not going to show up for that deposition."

Separately, while a witness certainly shouldn't say they will alter their testimony one way or the other based on the person deposing them helping them or giving them any sort of consideration at a later date, I'm sure many such depositions have some implied back scratching involved.

If a witness that could help you is dragged in unwillingly, and/or you indicate you don't want to help them in some related matter at a later date, certainly there is the risk that that witness's memory may all of a sudden begin to fail them or that their "perspective" on matters may all of a sudden not be what everyone expected. But the witness also runs a risk, because one is under oath when testifying in a deposition.
Very good points.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 07:42:38 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Brian Wilson has never seemed greedy, but the man making many of his decisions at the time seems to have been.
Murry was not "available."

It was not Brian who made those decisions, apparently.  ;)
I was referring to Landy, at the time of the law suits.

This was a BB trial for lyric attribution.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 07:48:24 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Brian Wilson has never seemed greedy, but the man making many of his decisions at the time seems to have been.

Would Murry, as publisher, profit from under reporting authors?  Isn't the publisher's royalties separate from the writer's and performers', etc.?  Wouldn't the reported author(s) be the only one(s) to profit from not reporting all of the authors?
First, I was actually making reference to Landy at the time of the law suits and that, at Mike's request, I would expect at that time that BW would've agreed to put ML on the credits for California Girls.
Second, I don't know what the legal arrangement was with Sea of Tunes regarding distribution. Because it was made when Brian Wilson was still a legal minor, it would've originally been that all of his income went to Murry except for 15% which would be held in trust for the minor. So as long as only Murry's kids are on the songs, Murry gets all but 15% of the songwriter royalties as well as the publisher fees. California Girls was published after BW reached majority, but I don't know how the distributions were then made, but my impression, based on the famous Murry letter is that even after BW was 21, Murry was "handling" all his money and parceling it out to BW. If ML was on the credits, he'd have to turn that portion right over to ML. I think, basically, that Murry Wilson was pocketing a lot of Brian Wilson's income (and Mike Love's because he wasn't listed) until Sea of Tunes was sold, at which time Murry Wilson pocketed the whole deal.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 07:49:38 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.

Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/
Andrew - had those other lyricists come forward and filed a claim, at the time of the lawsuit, they might have been joined as well as parties in the suit, they could have become part of the award. 

That was a step that they might have taken with assistance of their own legal counsel.   ;)

Those other writers already *had* their share of the royalties. They didn't need to make any claims or get an award. What they already had was taken away from them.

It's very obvious that Mike was dealt with unjustly for many years. But it's equally obvious that in the process of correcting that injustice, Tony Asher in particular was done an injustice almost as bad. He wrote the whole lyric to Wouldn't It Be Nice other than the line "goodnight baby/sleep tight baby", and Mike now gets twice as big a share of the song for that line than Asher gets for all the rest of it.

Kind of like Brian getting half of the lyric credit (according to Brad Elliott) for co-writing with Tony a single line of the GV lyrics.  :)

Don't get up.  I'll let myself out.
no no.. don't go. I think that's perfectly analogous.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 07:53:04 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/
Andrew - had those other lyricists come forward and filed a claim, at the time of the lawsuit, they might have been joined as well as parties in the suit, they could have become part of the award.  

That was a step that they might have taken with assistance of their own legal counsel.   ;)

Those other writers already *had* their share of the royalties. They didn't need to make any claims or get an award. What they already had was taken away from them.

It's very obvious that Mike was dealt with unjustly for many years. But it's equally obvious that in the process of correcting that injustice, Tony Asher in particular was done an injustice almost as bad. He wrote the whole lyric to Wouldn't It Be Nice other than the line "goodnight baby/sleep tight baby", and Mike now gets twice as big a share of the song for that line than Asher gets for all the rest of it.
Andrew - post-trial there is an appeal period, during which time, if there was a dispute as to the results of the award, that is the time to assert a claim to reduce the award by the party who had to pay.  But likely Asher's time was to file to be a "party."

If Asher had a problem, he might have asserted a claim during pre-trial, when the news of the trial was covered. That was on Asher.  

One could not predict the award of the court.  They may have added in the time (duration) of non-attribution, with interest and costs.  

Maybe the award was a "symbolic" as a warning to those who follow to not "repeat the behavior." The court devised the award.  Maybe they were not "counting words" and looking at "concept," of "good night, sleep tight" in the concept of "Wouldn't it Be Nice" as a teen might have dreamt of it and found it to be "core" rather than "ancillary."  Maybe it was regarded or argued (WIBN) that it is a wishful "dream" song.

Mike's non-attribution was not initiated by Brian, but Murry.  Murry was "unavailable" as a witness.  So Brian, was called to be the witness as to the creative process.  

So, if you don't have a claim, you can file a claim against an anticipation that the court may, in its decision wrongly deprive you of your rightful credit?
I don't expect that's so.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 07:53:56 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Brian Wilson has never seemed greedy, but the man making many of his decisions at the time seems to have been.
Murry was not "available."

It was not Brian who made those decisions, apparently.  ;)
I was referring to Landy, at the time of the law suits.

This was a BB trial for lyric attribution.
That is perfectly true. And that is what I was referring to.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 08:13:02 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/
Andrew - had those other lyricists come forward and filed a claim, at the time of the lawsuit, they might have been joined as well as parties in the suit, they could have become part of the award.  

That was a step that they might have taken with assistance of their own legal counsel.   ;)

Those other writers already *had* their share of the royalties. They didn't need to make any claims or get an award. What they already had was taken away from them.

It's very obvious that Mike was dealt with unjustly for many years. But it's equally obvious that in the process of correcting that injustice, Tony Asher in particular was done an injustice almost as bad. He wrote the whole lyric to Wouldn't It Be Nice other than the line "goodnight baby/sleep tight baby", and Mike now gets twice as big a share of the song for that line than Asher gets for all the rest of it.
Andrew - post-trial there is an appeal period, during which time, if there was a dispute as to the results of the award, that is the time to assert a claim to reduce the award by the party who had to pay.  But likely Asher's time was to file to be a "party."

If Asher had a problem, he might have asserted a claim during pre-trial, when the news of the trial was covered. That was on Asher.  

One could not predict the award of the court.  They may have added in the time (duration) of non-attribution, with interest and costs.  

Maybe the award was a "symbolic" as a warning to those who follow to not "repeat the behavior." The court devised the award.  Maybe they were not "counting words" and looking at "concept," of "good night, sleep tight" in the concept of "Wouldn't it Be Nice" as a teen might have dreamt of it and found it to be "core" rather than "ancillary."  Maybe it was regarded or argued (WIBN) that it is a wishful "dream" song.

Mike's non-attribution was not initiated by Brian, but Murry.  Murry was "unavailable" as a witness.  So Brian, was called to be the witness as to the creative process.  

