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IS IT

EDIT: SMILEYS ARE DISABLED IN THIS THREAD

yeh, it is. not vaguely.

Not by 1962 standards.

I don't believe the term Indian in reference to Native Americans is racist. Wrong? Yes. Not racist. I will go as far as to say that the Washington Redskins is not racist. No more so then the Boston Celtics.

The world was different back then. And really, in my opinion it is just an innocent little song. It's not like they are encouraging people to hate Indians. It's just a... wild west love story. A precursor if Heroes and Villains, even?

Mike pronouncing it "injuns" doesn't make it better.  ^-^

Once you learn about the origins of what became the "Ten Little Indians" phrase, then it becomes VERY racist.  ;D

Rio Grande would be racist for that matter.

Hell, might as well pull every Western movie ever made with Native Americans in it. This song is an extension of the original ditty we all learned as kids.

Agree with Mike Eder's comment: not back in 1962.

In cases like this, it comes down to what the dominated culture feels, not the dominant culture. The dominant culture rarely if ever has considered their own racism to be racist.

Wellllll....1962 white person's standards, yes.

Quoted for truth. I too believe that if a dominated culture is offended by a depiction of their culture in film, conversation, song, etc, it's insensitive and too easy to turn around from a position of privilege and tell a culture "that's not racist because of x,y,z".

In our 2012 "politically correct" society, it seems like people make everything out to be racist.
"Ten Little Indians" isnt.

 Nursery rhymes and traditional childrens' music, often has either violent or subversive undertones.  While in undergrad in Early Childhood, I had the task of reading the "real" versions of Grimm, some of the folk tales, some which take strands from the Middle East, and certainly European and Scandinavia.  Rapunzel is an interesting one.  Ring around the Rosie' is another one. Ten Little Indians is usually connected to the Irish Folk tune "Michael Finnegan" and is listed by wiki as Roud Folk Song index #13512.

That said, kids who come to school without some language system, or rhyming poetry schema, whether politically correct or not, often don't know how to count, or the days of the week.   So, as awful as some of them are, with their background and foundation, there is a certain skill set that is taught with these little children's songs.  So the question becomes, whether we use this music and poetry/folk tales/ fairy tales, etc., to teach a skill set and early language development or look for a new model to hand down to our children and grandchildren.

There are many criticisms of Disney versions of folk and fairy tales but on the whole, i think they do a pretty good job with authenticity. One of my favorite Disney movies is Beauty and the Beast (La Belle et la bête) where the creators went back to the original French music manuscripts of the era (Ashman and Menken) to use for the soundtrack.

Does one skip teaching this song which is probably steeped in violent underepinnings or create a subsequent teaching opportunity and include the history of these tales in high school when young people can learn the historic back story but value the language piece as a teaching tool for young children's early development?  

Somehow Gary Usher, Brian and Murry knew how to easily generate a copyright by adapting public domain material. It worked on Red River Rock, Nut Rocker, La Bamba and many other pop tunes. They needed material in a hurry and came up with the Ten Little Indians. I think it was that simple. I don't think they gave it a second thought about its potential to offend anyone.

When this song came out I was 9. I still had my Little Black Sambo book and a Bozo the Clown record (I also had Raindrops by Dee Clark and Monster Mash). The only version of Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Moe I knew was the the one we don't say anymore. And on some Sunday mornings my mom and dad would take me and my brothers to Sambo's, a pancake house franchise. That was then...

The song reduces Natives to the same set of of cliched stereotypes that were concocted by white intellectuals as a way to characterize all Natives as "different" and therefore inferior to more progressive Anglos. Of course, I'm not saying the boys sat down and purposefully tried to demonize Natives but they are employing a long-standing discourse that worked to Other the Native population in order to justify colonial expansion and cultural exploitation. I dn't think this is particularly controversial.

Even if it is racist or a stereotype, they more than made up for it ten years later with The Trader.

And Heroes and Villains/Do You Like Worms (though the latter didn't officially come out for years).

Two words: Mark Twain.

You folks are all judging the song by 21st century "Politically Correct" standards. Remember:The song was recorded in 1962.

The most offensive thing about this song is that it was released by Capitol as the follow-up 45 to Surfin' Safari.

Like I said earlier, you're correct, this wouldn't have offended the sensibilities of many white people at that time. Just as it clearly doesn't now, despite these so-called "Politically Correct" standards.

