The Smiley Smile Message Board

He is a very polarizing figure in the Beach Boys world. Some would also call him destructive. But in the mad rush to refute everything he has claimed, I wonder if there are people here who think that maybe Leaf got it mostly right about Brian and the band?  I know he gets very little love here but there have to be some people who appreciate the stuff he has done whether it be his book, his work on various TV specials, CD reissues, etc. It's not as if we're talking about Geoffrey Guliano! At least Leaf knew the members of the Beach Boys.

me.

oh wait, i didnt read his book.

Just exactly what do you think David Leaf was wrong about? There might be some disagreement among fans based on how they interpret and expand on what he wrote, but I think his writings have proven more than 99.99% factually accurate.

I have noticed in my time lurking (and reading old posts) that he and his ideas aren't very popular. I don't want to get into why, but I was wondering if there are people here who feel the opposite.

Personally, I think he is unfairly maligned.

And here's me thinking that Leaf played and plays an important positive role in the world of BW. Yes, there may have been conflicts... it would have been humanly very odd if these would be totally absent.

Leaf laid bare the problematic life Brian had, his very strained and dualistic relationship with his father, his being a victim of vicious childhood abuse, and the resulting need to self-medicate, IIRC.

And I didn't even read 'The BBs And The California Myth'.

I think it is a matter of the pendulum just swinging too far one way.  And then an inevitable backlash occurs and the pendulum swings in the other direction.  David's book was (and is) great, as it illuminated Brian's contributions as the genius and architect behind the boys (a view which we all take for granted now) but it (like Derek Taylor's views before it) did further the Brian and a bunch of assholes view that seemed to catch fire.  This line of thinking, while providing insight to the unique gifts that Brian possessed, unfortunately did more to minimize the important contributions of the other boys.  

For me it is all about having an balanced assessment of what everyone brought to the table.  

At any rate,  I loved David's book (I have both editions) as well as his Smile doc.  While both have a few weak points and flaws - the world of The Beach Boys is a better place because of David's contributions.  Besides his book, liner notes and Smile doc, his PERSONAL support and help with Brian's career has helped us all enjoy a renaissance in Brian's and The Beach Boys' later chapter and for that I am grateful.  

I think the Beach Boys diehard fan community can be summed up with the expression about the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction. It always does. And then it seesaws back and forth. Hyperbole and then the backlash, the return, and then back to the backlash. On various subjects.

David Leaf is a prophet. David Leaf is full of sh*t.
Mike Love is evil. Mike Love is above criticism.
Brian Wilson is an infallible genius. Brian Wilson is equal to the rest of the band.
Dennis Wilson has no talent. Dennis Wilson is the Messiah.
etc.

Look, even this post is hyperbole!

I think David Leaf was accurate with a very large percentage of what he wrote. Did he go a little too far with his Brian bias? Yes, but only a little. The only part of what he wrote that I really believed in at the time, but, in my opinion, never came to fruition was his belief that Brian would eventually come back and compose great things again. Leaf's book was written after Love You and right before M.I.U. Brian never equaled or exceeded the quality of Love You, again in my opinion.

That's more or less how I feel about his contributions.  I think his book was probably also important in helping the reevaluation of the Beach Boys as serious artists (or, rather, Brian Wilson as a serious artist), and my own first exposure to Beach Boys history was probably from his liner notes to the two-fer rereleases.   But in addition to what you say, I think that sometime around the release of Gettin' In Over My Head and the Smile tour he became more of a PR guy for Brian.  Maybe it was just that I had already gotten a better sense of Beach Boys history on my own by the time those things came out, but his Smile documentary seemed more like an advertisement than a useful historical account of events.

I also get the impression that a number of people who post here have had rather negative personal experiences with him, which might be one cause of his unpopularity here.

David is a good egg!

I don't know what to believe about these guys half the time. Heck, they even believe different things about themselves at times.

All I know is they made some awesome records and had some awesome problems. Maybe the most epic band of all time for ups and downs. You name it, they had it happen to them or around them or linked to them. Everything apart from being murdered. Unless you count self-murder, of course.

I swear they would make the best soap opera ever.

