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Smiley Smile Stuff => Polls => Topic started by: buddhahat on August 02, 2012, 03:22:29 AM



Title: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 02, 2012, 03:22:29 AM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-W_mNmsEbVJI/UBpQW2Tyo0I/AAAAAAAAAec/tuBAbb1SraE/s1600/Today.jpg)

I love SD&SN - it strikes me as the album where they perfected their archetypal sound in the hits Help Me Rhonda and California Girls. There is also something fantastic about that cover!

Let Him Run Wild is one of my favourite BB songs, and Girl Don't Tell Me is wonderful. I wish The Little Girl I Once Knew had been included instead of maybe Bugged At My Old Man or Amusement Parks.

I do think some of Mike's lyrics (including California Girls) are beginning to sound stale at this point and for this reason I will vote for Today, where the lyrics seem much more timeless. There is also the mini Pet Sounds run of songs from side 2 which weighs strongly in Today's favour for me.

So far there have been few surprises with the polls. I think the only unexpected victory for me has been POB over Love You. This could be another tight one, but I suspect Today will clinch it ...


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: MBE on August 02, 2012, 03:53:21 AM
Well both rank among their best. SDSN is very under rated by some, but it's an excellent LP. Today though is one of those albums that stuns you whenever you hear it. Have to go with Today but this was close.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Rocky Raccoon on August 02, 2012, 04:06:07 AM
Ooh, this is a tough one.  Each one has so much going for it.

First off, the "Help Me, Rhonda" on Summer Days is much better than the one on Today.  Summer Days also has "California Girls," arguably one of the most popular songs they ever did, along with Endless Summer classics "Girl Don't Tell Me," "Let Him Run Wild," and "You're So Good to Me" which are the Boys at their best.
Today has some of my favorite Beach Boys songs.  "When I Grow Up," "She Knows Me Too Well," and "Please Let Me Wonder." it really shows Brian's songwriting at its best with beautiful and heartbreaking songs like "Kiss Me Baby." "I'm So Young," and "In the Back of My Mind."  It feels more like an album than Summer Days which seems more like a collection of singles.  Which really isn't a bad thing, that's probably even a compliment, but as an album, it doesn't flow as nicely.  I find it kind of strange that with all the great tracks on that album, they pick "The Girl From New York City" and "Amusement Parks" to open the album when I think both should be complete filler.  Today seems to almost be an unintentional concept album about teenage love and there's just something sublime about it.  Actually, I think the only song on the album that doesn't work is "Help Me Rhonda" which I'm glad was reworked to be the hit song it became.  "Dance, Dance, Dance" feels a little out of place too especially being on the same album as "Do You Wanna Dance?" (which I think fits much better).  And then there's the baffling "Bull Sessions" tacked on at the end.  I actually kind of like it but its existence is a bit puzzling.  Despite these flaws, I still think it's a great album and I'm glad it was recognized by Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums list.  Summer Days is just as essential so it's fitting that they're both on one disc (and I can't imagine listening to Summer Days without "The Little Girl I Once Knew," another one of my all-time favorites) but Today just works better.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: lance on August 02, 2012, 04:49:16 AM
SD&SN better than today. Today great though. but I think SD&SN is where Brian really struck a new sound.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 02, 2012, 04:57:41 AM
SD&SN better than today. Today great though. but I think SD&SN is where Brian really struck a new sound.

Hey man, don't forget to vote! SD&SN needs all the help it can get at the moment.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Disney Boy (1985) on August 02, 2012, 05:16:35 AM
I love Summer Days... My favourite songs on it are probably what some people would rank as their least favourites (the opening two tracks for instance, i especially like The Girl From New York City). But Today is just a better album - more coherent, incredibly well sequenced. Side one is terrific (Dance Dance Dance fits perfectly to my ears and draws the 'pop' side to a very satisfying close), but Side two is exceptional. Arguably the greatest sequence of songs in their entire catalogue. Please let Me Wonder and She Knows Me Too Well in particular are just staggeringly brilliant! As for Bull Sessions... It's a joke, enjoy it! It's Brian saying 'Hey so that was all just kinda heavy huh? But we're still that fun group you love'. Cue Dick Rising etc.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Letsgoawayforawhile on August 02, 2012, 05:45:44 AM
Both amazing, but I went with Today! easily. Side two is one of the most amazing sides on any record ever. An insight of what's to come on Pet Sounds. Perfect.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on August 02, 2012, 06:12:38 AM
Summer Days, without a doubt.

Songs don't have to be introspective and sad  to be good.



Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: rab2591 on August 02, 2012, 06:15:25 AM
Today!

'Do You Wanna Dance' is one of my favorite songs the Beach Boys recorded, side 2 is just tremendous.

I DO prefer SDSN's cover art though.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: shelter on August 02, 2012, 06:34:44 AM
A very easy one. Today is hands down my favorite pre-Pet Sounds album. And honestly, I don't really like Summer Days that much. Girl Don't Tell Me, California Girls and Summer Means New Love are the only songs on that album that I really like...


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on August 02, 2012, 06:41:23 AM
There's a brilliant five song run on SDASN - Girl Don't Tell Me/Help Me, Rhonda/California Girls/Let Him Run Wild/You're So Good To Me. Unfortunately, the rest of the album doesn't even come close to the quality of those tracks. I voted Today!, which I even think would be a better listen if the tracks were sequenced differently - meaning some fast, some slow/introspective on the same side.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Letsgoawayforawhile on August 02, 2012, 06:50:44 AM
There's a brilliant five song run on SDASN - Girl Don't Tell Me/Help Me, Rhonda/California Girls/Let Him Run Wild/You're So Good To Me. Unfortunately, the rest of the album doesn't even come close to the quality of those tracks. I voted Today!, which I even think would be a better listen if the tracks were sequenced differently - meaning some fast, some slow/introspective on the same side.


I love the line between fun and emotion on it. That's definitely part of the charm for me. Like two separate albums in one.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: clinikillz on August 02, 2012, 07:00:18 AM
Today! fo' sho.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: TV Forces on August 02, 2012, 07:01:15 AM
Next to "Pet Sounds," "Today" is about as perfect an album as they made.  I only wish the "Summer Days" "Rhonda" existed at that time, and "Bull Session" was replaced with something like "All Dressed Up For School" or another non LP track.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on August 02, 2012, 07:15:10 AM
Next to "Pet Sounds," "Today" is about as perfect an album as they made.  I only wish the "Summer Days" "Rhonda" existed at that time, and "Bull Session" was replaced with something like "All Dressed Up For School" or another non LP track.

My alternate Today! looks something like this.

Side One: Dance Dance Dance/Good To My Baby/When I Grow Up/Kiss Me Baby/Don't Hurt My Little Sister/She Knows Me Too Well

Side Two:Please Let Me Wonder/Do You Wanna Dance/All Dressed Up For School/I'm So Young/In The Back of My Mind/Guess I'm Dumb


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Disney Boy (1985) on August 02, 2012, 07:28:15 AM
Next to "Pet Sounds," "Today" is about as perfect an album as they made.  I only wish the "Summer Days" "Rhonda" existed at that time, and "Bull Session" was replaced with something like "All Dressed Up For School" or another non LP track.

My alternate Today! looks something like this.

Side One: Dance Dance Dance/Good To My Baby/When I Grow Up/Kiss Me Baby/Don't Hurt My Little Sister/She Knows Me Too Well

Side Two:Please Let Me Wonder/Do You Wanna Dance/All Dressed Up For School/I'm So Young/In The Back of My Mind/Guess I'm Dumb

No offence but that line-up just turns a very well thought out and carefully sequenced album into a mess...


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on August 02, 2012, 07:33:47 AM
Next to "Pet Sounds," "Today" is about as perfect an album as they made.  I only wish the "Summer Days" "Rhonda" existed at that time, and "Bull Session" was replaced with something like "All Dressed Up For School" or another non LP track.

My alternate Today! looks something like this.

Side One: Dance Dance Dance/Good To My Baby/When I Grow Up/Kiss Me Baby/Don't Hurt My Little Sister/She Knows Me Too Well

Side Two:Please Let Me Wonder/Do You Wanna Dance/All Dressed Up For School/I'm So Young/In The Back of My Mind/Guess I'm Dumb

No offence but that line-up just turns a very well thought out and carefully sequenced album into a mess...

It's all good. I just wanted to see if I could do something a little different with it. It's an album full of great songs, and taking the fast and slow songs and mixing them up just makes me like them even more.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Disney Boy (1985) on August 02, 2012, 07:40:43 AM
Next to "Pet Sounds," "Today" is about as perfect an album as they made.  I only wish the "Summer Days" "Rhonda" existed at that time, and "Bull Session" was replaced with something like "All Dressed Up For School" or another non LP track.

My alternate Today! looks something like this.

Side One: Dance Dance Dance/Good To My Baby/When I Grow Up/Kiss Me Baby/Don't Hurt My Little Sister/She Knows Me Too Well

Side Two:Please Let Me Wonder/Do You Wanna Dance/All Dressed Up For School/I'm So Young/In The Back of My Mind/Guess I'm Dumb

No offence but that line-up just turns a very well thought out and carefully sequenced album into a mess...

It's all good. I just wanted to see if I could do something a little different with it. It's an album full of great songs, and taking the fast and slow songs and mixing them up just makes me like them even more.

True, yes. I just personally love how the album is divided into two distinctive sides. It's something i think they should've tried more often (with a few minor alterations and additions Sunflower can be made into a similarly 'themed' album)


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: runnersdialzero on August 02, 2012, 08:03:17 AM
Like asking which side of my wang I want cut off :'( you fucking monsters.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: BB Universe on August 02, 2012, 09:11:13 AM
Two really solid albums, both with many standout and timeless tunes. Summer Days with perhaps 2 of the most popular BB songs in Cal Girls and Jardine's version of HMR plus several other favorites (also fondly recall Brian and his band do a great And Your Dreams Come True in one of his shows this decade). Today perhaps does not include an "all-timer" like Cal Girls but the 1st side is really good all around, rockin with DTWD and DDD plus WIGU, and the 2nd side with PLMW and Kiss Me Baby is a pleasure to listen too.

I went with Today because, to me, from start to finish it is better and gets closer to something like Pet Sounds than any other album they put out. But, you can't go wrong with either one.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 02, 2012, 10:23:13 AM
Today has been my favorite album for as far back as I can remember and that's a long, long time. It's a great listen from beginning to end. Also, one of the only Duophonic LPs that actually doesn't sound too bad.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Mike's Beard on August 02, 2012, 10:49:47 AM
Today! for me. Summer Days is a step forward musically but too often a step back lyrically.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 02, 2012, 12:13:41 PM
Today! for me. Summer Days is a step forward musically but too often a step back lyrically.
You really think that between All Summer Long and Summer Days that they took a step backwards lyrically? We are talking a year here and Summer Days did not really deal with same type subject matter as Today. If you think about it, Today is kind of the odd ball album in terms of subject matter and how it was expressed. The whole album is expressed from a personal perspective, even on some of the fast songs, let alone all of side 2. The band would deal with this on one-off songs like In My Room & Warmth Of The Sun, but never a whole album's worth of songs.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: donald on August 02, 2012, 01:11:07 PM
In this modern day of playlists I find it increasingly difficult to consider albums as seperate entities.   Was it Ringo or George Harrison who said that, in retrospect, Revolver and Rubber Soul could really be considered parts 1 and 2 of the same "album"?

Rarely do I ever listen to an entire album with the exception of certain pieces such as the suite side of Abbey Road, SMiLE, or perhaps something like Tommy.

Sometimes I miss the days of LP's when lifting the needle was necessary to change songs.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on August 02, 2012, 01:14:53 PM
Today! for me. Summer Days is a step forward musically but too often a step back lyrically.
You really think that between All Summer Long and Summer Days that they took a step backwards lyrically? We are talking a year here and Summer Days did not really deal with same type subject matter as Today. If you think about it, Today is kind of the odd ball album in terms of subject matter and how it was expressed. The whole album is expressed from a personal prospective, even on some of the fast songs, let alone all of side 2. The band would deal with this on one-off songs like In My Room & Warmth Of The Sun, but never a whole album's worth of songs.

(IMO) I think he means that Summer Days is a step back lyrically from Today, the album previous, and he's right for the most part. There are no songs about amusement parks, or driving to Salt Lake City, or being bugged at your ol' man, on Today.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 02, 2012, 01:25:11 PM
Today! for me. Summer Days is a step forward musically but too often a step back lyrically.
You really think that between All Summer Long and Summer Days that they took a step backwards lyrically? We are talking a year here and Summer Days did not really deal with same type subject matter as Today. If you think about it, Today is kind of the odd ball album in terms of subject matter and how it was expressed. The whole album is expressed from a personal prospective, even on some of the fast songs, let alone all of side 2. The band would deal with this on one-off songs like In My Room & Warmth Of The Sun, but never a whole album's worth of songs.

(IMO) I think he means that Summer Days is a step back lyrically from Today, the album previous, and he's right for the most part. There are no songs about amusement parks, or driving to Salt Lake City, or being bugged at your ol' man, on Today.
The themes of the albums are completely different, so of course the lyrics are lighter on Summer Days. Except for the two dance songs, Today is a fairly serious album about  teenage angst.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: phirnis on August 02, 2012, 02:14:17 PM
Impossible to decide.

Today is a huge personal favorite, yet in many ways Summer Days may be the ultimate Beach Boys album.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 02, 2012, 02:15:20 PM
Why do folks think that songs about emotional angst are a step "forward" lyrically? And that lyrics about actually having fun are a step "backward"?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Letsgoawayforawhile on August 02, 2012, 02:21:11 PM
Why do folks think that songs about emotional angst are a step "forward" lyrically? And that lyrics about actually having fun are a step "backward"?



Emotion trumps surfing and cars.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 02, 2012, 02:22:46 PM
Today! for me. Summer Days is a step forward musically but too often a step back lyrically.
You really think that between All Summer Long and Summer Days that they took a step backwards lyrically? We are talking a year here and Summer Days did not really deal with same type subject matter as Today. If you think about it, Today is kind of the odd ball album in terms of subject matter and how it was expressed. The whole album is expressed from a personal prospective, even on some of the fast songs, let alone all of side 2. The band would deal with this on one-off songs like In My Room & Warmth Of The Sun, but never a whole album's worth of songs.

(IMO) I think he means that Summer Days is a step back lyrically from Today, the album previous, and he's right for the most part. There are no songs about amusement parks, or driving to Salt Lake City, or being bugged at your ol' man, on Today.
OK, write me some forward thinking lyrics about Salt Lake City if they are so backward. Would singing verses with Mormon Bastion and polygamy move the lyrics forward?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 02, 2012, 02:24:57 PM
Why do folks think that songs about emotional angst are a step "forward" lyrically? And that lyrics about actually having fun are a step "backward"?



