The Smiley Smile Message Board

My opinion is that it's likely "Love You." Seems like fans have vastly different opinions on this one.

What do you think?

Smiley Smile.

It's definitely either one of them.  Too close for me to call.

Love You seems not to far off from 15 Big Ones. Smiley Smile seems like a more logical choice. 15 Big Ones from Holland as well, but they were 3 years apart. Going from Pet Sounds to Smiley in a little over a year is insane.

I was going to suggest Smiley Smile too. But wasn't sure if it was as polarizing for content or because it wasn't Smile. But I'm sure you're right.

*sigh*

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in the grand scheme of things, my vote goes to 'Love You'. Among fans, it really seems to be a love or hate thing (rarely do people seem to think it's just alright, or 'good'). An album considered to be the group's last classic by many critics, yet would also likely cause casual listeners to scratch their heads. 'Smiley' contains 'Good Vibrations' & 'Heroes & Villains' ... universally acclaimed.

come on, this one's not that bad !

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I think it's just alright...I like the "drunk" tunes as I call them (Side 1 + Solar System, Love is a Woman) and not so much of the others.

Yes, Hal, it's a list, or it's about to be...

Taking the old poll data and spreading the votes into 5-4-3 and 3-2-1 bundles, you get the following ratios:

Pet Sounds .97; Sunflower .94; Today .92; All Summer Long .92;
Summer Days .89; Friends .89; Wild Honey .86; Surf's Up .84; Love You .84; Holland .83; TWGMTR .81;
20/20 .79; Smiley Smile .76; Shut Down v2 .72;
Carl and the Passions .64; Surfin' USA .62; Stack o'Tracks .61;
Little Deuce Coupe .59; Beach Boys Party .58; Light Album .55;
Surfin' Safari .45; MIU .45; BB85 .44;
Keepin' the Summer Alive .38; Still Cruisin' .38; 15 Big Ones .37; Summer in Paradise .36

The closer to even these two overlapping counts are, the more divided or polarizing the voter opinion is...the ones in bold are the likely "winners" for this concept.

[EDIT: see further below in the thread for what is quite probably a better way to do this, if you are inclined at all to look at it in such a way.]

Love You is it for me. Smiley took me some time but the vocals won me over. Love You just never did it for me outside maybe three or four songs.

Smiley Smile first, 15 Big Ones second.

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Love You - says so in my book, so it must be true.  :old

That nails it for me - how can anyone fail to be won over by the flawless vocals on Smiley? It was hard at first for me to "get" the idea of the BB's singing with such sparse backing; I grew to love it over time. Love You's vocals in no way compare to Smiley's. And the backing gets kind of grating after a few songs.

I dunno - Whenever I see posts about the quality of Love You, most people here seem pretty into it. Smiley even more so. I'd say the BB albums that are most polarizing are ones like MIU, LA, BB85. These albums really split the board straight down the centre into those that find things to enjoy in them and those that revile them!

In the US: Pet Sounds
In the UK: Summer in Paradise

Perhaps, but I've never encountered anyone who has counted MIU, LA, or BB85 as one of the band's greatest albums.  The debate is more over whether the albums are completely unredeemable or whether they have a handful of good songs on them.  They are not "love or hate" albums so much as "hate or tolerate" albums.  "Love You," on the other hand, really does seem to be a "love or hate" album, with few opinions in between.

As far as the mathematical approach goes, I'm not sure I completely understand the formula for calculating, but if you split the votes into 5-4-3 and 3-2-1, won't the formula overrepresent albums that have gotten lots of middling votes (i.e., lots of 3s, some 4s and 2s)?  It seems to me that such an album would have a fairly solid consensus of opinion.  For it to be polarizing, I think it would have to have lots of 5s and 1s or perhaps 4s and 2s with very few 3s.

I don't know... while I wouldn't say I 'love' LA, I'd put it at least as high as Sunflower, and track-for-track I'd say the only 70s albums that beat it are Love You and Carl And The Passions... I certainly don't just tolerate it.

But in general, I'd agree that Love You and Smiley are the two most polarising albums the band ever did. They're also my two personal favourites.

We don't all like Smiley Smile. Other than the two obvious hit songs, it's unlistenable to me.  But I can listen to Surfin' USA all day long.

Yeah.  A lot more was expected of 15 Big Ones.  I like it for what it is, and it's not a bad album except by Beach Boy standards, if not by production value then by song selection, for many people. It was supposed to not only revitalize the fan base but raw in a whole new generation of fans. Not sure it did either.

Yes, in context.  I find "shocking" was the Best of, Volume I, so close to Pet Sounds. There were indicators that the writing was heading in a "Pet Sounds" direction.  