So, if you don't have a claim, you can file a claim against an anticipation that the court may, in its decision wrongly deprive you of your rightful credit?
I don't expect that's so.
Emily - it depends on the individual status of the parties.  Asher, appears to be an independent contractor and did work-for-hire.  He would have been paid for his input at the time of the event. He got his money before the album and single was released, perhaps.  I don't know what the royalty arrangement was.

Mike asserted a claim, along with many other songs, that he contributed to that song and was not recognized for attribution purposes.  He made his claim after the world is thinking that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the record, albeit perhaps a small one.  But small can be viewed sometimes as important, and the court found it to be important. 

And the smiley members can lament the injustice in the way the scales of justice are balanced.  I am not arguing whether it was just or not.  It was settled a couple of decades ago. Sometimes courts make mistakes.   But, if they do, or you think they did, you call your lawyer and see what can be done right away. 

It was on Asher to see if he had a stake in the outcome.  Asher was work-for-hire.  Mike was part of the corporate structure. He was not work-for-hire.   ;)

If you are a scientist and are hired to do scientific work, in a company, your work is generally attributed to a "company product." Unless there is an agreement to the contrary. 

When a claim goes in, and is public, and you even think you have a stake in the outcome, then you consult with a lawyer, and decide whether or not to file.   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 08:21:48 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/
Andrew - had those other lyricists come forward and filed a claim, at the time of the lawsuit, they might have been joined as well as parties in the suit, they could have become part of the award.  

That was a step that they might have taken with assistance of their own legal counsel.   ;)

Those other writers already *had* their share of the royalties. They didn't need to make any claims or get an award. What they already had was taken away from them.

It's very obvious that Mike was dealt with unjustly for many years. But it's equally obvious that in the process of correcting that injustice, Tony Asher in particular was done an injustice almost as bad. He wrote the whole lyric to Wouldn't It Be Nice other than the line "goodnight baby/sleep tight baby", and Mike now gets twice as big a share of the song for that line than Asher gets for all the rest of it.
Andrew - post-trial there is an appeal period, during which time, if there was a dispute as to the results of the award, that is the time to assert a claim to reduce the award by the party who had to pay.  But likely Asher's time was to file to be a "party."

If Asher had a problem, he might have asserted a claim during pre-trial, when the news of the trial was covered. That was on Asher.  

One could not predict the award of the court.  They may have added in the time (duration) of non-attribution, with interest and costs.  

Maybe the award was a "symbolic" as a warning to those who follow to not "repeat the behavior." The court devised the award.  Maybe they were not "counting words" and looking at "concept," of "good night, sleep tight" in the concept of "Wouldn't it Be Nice" as a teen might have dreamt of it and found it to be "core" rather than "ancillary."  Maybe it was regarded or argued (WIBN) that it is a wishful "dream" song.

Mike's non-attribution was not initiated by Brian, but Murry.  Murry was "unavailable" as a witness.  So Brian, was called to be the witness as to the creative process.  

So, if you don't have a claim, you can file a claim against an anticipation that the court may, in its decision wrongly deprive you of your rightful credit?
I don't expect that's so.
Emily - it depends on the individual status of the parties.  Asher, appears to be an independent contractor and did work-for-hire.  He would have been paid for his input at the time of the event. He got his money before the album and single was released, perhaps.  I don't know what the royalty arrangement was.

Mike asserted a claim, along with many other songs, that he contributed to that song and was not recognized for attribution purposes.  He made his claim after the world is thinking that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the record, albeit perhaps a small one.  But small can be viewed sometimes as important, and the court found it to be important.  

And the smiley members can lament the injustice in the way the scales of justice are balanced.  I am not arguing whether it was just or not.  It was settled a couple of decades ago. Sometimes courts make mistakes.   But, if they do, or you think they did, you call your lawyer and see what can be done right away.  

It was on Asher to see if he had a stake in the outcome.  Asher was work-for-hire.  Mike was part of the corporate structure. He was not work-for-hire.   ;)

If you are a scientist and are hired to do scientific work, in a company, your work is generally attributed to a "company product." Unless there is an agreement to the contrary.  

When a claim goes in, and is public, and you even think you have a stake in the outcome, then you consult with a lawyer, and decide whether or not to file.  
It was not work-for-hire in terms of receiving royalties. The publishing structure is entirely separate from the recording or performance structure. It is not analogous to a corporate scientist.
I suspect Asher did not think in advance that he had a stake in the outcome; it turned out he did and he didn't take action. He's talked about how ludicrous it was but may have decided it's not worth his while to pursue it in court; but it's still unjust. That the victim of an injustice does not take action on his own behalf, to me, is not a cause to shrug off injustice. I understand that there's a strain of philosophical thought that is strong in the US that differs with that idea.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 13, 2016, 08:32:48 AM
Emily - it depends on the individual status of the parties.  Asher, appears to be an independent contractor and did work-for-hire.  He would have been paid for his input at the time of the event. He got his money before the album and single was released, perhaps.  I don't know what the royalty arrangement was.

Work-for-hire has a very specific legal meaning when it comes to copyright law. Nothing Asher did was work-for-hire, nor has it ever been described as such that I know of.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 13, 2016, 08:34:26 AM
Kind of like Brian getting half of the lyric credit (according to Brad Elliott) for co-writing with Tony a single line of the GV lyrics.  :)

Don't get up.  I'll let myself out.

Not perfectly analogous, as the basic lyrical concept of Good Vibrations, including the title, came from Brian. But similar enough, yes.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 13, 2016, 08:38:37 AM
It was not work-for-hire in terms of receiving royalties. The publishing structure is entirely separate from the recording or performance structure. It is not analogous to a corporate scientist.
I suspect Asher did not think in advance that he had a stake in the outcome; it turned out he did and he didn't take action. He's talked about how ludicrous it was but may have decided it's not worth his while to pursue it in court; but it's still unjust. That the victim of an injustice does not take action on his own behalf, to me, is not a cause to shrug off injustice. I understand that there's a strain of philosophical thought that is strong in the US that differs with that idea.

Quite.
Also, Mike co-wrote California Girls in 1965, and the lawsuit over it wasn't until 1994. If Mike's lack of credit was unjust during those twenty-nine years, without him taking legal action, Tony Asher's reduced credit for the last twenty-one years, with no legal action, can also be unjust.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 08:42:02 AM
Brian was saying Mike had written the words for "California Girls" well before the trial. Back in the seventies, if not late sixties.
Yep. The *really* annoying thing about that trial is that because of the decision not to restore Mike's credit on the very obvious cases like California Girls (and really, does *anyone* doubt that one? It's the most Mike Love thing ever written), he ended up getting credit not only on the obvious and borderline ones, but on things like Wouldn't It Be Nice, which he had basically no involvement in and were obvious bargaining chips. (Yes, he probably did write those two lines, but that's all). And Mike now, because of a bad decision on *Brian's* lawyers' part, now also gets money that should have gone to other co-writers like Tony Asher, as well as Brian. Brian's bad legal advice ended up hurting people who were completely uninvolved in the lawsuit :-/
Andrew - had those other lyricists come forward and filed a claim, at the time of the lawsuit, they might have been joined as well as parties in the suit, they could have become part of the award.  

