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Non Smiley Smile Stuff => The Sandbox => Topic started by: Jason on March 05, 2013, 02:46:24 PM



Title: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Jason on March 05, 2013, 02:46:24 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/05/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-main/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Venezuela is about to destabilize and fast...


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: bgas on March 05, 2013, 02:59:50 PM
>>  " The announcement came hours after Maduro met with the country's top political and military leaders about Chavez's worsening health condition and suggested someone may have deliberately infected Chavez with cancer." << 

 How do you deliberately infect someone with cancer? 


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Jason on March 05, 2013, 03:01:24 PM
Propaganda.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2013, 03:05:42 PM
I bet the CIA is already at work....


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Heteronym on March 05, 2013, 03:43:11 PM
I bet the CIA is already at work....
They already were. What, you think this whole talk about AIDS being cured has nothing to do with Chavez's cancer? It's plain obvious that the american government intends to hide the fact that they master cancer to a point where it can be induced and cured. The truth lies with chavism.

Now: new elections in 30 days.  :afro

Seriously though: that statement is part of Maduro's strategy to keep Chavez' light upon him. Blaming it on "the enemies" that Chavez had been kicking out of his country for 14 years is a good way to do it.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 05, 2013, 03:44:40 PM
My prediction is that Venezuela is f***ed. Hopefully I'm wrong.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Awesoman on March 05, 2013, 07:54:29 PM
Hopefully they will install someone who would ease up on all the Socialist crap they have going on there and be open to better relations with the States.  But I agree with the consensus that the country will probably implode. 


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 05, 2013, 08:33:05 PM
Personally, I think the last thing they need is to open better relations with the States, whose only interest in the country has been to exploit their oil, which is why we are meant to hate the "socialist crap" that prevents the US from their exploitation.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Bean Bag on March 07, 2013, 08:22:59 PM
One down...  :-D

But seriously...if he was truly a Christian...  then I hope that his stay in hell is only long enough for him to understand and figure out how bad he f***ed people.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on March 07, 2013, 08:42:27 PM
Nice to see you back Bean!



Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mendota Heights on March 08, 2013, 08:29:07 AM
One down...  :-D

But seriously...if he was truly a Christian...  then I hope that his stay in hell is only long enough for him to understand and figure out how bad he f***ed people.
Isn't Christianity about forgiving people?


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on March 08, 2013, 02:14:39 PM
One down...  :-D

But seriously...if he was truly a Christian...  then I hope that his stay in hell is only long enough for him to understand and figure out how bad he f***ed people.
Isn't Christianity about forgiving people?

No, it's about being forgiven YOURSELF....

That's how guys like George W Bush can sleep at night with a smile


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 08, 2013, 03:17:02 PM
Remember, if you  :love  Hugo be sure to buy Citgo gasoline, the gas with Pfastbux!
1,000,000 how many millions what this guy worth? ,000

(oh well not an option for me)


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mendota Heights on March 08, 2013, 03:20:42 PM
No, it's about being forgiven YOURSELF....
Christianity is about the belief in an iron age Jewish tribal god... (and I don't have the energy to finish the sentence, it's gettin' late). :)

Have you seen Bush's paintings by the way? They are very introvert, pretty sure he does not smile a lot.

Here is a summary of Christianity (I do have the energy to copy and paste):

"The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: the captain on March 08, 2013, 03:49:46 PM
"The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."

Oh come on...it's not just symbolically, depending on your sect of Christianity. (Catholicism teaches literal eating of flesh and drinking of blood [transubstantiation], and certain types of Lutheranism teach it is simultaneously symbolic and literal.)


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: rab2591 on March 08, 2013, 05:38:29 PM
No, it's about being forgiven YOURSELF....
Christianity is about the belief in an iron age Jewish tribal god... (and I don't have the energy to finish the sentence, it's gettin' late). :)

Have you seen Bush's paintings by the way? They are very introvert, pretty sure he does not smile a lot.

Here is a summary of Christianity (I do have the energy to copy and paste):

"The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."

This pretty much sums it up:

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/650dc0e337d73da3db8d60e662d0a031/tumblr_mis7b7MjTs1qjsewxo1_1280.png)


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 08, 2013, 07:28:21 PM
 :lol


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mendota Heights on March 09, 2013, 12:23:45 AM
:lol
Not so fast! A caller has proof God exists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8MXjlYZj5M

Jeff Dee's reaction is priceless.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Bean Bag on March 11, 2013, 07:30:10 AM
Nice to see you back Bean!