But, at the time, as a teaser, it was helpful, as a relatively new fan, to go back, explore the music,and the respective album theme context. The timing will always be perplexing.  

Actually, I tried to measure it initially along the lines of what you outlined above...but when it's done that way, certain albums can't even be measured because they have no votes below a 3. That's why the overlapping approach got used. But I agree that the approach used is not optimal.

In terms of the poll results at the board, it just doesn't seem that Love You exhibits the level of "polarization" that's being attributed to it. Its average (4.2) is comfortably in the top ten of BB albums as rated here. I do understand why folks view it in that way (the reception at the time, the production, etc.), but the voters here seem much more positively disposed to it. But the passage of time, and the greater willingness of the folks here to open their ears to the music, has probably removed a good bit of the negativity that was once part of the record's reception.

One more look at a math-based approach, and then we'll leave it alone. Looking at the ratio of 5's and 4's to 2's and 1's (and 0's), we get the following:

SD/SN, ASL  --- (not measurable, nothing below 3)
Sunflower 143, Pet Sounds 73, Today 54, Friends 40
20/20 39, Holland 32, WH 30, Surfer Girl 26, Surf's Up 26
Love You 11.3, Shut Down v2 7.3, Surfin' USA 5.8, Smiley Smile 5.45, CATP 5.44
Party 2.3, LDC 2.26, Stack o'Tracks 1.9, Light Album 1.8
Safari 0.52, MIU 0.45, BB85 0.44, Still Cruisin' 0.35, KTSA 0.3, 15BO 0.3, SIP 0.18

Now the scale is wacky, but it's a better way to see the ratio of good to great vs. poor to awful. The albums in the bold-type region are ones where the extremes are closer to even. That group includes three LPs that IMO make sense historically as "polarizing": SS, CATP, and Love You. That said, Love You is at the very top end of that range, with 11 times as many 4's and 5's as 2's, 1's, and 0's.

Apologies if this seems too geeky/wonky. etc.

(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/77684082/MIU+Album+MUDD1058.jpg)

For me, personally it's MIU.  Not the definition of "polarizing" in the sense that it divides/polarizes ALL fans.  The hatred seems fairly universal -- the rest only like it for a song or two.  But there's a small "kook-fringe" that dig MIU.  And we're serious!

(http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/672324/3645211083_43ed00c6e5.jpg)

I still think we should factor in the general public as well. 'Love You' is an album that critics love but tracks from this record rarely make it to any 'best of' releases. Even MIU, LA and So Tough are represented on 50 Big Ones.

I'd say Carl And The Passions. Generally a Top 10 Lowest or Highest item.

I don't think the general public (today) even knows what a Beach Boys album is, save Pet Sounds.  They only know the summer comps.

Now you're talking! There's no reason to hate this record. The people don't like it because they've got that whole "Mike and Al are squares" thing going on. I like this record alot. Very solid and catchy.

I think you're right. In which case, we should simply shrug our shoulders and say "f*** the general public".

Where is the tenderness?

(http://bp2.blogger.com/_kJWWRipRdSk/SDB0DOMwInI/AAAAAAAAAJU/fB7Po1E-RGk/s400/generalpublic.jpg)

A Christmas album would one of the most Pole-erizing album. Tip your waiteress.

No, people don't like it because we don't like hearing Brian shrieking in what sounds like agony but is apparently an attempt to hit his old falsetto notes, bad covers of 50s songs with all the joy of the originals leached out, creepy songs that sexualise children, terrible attempts to stay relevant by mentioning disco, and songs based entirely on a ludicrously over-extended tennis metaphor.

That's unfortunately accurate.

 :'(    You're describing everything I love about M.I.U.     :-D

(http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/badsanta.jpg)

Definitely Love You....would have been Adult Child

I think there's one song on MIU I don't like, but can't remember what it is.

I see someone pulled some stats earlier, but based on the results of 2 "party games" threads from last year, for this board it's gotta be Love You (which I find odd, as it's easily one of their best albums eva);

I agree with Andrew.

Andrew reminded me there are at least two songs I don't like on MIU. Better take another look at the track list.

Probably Peggy Sue.

I love MIU - the sound is crisp, Al's voice is amazing, you can tell the group put quite a bit of time into the backing tracks and vocals. I'll never understand the hate for it.

Nah, I can live with that one,  it's Hey Little Tomboy that I can't handle.  Then Andrew reminded me of the disco dancing one. And, taking my life in my hands here, I really don't care for My Diane, or that style in general.

I've never read someone finds Love You a mixed bag or mediocre. Some love it, some think it's terrible (so do I, albeit for the sound only and not for the songs).

