The Smiley Smile Message Board

It's tonight. Just a tip: Go to their website, http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/ (http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/) , if you can't record or watch it the full episode will be available there tomorrow. Sometimes they post bonus material too, if there is any rehearsal footage or unaired clips worth showing. Don't count on that, though.

Also for those fans looking for a preview or scoop, look for various Twitter accounts like Questlove's, sometimes they'll post photos and info from the rehearsals and soundchecks before the taping.

What I really, REALLY wish had happened...Paul McCartney was in NYC to appear on Fallon's show MONDAY. Why, or how, did they not try to book Brian and Paul together on the same episode? Paul Monday, Brian Thursday...epic missed opportunity to have these two musicians together on TV. But that's network TV and "by the book" management at work, I suppose.

Unless Fallon's people stage a coup and make it happen tonight... ;D

This week's precedent: McCartney performed three songs on the show Monday, two from the "New" album and "Lady Madonna" as the closer. Fallon last night had Ylvis performing their novelty 100 million-plus-views YouTube song "The Fox (What Does The Fox Say)" with live backing from The Roots, as a multi-set, fully choreographed production number. When the Beach Boys were on with the new album last year, they also got the multi-song plus interview treatment.

I'm thinking maybe Brian will play one, Beck will play one, and maybe an interview will happen too. Fallon's show (and band) are fans. Or maybe they'll just do one song. We'll see what happens.

If it is one song, could Surf's Up be the one played? Or will they stick with the hits?

There might not be an interview. Brian/Beck are listed as the musical guests only.

I'd love to see Jimmy Fallon do one of his video sketches with Brian and Jeff.

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Brian and Katy Perry after Jimmy Fallon.

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Brian and Jerry Seinfeld (after Fallon). Reminds me of this classic scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZJGkKxN4U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZJGkKxN4U)

Good call on Questlove's twitter:  https://twitter.com/questlove/status/388425100401184768 (https://twitter.com/questlove/status/388425100401184768)

Well I think I'll go ahead set that DVR...

Has there been anything from the new Brian/ Beck album played yet on tour? Thought it would be a given that this type of show would want some new product, even though its not yet released.

Isn't Danny Boy meant for the new album (I'm not sure myself)? They've played that.

Not really what I had in mind as new material but fair comment.

How about the song “Metropolis” we have heard about?

I hope they give us something original by the end of the tour. Sure would love to hear what Metropolis sounds like.

Snap! Had just edited my post and said the same thing.

According to the timestamp we both posted it at the exact same second :lol

Cue "Twilight Zone" theme music! ;D

Brian looks a little bit slimmer than during the reunion tour. Good for him. He's gonna be ready for his close-up when he does publicity for his biopic (frankly, he's better looking than John Cusack, even though he's older).

Oh, pretty cool, could be terrible or could be great.


These two guys are responsible for so much joy in my life.

Is it for-sure being broadcast tonight? According to the listings on Zap2it, they're the musical guests tomorrow night (Friday). There are other guests listed for tonight (Thursday). I know the Letterman show tapes both Thursday and Friday shows on Thursday.

So....   I hear McCartney did 15 minutes in Times Square today.  Will he stick around to be on Fallon?  

Fallon's gotta ask him something like 'Last time you were here, it was for The Beach Boys! So, what happened"? ......

I can't wait for Brian's non-answer  :lol

BW does look like he shed some of that excess weight.

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Katy Perry to Fallon: "Pet Sounds is one of my favorite albums, it influenced all my songwriting..."

Very cool.

That makes Pet Sounds look bad. Wow her music is terrible

Yeah you can really hear the pet sounds influence on any given Katy Perry track. ::)

I like Katy, I think a few songs got overplayed but that tune "Firework" was pretty catchy, good pop radio tune.

You'll see the interview on the replays, but she seemed really excited to meet Brian, the quote may not be exact as she mentioned something about the melodies, and Fallon mentioned and asked her about the Pet Sounds Sessions box set.

If thousands of Katy's fans heard her mention Pet Sounds and seek out a copy as a result, I'm all for it!  :)

Note in the photos, some changes: David and Al are guitar-less, Brian is not behind a keyboard, Darian is not behind a keyboard...

I'm thinking they could have axed this Mr. and Mrs. Seinfeld cooking demo for some additional Brian/Beck tunes...

Our Prayer and Danny Boy!

That was pretty awesome.  I'm seeing them on Saturday, I'm pumped.

She commented that Pet Sounds had influenced her songwriting in the way she makes melodic choices. Then Fallon asked her if she had heard the Pet Sounds box set where the vocals and music are separated, or something like that. Then it got into a discussion of age and he said he'd get her one for Christmas.

I think it's great that so many current musicians are talking about Pet Sounds as an influence on them. When I went to the C50, there was a whole row of  young indy hipster types behind me who were  obviously there because of Brian's reputation in those circles.

Loved "My Prayer". Brian seemed fairly relaxed and I think he's really enjoying this tour. I would have loved to hear something more rockin', but the "Prayer" to "Danny Boy" combination did demonstrate that the two styles could be compatible.

Did you see Melinda Wilson sitting about three rows up in the audience, aisle seat, as Fallon walked up the stairs?  :)

That was cool. I'd be lying if I didn't say I wish they had arranged it so Brian, Al, and David would have sung a few lyrics from Danny Boy along with Beck's guitar, but that was a neat arrangement, kind of like a Floyd Cramer-Roy Buchanan vibe with those Brian-style backing harmonies.

I'd be pumped to see the live show after that!  

Glad that was good, I get pretty worried when Brian goes on TV

It sounded great.  I don't remember ever seeing Brian smile like that on TV.  He really seemed to be enjoying Beck's playing. 

