The Smiley Smile Message Board

once again , I am new to this board, so this topic might have been discussed before.  I guess I just wanted to get some people's opinions on which album they believe is superior:  "Today" or "Summer days ( and summer nights)".  Both are very good, but except for Pet sounds, I believe Today is the best Beach Boys album.  It is one great song after another.  I really thin that this was Brian Wilson's first "masterpiece".  Anyway, this topic might not even be interesting, but I thought I would throw it out there. 

Couldn't agree more, although there are several "runners-up" for second best.
If you haven't already, I invite you to check out my essays on the making of these two
albums...www.beachboysarchives.com

Craig

Thanks - i will certainly do that

There's something about both albums which I find reasonably dull. I can enjoy on the two-fers all of the albums except these two. As seperate entities I enjoy them rather much, but together they bore me. I can't find a proper explanation as to why that is, oh well.

To me, 'Today!' works better, conceptually, as an album.  Grouping the rock on one side, and ballads on the other, it feels less like a random collection of singles and album filler, and more of a flowing entity like Pet Sounds.  And the "filler" on the album is just as good as the other material, in some cases better.

'Summer Days' is a good album, but it just feels like a step backward in comparison.  The concept of an album all about summer had been done already, and the songs just don't flow as well as 'Today!'.  And the filler on the album really does seem like filler (Amusement Parks, Bugged At My Ol' Man).  Also, the lack of any serious ballads (The type of song BW was doing the best at this point), is a serious offense as well.  But then you take into consideration that the album is home to California Girls, Salt Lake City and Let Him Run Wild, and all is forgotten. 

Still, it seems like Summer Days and Party were more of a diversion to make Mike and the group happy while Brian plotted something more like "Today".

I would have to disagree with Today being his first "masterpiece". I honestly think that the "All Summer Long" album is where Brian really had it all together. If you look at the track listing, almost all of the songs are gems. (excluding Carl's Big chance and Our fav. Recording sessions) Even today has its flaws. I honestly cant stand Dennis on In the Back of my mind. I wouldnt go so far as to say the song is bad itself, but Dennis' vocal on that track is nauseating.

Also possibly off topic, was  "All Dressed Up for School" an outake of Today! or Summer days?

thanks

windchimes

Aint that the truth. Ive always thought that Summer Days is the most underrated BB album.

today comes together conceptually more than any other album except pet Sounds.  Even the song you refer to ( In the back of my mind) fits well together with such emotional ballads such as "Kiss me baby", "Please let me wonder", and "I'm so young".  All Summer Long is an excellent album, no question about it.  I really think that with Today Brian brought it all up to a higher level. 

You saying that made me want to throw up, funny.

Come on, "I'm bugged at my old man" isn't filler.  How could such a dramatic look into the Wilson family dynamic be filler.  I mean, I'm not somebody who pays a lot of attention to lyrics, but that song is crazy.

Summer Days edges out Today slightly for me, I guess.  It's such a great little intermediary step between the old and the new.  It sets the template for Pet Sounds, in that you start to see the dominating presence of the session musicians, but you still have the wonderful self-contained beauty of Girl Don't Tell Me or You're So Good to Me.  Musically, I think it's a decisive step forward from Today in some ways.  Lyrically, I could care less, really.  I don't know.  It's a hard choice, and fortunately It's not one I really have to make.

lol. was their dad pissed about that song? Or at least embarassed?

"California girls" and "Let Him Run Wild" were very innovative in their time.  Except for that, everything seems to be a step backwards.  The Today album was a step up from all summer long.  They started singing more emotional songs.  The harmonies and arrangements also became more elaborate.  I think that Today is the real precursor to pet sounds, not Summer Days and Summer Nights.

I think that this is an instance of lyrics masking the music beneath.  I just can't agree that the arrangments were more elaborate on Today than Summer Days.  I mean, I love love love the first half of Today, but aside from When I Grow Up, I think all of the songs would fit right on on All Summer Long and nobody would know the difference.  I don't think any song on Summer Days would fit, musically or sonically.  Please Let Me Wonder and In the Back of My Mind plus Kiss Me Baby are the only tracks that are real foreshadowers, musically.  She Knows Me is more of a lyrical signpost.

