The Smiley Smile Message Board

Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 03:39:01 PM



Title: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 03:39:01 PM
This is my attempt, in a single post, to outline my thoughts on Brian's role as the author (or auteur) behind his records -- that is, his work as a producer and arranger -- over the last 25 years or so. This is one of the board's new favorite topics. How much has Brian done on this record? Is he really the producer? Etc.

This topic interests me greatly because I've followed Brian's solo career very closely. I haven't just bought the records. I've read the interviews (and conducted some myself). I've watched the shows. I've read the books. And, to me, there are clear trends and indications of Brian's continued role as an auteur, although considerably complicated by his illness and the changing state of the record industry.

I've written at length on this topic before, but I figured that I owed the board a fuller accounting of my views, along with relevant links.

----------

Part One: Examples

Before we can talk about Brian's work as a producer or arranger on his recent (largely solo) work, it's important to establish a baseline. We need to know what a current-day Brian Wilson solo production sounds like. If we don't know this, or don't have a rough idea, then everything else falls apart.

There are actually several, relatively recent, examples of songs that are more or less completely arranged and produced by Brian Wilson.

Everything I Need (1996, first version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRc_ao2NrIk

On Christmas Day (2000, online single)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quM23zl4McM

Message Man (2006, TLOS bonus track)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6rFh8OyHfg

I'm Into Something Good (2006, TLOS bonus track)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bspy0vlTqQ

There are a number of others (The Christmas Song, Just Like Me and You, Heaven), but this is a relatively representative sampling. I think it's important to note something about all of these productions. They are sometimes underlying great songs and vocal arrangements (Message Man most notably). But they are pretty laid back. They are not especially avant garde or elaborate. They are basically beds for vocals and cool songs, with occasional parts of interest (mostly bass lines) popping out.

Also, the relative abundance of these tracks shows that Brian can, indeed, produce a song on his own when the mood strikes him. He still has the capacity. What these tracks also show, however, is that Brian produces relatively spare and simple tracks when left to his own devices. They are charming, yes. Fans would love to have a full album of such productions. But they are also modest.

----------

Part Two: Re-productions

It's instructive to hear what happens when Brian's relatively simple solo productions are blown out for major label release. Here, for example, is Joe Thomas's take on Everything I Need. Brian's track is still in there, but it's covered by a layer of overdubs. While stylistically far different, Thomas also makes the track more dynamic.

Everything I Need (1997, second version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lsx7YrCqU0

Next, we have the two versions of Good Kind of Love. Here, the basic arrangement remains, but much of the instrumentation has been replaced (strings and horns in place of synths), and guitars and basses have a bit more to do. You can also hear the effect of replacing a wall-of-Brians with his backing band's voices.

Good Kind of Love (2006 Bennett version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0zrvCWJZQ0

Good Kind of Love (2008 TLOS version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbiYVahVKwU

Finally, an example of this from BW's very first solo album. The first version of Melt Away seems to be a demo, with an alternate lyric and wall-of-synths backing. The second is the far more refined and arranged version from the album itself.

Melt Away (1988 alternate)
http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/brian-wilson/id160379936 (track 19)

Melt Away (1988 final)
http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/brian-wilson/id160379936 (track 3)

There are other examples of this too. There's an early version of Your Imagination floating around, and all of the TLOS demos circulate. Likewise for the 88 album, which includes a lot of the demos in its 2000 reissue. I'm not necessarily making a point in sharing these, at least right now. It's just that it's important to note that every reworking of a BW production or demo is not necessarily making it worse -- at least a couple of these songs were made better with the extra work.

----------

Part Three: Brian Wilson Didn't Produce These Songs ... or Did He?

There are spots in Brian's solo catalog where his contributions are murkier. The entire "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" album, for instance, was basically produced by Don Was (Brian had a say in song selection). However, if you listen to the Was version of Melt Away, it's hard not to hear Brian's spirit animating the final result, probably because it's a loose adaptation of the original arrangement.

Melt Away (1995 remake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilpczA9LWlc

From a different direction, the song Dream Angel from Imagination seems unquestionably naff, animated by Joe Thomas and Jim Peterik, with Brian simply along for the ride. However, if you listen closely, you'll hear an elaborate, Darlin'-style horn arrangement buried in the mix of the song. Was this Brian's doing? If it was Joe's, why would it have been mixed so low? Whatever the case, that horn arrangement makes the song more than lite metal.

Dream Angel (1998, Imagination)
http://itunes.apple.com/ie/album/imagination/id30645706 (Track 6)

Likewise, the song Soul Searchin' was almost entirely written (and one suspects produced) by Andy Paley. It was crafted expressly for Carl Wilson. And yet Brian was enthused about the song during its writing, going as far as buying a plane ticket to London to follow Andy and finish working on the song. So Brian's enthusiasm and his brother's voice clearly served as inspiration -- yet the song itself likely isn't his work.

In these three cases, you have to ask what it means to be Brian Wilson, as a collaborator and performer, what the credits imply, and what they actually mean. It's complicated. Does serving as an inspiration mean you deserve a production or writing credit? If not, what entitles you to one? And if Brian didn't write or arrange these songs, does that make them worse? If he did, does that make them better?

---------

Part Four: The Problems of Production

What is a record producer? This is a simple question, yet a hard one to answer. There are many kinds, from hands-on technicians who also have great musical knowledge (George Martin) to visionaries who can't actually arrange or write much music but who know what they want to hear used professional songwriters and arrangers in pursuit of their grandiose goals (Phil Spector).

Brian as a record producer fell between those extremes. He didn't have great technical knowledge, and he didn't have the musical education of a George Martin. But he did write songs, did play an instrument, and had ideas for parts. He didn't style himself a Svengali for other artists (although he tried) like Spector, although he tended to know the sound he was striving for. He did more than many producers, but he was also less specialized.

And the production skills he learned -- leading a roomful of musicians to produce great takes -- were effective mostly in the '60s. By the '70s, the way records were made had changed. And it only got more extreme as time passed. Records were assembled, piece by piece and part by part. Not only did a mentally ill Brian not have patience for this, it wasn't how he had ever worked.

So the very notion of a Brian Wilson production credit -- outside of the mono, live-in-the-room mid-60s aesthetic -- is profoundly problematic. Quite simply: What does his kind of producer do in the multitrack, protools, sampling age? In some of his records, he has ignored the problem by recording as he did in the '60s. In others, he has embraced new technology by allowing knowledgeable co-producers to guide the newfangled process. Sometimes he's split the difference.

(And then there's the problem that Brian seldom produced entirely on his own. He himself said that Chuck Britz co-produced many of the group's classic tracks -- and you can hear Chuck doing so on session tapes. You had the session musicians -- or the Beach Boys -- pitching in on arrangements. And after Smile broke down, Carl essentially started co-producing most of the group's output, overdubbing or remixing Brian's first drafts.)