Leaf seems to me like he told their story pretty accurately. I know he sympathizes with Brian more in his writings, but that's easy to do. Brian makes a very sympathetic central figure when you are telling the Beach Boys story.

I wonder what happened with David Leaf. How come he fell out of touch around the mid-2000's. Was there some kind of falling out between he and the Wilson's? Was it mutually agreed upon that they go separate ways? I wonder what happened. Leaf and Brian were like good buds for awhile - going to restaurants and ballgames and movies and hanging out at Brian's house together. Maybe just another case of someone falling out of Brian's inner circle. Probably can happen to anybody. Leaf did so much for Brian and his career though. Too bad.

last I talked to him, not long ago, he was running this   http://www.lslproductions.com/

David's book was the first in-depth account of the BBs I ever read and for a long time it was the only in-depth book out there. As someone stated above it was probably responsible for a re-evaluation of brian and the band by many critics and rock music authorities, which would have permeated through the media to a fan base. He kept the faith, and preached it, at a time in the band's history when they could have disappears off the radar.he also believed in Brian's potential for renewed greatness, effectively prophesising this Indian summer Brian's career has enjoyed since … well, probably starting around the time of the 2000 Pet Sounds tour?

Leaf deserves a heck of a lot of the credit for the rejuvenation of Brian's solo career in my book, even if he's not around right now in the thick of things.

...which is the best possible summary of the role of David Leaf in the history of BW and the BBs.

Heartfelt thanks, John, and what was the name of that single malt again? Arbeg? At any rate, we'll have one someday, I promise.

I think that's a few years old. Unless I'm badly mistaken, this is more current:

http://www.leafprod.com/ (http://www.leafprod.com/)

I appreciate his recognition of Brian as one of the absolute best songwriters of the last 50 years, I just wish he hadn't done so while going out of his way to slight everyone else involved with the band. The last time I watched the Beautiful Dreamer doc I found it infuriatingly inaccurate or greatly exaggerated in Brian's favor at times. Just, no.

It must be said he has much praise for all the other Beach Boys in his twofer liner notes, especially Dennis.

That's the flip side of the coin. And you can only speculate on the long term fallout… did the Wilson camp's adoption of Leaf's pro-Wilson bias ultimately, directly or indirectly, estrange Brian further from the rest of the band? Might we have had more BBs product involving Wilson in recent years? Is there still resentment over the "BW & 5 others" legacy?

Or we only know half the story? Do Brian, Mike, Al and David Leaf all hangout at the same parties together? While we buy the public image?

More like sometime around the release of BW's first solo album in '88! In fact, one year-end review of that album referred to him (without actually naming him by name) as a "hand-picked ass polisher". I've only read that once, in a convenience store at the end of 1988, but I've never forgotten it! Have you ever read the (Leaf-penned) official Sire Records promo packet that accompanied that release? If not, there's probably a copy or two availalbe on eBay. Informative, but almost worshipful.

Hm. But didn't all of us diehards see that album, and BW, as faultless, the comeback LP as something like the Second Coming at the time? I am sure Leaf wasn't exactly alone in this...

Promulgating, if not actually orginating, the myth that the band played on very few of their pre-Smileey Smile releases, notably stating as a fact that Hal Blaine, and not Dennis, played in "LDC" ?

I find Leaf sort of creepy. But that's just me. It's more the type of sycophantic relationship he formed with Brian than the book he wrote, which I only read once and don't remember well. I wonder why he's no longer in Brian's inner circle, when they were once so tight.

Yes, indeed. And in his book as well. IIRC, it is the Pet Sounds/Smile and Brian's Back  chapters that are the most biasedin favor of Brian and that is (as someone points out) it is very easy to sympathize with Brian. But he rightfully praises the Boys for picking up the pieces on the road and in the studio during the Brother Years. People do tend to forget that.

Oh and David wrote this about Dennis back in 1984.

http://www.danaddington.com/denny/requiem.html

And he sang on Bambu. That alone makes him cooler than you.

After David got involved with Brian on a personal level, to what extent did his advocacy of Brian help get the Beach Boys more respect from critics and the general public, or help get Beach Boys projects like the 2fer bonus tracks, the Good Vibrations box set with Smile tracks released for the first time, the Endless Harmony documentary and CD, the Pet Sounds box set?  I suspect many of those might have never happened without David Leaf. 