Wooohooo!!!


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Bean Bag on March 11, 2013, 07:31:35 AM
One down...  :-D

But seriously...if he was truly a Christian...  then I hope that his stay in hell is only long enough for him to understand and figure out how bad he f***ed people.
Isn't Christianity about forgiving people?
Which is why I said I HOPE his stay in hell is only as long as it need be.  ;)


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Bean Bag on March 11, 2013, 07:32:48 AM
No, it's about being forgiven YOURSELF....
Christianity is about the belief in an iron age Jewish tribal god... (and I don't have the energy to finish the sentence, it's gettin' late). :)

Have you seen Bush's paintings by the way? They are very introvert, pretty sure he does not smile a lot.

Here is a summary of Christianity (I do have the energy to copy and paste):

"The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."
Interesting.  Now tell me about Islam and their Prophet Muhammad. 


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mendota Heights on March 11, 2013, 10:37:02 AM
No, it's about being forgiven YOURSELF....
Christianity is about the belief in an iron age Jewish tribal god... (and I don't have the energy to finish the sentence, it's gettin' late). :)

Have you seen Bush's paintings by the way? They are very introvert, pretty sure he does not smile a lot.

Here is a summary of Christianity (I do have the energy to copy and paste):

"The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."
Interesting.  Now tell me about Islam and their Prophet Muhammad. 
It is indeed interesting how that somewhat unlikely story has permeated Western societies for some 1700 years.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Bean Bag on March 11, 2013, 01:14:32 PM
It is indeed interesting how that somewhat unlikely story has permeated Western societies for some 1700 years.
1700 years?  What unlikely story has permeated Western society for 1700 years?


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Paulos on March 13, 2013, 12:41:48 PM
It is indeed interesting how that somewhat unlikely story has permeated Western societies for some 1700 years.
1700 years?  What unlikely story has permeated Western society for 1700 years?

The unlikely story about the magic zombie Jew.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mendota Heights on March 13, 2013, 01:29:53 PM
It is indeed interesting how that somewhat unlikely story has permeated Western societies for some 1700 years.
1700 years?  What unlikely story has permeated Western society for 1700 years?

The unlikely story about the magic zombie Jew.
That story plus many other.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mendota Heights on March 13, 2013, 01:32:54 PM
1700 years?  What unlikely story has permeated Western society for 1700 years?
Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire in the late 300's, before that Christianity did not influence Western life that much. I can not list all of the unlikely stories here, but can you please tell me how koala bears made it from mount Ararat to Australia? Did they walk or swim?


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 13, 2013, 02:32:50 PM
1700 years?  What unlikely story has permeated Western society for 1700 years?
Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire in the late 300's, before that Christianity did not influence Western life that much. I can not list all of the unlikely stories here, but can you please tell me how koala bears made it from mount Ararat to Australia? Did they walk or swim?

It did have influence but a different kind and it took on a different shape. Before Constantine established Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, Christianity was in the words of Christian theologian Hans KŸng a "persecuted church" because they took the gospels seriously and applied them honestly - meaning, in a way that would be assumed today by the religious right to be radically left-wing. Constantine took over the religion and established it, according to KŸng as the "persecuting church," making it the religion for the rich and the powerful, no longer concerned primarily with helping the poor and suffering as it was before. And it has, primarily, been that way since in the more powerful countries.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: the captain on March 13, 2013, 02:53:14 PM
When it comes to pre-Roman Christianity, there was no "it" so much as a "them." Remember that in those years there were many (relatively different) writings and practices held sacred by different sects that considered themselves Christian. It's with Constantine, councils such as the Council of Nicaea, and the consequent structure that you get a Christianity.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 13, 2013, 03:32:37 PM
When it comes to pre-Roman Christianity, there was no "it" so much as a "them." Remember that in those years there were many (relatively different) writings and practices held sacred by different sects that considered themselves Christian. It's with Constantine, councils such as the Council of Nicaea, and the consequent structure that you get a Christianity.

Good point.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Moon Dawg on March 13, 2013, 04:06:15 PM
["The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."

 A literal definition such as this is more less the agnostic equivalent of Christian fundamentalism.