There was a brief period where Brian consolidated all power -- the end of Pet Sounds, Good Vibes and Smile -- but the difficult outcome of that period seems to have soured him on handling every last bit of production.

----------

Part Five: Context Conundrums

Here, I'll just reproduce an earlier post I made about the nature of Brian's instrumental arrangements. Suffice to say, they are not exactly consistent, and there's a very good reason for that.

"Brian has never -- as far as I can tell -- been an incredibly specific arranger (with the possible exception of portions of Pet Sounds and Smile). That is, he's not a trained orchestrator. His arrangements are generally based on his piano demos, with a key extra part or two. The rest of the backing tracks are developed by the session players, in collaboration with BW, and on their own. This was true in the '60s and in the 2010s. (Witness the staccato break in GOK, for example.)

"Thus, a lot of the BW "sound" is simply based on who he's working with. When he worked with the other BBs in the studio, the tracks had a garage-band sound. When he worked with the Wrecking Crew guys, his records sound like '60s, Spector-styled classics -- that's what that group produced. When he was on his own, on Love You or the TLOS demos, he produces very stripped-down tracks -- the demo-style piano and a few extra parts, as I mentioned. When he's with AC players, the tunes have an AC sound. When he's with his band, you get their slightly retro but modern power-pop effect. With Paley, you get full-blown '60s nostalgia.

"We've really done ourselves a disservice, I think, in thinking about BW as some all-encompassing creative genius when it comes to backing tracks. He has great ideas, and he has a gift for songwriting and vocal arranging. But the instrumental tracks are really the most collaborative part of his output -- and it seems like it's always been so, in one way or another."

----------

Part Six: The Three Kinds of Albums

Taking all of the above in mind, I see Brian's solo career as including three specific kinds of albums.

1.) The elaborated demo albums. These include Brian Wilson (88), Imagination and That Lucky Old Sun. In each of these cases, Brian basically produced a full version of the album before the album was made. That is, he recorded demos, he laid down rough tracks, he sketched his ideas. The "co-producers" of those albums then came in and used those demos and rough tracks as the basis for the final albums. Sometimes (as in Imagination) the finished product ended up sounding quite different than a solo BW production would have, even though that extra gloss was added with Brian's blessing. Sometimes (as in TLOS), the finished album is a slightly slicker take on BW's demos, but still retaining many of their appealing qualities.

2.) The honorary credit albums. These include I Just Wasn't Made for These Times, the live albums, and Brian Wilson Presents Smile. In all of these cases, Brian's involvement with the actual production of the released album -- regardless of his credit -- was likely minimal. However, in all of these cases, the finished product was based on songs and productions he had created previously. The ethics of such credits can be debated, although ultimately Brian surely deserves recognition for his role in generating the source material.

3.) The full-band albums. These include What I Really Want for Christmas and the Gershwin and Disney albums. In these records, Brian works in a method similar to his mid-60s productions -- a roomful of musicians is assembled and records the tracks live. In all of these cases, the band itself makes a difference. One can easily imagine the players tossing in arrangement ideas. However, Brian personally prepared chord charts for the Christmas album, and he and Paul collaborated closely in preparations for the Gershwin record (Brian sequenced the album before it was recorded, apparently, making his own mix tape). The credits on these albums should probably read: "Produced by BW and the BW band." That being said, I'm not sure that's fundamentally different from how he worked with his trusted session musicians in the 60s.

Gettin' In Over My Head is the odd man out here -- it falls in the first and third categories -- but perhaps it's better not to think too much about it.

----------

Part Seven: Closing Thoughts

In this piece I've tried to outline how Brian still produces records. Basically, while he's capable of doing it on his own, his solo productions have tended to be minimalist. Full-blown record production poses challenges because of the nature of the modern recording environment, and he and his collaborators have tried various ways of working around those issues.

I personally believe that Brian is an interested and engaged participant in the production of his own albums, although to varying degrees (as explained in the three types of album section). I think he has taken a larger role in the production of most of his solo material than people think, although that role can sometimes be intangible (see part three).

As for what Brian Wilson wants to express through his music -- I don't know. I can only listen to what he puts out. And his music, despite the changing trappings, has remained pretty consistent, an outpouring of a unique and pained soul, yet one who still rejoices in life and love. He also craves approval -- a craving that can be expressed through a willingness to play along with modern production methods, to write with faddish collaborators, and to release albums with song titles like "Spring Vacation."

But I don't think you can separate this artful self-expression from this craving for popularity and approval. Both of them make Brian Wilson tick, and both of them are expressed not only in his songwriting, but in the way he presents his music to the public. Both 50 years ago and today.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Sam_BFC on May 23, 2012, 04:23:44 PM
Good analysis!

Sorry to veer slightly off topic, but MAN Everything I Need could have been so great IMO.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 04:26:08 PM
Good analysis!

Sorry to veer slightly off topic, but MAN Everything I Need could have been so great IMO.

I wonder about that tune. It has potential, but I wasn't persuaded by Brian's production of it or Joe's. Someone, somewhere, has to have a better idea of how to produce that song.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: 18thofMay on May 23, 2012, 04:33:16 PM
Everything I Need (1996, first version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRc_ao2NrIk

What a great song


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 23, 2012, 05:35:12 PM
Great essay Wirestone. Finding the TLOS demos having Brian still being great at music production.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on May 23, 2012, 07:21:47 PM
Just gotta say, the "Going Home" demo sounds JUST like love you.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Chris Brown on May 23, 2012, 07:49:20 PM
I really enjoyed reading that Wirestone, thanks for posting! 

It's tough to find anything to add/critique, but one thing I will say is that, in my opinion, modern production techniques aren't as much to blame for Brian taking a less "hands-on" approach to making records.  Rather, I just don't think he has the energy or attention span to do it anymore.  He really hasn't in 40 years or so. 

If you place 23 year old Brian into 2012, with all it's technology and a completely different recording process, he would still be able to turn out complex and involved productions, just like in '66-'67.  The greatness of those records was due, in large part, to his ambition and work ethic at the time.  He was happy to obsess over every aspect of the production, and it showed in the final products.

The guy is nearly 70 years old though - who wants to spend their golden years hunkered down at a piano arranging a dozen different parts and working for hours on end in a studio to perfect a track?  He's been there, done that - it's easier for him to let others do the heavy lifting on the more involved productions.  When he does produce on his own, he doesn't mess around with complex arrangements because he'd rather bang out some piano track, add a few little touches, and be done with it.  This method perfectly suits where he's at at this point in his life.  He still gets the joy of producing (which I don't think will ever leave him), just without spending so much time that he gets bored and loses interest.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 07:59:59 PM
I really enjoyed reading that Wirestone, thanks for posting!  

It's tough to find anything to add/critique, but one thing I will say is that, in my opinion, modern production techniques aren't as much to blame for Brian taking a less "hands-on" approach to making records.  Rather, I just don't think he has the energy or attention span to do it anymore.  He really hasn't in 40 years or so.  