Agreed. And, a trend in many literature and humanities classes. I find it irresponsible to use a 21st century "lens" in an historic context.  And, it is generally accepted that if you don't agree with the professor, your grade will suffer. 

Critical thinking, I think requires looking at the "context" and social and political circumstances of the respective art or music; not using a 21st century technological standard, retrospectively. 

Had those people lived today, they might think differently. And those folk and fairy tales/chants and music, were largely a part of oral history, not unlike the troubadour models of the Middle Ages.

A most excellent point!!!

Play it for a Native American friend, and let me know how they feel about it, and how it makes you feel to play it for them.

Technically anyone born in the USA to American citizens are Native Americans.

Thank you.  My PC liberal friends go nuts when I call myself a native American.Naturally, i do it on purpose.

Is it racist? Of course it is. Not even vaguely.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to round up all my Beach Boys records and throw them on a bonfire.

A bunch of kids in 1962 record a little nursery rhyme, almost surely without question. It goes out to a listening public that accepts it without question. Not that they bought many copies, mind.

All the while, this harmless little ditty, no matter how you slice it, references and reinforces racist, destructive cultural attitudes. It's easy to see that now. We're far enough removed from the genocide to admit that. But let us not demonize. I haven't heard of many people groups throughout history who have hesitated to stomp the boot on another people group. It's human nature, and it's not pretty.

So I don't hold it against the Beach Boys. Some of my best friends are racists after all.

"Ten Little Indians" was nowhere near as bad as "Indian Giver" by "The 1910 Fruitgum Company".

It's not derogatory in intent and the generalisations are no worse than those in California Girls, Little Miss America (new thread: is the latter sexist?) or Pom Pom Playgirl.

No thank you. The term 'native born American' will do.

They're really your friends?

Yes, because we're all f***ed if the students don't agree with a professor with a double-digit IQ and a triple-digit income.

Well, this was taken worlds more seriously than I thought it'd be.


I believe you're thinking of airport security.

Agatha Christie wrote a book Ten Little Indians in 1939. The title was changed for the American market.

Both those statements are true, however in that combination they are totally misleading. TLI was the revised US title: the book was originally published in the UK as Ten Little n******. My point is that tastes in everything change with time and culture. What seems racist to some now was a perfectly acceptable substitute 60-odd years ago.

In today's PC world, some of the songs that are made today are really deragatory about some group (women, race, etc.). Intentionally so or trying "to make a statement".
Compared to some of today's music, songs like TLI or some of the others mentioned in this thread (ex. Pom Pom Girl, Indian Giver) just seem so innocent and it is doubtful any "statement" or "intention" was trying to be made by them.
Also, back then if there was something "off color" it might have been censored (certainly on TV); now even though a PC world, there seems to be more tolerance to expression (reference some of the songs today).
Different times. Or as the BB just sang: "Strange World".

They should've released their rendition of Running Bear on 15BO - then we could have a whole notha' thread for that!

Whether or not, sheez - it's a circular argument and it can't be resolved. Right up there with Cleveland Indians ballcaps et al. Or sixites teevee...F Troop anyone?

Sensitivity becomes its own religion. Sometimes it's as if Lenny Bruce never lived.

Or they're unfamiliar with his work. Or they have a knee-jerk reaction to certain words and dismiss him then and there without considering context or listening to the very valid message he has on the subject.

Yes, that N word is offensive, because it has nothing to do with being black. It just happens to sound like negro, which does mean black in spanish. Although, because it sounds like the other n word, I don't use that one either. I don't care for the term 'colored' either.  Just curious though, where did 'red' first get used for native Americans? Is that what white people called them? Are native Americans offended by this?

I dunno. Ask an upper middle class, white PC twit if it is, they seem to decide what others find offensive for them.

More-so than I would have ever imagined.  Seriously, I get along with everybody.  Even PC liberals. Heck, when I was a student at UC Berkeley around 1970 I even befriended a communist.  A communist!! He liked the Beach Boys.  What can I say?

This is quickly getting into sandbox territory.

I agree that "The Trader" alone is complete redemption. Move along now, nothing else to see here.

Welp.

I played it for a native american friend. Two, actually.

Both seemed kinda uncomfortable while listening.