I like side 1 of MIU a lot except Peggy Sue and am not so keen about side 2 except Pitter Patter. The dumb thing about MIU is that the song from it that pops up in compilations is the doo wop cover while there are strong original BB songs on it.

That MIU is not artistic is a fair given, that it's not listenable is false.

Haha! Right on, BeanBag! MIU is the new Love You.

Yes

I would say the album MIU is polarizing itself in that half the songs have that Brian Wilson magic (Bells of Paris, Hey Little Tomboy, Sweet Sunday, My Diane and Match Point). The rest of the songs don't seem to have much heart in them. IMO

But, yeah, now that I see what we mean by polarizing, Love You seems to win based on the votes of top 10 and bottom 10 albums.

I first said Smiley because I defined it as polarizing from its predecessor.

So Tough!

Count me among the rare breed that neither loves nor hates Love You.

You know, I think I have to go in the opposite direction here and say that the earlier albums are really the more polarizing ones. The first 5 albums represent an image that a lot of fans would really like to distance themselves afterall.

It's gotta be Smiley Smile..

You have to really appreciate Harmonies or drugs to get that album

Mostly drugs because when you  :hat, its the greatest album ever made.

And Stereo's just made it so much better..

It's like 2001 a Space Odyssey in Blu-ray, how did we ever watch it before  :hat

Not me.  The closer the distance between me and them, the better I feel.  And where do people think all the rest of the albums came from?

That is on my to-do list. >:D

Yeah, how did we ever listen to those terrible Brian and Carl Wilson mixes made at the time of the album's creation? Why do we listen to any album that isn't remixed on a low budget by people not involved with the album's creation, 45 years after the fact?

One of my biggest regrets is not buying a mint 1967 brother copy of SS when I didn't "get" the album.

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfuvrizLQWCKLv6miOU5IOpHBMhT0sqVED5NAb2arJNjkQo407PMYgtggP)

That'd be just for looks, man, not for drags. Sounds bad. The 80's green label Capitol is the best version.

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This is a factually accurate statement.

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Love You = airplane glue.

I forget who said this (it was someone here) but apparently Love You and amphetamines potentiate each other. :lol

I still haven't listened to the Smile sessions because I want to be in the right head-space before diving in...

Never said the previous mix was terrible.

I just find the stereo mix is incredible, opens up a lot of new doors. Just my opinion, no offense intended

Your right about the early albums, when drinking (or not) they are better than pet sounds. This is because the surf/ drag culture had a huge party element with beer.

Stars and Stripes Vol. 1 = Preparation H

Speaking of Stars & Stripes - Vol. 1 .... Does that mean that the last two Beach Boys' albums were produced by Brian Wilson AND JOE THOMAS? Is Stars & Stripes - Vol 1 recognized as the last Beach Boys' studio album before TWGMTR. Now that Joe Thomas is back in the fold, maybe he and Brian can finish Stars & Stripes - Vol 2 (ducks for cover).

Never having  had a beer or used a drug, I can't attest on their affects on the music or anything else, I just know that I would not be happy without owning the Surfin' USA album for the past 49 years.

 (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WR8T2QGGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://www.cruiselawnews.com/uploads/image/Mercury-2.jpg)

Right on! It certainly isn't an artistic high water mark by any stretch, but MIU gets over on the strength of some very pleasant vocals and melodies. I'd definitely go to bat for it (and have).

Smiley Smile = Reddi Whip

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KTSA= Bruce Johnston

nailed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WAwuSK36Gw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WAwuSK36Gw)

Endless Summer is surely a contender if comps are included!

I'd say Surf's Up is the most polarizing. At least amongst us SmileySmilers....

CatP-ST. For example, I adore it nearly as much as Pet Sounds and Sunflower, while some people crap all over some of my all-time favorite kickass Beach Boys songs. Blows my mind.

If it is intended that polarizing means 'a mixed critical reaction due to the change in the band's musical direction' then you can argue that Pet Sounds, Smiley Smile and Love You all fit the bill equally.

This is the Beach Boys most polar-izing release for an obvious reason:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/52684612/Keepin%20The%20Summer.jpg)

Thing I always found interesting about that cover is that polar bears only live at the North Pole, while you only find polar penguins at the South Pole, so one or other animal must have been brought by the band.
"Dennis, what have I said? No polar bears!"
"Look, I've told you before, I'm not playing unless there are *at least* two polar bears within ten feet of me at all times. It's in my rider."

One more proof of how popular the band is, folks traveling thousand of miles just to hear them perform.  Probably took the Polar Express.