If you place 23 year old Brian into 2012, with all it's technology and a completely different recording process, he would still be able to turn out complex and involved productions, just like in '66-'67.  The greatness of those records was due, in large part, to his ambition and work ethic at the time.  He was happy to obsess over every aspect of the production, and it showed in the final products.

The guy is nearly 70 years old though - who wants to spend their golden years hunkered down at a piano arranging a dozen different parts and working for hours on end in a studio to perfect a track?  He's been there, done that - it's easier for him to let others do the heavy lifting on the more involved productions.  When he does produce on his own, he doesn't mess around with complex arrangements because he'd rather bang out some piano track, add a few little touches, and be done with it.  This method perfectly suits where he's at at this point in his life.  He still gets the joy of producing (which I don't think will ever leave him), just without spending so much time that he gets bored and loses interest.

That is an interesting point. And it's hard to say either way!

I wonder, though. Brian was in his 30s when Love You was recorded. He was, by modern standards, a young guy. And yet the production is essentially demo-quality. He pushed himself a bit more with Adult Child, but only managed a handful of the big band-style tracks.

My theory is that his short attention span (which he arguably had as a young guy too -- why did Pet Sounds have such a rushed mix, for instance?) was uniquely suited for recording with a big group of musicians who could give him immediate feedback. When he was forced to slow down, he couldn't keep track.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 23, 2012, 08:02:42 PM
I wonder, though. Brian was in his 30s when Love You was recorded. He was, by modern standards, a young guy. And yet the production is essentially demo-quality. He pushed himself a bit more with Adult Child, but only managed a handful of the big band-style tracks.

weren't several of the big band tracks produced by the guy who did the '64 christmas album arrangements? dick something. i never forget a dick.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 08:10:12 PM
I wonder, though. Brian was in his 30s when Love You was recorded. He was, by modern standards, a young guy. And yet the production is essentially demo-quality. He pushed himself a bit more with Adult Child, but only managed a handful of the big band-style tracks.

weren't several of the big band tracks produced by the guy who did the '64 christmas album arrangements? dick something. i never forget a dick.

Reynolds.  ;D

He arranged the orchestral parts, but I'm pretty sure BW still produced the tracks. Although exactly what production entails at that point gets a little hazy.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 08:29:00 PM
Here's another good example of Brian's demo-style recordings -- but dating from his mid-90s work with with Joe Thomas.

This is a version of "Let Him Run Wild" from 96 or so, with Brian on all instruments (except, presumably, the horn section).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-nEMRk1ymY&feature=related

I have a hunch that a lot of Imagination started with tracks like these, which were then replaced, piece by piece, by playing from session musicians.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on May 23, 2012, 08:35:32 PM
I personally believe that Brian is an interested and engaged participant in the production of his own albums, although to varying degrees (as explained in the three types of album section). I think he has taken a larger role in the production of most of his solo material than people think, although that role can sometimes be intangible (see part three).

Well written, thoughtful post. And, I agree with a large majority of what you wrote. Of course, I have to find SOMETHING to take exception with! :-D

So, I highlighted the most basic, easily debatable point. And the disagreement is basically in the numbers. Percentages. I probably think that Brian's involvement in his solo recordings is less than what you think. You think it is a larger percentage, I think it is a lower percentage. However, we both arrived at our beliefs the same way - through the books, interviews, concerts, and, of course, the records. I'll add a more intangible reason - feel. Did you ever feel that you majored in Brian Wilson. That you took all the courses, studied, took the tests, and graduated. You THINK you know Brian Wilson when you hear him. Heck, you've been studying him for decades. Therefore, you also feel you know when it is NOT Brian Wilson. It just doesn't FEEL like something he would write, arrange, and produce. Speculation? Absolutely.

I'll state my reason and get out. When Brian "came back" in 1976, he lost something. Some of "it" was still there, but he lost something. When he resurfaced in 1983 after being treated by Landy, he lost even more. This time it seemed like a lot more. Compare the dip from 1966 to 1976 to 1986. I don't think it was a lack of motivation or a lack of effort. I won't get into AGAIN the reasons why. We know the reasons why. It's hard to admit or accept, but, in some interviews, Brian himself would be forthcoming about his issues.

"It" just wasn't there anymore and he needed others to write, arrange, and produce an album. The more help he got, the more watered down the project became. But, without that "assistance", well, I don't think Brian would've gotten a contract to record. So, I guess almost everybody is of the same mind in this regard: Some Brian Wilson is better than no Brian Wilson.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: MBE on May 23, 2012, 08:54:13 PM
I personally believe that Brian is an interested and engaged participant in the production of his own albums, although to varying degrees (as explained in the three types of album section). I think he has taken a larger role in the production of most of his solo material than people think, although that role can sometimes be intangible (see part three).

Well written, thoughtful post. And, I agree with a large majority of what you wrote. Of course, I have to find SOMETHING to take exception with! :-D

So, I highlighted the most basic, easily debatable point. And the disagreement is basically in the numbers. Percentages. I probably think that Brian's involvement in his solo recordings is less than what you think. You think it is a larger percentage, I think it is a lower percentage. However, we both arrived at our beliefs the same way - through the books, interviews, concerts, and, of course, the records. I'll add a more intangible reason - feel. Did you ever feel that you majored in Brian Wilson. That you took all the courses, studied, took the tests, and graduated. You THINK you know Brian Wilson when you hear him. Heck, you've been studying him for decades. Therefore, you also feel you know when it is NOT Brian Wilson. It just doesn't FEEL like something he would write, arrange, and produce. Speculation? Absolutely.

I'll state my reason and get out. When Brian "came back" in 1976, he lost something. Some of "it" was still there, but he lost something. When he resurfaced in 1983 after being treated by Landy, he lost even more. This time it seemed like a lot more. Compare the dip from 1966 to 1976 to 1986. I don't think it was a lack of motivation or a lack of effort. I won't get into AGAIN the reasons why. We know the reasons why. It's hard to admit or accept, but, in some interviews, Brian himself would be forthcoming about his issues.

"It" just wasn't there anymore and he needed others to write, arrange, and produce an album. The more help he got, the more watered down the project became. But, without that "assistance", well, I don't think Brian would've gotten a contract to record. So, I guess almost everybody is of the same mind in this regard: Some Brian Wilson is better than no Brian Wilson.
Honestly it is really hard to get the lowdown on the solo albums. Beach Boys albums aren't half as hard to figure out. That said I like both this post and Wirestone's. I hope that in the future the real story of Brian's later work does get told. I do cover it best I can in my book, but I had to go with my gut a lot. Why? Simply because nobody who would know the truth behind the "Brian Is Back" PR campains that accompanies every one of his albums wanted to hurt Brian or damage their own careers. I basically feel that it's in the performance. If Brian digs something it's pretty easy to tell. 