Out of curiosity, do we have a good list somewhere what details what they guys played on vs. the wrecking crew?

One thing about David's book is that its views permeated subsequent biographies, including the Steven Gaines' book and Brian's ghosted autobiography. That may have more to do with the laziness of the subsequent authors than whatever David wrote, however.  They may have leaned on his research a bit too much and not worked hard enough to find fresh angles (particularly Brian's autobio, which is supposedly heavily plagiarized from it).

And, this is something I think about in addition to Bicyclerider's post above. David Leaf's book was kind of paradoxal. On one hand, it did help build (promote?) Brian's reputation as a genius, a continuing important artist, and a victim. At that time (1978), there were only maybe a handful of magazine articles that ever addressed Brian Wilson in that kind of detail.

At the same time, Leaf's book went places that nobody had previously gone, at least not in that depth. And, I believe it damaged the Beach Boys' reputation. The overwhelming image of harmony and good vibrations now had a documented sleazy side. And I think the group knew it, too. Do you remember that story about Mike running into David Leaf at some function and staring daggers through him. It just seemed that the band was never the same again. Not that Leaf's book was responsible entirely for that, but the proverbial cat was now out of the bag. Leaf's book was the first to air the dirty laundry, and as mentioned above, started a trend of future books which piggybacked on it.

I think, though, the dirty laundry was going to come out eventually.  There were hints of a dark side in some of the press about the BB pre-Leaf (the Rolling Stone profiles, the Nik Kent articles). There was no way they could keep that bottled up forever.

Absolutely, and I was just going to edit my above post to ask that question. If Leaf's book didn't come out in 1978, how long do you think it would've been before the sh-- eventually hit the fan?

Yes, the .01 percent he got wrong.  :)

Wasn't he the one who lobbied hard for "Fairy Tale Music" to be included on the Good Vibrations box set? I've never read his book and know basically nothing about him but that seems like another good instance of +1 for Leaf...

Nice creative editing - what I actually posted was that he promulgated, if not actually originated, the myth that the band barely played on ALL their pre-1967 releases. Speaking of creative editing, he also manipulated the BWPS footage to make it seem - entirely inaccurately - that Macca attended the opening night of the RFH premiere.

Better try harder, Brad.

Yes, Jon's FAQ book, which everyone on this forum should have as a matter of course.

Hmmmmm. So we still think it's really him, eh?  :)

Name's Steve, dude. Mister high-and-mighty Andrew Doe has made that accusation once before. There was no substance to it then, there's still none to it now. The man's got a few delusions he clings to.

Can you prove it?

David Leaf wrote -- and eventually advocated -- from Brian's perspective. What hardcore fandom has gained in the last decade or so has been a much more nuanced take on the band's perspective and role. I don't think David set out to mislead -- he was simply telling a compelling story. The crossover, which led to him eventually becoming all but an employee of BW Inc, compromised him. A similar crossover compromised Landy, but in a way much more damaging to Brian.

Whadya want? An address? A phone number? A photo? A birth certificate?

Tell you what. You post something that proves who you are, putting such vital information on the 'net for every two-bit crazy to grab hold of, and I'll do the same, okay?

David Leaf's book was what made me start digging into the Beach Boys catalog back in 1980, after reading his book on the way to and from school everyday. And I kept going back to it every year or so. There just wasn't another book on Brian or the group that could compare with it in those days. Even back then, though,  I thought Leaf was unnecessarily harsh towards the rest of the band. I found Beautiful Dreamer very hard to watch - sure, I'm a Brian Wilson fan, but I'm also a Beach Boys fan. And yes, the liner notes for the two-fer cd's made it appear that the group rarely played in the studio. It seemed like great reading at the time, but there is better stuff available now about the group.

Yup. Guilty knowledge.  ;D

Certainly not the one responsible for All this is That or much of the Dennis material being included however.

For me, David's book was my introduction to the band on a personal level (as much as a BOOK can be) and I must say, it helped make me a FANATIC about the band. I only got a little ways into the book, before I came to the conclusion that I would need EVERYTHING they recorded if I was going to do this right. That was an experience I will never forget. I laughed, I cried, I hated Mike Love, I wanted to console and protect Brian, I wanted to sleep with Diane (did I just say that?) MAN, did that book and their music TAKE ME FOR A RIDE.