That was a step that they might have taken with assistance of their own legal counsel.   ;)

Those other writers already *had* their share of the royalties. They didn't need to make any claims or get an award. What they already had was taken away from them.

It's very obvious that Mike was dealt with unjustly for many years. But it's equally obvious that in the process of correcting that injustice, Tony Asher in particular was done an injustice almost as bad. He wrote the whole lyric to Wouldn't It Be Nice other than the line "goodnight baby/sleep tight baby", and Mike now gets twice as big a share of the song for that line than Asher gets for all the rest of it.
Andrew - post-trial there is an appeal period, during which time, if there was a dispute as to the results of the award, that is the time to assert a claim to reduce the award by the party who had to pay.  But likely Asher's time was to file to be a "party."

If Asher had a problem, he might have asserted a claim during pre-trial, when the news of the trial was covered. That was on Asher.  

One could not predict the award of the court.  They may have added in the time (duration) of non-attribution, with interest and costs.  

Maybe the award was a "symbolic" as a warning to those who follow to not "repeat the behavior." The court devised the award.  Maybe they were not "counting words" and looking at "concept," of "good night, sleep tight" in the concept of "Wouldn't it Be Nice" as a teen might have dreamt of it and found it to be "core" rather than "ancillary."  Maybe it was regarded or argued (WIBN) that it is a wishful "dream" song.

Mike's non-attribution was not initiated by Brian, but Murry.  Murry was "unavailable" as a witness.  So Brian, was called to be the witness as to the creative process.  

So, if you don't have a claim, you can file a claim against an anticipation that the court may, in its decision wrongly deprive you of your rightful credit?
I don't expect that's so.
Emily - it depends on the individual status of the parties.  Asher, appears to be an independent contractor and did work-for-hire.  He would have been paid for his input at the time of the event. He got his money before the album and single was released, perhaps.  I don't know what the royalty arrangement was.

Mike asserted a claim, along with many other songs, that he contributed to that song and was not recognized for attribution purposes.  He made his claim after the world is thinking that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the record, albeit perhaps a small one.  But small can be viewed sometimes as important, and the court found it to be important.  

And the smiley members can lament the injustice in the way the scales of justice are balanced.  I am not arguing whether it was just or not.  It was settled a couple of decades ago. Sometimes courts make mistakes.   But, if they do, or you think they did, you call your lawyer and see what can be done right away.  

It was on Asher to see if he had a stake in the outcome.  Asher was work-for-hire.  Mike was part of the corporate structure. He was not work-for-hire.   ;)

If you are a scientist and are hired to do scientific work, in a company, your work is generally attributed to a "company product." Unless there is an agreement to the contrary.  

When a claim goes in, and is public, and you even think you have a stake in the outcome, then you consult with a lawyer, and decide whether or not to file.  
It was not work-for-hire in terms of receiving royalties. The publishing structure is entirely separate from the recording or performance structure. It is not analogous to a corporate scientist.
I suspect Asher did not think in advance that he had a stake in the outcome; it turned out he did and he didn't take action. He's talked about how ludicrous it was but may have decided it's not worth his while to pursue it in court; but it's still unjust. That the victim of an injustice does not take action on his own behalf, to me, is not a cause to shrug off injustice. I understand that there's a strong strain in US philosophical thought that differs with that idea.
Emily - Once the suit was filed, and songs were enumerated, and Asher had his name on even one, it was on him to find out from his lawyer if he had a claim. It seems he was an ad (I think) writer so he is a professional in the publication business.  And, if the judge decided that he did, then his name would be entered as a Plaintiff, alongside Mike's.  

Barry Manilow started out as a ad jingle writer, doing "I am stuck on Bandaid Brand, and You deserve a break today...McDonalds." Asher was in the business, doing similar work.  Asher is listed on wiki as a lyricist, jingle writer and copywriter.  He wrote for the Partridge Family, Mattel Toys, Gallo Wines, Max Factor Cosmetics, Glendale Federal Savings, etc.   And he wrote with Brian for the Flintstones movie, "Viva Rock Vegas."  

So the complaint would read something like this "Michael Love, Tony Asher v. Brian Wilson."  (It would likely be the entities named as well.) But, Asher would likely have to be a party and testify one way or the other as to his contributions and his lawyer argue for him.  

You perceive him to be a victim.  He apparently took no action.  Had he gone to the court, and asked to be added as a plaintiff the court would have decided whether he was or not.  It does not matter what he was "thinking" and that is irrelevant.  

Once the file is claim, the world is "on notice."  That is why there is a system of notice, for many claims in the newspapers, whether for custody, or class action injuries from a product.

That was on him and his lawyer.  Not on Mike, after the award was made.  Remember, Mike offered to settle for far less than the court award, so I would guess it was a surprise if not a shock to him.   ;)

The system is what it is.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 13, 2016, 08:46:52 AM

Emily - Once the suit was filed, and songs were enumerated, and Asher had his name on even one, it was on him to find out from his lawyer if he had a claim.

But the point is, he didn't "have a claim" until after the lawsuit, when *his* share of the rights to the song was reduced, even though he wasn't a party to the suit. You keep talking like it was his responsibility to sue Brian *for what he already had*. It wasn't. He wasn't a plaintiff because at the time *he had no complaint* -- he was still getting the royalties which had been agreed.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 08:55:45 AM

Emily - Once the suit was filed, and songs were enumerated, and Asher had his name on even one, it was on him to find out from his lawyer if he had a claim.

But the point is, he didn't "have a claim" until after the lawsuit, when *his* share of the rights to the song was reduced, even though he wasn't a party to the suit. You keep talking like it was his responsibility to sue Brian *for what he already had*. It wasn't. He wasn't a plaintiff because at the time *he had no complaint* -- he was still getting the royalties which had been agreed.

Andrew - during the notice of the lawsuit, was likely the time that he maybe have asserted a claim as a stakeholder.   Yes, it was likely his responsibility once the suit was filed.  If there was a danger his percentages might be reduced, then, yes, he would need to speak up.

The court devised the remedy for Mike. 

Anyone who had an interest, would likely need to be a party if his intellectual property was in contention. 

What is lost here is that it was an "entity" - an analogy is if your neighbor's dog bites you, and has insurance coverage, in order to collect on their insurance you have to name the owner of the dog to reach the entity. The dog owner might be your best friend, but to reach the asset of the insurance policy you have to name the friend who owns the dog who bit you. 