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Dunderhead on May 23, 2012, 09:07:43 PM
Glad to see you finally get around to posting this wirestone. Well worth the wait.

I have some quibbles of course. Firstly, just some minor pedantry. You imply that Brian, unlike Spector, could play an instrument. If this isn't what you meant to say, then feel free to disregard this, but Phil Spector did play Jazz guitar very well from what I understand and did make serious contributions to the song writing. At least that's what I've heard, or at least remember hearing. I believe the Wall of Pain biography has a good deal on this.

With that out of the way, I don't think I can agree with you about Brian's arrangement being mostly collaborative. You're right that Brian did not study counterpoint academically, and depending on who you ask, couldn't write his music out. The Pet Sounds Sessions has a good example of Brian's method though, in the "Don't Talk Vocal Snippet", where it sounds like Brian sang out all the parts that he wanted the strings to play.

He frequently tells the percussion players exactly what he wants them to play on the PSS and TSS. I think that you're right, there was a role for collaboration, and session musicians did contribute ideas and sometimes improvise. That's an important part of the final music, however, I think Brian really was a "genius" when it came to harmony. And not just vocal harmony. The tags on SMiLE show some absolutely superb examples of harmony.

Sheriff John Stone makes another good point, about feeling whether or not Brian did something. The wrecking crew did after all record on a number of albums, and sometimes put out solo albums or albums where they were given a free hand musically. "The Wichita Train Whistle Sings", for example, is nowhere near the quality of Pet Sounds. Brian's harmonies are very unique, and even though there was an element of collaboration, I think Brian knew what all the parts would be in any given song. I distinctly recall an interview with Brian as well where he said that he arranged each song on Pet Sounds while he composed them. One of the only arrangements I can think of from that era that never really felt like Brian to me is the string arrangement on LGAFA.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 09:09:23 PM
Sheriff: I can't be intellectually honest without acknowledging that you may well be right. And I think what you say -- the notion of there being less and less Brian "there" after each comeback -- is a disquieting possibility that a lot of us have had to grapple with. I will say that the TLOS bonus tracks (and demos) ultimately brought me to the opposite conclusion. But it's certainly not conclusive -- and at a certain level it can't be, given that we don't know what's rattling around inside Brian's head.

Mike: I think that's as good a measure as any, which is why I've tended to accept the Gershwin and Disney albums as canon, simply because he's singing so well on them. (Better on the former than latter, though.) As to the truth behind the solo records, I have long thought that Paley was exiled because he was a little too forthcoming on the amount each contributed to their collaborations -- and the percentages were not always flattering to Brian.

And ultimately, on top of everything, we are dealing with a man who is mentally ill and often incapable of handling his day-to-day affairs. This makes ascribing "authorship" even more difficult because it's entirely possible that one day Brian is barking orders and engaged and the next day withdrawn and practically comatose. It must make recording an album with him difficult, to say the least.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Glad to see you finally get around to posting this wirestone. Well worth the wait.

This isn't actually the post I promised you, believe it or not. This is just a diversion on the road to that.  :-\

I have some quibbles of course. Firstly, just some minor pedantry. You imply that Brian, unlike Spector, could play an instrument. If this isn't what you meant to say, then feel free to disregard this, but Phil Spector did play Jazz guitar very well from what I understand and did make serious contributions to the song writing. At least that's what I've heard, or at least remember hearing. I believe the Wall of Pain biography has a good deal on this.

I think you're right about this, and I've revised my first post. Thanks for the correction.

He frequently tells the percussion players exactly what he wants them to play on the PSS and TSS. I think that you're right, there was a role for collaboration, and session musicians did contribute ideas and sometimes improvise. That's an important part of the final music, however, I think Brian really was a "genius" when it came to harmony. And not just vocal harmony. The tags on SMiLE show some absolutely superb examples of harmony.

If you notice, in my original post, I do make an exception for some of Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations and Smile. To me, it feels like Brian was working at a different level on these productions than he did before or after. He was at the very peak of his hit-making power and could indulge himself. He was capable of dictating a great number of parts, and he had very precise ideas. But I ultimately think this level of creative engagement wasn't sustainable -- he needed a lower-key, more collaborative environment for his own sanity.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: MBE on May 23, 2012, 09:25:04 PM
Sheriff: I can't be intellectually honest without acknowledging that you may well be right. And I think what you say -- the notion of there being less and less Brian "there" after each comeback -- is a disquieting possibility that a lot of us have had to grapple with. I will say that the TLOS bonus tracks (and demos) ultimately brought me to the opposite conclusion. But it's certainly not conclusive -- and at a certain level it can't be, given that we don't know what's rattling around inside Brian's head.

Mike: I think that's as good a measure as any, which is why I've tended to accept the Gershwin and Disney albums as canon, simply because he's singing so well on them. (Better on the former than latter, though.) As to the truth behind the solo records, I have long thought that Paley was exiled because he was a little too forthcoming on the amount each contributed to their collaborations -- and the percentages were not always flattering to Brian.

And ultimately, on top of everything, we are dealing with a man who is mentally ill and often incapable of handling his day-to-day affairs. This makes ascribing "authorship" even more difficult because it's entirely possible that one day Brian is barking orders and engaged and the next day withdrawn and practically comatose. It must make recording an album with him difficult, to say the least.

Well put. Brian's mental problems began early, but he never needed a "minder" before Murry died. David Sandler has talked about the ease in which he worked with Brian to give one example. It does make it hard to gage just how much he's done since then, people tend to be more forthcoming on The Beach Boys than on his solo career. Sadly it makes it that much harder for all of us to assess the solo work properly. That Brian has been a part of quality (and some which were not so good) albums in his solo career seems to not be enough for the publicists to sell them on. The thing they don't get is that Brian doesn't have to be sold to the people who buy these albums. I feel people who buy Brian Wilson albums know the story, know that he can't be who he was in his twenties, and accept anything he is a part of with that in mind. It doesn't mean the music is always good, but when Brian makes an effort I am sure we are all proud of him no matter how "in charge" he is.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 09:35:02 PM
My outlook on Brian was revolutionized when I saw him live in the fall of 2009. During a random greatest hits tour, he was more engaged, funny, and musical than I'd ever seen him. He played audible piano throughout the two shows I saw. He made random, silly jokes. He made the band play "Monster Mash." He was utterly and completely there.

The band was as shocked as anyone. And while I watched this happen, I thought -- how sad and difficult it must be to be Brian Wilson. To have this capacity to be a musical firebrand, a real force, and to know that you have it -- and yet not be able to do it for months, sometimes years at a time. To know you have it within yourself, yet to know that your illness basically snuffs it out a large percentage of the time. You never know when it will come back, and you don't know when it will go away.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 23, 2012, 09:36:56 PM
Here's a thought that popped in my mind while reading this topic: what if Brian Wilson wrote a song like "God Only Knows" now? What would the finished product end up sounding like? Would we recognize the genius as much? Listen to "Keep an Eye On Summer" and "Let Him Run Wild" on Imagination. What if that was the first time you heard those songs?