Nowadays, of course, I have a much more balanced view of the situation. Brian isn't quite the victim I thought he was, I don't blame Mike for being concerned about both his family AND his career, however, I STILL WANT TO SLEEP WITH DIANE!  ;)

Can't speak for the DW material, but yes, were it not for a brace of UK fans, "ATIT" would not have been on the 1993 box.

Proof, that's all.   Is there anyone that's willing to  prove you're not BE/ his tool?
As for me, it's been noted on the board. I don't post using my "name", but at a minimum these folks can vouch for me (Tho I'm notasking them to do so): 
AGD, Mikie, Jon Stebbins, Alan Boyd, Peter Reum, Shane, Steve Mayo, Guitarfool, Smileholland, ESQeditor, Lee Dempsey   ( off the top of my head);
As, certainly, with these and others that I haven't named,  there's no doubt about who they are.   
Is there even one that's willing to say / prove you're not BE/ his tool?

If it weren't for Domenic Priore and myself (and maybe one or two others) lobbying for it, "Baby Blue" wouldn't have been on the '93 box set.

Thank you for that! Love that track. I'm not so hot for ATIT though. Sorry for OT.

I wanted to add a few thoughts as an outside observer on this:

With Leaf's relationship with Brian and how that may have colored the tone of the Beautiful Dreamer film, for one thing consider that nearly the same kind of scenario happened to Jules Siegel back in 66/67 when he was covering Brian and Smile for a piece slated for the Saturday Evening Post. As Siegel began his assignment as a journalist - supposed to be observing, reporting, and staying relatively neutral on the subject matter - Jules simply got swept up in the whole scene. What he was there to chronicle as a journalist overwhelmed him in a personal way to the point that the Post killed his story, and it ended up in the pages of the fledgling "Cheetah" underground magazine instead. Read Jules' account of him pitching the story to his editors, and the editors came back at him with criticism over his lack of objectivity, or getting too close to the subject matter to report it objectively. Again, Jules seems to have fallen in love with what he got assigned to cover and his perspective changed from journalist to fan-friend-participant. It happens so often in journalism, and in Jules' case it ended up killing his story which was supposed to be in the Post.

Consider Leaf's other films too, for one his John Lennon doc: Is the Lennon film objective, or do we go in and come out thinking the work is coming from a fan of Lennon with a very strong opinion on the topic he's documenting? Seriously, many, many documentaries (and documentary filmmakers) go into these projects with some kind of agenda or at least a subjective opinion that draws them into covering the topic in the first place. In many cases too, the subjects they're setting out to cover objectively become more personally connected than subjects of a film, and that can also shape the way the film is edited and presented after potentially hundreds of hours of work and raw footage are edited into 120 minutes.

I think Beautiful Dreamer is a case of that, just as Jules Siegel got swept up in Smile back in 1966/67, Leaf was so close and got even closer to the topic and the people he was documenting that the work made him even more personally connected to the project, and that naturally comes out on the screen.

Another prominent example: Consider Scorcese and The Last Waltz. Doesn't it sometimes play out as a fan tribute to Robbie Robertson? Scorcese was captivated by Robertson, and if you watch the Waltz with that perspective it starts to come through in some of the ways he filmed Robbie, and featured him. It's no wonder they worked together post-Waltz.

If some fans of The Band who may object to that version of the story find that it paints the subject matter in too biased a way, it still may not be enough to cause them not to watch or enjoy what Scorcese *did* happen to capture on film.

I think the same kind of thing happens with Beautiful Dreamer - Those who see the bias or even the agenda might watch it and enjoy it for the footage it did capture, and perhaps be able to filter out what they don't agree with in order to enjoy the good stuff which is on the screen.

The books...another topic.  :)

I think Leaf had a certain thesis-- or, better put, preconceptions, and he wrote the book to support them. His preconceived ideas remained unchanged through it or so it seems. In the process, he disrespected Brian's wife and family; he pictured BW as a circus beast being paraded by his band, and so on...

A good writer, brilliant advocate, a compelling and often times illuminating read, but deeply failed and harmful.