Emotion trumps surfing and cars.

I show plenty of emotion while in the Tunnel Of Love. ;) There are no surfing or car songs on Summer Days.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 02, 2012, 02:26:34 PM
Why do folks think that songs about emotional angst are a step "forward" lyrically? And that lyrics about actually having fun are a step "backward"?



Emotion trumps surfing and cars.


Maybe if you live in your mom's basement, never had a date and wish you could sing like a girl, ala 80% of The Beach Boys' male audience. A band called The Beach Boys are mostly going to be a fun in the sun-themed group. And that has, is, and will always be just as it should. There needs to be ONE classic band that isn't a pack of endless "artistic" moan. All people wanna do is make The Beach Boys into another Beatles they are less tired of.
And, for anyone who has actually experienced them, surfing and cars carry PLENTY of emotion and life experience. They can carry as much metaphor as any Van Dyke Parks clever epistle.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on August 02, 2012, 02:38:35 PM
Why do folks think that songs about emotional angst are a step "forward" lyrically? And that lyrics about actually having fun are a step "backward"?



Emotion trumps surfing and cars.


Maybe if you live in your mom's basement, never had a date and wish you could sing like a girl, ala 80% of The Beach Boys' male audience. A band called The Beach Boys are mostly going to be a fun in the sun-themed group. And that has, is, and will always be just as it should. There needs to be ONE classic band that isn't a pack of endless "artistic" moan. All people wanna do is make The Beach Boys into another Beatles they are less tired of.
And, for anyone who has actually experienced them, surfing and cars carry PLENTY of emotion and life experience. They can carry as much metaphor as any Van Dyke Parks clever epistle.

All IMO....

I don't mean that songs with "fun" lyrics" aren't as valid with ones with emotion. Earlier in this thread, I listed California Girls as one of the killers on this album. I really do love songs like "Do It Again", "It's Ok", "I Get Around", "Little Honda"......it's just most of the "fun" songs on the album at hand (Summer Days) don't do it for me at all. Girl From New York City is ok but nothing spectacular, Amusement Parks IS regressive lyrically - not because they aren't talking about love, but because I feel The Beach Boys (and Brian) were better than singing about rolley-coasters. I find Salt Lake City to be really hokey and lyrically trite ("and the way the kids talk so cool is an out of sight thing"). I'm Bugged At My Old Man...well, I can see how people can relate to the Brian/Murry history, but to anyone else it's a throwaway, a put-on to fill space. I wouldn't dare knock anyone for liking those tracks, it's just that I think they have done wildly better songs in the same genre.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: runnersdialzero on August 02, 2012, 02:40:44 PM
LET'S TAKE YOUR CAR AND MESS AROUND AT THE PARK ALL DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 02, 2012, 02:45:27 PM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that. That's cool and all that you don't like those SDSN songs for your own reasons, but I gotta say, those exact same reasons are why I love those songs, and that album. That one particular line from Salt Lake City you quoted is one of my favorites in their entire canon. I'm Bugged At My Ol' Man is actually very relatable for a lot of people, not just those who know the history. Amusement Parks is one of the most intensely pictorial musical pieces in BW's career, as much so as anything off Smile. You hear that, and you are THERE, you smell the popcorn, you feel seasick from a ride, you feel the girl/guy by your side. And that is utter, utter genius, even if Pet Sounds had never happened.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on August 02, 2012, 02:58:48 PM
Why do folks think that songs about emotional angst are a step "forward" lyrically? And that lyrics about actually having fun are a step "backward"?

To answer your question, I think Beach Boys fans are tired, defensive, whatever, about defending their love of The Beach Boys - because of the lightweight, faddish (is that a word?), outdated 1960's lyrics and associations.

I agree with you, Ian, and I'm not agreeing with that line of thinking, even though I've been there. Many times. I'm just pointing out one reason why a BB fan would welcome "emotional" themed music over surf & turf. And, again, that is just one reason. I'm sure some fans legitimately do get into the emotional stuff more. Brian Wilson is one of them. But, it sometimes ain't easy being a BB fan.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on August 02, 2012, 03:03:02 PM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that. That's cool and all that you don't like those SDSN songs for your own reasons, but I gotta say, those exact same reasons are why I love those songs, and that album. That one particular line from Salt Lake City you quoted is one of my favorites in their entire canon. I'm Bugged At My Ol' Man is actually very relatable for a lot of people, not just those who know the history. Amusement Parks is one of the most intensely pictorial musical pieces in BW's career, as much so as anything off Smile. You hear that, and you are THERE, you smell the popcorn, you feel seasick from a ride, you feel the girl/guy by your side. And that is utter, utter genius, even if Pet Sounds had never happened.

I can respect that.
Helter Skelter isn't even close to one of my favorite Beatles tracks, either.  :)


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Letsgoawayforawhile on August 02, 2012, 04:12:57 PM
To each his own.
Also, the emotion Brian puts out is greater than all 4 of the Beatles combined. To me at least.

And, I love the fun stuff too, considering that's probably what turned most of us onto the Boys in the first place. For me, it just means less. No need to grumble over an opinion.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on August 02, 2012, 10:27:45 PM
Musically, I will say SDSN all the way! That is when the kick ass bass lines started. Lyrically, it is week in several songs, like California Girls. Today has some of his first great arrangements with some solid lyric work by the Lovester. But musically, SDSN is a step ahead. SDSN has the feeling and topics of All Summer Long LP, but the music is closer to Pet Sounds then Today IMO.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Disney Boy (1985) on August 02, 2012, 11:44:54 PM
Musically, I will say SDSN all the way! That is when the kick ass bass lines started. Lyrically, it is week in several songs, like California Girls. Today has some of his first great arrangements with some solid lyric work by the Lovester. But musically, SDSN is a step ahead. SDSN has the feeling and topics of All Summer Long LP, but the music is closer to Pet Sounds then Today IMO.

Except for the California Girls intro, i'd say nothing on SDSN is as close musically to Pet Sounds than Kiss Me Baby or She Knows Me Too Well.

Incidentally, in '1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die' the reviewer says of Today: 'It's very easy to argue that it's superior to Pet Sounds... it has none of that album's self pity'. He/she then sites Please Let Me Wonder and Kiss Me Baby as being on a par with God Only Knows.
(For the record, the BB-related albums in the book are: Today!, Pet Sounds, Surf's Up, Pacific Ocean Blue, Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE. (I imagine the SMiLE Sessions will be included in any updated editions).


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 03:06:08 AM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that.

I think you're being deliberately disingenuous here, but I'll bite anyway. Helter Skelter was culturally relevant because the lyrics functioned as a metaphor (or at least Manson thought so) for political/cultural/psychological turbulence. Amusement Parks USA was just a lazy re-hash of County Fair and was literally a step backwards lyrically.

You really think that between All Summer Long and Summer Days that they took a step backwards lyrically? We are talking a year here and Summer Days did not really deal with same type subject matter as Today. If you think about it, Today is kind of the odd ball album in terms of subject matter and how it was expressed. The whole album is expressed from a personal perspective, even on some of the fast songs, let alone all of side 2. The band would deal with this on one-off songs like In My Room & Warmth Of The Sun, but never a whole album's worth of songs.

In 1964, the Californian lifestyle so perfectly embodied in ASL was where it was at. Whether SD&SN's lyrical themes were out of step a mere year later is a difficult question and one I'm probably not qualified to answer. I do think It's a case of diminishing returns with songs that deal specifically with the Californian experience at this point, especially in light of contemporaneous releases such as Bringing It All Back Home, and the Like A Rolling Stone single the same month as SD&SN, but then Dylan was arguably ahead of everyone at this point.

The Beach Boys couldn't compete as cultural or political commentators from 65 onwards, but in exploring emotional depth they were second to none. This is why albums such as Pet Sounds and Today where emotional songs predominate have stood the test of time far better than the surf & turf albums.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 03, 2012, 03:24:35 AM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that.

I think you're being deliberately disingenuous here, but I'll bite anyway. Helter Skelter was culturally relevant because the lyrics functioned as a metaphor (or at least Manson thought so) for political/cultural/psychological turbulence. Amusement Parks USA was just a lazy re-hash of County Fair and was literally a step backwards lyrically.

You really think that between All Summer Long and Summer Days that they took a step backwards lyrically? We are talking a year here and Summer Days did not really deal with same type subject matter as Today. If you think about it, Today is kind of the odd ball album in terms of subject matter and how it was expressed. The whole album is expressed from a personal perspective, even on some of the fast songs, let alone all of side 2. The band would deal with this on one-off songs like In My Room & Warmth Of The Sun, but never a whole album's worth of songs.

In 1964, the Californian lifestyle so perfectly embodied in ASL was where it was at. Whether SD&SN's lyrical themes were out of step a mere year later is a difficult question and one I'm probably not qualified to answer. I do think It's a case of diminishing returns with songs that deal specifically with the Californian experience at this point, especially in light of contemporaneous releases such as Bringing It All Back Home, and the Like A Rolling Stone single the same month as SD&SN, but then Dylan was arguably ahead of everyone at this point.

The Beach Boys couldn't compete as cultural or political commentators from 65 onwards, but in exploring emotional depth they were second to none. This is why albums such as Pet Sounds and Today where emotional songs predominate have stood the test of time far better than the surf & turf albums.
While I understand where you are coming from, I think a lot more of their music has stood the test of time. The sales of their compilation albums like Sounds of Summer has probably out sold Pet Sounds and Today combined. Most people just don't look at their songs and albums the way we do.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 04:00:26 AM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that.

I think you're being deliberately disingenuous here, but I'll bite anyway. Helter Skelter was culturally relevant because the lyrics functioned as a metaphor (or at least Manson thought so) for political/cultural/psychological turbulence. Amusement Parks USA was just a lazy re-hash of County Fair and was literally a step backwards lyrically.

You really think that between All Summer Long and Summer Days that they took a step backwards lyrically? We are talking a year here and Summer Days did not really deal with same type subject matter as Today. If you think about it, Today is kind of the odd ball album in terms of subject matter and how it was expressed. The whole album is expressed from a personal perspective, even on some of the fast songs, let alone all of side 2. The band would deal with this on one-off songs like In My Room & Warmth Of The Sun, but never a whole album's worth of songs.

In 1964, the Californian lifestyle so perfectly embodied in ASL was where it was at. Whether SD&SN's lyrical themes were out of step a mere year later is a difficult question and one I'm probably not qualified to answer. I do think It's a case of diminishing returns with songs that deal specifically with the Californian experience at this point, especially in light of contemporaneous releases such as Bringing It All Back Home, and the Like A Rolling Stone single the same month as SD&SN, but then Dylan was arguably ahead of everyone at this point.

The Beach Boys couldn't compete as cultural or political commentators from 65 onwards, but in exploring emotional depth they were second to none. This is why albums such as Pet Sounds and Today where emotional songs predominate have stood the test of time far better than the surf & turf albums.
While I understand where you are coming from, I think a lot more of their music has stood the test of time. The sales of their compilation albums like Sounds of Summer has probably out sold Pet Sounds and Today combined. Most people just don't look at their songs and albums the way we do.

Fair point, and in retrospect those small time spans of a year or so do not matter - it is all nostalgia and to most people there is little difference between Surfin USA and Do It Again. But personally I find the power of Mike's lyrics diminish post 64, and I'd argue that as international fascination with the Californian myth subsided, so did the relevance, vitality and truth of Mike's lyrics. Songs such as Salt Lake City and Amusement Parks USA are starting to sound stale for this very reason. It's no accident that when they revisit surf subject matter on Do It Again, it's no longer a 1st hand account of how great the sport is, but a rose tinted recollection. You cannot mine the same creative seam indefinitely without risk of stagnation (especially when your subject matter is so time and location specific) and certain songs on SD&SN are stretching the formula too far, hence Brian's decision to hire Asher for the next one.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on August 03, 2012, 05:42:03 AM
Quote
I'd argue that as international fascination with the Californian myth subsided, so did the relevance, vitality and truth of Mike's  lyrics. Songs such as Salt Lake City and Amusement Parks USA are starting to sound stale for this very reason.

I guess Murry was right to sell the catalog for $700,000. It's never going to amount to anything. Just a passing fad.

I thought I was talking to fellow Beach Boy fans. You guys seem to resent everything the band stood for. I mean really stood for, not just the 2-year span when Brian was considered "hip".

Quote
Amusement Parks USA was just a lazy re-hash of County Fair

That's like calling "Strawberry Fields" a lazy rehash of "There's A Place".

Quote
Lyrically, it is week in several songs, like California Girls

Are you people out of your fucking minds?




Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 03, 2012, 05:51:57 AM
Quote
I'd argue that as international fascination with the Californian myth subsided, so did the relevance, vitality and truth of Mike's  lyrics. Songs such as Salt Lake City and Amusement Parks USA are starting to sound stale for this very reason.

I guess Murry was right to sell the catalog for $700,000. It's never going to amount to anything. Just a passing fad.

I thought I was talking to fellow Beach Boy fans. You guys seem to resent everything the band stood for. I mean really stood for, not just the 2-year span when Brian was considered "hip".

Quote
Amusement Parks USA was just a lazy re-hash of County Fair

That's like calling "Strawberry Fields" a lazy rehash of "There's A Place".





I figured out a long time ago, this place is a home to the Pet Sounds/Smile only fans. I will even go out on a limb and say most of those fans are those that found the band from 1990 forward. Most fans who found the band in the 60s and 70s seem to have a better appreciation of all of their music.
Remember now, I said most, not all. ;)


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 06:19:29 AM
Quote
I'd argue that as international fascination with the Californian myth subsided, so did the relevance, vitality and truth of Mike's  lyrics. Songs such as Salt Lake City and Amusement Parks USA are starting to sound stale for this very reason.

I guess Murry was right to sell the catalog for $700,000. It's never going to amount to anything. Just a passing fad.

I thought I was talking to fellow Beach Boy fans. You guys seem to resent everything the band stood for. I mean really stood for, not just the 2-year span when Brian was considered "hip".