You're right! Brian and even the other band members seemed to be enjoying hearing Beck play, even though that song has been in their setlist the whole time. He has such a unique sound and style, I guess it's hard not to say "damn!" as you're on stage with the guy and he plays that way.  ;D 

Hm, so I guess zap2it, one of the major online TV listings sites, was wrong about Brian being on tomorrow night's show. As for Katy, she really doesn't write much of her own material. She's one of those songwriting factory type acts, even though she gets credits on some of her songs. It's amazing how many writers it takes to write bad songs these days.

Perhaps she had to plug PS to settle up for the following (lifted from RLollin' Stone, 2010):

"She's also in a terrible mood. The­cotton-candy scent that's supposed to go in the Teenage Dream packaging isn't quite right, and she's just been informed that the Beach Boys have served notice that Snoop Dogg's line about wishing that all the girls could be California girls violates their copyright. She takes a seat on a red-velvet couch in the studio and waves a hand. "As much as I want a Beach Boys credit on my album, we have to take it out," she says. "You want a Brian Wilson credit, not a Mike Love credit," says one of her managers. "Well, you said it, not me," she says."

I'm in Pacific time so still waiting for this to air. Thank you all for the heads up!

That was heart achingly beautiful. One of the best live appearances I have ever seen on any late night show.

Here it is.

http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/brian-wilson-and-jeff-beck-our-prayer-and-danny-boy/n41836/

Thank you!

SO COOL. :3d

2:30 ! :)


I've got a real good feeling about that album . .

I still can't believe some of my Facebook "buddies" are calling this tour a waste of Jeff Beck, this is absolutely beautiful.

Noooo !! Can't play it on my iPhone in Australia. Says it's only available in the U.S and it's territories

I find Katy Perry to be one of, if not the most tolerable musician in her field (if not her, then Lady Gaga, but I think they're both on pretty different trips). I don't love her or anything, but y'know, she strikes me as someone who's sincere about what she's doing and a few of her songs are very... okay. So yeah, the endorsement doesn't bug me at all. If anything, it's really good to hear someone in her position praise the Beach Boys and spread the word.

Don't be so bashful, young man.  Sounds like you're head over heels, gone daddy gone, hook-line'n'sinker in love with this gal.

@ Moz, get off the iphone and on a PC, dude - you will be a happy man.

I can't see the pics... :(

This is a pleasant and inoffensive performance. It would have sounded pretty much identical if Brian, Al and David had stayed at home though.

Wow! No continuation of the Beach Boys 50 tour? Brian and group (and Jeff Beck) take a lemon and make lemonade.  ;D

Classic!

Thanks!

I pretty much agree with that sentiment except for the fact that Al Jardine did add some indispensable fingersnapping.

"I love Pet Sounds everything I do is because of Pet Sounds!"
"So you must have heard the box set where they split the vocals and the tracks?"
(awkward pause)
"...No, I was born in '84."

Wow I bet she wasn't expecting Fallon of all people to call her out on her BS.

"Fallon of all people" seems to have a good handle on music. His impressions of music legends are pretty much always spot-on (see Jim Morrison singing the Reading Rainbow theme song). But maybe you're talking about Fallon's non-confrontational persona. In that case, I agree. I think he was a little annoyed because she called him someone's "stepfather" and he thought she said "grandfather." He thought she was making a joke about his age (even though he's only about 10 years older than she is).
I thought the performance by Brian and Jeff was sublime, though I agree that Brian, David, and Al probably contributed the least of anyone on stage.

"....No, I was born in '84." is a so-so answer, but probably fair enough in context. 

"...No, I'm not a competive fanboy dork and I do have better things to do with my limited time" may have been what KP should have said.  But I guess you're hot, or you're cold.

Cringe. I guess she was trying to impress the hipsters that watch Fallon. Glad he called her out.

About the photos I posted: In a rush I linked to those from Getty, they had the first "scoop" on what was happening on Fallon...I can see them just fine, are there people who can't, like Micha posted? Maybe it's something with direct linking with Getty, or viewing the links outside the US? I don't understand why that happens, I can see them and others cannot. Any thoughts?


About the performance, I agree that half of the musicians on the main stage were not really essential to that performance...and I'll repeat again I wish they had written an arrangement where Brian, Al, and David could have at least sung a few verse lines in a duet with Beck's guitar melody. I still really enjoyed it, but hearing some words sung by them would have been cool.

But I also realized Jeff Beck needs a spotlight too for his fan base, and I'd easily compare him to Brian in terms of status and the loyalty of his fan base within the guitar community. So think of Brian and how he's viewed around here, and that's Jeff Beck among guitarists and fans of the guitar in general. He's very, very respected and beloved. And "Danny Boy" in that context last night showcased him, albeit more than Brian, Al, and David, but it showcased Beck's style.

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Believe it or not, you don't have to buy an exhaustive box set in order to appreciate an album. She's said she's a fan of the band many times prior to this, if I recall correctly.

Confession: I'd guess that I've maybe listened to about a collective 25-35% of the Pet Sounds box outside the actual album and mixes with the more interesting alternate vocals (i.e. Mike's lead on "I'm Waiting For The Day", etc). I've also never listened to the whole album in mono because the stereo mix is so well done for this particular album. I likes what I likes. Am I trying to impress hipsters or do I not appreciate the album, too?

Both; and your KP fanboy comments are stretching your long established credibility*



*(Just teasing - RDZ's opinions are awesome and insightful, and he's really, really funny  :rock)

pleasant and inoffensive - high praise indeed, it must have been good! ;)

Our Prayer on mainstream TV in 2013, with three Beach Boys. Throw in one of the most popular contemporary singers, whether you like her or not, giving a great ( even if complete bs) plug for Pet Sounds sounds pretty good to me.