"Hey, Chuck, you think we could bring a polar bear in here?"
"I beg your pardon?"
"Honest to God.."

 I also vote Love You.

KTSA music itself is perhaps not too polarising given MIU and LA preceeded it.

That cover however is the greatest abomination I know of. I find it mind-boggling that anyone would enjoy that cover, it's just so utterly bad. One could argue it's so bad it might be considered cult, but the music in the album is so bland that such an argument goes nowhere. What a pathetic attempt at an album and at making music (considering it's the Beach Boys we are talking about). Yikes what went wrong?

There have been many abominations throughout Earth's history that are greater than a Beach Boys' album cover. I will say though, it pretty much conveys the look of The Beach Boys, circa 1980.

Maybe the artist was trying to make a point about the BBs state at time (stuck in BBs nostalgia world) that was dead on.

Please explain how it conveys nostalgia? Even performing in sand under the bubble doesn't say nostalgia. I can show you pictures throughout their entire career where beaches and surf boards are themes.

That the BBs are in "bubble" of sticking to their fun and sun material while the world has changed with it being winter in the picture. All of this being my opinion.

Yeah, and they also could be playing Goin' On too. The album was released in Winter/March 1980 and they are The BEACH Boys. For the time when it was released, the album cover was fairly spot on. And I know it's only your opinion and exactly why I asked you to explain it. Thanks!

You know you're a Beach Boys fanatic when you - Analyze the cover of "Keepin the summer alive"

I always thought the cover conveyed the message that even at the coldest places on the Earth, you could be warmed up by the music of The Beach Boys. Again, just my opinion.

Indeed!  :lol

Good point :lol

Kinda what I always thought, too.

As much as I hate their fun-in-the-sun image, I've always loved this album cover.

KTSA is one of my favorite album covers, too.

I second that opinion. 

I always thought it conveyed the message that even on a full-price new Beach Boys album, you could get cheap Taiwanese postcard art.

Yep, just like the cheap Taiwanese cardboard Reprise used for the Love You and MIU LPs.

I think there may be a clue to the meaning of the cover in the title of the album. It's pretty obscure but stick with it, you may get it.

I'm slow Stephen, can you give me a hint?

Polar bears and penguins on one picture? Aw, that's nothing! Look at this:

(http://www.michael-fredrich.de/Zufall.jpg)

I always thought the second ice age had come and The Beach Boys were trapped in a mysterious dome by the government, tasked with KEEPIN THE SUMMER ALIVE until the scientists find ways to warm the earth. I reckon this should be the plot of any new Beach Boys movie, as the band fight off inaccurate representations of nature from their dome whilst taking time out to play their greatest hits.


Like, there can a The Thing type dynamic where suddenly they look outside and there, crossing the frozen wastes, is David Marks, busting the perfect solo to Shut Down with the Fender that he has used to survive the many miles, and the band must debate whether to let him in and save his life or whether he is somehow contaminated or 'unsafe'. And Al is found to have smuggled a penguin inside and adopted it as a pet called 'Tuxedo', and he must bid it a tearful farewell as a penguin cannot live in the sunny climes of the dome. Hollywood would eat this up.

Great!, and in a cameo role Phil Spector could play Helen Mirren

Then Bruce's odd behavior during C50 is explained when he turns out to be " the thing".  Brian has to burn "the thing" while wearing a smile-era firehat and having the BBs play "fire"

Haha, Brian looks outside and sees, partially obscured by the driving snow, a tiny man building a wall out in the arid land. Signalling him over, the shivering midget with the frost bitten wig identifies himself as Phil Spector, who has spent the post apocalyptic era building The Wall Of Sound.

"You should have got a dome, it's pretty neat." Brian shouts through the glass. Unable to concede that he was mistaken, Phil Spector curses inaudibly, his piercing stare evident even through his shades. Staggering back, Phil suddenly hears a familiar drum beat, muffled but instantly arresting. Turning around, he can make out Brian snapping his fingers along to his own Be My Baby. Looking out, he waves at Phil jovially.

"That bastard!" Phil screams. In the dome, the record ends, and Brian instinctively moves the arm back to the start of the worn 45.

I should get back to work

No.... ;D

Bruce needs to be grabbed this instant, tied all winter to a f#cking couch and have a sample of his blood tested with something hot.

Lay off the Mirren. That is an absolute GILF.

I think thats what put the reunion on hold...

Fine, as long as you lay off Brucey, the living embodiment of the term BBILF

It's the shorts, isn't it?  ;D

It always comes down to the shorts

Aren't they ALL "drunk songs" on Love You?

Love You is Brian's Tonight's the Night.

And a wonderful ride it is!!