Look I prefer one album to another and I'm stating my reasons for that. I'm not saying SD&SN is a piece of sh*t - far from it. FWIW I actually enjoy Amusement Parks - it's a fun song. But conceptually and lyrically it's a rehash and weakens the album for me. There are more timeless songs on Today - When I Grow Up, Kiss Me Baby, Please Let Me Wonder etc. - and for better or worse timelessness, cultural relevance, albums functioning as accurate historical snapshots of their time etc are things I value. If that makes me sound like a snob, pretentious, narrow minded or apparently not worthy of being a Beach Boys fan, so be it. I voted for MIU over LA y'know & Love You over POB, but in this instance the more artistically credible album takes the cake.  :)





Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on August 03, 2012, 06:27:22 AM

I voted for MIU over LA & Love You over POB



Then you're OK with me!  :drunks


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 06:27:29 AM

I figured out a long time ago, this place is a home to the Pet Sounds/Smile only fans.

That's rubbish. I doubt there's more than a handful of people here, if anyone, who only enjoy that two year period.


I will even go out on a limb and say most of those fans are those that found the band from 1990 forward. Most fans who found the band in the 60s and 70s seem to have a better appreciation of all of their music.

Well 1986 Made In USA (an abundance of hits, I might point out) for me, so you were close.

Does better appreciation = reluctance to criticise any of Mike's lyrics for you? C'mon this is nonsense. I thought this was a discussion board. Surely debate over key albums is what makes this place interesting?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 06:27:56 AM

I voted for MIU over LA & Love You over POB



Then you're OK with me!  :drunks

Cool  ;D


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on August 03, 2012, 06:49:37 AM
Quote
I'd argue that as international fascination with the Californian myth subsided, so did the relevance, vitality and truth of Mike's  lyrics. Songs such as Salt Lake City and Amusement Parks USA are starting to sound stale for this very reason.

I guess Murry was right to sell the catalog for $700,000. It's never going to amount to anything. Just a passing fad.

I thought I was talking to fellow Beach Boy fans. You guys seem to resent everything the band stood for. I mean really stood for, not just the 2-year span when Brian was considered "hip".

Quote
Amusement Parks USA was just a lazy re-hash of County Fair

That's like calling "Strawberry Fields" a lazy rehash of "There's A Place".

Quote
Lyrically, it is week in several songs, like California Girls

Are you people out of your f***ing minds?




Your last quote is mine. And yes. This song is ying/yang to me. While the music is very progressive and creative, the lyrics are formulaic and commercial. Personally, I think its a nice mix.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Compost on August 03, 2012, 06:54:18 AM
I will even go out on a limb and say most of those fans are those that found the band from 1990 forward.
Are people responsible for their year of birth?  What a silly notion.  I began this obsession in 1981 when I was 7 and the album was...Endless Summer.

Anyway, I picked SD (& SN) over Today!.  Today! is better but the latter is more of an energetic all-rounder for me and I can play it any time.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 07:24:16 AM
Quote
I'd argue that as international fascination with the Californian myth subsided, so did the relevance, vitality and truth of Mike's  lyrics. Songs such as Salt Lake City and Amusement Parks USA are starting to sound stale for this very reason.

I guess Murry was right to sell the catalog for $700,000. It's never going to amount to anything. Just a passing fad.

I thought I was talking to fellow Beach Boy fans. You guys seem to resent everything the band stood for. I mean really stood for, not just the 2-year span when Brian was considered "hip".

Quote
Amusement Parks USA was just a lazy re-hash of County Fair

That's like calling "Strawberry Fields" a lazy rehash of "There's A Place".

Quote
Lyrically, it is week in several songs, like California Girls

Are you people out of your f***ing minds?





Yeah, it is frustrating, isn't it?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 07:51:51 AM
Yeah, it is frustrating, isn't it?

What, that people here don't just blindly agree with your whacked out opinions? Fella, you have your own board for that.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 07:57:19 AM
Yeah, it is frustrating, isn't it?

What, that people here don't just blindly agree with your whacked out opinions? Fella, you have your own board for that.

Listen, you clueless teabag, you are what I wipe off the bottom of my shoe after I walk through my lawn. Your opinions are square and laughable, and have been cribbed off others. Me and others laughed at you when you were on The Smile Shop, we were just too nice to tell you to your face. I know more about anything to do with rock and roll than you ever will, you Beatles suckoff. Go ruin their fanbase, please, give everyone else a rest. Or, as Leonard Cohen said, "How about trying a stainless steel razorblade?".


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 03, 2012, 08:03:28 AM

I figured out a long time ago, this place is a home to the Pet Sounds/Smile only fans.

That's rubbish. I doubt there's more than a handful of people here, if anyone, who only enjoy that two year period.


I will even go out on a limb and say most of those fans are those that found the band from 1990 forward. Most fans who found the band in the 60s and 70s seem to have a better appreciation of all of their music.

Well 1986 Made In USA (an abundance of hits, I might point out) for me, so you were close.

Does better appreciation = reluctance to criticise any of Mike's lyrics for you? C'mon this is nonsense. I thought this was a discussion board. Surely debate over key albums is what makes this place interesting?
Just an observation of the threads that I peruse. Nice to know that is nonsense. I would hate to be on an anti Beach Boys board. ;)


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Compost on August 03, 2012, 08:05:51 AM
Man, this is like squabbling over the correct colour of feces.  As long as it feels good and your rectum isn't bleeding, all is well.  Right?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 03, 2012, 08:09:42 AM
People start these type of threads, but then get pissed or defensive if you post different than the norm. It happens in almost every "versus" thread.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 08:10:19 AM
Yeah, it is frustrating, isn't it?

What, that people here don't just blindly agree with your whacked out opinions? Fella, you have your own board for that.

Listen, you clueless teabag, you are what I wipe off the bottom of my shoe after I walk through my lawn. Your opinions are square and laughable, and have been cribbed off others. Me and others laughed at you when you were on The Smile Shop, we were just too nice to tell you to your face.

Are you 6 years old?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 08:13:04 AM
your rectum isn't bleeding, all is well.  Right?

Well, mine isn't! "buddhahat", his might be, from what I've heard, anyway.
My opinion was simply that the Summer Days album, in its fullness, is as sure an example of Brian Wilson's genius as any other great Beach Boys album. And  I personally feel that a band named The Beach Boys have had a career that has mostly reflected positive, active lyrical concerns, and that is great, as the part of their catalogue that is more "emotion based" is as well. And I agreed with the strongly voiced thoughts of my friend Bubba Ho-Tep.
If that is "whacked out", then this is The Twilight Zone of Beach Boys boards.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 08:14:27 AM
People start these type of threads, but then get pissed or defensive if you post different than the norm. It happens in almost every "versus" thread.

Hey I have no problem with opinions different than my own, but defend my right to express my preference for Today without that making me some sort of narrow-minded johnny come lately of BB fandom!


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 08:15:36 AM
Yeah, it is frustrating, isn't it?

What, that people here don't just blindly agree with your whacked out opinions? Fella, you have your own board for that.

Listen, you clueless teabag, you are what I wipe off the bottom of my shoe after I walk through my lawn. Your opinions are square and laughable, and have been cribbed off others. Me and others laughed at you when you were on The Smile Shop, we were just too nice to tell you to your face.

Are you 6 years old?

I'm telling you the truth. You think you can say what you said, and not get it back threefold, you little poncy reject? Why didn't you speak to Bubba Ho-Tep that way? All I was doing was agreeing with him. Are his opinions "whacked out"? Just say it, I dare you.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 08:16:50 AM
Yeah, it is frustrating, isn't it?

What, that people here don't just blindly agree with your whacked out opinions? Fella, you have your own board for that.

Listen, you clueless teabag, you are what I wipe off the bottom of my shoe after I walk through my lawn. Your opinions are square and laughable, and have been cribbed off others. Me and others laughed at you when you were on The Smile Shop, we were just too nice to tell you to your face.

Are you 6 years old?

I'm telling you the truth. You think you can say what you said, and not get it back threefold, you little poncy reject? Why didn't you speak to Bubba Ho-Tep that way?

I like Bubba Ho Tep.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Compost on August 03, 2012, 08:18:32 AM
I've taken two dumps today.  The first was like nautical rope to which an anchor was affixed.  The second was more like a chutney.  I liken Today! to the former as it was more mature and cohesive and satisfying over the long haul.  The latter reminded me of SD (&SN):  it had an immediate resonance and spontaneity.  Both were equally satisfying in their own particular way.

This post mirrors the quality of the bickering.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Letsgoawayforawhile on August 03, 2012, 08:20:59 AM
I've taken two dumps today.  The first was like nautical rope to which an anchor was affixed.  The second was more like a chutney.  I liken Today! to the former as it was more mature and cohesive and satisfying over the long haul.  The latter reminded me of SD (&SN):  it had an immediate resonance and spontaneity.  Both were equally satisfying in their own particular way.

This post mirrors the quality of the bickering.


Yeah, I just pooped out normal poop, but I feel quite relieved now.

Let's just talk about poop until the arguments stop.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 08:24:11 AM
Yeah, it is frustrating, isn't it?

What, that people here don't just blindly agree with your whacked out opinions? Fella, you have your own board for that.

Listen, you clueless teabag, you are what I wipe off the bottom of my shoe after I walk through my lawn. Your opinions are square and laughable, and have been cribbed off others. Me and others laughed at you when you were on The Smile Shop, we were just too nice to tell you to your face.

Are you 6 years old?

I'm telling you the truth. You think you can say what you said, and not get it back threefold, you little poncy reject? Why didn't you speak to Bubba Ho-Tep that way?

I like Bubba Ho Tep.

Well, all I did was agree with what he said, you simp.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Compost on August 03, 2012, 08:24:34 AM
I've taken two dumps today.  The first was like nautical rope to which an anchor was affixed.  The second was more like a chutney.  I liken Today! to the former as it was more mature and cohesive and satisfying over the long haul.  The latter reminded me of SD (&SN):  it had an immediate resonance and spontaneity.  Both were equally satisfying in their own particular way.

This post mirrors the quality of the bickering.


Yeah, I just pooped out normal poop, but I feel quite relieved now.

Let's just talk about poop until the arguments stop.
But what is "normal poop"?  We'll need to establish some guidelines for this conversation to progress.  Some poops are like the Second Coming of Christ while others are barely footnotes, yet both are essential to survival.  


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on August 03, 2012, 08:29:41 AM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that.

Haha - well, I really like Amusement Parks USA and was, in fact, defending it here a few weeks ago but it's amusing that you make a comparison to Helter Skelter. I mean the lyrics to that aren't:

There's a great big slide just a few miles away
All the kids love to go when they're ready to play
They're going down (helter skelter helter helter skelter)
They're going down (helter skellter helter helter skelter)
Helter skelter's gonna bring you to the ground


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 03, 2012, 08:30:11 AM
People start these type of threads, but then get pissed or defensive if you post different than the norm. It happens in almost every "versus" thread.

Hey I have no problem with opinions different than my own, but defend my right to express my preference for Today without that making me some sort of narrow-minded johnny come lately of BB fandom!

You called my observation rubbish and nonsense.  I have to respond to that stuff.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 08:34:21 AM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that.

Haha - well, I really like Amusement Parks USA and was, in fact, defending it here a few weeks ago but it's amusing that you make a comparison to Helter Skelter. I mean the lyrics to that aren't:

There's a great big slide just a few miles away
All the kids love to go when they're ready to play
They're going down (helter skelter helter helter skelter)
They're going down (helter skellter helter helter skelter)
Helter skelter's gonna bring you to the ground

Those are better lyrics, actually. Excellent job.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on August 03, 2012, 08:36:11 AM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that.

Haha - well, I really like Amusement Parks USA and was, in fact, defending it here a few weeks ago but it's amusing that you make a comparison to Helter Skelter. I mean the lyrics to that aren't:

There's a great big slide just a few miles away
All the kids love to go when they're ready to play
They're going down (helter skelter helter helter skelter)
They're going down (helter skellter helter helter skelter)
Helter skelter's gonna bring you to the ground

Those are better lyrics, actually. Excellent job.

Well, they may have prevented mass murder, so that's something.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 08:36:38 AM
People start these type of threads, but then get pissed or defensive if you post different than the norm. It happens in almost every "versus" thread.

Hey I have no problem with opinions different than my own, but defend my right to express my preference for Today without that making me some sort of narrow-minded johnny come lately of BB fandom!

You called my observation rubbish and nonsense.  I have to respond to that stuff.

The following observations of yours struck me as nonsense:


I figured out a long time ago, this place is a home to the Pet Sounds/Smile only fans. I will even go out on a limb and say most of those fans are those that found the band from 1990 forward. Most fans who found the band in the 60s and 70s seem to have a better appreciation of all of their music.
Remember now, I said most, not all. ;)

Maybe I should have responded more sensitively but I didn't mean to cause offense.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Letsgoawayforawhile on August 03, 2012, 08:45:51 AM
I've taken two dumps today.  The first was like nautical rope to which an anchor was affixed.  The second was more like a chutney.  I liken Today! to the former as it was more mature and cohesive and satisfying over the long haul.  The latter reminded me of SD (&SN):  it had an immediate resonance and spontaneity.  Both were equally satisfying in their own particular way.

This post mirrors the quality of the bickering.


Yeah, I just pooped out normal poop, but I feel quite relieved now.

Let's just talk about poop until the arguments stop.
But what is "normal poop"?  We'll need to establish some guidelines for this conversation to progress.  Some poops are like the Second Coming of Christ while others are barely footnotes, yet both are essential to survival.  



Just your run of the mill brown.
It was pretty disappointing, but I'll try harder next time. Maybe it will make me proud.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on August 03, 2012, 09:00:29 AM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that.

Haha - well, I really like Amusement Parks USA and was, in fact, defending it here a few weeks ago but it's amusing that you make a comparison to Helter Skelter. I mean the lyrics to that aren't:

There's a great big slide just a few miles away
All the kids love to go when they're ready to play
They're going down (helter skelter helter helter skelter)
They're going down (helter skellter helter helter skelter)
Helter skelter's gonna bring you to the ground

But they aren't much better than that.

On paper, Helter Skelterís lyrics suck. McCartney clearly pulled them out of his ass over a three-drink lunch. Any social statement hidden within was applied to the song later by imaginative hippies, mass murderers and McCartney revisionists who want to make him look as socially conscious as Lennon (see also: Blackbird). I could do the same thing with Amusement Parks USA if you give me half an hour to think about it (the song is really about the Military-Industrial Complex and the automobile industry destroying a way of American life).

I don't care if you like Today more, but I have to clear my throat when I hear the old "step backward" song and dance bullsh*t that people probably picked up from David Leaf liner notes or something. It's hogwash. There is clear advancement. It's a sophisticated album. And it contains their two biggest songs. If the lyrics to California Girls are so bad then why does every person on the planet know them by heart? It's like mocking the Star Spangled Banner.

The Today/Summer Days & Pet Sounds/Smile musical pendulum is reflective of the artist's (Brian Wilson) bipolar disorder.  