 Let's try it like this: There is a life force which which humanity emanates. In this world it is unknowable. It does not exclude science or rationalism. We call it God. Once long ago, a guy called Jesus was in touch with said "force" as a living presence within himself that was beyond what any other human had ever known. Because of his gift, Jesus preached the Word and some followed. Ultimately, he was persecuted by the State for what he said, and as result took the hit for all humanity. Several thousand years later, he still has many followers all over the world.

 Is this technically Christianity? I don't know, but it sounds better than smug smirks about a magic zombie Jew. Things that stand the test of time usually entail some substance.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 13, 2013, 04:23:51 PM
Things that stand the test of time usually entail some substance.

Sort of. I mean, I agree with you that the zombie Jesus is smug and sillly. But there are plenty of things of substance that have not stood the test of time. The reason why Christianity has stood the test of time has little to do with its substance - it has to do with the fact that it was the central religion of colonial Europe which also happened to be the most powerful area of the world. It survived in a way that other ideas and belief systems didn't because of its ongoing association with authority and power. Had Constantine not made Christianity the official religion the Roman Empire, it is all but entirely unlikely we would see Christianity in the form that it takes today with the kind of widespread support it has. And as Luther suggests above, Christianity has very little to do with Jesus. Our contemporary understanding of Christianity results from events that occurred several hundred years after the events described in The New Testament, as Constantine and the Empire fundamentally re-conceived Christianity and what it meant to those who might call themselves Christian. Much of what he did holds today and continues to inform our understanding of what Christianity is.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mendota Heights on March 14, 2013, 09:53:54 AM
Things that stand the test of time usually entail some substance.
Christianity has not stood the test of time really. Its passages relating to cosmology, abiogenesis, biology, historical facts and so on are flawed at best and downright wrong in many cases.

There is a life force which which humanity emanates. In this world it is unknowable.
How can you claim something exists if it is unknowable? Even if it exists you would not know about it because it is unknowable.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: drbeachboy on March 14, 2013, 10:37:39 AM
Things that stand the test of time usually entail some substance.
Christianity has not stood the test of time really. Its passages relating to cosmology, abiogenesis, biology, historical facts and so on are flawed at best and downright wrong in many cases.

There is a life force which which humanity emanates. In this world it is unknowable.
How can you claim something exists if it is unknowable? Even if it exists you would not know about it because it is unknowable.
It's something called "Faith". Apparently, you nor I possess much of it, but it is what makes most, if not all religions tick. Now, please answer the questions asked of you regarding Islam. I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mike's Beard on March 14, 2013, 11:46:21 AM

It's something called "Faith". Apparently, you nor I possess much of it, but it is what makes most, if not all religions tick. Now, please answer the questions asked of you regarding Islam. I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.

That's the religon you can't make fun of on South Park or extremists will try to kill you.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: drbeachboy on March 14, 2013, 11:58:19 AM

It's something called "Faith". Apparently, you nor I possess much of it, but it is what makes most, if not all religions tick. Now, please answer the questions asked of you regarding Islam. I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.

That's the religon you can't make fun of on South Park or extremists will try to kill you.
Indeed! :) I figured that's why he was avoiding an answer. Amazing how people will continue to mock when there won't be any reprisals to worry about.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mendota Heights on March 14, 2013, 02:11:00 PM

It's something called "Faith". Apparently, you nor I possess much of it, but it is what makes most, if not all religions tick. Now, please answer the questions asked of you regarding Islam. I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.

That's the religon you can't make fun of on South Park or extremists will try to kill you.
Indeed! :) I figured that's why he was avoiding an answer. Amazing how people will continue to mock when there won't be any reprisals to worry about.
That is not true at all. The reason why I did not answer him was because I did not really understand what type of answer he wanted (his question was not defined in any good way and I did not see how Islam is relevant in a discussion about the core concept of Christianity). If he wants to know things about Islam then why not just google them? I am pretty sure all the questions he has on Islam can be answered without me telling him the answer.

I am certainly not afraid of speaking my mind here or in real life. I do that all the time and since I am a libertarian, Austrian and anti-Cultural Marxist (all reality based common sense ideologies) 99 % of the people I talk to disagree with me and they often become hostile. I have no problem criticizing Islam - a religion I do not like one bit. It is based on an iron age patriarchal clan oriented social and judicial structure where the most important thing is the family, not nations, not non-family members, not individuals and certainly not women.