But on Summer Day, you have songs like Salt Lake City, which has totally throw away (but fantastic) lyrics but a killer track that uses essentially the same musicians that play on California Girls and Let Him Run Wild.  But the Lyrics throw you off.  You're So Good to Me and Girl Don't Tell me are pretty straightforward, but they are unique contributions to the Beach Boys catalog, they never did any other songs in the style of those individual songs again.  Brian never sang a lead like he did on YSGTM again...

I think Party is the real precursor to Pet Sounds. Some stark, heartfelt and simple oldies to clear the creative decks for incredible complexities to come.

I would say that the music for Salt Lake, nad Summer Means New Love, and the vocal arrangement of And Your Dream are very close to PS as well.
Musically, I would say Brian was getting into PS territory as early as the Surfer Girl LP.

...but only if you privilege continuums.  'Summer Days...' is a rockin' and gorgeous sounding album.  'Today!' may seem to indicate a "building" towards something more aesthetically challenging, but isn't such thinking the result of historical interpretation?  I love the fact that BW was a mixed bag of goodies - he was all over the place artistically.  

Ask Ian about 'Party!' which follows both...

EDIT:  Ian, you clearly have ESP.

 ;D

I agree. It just doesn't FIT. Dennis' vocals seem off, for some reason. I wish I could explain why, but they just do.

I'm glad to hear All Summer Long is your favorite...mine too...common ground? I was surprised to see you enjoyed that one so much...since Dennis played drums on most of it...and his voice is all over it too...especially on Girls on the Beach, Little Honda, All Summer Long, I Get Around...to me All Summer Long and Today are very much "Dennis" LP's in that he is very heavily involved, unlike Pet Sounds and Summer Days where his presence is much less. Anyway, glad we can agree on something. 

Jon, you'll be glad to know I spinned "ASL" in my car yesterday, and I'm thinking an essay on that album won't be all that hard to do.  As Josh said, there are some gaps in terms of documentation, but plenty of session tapes have materialized.

It's interesting to look at where Brian was in relation to the band, and just in general, over the course of those three albums:  touring member under immense pressure to churn out the hits ("ASL"), expanding musical genius who gives up the road halfway through production ("Today"), and studio-only savant ("SDSN").  Not to mention the drugs...I think it was during "Today" that Brian started smoking pot, and we know he dropped acid for the first time during the "SDSN" era.

Craig

In my opinion, Today AND All Summer Long have it all over Summer Days. The latter just seemed too rushed, and was really a "sidestep" when Brian kept making huge leaps forward. Yes, there are of course several gems, but Today and All Summer Long basically lack any filler.

The most satisying album to hear through, after Pet Sounds, is All Summer Long. If pressed, I'd even take it over Today. It was a giant leap from Shut Down Volume II, and an essay from Craig would be another great read.

To really analogize it, Summer Days is kind of like Beatles For Sale to me; a tired, rushed effort, still MILES beyond anything anyone else was doing, but not a great jump forward...

I think it may have something to with the result of the double-tracked vocals.  On the SOT set, I think he sounds better before the double is added.  The vocal also sounds much louder than the beautiful backing track in the finished product.  I wonder how it would've come off had Brian or Carl done the vocal.  Carl doesn't have any leads on TODAY, does he?

We need some love for the backing track of Girl From NYC.  Lyrically, yes, a throwback, but Brian Wilson had never done such full, rich uptempo tracks before then.  I think that the production style was still growing.

BTW -- this thread seems to assume that the best BB albums were PS or before.  Remember the contingent here who were blown away by later works that are to them as good if not better (i.e. Sunflower).

I'm in the "Today" camp myself.  I rate it and "Friends" as my favorite Beach Boy albums.  Yes, even over "Pet Sounds".  (Of course, if "SMiLE" had been finished I'm sure that would have been my favorite Beach Boy album.  Why even in it's unfinished state it's still my favorite.)