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 09:18:24 AM

I don't care if you like Today more, but I have to clear my throat when I hear the old "step backward" song and dance bullsh*t that people probably picked up from David Leaf liner notes or something. It's hogwash. There is clear advancement. It's a sophisticated album. And it contains their two biggest songs. If the lyrics to California Girls are so bad then why does every person on the planet know them by heart? It's like mocking the Star Spangled Banner.

The Today/Summer Days & Pet Sounds/Smile musical pendulum is reflective of the artist's (Brian Wilson) bipolar disorder.  

Arnie Geller say "GOOD!".


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: MarcellaHasDirtyFeet on August 03, 2012, 09:23:50 AM
I ate a lot of chicken wings last night, and I do believe my rectum is bleeding. I don't know if it is from the wings or repeated viewing of this thread, though.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on August 03, 2012, 09:25:26 AM
On paper, Helter Skelterís lyrics suck. McCartney clearly pulled them out of his ass over a three-drink lunch. Any social statement hidden within was applied to the song later by imaginative hippies, mass murderers and McCartney revisionists who want to make him look as socially conscious as Lennon (see also: Blackbird). I could do the same thing with Amusement Parks USA if you give me half an hour to think about it (the song is really about the Military-Industrial Complex and the automobile industry destroying a way of American life).

Well, lyrics don't have to be "socially conscious" in order to be complex. But I think if one is going to take lyricism seriously then step one would be acknowledging that lyrics are not the same as speaking in a conversation - that the form itself demands a kind of abstract way of thinking. And from my point of view, a certain degree of abstraction help me become more involved with the lyrics because it forces me to use my imagination and therefore I engage with the work on a whole other level. It also means that as a listener, we become privy to a world of experience that we don't typically engage with in our everyday life. To me, this is why McCartney's lyrics, whatever condition they were written in, are more interesting than Amusement Parks USA, which doesn't leave much room for listener engagement or imagination. But that doesn't necessarily make the song itself better.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Mike's Beard on August 03, 2012, 09:51:28 AM
I've just came home from work to discover I opened a BIG can of worms this morning with my 'backwards step lyrically' remark. I still stand by it in that much of Summer Days! music deserved better lyrics than what they got.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 10:03:09 AM
I've just came home from work to discover I opened a BIG can of worms this morning with my 'backwards step lyrically' remark. I still stand by it in that much of Summer Days! music deserved better lyrics than what they got.

Bob Dylan, Wordsworth and Jesus would have had to collaborate on them, then.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 10:19:32 AM
Ego, The Beatles wrote about a fairground slide, and no one seems to mind that.

Haha - well, I really like Amusement Parks USA and was, in fact, defending it here a few weeks ago but it's amusing that you make a comparison to Helter Skelter. I mean the lyrics to that aren't:

There's a great big slide just a few miles away
All the kids love to go when they're ready to play
They're going down (helter skelter helter helter skelter)
They're going down (helter skellter helter helter skelter)
Helter skelter's gonna bring you to the ground

But they aren't much better than that.

On paper, Helter Skelterís lyrics suck. McCartney clearly pulled them out of his ass over a three-drink lunch. Any social statement hidden within was applied to the song later by imaginative hippies, mass murderers and McCartney revisionists who want to make him look as socially conscious as Lennon (see also: Blackbird). I could do the same thing with Amusement Parks USA if you give me half an hour to think about it (the song is really about the Military-Industrial Complex and the automobile industry destroying a way of American life).

I don't care if you like Today more, but I have to clear my throat when I hear the old "step backward" song and dance bullsh*t that people probably picked up from David Leaf liner notes or something. It's hogwash. There is clear advancement. It's a sophisticated album. And it contains their two biggest songs. If the lyrics to California Girls are so bad then why does every person on the planet know them by heart? It's like mocking the Star Spangled Banner.

The Today/Summer Days & Pet Sounds/Smile musical pendulum is reflective of the artist's (Brian Wilson) bipolar disorder.  

Well comparing Helter Skelter/Amusement Parks based on the shared subject matter is a red herring anyway and frankly absurd - We'd do well to move beyond that. But to suggest Helter Skelter is just a song about a fairground ride is ridiculous. Even if McCartney wrote the lyrics that way, by the time they lay down the track there's something else going on.

I accept that SDSN is as much a Brian album as Today or Pet Sounds. Musically of course it's more sophisticated than Today - I don't think anyone's denying that. But lyrically it falls flat in places and compared to other albums released by major artists that year it's out of step. If Brian had kept Mike as a lyricist for the following 2 albums (Party excepted) we'd have got more of the same and the BBS would be held in far lower critical regard today. Before I get piled on, I like Mike's surf/sun/fun lyrics, but they were growing tired by 65. That's my main point here.



Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on August 03, 2012, 10:27:56 AM
Quote
But to suggest Helter Skelter is just a song about a fairground ride is ridiculous. Even if McCartney wrote the lyrics that way, by the time they lay down the track there's something else going on.

Quote
When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide
Where I stop and I turn and then I go for a ride
'Til I get to the bottom and I see you again, yeh, yeh yeh

Do you, don't you want me to love you
I'm coming down fast, but I'm miles above you
Tell me, tell me tell me, c'mon tell me the answer
Well you may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.

Now Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, yeah ...

a-Will you, won't you want me to make you
I'm coming down fast, but don't let me break you
Tell me, tell me, tell me the answer
You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.

Look out!
Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, oooh...
Look out, 'cause here she come ...

When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide
And I stop and I turn and then I go for a ride
And I get to the bottom and I see you again, yeh, yeh yeh

Well do you, don't you want me to make you
I'm coming down fast, but don't let me break you
Tell me, tell me, tell me your answer
You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer

Look out!
helter skelter, helter skelter, helter skelter

Look out! Helter Skelter ... she coming down fast
yes she is
yes she is
coming down fast


Am I missing something? Where does this reveal deep meaning? C'mon...McCartney was riffing on the guitar and was singing some scat words and this is what came out. You probably think "Mumbo" is McCartney's "Desolation Row" (then again, it very well might be).


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on August 03, 2012, 10:31:43 AM

Well comparing Helter Skelter/Amusement Parks based on the shared subject matter is a red herring anyway and frankly absurd - We'd do well to move beyond that.

Maybe "Being for the Benefit Mr. Kite' is a better option? Oh, but Lennon stole those off a poster. Nevermind.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 10:38:50 AM

Well comparing Helter Skelter/Amusement Parks based on the shared subject matter is a red herring anyway and frankly absurd - We'd do well to move beyond that. But to suggest Helter Skelter is just a song about a fairground ride is ridiculous. Even if McCartney wrote the lyrics that way, by the time they lay down the track there's something else going on.

To suggest Amusement Parks and Salt Lake City are just songs about their lyrical subject matter was the absurdity that prompted the absurdity you are discussing. By the time the tracks for Parks and SLC were recorded, there was REALLY something else going on, something well beyond The Beatles and George Martin's musical reach. I mean, who the hell cares about the lyrics to any Stones record? Do they get judged for the nonsensical lyrics Jagger admits to writing? No, because the RECORD is the thing. Same with The Beach Boys. Same with Phil Spector. Same with the Ramones.
I love the lyrics to Pet Sounds and Smile as much as anyone, but they are the mere cherry on top of the cake, a bonus. Even Van Dyke Parks thinks that. Brian Wilson's music is the cake, and all of his great recordings are equal to one another.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on August 03, 2012, 10:47:42 AM

Well comparing Helter Skelter/Amusement Parks based on the shared subject matter is a red herring anyway and frankly absurd - We'd do well to move beyond that. But to suggest Helter Skelter is just a song about a fairground ride is ridiculous. Even if McCartney wrote the lyrics that way, by the time they lay down the track there's something else going on.

I love the lyrics to Pet Sounds and Smile as much as anyone, but they are the mere cherry on top of the cake, a bonus. Even Van Dyke Parks thinks that. Brian Wilson's music is the cake, and all of his great recordings are equal to one another.

Can't disagree with that.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Mike's Beard on August 03, 2012, 10:48:28 AM
I think the guys had made the definitive "fun in the sun" statement with All Summer Long. Amusement Parks USA and Salt Lake City add nothing that hasn't already been said before better. You're So Good To Me uses very lazy rhyming patterns and Bugged at My Ol' Man is just a bad song period.

4 songs dragging down a record that could have otherwise surpassed Today!. I think they had to rush somewhat to meet a summer deadline, and overall the album suffers as a result.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 10:50:35 AM
I think the guys had made the definitive "fun in the sun" statement with All Summer Long. Amusement Parks USA and Salt Lake City add nothing that hasn't already been said before better.

Absolutely - diminishing returns.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Disney Boy (1985) on August 03, 2012, 10:55:59 AM
Yeah, it is frustrating, isn't it?

What, that people here don't just blindly agree with your whacked out opinions? Fella, you have your own board for that.

Listen, you clueless teabag, you are what I wipe off the bottom of my shoe after I walk through my lawn. Your opinions are square and laughable, and have been cribbed off others. Me and others laughed at you when you were on The Smile Shop, we were just too nice to tell you to your face.

Are you 6 years old?

I'm telling you the truth. You think you can say what you said, and not get it back threefold, you little poncy reject? Why didn't you speak to Bubba Ho-Tep that way?

I like Bubba Ho Tep.

Me too. Especially that bit when Bruce Campbell whacks the giant bug with his bed pan!


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 11:03:55 AM
Ya'll are listening to Beach Boys records, specifically a heartfelt, soulful tune such as You're So Good To Me, one of the GROOVIEST pop records ever made, and thinking about "lazy rhyming patterns"? Seriously?
Amusement Parks and Salt Lake City are about specific things not covered by ASL, as 'Til I Die is about a specific emotional state not entirely covered by Pet Sounds. Both entirely valid when suffused by the incredible music and arrangements of Brian Wilson.
There is AS MUCH VARIATION to be explored when dealing with "fun" subjects, if not more so, as there is when dealing with "weightier" topics. Let's just admit it: folks who come to Brian Wilson through the anguish of Pet Sounds and the dizzying beautiful insanity of Smile do not like the earlier material as much simply because they do not relate as much to being outside and having a great time, in the sun, with a pretty girl (or guy, depending on your sex/preference).
Mike Love's "fun" lyrics of the era are excellent artistic successors to the collected works of Chuck Berry, the true greatest lyricist in rock and roll.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on August 03, 2012, 11:07:19 AM
Ya'll are listening to Beach Boys records, specifically a heartfelt, soulful tune such as You're So Good To Me, one of the GROOVIEST pop records ever made, and thinking about "lazy rhyming patterns"? Seriously?

Now this I agree with 100 percent.

And every night/you hold me so tight/when I kiss you goodbye
You're so good to me/and I love it/love it.

If that's a lazy rhyming pattern......


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 03, 2012, 11:09:23 AM
I think the guys had made the definitive "fun in the sun" statement with All Summer Long. Amusement Parks USA and Salt Lake City add nothing that hasn't already been said before better. You're So Good To Me uses very lazy rhyming patterns and Bugged at My Ol' Man is just a bad song period.

4 songs dragging down a record that could have otherwise surpassed Today!. I think they had to rush somewhat to meet a summer deadline, and overall the album suffers as a result.
You're right, maybe it is just the 1965 version of Shut Down Volume 2. Brian was always under the gun from Capitol for new product or maybe he was going for a lighter vibe than what was presented on Today.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Mike's Beard on August 03, 2012, 11:19:49 AM
Ya'll are listening to Beach Boys records, specifically a heartfelt, soulful tune such as You're So Good To Me, one of the GROOVIEST pop records ever made, and thinking about "lazy rhyming patterns"? Seriously?
Amusement Parks and Salt Lake City are about specific things not covered by ASL, as 'Til I Die is about a specific emotional state not entirely covered by Pet Sounds. Both entirely valid when suffused by the incredible music and arrangements of Brian Wilson.
There is AS MUCH VARIATION to be explored when dealing with "fun" subjects, if not more so, as there is when dealing with "weightier" topics. Let's just admit it: folks who come to Brian Wilson through the anguish of Pet Sounds and the dizzying beautiful insanity of Smile do not like the earlier material as much simply because they do not relate as much to being outside and having a great time, in the sun, with a pretty girl (or guy, depending on your sex/preference).
Mike Love's "fun" lyrics of the era are excellent artistic successors to the collected works of Chuck Berry, the true greatest lyricist in rock and roll.

I rank Surfin' USA ahead of Smile and Pet Sounds in my personal BB's top 10, so it's not as if I hold a predudice towards the earlier stuff. It's just that there are average summertime songs as well as great ones and Summer Days (IMO) holds a couple of the former.



4 songs dragging down a record that could have otherwise surpassed Today!. I think they had to rush somewhat to meet a summer deadline, and overall the album suffers as a result.
You're right, maybe it is just the 1965 version of Shut Down Volume 2. Brian was always under the gun from Capitol for new product or maybe he was going for a lighter vibe than what was presented on Today.

Exactly. What was the tiimeframe between Today! and Summer Days!, four months?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 11:28:50 AM

I rank Surfin' USA ahead of Smile and Pet Sounds in my personal BB's top 10, so it's not as if I hold a predudice towards the earlier stuff. It's just that there are average summertime songs as well as great ones and Summer Days (IMO) holds a couple of the former.
 

Fair enough and right on, glad to hear you're not one of the folks I was speaking of in my blanket statement.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on August 03, 2012, 11:35:31 AM
I'm throwing in the towel. Gonna go over to the Shut Down II/All Summer Long thread and start some sh*t over there.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 11:50:55 AM
Mike Love's "fun" lyrics of the era are excellent artistic successors to the collected works of Chuck Berry, the true greatest lyricist in rock and roll.

At Mike's peak on songs such as Fun, Fun, Fun, I'd agree with you ... almost. Mike didn't have the genius for syncopation and rhythm that Chuck Berry displayed in songs such as Nadine - in that respect Berry is closer to Dylan than Mike Love.

But in 65, Chuck's lyrics weren't cutting it anymore, save the occasional hip resurrection by the likes of The Stones that would come several years later. I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp this change in trend of lyrical subject matter from superficial themes of sun, fun, school to the more introspective, naval-gazey stuff. I'm not arguing that one is necessarily better than the other but that they belong in their respective time frames, and Mike's approach in the latter half of the 60s was outdated - All Summer Long/Today having been his high water mark. He was the perfect lyricist up to 65 because he was the Californian everyman in touch with the teens he was writing for. But from 65 onwards people wanted something more poetic, abstract, less literal, which was not Mike's forte.



Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on August 03, 2012, 11:58:33 AM
Mike Love's "fun" lyrics of the era are excellent artistic successors to the collected works of Chuck Berry, the true greatest lyricist in rock and roll.

At Mike's peak on songs such as Fun, Fun, Fun, I'd agree with you ... almost. Mike didn't have the genius for syncopation and rhythm that Chuck Berry displayed in songs such as Nadine - in that respect Berry is closer to Dylan than Mike Love.

But in 65, Chuck's lyrics weren't cutting it anymore, save the occasional hip resurrection by the likes of The Stones that would come several years later. I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp this change in trend of lyrical subject matter from superficial themes of sun, fun, school to the more introspective, naval-gazey stuff. I'm not arguing that one is necessarily better than the other but that they belong in their respective time frames, and Mike's approach in the latter half of the 60s was outdated - All Summer Long/Today having been his high water mark. He was the perfect lyricist up to 65 because he was the Californian everyman in touch with the teens he was writing for. But from 65 onwards people wanted something more poetic, abstract, less literal, which was not Mike's forte.



I think that's a huge generalization. Not that I was alive, but the teens were the main record buyers primarily, and I don't think they cared either way. They were buying up Herman's Hermits records at the same time as Summer Days. Hardly absract.

I just have a problem with some of Mike's lyrics on this album, not the fact that they weren't doing an album of 12 "Kiss Me Baby"s. Look at something like Gary Lewis and The Playboys "She's Just My Style", which was a huge 1966 hit - same fun territory that California Girls mined, it's just a really good record with groovy lyrics - they scan perfectly. I can't say the same for Amusement Parks or Salt Lake City - but that's my hang up, not anyone else's.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: NHC on August 03, 2012, 12:05:36 PM
People start these type of threads, but then get pissed or defensive if you post different than the norm. It happens in almost every "versus" thread.

Hang on, I'm Norm and I don't mind what anyone else posts (not that I have to like it, of course, you understand  :) ).


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 12:06:10 PM
But from 65 onwards people wanted something more poetic, abstract, less literal, which was not Mike's forte.



And those type of people would never accept that type of abstract poeticism from The Beach Boys on any mass level. Pet Sounds didn't sell to a new audience, it sold to a lot of their older audience. Smile would have sold to even less. And those people of that era who would never have accepted the band as a serious entity are below consideration. Those are the type of people to, in fact, avoid like the plague. Also, Pet Sounds itself features very linear, plain, straight-ahead lyrics that mostly reflect guy/girl concerns (in fact, I have personally experienced more non-BB believers rolling their eyes to the lyrics of Pet Sounds and Smile than to say, Be True To Your School). The MUSIC is what makes Pet Sounds a transcendent work that surpasses previous albums. If Van Dyke Parks' abstract wordplay could have sold the band to a newer audience, why has he sold about 200 copies each of all his own albums? Everyone loves Sunflower, but are the lyrics to many of those songs truly better than those of Mike Love's mid-60's work? One of the only songs from that album that everyone agrees upon as being great is All I Wanna Do, with lyrics by Mike Love. Or is it the SOUND of Sunflower that people love? Does the sound and feel sanctify the plain, naive lyrics? If so, the same courtesy should be extended to the earlier stuff.
The Beach Boys were NEVER going to compete with Bob Dylan, and there was no reason to attempt doing so. Because when it comes down to it, pretty much everyone's else's "heavy abstraction" seems foolish. Compare even Cabin-Essence to Visions Of Johanna. What makes Cabin-Essence the arguably better record of the two? The music.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 12:07:14 PM
Oh yeah, I voted for Today. I just love Dance Dance Dance.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: NHC on August 03, 2012, 12:15:59 PM

The Beach Boys couldn't compete as cultural or political commentators from 65 onwards, but in exploring emotional depth they were second to none. This is why albums such as Pet Sounds and Today where emotional songs predominate have stood the test of time far better than the surf & turf albums.

The last thing i ever wanted from the Beach Boys was for them to be cultural or political commentators.

And as spectacular as Pet Sounds  - the best album of all time - and Today  - right up there, too - may be, I still go straight for surf and hot rods when I need an emotional high and want to just feel good about life and my youth.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 12:26:30 PM
But from 65 onwards people wanted something more poetic, abstract, less literal, which was not Mike's forte.



And those type of people would never accept that type of abstract poeticism from The Beach Boys on any mass level. Pet Sounds didn't sell to a new audience, it sold to a lot of their older audience. Smile would have sold to even less. And those people of that era who would never have accepted the band as a serious entity are below consideration. Those are the type of people to, in fact, avoid like the plague. Also, Pet Sounds itself features very linear, plain, straight-ahead lyrics that mostly reflect guy/girl concerns (in fact, I have personally experienced more non-BB believers rolling their eyes to the lyrics of Pet Sounds and Smile than to say, Be True To Your School). The MUSIC is what makes Pet Sounds a transcendent work that surpasses previous albums. If Van Dyke Parks' abstract wordplay could have sold the band to a newer audience, why has he sold about 200 copies each of all his own albums? Everyone loves Sunflower, but are the lyrics to many of those songs truly better than those of Mike Love's mid-60's work? One of the only songs from that album that everyone agrees upon as being great is All I Wanna Do, with lyrics by Mike Love. Or is it the SOUND of Sunflower that people love? Does the sound and feel sanctify the plain, naive lyrics? If so, the same courtesy should be extended to the earlier stuff.
The Beach Boys were NEVER going to compete with Bob Dylan, and there was no reason to attempt doing so. Because when it comes down to it, pretty much everyone's else's "heavy abstraction" seems foolish. Compare even Cabin-Essence to Visions Of Johanna. What makes Cabin-Essence the arguably better record of the two? The music.

 I agree on the problems of VDP's lyrics commercially. Pet Sounds lyrics are apparently straight ahead, apparently not superficially more complex than Mike's SDSN lyrics. However where Asher's lyrics triumph is that they deal with archetypal and timeless boy/girl themes, not anchored to a place such as Salt Lake City, activity (Amusement Parks) or attitude (California Girls). There is also poetic depth and ambiguity in God Only Knows that is light years ahead of anything Mike could do at this point. Wouldn't It Be Nice perfectly captures the naivety of youth, the potential for disappointment. Real human characters are sketched in a song such as That's Not Me. The lyrics are far more sophisticated and subtle than anything Mike could manage. Married to Brian's incredible tracks you have THE boy/girl teen angst record that will resonate for all time.

To give Mike his dues, ironically he smashes Asher's GV lyrics - Asher's are too time-bound with all that "working on my brain" stuff whereas Mike's somehow manage to be timeless. Mike also got one over on VDP in this respect - the most successful Smile era release has lyrics by Mike.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 12:43:46 PM
However where Asher's lyrics triumph is that they deal with archetypal and timeless boy/girl themes, not anchored to a place such as Salt Lake City, activity (Amusement Parks) or attitude (California Girls).

Fair enough, but Asher's lyrics get rated as triumphs because they accompany highly emotional music in a complementary manner that is easy to understand. Asher hasn't done anything else of note in his career.
Also, one simply cannot say that California Girls isn't timeless. Time, ironically, itself has proved this to be true. When we're all dead and buried, and The Beach Boys' great-grandchildren are singing their songs onstage, the audience will be singing along to that one. And as much of that appeal is based on the lyrical content as the appeal of Pet Sounds. People dig when guys sing about girls. Especially girls in the audience.
I wish people would see, as I do, that some of the group's most headchanging work is keyed to a seeming dichotomy between the content of the lyrics and how they are expressed. This dichotomy makes the band weird, three-dimensional, non-black-and-white, unique among their peers.
Every time I hear Spirit Of America, for instance, the emotion of the melody, the arrangement, the chords, Brian's heart-tugging vocal nearly brings me to tears. Then I realise that he is singing about a guy breaking the land-speed record. This doesn't diminish my appreciation, it heightens it, sends it to the skies. Because that is what reality is, the things that move us in our daily lives are stolen moments, sometimes things that others would deem entirely trivial. The story behind Spirit Of America is LITERAL trivia. But what Brian finds in that trivia, what he scores it to, is the story of a daredevil recordbreaker, smashing boundaries again the odds of naysayers, personifying the pioneer spirit of the country from which he hails. Now, I don't know about you, but I think that story may be something Brian may have personally related to in a large way, perhaps more so than say, the story of the Chinese coolie building a railroad.
But wait, that's entirely wrong. Smile's central lyrical subject is the pioneering, alternately destructive and creative, manifest destiny spirit in the story of modern civilization. Therefore, the spirit of Smile, the spirit of America itself, in all its paradoxical glory, can already be heard in Spirit Of America.
It is all an emotional mirror image, when one disregards the detail and goes for the heart value of Brian's work.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 12:47:04 PM
However where Asher's lyrics triumph is that they deal with archetypal and timeless boy/girl themes, not anchored to a place such as Salt Lake City, activity (Amusement Parks) or attitude (California Girls).

Fair enough, but Asher's lyrics get rated as triumphs because they accompany highly emotional music in a complementary manner that is easy to understand. Asher hasn't done anything else of note in his career.
Also, one simply cannot say that California Girls isn't timeless. Time, ironically, itself has proved this to be true. When we're all dead and buried, and The Beach Boys' great-grandchildren are singing their songs onstage, the audience will be singing along to that one. And as much of that appeal is based on the lyrical content as the appeal of Pet Sounds. People dig when guys sing about girls. Especially girls in the audience.
I wish people would see, as I do, that some of the group's most headchanging work is keyed to a seeming dichotomy between the content of the lyrics and how they are expressed. This dichotomy makes the band weird, three-dimensional, non-black-and-white, unique among their peers.
Every time I hear Spirit Of America, for instance, the emotion of the melody, the arrangement, the chords, Brian's heart-tugging vocal nearly brings me to tears. Then I realise that he is singing about a guy breaking the land-speed record. This doesn't diminish my appreciation, it heightens it, sends it to the skies. Because that is what reality is, the things that move us in our daily lives are stolen moments, sometimes things that others would deem entirely trivial. The story behind Spirit Of America is LITERAL trivia. But what Brian finds in that trivia, what he scores it to, is the story of a daredevil recordbreaker, smashing boundaries again the odds of naysayers, personifying the pioneer spirit of the country from which he hails. Now, I don't know about you, but I think that story may be something Brian may have personally related to in a large way, perhaps more so than say, the story of the Chinese coolie building a railroad.
But wait, that's entirely wrong. Smile's central lyrical subject is the pioneering, alternately destructive and creative, manifest destiny spirit in the story of modern civilization. Therefore, the spirit of Smile, the spirit of America itself, in all its paradoxical glory, can already be heard in Spirit Of America.
It is all an emotional mirror image, when one disregards the detail and goes for the heart value of Brian's work.

Well I can't argue with your sentiment here.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 12:56:06 PM
I promise I'll stop, to the delight of many here, after this, but: one of my favorite lyrics to any song is actually in Amusement Parks USA, when Mike sings:

At first you'll be a chicken at the jackhammer ride/But you'll do it with a girl sitting right by your side

To me, this illuminates, in a clearer fashion than anything else I have heard/read, the nature of the American masculine ego, in which one can only "man up" when in the presence of what one perceives as greater "weakness". In this silly song, an essential, heavy truth is buried and unrecognised. Probably by design.
In my opinion.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Compost on August 03, 2012, 01:18:05 PM
Every time I hear Spirit Of America, for instance, the emotion of the melody, the arrangement, the chords, Brian's heart-tugging vocal nearly brings me to tears. Then I realise that he is singing about a guy breaking the land-speed record. This doesn't diminish my appreciation, it heightens it, sends it to the skies. Because that is what reality is, the things that move us in our daily lives are stolen moments, sometimes things that others would deem entirely trivial. The story behind Spirit Of America is LITERAL trivia. But what Brian finds in that trivia, what he scores it to, is the story of a daredevil recordbreaker, smashing boundaries again the odds of naysayers, personifying the pioneer spirit of the country from which he hails.

You know, I just finished watching 'The Tree of Life' 15 minutes ago and goddammit if that isn't the precise notion I took away from it.  That is some profound sh*t.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 01:21:30 PM
Every time I hear Spirit Of America, for instance, the emotion of the melody, the arrangement, the chords, Brian's heart-tugging vocal nearly brings me to tears. Then I realise that he is singing about a guy breaking the land-speed record. This doesn't diminish my appreciation, it heightens it, sends it to the skies. Because that is what reality is, the things that move us in our daily lives are stolen moments, sometimes things that others would deem entirely trivial. The story behind Spirit Of America is LITERAL trivia. But what Brian finds in that trivia, what he scores it to, is the story of a daredevil recordbreaker, smashing boundaries again the odds of naysayers, personifying the pioneer spirit of the country from which he hails.

You know, I just finished watching 'The Tree of Life' 15 minutes ago and goddammit if that isn't the precise notion I took away from it.  That is some profound sh*t.


Ahh, I love that movie very, very much, so that probably filtered through my thoughts without my knowing it.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 01:27:02 PM
Every time I hear Spirit Of America, for instance, the emotion of the melody, the arrangement, the chords, Brian's heart-tugging vocal nearly brings me to tears. Then I realise that he is singing about a guy breaking the land-speed record. This doesn't diminish my appreciation, it heightens it, sends it to the skies. Because that is what reality is, the things that move us in our daily lives are stolen moments, sometimes things that others would deem entirely trivial. The story behind Spirit Of America is LITERAL trivia. But what Brian finds in that trivia, what he scores it to, is the story of a daredevil recordbreaker, smashing boundaries again the odds of naysayers, personifying the pioneer spirit of the country from which he hails.

You know, I just finished watching 'The Tree of Life' 15 minutes ago and goddammit if that isn't the precise notion I took away from it.  That is some profound sh*t.

Man I've never cried so much at a movie as that - was actually embarrassed in the theatre!


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Compost on August 03, 2012, 01:30:55 PM
Oh gawd - I had a painful knot in my throat the whole time.  The last 1/2 hour absolutely gutted me.

Back to the lyrics now.  I get it.  When I'm on my deathbed (assuming that's how I exit) it's not the big picture stuff I'll be reflecting on, it'll be the little things of no real significance to any one but me. 


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: rab2591 on August 03, 2012, 01:33:54 PM
Every time I hear Spirit Of America, for instance, the emotion of the melody, the arrangement, the chords, Brian's heart-tugging vocal nearly brings me to tears. Then I realise that he is singing about a guy breaking the land-speed record. This doesn't diminish my appreciation, it heightens it, sends it to the skies. Because that is what reality is, the things that move us in our daily lives are stolen moments, sometimes things that others would deem entirely trivial. The story behind Spirit Of America is LITERAL trivia. But what Brian finds in that trivia, what he scores it to, is the story of a daredevil recordbreaker, smashing boundaries again the odds of naysayers, personifying the pioneer spirit of the country from which he hails.