They're not actually shorts. Bruce is still wearing those stage pants Al Jardine lent him when he debuted with the band back in '65.

You've convinced me! ;D

ARE YOU SERIOUS?? WOW.

So... I looked thru this whole thread and I still havent figured out if it pertains to the BBs albums that had the most departure musically or the actual covers of the albums. There seems to be a lot of digressing here.

The best way to sum this up is to dissect every "era" if you will of their existence album wise.
Surfin Safari, Surfin USA, Surfer Girl- the "surf" albums.
Little Deuce Coupe, Shut Down Vol2 - the "hot rod/car" albums.
All Summer Long, Today, Summer Days- the "fun in the sun" albums.
Pet Sounds- the pinnacle.
Smiley Smiley, Wild Honey, Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, Surfs Up, Holland- the progressive albums.
Love You- the last breath of life.

Everything else after '77- A WASTE.

~as Beach Boys advocates we can find the good in ALL their albums but to "polarize" them is stupid.

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Neither. It's about which album most polarises listeners (i.e. creates the greatest divide between people who love it and people who hate it).

The album cover thing started from a pun on "polar" when the thread had already run its course.

I cast my vote for Smiley Smile as well.

Based on this definition, I would say it was Love You.

It's gotta be Love You (as opposed to Smiley Smile). Love You, for as way, way awesome as it is, has some genuinely bad or questionable vocals (lots of them)... mind you, I still dig the vocals and most of the songs. I think many if not most people can agree about the vocal thing, even if we still think they are rad.

Whereas Smiley Smile is polarizing for being weird, underwhelming, and a big letdown. But outside of maybe a song or two, I don't think many will say that there's a large amount of anything that is outright "bad" on the record?

Just IMO...

I think perhaps we're defining polarizing in two different ways. You seem to take it as one person having mixed feelings, while I see it as the general public's reaction being evenly split.

Yeah, I guess I just ultimately think that people will find more justifiable ways to state that Love You either rocks or stinks (and being firmly in one of those camps), as opposed to SS's bizarreness, which I see fans generally as feeling having relatively less "sharp" negative feelings for (outside of disappointments about what it "could've been"), ya know? What a couple of baffling albums to give to a new fan as a gift :)

I gotcha, but for me that's the very reason to pick Smiley over LY. There's really not much to debate...you either "get" it, or you don't, love it or you hate it.

But I guess a lot of the hate comes from the "I'd rather Brian had just finished SMiLE!" ideology. I share that sentiment, but also love Smiley for what it is.

Yeah... basically I think that even though I love both albums to death, LY has more valid things to call out as being questionable, as opposed to SS which is rarely judged independently without the SMiLE deflated expectation on its back.

Personally, I'll take LY as more of a go-to album, but they're both in my absolute top tier BB albums. And I can't get enough of the SS stereo remix.

It's gotta be the 85 album for me. It gets a lot of hate mainly due to it's heavily 80's production, but there is a vocal minority who see it as a great album and can look past the production (and maybe even enjoy it).

I would certainly say, from what I've seen around here, that Love You seems to be the most polarizing.
Some people can't stand it and other (read: cool) people love it.

 I don't personally love or hate Love You (while most of it is great, I can't stand tracks like Solar System and Love Is A Woman), so where does that put me?

Of all the BB albums,  my friends seem to enjoy Love You the least,  I love it in context, but I will admit I find it a little taxing to listen to at time, I have to be in the irght mind set.  I love Smiley Smile,  it's where I went after Pet Sounds (duh?)  and it's what got me "into" the band as a whole. 

That being said I think Smiley SMile is the most polarizing,  as far as love/hate.  I don't think Love You get's quite enough Love to counter the hate.

I get the impression, looking back through the above, that Love You does get enough love. And the "hate" is not real hate, surely? It's more bemusement, as in "What is this??"

If any BB album could be said to deserve any hate thrown its way, in my opinion it's 15 Big Ones. No other BB album makes me cringe, not least thinking of first-time BB record-buyers who bought it purely on the strength of the Boys' legendary reputation. Many of them must have had a Yetnikoff moment of their own.   

In the final analysis, Love You is the most polarizing.   People are at opposite ends, opposing  opinions about it, very few if any people having mixed feelings, such as you might get with 85 or Smiley Smile.  I just flat out DIG Love You and have to return to it periodically.  it is among my favorite Lps of the band.     but as I say this, I realize it really is a Brian album, so really can't be compared to the other group efforts.  Having said that I would default to 85 or SS as most "polarizing".

I really don`t think that`s true. Many people on this very board have stated that they have mixed views in the past.

For example I think The Night Was so Young is great. I think Love is a Woman is terrible.