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 23, 2012, 09:38:19 PM
Here's a thought that popped in my mind while reading this topic: what if Brian Wilson wrote a song like "God Only Knows" now? What would the finished product end up sounding like? Would we recognize the genius as much? Listen to "Keep an Eye On Summer" and "Let Him Run Wild" on Imagination. What if that was the first time you heard those songs?

We would think that Joe Thomas had written them!  ;D


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: MBE on May 23, 2012, 09:42:03 PM
My outlook on Brian was revolutionized when I saw him live in the fall of 2009. During a random greatest hits tour, he was more engaged, funny, and musical than I'd ever seen him. He played audible piano throughout the two shows I saw. He made random, silly jokes. He made the band play "Monster Mash." He was utterly and completely there.

The band was as shocked as anyone. And while I watched this happen, I thought -- how sad and difficult it must be to be Brian Wilson. To have this capacity to be a musical firebrand, a real force, and to know that you have it -- and yet not be able to do it for months, sometimes years at a time. To know you have it within yourself, yet to know that your illness basically snuffs it out a large percentage of the time. You never know when it will come back, and you don't know when it will go away.
See that's the thing. Monday night he was there fully and came across as the leader. He has it in him that much I know.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Camus on May 23, 2012, 09:50:40 PM
There was an interview somewhere with I think Danny Hutton where he said he kicked out Brian and Landy from his studio during recording for the 1988 album.  Something along the lines that why was Brian letting Landy call the shots arrangement wise as Landy clearly had no idea what he was doing.

I also remember reading an interview from somewhere who said if Brian was left to his own devices in the studio, the arrangements would come out sounding like Sweet Insanity, the inference being that the arrangements for Sweet Insanity is how Brian would arrange if he solely produced himself.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 23, 2012, 10:06:11 PM
Go to 2:24 of this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKRbQpfu4p4&feature=related). That's definitely a Brian arrangement.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Dunderhead on May 23, 2012, 10:24:47 PM
My outlook on Brian was revolutionized when I saw him live in the fall of 2009. During a random greatest hits tour, he was more engaged, funny, and musical than I'd ever seen him. He played audible piano throughout the two shows I saw. He made random, silly jokes. He made the band play "Monster Mash." He was utterly and completely there.

The band was as shocked as anyone. And while I watched this happen, I thought -- how sad and difficult it must be to be Brian Wilson. To have this capacity to be a musical firebrand, a real force, and to know that you have it -- and yet not be able to do it for months, sometimes years at a time. To know you have it within yourself, yet to know that your illness basically snuffs it out a large percentage of the time. You never know when it will come back, and you don't know when it will go away.

That's a touching sentiment wirestone, I don't think anyone could have said it better.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Dunderhead on May 23, 2012, 10:33:53 PM
Here's a thought that popped in my mind while reading this topic: what if Brian Wilson wrote a song like "God Only Knows" now? What would the finished product end up sounding like? Would we recognize the genius as much? Listen to "Keep an Eye On Summer" and "Let Him Run Wild" on Imagination. What if that was the first time you heard those songs?

What's strange is, I think in 1966 and 1967 production *was* part of the arrangement he had in mind. The only way I can think to describe Brian's production is as having meta-harmonic structures. Is that a thing? Production is part of the harmony. The wall of sound is, in a way, a radical extension of the traditional idea of harmony.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 23, 2012, 11:24:48 PM
I'll add a more intangible reason - feel. Did you ever feel that you majored in Brian Wilson. That you took all the courses, studied, took the tests, and graduated. You THINK you know Brian Wilson when you hear him. Heck, you've been studying him for decades. Therefore, you also feel you know when it is NOT Brian Wilson. It just doesn't FEEL like something he would write, arrange, and produce. Speculation? Absolutely.

This touches on what I wrote in the other thread (and was chastised for) -- that most of us as educated fans can identify a BW production when we hear one.

The problem with this sort of academic approach is that you could essentially 'prove' that he produced or didn't produce just about anything he's ever released. Production is a vague thing, but in the case of very distinct producers such as Phil Spector, Brian Wilson or Lee Hazlewood (or even someone more modern such as Nigel Godrich), there is a specific sound, feel and energy that emphasizes certain feelings. FEELINGS is an important term here. BW is the master of the heart of record production; there is no one like him in this way and there will never be another.

I feel that Brian Wilson's unique flair for production has been missing from any full album project released since Love You.  And was missing from many outstanding Beach Boys albums prior to that as well (Holland minus Funky Pretty and the fairy tale, most of 20/20).  This is not a matter of good Beach Boys albums vs. bad Beach Boys albums; I'm talking about identifiable Brian Wilson productions.

And there is a difference between simply 'recording' something and 'producing' it. I believe that most of the solo material was essentially just 'recorded', and a variety of musicians, engineers and outside help ultimately produced or co-produced by default.

You can say you want about the Paley sessions, but BW's magic touch is all over them. And his singing sounds heartfelt and enthusiastic, which I feel supports his belief in the material. If Paley was ultimately the producer, so be it. But I don't think that was the case.  And that original 'Everything I Need' does indeed feel like an authentic BW production.  And also sounds quite a bit like the Paley material.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 23, 2012, 11:46:30 PM
Found this Carol Kaye interview while researching a bit about the recording:

Q:  When you did the session for Everything I Need on The Wilsons album, was it done the live way? What were your emotions, working with Brian again?

Carol:  It was very emotional to see Brian, here we all were, joking, saying silly things to keep from getting too emotional -- he looked great, we all felt great, almost too much like a party tho', we finally settled in to get some work done, and of course it was all "live" for the basic rhythm track. Tommy Morgan was there tho' at the laying down of the basic track so he did overdub, but the feelings of all of us were there with him, so that's all I saw and then I had to leave for the long drive home - it felt good.

I was living far away at that time (am in the LA area now of course).  It was a great feeling on that track, maybe a hit, but certainly a top 20 thing that was somehow diluted with later overdubs by another person unfortunately.  Brian was in complete control for that basic track, and his stamp was definitely there, we loved it, he loved it, his mother and his wife loved it, Tony Asher loved it, etc.

Q:  Hal Blaine has also said the same thing about the track Brian recorded being really dynamite, but diluted somewhere along the line. Still a great song though.

Carol:  Well, I don't think it would have been quite a No. 1 hit like Hal has stated, but it certainly could have done something nice on the charts for his daughters if there weren't any dilutional add-ons that were done. Brian should have been in charge of anything that was over-dubbed on that record, not just "consulted" as he had to work with someone else's ideas of production then, just my personal feelings about it all.  It did have a nice feel.  Hal really got worked up over it all, really angry.

--

and this from Hal:

SE:   I recently spoke with Brian and I asked him if he ever thought of re- uniting the Wrecking Crew for a record.  He said that he thought it was a good idea.