The view on sexuality found in Islamic countries is the opposite of what I advocate and find human. If you want me to give you one single reason why Islamic countries look and (dys)function the way they do it is because of their to us different view on sexuality and what it means to have sex (in a hierarchical sense). If you are raped you have lost your honor and your family's honor. If you rape you have shown your above that person's family in the society. That is why raped women are stoned to death or buried alive, because they have dishonored their family.

Since the family is the most important unit in Islamic countries male family members have to make sure men of other families are not allowed to have children with said family's women. Women therefor have to wear things like niqab and burqa to prevent male non-family members from being attracted to them and to prevent consensual sex and rape. That is the reason why women in many cases are not allowed to leave the home without the company of a male family member, drive a car, choose her own husband or even boyfriend. Since it is important to keep the family intact cousin marriage is common and the result is a population more prone to genetic disorders. In order to maintain this anti-human social structure much submission, violence, coercion and cruel punishments are needed.

Here is a good example of Islamic mindset (from 2002):

"Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers." (Source:  BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm)).

This is a short answer and the topic could be expanded upon further.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Jason on March 14, 2013, 03:06:12 PM
All three Abrahamic religions are irremediably f***ed.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 14, 2013, 03:45:34 PM
If you want me to give you one single reason why Islamic countries look and (dys)function the way they do it is because of their to us different view on sexuality and what it means to have sex (in a hierarchical sense).

I disagree. Indonesia has the world's largest Islamic population and they hardly "dysfunction" in the way that you describe. The reason is because they have had the overwhelming support of the Western world - in particular in their carrying out some of the worst atrocities of the second half of the twentieth century. They have not had their population repeatedly terrorized by outsiders because they have been, for the most part, friendly to Western business interests.  Indonesia doesn't have the same problems as some other Islamic countries because we haven't actively worked to destroy it. Rather, because they were destroying, in fact carrying out a near genocide of a people we didn't like, we supported them.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: the captain on March 14, 2013, 04:10:04 PM
It's my opinion to talk about what a religion inherently is (be it good or bad) is impossible because they are constantly changing based on their context of time, place, and situation. I've read recently--and I am way out of my league on this, by the way, so forgive me--that race is increasingly discounted among scientists as being a legitimate categorization, that there are more differences within any superficial categorization of race than there are between them. (I think the idea was that historical definition of race was mostly based on skin color and presumably nationality / location. Again, out of my league so I can't back any of this up without digging for the articles.) That concept rings true to me about religion. Thus we end up with "Christianity," which, depending on where you live and your particular bent, may seem virtually unrecognizable to someone else going by the same name.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 14, 2013, 04:21:19 PM
Also, Libertarianism is reality based? If that's the case, how come I've never heard anyone be able to explain how it works without using metaphor, similie or examples of economic exchange that have never occurred in the history of humanity?


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: rab2591 on March 14, 2013, 04:33:42 PM
It's my opinion to talk about what a religion inherently is (be it good or bad) is impossible because they are constantly changing based on their context of time, place, and situation. I've read recently--and I am way out of my league on this, by the way, so forgive me--that race is increasingly discounted among scientists as being a legitimate categorization, that there are more differences within any superficial categorization of race than there are between them. (I think the idea was that historical definition of race was mostly based on skin color and presumably nationality / location. Again, out of my league so I can't back any of this up without digging for the articles.) That concept rings true to me about religion. Thus we end up with "Christianity," which, depending on where you live and your particular bent, may seem virtually unrecognizable to someone else going by the same name.

Well, Christianity is inherently, at it's core, the belief that the son of god died for our sins (at least it has been this way for 100s of years). Now, there are a billion ways to worship this man, many different ways to baptize, many different ways to preach - so trying to narrow all these down to one specific label is impossible. But the core belief is easily spotted in any different sect of Christianity.

Regardless, from my perspective, the core belief makes no sense at all...I can't believe people still buy into it. Then again, I was a church goer for 15 some years, attended countless youth rallys, mission trips, outreach programs, etc, and I believed with all my heart....until I actually read the bible from cover to cover.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: smilethebeachboysloveyou on March 14, 2013, 04:37:57 PM
If you want me to give you one single reason why Islamic countries look and (dys)function the way they do it is because of their to us different view on sexuality and what it means to have sex (in a hierarchical sense).