 



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 09:15:36 AM
It was not work-for-hire in terms of receiving royalties. The publishing structure is entirely separate from the recording or performance structure. It is not analogous to a corporate scientist.
I suspect Asher did not think in advance that he had a stake in the outcome; it turned out he did and he didn't take action. He's talked about how ludicrous it was but may have decided it's not worth his while to pursue it in court; but it's still unjust. That the victim of an injustice does not take action on his own behalf, to me, is not a cause to shrug off injustice. I understand that there's a strong strain in US philosophical thought that differs with that idea.
Emily - Once the suit was filed, and songs were enumerated, and Asher had his name on even one, it was on him to find out from his lawyer if he had a claim. It seems he was an ad (I think) writer so he is a professional in the publication business.  And, if the judge decided that he did, then his name would be entered as a Plaintiff, alongside Mike's.  

So the complaint would read something like this "Michael Love, Tony Asher v. Brian Wilson."  (It would likely be the entities named as well.) But, Asher would likely have to be a party and testify one way or the other as to his contributions and his lawyer argue for him.  

You perceive him to be a victim.  He apparently took no action.  Had he gone to the court, and asked to be added as a plaintiff the court would have decided whether he was or not.  It does not matter what he was "thinking" and that is irrelevant.  

Once the file is claim, the world is "on notice."  That is why there is a system of notice, for many claims in the newspapers, whether for custody, or class action injuries from a product.

That was on him and his lawyer.  Not on Mike, after the award was made.  Remember, Mike offered to settle for far less than the court award, so I would guess it was a surprise if not a shock to him.   ;)

The system is what it is.  
He did not have a claim until after the case. So the judge would have not put his name on the case. He would've had to file a new claim after the the first judgment. That he decided not to does not mean there was no injustice.
If you have an instance of a person being allowed to sue someone though they had no claim against him, please show it. It's not my understanding that it's permitted. Perhaps I'm wrong.
The "it's on him" philosophy is yours, not mine.
To me, it matters what he was thinking and to me it's not irrelevant. To me, people's feelings matter.

and the dog biting thing is not analogous. With the dog biting, you are having someone file a claim after the injury. What you seem to be arguing is that Asher should have filed a claim before the injury.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 13, 2016, 09:20:21 AM
Anyone who had an interest, would likely need to be a party if his intellectual property was in contention. 

A few minutes ago, you were arguing that Asher's intellectual property wasn't in contention at all, because his work was "work-for-hire".


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 13, 2016, 09:20:48 AM
Mike saw his chance to make millions in the trial off a weakened BW and went for it. ::)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: AndrewHickey on January 13, 2016, 09:23:59 AM
and the dog biting thing is not analogous. With the dog biting, you are having someone file a claim after the injury. What you seem to be arguing is that Asher should have filed a claim before the injury.

Quite. It's nonsensical, even if one accepts (as I definitely don't) that it is the responsibility of a victim to rectify an injustice, rather than the responsibility of the perpetrator not to act unjustly.

(And again, I'm not saying that Mike acted unjustly. I think that in the vast majority of the songs he sued over, he made at least some contribution, and in some that contribution was hugely important).


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 09:28:59 AM
I don't think anyone (except possibly Murry then Landy) acted with the intention of injustice*; I do think the outcome has been pretty consistently unjust.
I've looked some stuff up - evidently, if Asher felt that the money and probably extreme stress of getting involved in a BB lawsuit was worth it, he can have asked (but BW's lawyers, I think, can have refused) to be added as a third party defendant.
He chose not to do so, or if he did, he was refused. If he considered it at all, I can sympathize with the decision not to do it, if that's what happened. If he did, it wouldn't surprise me if Brian Wilson's lawyers, (given the reports of them) refused.
In any case, the outcome was unjust.

*and of course, to a degree, every lawyer in an adversarial system.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 09:30:39 AM
It was not work-for-hire in terms of receiving royalties. The publishing structure is entirely separate from the recording or performance structure. It is not analogous to a corporate scientist.
I suspect Asher did not think in advance that he had a stake in the outcome; it turned out he did and he didn't take action. He's talked about how ludicrous it was but may have decided it's not worth his while to pursue it in court; but it's still unjust. That the victim of an injustice does not take action on his own behalf, to me, is not a cause to shrug off injustice. I understand that there's a strong strain in US philosophical thought that differs with that idea.
Emily - Once the suit was filed, and songs were enumerated, and Asher had his name on even one, it was on him to find out from his lawyer if he had a claim. It seems he was an ad (I think) writer so he is a professional in the publication business.  And, if the judge decided that he did, then his name would be entered as a Plaintiff, alongside Mike's.  

So the complaint would read something like this "Michael Love, Tony Asher v. Brian Wilson."  (It would likely be the entities named as well.) But, Asher would likely have to be a party and testify one way or the other as to his contributions and his lawyer argue for him.  

You perceive him to be a victim.  He apparently took no action.  Had he gone to the court, and asked to be added as a plaintiff the court would have decided whether he was or not.  It does not matter what he was "thinking" and that is irrelevant.  

Once the file is claim, the world is "on notice."  That is why there is a system of notice, for many claims in the newspapers, whether for custody, or class action injuries from a product.

That was on him and his lawyer.  Not on Mike, after the award was made.  Remember, Mike offered to settle for far less than the court award, so I would guess it was a surprise if not a shock to him.   ;)

The system is what it is.  
He did not have a claim until after the case. So the judge would have not put his name on the case. He would've had to file a new claim after the the first judgment. That he decided not to does not mean there was no injustice.
If you have an instance of a person being allowed to sue someone though they had no claim against him, please show it. It's not my understanding that it's permitted. Perhaps I'm wrong.
The "it's on him" philosophy is yours, not mine.
To me, it matters what he was thinking and to me it's not irrelevant. To me, people's feelings matter.

and the dog biting thing is not analogous. With the dog biting, you are having someone file a claim after the injury. What you seem to be arguing is that Asher should have filed a claim before the injury.

Emily - whatever his "injury" was, and I am not privy to his contract/s, then it is up to him to notify the court that he was "wronged" and not for the smiley smile court of appeal to debate it.  Did he? Just as food for thought;  Mike's name should have been on all those millions of albums, and millions of singles, and was not.  That lack of proper attribution may have been part of the complaint and part of the remedy.  