HB:   Well not too long ago, that we did this song, “Everything I Need,” with his two daughters, and he called me to contract, saying to “get the guys together.”  This was about two and a half, three years ago?   we did this beautiful record with Wendy and Carnie, and Brian playing piano.  We just had an incredible day recording. Then three or four days later he called me.  I got all the strings together and we did the string overdub.  I said, “Brian, I have a hunch that this could be record of the year!  And I hope it is because I’d love to have nine, instead of eight.” And we laughed about that, and Wendy and Carnie, they were just sweethearts you know, they showed a lot of love for me.  Then I get a call from this guy who’s producing him now, it was just a work call at A & M for Brian Wilson.  I thought, ok, whatever, so I go in and here’s Brian, Wendy, Carnie, and their producer.  They said, “We’re gonna play that song you that you guys just did, ‘Everything I Need’.” I said,oh, man, I loved that song!  And they played it.  and it was gorgeous, really gorgeous.  I said, “Jesus, I love that song!”  And I sincerely meant that.   The producer told me that he’d like for me to do some more drum fills and I said, “Really!”  he said "well do you feel like you want to, or could?" and I said, if it was me, I wouldn’t touch the record -- I think it could go on the air just like that tomorrow and be a major hit.  The girls said "you know? we feel the same way, it's absolutely beautiful"  I told them that their vocals were all gorgeous, but  I'm  talking about the general picture of the track, and the strings, and everybody had done such a beautiful job . . . So [the producer] says “We thought that was the way you did records with Brian.  You’d come in a week or two later and do some  more stuff . . .”  I told him that I'd be happy to do that for you, but that I didn't think it needed anything else, but, whatever you want.   “Yeah,just play, and let's do some fills”  All of a sudden it became a f*cking drum solo, so I told them, “Look, I’ll do whatever you want.”  And I did it, you know of course, that was the end of it. And then Brian sent me the record three months later and I couldn’t believe it was the same song or the same record.  It was terrible.

SE:   Really?

HB:  It was a piece of sh*t!  This guy, whoever he was, the producer, Maybe Brian would talk about some of the wood block sounds and some of the sounds I used to do, the whole thing was covered with percussion.  It went click, boom, bang, clack, boom, bing . . .  I couldn’t believe what I was hearing!


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Dunderhead on May 24, 2012, 12:03:47 AM
I'll add a more intangible reason - feel. Did you ever feel that you majored in Brian Wilson. That you took all the courses, studied, took the tests, and graduated. You THINK you know Brian Wilson when you hear him. Heck, you've been studying him for decades. Therefore, you also feel you know when it is NOT Brian Wilson. It just doesn't FEEL like something he would write, arrange, and produce. Speculation? Absolutely.

This touches on what I wrote in the other thread (and was chastised for) -- that most of us as educated fans can identify a BW production when we hear one.

The problem with this sort of academic approach is that you could essentially 'prove' that he produced or didn't produce just about anything he's ever released. Production is a vague thing, but in the case of very distinct producers such as Phil Spector, Brian Wilson or Lee Hazlewood (or even someone more modern such as Nigel Godrich), there is a specific sound, feel and energy that emphasizes certain feelings. FEELINGS is an important term here. BW is the master of the heart of record production; there is no one like him in this way and there will never be another.

I feel that Brian Wilson's unique flair for production has been missing from any full album project released since Love You.  And was missing from many outstanding Beach Boys albums prior to that as well (Holland minus Funky Pretty and the fairy tale, most of 20/20).  This is not a matter of good Beach Boys albums vs. bad Beach Boys albums; I'm talking about identifiable Brian Wilson productions.

And there is a difference between simply 'recording' something and 'producing' it. I believe that most of the solo material was essentially just 'recorded', and a variety of musicians, engineers and outside help ultimately produced or co-produced by default.

You can say you want about the Paley sessions, but BW's magic touch is all over them. And his singing sounds heartfelt and enthusiastic, which I feel supports his belief in the material. If Paley was ultimately the producer, so be it. But I don't think that was the case.  And that original 'Everything I Need' does indeed feel like an authentic BW production.  And also sounds quite a bit like the Paley material.


My feeling exactly.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 24, 2012, 12:17:26 AM
I also remember reading an interview from somewhere who said if Brian was left to his own devices in the studio, the arrangements would come out sounding like Sweet Insanity, the inference being that the arrangements for Sweet Insanity is how Brian would arrange if he solely produced himself.

Hrm. I'm gonna grant you some time had passed, but I somehow don't see the guy who was left to his own devices in the 60s that produced all those great recordings as producing something that sounds like Sweet Insanity when left to his own devices today.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Jonathan Blum on May 24, 2012, 01:11:27 AM
I'll add a more intangible reason - feel. Did you ever feel that you majored in Brian Wilson. That you took all the courses, studied, took the tests, and graduated. You THINK you know Brian Wilson when you hear him. Heck, you've been studying him for decades. Therefore, you also feel you know when it is NOT Brian Wilson. It just doesn't FEEL like something he would write, arrange, and produce.

But what you're describing is the process of creating your own mental Brian, in your own head -- a particular image filtered through your own perceptions -- and then treating it like it's the real one's problem when he doesn't match your image.  If he doesn't match, it's not that he's a more diverse person than you thought; no, it must be down to someone else.

That's not him, it's you.

Me, I'm a writer; the feel of what I've written has changed wildly over the years, and includes some stuff that really doesn't feel like me when I think about it.  I know people have wide ranges, and can change tremendously over the years -- look at my cousin who went from acid-dropping pagan hippie to Republican Orthodox Jew.  But I wouldn't single out only one way of expressing themselves as the real one...

Cheers,
Jon Blum


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: MBE on May 24, 2012, 01:37:39 AM
I'll add a more intangible reason - feel. Did you ever feel that you majored in Brian Wilson. That you took all the courses, studied, took the tests, and graduated. You THINK you know Brian Wilson when you hear him. Heck, you've been studying him for decades. Therefore, you also feel you know when it is NOT Brian Wilson. It just doesn't FEEL like something he would write, arrange, and produce.

But what you're describing is the process of creating your own mental Brian, in your own head -- a particular image filtered through your own perceptions -- and then treating it like it's the real one's problem when he doesn't match your image.  If he doesn't match, it's not that he's a more diverse person than you thought; no, it must be down to someone else.

That's not him, it's you.

Me, I'm a writer; the feel of what I've written has changed wildly over the years, and includes some stuff that really doesn't feel like me when I think about it.  I know people have wide ranges, and can change tremendously over the years -- look at my cousin who went from acid-dropping pagan hippie to Republican Orthodox Jew.  But I wouldn't single out only one way of expressing themselves as the real one...

Cheers,
Jon Blum
I don't know about the pagen part but I have a relative that seems to be both an acid-dropping hippie and Republican Orthodox Jew! Odd isn't it?