You know, I just finished watching 'The Tree of Life' 15 minutes ago and goddammit if that isn't the precise notion I took away from it.  That is some profound sh*t.

That is probably the best movie I have ever seen. In fact, kinda coincidental: I watched the creation scene on youtube just a few hours ago.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 01:47:21 PM
Oh gawd - I had a painful knot in my throat the whole time.  The last 1/2 hour absolutely gutted me.

Back to the lyrics now.  I get it.  When I'm on my deathbed (assuming that's how I exit) it's not the big picture stuff I'll be reflecting on, it'll be the little things of no real significance to any one but me. 

Brian Wilson is the Stolen Moment Man of music. Things like Games Two Can Play, I Went To Sleep, Busy Doin' Nothing, I'd Love Just Once To See You, Everybody Wants To Live, Still I Dream Of It, etc. to infinity. Hell, Chug-A-Lug fits the bill, it may as well be American Graffiti. A root beer run caught in time, all suspects named. I wish I was back at a time when I felt like a cold root beer could save my life.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Compost on August 03, 2012, 02:28:36 PM
Oh gawd - I had a painful knot in my throat the whole time.  The last 1/2 hour absolutely gutted me.

Back to the lyrics now.  I get it.  When I'm on my deathbed (assuming that's how I exit) it's not the big picture stuff I'll be reflecting on, it'll be the little things of no real significance to any one but me. 

Brian Wilson is the Stolen Moment Man of music. Things like Games Two Can Play, I Went To Sleep, Busy Doin' Nothing, I'd Love Just Once To See You, Everybody Wants To Live, Still I Dream Of It, etc. to infinity. Hell, Chug-A-Lug fits the bill, it may as well be American Graffiti. A root beer run caught in time, all suspects named. I wish I was back at a time when I felt like a cold root beer could save my life.
And that, folks, settles the lyric debate as far as I'm concerned.  Absolutely on the mark.  Sign me up! 


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: TimeToGetAlone on August 03, 2012, 02:35:45 PM
My vote has to be Today! quite easily.  I think Today! is a near perfect album while Summer Days is merely good with notable highlights.  Summer Days fits more naturally after All Summer Long than Today did stylistically, and if I didn't know any better I would think the order of the two was reversed.  Nevertheless, while Today! is a landmark and the better album, Summer Days does demonstrate some notable steps forward in comparison to anything before Today (though I'd probably say All Summer Long and Surfer Girl are more well-rounded)  I'm pleased to have both.  That two albums of this level can be put out in a year is an achievement in itself.  As usual, here are my song rankings...

Kiss Me, Baby
Please Let Me Wonder
She Knows Me Too Well
Let Him Run Wild
In the Back of My Mind
I'm So Young
When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)
You're So Good To Me
California Girls
Do You Wanna Dance
Then I Kissed Her
Summer Means New Love
Girl Don't Tell Me
Dance, Dance, Dance
Good to My Baby
Help Me, Rhonda
Don't Hurt My Little Sister
Salt Lake City
The Girl From New York City
I'm Bugged At My Ol' Man
And Your Dream Comes True
Help Me, Ronda
Amusement Parks U.S.A.
Bull Sessions with "Big Daddy"

I should also point out as someone who doesn't care that much about lyrics that my vote is based on the music, in particular the breathtaking, sonically unpredictable ballads of side two.  I don't always favour melancholic songs, but I tend to find as far as the Beach Boys go the ballads take me to places very few songs can.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on August 03, 2012, 02:57:43 PM
Oh gawd - I had a painful knot in my throat the whole time.  The last 1/2 hour absolutely gutted me.

Back to the lyrics now.  I get it.  When I'm on my deathbed (assuming that's how I exit) it's not the big picture stuff I'll be reflecting on, it'll be the little things of no real significance to any one but me. 

Brian Wilson is the Stolen Moment Man of music. Things like Games Two Can Play, I Went To Sleep, Busy Doin' Nothing, I'd Love Just Once To See You, Everybody Wants To Live, Still I Dream Of It, etc. to infinity. Hell, Chug-A-Lug fits the bill, it may as well be American Graffiti. A root beer run caught in time, all suspects named. I wish I was back at a time when I felt like a cold root beer could save my life.
And that, folks, settles the lyric debate as far as I'm concerned.  Absolutely on the mark.  Sign me up! 

But that wasn't the debate, at least it didn't start out that way. Ian originally raised the question why "fun" lyrics/songs aren't held to the same level and esteem as the serious, "emotional" themes and songs.

Nobody is arguing with Ian or anyone else about the merits and how enjoyable it is to listen to the early stuff. A very, very large percentage of Beach Boys' fans LOVE the early recordings. They respect it, defend it, and consistently pull it out and listen to it. But, for some reason, we (whoever that might be) tend to rate/judge/argue that the later, non-fun, "emotional" music is somehow superior. That was the question, not whether we can still enjoy and appreciate the surf & turf tunes. They are two separate issues.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Jeff on August 03, 2012, 03:46:50 PM
Oh gawd - I had a painful knot in my throat the whole time.  The last 1/2 hour absolutely gutted me.

Back to the lyrics now.  I get it.  When I'm on my deathbed (assuming that's how I exit) it's not the big picture stuff I'll be reflecting on, it'll be the little things of no real significance to any one but me. 

Brian Wilson is the Stolen Moment Man of music. Things like Games Two Can Play, I Went To Sleep, Busy Doin' Nothing, I'd Love Just Once To See You, Everybody Wants To Live, Still I Dream Of It, etc. to infinity. Hell, Chug-A-Lug fits the bill, it may as well be American Graffiti. A root beer run caught in time, all suspects named. I wish I was back at a time when I felt like a cold root beer could save my life.
And that, folks, settles the lyric debate as far as I'm concerned.  Absolutely on the mark.  Sign me up! 

But that wasn't the debate, at least it didn't start out that way. Ian originally raised the question why "fun" lyrics/songs aren't held to the same level and esteem as the serious, "emotional" themes and songs.

Nobody is arguing with Ian or anyone else about the merits and how enjoyable it is to listen to the early stuff. A very, very large percentage of Beach Boys' fans LOVE the early recordings. They respect it, defend it, and consistently pull it out and listen to it. But, for some reason, we (whoever that might be) tend to rate/judge/argue that the later, non-fun, "emotional" music is somehow superior. That was the question, not whether we can still enjoy and appreciate the surf & turf tunes. They are two separate issues.

It also ignores the fact that, as with any genre, there are varying levels of quality.  A song with juvenile lyrics can be great if it manages to speak to the listener in a way that resonates.  Fun Fun Fun and I Get Around are among the best examples of that.  And California Girls is arguably the culmination of all of the Beach Boys' songs to that point.  But it doesn't make sense to simply claim that *all* early Beach Boys songs are great.  They're not.  Salt Lake City, despite a fantastic instrumental track, fails due to ludicrous lyrics.  Any chance that Amusement Parks had to be a good song was defeated by Hal's carnival barker routine.  And I'm Bugged is a not-funny novelty tune that wears out its welcome very quickly.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Amanda Hart on August 03, 2012, 04:39:26 PM
A lot of these "lightweight" early lyrics are really clever. Mike and Brian both had (have) a really good sense of humor and could weave that into their lyrics while they were telling stories or relating a feeling or experience to a listener. Like Sheriff alluded to above, a huge majority of people that are Beach Boys fans love those songs. As much as we value all the Boys music across their career, there is a reason the early hits are the most well-known and accessible lyrics are a big part of that. On their surface they may be singing about girls, cars or absolutely nothing, but they really do an amazing job drawing a listener in and are usually a great compliment to Brian's music.

Besides, "She shimmies, she shakes, she's got the biggest asp in town." That is awesome.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: LetHimRun on August 03, 2012, 06:29:29 PM
Today! for me. SDSN is really, really good, in fact, great, but there is just something about that transition Brian made with Today that is just fantastic.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 09:57:12 PM
But, for some reason, we (whoever that might be) tend to rate/judge/argue that the later, non-fun, "emotional" music is somehow superior. That was the question

Yes, and that was the subject of the debate, the whole way through. Every post of mine was attacking the heart of that notion. How did you miss that?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 03, 2012, 09:58:19 PM
Salt Lake City, despite a fantastic instrumental track, fails due to ludicrous lyrics.  Any chance that Amusement Parks had to be a good song was defeated by Hal's carnival barker routine.  And I'm Bugged is a not-funny novelty tune that wears out its welcome very quickly.

No. All those songs are great. I, and other don't find these classic Beach Boys songs ludicrous, defeated or unfunny. The Beach Boys rule, I defend their great material on a Beach Boys message board, I win, the people who truly love the band win.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: rn57 on August 03, 2012, 10:07:44 PM
I'll go with Today..."She Knows Me Too Well," "Kiss Me Baby," and "Please Let Me Wonder" by themselves put it among the band's top five for me. But Brian has been talking about SD(ASN) a lot in interviews lately, apparently hinting that whenever that rock'n'roll album gets made, it might serve as a kind of model. Which'd be all right with me if it means going in a "Salt Lake City" or "Help Me Rhonda" direction.  Even some of the lesser tracks on it have impressive moments - like the utterly inspired variations on the "Palisades Park" hook in "Amusement Parks USA."


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: NHC on August 03, 2012, 10:50:55 PM
47 years later and I still don't know what makes "Salt Lake City"'s lyrics ludicrous


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 03, 2012, 11:25:42 PM
Salt Lake City, despite a fantastic instrumental track, fails due to ludicrous lyrics.  Any chance that Amusement Parks had to be a good song was defeated by Hal's carnival barker routine.  And I'm Bugged is a not-funny novelty tune that wears out its welcome very quickly.

No. All those songs are great. I, and other don't find these classic Beach Boys songs ludicrous, defeated or unfunny. The Beach Boys rule, I defend their great material on a Beach Boys message board, I win, the people who truly love the band win.

Fun, fun, fun is a great Mike Love lyric. I Get Around and Warmth Of The Sun, and All Summer Long similarly great. It's difficult to pin down exactly what makes them work as for the most part they're dumb and sound like they were written in the car on the way to the studio, but there's an immediacy with Mike's best writing that, coupled with Brian's effortlessly joyous backing tracks, have an instantaneous effect and universal appeal. They're of their time but in a way that becomes iconic, emblematic of a 50s utopian ideal, representative of youth in all its invincible glory. This is why I get Around ends up on a British washing detergent commercial 50 years after it was written and still sounds energized.

Amusement Parks is not a great Mike Love lyric. You think its fabulously pictorial, I think the combination of track, lyrics, sound effects and Hal's routine are overdone and leave nothing to the imagination. It's like a child's picture book where the pictures and words both repeat each other, rather than working in harmony to reveal secrets depicted in neither. The characters and scenes hinted at in the songs I mention above, on the other hand, take on a life of their own, fully realised in the listener's imagination.

Salt Lake City is not a great Mike love lyric:

Down in Utah
The guys and I dig a city called Salt Lake
It's got the grooviest kids
That's why we never get tired of Salt Lake
And the way the kids talk so cool
Is an out of sight thing
And the number one radio station
Makes the town really swing yeah
Salt Lake City we'll be coming soon


No explanation needed there. To suggest all Mike Love lyrics are great (which you're not far off here) is an insult to Mike Love and the band. To suggest those who don't appreciate the lyrics to these songs don't 'truly love the band' is, at best, twaddle.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Jeff on August 04, 2012, 02:03:41 AM
Salt Lake City, despite a fantastic instrumental track, fails due to ludicrous lyrics.  Any chance that Amusement Parks had to be a good song was defeated by Hal's carnival barker routine.  And I'm Bugged is a not-funny novelty tune that wears out its welcome very quickly.

No. All those songs are great. I, and other don't find these classic Beach Boys songs ludicrous, defeated or unfunny. The Beach Boys rule, I defend their great material on a Beach Boys message board, I win, the people who truly love the band win.

People who truly love music have the ability to distinguish between "great" and not great.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: runnersdialzero on August 04, 2012, 11:27:53 AM
Hal's laugh in "Amusement Parks USA" is like the best thing ever. I wish the multitracks would be released as to make it sound more demonic. I attempted it with the original version, but I don't have it on this computer.

But yeah. I am a fan.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Disney Boy (1985) on August 04, 2012, 01:14:48 PM
Hal's laugh in "Amusement Parks USA" is like the best thing ever. I wish the multitracks would be released as to make it sound more demonic. I attempted it with the original version, but I don't have it on this computer.

But yeah. I am a fan.

It's an insane song - i love it! I've always loved the creepy music you get at fairgrounds and Amusement Parks USA, whether intentionally or not, perfectly represents that. (Isn't it Brian doing the crazy laugh by the way, not Hal? And who says 'She looks like a fake to me'? It always makes me laugh! I've always thought it was Dennis...)


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: runnersdialzero on August 04, 2012, 02:13:05 PM
I'm gonna get flamed all to hell for this, but these two albums always felt very "cut from the same cloth" to me, so much so that, sans a few songs, I generally forget which song is from which album. I know Summer Days was an attempt to write more typical Beach Boys songs than Today, but they're still just kind of one big blur of greatness, to me. That's why it's impossible for me to choose.

Hal's laugh in "Amusement Parks USA" is like the best thing ever. I wish the multitracks would be released as to make it sound more demonic. I attempted it with the original version, but I don't have it on this computer.

But yeah. I am a fan.

It's an insane song - i love it! I've always loved the creepy music you get at fairgrounds and Amusement Parks USA, whether intentionally or not, perfectly represents that. (Isn't it Brian doing the crazy laugh by the way, not Hal? And who says 'She looks like a fake to me'? It always makes me laugh! I've always thought it was Dennis...)

^_^ yerp.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 04, 2012, 02:15:38 PM
Salt Lake City, despite a fantastic instrumental track, fails due to ludicrous lyrics.  Any chance that Amusement Parks had to be a good song was defeated by Hal's carnival barker routine.  And I'm Bugged is a not-funny novelty tune that wears out its welcome very quickly.

No. All those songs are great. I, and other don't find these classic Beach Boys songs ludicrous, defeated or unfunny. The Beach Boys rule, I defend their great material on a Beach Boys message board, I win, the people who truly love the band win.

People who truly love music have the ability to distinguish between "great" and not great.

