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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Howdy Doody on January 01, 2006, 09:10:07 AM



Title: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Howdy Doody on January 01, 2006, 09:10:07 AM
 I am a big fan of Carol Kaye's bass playing on so many of her brilliant hot vintage sessions.  But recently I've been wondering just who has been more of a pioneering  individual stylist in the shaping of pop culture and bass technique Carol Kaye or James Jameson? Who has had the greater cultural impact?  I have been listening to some of Marvin Gaye's music that Jameson performed on(and  I feel he should have got a tad more creative credit for) especially "What's going on," and quite frankly I feel he has had more of an impact on the sound of modern-era bass and it's applications in the recording studio.  Don't get me wrong however Carol Kaye is, and always will be remembered fondly.  Ray Pohlman as well was a fine musician IMO.  What is your favorite songs Carol Kaye performed on? As well if you dig Jameson what songs are your favorites of his? Pet Sounds is a given for Carol as some of her best contributions to BW's legacy.  I love most of Carol's more well-known sessions but a discussion of any and all bass meisters would be a fun trip for fans of the beautiful BASS guitar.  I think BW told Carol exactly what to play though she acts like BW begrudged he of creative credit.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: HighOnLife on January 01, 2006, 09:15:31 AM
Jamerson, to me.

The playing on 'What's Goin' On' is downright stunning.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: jazzfascist on January 01, 2006, 10:12:49 AM
I would say James Jamerson too, it's like he created and institutionalized a whole style of bassplaying by himself, I wouldn't really know what songs Carol Kaye played on if somebody didn't tell me. She and the other session musicians of the "Wrecking Crew" probably did more than they were credited for, but on Brian's sessions it seems, that they more or less played what they were told, and didn't have so much creative input, even though Don Randi suggested the stacatto playing on "GOK", but still. Maybe the creative environments of the LA studios and Motown were different so that the studio musicians on Motown contributed more, I don't know.

Søren


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Aum Bop Diddit on January 01, 2006, 10:54:12 AM
I am no expert on bass guitar, but it would seem clear in terms of "impact", James Jamerson is on the list you count on one hand (who else -- Bootsy, Entwhistle, McCartney, Jaco?  I speak only from my frame of reference.). Possessing the greatness of ability as well as the individual style that for whatever reason moves things and connects  in terms of influence.

But that does not diminish Carole Kaye's extraordinary playing (I know there are murky waters to navigate with her sometimes -- but didn't she play on Motown stuff too?).  Also she is in a sense a band member -- take her in the context as a part of the Wrecking Crew and all those great records.  As with Jamerson -- he an absolute monster on his instrument -- but he is also playing with one of the greatest drummers ever (Benny Benjamin) and rhythm guitarists and keyboardists and writers and arrangers....  And these guys were somewhat interchangeable -- there are great Motown tracks you think have him on it but don't.

But he was the best!  And I trust you all saw "Standing in the Shadows of Motown".  Flawed (Ben Harper?  Etc.?), but worthy.  These guys deserve so much more recognition and bucks (ten dollars a song!).


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Jason on January 01, 2006, 11:21:32 AM
James Jamerson by a long shot.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: the captain on January 01, 2006, 11:27:11 AM
I am no expert on bass guitar, but it would seem clear in terms of "impact", James Jamerson is on the list you count on one hand (who else -- Bootsy, Entwhistle, McCartney, Jaco?  I speak only from my frame of reference.). Possessing the greatness of ability as well as the individual style that for whatever reason moves things and connects  in terms of influence.

But that does not diminish Carole Kaye's extraordinary playing (I know there are murky waters to navigate with her sometimes -- but didn't she play on Motown stuff too?).  Also she is in a sense a band member -- take her in the context as a part of the Wrecking Crew and all those great records.  As with Jamerson -- he an absolute monster on his instrument -- but he is also playing with one of the greatest drummers ever (Benny Benjamin) and rhythm guitarists and keyboardists and writers and arrangers....  And these guys were somewhat interchangeable -- there are great Motown tracks you think have him on it but don't.

But he was the best!  And I trust you all saw "Standing in the Shadows of Motown".  Flawed (Ben Harper?  Etc.?), but worthy.  These guys deserve so much more recognition and bucks (ten dollars a song!).

This post hurts my eyes.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on January 01, 2006, 12:11:14 PM
In terms of playing style, Jamerson wins easily.

But in terms of impact on "bass playing" I think Carol has had a more influential "sound" than Jamerson.  The way she played pretty much single handedly defined the bass tone of the west coast for the rest of the 60s and into the 70s.

Just my opinion though.  Ray Pohlman's always my favourite, anyway.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: I. Spaceman on January 01, 2006, 01:06:31 PM
Jamerson.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Aum Bop Diddit on January 01, 2006, 08:35:44 PM


This post hurts my eyes.

Good.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Daniel S. on January 01, 2006, 11:21:57 PM
So what are Carol Kaye's shining moments on the bass?

With Jamerson all you have to do is listen to I Was Made To Lover Her or Bernadette to hear what a genius he is.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: I. Spaceman on January 02, 2006, 12:56:38 AM
I would say The Beat Goes On and Hawaii Five-O.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: SMiLEY on January 02, 2006, 01:18:19 AM
It's kind of a Sophie's choice, isn't it?