I disagree. Indonesia has the world's largest Islamic population and they hardly "dysfunction" in the way that you describe. The reason is because they have had the overwhelming support of the Western world - in particular in their carrying out some of the worst atrocities of the second half of the twentieth century. They have not had their population repeatedly terrorized by outsiders because they have been, for the most part, friendly to Western business interests.  Indonesia doesn't have the same problems as some other Islamic countries because we haven't actively worked to destroy it. Rather, because they were destroying, in fact carrying out a near genocide of a people we didn't like, we supported them.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the way that you use the word "they"; it seems to equate the general population of Indonesia with the Suharto regime, even though it was ultimately the democratically elected government that ended the occupation of East Timor, much to the Indonesian military's chagrin.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: the captain on March 14, 2013, 04:39:57 PM
It's my opinion to talk about what a religion inherently is (be it good or bad) is impossible because they are constantly changing based on their context of time, place, and situation. I've read recently--and I am way out of my league on this, by the way, so forgive me--that race is increasingly discounted among scientists as being a legitimate categorization, that there are more differences within any superficial categorization of race than there are between them. (I think the idea was that historical definition of race was mostly based on skin color and presumably nationality / location. Again, out of my league so I can't back any of this up without digging for the articles.) That concept rings true to me about religion. Thus we end up with "Christianity," which, depending on where you live and your particular bent, may seem virtually unrecognizable to someone else going by the same name.

Well, Christianity is inherently, at it's core, the belief that the son of god died for our sins (at least it has been this way for 100s of years). Now, there are a billion ways to worship this man, many different ways to baptize, many different ways to preach - so trying to narrow all these down to one specific label is impossible. But the core belief is easily spotted in any different sect of Christianity.

Regardless, from my perspective, the core belief makes no sense at all...I can't believe people still buy into it. Then again, I was a church goer for 15 some years, attended countless youth rallys, mission trips, outreach programs, etc, and I believed with all my heart....until I actually read the bible from cover to cover.

I was raised in a conservative Christian family, myself.* (See: my name.) But I'd actually take umbrage with your first statement, as there are nominally Christian denominations that do not preach a literal Jesus as having been necessary even as a historical figure, instead focusing on the symbolism of redemption. Some Christian denominations do not believe in hell, which of course does away with the need for a heaven and the forgiveness of sins. These are some relatively modern variants. To go the opposite direction, there was tremendous debate in the first few centuries as to who Jesus was, whether he was a) God, b) the only son of God, c) a son of God, d) a healer and saint, e) you get my point. Basic concepts such as his nature, the death and resurrection, heaven and hell, etc. were debated up until what became the Catholic church achieved a monopoly on the topic.

So basically I agree that we all have some kind of idea as to what constitutes Christianity (or any other religion), but you can almost always find something that contradicts it.

*I probably ought to add that I'm an atheist now (and really since my late teens, so for the past 15-20 years), though one who finds religion really interesting.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 14, 2013, 04:59:57 PM
If you want me to give you one single reason why Islamic countries look and (dys)function the way they do it is because of their to us different view on sexuality and what it means to have sex (in a hierarchical sense).

I disagree. Indonesia has the world's largest Islamic population and they hardly "dysfunction" in the way that you describe. The reason is because they have had the overwhelming support of the Western world - in particular in their carrying out some of the worst atrocities of the second half of the twentieth century. They have not had their population repeatedly terrorized by outsiders because they have been, for the most part, friendly to Western business interests.  Indonesia doesn't have the same problems as some other Islamic countries because we haven't actively worked to destroy it. Rather, because they were destroying, in fact carrying out a near genocide of a people we didn't like, we supported them.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the way that you use the word "they"; it seems to equate the general population of Indonesia with the Suharto regime, even though it was ultimately the democratically elected government that ended the occupation of East Timor, much to the Indonesian military's chagrin.

I entirely agree. I apologize if my choice of words indicated otherwise, or placed blame where it shouldn't have been placed. The fact is that there was certainly a schism between Suharto and popular opinion in Indonesia, which is why he took power in the 1960s with a bloodbath that sent hundreds of thousands of people to their deaths.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: rab2591 on March 14, 2013, 06:37:51 PM
It's my opinion to talk about what a religion inherently is (be it good or bad) is impossible because they are constantly changing based on their context of time, place, and situation. I've read recently--and I am way out of my league on this, by the way, so forgive me--that race is increasingly discounted among scientists as being a legitimate categorization, that there are more differences within any superficial categorization of race than there are between them. (I think the idea was that historical definition of race was mostly based on skin color and presumably nationality / location. Again, out of my league so I can't back any of this up without digging for the articles.) That concept rings true to me about religion. Thus we end up with "Christianity," which, depending on where you live and your particular bent, may seem virtually unrecognizable to someone else going by the same name.