So again, I wonder what happened with David Leaf. How come he suddenly fell out of touch with Brian's inner circle? Was there some kind of falling out between he and the Wilson's? Leaf did so much for Brian and his career up until around 2005, then he was gone. Anybody with inside knowledge?

After BWPS and Beautiful Dreamer maybe he thought he had achieved his goal with Brian.

I'm very curious too. I suspect he's a very career-orientated guy (that promo video on his website is almost a self-documentary) but I'd be gobsmacked if he didn't tune in here occasionally, though probably very rarely.

I think Jeff Foskett came to fill so many roles in Brian's life - including some of David Leaf's - and with Jeff advising/briefing Melinda, David wasn't AS necessary anymore. And that's not to demean David Leaf, who, other than Jeff Foskett, might've been the best friend that Brian Wilson ever had.

They usually come back into the game:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/godfather3a_zps5d5d1541.jpg)

 :lol

That piece on Dennis alone makes him all good in my book.

Besides, what the hell would most of us do all day if there had been no David Leaf?  >:D

He's pumping gas with Andy Paley.

Andy did quite well with the Spongebob movie soundtrack, which is actually a really cool album if you can accept the idea of a cartoon character voice singing over Beach Boys Today!-inspired backing tracks.

Perhaps David withdrew from the relationship, or it was a two way thing. David was at one time named as a director of Brian's biopic. I think that was after Rob Reiner was associated with it in the early '00s. It seems that his disappearance from Brian's life happened shortly after that. David also got busier doing other projects, as noted, but I remember reading someone saying he was no longer on Brian's Christmas card list, whatever that means.

Thanks to Uncle Andy Botwin for answering my question.   :)

I think he has. BW88 and TLOS come to mind for me. Though we can question how much was pure Brian, even with Love You being finished by Carl. Maybe not to the level of Pet Sounds, Smile or even Friends, but I appreciate his solo career for what it is. Lots of brilliance there as well as the last 3 songs of TWGMTR.

I also don't underestimate the contributions of the other Beach Boys. This idea that Mike would be pumping gas if it weren't for Brian, I think he could have been successful without Brian as well. Great singer and front man would have been an asset to any band at the time, not to mention his knack for hooks and catchy lyrics. These can not be underestimated. Perhaps Brian may have been nothing without Mike either. Or at least someone who had as strong stage presence and commercial sense to balance Brian out.

I dunno, it kinda seems like Brian changes best friends about as frequently as hookers change partners.

He and his wife are thanked in the liner notes in TLOS.  I don't think he is on subsequent albums.

Nope. There was definitely a rift

details?

I completely understand if you have them but can't divulge.

I wonder if the rejection of David's London Smile concert footage in favor of filming Brian on a SoCal soundstage had anything to do with straining the relationship.

The number of projects I worked on with David is now well over 50....virtually every major project between 1977 and 2006 had his involvement to a greater or lesser degree. The number of things he did for Brian directly and the group indirectly/directly is legion. Just one example, for instance...he did the interview with Paul Mc Cartney in which Paul gushes over Pet Sounds, which led to a critical reappraisal of Brian's work and Pet Sounds in particular. Now, he makes no bones about being there for Brian, and has bruised some egos in the process, but his work led to a complete reappraisal of The Beach Boys' work as well as Brian's. What most people do not understand about The Beach Boys is that first and foremost, they are a family, and family systems are far more complex than any individual component of that system  (e.g. Brian). The Beach Boys in turn, are a family business, which supported and employed nearly every member of that family. As such, unless you have been trained in family systems theory and therapy, which virtually NO journalist has been, it is hard to distinguish the forest from the individual trees.

In the wake of Peter's customarily eloquent summary of the situation, I should pull my views on David into sharper focus: only a fool would deny that he kept the BW/BB flame burning at a time when it would have likely faded and died (not on his own to be sure, but he was by far the most vocal and visible proponent) and that on the personal front he was amongst Brian's most trusted confidants... and therein lies the basic problem. I still consider David a friend, even though we've not met since 2005, but back in the late 90s I gently offered that maybe his objectivity regarding Brian was becoming slightly compromised, and he cheerfully corrected me by saying no, it was entirely gone. That's fine, but doesn't make for a neutral standpoint or, if we're being frank, editorial integrity of the first order (I know, I know... pot/kettle/black).