But back to "Today"... I love that album so much because it has the best of both Beach Boys' worlds: the great fun-party-upbeat-dance tunes and the achingly beautiful songs and melancholy of "Pet Sounds".  Granted, it does have the clunker of the Earl Leaf track, and I've never really gotten into "In The Back Of My Mind", but the rest of the album is super tight.  It just all fits and flows together until those last two numbers.  "Summer Days", on the other hand, comes across as a bit more loosely recorded overall to me.  Undoubtedly there are absolutely great tracks on there, but I just get the feeling that overall the album wasn't as well thought out or put together as "Today" was, or "Pet Sounds" (or "Friends" or "Wild Honey" or even "Smiley Smile") would be.

Love and merci,   Dan Lega

On SD/SN, the tracks from 'Salt Lake City' to 'Summer Means New Love' are an absolute murderer's row of tunes  the rest isn't too bad either.) I can't think of too many records by any other artists that have such stunning variety and quality. That album isn't a step backwards; as has already been asserted, the sound and musical complexity of the tracks was an advance from the previous album. And just because the emotional timbre had changed to something less serious than side 2 of Today does not means that SD/SN should be taken less seriously.

No, it wasn't. "You're So Good To Me" is a simple rocker, and the chords and arrangement would have fit well back on Shut Down Volume II. "Then I Kissed Her," as far as covers go, is nowhere near "I'm So Young." "Girl Don't Tell Me" is a nice song, don't get me wrong, but there is nothing musically complex about it. It doesn't even have a signature Wilson key change throughout the whole tune, and the chords don't venture outside of A-G-D and E, with a quick minor chord gracing the chorus. "Girl From New York City" and "Salt Lake City" match up with "Good To My Baby" and "Don't Hurt My Little Sister" as not quite filler but not quite classics, either.

"Let Him Run Wild" and the opening of "California Girls" are the only musically complex parts; the bridge of "Summer Means New Love" is sweet, but not much different than anything Brian had been doing. "Help Me Rhonda" is an improvement upon the original, but how many albums repeat a song from the album before? Maybe ones that are hurting for truly fresh material?

I believe it is a sidestep, not a step backward, and is more of a holding pattern disc with a few gems. Had "Little Girl I Once Knew" made the album, it would have strenghtened it considerably, as that is complex and forward-reaching. One of BW's best compositions.

Fortunately, musical progression isn't judged by the number of chords used in a song or if there is a key change.  Name one song the Beach Boys did that sounds like Girl Don't Tell Me.  It's a sound Brian hadn't tried before, and for me, that's the kind of thing that makes SDSN a step forward.  An expansion of the vocabulary.  Perhaps that's why the album seems disjointed to some people, it's a feeling-out record.  But even when Brian's feeling out where he wants to go, he's going forward.

I of course respect your opinion and all you have done - but I disagree about Girl Don't Tell Me. A sound that Brian hadn't tried before - true. Acoustic guitar, simple chords, no harmony vocals. I don't think it's a step forward in the traditional sense, but I guess if you subscribe to the make-it-simpler-and-that's-more-complex school of thought, then it is a step forward. Like Some may consider Smiley Smile a step forward off the original Smile material. I just don't.

Well, of course, Brian came up with "Girl Don't Tell Me" after hearing "Ticket To Ride", right? No one can deny that. The genius was in coming up with an even more appealing melody line to the verse than the Beatles did. The production is much more modest, but the wistfulness of the song is true to its lyrics whereas the Beatles' melody and vocal arrangement seem to be at odds with the lyrical subject matter of their song. So, in a way, Brian's rip-off is an improvement on the original.

I don't understand why people find "In The Back Of My Mind" unappealing; it's one of the finest tracks Brian ever cut and Dennis' vocals sound quite heartfelt. It would have been stellar with Brian or Carl on lead, but I'm happy that Dennis gets to open and close "Today".

I don't.  I subscribe to the make-it-different-and-that's-different school of thought.  So many bands do the same thing over and over, same instrumentation, same production, etc.  And Girl Don't Tell Me is a genuine departure from other paths Brian was following.  And that's a sign of a musician that's progressing.  That's what's so fascinating about the Shut Down II-Pet Sounds period in general.  Each album, you have the retreads, the big steps, the one-offs...it's never boring.  An exciting time.

I'll give you that one! In 3 years, Brian did more than, arguably, most others have done in a lifetime.