Exactly. Maybe someday you'll be able to, though. I have faith in you.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 04, 2012, 02:20:17 PM

Amusement Parks is not a great Mike Love lyric. You think its fabulously pictorial, I think the combination of track, lyrics, sound effects and Hal's routine are overdone and leave nothing to the imagination. It's like a child's picture book where the pictures and words both repeat each other, rather than working in harmony to reveal secrets depicted in neither. The characters and scenes hinted at in the songs I mention above, on the other hand, take on a life of their own, fully realised in the listener's imagination.

Salt Lake City is not a great Mike love lyric:

Down in Utah
The guys and I dig a city called Salt Lake
It's got the grooviest kids
That's why we never get tired of Salt Lake
And the way the kids talk so cool
Is an out of sight thing
And the number one radio station
Makes the town really swing yeah
Salt Lake City we'll be coming soon


No explanation needed there. To suggest all Mike Love lyrics are great (which you're not far off here) is an insult to Mike Love and the band. To suggest those who don't appreciate the lyrics to these songs don't 'truly love the band' is, at best, twaddle.

They're both great lyrics. Again, I am tired of defending the band on a message board dedicated to them, against people who have no soul. If it was a face-to-face conversation at some Beach Boys fan gathering, I would walk away laughing from anyone who told me they disliked those two tracks and I wouldn't have any interest in anything they would have to say. That's my prerogative, as it is for you to dislike great Beach Boys music and think of yourself as somehow "discerning". Using the example of a child's picture book as a negative when describing Brian Wilson music, for me that just says it all. He is the Adult Child. And focusing on lyrics as a definitive element when discussing the band is missing it entirely as well.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Jeff on August 04, 2012, 03:41:12 PM
They're both great lyrics. Again, I am tired of defending the band on a message board dedicated to them, against people who have no soul. If it was a face-to-face conversation at some Beach Boys fan gathering, I would walk away laughing from anyone who told me they disliked those two tracks and I wouldn't have any interest in anything they would have to say. That's my prerogative, as it is for you to dislike great Beach Boys music and think of yourself as somehow "discerning". Using the example of a child's picture book as a negative when describing Brian Wilson music, for me that just says it all. He is the Adult Child. And focusing on lyrics as a definitive element when discussing the band is missing it entirely as well.

Ah yes, the old "you're not a real fan if you don't like every song the group ever did" argument.  Evey band has those type of "fans."  Ready with the childish insults ("people who have no soul") for anyone who dares to disagree on anything.  You must be a hoot at parties.

Personally, I'm much more interested in fans who attempt to retain a level of objectivitiy, and who actually lisen to the music before deciding that something is "great," rather than simply looking at the name of the band.

Sure, it's your prerogative to laugh at people who disagree with your attempt to impose the "great" label on every single Beach Boys song ever made.  But that means you're laughing at 99.999% of music fans, and you certainly aren't going to win any converts.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on August 04, 2012, 03:49:59 PM
Ah yes, the old "articulately defending a great album to people who can't hear the forest for the trees must mean you blindly love all Beach Boys music and have no objectivity in the subject" argument.



Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Jeff on August 04, 2012, 03:58:08 PM
Ah yes, the old "articulately defending a great album to people who can't hear the forest for the trees must mean you blindly love all Beach Boys music and have no objectivity in the subject" argument.

Um ... he does blindly love all Beach Boys music.  Read his posts.  He's stated repeatedly that evey single Beach Boys song ever made is "great," and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot.  I'm sure he's not the only one who thinks that way on this board.  You too, huh?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 04, 2012, 04:41:15 PM
Ah yes, the old "articulately defending a great album to people who can't hear the forest for the trees must mean you blindly love all Beach Boys music and have no objectivity in the subject" argument.

Um ... he does blindly love all Beach Boys music.  Read his posts.  He's stated repeatedly that evey single Beach Boys song ever made is "great," and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot.  I'm sure he's not the only one who thinks that way on this board.  You too, huh?
When I first came here a couple years ago, I expected more of the "great" than all of the dissatisfaction of their music that goes on here. At first I noticed it on the latter albums, but really didn't expect it with early stuff. Hell, I can go just about anywhere and get the negative stuff. Plus, growing up having to defend my fandom, this was the last place I expected to have to do it. Just an observation.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 05, 2012, 12:23:48 AM

Amusement Parks is not a great Mike Love lyric. You think its fabulously pictorial, I think the combination of track, lyrics, sound effects and Hal's routine are overdone and leave nothing to the imagination. It's like a child's picture book where the pictures and words both repeat each other, rather than working in harmony to reveal secrets depicted in neither. The characters and scenes hinted at in the songs I mention above, on the other hand, take on a life of their own, fully realised in the listener's imagination.

Salt Lake City is not a great Mike love lyric:

Down in Utah
The guys and I dig a city called Salt Lake
It's got the grooviest kids
That's why we never get tired of Salt Lake
And the way the kids talk so cool
Is an out of sight thing
And the number one radio station
Makes the town really swing yeah
Salt Lake City we'll be coming soon


No explanation needed there. To suggest all Mike Love lyrics are great (which you're not far off here) is an insult to Mike Love and the band. To suggest those who don't appreciate the lyrics to these songs don't 'truly love the band' is, at best, twaddle.

They're both great lyrics. Again, I am tired of defending the band on a message board dedicated to them, against people who have no soul. If it was a face-to-face conversation at some Beach Boys fan gathering, I would walk away laughing from anyone who told me they disliked those two tracks and I wouldn't have any interest in anything they would have to say.

I doubt you fare well at anything face-to-face, let alone a Beach Boys fan gathering. Seriously, is this a put on? I'm going to throw in the towel here because, frankly, it's demeaning defending my point in the face of such persistent, juvenile and demented ignorance. If you're going to post here, at least keep it sane.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: runnersdialzero on August 05, 2012, 12:26:53 AM
Come on, you guys. >: (


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 05, 2012, 12:33:47 AM
Ah yes, the old "articulately defending a great album to people who can't hear the forest for the trees must mean you blindly love all Beach Boys music and have no objectivity in the subject" argument.

Um ... he does blindly love all Beach Boys music.  Read his posts.  He's stated repeatedly that evey single Beach Boys song ever made is "great," and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot.  I'm sure he's not the only one who thinks that way on this board.  You too, huh?
When I first came here a couple years ago, I expected more of the "great" than all of the dissatisfaction of their music that goes on here. At first I noticed it on the latter albums, but really didn't expect it with early stuff. Hell, I can go just about anywhere and get the negative stuff. Plus, growing up having to defend my fandom, this was the last place I expected to have to do it. Just an observation.

I'm criticizing the lyrics on a handful of songs from SD&SN, an album that I have otherwise stated my huge appreciation for. I don't know what type of fan board you're searching for mate, but this ain't it. You're deranged, the lot of you  :wall


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Mike's Beard on August 05, 2012, 01:01:24 AM
The fact that Amusement Parks USA has never graced any of the 10001 compilations the band has put out, or can hardly be considered a staple of their live shows, must show that the band don't exactly rate it in their upper echelon of songs.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: runnersdialzero on August 05, 2012, 01:14:36 AM
The fact that Amusement Parks USA has never graced any of the 10001 compilations the band has put out, or can hardly be considered a staple of their live shows, must show that the band don't exactly rate it in their upper echelon of songs.

"Cabin Essence" has never been played live and never appeared on a compilation. What a flaming pile of shit imo.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 05, 2012, 01:39:26 AM
The fact that Amusement Parks USA has never graced any of the 10001 compilations the band has put out, or can hardly be considered a staple of their live shows, must show that the band don't exactly rate it in their upper echelon of songs.

"Cabin Essence" has never been played live and never appeared on a compilation. What a flaming pile of shit imo.

Well, Cabinessence is on the GV box so not strictly true.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Disney Boy (1985) on August 05, 2012, 02:29:40 AM
'At first you'll be a chicken when you check out a ride/But you'll do it with a girl sitting right by your side' - i personally have always adored that line. I think it's a great rhyming couplet.

Oh, and still no answer to my question: Who plays the surly boyfriend? ('Nah, it's too much')


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: drbeachboy on August 05, 2012, 04:37:49 AM
Ah yes, the old "articulately defending a great album to people who can't hear the forest for the trees must mean you blindly love all Beach Boys music and have no objectivity in the subject" argument.

Um ... he does blindly love all Beach Boys music.  Read his posts.  He's stated repeatedly that evey single Beach Boys song ever made is "great," and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot.  I'm sure he's not the only one who thinks that way on this board.  You too, huh?
When I first came here a couple years ago, I expected more of the "great" than all of the dissatisfaction of their music that goes on here. At first I noticed it on the latter albums, but really didn't expect it with early stuff. Hell, I can go just about anywhere and get the negative stuff. Plus, growing up having to defend my fandom, this was the last place I expected to have to do it. Just an observation.

I'm criticizing the lyrics on a handful of songs from SD&SN, an album that I have otherwise stated my huge appreciation for. I don't know what type of fan board you're searching for mate, but this ain't it. You're deranged, the lot of you  :wall
It was not directed squarely at you. It was a general observation and comment. I have been here for years now, so I know exactly what it is like here. Was just saying that at first glance it wasn't what I thought it would be.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Mike's Beard on August 05, 2012, 09:39:03 AM
The fact that Amusement Parks USA has never graced any of the 10001 compilations the band has put out, or can hardly be considered a staple of their live shows, must show that the band don't exactly rate it in their upper echelon of songs.

"Cabin Essence" has never been played live and never appeared on a compilation. What a flaming pile of shit imo.

Well, Cabinessence is on the GV box so not strictly true.

Exactly. Whilst Amusements Parks USA isn't. Also Brian has played Cabinessance live in his solo shows.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 12:12:37 PM
Ah yes, the old "articulately defending a great album to people who can't hear the forest for the trees must mean you blindly love all Beach Boys music and have no objectivity in the subject" argument.

Um ... he does blindly love all Beach Boys music.  Read his posts.  He's stated repeatedly that evey single Beach Boys song ever made is "great," and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot.  I'm sure he's not the only one who thinks that way on this board.  You too, huh?

I haven't stated that every Beach Boys song is great, even once. Learn to read before you mischaracterise others' opinions. There are tons of their songs I dislike, some of them big fan favorites such as the utterly dreadful All This Is That, Funky Pretty, Then I Kissed Her and At My Window. But I don't pipe up every time those songs are discussed and whinge away about it.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 12:17:42 PM

I doubt you fare well at anything face-to-face, let alone a Beach Boys fan gathering. Seriously, is this a put on? I'm going to throw in the towel here because, frankly, it's demeaning defending my point in the face of such persistent, juvenile and demented ignorance. If you're going to post here, at least keep it sane.

Man, I have already demonstrated that I am about a billion times more eloquent in defending my thoughts and stating my side of the argument, than you could ever do for your side of it. Don't tell me merda about posting here, I was here before you were, you're a piece of lame, stupid, square, laughable trash. In my humble opinion.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 12:18:47 PM
You're deranged, the lot of you  :wall

No, we are Beach Boys fans. You're something else.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 12:19:28 PM
'At first you'll be a chicken when you check out a ride/But you'll do it with a girl sitting right by your side' - i personally have always adored that line. I think it's a great rhyming couplet.

Oh, and still no answer to my question: Who plays the surly boyfriend? ('Nah, it's too much')

That is Brian.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 12:20:02 PM
The fact that Amusement Parks USA has never graced any of the 10001 compilations the band has put out, or can hardly be considered a staple of their live shows, must show that the band don't exactly rate it in their upper echelon of songs.

Same with All I Wanna Do.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Mike's Beard on August 05, 2012, 01:06:19 PM
I wonder if All I Wanna Do is possible to pull off live?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on August 05, 2012, 01:10:34 PM
I wonder if All I Wanna Do is possible to pull off live?

Sure it is. The delayed vocals notwithstanding, it would be better without them anyway.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
The thing to do for that song would be to perform it as acoustic/natural as possible, and rely on the tune and melody, without trying to emulate the studio production at all.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 05, 2012, 02:17:07 PM

I doubt you fare well at anything face-to-face, let alone a Beach Boys fan gathering. Seriously, is this a put on? I'm going to throw in the towel here because, frankly, it's demeaning defending my point in the face of such persistent, juvenile and demented ignorance. If you're going to post here, at least keep it sane.

Man, I have already demonstrated that I am about a billion times more eloquent in defending my thoughts and stating my side of the argument, than you could ever do for your side of it. Don't tell me merda about posting here, I was here before you were, you're a piece of lame, stupid, square, laughable trash. In my humble opinion.

"I'm a billion times better than you ... You're a piece of trash etc. etc." You demonstrate many things in your car-crash posts, but eloquence isn't one of them. At least you didn't suggest I go try a razorblade this time. That was inspired.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 02:39:48 PM

I doubt you fare well at anything face-to-face, let alone a Beach Boys fan gathering. Seriously, is this a put on? I'm going to throw in the towel here because, frankly, it's demeaning defending my point in the face of such persistent, juvenile and demented ignorance. If you're going to post here, at least keep it sane.

Man, I have already demonstrated that I am about a billion times more eloquent in defending my thoughts and stating my side of the argument, than you could ever do for your side of it. Don't tell me merda about posting here, I was here before you were, you're a piece of lame, stupid, square, laughable trash. In my humble opinion.

"I'm a billion times better than you ... You're a piece of trash etc. etc." You demonstrate many things in your car-crash posts, but eloquence isn't one of them. At least you didn't suggest I go try a razorblade this time. That was inspired.

Man, I am a published writer, and a musician who has toured, been on a major label, etc. I have hung out and talked with Brian Wilson on several occasions, thanks to my old friend Rodney Bingenheimer. Far more people have responded positively to my thoughts on music than you will ever garner, and you know that. You are a nasty, passive-aggressive little creep on a message board. Even if I was a car crash, I'd much rather be that than what you are. Just quit, you'll never get the last word jabbing at me, trust me. I'll vomit on your virtual resting place.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 05, 2012, 03:08:09 PM

I doubt you fare well at anything face-to-face, let alone a Beach Boys fan gathering. Seriously, is this a put on? I'm going to throw in the towel here because, frankly, it's demeaning defending my point in the face of such persistent, juvenile and demented ignorance. If you're going to post here, at least keep it sane.

Man, I have already demonstrated that I am about a billion times more eloquent in defending my thoughts and stating my side of the argument, than you could ever do for your side of it. Don't tell me merda about posting here, I was here before you were, you're a piece of lame, stupid, square, laughable trash. In my humble opinion.

"I'm a billion times better than you ... You're a piece of trash etc. etc." You demonstrate many things in your car-crash posts, but eloquence isn't one of them. At least you didn't suggest I go try a razorblade this time. That was inspired.