It's not about "appreciating" the album...I'm sure she's listened to it and appreciates it. I was referring to her statement where she said Pet Sounds "pretty much influenced all of my songwriting" - sorry, but when I listen to Hot n Cold I don't hear any influence from Pet Sounds.

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To be honest it's pretty irritating when an person cites Pet Sounds as an influence because it's a hip thing to do yet you can hear it at all in his or her music.

Katy is a perfect example, how are her melodies influenced by Brian when her music is typical pop sh*t.

Always nice to hear PS get a shout out though

That name-checking has been going on at least since the early 90's, across styles. I remember around 92-94 reading a lot of interviews with various bands (most of them indie-alternative) who would name-check Brian Wilson specifically yet when I'd hear their music I heard no influence present at all. And perhaps even worse, if one of these alternative bands had a harmony vocal in a chorus or a unique melody that actually went somewhere, the *reviewers* would usually write that the song or band was "Brian Wilson-like" or sounding "like the Beach Boys' soaring harmonies". A vocal harmony alone does not make it so! Nor does a catchy melody that takes an unusual turn. I remember this because it annoyed me to the point that I wrote a letter about it, full of sarcasm, commenting on these reviewers and bands and artists doing all the name-dropping with no shred of musical evidence to back it up...but I never sent it to the Boston weekly paper I had in mind. I'm glad I didn't send it.  ;D

When I've been critical of Kanye West in the past, I've seen the replies mentioning how he's influenced by Pet Sounds and Brian...again maybe that's so, but on a majority of Kanye's actual tracks I don't hear the influence. Maybe he cites Pet Sounds as a fan, which is what Katy may have done, but I don't hear it in Kanye's music for the most part.

Why?

Why what?   :-D

Why everything.

Why does any of this exist? Why is Our Prayer being murdered by the abominable vocal blend of the BW band? Why are Al, Brian, and David muted in this performance? Why are they even there? I guess because of their names/faces. Why does Jeff Foskett have to always be so prominent in the blend, and why does he always sing so close to the mic? Why is this Jeff Beck thing happening? Since when does Brian have even the slightest interest in that kind of electric guitar playing? Why does everyone in music have to at some point cite Pet Sounds? Why is this good or desirable or cool when it happens? Why does it matter?

Pretty impressive. They proved in just a few minutes that if you're going to this tour, you'll be getting one of the best vocal groups and one of the best guitarists you'll be able to find nowadays. What's not to love?

I can't address the other points, but on these I'd like to try to offer my own opinion.

I see it is passing the torch, or in more modern lingo "paying it forward". It's similar to Dylan's album cover for "Bringing It All Back Home" where album covers like Robert Johnson's 'King Of The Delta Blues Singers', Eric Von Schmidt 'The Folk Blues Of Eric Von Schmidt' and The Impressions among others are on display, scattered on the table. It's like he was telling his fans "this is what I like, this is what influences me, check this out..."

It's the effect of that scene in "Almost Famous" where the teen writer's older sister leaves home, but leaves behind a box full of albums including Pet Sounds which is at the top of the stack.

It's the effect of my classmate in middle school when I was getting into the Beatles who asked if I had Sgt. Pepper, and after I told him I did not he came back that week with a cassette copy he made for me of the album in his parents' record collection. Which I proceeded to play all the time.  :-D

It's the effect of Questlove tweeting out to his fans to listen to The Smile Sessions, and how many great sounds were on the set possibly waiting to be sampled and turned into something new depending on the creativity of those who would try.

It's the way I was searching yesterday for images and info before the show, and found Jimmy Fallon's Tumblr account page which had the Frank Holmes Smile album cover taking up almost the entire screen.

And I'd say too Katy Perry mentioning Pet Sounds - her fan base among young listeners is massive and loyal, how many of them would go on Katy's tip from that show and see what all the fuss was about with this album "Pet Sounds"?

And many more examples.

It's telling people who may not know about this music how special and how important it is to us, and by us I mean the examples above who like to share something that mattered to us with others so they can experience it too. It's passing it on to new listeners, new audiences, who may or may not also take that influence and pass it on to others in their circles.

That's why I think it matters.  :)

What a great performance. Never heard Beck until now. What a guitar player! Those first few seconds of Danny Boy were chilling in a good way.

Very nice. Seeing Brian smile just warmed my heart.

Yeah, well I was born in '85 and I've heard it.  Not that that makes me any more of a fan than her, but what a stupid response.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ To keep a solo "career" going?

You mean he doesn't look as "overweight and out of shape" as he did last year when the reunion began?  ;)

Nice performance but I think the vocal arrangement for "Danny boy" is blunt. Sounds like they were just going by the book. I can't detect any BW magic, although that song would lend itself for that imo. It's just one of the most beautiful songs ever written. There are so many great versions out there but this one is just average.

I'm not sure why "Our Prayer" is considered such an impressive piece of music. It's super-short, it's simple, and it's not that original-sounding. It's a faux Gregorian chant. I don't think it shows off vocals that well, especially since part of is closed-mouth humming. I wish they would have chosen different pieces of music than that or "Danny Boy." Oh, well.

Yeah, it's time to strike a blow against the tyranny of "Our Prayer."

Personally, I think ice cream is BULLSHIT. Really good steaks are only popular because of hipsters.

Yea, screw ice cream!!!

I am a fan of Katy Perry, especially the Teenage Dream album, the first 6 tracks are strong, and there are a couple more near the end which are great. I think it's all about one's taste. It's verrrry pop, but it stands out due to the arrangements and her powerful voice. She's one of the few pop stars that actually can bring it when the songs are performed live.

As for their mics being muted, I think we all remember the Jimmy Fallon performance of TWGMTR. Kinda rough. Brian's vocals that night were a little flat, and it's so silly because he could easily fix those vocals with a little more breath support, but with back issues, breath support become hard to provide. Aaaannd, I've gone way off topic. lol Excited for Tuesday's concert.