Hope you are enjoying your new position.

Sorry, no. Ticket to Ride has it all over Girl Don't Tell Me. They're both in the key of A, and they both have "hi-hi-hi" in the chorus, but that is where the comparison ends.

And the arrangement of Ticket to Ride is not at odds with the lyrics! Quite the opposite! Ringo's cutting-edge drum pattern, suggested by Paul, is about tension and yearning, and gives the song that atmosphere.

And as far as the lyrics go, the line "I met you last summer when I came up to stay with my Gran" is a great example of how they just don't hold a candle to Ticket's lyrics. 

I was riding in the car with my dad a few weeks ago when he was out here, and we were listening to the Today/SDSN twofer, and when Girl Don't Tell Me came on, he suddenly gasped and said something like "Oh wow, I remember this song.  I really connected with it.  That happened to me so many times at summer camps. " and he went on to desccribe how the song meant something to him.

As I've mentioned, I don't care about lyrics, but I thought it was interesting that of all the songs on SDSN, the one my dad remembered with the most emotion was that one.  So the lyrics hold a candle to "Ticket" to at least a few of us.

Man...when I read that post I had to respond. Tell your dad I can definitely relate. The first time I heard Girl Don't tell Me...or the first time it really penetrated into my being was probably 1974...and it nearly made me cry. I was 16 or 17 and crying was truly an uncool thing to do...but I knew exactly what Brian was trying to communicate. I'd met a girl in the summer of '72 while vacationing on a lake in the California mountains with my folks. And we had our intense week of sweet teen passion. Her name was Robin and I can still feel her warm skin, and soft blonde hair. I was 15 and she was 16. I can remember the thrill of telling my friends back home about this awesome girl I'd met. And I remember the excruciating sadness when she didn't respond to the two letters I wrote her. I was crushed. The next summer I went back to the same place with my folks...and guess what? Robin was there again too...her hair was longer...and she obviously felt no guilt about not writing me back. I was pissed, but I still told her to jump on the back of my Honda and ride into the woods with me. I made out with her again, and we laughed and ran around together just as we had the year before...but it seemed so hollow in comparison. Deep down I knew that to Robin I was just temporary fun, and that once I was gone she wouldn't think about me, and wouldn't write me. That was the last time I saw her.

When I heard Girl Don't Tell Me it was like the Beach Boys had reached right into my life...into my heart...into the most personal place where NO ONE went... and they said 'yeah, its sad Jon...but its a beautiful sadness.' Its that kind of bitterweet sadness you learn to cherish as time goes by. Once life sands away all the rough edges and all the truly new and fresh experiences are in your past...the memories of warm sparkling summer nights with girls like Robin stand out. And every time I hear that song she comes back to me, and every time I hear it I cherish the beautiful sadness I still feel inside...three decades later. When I reflect on things like this I'm sure it may seem silly to some...but I feel like Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys gave me so much. Like the chance to revisit how Robin broke my heart..and how time takes that pain and turns into something kind of sweet.       

Definately Today. Side A takes the old Beach Boys rock 'n' roll sound to a new level, side B is a great Pet Sounds preview.

Summer Days has some good songs but is overall definately a step back. It's almost (?) like Brian wanted to get it done with so he could start working on his superior next project...

Beautiful, man. Beautiful.

Wow. That was an amazing, amazing post. Matches anything I have ever read about the power of music. Thanks for sharing that.

Doesn't seem silly at all, Jon.  Thanks for sharing that amazing personal insight.

Craig

I think many of us may have felt what Jon described so beautifully which is why I think "Girl Don't Tell Me" works emotionally where "Ticket To Ride" misses somehow. Not that I don't like "Ticket..."; obviously the production and vocals are better than on "Girl...", but that "girl that's driving me mad is going away...YEAH" inflection sounds detached even if the lyrics are arguably better.

As far as similarities between the two songs go, I think that chiming guitar break kind of blows Brian's "cover".

Damnit. I just read Jon's post and was going to say how it was amazing, touching. But about 50,000 (give or take 49,997) people already did. Now I'd look like a copycat.