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 06:35:43 AM
I would trust Hal and Carol on the subject more if Everything I Need's original mix was awesome. But as folks can hear, it's just not a particularly exciting track.

As for the Paley sessions -- I personally hear far more BW in BW88 and SI than in that stuff. Brian superfans like Andy's aesthetic and thus convince themselves that Brian likes it too. I'm just not sure that's true.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Runaways on May 24, 2012, 06:44:20 AM
everything i need is ok, i've only heard the demo though.  I kinda think a lot of the paley era music is very loose sounding.  like the late 60s live shows.  I'm not a big fan of the production tbh. 


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 24, 2012, 10:00:28 AM
I would trust Hal and Carol on the subject more if Everything I Need's original mix was awesome. But as folks can hear, it's just not a particularly exciting track.

As for the Paley sessions -- I personally hear far more BW in BW88 and SI than in that stuff. Brian superfans like Andy's aesthetic and thus convince themselves that Brian likes it too. I'm just not sure that's true.

The original "Everything I Need" track is brilliant in my opinion, a real classic.  I'm not certain I would call it a demo ... more like a mix-in-progress.  Everything is there on the original, it just needs a final mix and it's perfect.  Hal & Carol are totally right on that.

Same thing with the Paley tracks.  The thing that I don't get is that you used 'Everything I Need' as an example of of an actual, true-blue BW production. Yet, you claim the Paley stuff is Paley re-creating Brian. To my ears, "Everything I Need" sounds pretty similar to the Paley stuff.

And you also say it's not 'particularly exciting'. Not only do I disagree 100%, but I think it's important to release legitimate BW productions, warts and all (they used to call it 'character'). What's the point if it's watered down and doctored up to be deemed 'good enough' for the masses? What is going on here? It's just like an 'F-You' to the Beach Boys' and Brian's legacy. What would Dennis say about everything that has been released since the '80s? What the Beach Boys and the BW solo releases have been missing since DW passed is BALLS. And true BW productions have balls. And if DW were around, you can bet he'd be standing up for his brother.

(Listen to the fade of 'Everything I Need' [original] -- that is pure, classic BW.  And something that current producers would reject and 'fix').


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on May 24, 2012, 10:39:12 AM
I'll add a more intangible reason - feel. Did you ever feel that you majored in Brian Wilson. That you took all the courses, studied, took the tests, and graduated. You THINK you know Brian Wilson when you hear him. Heck, you've been studying him for decades. Therefore, you also feel you know when it is NOT Brian Wilson. It just doesn't FEEL like something he would write, arrange, and produce.

But what you're describing is the process of creating your own mental Brian, in your own head -- a particular image filtered through your own perceptions -- and then treating it like it's the real one's problem when he doesn't match your image.  If he doesn't match, it's not that he's a more diverse person than you thought; no, it must be down to someone else.

That's not him, it's you.


Cheers,
Jon Blum

Yes, Jon, it is me, my image, my filter. But, the thing that makes Brian's solo output different is that there is always somebody - in close proximity to Brian - who might just be able to do the job better than the (current) Brian. :o

For the overwhelming time in the Beach Boys, Brian's role and contribution was undisputed. Brian did the music and his collaborator did the lyrics. There was no reason to dispute this, and it wasn't. Later in the Beach Boys' timeline, when it was necessary to distinguish, it was. Carl got credit on Love You, Al on MIU, Bruce on KTSA, etc. I didn't get the impression that people were going out of their way to make Brian's contributions more than they were at that time. Other than Mike Love's writing credit debates, is there much dispute about what Brian did or didn't do?

The solo years were different. Like I said above, there was always somebody there who was ready, willing (paid), and able to do the work for Brian. Who produced more of BW88, Titleman or Wilson? On Imagination, Thomas or Wilson? On BWPS, Sahanaja or Wilson? On TLOS, Bennett/team or Wilson? The same can be said for the songwriting. There doesn't appear to be the same music/lyric split as in The Beach Boys' years. As far as the arrangements, I'm unsure. But, instead of working with studio musicians (who were brilliant, I'm not minimizing their skills), Brian is depending on contributions from musicians who are coming off of their own cutting edge albums.

So, Jon, when I hear something diverse, I look at Brian, then I see the person sitting next to him, and I go, "Hmmm". That means I'm raising questions in my head. If they just would've called the solo thing - The Brian Wilson Band! ;D


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Andy B on May 24, 2012, 11:10:19 AM
I would trust Hal and Carol on the subject more if Everything I Need's original mix was awesome. But as folks can hear, it's just not a particularly exciting track.

As for the Paley sessions -- I personally hear far more BW in BW88 and SI than in that stuff. Brian superfans like Andy's aesthetic and thus convince themselves that Brian likes it too. I'm just not sure that's true.

The original "Everything I Need" track is brilliant in my opinion, a real classic.  I'm not certain I would call it a demo ... more like a mix-in-progress.  Everything is there on the original, it just needs a final mix and it's perfect.  Hal & Carol are totally right on that.

Same thing with the Paley tracks.  The thing that I don't get is that you used 'Everything I Need' as an example of of an actual, true-blue BW production. Yet, you claim the Paley stuff is Paley re-creating Brian. To my ears, "Everything I Need" sounds pretty similar to the Paley stuff.

And you also say it's not 'particularly exciting'. Not only do I disagree 100%, but I think it's important to release legitimate BW productions, warts and all (they used to call it 'character'). What's the point if it's watered down and doctored up to be deemed 'good enough' for the masses? What is going on here? It's just like an 'F-You' to the Beach Boys' and Brian's legacy. What would Dennis say about everything that has been released since the '80s? What the Beach Boys and the BW solo releases have been missing since DW passed is BALLS. And true BW productions have balls. And if DW were around, you can bet he'd be standing up for his brother.

(Listen to the fade of 'Everything I Need' [original] -- that is pure, classic BW.  And something that current producers would reject and 'fix').

Yeah the original Everything I Need is one i dearly love. The song, the voices, the quite simple arrangement are brilliant and a perfect compliment to each other. Perhaps thinking about it Brian works with what he is given (in fact i guess he always has done) meaning that the Paley sessions sound the way they do because Paley presented him with a studio full of vintage gear, Sweet Insanity sounds like it does because Landy and who else was involved gave him some dodgy synths to play around with, and so on. I believe that over the past 30 or 40 (maybe more years) Brian has relied upon someone else to open the door and give him an excuse to record. Brian hasn't actively pursued producers or studios to record, they have been given to him or have sought him out instead.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. Brians solo years are probably the most fascinating to me, because they seem to have this constant push and pull to them. A battle between Brians songwriting (which has never diminshed) and outside collaborators who all seem to have their own agenda but who Brian needs to actually complete anything. Maybe Everything I Need is one of the last times Brian truly ran something himself. It's just a great shame that he didn't have the belief in his own work to say that it was finished and  unfortunately for us he let someone else do it for him.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 24, 2012, 11:12:27 AM
I would love to see the next Beach Boys album recorded at Daptone with whoever is still left from the Wrecking Crew.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 24, 2012, 11:21:09 AM
I would trust Hal and Carol on the subject more if Everything I Need's original mix was awesome. But as folks can hear, it's just not a particularly exciting track.