Yes, the dog biting example, is analogous, relative to naming a party that has an entity attached to it.  For reaching the asset of the insurance policy to make the person "whole."  There was a recent case in the media, which got global attention, where a kid's dog bit his aunt.  She had to name the kid, who owned the dog, and her nephew in order to reach the asset of the insurance policy.  Sounds cruel but that is the way the system is.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 09:32:19 AM
Mike saw his chance to make millions in the trial off a weakened BW and went for it. ::)
Mike offered to settle for under that amount.  The court fixed the amount. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 09:35:31 AM
I don't think anyone (except possibly Murry then Landy) acted with the intention of injustice*; I do think the outcome has been pretty consistently unjust.
I've looked some stuff up - evidently, if Asher felt that the money and probably extreme stress of getting involved in a BB lawsuit was worth it, he can have asked (but BW's lawyers, I think, can have refused) to be added as a third party defendant.
He chose not to do so, or if he did, he was refused. If he considered it at all, I can sympathize with the decision not to do it, if that's what happened. If he did, it wouldn't surprise me if Brian Wilson's lawyers, given the reports of them) refused.
In any case, the outcome was unjust.

*and of course, to a degree, every lawyer in an adversarial system.
Third-party.      

There you go.   :lol  

He would have to show he was a stakeholder in the outcome of the action.  And that he had related claims in the action.  


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 09:48:45 AM
It was not work-for-hire in terms of receiving royalties. The publishing structure is entirely separate from the recording or performance structure. It is not analogous to a corporate scientist.
I suspect Asher did not think in advance that he had a stake in the outcome; it turned out he did and he didn't take action. He's talked about how ludicrous it was but may have decided it's not worth his while to pursue it in court; but it's still unjust. That the victim of an injustice does not take action on his own behalf, to me, is not a cause to shrug off injustice. I understand that there's a strong strain in US philosophical thought that differs with that idea.
Emily - Once the suit was filed, and songs were enumerated, and Asher had his name on even one, it was on him to find out from his lawyer if he had a claim. It seems he was an ad (I think) writer so he is a professional in the publication business.  And, if the judge decided that he did, then his name would be entered as a Plaintiff, alongside Mike's.  

So the complaint would read something like this "Michael Love, Tony Asher v. Brian Wilson."  (It would likely be the entities named as well.) But, Asher would likely have to be a party and testify one way or the other as to his contributions and his lawyer argue for him.  

You perceive him to be a victim.  He apparently took no action.  Had he gone to the court, and asked to be added as a plaintiff the court would have decided whether he was or not.  It does not matter what he was "thinking" and that is irrelevant.  

Once the file is claim, the world is "on notice."  That is why there is a system of notice, for many claims in the newspapers, whether for custody, or class action injuries from a product.

That was on him and his lawyer.  Not on Mike, after the award was made.  Remember, Mike offered to settle for far less than the court award, so I would guess it was a surprise if not a shock to him.   ;)

The system is what it is.  
He did not have a claim until after the case. So the judge would have not put his name on the case. He would've had to file a new claim after the the first judgment. That he decided not to does not mean there was no injustice.
If you have an instance of a person being allowed to sue someone though they had no claim against him, please show it. It's not my understanding that it's permitted. Perhaps I'm wrong.
The "it's on him" philosophy is yours, not mine.
To me, it matters what he was thinking and to me it's not irrelevant. To me, people's feelings matter.

and the dog biting thing is not analogous. With the dog biting, you are having someone file a claim after the injury. What you seem to be arguing is that Asher should have filed a claim before the injury.

Emily - whatever his "injury" was, and I am not privy to his contract/s, then it is up to him to notify the court that he was "wronged" and not for the smiley smile court of appeal to debate it.  Did he? Just as food for thought;  Mike's name should have been on all those millions of albums, and millions of singles, and was not.  That lack of proper attribution may have been part of the complaint and part of the remedy.  

Yes, the dog biting example, is analogous, relative to naming a party that has an entity attached to it.  For reaching the asset of the insurance policy to make the person "whole."  There was a recent case in the media, which got global attention, where a kid's dog bit his aunt.  She had to name the kid, who owned the dog, and her nephew in order to reach the asset of the insurance policy.  Sounds cruel but that is the way the system is.  
I absolutely understand that to sue an insurance claim you have to name the person who holds the insurance. So what? What has that to do with when or if Asher should or did file a claim, whether it's reasonable to object to injustice even if the victim is not acting on their own behalf and whether the current distribution is just?

Again, we have a philosophical difference. You appear to be saying that whether or not a court finding is just, the "smiley smile court of appeal" is in no position to debate it. I disagree. If there is an unjust finding in court, I feel perfectly comfortable with it being debated, and I think any injustice should be debated.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Pretty Funky on January 13, 2016, 09:49:32 AM
Mike saw his chance to make millions in the trial off a weakened BW and went for it. ::)

Between 1965 and 1989, just when was this period Mike should have gone after a non- weakened Brian?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 09:51:50 AM
I don't think anyone (except possibly Murry then Landy) acted with the intention of injustice*; I do think the outcome has been pretty consistently unjust.
I've looked some stuff up - evidently, if Asher felt that the money and probably extreme stress of getting involved in a BB lawsuit was worth it, he can have asked (but BW's lawyers, I think, can have refused) to be added as a third party defendant.
He chose not to do so, or if he did, he was refused. If he considered it at all, I can sympathize with the decision not to do it, if that's what happened. If he did, it wouldn't surprise me if Brian Wilson's lawyers, given the reports of them) refused.
In any case, the outcome was unjust.

*and of course, to a degree, every lawyer in an adversarial system.
Third-party.      

There you go.   :lol  

He would have to show he was a stakeholder in the outcome of the action.  And that he had related claims in the action.  
Yes, but Brian Wilson's team would have had to bring him in. He could not have entered the suit on his own.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 09:53:56 AM
Mike saw his chance to make millions in the trial off a weakened BW and went for it. ::)

Between 1965 and 1989, just when was this period Mike should have gone after a non- weakened Brian?
Really, he should have gone after Murry right off the bat in 1962-1963.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 09:56:16 AM
It was not work-for-hire in terms of receiving royalties. The publishing structure is entirely separate from the recording or performance structure. It is not analogous to a corporate scientist.
I suspect Asher did not think in advance that he had a stake in the outcome; it turned out he did and he didn't take action. He's talked about how ludicrous it was but may have decided it's not worth his while to pursue it in court; but it's still unjust. That the victim of an injustice does not take action on his own behalf, to me, is not a cause to shrug off injustice. I understand that there's a strong strain in US philosophical thought that differs with that idea.
Emily - Once the suit was filed, and songs were enumerated, and Asher had his name on even one, it was on him to find out from his lawyer if he had a claim. It seems he was an ad (I think) writer so he is a professional in the publication business.  And, if the judge decided that he did, then his name would be entered as a Plaintiff, alongside Mike's.  

So the complaint would read something like this "Michael Love, Tony Asher v. Brian Wilson."  (It would likely be the entities named as well.) But, Asher would likely have to be a party and testify one way or the other as to his contributions and his lawyer argue for him.  

You perceive him to be a victim.  He apparently took no action.  Had he gone to the court, and asked to be added as a plaintiff the court would have decided whether he was or not.  It does not matter what he was "thinking" and that is irrelevant.  