I'll take Jamerson, because he could cooklike no other.

Carol is great, of course, and I'm glad to see Ray Pohlman mentioned since he is very underrated.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on January 02, 2006, 02:49:40 AM
Mission Impossible is a nice Carol moment.

You have to give Carol a lot of credit for all the TV themes and Movie sountracks she did.  It's amazing how many she did.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: I. Spaceman on January 02, 2006, 03:01:16 AM
That avatar is diabolical and makes me want to grind a bottletop into my cornea.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Jeff Mason on January 02, 2006, 06:33:53 AM
So what are Carol Kaye's shining moments on the bass?

With Jamerson all you have to do is listen to I Was Made To Lover Her or Bernadette to hear what a genius he is.

Anyone else see the irony in this post....?   ;)


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Dancing Bear on January 02, 2006, 08:57:56 AM
So what are Carol Kaye's shining moments on the bass?

With Jamerson all you have to do is listen to I Was Made To Lover Her or Bernadette to hear what a genius he is.

Anyone else see the irony in this post....?   ;)

Not me. Please enlighten us.  ;)


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: andy on January 02, 2006, 09:00:58 AM
Is it possible that Carol is just thinking about playing on the BB cover version of IWMTLH, or does she specifically state being there with Stevie and others?


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: the captain on January 02, 2006, 09:01:07 AM
Is it related to this?

That's a big controversial topic.  Ask Josh if he shows up around here.  The guy who was the touring bassist then (forget his name) probably did some tracks.  Doubt Bruce did much.

Theory:  Carole Kaye did bass on I Was Made To Love Her and then confused that with the Motown version.  It would explain her vociferous insistence for taking credit for that one.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Jeff Mason on January 02, 2006, 10:07:20 AM
Irony -- you state that I Was Made To Love Her is your favorite Jamerson moment when that is in fact the track that Carol Kaye most strenously claims she did.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: HighOnLife on January 02, 2006, 10:15:29 AM
Carol Kaye said she played on Surfin' USA too.

 ::)


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Daniel S. on January 02, 2006, 10:17:48 AM
I'm well aware that Carol Kaye tries to take credit for those songs. Except that she's full of sh*t and everyone knows Jamerson played those sessions.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Jeff Mason on January 02, 2006, 03:02:26 PM
True, true.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: jazzfascist on January 02, 2006, 05:35:20 PM
Two of my favorite Jamerson basslines are the ones from "Aint That Peculiar" and "Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Da Day", Carol Kaye hasn't claimed them yet, has she?

Søren


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: donald on January 03, 2006, 11:07:10 AM
Seems like I just addressed this on another post somewhere but.............

Carol Kaye plays like a music teacher.  Jamerson plays like a Jazz musician.

And if Kaye actually DID play on some of those tracks such as I Was Made To Love Her, she deliberately and very handily copied Jamersons Style.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Daniel S. on January 07, 2006, 12:10:08 PM
What are Carol Kaye's best bass moments with the Beach Boys?


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on January 07, 2006, 12:28:42 PM
I would say her best Beach Boys moment is "Let Him Run Wild."  It's a great line and she interprets it with panache.

The rest of the great moments she was involved with are really group efforts, between her and Lyle Ritz' string bass.  Sloop John B comes to mind.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: JRauch on January 07, 2006, 12:33:00 PM
"Good Vibrations" has a great bass-line too.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: I. Spaceman on January 07, 2006, 12:38:41 PM
Please Let Me Wonder and Salt Lake City.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on January 07, 2006, 12:51:24 PM
Quote
"Good Vibrations" has a great bass-line too.

Yeah, but the vast majority of the released version is played by Ray Pohlman and Lyle Ritz.  Carol just played on the choruses of GV.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 07, 2006, 03:45:20 PM
Quote
"Good Vibrations" has a great bass-line too.

Yeah, but the vast majority of the released version is played by Ray Pohlman and Lyle Ritz.  Carol just played on the choruses of GV.

"just played on the choruses of GV"

Still a credit most bass players in the world think very highly of! Quite an awesome bass line, that chorus.

I like "The Little Girl I Once Knew". And "California Girls" is just right in the pocket.

(...that is Carol, isn't it?)


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 07, 2006, 03:56:42 PM
Seems like I just addressed this on another post somewhere but.............

Carol Kaye plays like a music teacher.  Jamerson plays like a Jazz musician.


That's just not true - one thing Carol Kaye's bass playing always had was a groove, and she got so many gigs because, like Jamerson and the other greats, she knew whose job it was in the band to push the groove ahead.

I don't like that "plays like a music teacher" comment.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on January 07, 2006, 04:12:30 PM
Quote
(...that is Carol, isn't it?)

Yes.

I agree, she doesn't play "like a music teacher."  My mom does, she's a piano teacher, and she's never quite nailed the swing or shuffle rhythms.  It's too metronomic or something.

Carol had a great sense of groove.  I think Help Me, Rhonda is actually the best example of that.  Not only Carol, but also the whole scene.  The swing they put into it, the accent on the "And of two" is so subtle.