1) If you think "Our Prayer" is simple you must have never analyzed the voice leading Brian worked out.
2) If you think it sounds like a "faux Gregorian chant" you either don't know the meaning of "faux" or you haven't a clue what features distinguish a Gregorian chant.
3) You wish they had done another song... woop dee doo.

I don't mean to be rude but sometimes it pays off to think before applying finger to keyboard.

The elephant in the room is that Fallon seeming went out of his way not to introduce "original Beach Boys" Al and David. When Jimmy went on stage with the band at the end he makes eye contact with Al as he mentions Jeff and Brian again. Al almost shrugs his shoulders like "yeah Jimmy, you know we are original Beach Boys but we are legally being prevented from promoting ourselves as such".

bro fuck you they done "danny boy" i herd from my dawg modesto there gonna do "happy birthday" and "let's all go to the lobby" next time you ignorant dotard i always wanted to hear jeff foskett featuring half the beach boys sing "happy birthday" and "let's all go to the lobby" with wild and crazy rock and roll guitarist you ignorant dotard i'm just glad to see an aging brian wilson sit on stage and stare at wild and crazy rock and roll guitarist sorta play one of his songs for four minutes followed by "shave and a haircut" encore you ignorant dotard

Woop dee doo to you and a couple of other people's opinions on this thread, too. I do think before applying finger to keyboard, unlike some people who are obsessed with kissing Brian Wilson's behind every waking moment of the day and going all Nazi-like to keep people in line on that opinion (and by definition are non-thinkers). What a bunch of charmers who try to bully everyone on this board who don't subscribe to the group-think of Brian IS GOD! Every turd he pushes out is gold.

I am certainly no Brianista and my point wasn't to blow sunshine up yer ass about all things Brian.

My point is your posts betrayed an ignorance on a number of things and I wanted to point them out - you know as a point of discussion (ie the kind of thing we tend to do here on a message board). My "woop dee doo" was my own little way of saying since your first two points made no legible sense to anyone with even a basic knowledge of music, who cares that you didn't like the selection.

Instead of getting all puffed up and offended and start throwing the "bully" card around, how about you refute what I said without the drama. Just a thought.

Naw, you heard him. You either hate "Our Prayer" or you're a blind, brainless Brian fanboy.

time to UNFRIEND them!   :hat

I think as long as we all promise not to be Nazi-like, this thread will turn out ok. Please: for the children. Never, ever go Nazi-like. Just try not to mention the war!

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Oh, okay, so my "posts," not just that one, betray an "ignorance" about music. Uh huh.

Do you ever wonder why Brian plays to half-empty theaters on more than one of his tours? Or why a lot of his fans complain they can't convince their family and friends to be fans of the Beach Boys and Brian, that they somehow can't "convert" them to the cause? Maybe it's because either the music is so darn hi-falutin' or the fans of it are. We just can't get it. Oh, ignorant us. And I've even been in a couple of those half-full theaters. I guess I shouldn't have bothered, 'cause I'm too dumb to appreciate that Brian is on the level of Mozart and sooo over my head.

If you don't like my posts, or think they're "ignorant," then don't read 'em, dearie.

Hi Kitty Kat,

Just FYI and not meaning to jump on your post, Gregorian chant was typically just one line, with NO HARMONIES.  "Monophonic"meaning just one vocal part, and NO harmonization going on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant

Yeah, but that's only if you care about the MEANING of WORDS. Only a Brianista of the first rank would bother knowing what words mean before using them... Also, Cowsill sings "Wild Honey" really good and Al Jardine turned in French Resistance members.

Obviously this is about a lot more than "Our Prayer."

Doh! "Posts" was a typo. I meant "post".  Mea culpa. :o

It's derivative of some type of church music, in any case. Look up "vocal harmony" on Wikipedia and it's discussed how church music evolved in later centuries to use complex chords and harmonies similar to those used in that brief song.  Gregorian chant is similar to what the Yardbirds used in "Still I'm Sad." In any case, it has the ring of the familiar, because it was based on forms of music that already existed. It also had a context in "Smile." I'm not sure it works as well outside of that context. It doesn't quite fit as an intro to "Danny Boy," IMO. I also don't think those two pieces of music are that accessible to common ignoramuses just tuning in and not familiar with Wilson or Beck. You know, folks like me.

 It was a nice touch telling him to look up vocal harmony on wikipedia.

Thought it was really nice to hear on tv, how surreal to be happening in 2013. A shame they didn't have enough time for Surf's Up or a longer piece.

Brian has always said he writes based on the "feel" of the music. So, since Our Prayer was intended to evoke a sense of spirituality, it's not strange at all that it feels like "church music." Smile is Brian's teenage symphony to God, after all,  and Our Prayer is its hymn.

At this point in his career, Brian doesn't have to prove anything to the masses. He's made his mark in commercial music and anyone who wants to hear the hits can do so. I think he can afford to do what makes him happy, and this collaboration with Jeff might just be fun for him exactly because it's NOT expected or mainstream. Certainly, they won't draw the same crowds as the Beach Boys hit machine does, but I don't think that's the point.

Our Prayer to Danny Boy makes perfect sense, in that regard. The first song emphasizes Brian's mastery of vocal harmony arranging; the second is a familiar song made new by Jeff Beck's guitar virtuosity.

Looking back on how reluctant Brian was to playing Smile music, we fans truly are blessed: This is Brian Wilson singing 'Prayer' in 2013 on a Late Night show!!! It really is surreal.

A nice enough performance, but nothing that would make me go out of the way to see this pairing on tour. And not mentioning Al or David at all was not cool.

I think it's more the fact that most people don't know who Al Jardine and David Marks are so you may as well just mention the stars. Obviously he could have mentioned them being original Beach Boys because Mike isn't exactly going to sue Jimmy Fallon over stating an indisputable fact.