We just shrugged and gave each other looks, and then forgot the whole thing.

the few indian beach boy fans that I know personally love that song.


At least 12% of you are pc chowderheads.

Slightly off topic, but has there ever been a time that wasn't political correct?

Yeah, to the extent that it is today, I'd say prior to the early 1990's.

Well, Song of the South has been well and truly buried in the archives, p'rhaps never to be seen again despite it's zippy lead song.

I think you make a great point, to aknowledge and recognise the time and cultural context of an, err, text and take the opportunity to learn appropriately; whether or not it was acceptable at the time.

Would the other 88% be punkinheads or just intolerant?

Considering how innocent the lyrics are (basically about a bunch of boys trying to impress a girl) I can't even believe this is seriously being discussed here.

If the word "Indian" is so utterly offensive, someone should go tell AIM that. The American Indian Movement is the organization that generally polices how American Indigenous Americans are portrayed in the media. They've never called the song into question.

Shortnin' Bread is no pearl of ethnic respect either.

In my 1950's-60 US childhood we sang both of these and had fun.
I wouldn't sing either of them now..... a lot has changed in 50 years.

Who the f*** uses AIM anymore? What is this, 1998?

... I mean, I still do, but there are like two people who still sign in on my friends lists of about a hundred people. Tonight those two people are gettin' a big ol' message saying "YOU INDIAN."

I have to ask - what is it that some people could find offensive about the song?

While I think the song is totally innocent given the time period (and believe context matters a thousand times more than just the words themselves), well...

Imagine I put out a song that went something like this:

*three quick electronic beats*
TEN BIG BLACK GUYS
Group chant: F*CK YEAH WATERMELON F*CK YEAH FRIED CHICKEN
etc. etc. And then I called them "negroids" or something later on, all while speaking positively about them throughout the song. All this coming from a super white d00d who's not the least bit racist, just totally clueless as to why piling on stereotypes about another race into song lyrics might not be a great idea.

... I actually just remembered I had a "character song" (i.e. not from my perspective) that is exactly as I just described sans the over-the-top offensive lyrics. Teh shame ;(

But yeah. Different time, totally innocent song written by a bunch of kids (then or now, really), but still not especially politically correct, to some.

Totally not serious thread became ttly srs :'(

Your example made me laugh because frankly most r'n'b/rap artists do a pretty good job of ridiculing/stereotyping themselves these days without having to rely on whites to do so for them.

 :lol :lol

When it's truly offensive - and I'm legendarily broadminded: being of Roma stock, you have to be - I have no problem with a change, but when it's f***ing with recorded history - say, changing the dog's name in The Dam Busters just to be PC - you'll find me on the barricades heaving Molotov c*cktails at the tree huggers.

Unfortunately the same thing happens to the slavery era, in US history.  People always judge it by our politically correct standards of today.

We can't play it for any Native American friends, because the white man killed so many of them when we stole the country that you never see any of them anymore. 

Come to think of it, that was pretty racist of the white man.

This song isn't. 


I've got to be honest, I'm a white guy, and I don't care what's racist.  I could act like I do, like everybody else acts like they do, but I'd rather just shoot it straight. 

"Unfortunately the same thing happens to the slavery era, in US history.  People always judge it by our politically correct standards of today."

Yeah, because slavery was such a good thing...  ::)

That's funny but again...do American Indians have a problem with the word "Indian"? Yeah, we all know Columbus had a lousy sense of direction hence the name, but I'm thinking of all the American Indian documentaries I watched during the seventies (after Wounded Knee they were always on TV) and I remember American Indians referring to themselves as "indian" not in the pejorative but with ethnic pride.

I have a suspicion that the terms Native American or Indigenous American were created by guilty white people during the last 20 years of crazyville PC nonsense, whereas the actual group being referred to as "indians" had no problem with the name. If I'm wrong, then I'll be glad to hear examples..but again, I doubt the American Indian Movement (AIM) think of themselves as racist jerks or that when Marlon Brando refused to accept his Oscar for the Godfather because he didn't like the way "indians" had been portrayed in the media, Native Americans were at home screaming at the TV going "How dare he! He just cussed us out!".  ;) 

Those I know prefer the term 'Indian' to 'Native American', which, I think, is a guilt trip word and more evidence of white people trying to create an image of what 'Indian' is, while assuaging s sense of guilt for the work of their ancestors - and those still at it today, of course. I don't think the song was intended as racist and I'm with you on the 'more innocent times' feel, but if you were Indian in the early 60s and you and yours had to put up with all sorts of racist crap - the sort that didn't get reported and make the evening news in the way that racism towards Blacks did, I suspect you - and I - might feel differently.  Had it been it's original form using the N word, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It's not the word 'Indian' that's the issue, it's the stereotypical childishly racist imagery that the song throws up.