Well, Christianity is inherently, at it's core, the belief that the son of god died for our sins (at least it has been this way for 100s of years). Now, there are a billion ways to worship this man, many different ways to baptize, many different ways to preach - so trying to narrow all these down to one specific label is impossible. But the core belief is easily spotted in any different sect of Christianity.

Regardless, from my perspective, the core belief makes no sense at all...I can't believe people still buy into it. Then again, I was a church goer for 15 some years, attended countless youth rallys, mission trips, outreach programs, etc, and I believed with all my heart....until I actually read the bible from cover to cover.

I was raised in a conservative Christian family, myself.* (See: my name.) But I'd actually take umbrage with your first statement, as there are nominally Christian denominations that do not preach a literal Jesus as having been necessary even as a historical figure, instead focusing on the symbolism of redemption. Some Christian denominations do not believe in hell, which of course does away with the need for a heaven and the forgiveness of sins. These are some relatively modern variants. To go the opposite direction, there was tremendous debate in the first few centuries as to who Jesus was, whether he was a) God, b) the only son of God, c) a son of God, d) a healer and saint, e) you get my point. Basic concepts such as his nature, the death and resurrection, heaven and hell, etc. were debated up until what became the Catholic church achieved a monopoly on the topic.

So basically I agree that we all have some kind of idea as to what constitutes Christianity (or any other religion), but you can almost always find something that contradicts it.

*I probably ought to add that I'm an atheist now (and really since my late teens, so for the past 15-20 years), though one who finds religion really interesting.

All very true. I guess the baptist/methodist teachings of my youth are far too engrained in my mind haha.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mike's Beard on March 15, 2013, 11:23:22 AM
All three Abrahamic religions are irremediably f***ed.

All religions are irremediably f***ed in my eyes, but yes Islamic ones take the biscuit.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 15, 2013, 12:02:27 PM
All three Abrahamic religions are irremediably f***ed.

All religions are irremediably f***ed in my eyes, but yes Islamic ones take the biscuit.

As TRBB suggests though, Abrahamic religions include Islam along with Christianity and Judaism.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mike's Beard on March 15, 2013, 12:21:46 PM
Actually I'd put Judasim at the top simply because it's custom to have part of your dick chopped off, no thanks!


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist on March 15, 2013, 11:34:06 PM
this conversation serves NO PURPOSE

I mean I know it's the sandbox but come one people we don't need to turn it into the catbox


Title: .
Post by: halblaineisgood on March 16, 2013, 12:48:24 AM
.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on March 16, 2013, 12:52:16 AM
What's Yer Favorite Menu Item Guys?????



Myself: Chicken,Bacon & Swiss w/ potato cakes

The Jamocha Shakes. Arby's hasn't been edible in years (and once they bought Wendy's, they went WAY downhill as well) but back in my formative years, I used to love to dip the dippity-do-dah-f*** out of the potato cakes in some horsey sauce.


Title: .
Post by: halblaineisgood on March 16, 2013, 01:34:24 AM
.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2013, 06:26:51 AM
this conversation serves NO PURPOSE

I mean I know it's the sandbox but come one people we don't need to turn it into the catbox

I don't know--I don't see it as being a problem. Nobody's fighting one another, the conversation is civil. Admittedly some positions here would offend some people, but that's true of life everywhere. Anyone who wants to add to the so-far-civil discussion certainly is welcome to do so. What's the problem?


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2013, 06:27:49 AM
Also, I haven't had anything from Arby's in years--I decided to spend my bad-habit currency on something I care more about, alcohol, quite some time ago--but I sure used to like those curly fries.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Mendota Heights on March 16, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
this conversation serves NO PURPOSE

I mean I know it's the sandbox but come one people we don't need to turn it into the catbox
Nothing is wrong about honest and open-minded discussions on religion.


Title: Re: Hugo Chavez dead at 58
Post by: Moon Dawg on March 16, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
this conversation serves NO PURPOSE

I mean I know it's the sandbox but come one people we don't need to turn it into the catbox
Nothing is wrong about honest and open-minded discussions on religion.

 Totally agree w/ the Frog here.