When I first read "Danny Boy" was going to be done on the tour, I assumed it would be a Brian Wilson lead vocal. It dovetails with the story of Brian singing it to his grandma when he was a little boy and the song presumably has emotional significance to him.  There's a clip on YouTube of Mike Love bursting into tears when he talks about it. Brian himself brings up the grandma story from time to time. Even if he had to be doubled by Foskett to sing it, it would have been nice to have him sing at least part of the song, with lyrics.

There's no place for this stuff here. Whether it's my business or not, there is no justification to suggest people who liked or enjoyed the performance on Fallon are part of some group-think Brian Wilson cult that just posts random praise for the sake of promoting how great Brian Wilson is. There is a forum for that, it's colored blue. But that's not here. People are also allowed to like things as much as others may dislike them, but it really isn't necessary to try to demean them for doing either. That goes for all sides.

You know, there were some genuine assholes on the old Smile Shop, especially starting around 2005 or 2006 who started saying similar things when a poster would write something positive about music Brian had either performed or released. If this group of people didn't agree, that poster was a "Brianista" or worse. The funny thing is their attacks were often so removed from reality that it became laughable. And without naming names, it's too bad you weren't there to see what the notion of "online bullying" really looks like, when something as simple as posting how much you like a certain band leads to personal insults and the notion that liking that band is somehow wrong, going beyond the usual joking around or poking fun. Again, total asshole behavior. Over someone liking music, of all things a person could choose to be a jerk to another person about.

If someone liked the performance last night or didn't like it, let it go. My 2 cents.

Right, they don't know Al or David by sight. The reason musicians do these tv gigs is not for money but promotion. Mike is prohibiting the band from promoting themselves as original BB members.  You are naive to think Fallon wasn't told not to mention the BBs name as litigation is pending.

And if Fallon had introduced Brian,  Al and David as original members of the BBs, many viewers might think, wow, I am going to go see those guys. This is the essence of this latest court action. I imagine the goal being the new album supporting tour this summer with Blondie. They want to promote themselves as BBs.

But what a surprise that who, as usual, would appear to squabble with my post but good old Nicko.

About Gregorian chant...This may have been covered on Wikipedia, I didn't read it. But I got a pretty fascinating bit of history that I like telling my students who are studying harmony, and one of the few things I retained from what was an early-morning lecture course on early music history...most times I was either half asleep or worse when I stumbled in for the two-hour lectures.  ;D

Gregorian chant does have harmony, but only very limited and specific harmony. You'll only hear in traditional Gregorian chants the intervals of the perfect 4th or the perfect 5th. If you play guitar, that's the "power chord" sound. In melody, that's the "here comes the bride" notes for the 4th, and the Wizard of Oz chant "oh - we - oh" for the 5th. In Beach Boys terms, the Salt Lake City intro is sliding 4ths/5ths.

When the chants were developed, music was designated solely for sacred performance and use. You were literally not allowed under the church's rule to harmonize using intervals outside the 4ths and 5ths, in fact the "tri-tone" interval which forms a diminished chord, as well as the 7th chord (3rd plus flat 7th is the tritone), was called "diablo musica", or some variant. Rough translation: "devil's music". It was literally outlawed, if you were composing music and used that interval you could be punished for it.

This of course all changed as music and art transitioned out of the "Dark Ages".

And the type of harmony and chorale-style writing for voices developed using 3rds and tri-tone intervals, a technique perfected by Bach. That is perhaps the reason why most if not all music theory courses use Bach as the foundation of the course, in both analyzing and writing examples in that style in order to learn the technique. Of course some developments are studied that came before Bach, but I think it was his chorale writing that codified it.

So, the next time you hear a 7th chord or a diminished chord (as in God Only Knows), keep in mind that at one point in history writing or performing that chord was against the "law".  :)

I had to look up vocal harmony on Wikipedia. Shows what I know.

So, what type of music is "Our Prayer" most reminiscent of? It sounds familiar to me, as though I've heard that style of music in movies or perhaps being exposed to the limited amount of classical music I heard in music appreciation classes in college. What period of music history is it derived from? Is it in the classical realm?

It's Bach-style chorale writing, most of that was designed to be sung as part of a church service, and with those harmonies it would have been around the time of Bach. In fact, another fascinating bit of info, some of the old cathedrals were designed so the choir could be heard by the audience in "stereo" or even surround sound, and you'd have the various groups of vocalists placed around the church and the place itself designed a certain way for sound reflection and whatnot so the vocal blend would envelop the people in the church. Pretty neat, several hundred years before "stereo".  ;D

There is a possibility that Brian as a student taking music theory and harmony classes probably would have studied and been assigned to write his own examples of this Bach type of chorale writing, it's what all the courses use to teach it and still do. If he took a theory class in school, he'd have a basic knowledge of it from there, plus whatever else he developed and learned on his own after those classes.

You could hate "Our Prayer" and still recognize that it is not simple. It's very far from simple, especially within any context of "pop" or "rock" music.

Brian's talked about his love of Bach and how his favored shuffle beat comes from "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring". So yes, I think when he did "Our Prayer" he was purposely trying to ape the sound of devotional music and probably imagined a choir of voices singing it in a cathedral. And of course the last line in the bass part of "Our Prayer" is basically one of the main melodic themes in "Rhapsody in Blue".

That said, as someone who's taught the different parts of "Our Prayer" to singers for a Christmas album I did a year ago, the parts in the middle are the trickiest to learn, which is often the case. Any altos or baritones out there know those mid-range parts are absolute arse to learn.

A few thoughts:

1) I thought the performance was wonderful. Very tasteful and not at all embarrassing.

2) I went to college for music so once I read Kitty Kat's comparison to Gregorian chant I kind of ignored the rest and kept on.