Jesus fucking Christ, Ron.

It's racist, period. And the sky is blue.

I don't think that making that simple observation should be such a big deal, nor should it lead to any direct judgement about what lies within any given individual's heart.

"Ten Little Indians" - the ditty - is one infinitesimal artifact of a larger societal racism. It's the world we live in and always will - there will never be an Enlightened Utopia led by Captain Picard.

Denying it for what it is, in my opinion, is pointless. Not to care about what's racist and what's not - well, that's a personal choice. Some - nay, MANY - people don't have that luxury.

Well done.

A bunch of (I'm assuming) predominantly Caucasian American and European males determining what is racist, offensive and/or politically correct on a web forum for the whitest rock group of all time is kind of amusing, but also kind of scary !

No kidding. Like I said on page 1: "it comes down to what the dominated culture feels, not the dominant culture." And with some exception, that was followed by a bunch of posts that ignored it.

Ah, DonnyL, you trumped us all. Seriously. I can't argue with the fact that this is utter absurdity.

I certainly read and agreed with that point you made about the dominant/dominated culture, rockandroll. That's partly what I had in mind by my statement that "many people don't have that luxury."

Maybe a mod would like to close the thread, or move to the Sandbox? Just a thought.

Oh, yes, I got your point. It was a great post.  :)

This might also be an opportune time to pay my respects to Mary Tamm, the lovely Romanadvoratrelundar, the elegant companion for Tom Baker's 4th Doctor in season 16 of Doctor Who. She died on July 26, and it's sad to see her go. On screen she sizzled, yet cool. Off-screen, the little I saw, she was graceful, a bit naughty, and erudite at the same time. And she had such a lovely, lovely face.

Seeing Alholio's avatar brought her to mind. I figured I might as well bring it up here, since we were already off-topic. I mean well.

Last night I re-listened to Nicholas Courtney's "Companion Chronicle" for Big Finish called Old Soldiers. The first line, against the sound effects of whisky being poured into a glass, was "here's to absent friends." It really choked me up. The whole play was outstanding, highly, HIGHLY recommended. Mr. Courtney ("The Brig") is now no longer with us either. He had such a gentle persona, from the testimonies of all who worked with him. Just a wonderful man, who enjoyed life, was gracious to others, had painful encounters with darkness and depression, and went out with all due solemnity, good humor, and honor.

On his deathbed, Tom Baker asked him, "Would you say, Nick, that you were a tits-man or an ass-man?" The Brig gathered up strength, heaved his heart a bit, and replied: "Both, Tom. I think I was both."

As much as I'll miss Mary Tamm, I am heartened somewhat to know that she had already wrapped up recording for an entire series of audio plays with Tom Baker, to be released in 2013. The plays will also feature K-9, and I just love that little dog. I think he's boss.

What is constant in this existence we share? What is undeniably, impossible-to-ignore, all-ecompassingly constant?

Death, for one. That might be the only one.

But I'll venture to suggest a few others:
1. The Joy/Pain coin.
2. The Justice/Mercy coin.
3. Choice.

In a K-9 voice:

"Affirmative."

Racism isn't racist by 1962 standards.

Just to clarify my earlier post: I also don't care about any of this bullshit you just rambled on about.  So, in a way, your whole post is kind of like racism. 

Yep, just like racism. More like Catbirdracistwhiteman. Ron's post was racist toward, Catbirdracistwhiteman. More like Racist Ron, Racist Ron.

Signed in a racist manner,
racistrunnerz

Wow.

Aye, Mary Tamm was a memorable - and very attractive (is that sexist?) - companion to the finest Doc to have graced the wee screen. Losing her and Liz Sladen (on whom I might or might not have had a schoolboy crush), both pretty unexpectedly and prematurely, has been a sod.

Don't know really what it's got to do with Ten Wee First Nation People Native North Americans  but I'll raise a glass to them both tonight.  ;)