Man, I am a published writer, and a musician who has toured, been on a major label, etc. I have hung out and talked with Brian Wilson on several occasions, thanks to my old friend Rodney Bingenheimer. Far more people have responded positively to my thoughts on music than you will ever garner, and you know that. You are a nasty, passive-aggressive little creep on a message board. Even if I was a car crash, I'd much rather be that than what you are. Just quit, you'll never get the last word jabbing at me, trust me. I'll vomit on your virtual resting place.

You know, I was halfway through writing some withering response and it struck me: I am being kind of nasty, or nastier than I would expect of myself. Even in spite of the vitriol you've been peddling, it's not acceptable and, reading back, it appears I may even have goaded you into it in the first place. That you're pulling all this stuff out that you've done - well, I'm not going to piss on that. I find your posts consistently irritating but maybe that's just me. It's certainly not the decent thing to perpetuate this petty squabble in front of all the good people here. I won't apologise because I think you're a cretin, but I will now bow out. No more last words from me. For real this time. Onto the next poll, if anyone still has the inclination ...


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 04:40:21 PM
   I think you're a cretin

No, I'm great. You're a nobody, and you determine nothing, you'll pass from this world without accomplishing anything significant, because you waste your time jabbering on a message board about a band you have no real understanding of. Start with the man in the mirror before you criticise anyone else next time. All you've done here is polish my car.
Today, great album, slightly better than Summer Days, also a great album.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Sam_BFC on August 05, 2012, 05:08:35 PM
There are tons of their songs I dislike, some of them big fan favorites such as the utterly dreadful All This Is That, Funky Pretty, Then I Kissed Her and At My Window. 

D00d!  Al's vocal on Then I Kissed her is one of his best IMO, and BDW agrees  ;)

Surprised you're not a fan of that one.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 05:21:41 PM
There are tons of their songs I dislike, some of them big fan favorites such as the utterly dreadful All This Is That, Funky Pretty, Then I Kissed Her and At My Window.  

D00d!  Al's vocal on Then I Kissed her is one of his best IMO, and BDW agrees  ;)

Surprised you're not a fan of that one.

I'm surprised too! What it is I dislike is the needless change in the title/chorus from Me to Her, so that the male of the song could be the "dominant" figure taking the action (KISS covered it as Then She Kissed Me and it came off just fine). Besides that, I just don't think it was a good idea to change from a soaring "eeeeeeeee" sound, which Al could have really nailed, to a West Coast doofus-sounding "urrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr". I also don't think the scaled-down note-for-note arrangement befitted a Brian production. Carl seems really dubious about doing the song at the session, as well, IIRC. But, I don't skip the song when it comes on, and I respect that I'm in the minority regarding it.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 05, 2012, 05:36:07 PM
Just listened to the first disk of the 1993 box set and the Beach Boys music from 1962-1965 is americana at its finest. Like the Band captured the americana of rural america, the BBs showed the glory and cultural richness of america at mid century and at the peak of the post war boom.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Zach95 on August 05, 2012, 06:08:47 PM
  I think you're a cretin

No, I'm great. You're a nobody, and you determine nothing, you'll pass from this world without accomplishing anything significant, because you waste your time jabbering on a message board about a band you have no real understanding of. Start with the man in the mirror before you criticise anyone else next time. All you've done here is polish my car.
Today, great album, slightly better than Summer Days, also a great album.

I'm sorry, but I just must jump in, albeit politely, here.  Why must you be so boastful, and so abrasive?  I'm  not going to call you names, but you going around calling people trash and telling them that they're nobody in life is a perfect, definitive example of (yes, I'm going to say it) internet bullying. Now, I'm not going to say that buddhahat is suicidal and genuinely depressed over what you called him, but please, for the good of others, can you watch what you say before you say it?  Such glaringly offensive and hurtful remarks might really affect someone on a personal level, even if its on some Beach Boys message board.  Call me what you like, say I'm some sort of  new guy who doesn't understand or who doesn't have thick enough skin, but I think it would be best, for people other than yourself, if you didn't say how great you are, and that other people are "nobody"s and will accomplish nothing in life.  

Anywhoo  ::)


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Jeff on August 05, 2012, 06:42:56 PM
  I think you're a cretin

No, I'm great. You're a nobody, and you determine nothing, you'll pass from this world without accomplishing anything significant, because you waste your time jabbering on a message board about a band you have no real understanding of. Start with the man in the mirror before you criticise anyone else next time. All you've done here is polish my car.
Today, great album, slightly better than Summer Days, also a great album.

I'm sorry, but I just must jump in, albeit politely, here.  Why must you be so boastful, and so abrasive?  I'm  not going to call you names, but you going around calling people trash and telling them that they're nobody in life is a perfect, definitive example of (yes, I'm going to say it) internet bullying. Now, I'm not going to say that buddhahat is suicidal and genuinely depressed over what you called him, but please, for the good of others, can you watch what you say before you say it?  Such glaringly offensive and hurtful remarks might really affect someone on a personal level, even if its on some Beach Boys message board.  Call me what you like, say I'm some sort of  new guy who doesn't understand or who doesn't have thick enough skin, but I think it would be best, for people other than yourself, if you didn't say how great you are, and that other people are "nobody"s and will accomplish nothing in life.  

Anywhoo  ::)

Seconded.  That kind of stuff is certainly uncalled for, and I think it's a real failing of the mods not to step in.  The vast majority of us aren't going to be hurt by Internet insults, but a few will be.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 06:48:51 PM
When someone says this to me without provocation, not responding to a direct insult on my part:

Yeah, it is frustrating, isn't it?

What, that people here don't just blindly agree with your whacked out opinions? Fella, you have your own board for that.

They deserve whatever they get back from me, period. And more. Everything I said was the censored version of what I really wanted to say. He called out the wrong guy. I don't hail from wimpsville. If you want to be righteous, call Buddhahat out for being personally insulting, out of the blue. That was wrong. Period.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 05, 2012, 06:51:13 PM
  I think you're a cretin

No, I'm great. You're a nobody, and you determine nothing, you'll pass from this world without accomplishing anything significant, because you waste your time jabbering on a message board about a band you have no real understanding of. Start with the man in the mirror before you criticise anyone else next time. All you've done here is polish my car.
Today, great album, slightly better than Summer Days, also a great album.

I'm sorry, but I just must jump in, albeit politely, here.  Why must you be so boastful, and so abrasive?  I'm  not going to call you names, but you going around calling people trash and telling them that they're nobody in life is a perfect, definitive example of (yes, I'm going to say it) internet bullying. Now, I'm not going to say that buddhahat is suicidal and genuinely depressed over what you called him, but please, for the good of others, can you watch what you say before you say it?  Such glaringly offensive and hurtful remarks might really affect someone on a personal level, even if its on some Beach Boys message board.  Call me what you like, say I'm some sort of  new guy who doesn't understand or who doesn't have thick enough skin, but I think it would be best, for people other than yourself, if you didn't say how great you are, and that other people are "nobody"s and will accomplish nothing in life.  

Anywhoo  ::)

Seconded.  That kind of stuff is certainly uncalled for, and I think it's a real failing of the mods not to step in.  The vast majority of us aren't going to be hurt by Internet insults, but a few will be.

You saying that I had said, repeatedly, that every Beach Boys song was great and that anyone who didn't agree wasn't a Beach Boys fan was uncalled for. Also ignorant.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on August 05, 2012, 11:15:42 PM

He called out the wrong guy.

Hardly - you're the gift that keeps on giving.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Aegir on August 05, 2012, 11:36:36 PM
You're both wrong!


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: I. Spaceman on August 06, 2012, 07:03:43 AM

He called out the wrong guy.

Hardly - you're the gift that keeps on giving.

More than you know, Ben.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on August 06, 2012, 01:25:12 PM
Quote
That kind of stuff is certainly uncalled for, and I think it's a real failing of the mods not to step in.

You're right. I missed this as I was at a wake yesterday and a funeral today, and I honestly didn't expect this nonsense to be the first thing I'd read. Life's too short for this kind of garbage.

One more outburst like this gets a ban. This is some repugnant junior high school fuckery, and I'm quite tired of it.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 on August 06, 2012, 01:35:25 PM
Back to the point of the discussion...I actually prefer SDSN to Today. The best tracks on Today are superior to the best tracks on SDSN (minus 'Let Him Run Wild', which to me is one of the best, if not THE best, cut the band did prior to Pet Sounds), but I'm not a fan of 'In the Back of My Mind' vocally, and the talk track sucks. Plus, 'Don't Hurt My Little Sister' happens to be my least favorite BB song ever. I know a lot of people like it. but I hate it. Just my opinion.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: runnersdialzero on August 06, 2012, 04:08:00 PM
The fact that Amusement Parks USA has never graced any of the 10001 compilations the band has put out, or can hardly be considered a staple of their live shows, must show that the band don't exactly rate it in their upper echelon of songs.

"Cabin Essence" has never been played live and never appeared on a compilation. What a flaming pile of shit imo.

Well, Cabinessence is on the GV box so not strictly true.

Exactly. Whilst Amusements Parks USA isn't. Also Brian has played Cabinessance live in his solo shows.

You get my point, though. There were plenty of gems that the band have totally ignored as far as compilation and setlist appearances. The band choosing to exclude a song from things really doesn't hold any water.

"Cabin Essence" was mostly if not exclusively played during Smile sets, though, which doesn't really count. Nor does inclusion on a huge, career spanning box set as part of a series of Smile recordings, either. imo.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Mike's Beard on August 06, 2012, 10:51:40 PM
Point taken.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: bluesno1fann on February 08, 2014, 02:07:55 AM
Gotta be Today!

Summer Days is quite good too, but compared to Today! it just falls short.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Ovi on February 08, 2014, 02:19:47 AM
Brace yourselves, the "twofer poll" threads resurrection is coming!  


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: bluesno1fann on February 08, 2014, 02:32:52 AM
Brace yourselves, the "twofer poll" threads resurrection is coming!  

Just spreading the twofer polls to a whole new generation of members!  :-D :lol

Though I noticed that Surfin' Safari, Surfin' USA, Still Cruisin', Summer In Paradise, and TWGMTR was never done.
Maybe Buddhahat would consider doing them now!


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: retrokid67 on February 08, 2014, 08:57:56 PM
listening to the cd in the car today I found myself listening to the "Today!" tracks more so yea "Today!" is definitely one of my favorites  :-D


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on February 09, 2014, 12:48:49 AM
Brace yourselves, the "twofer poll" threads resurrection is coming!  

Just spreading the twofer polls to a whole new generation of members!  :-D :lol

Though I noticed that Surfin' Safari, Surfin' USA, Still Cruisin', Summer In Paradise, and TWGMTR was never done.
Maybe Buddhahat would consider doing them now!

Haha! Why not? Give me a day or so and I'll start them up again for those final few, although where there weren't true twofers to poll I did use a bit of artistic license with the couplings folks so might have to throw some BW solo efforts in there too somewhere.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: bluesno1fann on February 09, 2014, 12:55:23 AM
Brace yourselves, the "twofer poll" threads resurrection is coming!  

Just spreading the twofer polls to a whole new generation of members!  :-D :lol

Though I noticed that Surfin' Safari, Surfin' USA, Still Cruisin', Summer In Paradise, and TWGMTR was never done.
Maybe Buddhahat would consider doing them now!

Haha! Why not? Give me a day or so and I'll start them up again for those final few, although where there weren't true twofers to poll I did use a bit of artistic license with the couplings folks so might have to throw some BW solo efforts in there too somewhere.

That's great news! I'm assuming you're going to have to pair up TWGMTR to a solo album, most likely a Brian solo album?


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on February 09, 2014, 02:47:00 AM
Brace yourselves, the "twofer poll" threads resurrection is coming!  

Just spreading the twofer polls to a whole new generation of members!  :-D :lol

Though I noticed that Surfin' Safari, Surfin' USA, Still Cruisin', Summer In Paradise, and TWGMTR was never done.
Maybe Buddhahat would consider doing them now!

Haha! Why not? Give me a day or so and I'll start them up again for those final few, although where there weren't true twofers to poll I did use a bit of artistic license with the couplings folks so might have to throw some BW solo efforts in there too somewhere.

That's great news! I'm assuming you're going to have to pair up TWGMTR to a solo album, most likely a Brian solo album?

Yeah I think so. Most likely That Lucky Old Sun? I mean the Gershwin and Disney albums are nearer in release date but the most recent 'beloved' BW solo album I'd argue was That Lucky Old Sun what with Midnight's Another Day an' all so maybe will make for a fairer fight!


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: bluesno1fann on February 09, 2014, 02:58:52 AM
Brace yourselves, the "twofer poll" threads resurrection is coming!  

Just spreading the twofer polls to a whole new generation of members!  :-D :lol

Though I noticed that Surfin' Safari, Surfin' USA, Still Cruisin', Summer In Paradise, and TWGMTR was never done.
Maybe Buddhahat would consider doing them now!

Haha! Why not? Give me a day or so and I'll start them up again for those final few, although where there weren't true twofers to poll I did use a bit of artistic license with the couplings folks so might have to throw some BW solo efforts in there too somewhere.

That's great news! I'm assuming you're going to have to pair up TWGMTR to a solo album, most likely a Brian solo album?

Yeah I think so. Most likely That Lucky Old Sun? I mean the Gershwin and Disney albums are nearer in release date but the most recent 'beloved' BW solo album I'd argue was That Lucky Old Sun what with Midnight's Another Day an' all so maybe will make for a fairer fight!

I thought the Gershwin album is considered 'beloved'. But I guess it seems more appropriate in pairing up the Gershwin album and the Disney album because they're both cover albums and made under Walt Disney Records


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: buddhahat on February 09, 2014, 07:37:35 AM

I thought the Gershwin album is considered 'beloved'.

Yes it probably is. When it came out I think I enjoyed it more than TLOS actually but I guess as the latter is largely BW originals it would be a better companion to TWGMTR. Shame he can't just hurry up and release the new one - I've heard it's going to be better than Pet Sounds & Smile!


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: JK on April 02, 2014, 04:44:14 AM
In my usual annoying fashion I'll give Summer Days my vote as it's lagging behind. Actually I've been revisiting it recently. Like 20/20 it's a patchwork quilt of an album but IMO holds together better. In the words of the late Paul Williams, lotsa good stuff.


Title: Re: Twofer polls #8: Today! vs Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on October 12, 2015, 11:40:25 PM
Summer Days is a slap dash effort compared to Today's refined brilliance. Today and Pet Sounds are Brian's best completed works. Summer Days is the awkward valley overshadowed by two peaks.