3) Too many cynics here. Would you have rather they performed "Barbara Fucking Ann" instead?

4) I would love it if Jeff Foskett would double all of my vocals. I sure would sound more like a Beach Boy. I know he's a busy guy but I'll ask him next time I see him.

5) Besides Guitarfool2002's posts (always well written), just a lot of hating amongst fans who have to choose which version of the group they prefer. Think I'll listen to more Pink Floyd instead. Oh wait...

6) I really don't give a damn what anybody thinks about my opinion. I'm really just a fictional character from a Monty Python movie anyway. I'll trade you some of my shrubbery for a ticket to next Friday's concert (which I can record).

7) Why are people hating on Katy Perry? I don't find her particularly offensive in any way.

9) What happened to #8?

8) Here I am.

11) Now I'm all screwed up, thanks a lot, Roger.

10) Your welcome, Roger.

I suppose they didn't mention Al and David or the Beach Boys [did Jimmy mention BBs?] because it is the Wilson/Beck tour not Beach Boys/Beck tour.

Saying 'Our Prayer' is Gregorian chant is like calling Bing Crosby a hip hop artist, or JS Bach a classical composer.

This Gregorian Chant thing is interesting.  My background is Roman Catholic.  We used Gregorian Chant in church and in 12 years of Catholic School. The nuns taught us the shortened scale and we didn't know anything different. Its' music staff has four lines and three spaces.  And, the range is theoretically shorter.  The notes look square instead of oval.  And it all "sounds" as if written in a minor mode.  

We sang western conventional music, such as Silent Night, Adeste Fideles, and what one would call traditional European Christmas Carols, alongside the Gregorian stuff.  It is mostly used for the Kyrie, and other "responsorial" type sections of the service.  Lots of controversy surrounded the termination of the Latin Rite Mass, in the middle 1960's.

That is a dramatic over simplification.  But, if you want to see a Latin Rite Mass, just go on YouTube.  There are plenty of examples, just skip over the non music parts.  You can get the sonority of the difference as between the two.  And, specifically it was used in the Western (Rome) Church.  There was a lot of church politics surrounding this at the time.

There must be old hymnals floating around eBay, to compare the two styles of composition.  

I've read where Brian used his "own" kind of music notation, so to judge how it was written, is tough, but just found a traditional sample of sheet music by searching, on the 2004 BWPS.  (Our Prayer)  Looks like 1964 Irving Music, but it is blurry on the iPad.  Hope this is helpful.  The highest vocal note goes down from E to E, in the "low do to high do" so it has the modern music intervals, rather than the shorter tonal range of the Gregorian Mode.  It has 6 flats, so it looks to me like Eflat minor? I'm sure someone will rescue me, here.  It has been a while.  ;)

All I noticed was that there were 80 gazillion people on stage and nary a word was uttered...

Harmonically, I think Our Prayer sounds more baroque than anything else.

I seem to remember David Leaf compared it to a gregorian chant in the two' fer booklet, which is where this misconception may have come from.

Our Prayer uses Oblique Motion, something used often in Gregorian chant.
the wiki definition, just for clarity
"a kind of motion or progression in which one part ascends or descends, while the other prolongs or repeats the same tone, as in the accompanying example."

Some of the jumps between notes are a bit large, but it does follow the rules of Gregorian chant.

Gregorian chant is plainsong. How can there be parts?


Yes, and if you add some notes, and take some away, and swop some around, it also follows the rules of 12 note serialism. Spooky!

From page 4:


Any vocal piece with more than a perfect 4th or 5th interval sung in harmony with the melodic line is not Gregorian chant. I thought that would be enough info to resolve this question back on page 4!  :-D

I also wanted to apologize for maybe giving a misleading example, for anyone who may have searched for an example of a "Bach chorale" and found exactly that. If you find those examples, you probably heard something more complex, sung by a vocal choir with orchestra, and sung with lyrics and a whole lot of counterpoint and ornamentation of the basic melodies. That was part of the Bach sound, I didn't mean those as direct examples of where "Our Prayer" may have its foundation.

What I meant was that the type of harmonies underlying all of Bach's ornamentation and embellishment were the same types of voice-leading and harmony writing that "Our Prayer" uses. It's actually easier if you're looking for a Bach example to hear the harmonies in any number of his organ pieces. But again, sometimes all of the counterpoint and ornaments can mask the type of chord harmonies going on underneath.

I agree with the musicians who mentioned in the thread the kind of church hymns that have a more simplified type of writing, less about the ornamentation and counterpoints and more about how the chords were blocked out for the vocal parts.

If you can find any traditional church hymnal, many of them follow the same catalog of music, and they're usually arranged in four voices, SATB (soprano-alto-tenor-bass). This was the kind of example we'd most often analyze and dissect, as well as given assignments to "block in" the three voices under a melody (usually in the top voice) using this method.

And I remember reading or hearing specifically that Brian as a music theory student was given this same assignment in his class, where you'd receive a melody, and sometimes specific chord names, then you'd "block in" the remaining three voices to support it.

And if that's any guide, if you hear "Our Prayer", Brian is the melodic lead on top, Mike is the bass, and the others are singing the other chord tones in between. Which is why as was mentioned those middle voices can be the toughest to sing. Sometimes the way you'd need to fit in one crucial chord tone and have it shift to the next chord created a less-flowing or more angular phrase with less obvious notes and wider interval jumps than either the lead on top or the bass.

My point is not that it is Gregorian chant, but that Oblique Motion gives it the kind of sound that the misconception that it is Gregorian Chant could be drawn from

The point of KittyKat's post, though, was that "Our Prayer" is some kind of simple dipshit non-unique toss-off that anyone of us could write. I think most folks here would agree, even outside being Brian fans, is just not true. I'm no expert, but I'd go as far as to say that, amid a sea of complex music from that era, this one is near the top in terms of just being really, really well-crafted. Doesn't mean it's necessarily the best or anything, but the notion of it being extremely derivative because omg it's a vocal piece with chamber reverb seems really silly, to me.