Once the file is claim, the world is "on notice."  That is why there is a system of notice, for many claims in the newspapers, whether for custody, or class action injuries from a product.

That was on him and his lawyer.  Not on Mike, after the award was made.  Remember, Mike offered to settle for far less than the court award, so I would guess it was a surprise if not a shock to him.   ;)

The system is what it is.  
He did not have a claim until after the case. So the judge would have not put his name on the case. He would've had to file a new claim after the the first judgment. That he decided not to does not mean there was no injustice.
If you have an instance of a person being allowed to sue someone though they had no claim against him, please show it. It's not my understanding that it's permitted. Perhaps I'm wrong.
The "it's on him" philosophy is yours, not mine.
To me, it matters what he was thinking and to me it's not irrelevant. To me, people's feelings matter.

and the dog biting thing is not analogous. With the dog biting, you are having someone file a claim after the injury. What you seem to be arguing is that Asher should have filed a claim before the injury.

Emily - whatever his "injury" was, and I am not privy to his contract/s, then it is up to him to notify the court that he was "wronged" and not for the smiley smile court of appeal to debate it.  Did he? Just as food for thought;  Mike's name should have been on all those millions of albums, and millions of singles, and was not.  That lack of proper attribution may have been part of the complaint and part of the remedy.  

Yes, the dog biting example, is analogous, relative to naming a party that has an entity attached to it.  For reaching the asset of the insurance policy to make the person "whole."  There was a recent case in the media, which got global attention, where a kid's dog bit his aunt.  She had to name the kid, who owned the dog, and her nephew in order to reach the asset of the insurance policy.  Sounds cruel but that is the way the system is.  
I absolutely understand that to sue an insurance claim you have to name the person who holds the insurance. So what? What has that to do with when or if Asher should or did file a claim, whether it's reasonable to object to injustice even if the victim is not acting on their own behalf and whether the current distribution is just?

Again, we have a philosophical difference. You appear to be saying that whether or not a court finding is just, the "smiley smile court of appeal" is in no position to debate it. I disagree. If there is an unjust finding in court, I feel perfectly comfortable with it being debated, and I think any injustice should be debated.
It is not philosophical.  It relates to the case which was interesting.  There are a lot of very interesting music copyright cases as well.  

Unless, generally, I have read the complaint and the pre-trial material, where the judge has "weeded the garden" of issues not relevant, transcript, and the court holding, it is just another discussion.   "You can't count someone else's money," a wise colleague once told me.  :lol
 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 10:00:17 AM
Mike saw his chance to make millions in the trial off a weakened BW and went for it. ::)

Between 1965 and 1989, just when was this period Mike should have gone after a non- weakened Brian?
Really, he should have gone after Murry right off the bat in 1962-1963.
Don't you think the court recognized the impossibly difficult dynamics filing a family suit like that, and how Murry might have caused the breakup of the band, as a result, with his still-minor (for contract purposes) kids in it? 

He was not going after Brian as much as the "entity" that was set up. 


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 10:08:46 AM

It is not philosophical.  It relates to the case which was interesting.  There are a lot of very interesting music copyright cases as well.  

Unless, generally, I have read the complaint and the pre-trial material, where the judge has "weeded the garden" of issues not relevant, transcript, and the court holding, it is just another discussion.   "You can't count someone else's money," a wise colleague once told me.  :lol
 
You have expressed several times "it's on him" as though an objection to an injustice is not to be made if the injured person did not take action to rectify the injustice. That's philosophical and it's not a philosophy to which I adhere.

Yes it's a discussion. And yes you can count someone else's money.  ???

This is getting really petty.
The bottom line is, he didn't act in his defense, which would've required filing a new claim after the first trial concluded, unless Brian Wilson's team admitted him to their defense as a third party.  The outcome of that trial is perceived to have been unjust by several people. The fact that Asher did not act in his defense does not reduce the sense that some people have that the finding was unjust.



Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 10:24:27 AM

It is not philosophical.  It relates to the case which was interesting.  There are a lot of very interesting music copyright cases as well.  

Unless, generally, I have read the complaint and the pre-trial material, where the judge has "weeded the garden" of issues not relevant, transcript, and the court holding, it is just another discussion.   "You can't count someone else's money," a wise colleague once told me.  :lol
 
You have expressed several times "it's on him" as though an objection to an injustice is not to be made if the injured person did not take action to rectify the injustice. That's philosophical and it's not a philosophy to which I adhere.

Yes it's a discussion. And yes you can count someone else's money.  ???

This is getting really petty.
The bottom line is, he didn't act in his defense, which would've required filing a new claim after the first trial concluded, unless Brian Wilson's team admitted him to their defense as a third party.  The outcome of that trial is perceived to have been unjust by several people. The fact that Asher did not act in his defense does not reduce the sense that some people have that the finding was unjust.
This all depends on what the rules of procedure in the court were followed to join a party.  You just can't invite yourself to the party. Pun intended.  You have to be a stakeholder on either side.  

Parties (persons or entities) may be "joined" in a suit if they show they have "standing" or as I said earlier are "stakeholders" in the suit.  And that asks whether someone's rights have been or will be affected one way or another.  

There is no doubt that some feel it is not a just result.  

And, I am not looking at the kind of job Brian's or Mike's lawyers did, and just the result.  It was no secret as to who were the names on the label.  

There are too many unknowns to speculate about.  Speculation is ridiculous.  ;)

And you can count someone's money if you are their guardian or parent.  You only know what is in your pocket. The rest is an estimate.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: LeeDempsey on January 13, 2016, 10:37:18 AM
Mike saw his chance to make millions in the trial off a weakened BW and went for it. ::)

I am about as big of a Brian fan as you could ever meet, and even I know that not to be true...  Mike was willing to settle for co-credits on all future BB releases and a token amount ($750,000).  Brian's legal team advised Brian that they were certain that he would win, and advised him not to settle.   That advice cost Brian $4,250,000.

Lee


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: RJM on January 13, 2016, 11:17:25 AM
Mike saw his chance to make millions in the trial off a weakened BW and went for it. ::)

I am about as big of a Brian fan as you could ever meet, and even I know that not to be true...  Mike was willing to settle for co-credits on all future BB releases and a token amount ($750,000).  Brian's legal team advised Brian that they were certain that he would win, and advised him not to settle.   That advice cost Brian $4,250,000.

Lee









This will be unpopular around here, but I don't care.