You put that song in the hands of people that hadn't played a lot of big band (or jazz, or whatever), and it's not as rhythmically dynamic, for sure.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: I. Spaceman on January 07, 2006, 04:41:43 PM
I don't like that "plays like a music teacher" comment.


Well, I don't like your tie!


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on January 07, 2006, 06:44:45 PM
I don't like that "plays like a music teacher" comment.


Well, I don't like your tie!

This one?
(http://store.drumbum.com/media/piano-piano-tie.gif)

Besides being music-teacher approved, it also plays "We Built This City On Rock And Roll" when you squeeze it.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: I. Spaceman on January 07, 2006, 06:54:02 PM
YES!


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Daniel S. on January 07, 2006, 07:47:11 PM
Yeah, but Jamerson has such a distinct style. His bass playing is really powerful, like an earthquake.  Carol Kaye seems to just blend into the background, I mean it seems hard to pick a song shows off the Carol Kaye sound. I mean what song really shows off the Carol Kaye sound? Maybe she wasn't given the type of material, like the Motown songs, that would allow her to show off.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on January 07, 2006, 08:06:10 PM
Didn't various people just mention songs that feature her sound?  The Mission Impossible theme is her sound.  Nobody else sounds like that.

Plus, you have to remember, Carol's sound quickly became ripped off by every producer on the west coast.  She's not exaggerating that she put a lot of string bass players out of a lot of sessions, and almost single handedly started the decline of having two or three bass players on a session.  Her playing showed producers they could have a nice low end as well as an attack.



Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Daniel S. on January 07, 2006, 08:18:15 PM
I just downloaded the Mission Impossible TV theme and  I have to say that isn't exactly virtuouso playing is it? Again, I'm not saying it's her fault because she has to stay in step with the song she's playing. It's not Motown. But are you trying to tell me that comes anywhere close to Jamerson? Maybe he had more of chance to show off and blast that song out into the stratosphere, but Paul McCartney considered Jamerson and Brian Wilson to be his big bass playing influences.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on January 07, 2006, 08:25:27 PM
I thought we were talking about sound, not "virtuosity," whatever that is.  To me, the virtuosity that matters in this case is a virtuosity that both Carol and James had in spades; they were virtuosic at playing what other people wanted them to play.  Until they get to face off in an afterlife bass chops showdown, that's really as far as you can go.

Quote
Paul McCartney considered Jamerson and Brian Wilson to be his big bass playing influences.

I don't think Paul was too concerned with who actually played Brian's lines, and probably didn't know that Ray and Carol  (uh, and Al) basically took over for Brian in 1963.  Interesting too, that Brian considers Carol his biggest bass playing (and bassline writing) influence.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: PMcC on January 08, 2006, 02:17:18 AM
Find out who made the most money during their sessions, and you will find the 'hottest' session bassist....


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: jazzfascist on January 08, 2006, 05:12:00 AM
Find out who made the most money during their sessions, and you will find the 'hottest' session bassist....

If you measure it that way it's probably Kaye.
But with regards to her sound she may have helped to save money for some producers, but she doesn't seem to be as creative a player as Jamerson.

Søren


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on January 08, 2006, 06:23:43 AM
I don't think it's fair to measure creativity by using what people played as hired session musicians.  I mean, what's our criteria?  16th notes?  Chromaticism?  Phrasing?  If people are intent on choosing a winner, let's have some solid, hard core criteria.  Otherwise it's just taste.


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: jazzfascist on January 08, 2006, 08:18:05 AM
I don't think it's fair to measure creativity by using what people played as hired session musicians.  I mean, what's our criteria?  16th notes?  Chromaticism?  Phrasing?  If people are intent on choosing a winner, let's have some solid, hard core criteria.  Otherwise it's just taste.

It seems from some of your answers, that Carol Kaye's creativity lay in her ability to help get a good sound in the studio, whereas with Jamerson he seemed to be more musically creative, in that he together with Benny Benjamin created a lot of the rhytmtracks for Motown and in the process also created a whole new style of bassplaying. I guess it depends on what qualities you think are the most important for a studio-bassplayer.

Søren


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: cta on January 11, 2006, 10:47:41 PM
Man, why do people get offended if someone says that Kaye or Jameson plays like whoever or how she plays it?  Good god.  We all hear slight differences in music.  Yes, Kaye, in some instances plays like a music teacher.  Not always, but in some - but hey, that's what my ears hear.   For all I know, my ears just might suck.  The wife says I can't hear jack schitt anyway...but that's in her mind. :P

I hear Kaye's playing very alive in Surf's Up for the first movement.   It is a truly copied sound from many bassists in the studio field of that time.   I really like that sound.  HOWEVER, it was up to a producer like Spector or Wilson to craft the tone of it and direct her how to play it. 

She's not like Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, Mike Watt or Les Claypool where they have their own sounds and make things up on the fly. 


Title: Re: Jameson vs. Kaye-who was the hottest session bassist?
Post by: audiodrome on January 14, 2006, 06:01:24 AM
I love Carol Kaye's bass sound on the "Hogan's Heroes" theme  :)