I think the problem here is that a lot of people have learned the term Gregorian chant from That Same Song

Funny.

They might have heard it in Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame.  ;)

Putting "Our Prayer" into context, at the time in 1966 when the song was originally recorded, were there other bands or artists among Brian's peers in the "pop/rock" field that had done or were doing anything like "Our Prayer"? I can't think of any off the top of my head, if anyone knows of any please chime in!

Within a few short years, there was something of a mini-movement where groups would do "rock prayers", like the Electric Prunes' "Kyrie" from the album "Mass In F Minor" which later ended up in Easy Rider, The Association's "Requiem" which hinted at it in '67, etc., grafting traditional church music sounds onto rock backgrounds or in a rock context.

I never said it was "dipshit" and that"anyone of us could write (it)."  It's derivative of other forms, yes, and you seem to have clued into that fact. As have others. I was wrong about saying it was based on Gregorian chant, but then, so was David Leaf.  It's also very short. It's impressive compared to most other pop/rock writers, but if you look at what was happening in music at the time, Brian was not the only person to experiment with other types of music. The Yardbirds did Gregorian chant, for instance. The Beatles were doing Indian music. The Stones with Brian Jones were experimenting with adding world music sounds to pop songs. The Moody Blues were adding orchestrations to pop music. I could go on, but you get the point.

Don't be so hard on yourself.  It is "reminiscent" or "harkens back to" that Gregorian Chant. Maybe "inspired" is a better term.  And gf2002 was correct about that forbidden 7th chord.  God Knows why.  Probably some church nonsense.  And, it is impressive. 

Leaf, on the other hand, was a BB author and should have verified underlying facts. 

But, lots of work is derivative and style-generalized. Lots of folk music sounds similar. And basic rock-style as well.  As long as it is not plagiarized, note-for-note, no problem.   ;)

It's not about "experimenting", though, it should be about how the track is crafted. You're dismissing a song solely based on its style, which is, to me, not a valid reason to do so.

And fuck, if we want to get into discrediting the band solely because this song is kind of derivative of this style or kind of derivative of that style, you may as well give up on the Beach Boys. I'm not saying there wasn't innovation happening at times with the Beach Boys, but again, craft and, you know, the song doing something for you and speaking to you should matter far beyond "It's guys singing harmonies in an echo chamber, it's been done before."

Agreed. To say something is "derivative" implies that it's just an imitation of someone else's work. I don't see imitation. I see influence. And, if we're going to disregard influence, then we have to disregard most artists, because everyone takes something from others that came before. It's what you do with those influences that matters. I think "Our Prayer" expressed something that Brian wanted to say in "Smile," and it not only did it in a way that was unique for pop/rock at the time, but was also moving and beautifully crafted.

That's all that matters to me.

Now I'm waiting for someone to rip the crap out of Danny Boy...

Wow! Are they selling Brian's golden turds at the shows? They should! Sounds like a good investment to me.  ::)

I would have loved nothing more than if Mike and Bruce were on stage with Brian, Jeff, and the group. I think the majority of the people who read this board feel the same way.

Give Brian and Jeff some credit. This is a really cool pairing. On the other hand I'd like to see all of the Beach Boys back together real soon.

I don't know about you but I can't stand hyperboles like "I love this album". Love is a strong word, and music listening is a strange sociology. If somebody is ambivalent, so-so, or simply fond of a work, that's fine by me for them to admit. I would never tell anybody that I love Pet Sounds if the only tracks that I deeply felt from it were Wouldn't It Be Nice and Sloop John B. It's a 40-minute piece with a lot of meat; anybody who enthuses the main course ought to be demanding the chef for dessert. And I didn't appreciate Pet Sounds at all until I heard Sessions a couple of years ago. It's not just some box set.

There is always some hyperbole.  But, I can say that I LOVED hearing Brian do I'm Waiting for the Day, at sound check the other day.  One of the greatest things about aging, is that your treasures in life become more precious on some level and the whole "youth" thing becomes immaterial.  All those words learned by heart a million years ago, come right back, in a better and softer context.  And, that Brian picked that song, indicates a real fondness that he might have as well.  Not a hit, but lovely, with that yearning quality that his brothers both embodied while performing.  

The only thing I like better than Pet Sounds, is Pet Sounds Sessions! That is the neatest auditory backstory of all. I think you're correct!  ;)

Wild Honey has been a hot topic since last April.  And lucky me, I saw it the first night that the Touring Band did it in NJ.  Now I've seen Blondie do it only last week.  But, found the "karaoke" version (yes, I'd say the Boys invented karaoke!) from Stack-o'- Tracks! It is floating around on YouTube and I highly recommend it.  Best, listened to, with some decent headphones to hear the guitar and, percussion - very neat!  ;)

Meh. Love takes on many forms and goes to many extents and you're really splitting hairs. Expressing what you get out of music with language is always gonna tell about 1% of the story, if that. I realize it's "not just some box set", but I like (a lot) or love every single song on Pet Sounds and, to me, that's absolutely enough to justify saying "I love Pet Sounds" or "Pet Sounds is an influence on my life". I'm not sure why it's assumed she only likes two songs from the album. A couple other people I've talked to want to (not you) turn this into some kind of "That dumb bitch didn't even know about the Pet Sounds box!" dick measuring contest.

A dick measuring contest of any sort is about the last thing an art form needs. You like it, you like it. You love it, you love it. If it makes you feel good, there's no need to over-think it or try to validate your appreciation of it over someone else's. f*** that shit forever and ever. Katy Perry comes up to me and tells me she loves The Beach Boys, I say "Cool" or "Hey, me too, let's talk about it", not, "Psh, you cunt, your music's terrible, have you even fucking heard take 3 of 'Trombone Dixie'?"