But it was. Nice post, Jon. The kind of thing pop/rock music is actually all about, as far as I'm concerned.

The chorus lyrics give it away too. Both have the title of the song repeated 3 times and both end with similar sounding words (right - ride)...

I agree with Windchimes. Dennis' vocal just seems to sit on top of the track without really blending with the music. It almost sounds like he's singing a different song. I much prefer the instrumental version of  In the Back of my Mind. Now that is just a perfect piece of music as it stands.

I remember back in 1972, here in the UK, buying an import double LP, I can't remember from which country, it comprised of Shut Down vol 2 & Today.
Both albums had two tracks missing, Shut Down 2 missed 'In The Parking Lot' & 'Cassius Love vs Sonny Wilson and Today missed 'In The Back Of My Mind' & 'Bull Session With Big Daddy'.
That version of Today would have suited some of these people.
The album was called 'FUN FUN FUN / DANCE DANCE DANCE. wonder if anyone else remembers it?

     They had that type of thing here in the US, too.  They were single LP's, though, and every one of them had two tracks missing.

           Love and merci,  Dan Lega

'In The Back Of My Mind" is in my opinion the best track on Today. It's also of serious competition to any of Brian's strong and moving ballads. I love Dennis' vocal on that song, though it took me some time to appreciate it fully. His bits toward the end are nothing short of breathtaking. The song is also full of musical things which Brian had only slightly touched on before.

I think that import may well have been American Dan, it was so long ago and I no longer have it.
It was two single LPs sealed together in cellophane with the opening on one sleeve the wrong end so they could be sealed back to back.
If I remember correctly the picture on one sleeve showed them playing somewhere live on stage late 60s/early 70s.

I agree completely.  I love ITBOMM.  It's actually my favorite track on Today, along with "I'm So Young" (even though that's a cover) and "When I Grow Up." 

I think the Summer Days album is absolutely fantastic.  I think the instrumental tracks were considerably more interesting than on Today -- aeijzstche is right about the variety in the presentation of Girl Don't Tell Me and You're So Good to Me.  The only track on Summer Days that leaves me cold is Then I Kissed Her.  While a lot of the lyrics on the album are of the "fun 'n' sun" variety, many of them (especially California Girls, Salt Lake City, Amusement Parks) are the apotheosis of that lyrical style. 

Besides which, I have never been able to see the great emotional depth or maturity of Please Let Me Wonder, Kiss Me Baby, or She Knows Me Too Well.  Yes, they are ballads, but are their lyrics really that much different from many other early-to-mid sixties teenage angst/love songs?  Don't get me wrong, I think those are excellent songs, but I feel that an absurd cult has built up around them and "Today side two" (a cult started by David Leaf, it seems) that blows their significance way out of proportion and unfairly denigrates Summer Days as a "step backward on the road to Pet Sounds."

This may be blasphemy, but I will take "California Girls" and "Let Him Run Wild" over any tracks on Today or Pet Sounds -- I don't think Brian (or anyone else) has ever improved on those two cuts, which represent (to me) absolute pop/rock nirvana.

Please Let Me Wonder is a song I really identify with.. I may have interpreted it wrong, but it brings to mind for me the fact that with nearly every girl I've ever had feelings for, I didn't want to tell her, even if I thought she might've had feelings for me. I'd rather continue the relationship platonically and have it eventually fade away than tell her my feelings and have her tell me she doesn't feel the same. That "For so long I thought about it / and now I just can't live without it / this beautiful image I have of you" line speaks to me so much, like 'I don't want to ruin what I think it between us by finding out that it's not really there'.

The last time I asked a girl out, I was 15 years old.

I was reading Rolling Stone's top 500 albums of all time, and Today! was one of the albums.  All Summer Long, and Summer Days were NOT on the list.  I feel vindicated and right in saying that Today! was Brian's first masterpiece. 

Well if Rolling Stone said so...

I would like a list of names.

Who did Rolling Stone pick to decide which albums are the most important?

Have you thought about getting a really nice call girl? That's pretty much where I'm at.

Well, I'm thinking about getting one.

Eh, I figure I'll still be alive when women finally realize they're allowed to make the first move.

Might take a few decades, though..