If I was Brian's lawyer, I would have fought that tooth and nail. On paper, Brian SHOULD have won. It's too easy to look back 20 years later and go "Brian's greedy idiot lawyers".  But, looking back, I thought Brian's case was stronger.  The only problem was he folded during tbe trial.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 13, 2016, 12:04:31 PM
    Debbie KL,   you my dear are the "clearest" person on this Smilely Smile "COURT OF APPEALS DEBATE TEAM" for you have expressed a concern and interest in what Stephen Love has been doing? The Gentleman responsible for SAVING Brian's LIFE! Well, I can tell you what he has been doing wiith himself... Stephen has been "SURFING" in Hanalei Bay Kauai for the last 20 years... where he also resides! YES... "SURFING"... he moved there, and "SURFS" to maintain his SANITY!! I can also tell you Stephen is well respected by the locals and is considered "FAMILY" (kamaina as they say). I have visited him a number of times, as others have, and we can all attest to the sentiment that he is considered a Local Treasure! Stephen lives with a beautiful girl named Cathy Moe, who also graduated "Magna Cum Laude" from U.C.L.A., and after having worked for Disney for 10 yrs she has written a Horoscope column for a Japanese Magazine for the last 17 yrs! I would like to assure you Debbie that Stephen not only lives a very serene and satisfying life "SURFING" in Kauai, the Garden Island, with his many friends enjoying the Aloha Spirit of Paradise but most importantly is "HAPPY" :) HAPPY :) HAPPY :) Island Life and... SURFING will do that for you! Debbie... Stephen called me and asked me to THANK YOU for your kind words and send you a warm Aloha!


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: jeffh on January 13, 2016, 12:22:41 PM
Rocky, what are YOU doing NOW. Recently you told us what you did in the past, but what are you doing currently as a livelihood?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SteveMC on January 13, 2016, 12:32:59 PM
The idea that Asher didn't want to spend on possible legal fees seems very plausible to me.  I know of similar situations with other bands.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 13, 2016, 12:42:25 PM
  Brian's legal team advised Brian that they were certain that he would win, and advised him not to settle.   That advice cost Brian $4,250,000.

Lee

More like $9,250,000. His legal fees were said to be about  $5 million. He essentially lost all the lump sum from the publishing case. No wonder he sued his legal team.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: adamghost on January 13, 2016, 12:47:37 PM
I don't see why it's so hard to acknowledge that it kind of sucks for Asher to either have his credit for the song reduced, or go through a great deal of trouble and expense to insinuate himself into legal proceedings conducted by greater powers over issues that are 99.9% someone else's problems.  Yes, he could have done this or that, but it still sucks for Asher either way.  The end.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: mikeddonn on January 13, 2016, 01:05:50 PM
  Brian's legal team advised Brian that they were certain that he would win, and advised him not to settle.   That advice cost Brian $4,250,000.

Lee

More like $9,250,000. His legal fees were said to be about  $5 million. He essentially lost all the lump sum from the publishing case. No wonder he sued his legal team.

Did he win?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 13, 2016, 01:11:04 PM
No idea. I truly hope so.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on January 13, 2016, 01:13:35 PM
Mike saw his chance to make millions in the trial off a weakened BW and went for it. ::)

I am about as big of a Brian fan as you could ever meet, and even I know that not to be true...  Mike was willing to settle for co-credits on all future BB releases and a token amount ($750,000).  Brian's legal team advised Brian that they were certain that he would win, and advised him not to settle.   That advice cost Brian $4,250,000.

Lee

What was the possible logic behind the idea that "Brian could win"? Obviously it's easy in hindsight to say that Brian's lawyers were just taking Brian for a ride and trying to milk him for all he was worth... but what was their stated logical justification for what Brian's lawyers were attempting at the time?  Even the lawyers' bad logic must have had some sort of "spin" to make their pathetic attempt seem plausible.

Were Brian's lawyers saying that the court would find there was no evidence that Mike actually co-wrote any of the songs that he was seeking credit for, and that Mike in fact didn't deserve any credit whatsoever beyond the credited songs he actually already had proper credit for? I'm assuming this is how they "spun" their intended outcome to Brian, if Brian was even paying attention to what they were saying at the time (which IMO is doubtful - lawyers are very easy to tune out, especially for Brian who gives no f*ck about legalities).


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on January 13, 2016, 02:12:56 PM
    Debbie KL,   you my dear are the "clearest" person on this Smilely Smile "COURT OF APPEALS DEBATE TEAM" for you have expressed a concern and interest in what Stephen Love has been doing? The Gentleman responsible for SAVING Brian's LIFE! Well, I can tell you what he has been doing wiith himself... Stephen has been "SURFING" in Hanalei Bay Kauai for the last 20 years... where he also resides! YES... "SURFING"... he moved there, and "SURFS" to maintain his SANITY!! I can also tell you Stephen is well respected by the locals and is considered "FAMILY" (kamaina as they say). I have visited him a number of times, as others have, and we can all attest to the sentiment that he is considered a Local Treasure! Stephen lives with a beautiful girl named Cathy Moe, who also graduated "Magna Cum Laude from U.C.L.A"., and after having worked for Disney for 10 yrs she has written a Horoscope column for a Japanese Magazine for the last 17 yrs! I would like to assure you Debbie that Stephen not only lives a very serene and satisfying life "SURFING" in Kauai, the Garden Island, with his many friends enjoying the Aloha Spirit of Paradise but most importantly is "HAPPY" :) HAPPY :) HAPPY :) Island Life and... SURFING will do that for you! Debbie... Stephen called me and asked me to THANK YOU for your kind words and send you a warm Aloha!

Rocky, for your, and for the readers edification, (as I lived in Hawaii for 13 years, as well as being my current winter local), let me say that  "Kama'aina" means long term resident or "local". The word you sought is "'Ohana" which means family or intimately related group, like a canoe club.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 04:14:40 PM
I don't see why it's so hard to acknowledge that it kind of sucks for Asher to either have his credit for the song reduced, or go through a great deal of trouble and expense to insinuate himself into legal proceedings conducted by greater powers over issues that are 99.9% someone else's problems.  Yes, he could have done this or that, but it still sucks for Asher either way.  The end.
adamghost - sometimes on this board, a poster will toss out a statement...such as "poor-so-and-so, they had some of they royalties cut."  Or, had them re-apportioned.  Because I haven't read this entire file, it is hard to form an opinion.  I don't even know this man, but I appreciate his work.   

And, then the poster blames someone. This leaves the reader wondering why there are not more facts available.  The whole scenario is so convoluted. I guess it would be forming an uninformed opinion. 

They had to go back to the early days when Murry did whatever he did, and unpack all the facts.  And, it seems there were a number of songs in the catalog.  But, entertainment issues are generally a small sphere.  And seems a small and specialized world, so if there were royalties in question, you have to find out how it affects you directly.  Sometimes you have to spend money to defend your rights.

It isn't a matter of insinuating yourself into the process.  If you had a role in the creation of the music, and you are in the industry then you keep tabs on that stuff because you rely on that revenue stream.  And you file with the court to be heard as to your royalty rights and have someone in court saying "objection" to the judge when that song is raised. Or settle a claim "as to you" and let the trial proceed, but your rights remain status quo.  But we know none of this. We only know the result after the trial.     