She loves Pet Sounds, fine. But for her to claim it has influenced all her music is delusional, self validating dogshit.

"Bro do you even lift?"

sh*t FROM A DOG'S ASS

It's not unreasonable to ask a musician if they own or have ever heard the "Pet Sounds" boxed set. It's an opportunity to hear how music is put together. Of course, Katy isn't a producer of her own work, but you'd think she'd be curious to hear something like that. I hope Jimmy gives her that boxed set. It might change her life. Or not.

I've never heard Katy's early work, but she was a more conventional singer-songwriter at one point. Perhaps she was more influenced by "Pet Sounds" then, or at least inspired by it. I give her credit for being familiar with it. She's one of the more inoffensive of the singers of her type.

Wasn't unreasonable of Fallon to ask her at all. His response was more the "Hey, me too, let's talk about it" kind of thing I was talking about earlier.

No more delusional than all those grunge bands from the 90's claiming they were influenced by PS or the Beatles catalog.

Early on in my fandom I made the mistake of buying an album by Spaceman 3, who claimed to have been influenced by Smile. The album also boasted arrangements by VDP.

What a pile of shite it was. I never made such a mistake again.

Instead I sought out the music which had obviously inspired Brian, and this was the beginning a musical journey which took me back 800 years. Far more rewarding.

guitarfool, thanks for the photos. :) I can see them now. (Was offline during the weekend.) Like in the vid, there's a smile in Brian's face that really reminds me of the young Brian.

I would like to point out that the version of Danny Boy played in concert is longer and features an elaborate harmony beginning that wasn't featured on the Fallon show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYxZ-nTLVKQ

Grunge will always be a fairly meaningless tag to me but out of all the bands labelled by it, I'd say Stone Temple Pilots had some fairly Beatles inspired songs in their latter days.

What were the Grunge bands who said they were influenced by Pet Sounds?

Pearl Asylum, Soundhoney, and The Screaming Jam.

lol

You guys are being presumptuous nerds. So someone can't be influenced by someone else unless their music sounds like that artist? f*** that. Prince is a huuge influence for me but not one of my songs sounds like him. Does that mean I am a liar? I guess so.

It is a pretty weird stance to take, isn't it? Most artists would prefer to do their own thing and not imitate their influences!

I think so, too. Track title is probably just 'fan service' / inside joke. (But who knows. It's Brian Wilson. He's crazy.)

You've crossed the Run, James, Run streams, haven't you? It happens. The track title to me kinda seems a bit... Foskett.

I personally think you're confusing "being influenced by", and "being inspired by" something.

Being influenced by something would infer that you have taken something of said influence, be it vocal harmonies, or instrumentation, and moulded or changed that to fit your own sound. I think to claim influence, there needs to be something there that you can say, "yep, that person was definitely influenced by so and so" A  lot of these people who claim they are influenced by Brian Wilson are at best self delusional, and at worst just name checking to be trendy.

I would say that you admire Prince, and his music maybe prompted you to create your own, but unless there is something, however small that you can say you learnt or derived from one of his songs and it directly affected a stylistic choice, then your music is not influenced by him, it was inspired by him.



Take Brian's own influences. The Four Freshman and Phil Spector. You wouldn't even need to be told who influenced him. Whereas he was inspired by the Beatles, and his music sounds nothing like theirs.

Weird... but thanks for noticing. :P

This is great! Just what I expected, after watching the 2012 performance on Jimmy Fallon. Both numbers have seamless flow, but I mostly enjoyed "Danny Boy" - excellent guitar jamming by Beck, whom I have a big respect for. "Our Prayer" is good, only the harmonies sound a bit unfinished, as if it lacks 1 additional voice/register. That said & all things aside, it was enough for me seeing The BBs (aka BAD), their happy smiling faces & various awkward but cute gestures & mannerisms. I don't care that they were just sitting with nothing to do - they deserve to have a rest, albeit in front of millions of TV/Inet viewers. It's the BBs we're talking about, the No. 1 American band! Though of course, Brian's own band is awesome too.

Some jolly interesting comments here, e.g. by guitarfool2002. He made excellent points around Katy's remark: indeed, people tend to have obsessions over their favorites, so they keep following them everywhere, check every interview, absorb what their idols say etc. It's especially true of current generation, so that'd be cool to observe youngsters standing in line for buying Pet Sounds in stores. Maybe Placebo effect could work here too, i.e. Katy's fans so blindly love her, that their ears would automatically accept this record. Generally, I like Katy's voice, she's arguably one of the better singers today, very professional in concerts (according to various videos).

2keysarsoze001: you're right about mid-ranges being the most difficult to learn in choir. Nearly every multi-layered harmonizing is sth. of a task.
Finally, agree with phirnis' post re Al's classy fingersnaps (in addition to his crafty whistling). It surely mixed well with Jeff's playing.

I agree with you one million percent.

and I disagree with you one million percent (the OP).  I doubt her sincerity and I don't think anything is going to sway me from that stance. 

Agreed.

A Beach Boys' song was featured in a Jimmy Fallon sketch last night.  Check it out:

http://youtu.be/LLQvcolazDI (http://youtu.be/LLQvcolazDI)

Didn't get the humor but their mugs & African dancing were entertaining to see. I recognized that Laurie actor from the "Stuart Little" movies. Thought he was square before. Anyway, I'm glad that Mr. Fallon doesn't lean towards the 60s songs, he enjoys 80s 'cheese' (c) like "Kokomo" as well. In other words, he's an all-around BBs fan. As for "Crazy" by Patsy Cline, I never heard this song & artist in general, only know her by name.