That there was some kind of rift, falling out, what you will between Teams Wilson & Leaf isn't in dispute, but those who know any detail aren't talking, at least on forums such as these. Bottom line: David Leaf was an integral part of Brian's history and life from the mid/late-seventies for some 30-odd years... which may be why certain other band members and associates had so little time for him (to be polite) back in the day even though he was generating them some valuable publicity in the process. As he memorably said (I paraphrase slightly), in a band with so many skeletons, they'll get jumpy when you start rummaging in the closets, even if you're only looking for a broom.

:-D

It makes me a little sad for Brian that he would form a close personal friendship with a worshipful fan. Maybe that's why he finally had to take a break from it. At the time Brian first became friends with Leaf, he was insecure and at a bad place in his life. As time went on, Brian became more secure as he made a name for himself outside the Beach Boys, and he also had a new family to support him. It's also possible that David gave Melinda the creeps and she eventually got her way. 

 Since it's obvious that you know more about David and Melinda's relationship, could you please go into more detail?

Interesting premise... however, also entirely spurious.  ;D

Anyone think David would be happy about having his Smile London concert footage rejected by BriMel? Or that the reason was that Brian didn't smile enough and looked too much at the teleprompter, so BriMel had an entirely new concert shot, one in which David's close friend Brian was "urged" to smile more for the camera? Considering that David had no compunction about dissing Marilyn,  I would think the relationship may have been uneasy to begin with. Anyone Brian married who read David's book would wonder what he thought of her or said about her when she wasn't around.

Have you ever spoken with David about his book, and the reaction to it in the extended BB family ?  Or to members of that family mentioned in it ? I have, several times since 1978. I would respectfully venture that, in this arena of BB history if in no other, my knowledge exceeds yours.

Your basic premise is flawed.

OMG, so you are one of those superfans that gained access to the inner sanctum of the band and cowrote one mediocre selling out of print book. If you are so privy, then spill, don't tease. I'm not sure what premise you are even referring to. Surely you know the reason Leaf is no longer in the BriMel circle, but all you do is criticize points mooted/guessed at by others. It seems to be a pattern in more than one topic.

And exactly how many books have you been commissioned to write, if we're going to get personal ? How many reissue liner notes has Capitol paid you to supply ? How many times have you been asked to help research box sets or a TV documentary ?

That little outburst aside, my point is simple: I've spoken to David about his book and his friendship with Brian. I've also spoken to some of the people mentioned in the book about its reception. I'm guessing you haven't so I pointed out as politely as I can (and that's pretty hard for me, as anyone here knows  ;D ) that in this area of BB/BW knowledge, my information trumps your speculation. You decided to turn it nasty. Again, as anyone here will tell you, that's not a wise move. Usually. These days, I'm Peaceful Perce, and accordingly, having had my say, I'll make no more reference to your flawed premise and the spurious reasoning built thereupon, at least in public. That's what PMs are for.  :)

... and breathe,  ;D

I thought you sat near him at the TLOS premier (2007)?

Now I sound weird.

Reason I think I know this is because I remember a story you told of him giving you a knowing nod of approval at the opening numbers as they unraveled.

Good thing I have people here to remind me what I said seven years ago. You are entirely correct sir. I was sitting directly in front or the 'management' row, a fact which caused me no little anguish the following night.

Maybe there needs to be an "Ask 20 Questions of AGD" board, where he can cryptically lead you to guess the answer to your questions such as,"Is it bigger than a breadbox, or smaller than a mouse? Animal, vegetable, or mineral?" Not meant as an insult, BTW.

Hey Kittycat, you're persistent. Just PM AGD. It's that simple. This is a public message board and some of this stuff shouldn't be aired out in a public forum. PM AGD - it's that simple. Then away go the endless guessing games on the board.

Somebody else asked first, so it's not just me. AGD is not the person to ask and I don't think anyone else would answer specifically, either. I guess silence is golden in BB insider world.  Sometimes silence can speak volumes,though, so it's guessable.

AGD showing remarkable restraint and civility in the face of outright rudeness and aggression - kudos!  I appreciate how difficult that must be.  You the man!