So, opining on some issue without all the facts, for me is nonsense.  And, people generally don't understand the process well enough to comment except in a hypothetical.

Some day I would like read the line of cases, unless they have been sealed by agreement of the parties. Then I will understand the whole scenario better.  ;)

   


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 04:53:50 PM
I don't see why it's so hard to acknowledge that it kind of sucks for Asher to either have his credit for the song reduced, or go through a great deal of trouble and expense to insinuate himself into legal proceedings conducted by greater powers over issues that are 99.9% someone else's problems.  Yes, he could have done this or that, but it still sucks for Asher either way.  The end.
adamghost - sometimes on this board, a poster will toss out a statement...such as "poor-so-and-so, they had some of they royalties cut."  Or, had them re-apportioned.  Because I haven't read this entire file, it is hard to form an opinion.  I don't even know this man, but I appreciate his work.   

And, then the poster blames someone. This leaves the reader wondering why there are not more facts available.  The whole scenario is so convoluted. I guess it would be forming an uninformed opinion. 

They had to go back to the early days when Murry did whatever he did, and unpack all the facts.  And, it seems there were a number of songs in the catalog.  But, entertainment issues are generally a small sphere.  And seems a small and specialized world, so if there were royalties in question, you have to find out how it affects you directly.  Sometimes you have to spend money to defend your rights.

It isn't a matter of insinuating yourself into the process.  If you had a role in the creation of the music, and you are in the industry then you keep tabs on that stuff because you rely on that revenue stream.  And you file with the court to be heard as to your royalty rights and have someone in court saying "objection" to the judge when that song is raised. Or settle a claim "as to you" and let the trial proceed, but your rights remain status quo.  But we know none of this. We only know the result after the trial.     

So, opining on some issue without all the facts, for me is nonsense.  And, people generally don't understand the process well enough to comment except in a hypothetical.

Some day I would like read the line of cases, unless they have been sealed by agreement of the parties. Then I will understand the whole scenario better.  ;)

   
He would have to have been brought in by Brian's team or file a separate case after the fact.
You, and I and about everyone here opines frequently without all the facts.
Ditto what adamghost said.


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: rockrush3 on January 13, 2016, 04:56:26 PM
  :)     For you Legal Minded Smile Associates who are weighing in on song writing credits and retrying cases with your expert LEGALESE...(If some one can tell me how to "post" a Court Order I will do so). IN the interim I am going to quote directly from Judge Nancy Brown's Exoneration/Expungement Order dated February 22, 1996 which reads in part as follows: Wherefore petitioner hereby requests that defendant be permitted to withdraw his plea of guilty, or that the verdict or finding of guilt be set aside and that a plea of not guilty be entered and that the court dismiss this action pursuant to the above Section 1203.4 of the Penal Code. I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on February 22, 1996 at Los Angeles, California. IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that the plea, verdict, or finding of guilt in the above-entitled action be set aside and vacated and a plea of not guilty be entered; and that the information be, and is hereby dismissed. Dated February 22, 1996. JUDGE OF THE SUPERIOR COURT. (signed BY) Nancy Brown. (also from the transcript of the hearing page 3) The fact that he had no prior record before this case and no subsequent to this case I am going to make a finding that the report from the records on file in this case and from the petition and the exhibits that have been filed that the defendant is eligible for the relief requested. SO I AM GOING TP GRANT THE MOTION TO EXPUNGE. Mr. Vitek: Thank You, Your Honor. I will sign and date this petition. And what will happen -- basically happens, Mr. Love is this: Your plea of guilty, which was entered about ten years ago, is set aside, A NOT GUILTY PLEA IS ENTERED, THE CASE IS DISMISSED, AND YOUR RECORD IS EXPUNGED. Do you understand all of that? THE DEFENDANT: THANK YOU, JUDGE BROWN. THAT'S MUSIC TO MY EARS. :)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: filledeplage on January 13, 2016, 05:05:21 PM
I don't see why it's so hard to acknowledge that it kind of sucks for Asher to either have his credit for the song reduced, or go through a great deal of trouble and expense to insinuate himself into legal proceedings conducted by greater powers over issues that are 99.9% someone else's problems.  Yes, he could have done this or that, but it still sucks for Asher either way.  The end.
adamghost - sometimes on this board, a poster will toss out a statement...such as "poor-so-and-so, they had some of they royalties cut."  Or, had them re-apportioned.  Because I haven't read this entire file, it is hard to form an opinion.  I don't even know this man, but I appreciate his work.    

And, then the poster blames someone. This leaves the reader wondering why there are not more facts available.  The whole scenario is so convoluted. I guess it would be forming an uninformed opinion.  

They had to go back to the early days when Murry did whatever he did, and unpack all the facts.  And, it seems there were a number of songs in the catalog.  But, entertainment issues are generally a small sphere.  And seems a small and specialized world, so if there were royalties in question, you have to find out how it affects you directly.  Sometimes you have to spend money to defend your rights.

It isn't a matter of insinuating yourself into the process.  If you had a role in the creation of the music, and you are in the industry then you keep tabs on that stuff because you rely on that revenue stream.  And you file with the court to be heard as to your royalty rights and have someone in court saying "objection" to the judge when that song is raised. Or settle a claim "as to you" and let the trial proceed, but your rights remain status quo.  But we know none of this. We only know the result after the trial.      

So, opining on some issue without all the facts, for me is nonsense.  And, people generally don't understand the process well enough to comment except in a hypothetical.

Some day I would like read the line of cases, unless they have been sealed by agreement of the parties. Then I will understand the whole scenario better.  ;)

    
He would have to have been brought in by Brian's team or file a separate case after the fact.
You, and I and about everyone here opines frequently without all the facts.
Ditto what adamghost said.
Emily - that may not be true and would be fact-dependent.  I have not seen the complaint.  Often people appear (or their attorney) and motion the court to hear facts that make them a party in the case where it is decided by the court that they have a "stake in the outcome." Most reasonable motions are heard and decided upon.  

Generally, I refrain from opining until I have some facts available.  Almost no one likes to see unfortunate things happen to people.  Absent knowing all the facts and circumstances, that doesn't work for me.  

The case is about 20 years old now.  It is not news.    ;)


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 05:05:34 PM
Hi Rocky. Are you saying you have a file (a pdf or Microsoft word or similar file) you'd like to upload or link to?
If so, will the file show the context of the above post - like the case id or something?


Title: Re: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?
Post by: Emily on January 13, 2016, 05:08:00 PM
I don't see why it's so hard to acknowledge that it kind of sucks for Asher to either have his credit for the song reduced, or go through a great deal of trouble and expense to insinuate himself into legal proceedings conducted by greater powers over issues that are 99.9% someone else's problems.  Yes, he could have done this or that, but it stil