As for the Paley sessions -- I personally hear far more BW in BW88 and SI than in that stuff. Brian superfans like Andy's aesthetic and thus convince themselves that Brian likes it too. I'm just not sure that's true.

The original "Everything I Need" track is brilliant in my opinion, a real classic.  I'm not certain I would call it a demo ... more like a mix-in-progress.  Everything is there on the original, it just needs a final mix and it's perfect.  Hal & Carol are totally right on that.

Same thing with the Paley tracks.  The thing that I don't get is that you used 'Everything I Need' as an example of of an actual, true-blue BW production. Yet, you claim the Paley stuff is Paley re-creating Brian. To my ears, "Everything I Need" sounds pretty similar to the Paley stuff.

And you also say it's not 'particularly exciting'. Not only do I disagree 100%, but I think it's important to release legitimate BW productions, warts and all (they used to call it 'character'). What's the point if it's watered down and doctored up to be deemed 'good enough' for the masses? What is going on here? It's just like an 'F-You' to the Beach Boys' and Brian's legacy. What would Dennis say about everything that has been released since the '80s? What the Beach Boys and the BW solo releases have been missing since DW passed is BALLS. And true BW productions have balls. And if DW were around, you can bet he'd be standing up for his brother.

(Listen to the fade of 'Everything I Need' [original] -- that is pure, classic BW.  And something that current producers would reject and 'fix').

Yeah the original Everything I Need is one i dearly love. The song, the voices, the quite simple arrangement are brilliant and a perfect compliment to each other. Perhaps thinking about it Brian works with what he is given (in fact i guess he always has done) meaning that the Paley sessions sound the way they do because Paley presented him with a studio full of vintage gear, Sweet Insanity sounds like it does because Landy and who else was involved gave him some dodgy synths to play around with, and so on. I believe that over the past 30 or 40 (maybe more years) Brian has relied upon someone else to open the door and give him an excuse to record. Brian hasn't actively pursued producers or studios to record, they have been given to him or have sought him out instead.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. Brians solo years are probably the most fascinating to me, because they seem to have this constant push and pull to them. A battle between Brians songwriting (which has never diminshed) and outside collaborators who all seem to have their own agenda but who Brian needs to actually complete anything. Maybe Everything I Need is one of the last times Brian truly ran something himself. It's just a great shame that he didn't have the belief in his own work to say that it was finished and  unfortunately for us he let someone else do it for him.

This is a great, insightful post -- I think you're right on.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Andy B on May 24, 2012, 11:32:26 AM
Cheers.

Do you know what happened to those Asher sessions. As far as i know there were two songs - Everything I Need and This Isn't Love. Obvously the former was recorded, and This Isn't Love was recorded as a piano instrumental. But were there any other songs written (i can't remember, but seem to recall there was at least one more) and if so were any recordings made. For me this short reunion of Wilson and Asher seemed to spark some real magic. Both Everything I Need and This Isn't Love (especially the live Roxy take) are big faves of mine and again hinted at something that if taken further could have resulted in something very memorable. Instead (as seems to be the constant frustration) we are left with a whole bunch of questions and what ifs.



Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on May 24, 2012, 12:44:50 PM
Wasn't there a song called 'Sweetie'?


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 01:11:07 PM
The original "Everything I Need" track is brilliant in my opinion, a real classic.  I'm not certain I would call it a demo ... more like a mix-in-progress.  Everything is there on the original, it just needs a final mix and it's perfect.  Hal & Carol are totally right on that.

No, it's not a demo. The YT video is incorrectly titled. It's an early version, which is what I called it in my post.

There are actually four circulating versions of the song.

1.) An early rough mix that has Brian singing most of the lead, and which does not have a string arrangement.

2.) The mix on the YT video, which has strings (BW did not arrange them, btw), and features more lead vocals from the girls.

3.) The version on the Wilsons album, which features extensive extra overdubs from Joe Thomas.

4.) A 2000 version by Jeff Foskett and Darian S., with some vocal participation from Brian. It's been suggested it uses the original 1996 track, but this is almost certainly not true; Darian incorporates the original riff from "Sandy / Sheri She Needs Me" into the track. Brian's vocal on it is terrible.

As for whether it's brilliant or not -- that's why I include the link. People can make up their own minds. I can only speak to myself. After hearing what Hal and Carol said, and hearing the Joe Thomas version, I was sorely disappointed in the BW-produced track. To me, it just sounds dull.

Same thing with the Paley tracks.  The thing that I don't get is that you used 'Everything I Need' as an example of of an actual, true-blue BW production. Yet, you claim the Paley stuff is Paley re-creating Brian. To my ears, "Everything I Need" sounds pretty similar to the Paley stuff.

For the purposes of my post, it doesn't matter if something sounds similar. It matters if it's documented as a solo Brian Wilson production. The early versions of Everything I Need were, without any doubt, solo Brian Wilson productions. Chunks of the Paley sessions, even stuff that sounds just like Brian -- have been documented as being solely Andy's work. This is part of the fundamental problem with talking about Brian's solo career -- just because something sounds like him doesn't mean it's him, and just because something doesn't sound like him, doesn't mean he didn't think it was a great idea.

But I think it's important to release legitimate BW productions, warts and all (they used to call it 'character'). What's the point if it's watered down and doctored up to be deemed 'good enough' for the masses? What is going on here? It's just like an 'F-You' to the Beach Boys' and Brian's legacy.

It's the music business, man. Record companies do not release music that they don't think will sell in sufficient quantity to recoup their investment. Brian Wilson has not sold serious numbers of records on a sustained basis for more than 40 years. Why should they trust him now?

-- Brian's own daughters rejected his production and songwriting for the Wilsons album. They went with more popular songwriters and producers instead.

-- No record company would release the Paley sessions.

-- Giant records would not release Imagination until Brian redid many of his lead vocals.

-- No record company would release Brian's two-man band work with Scott Bennett.

It's all well and good to say the stuff must be released, but over the last 20 years or so, no record company has been willing to do it, because they think the productions (and often, the performances) are not up to snuff.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 01:15:20 PM
Cheers.

Do you know what happened to those Asher sessions. As far as i know there were two songs - Everything I Need and This Isn't Love. Obvously the former was recorded, and This Isn't Love was recorded as a piano instrumental. But were there any other songs written (i can't remember, but seem to recall there was at least one more) and if so were any recordings made. For me this short reunion of Wilson and Asher seemed to spark some real magic. Both Everything I Need and This Isn't Love (especially the live Roxy take) are big faves of mine and again hinted at something that if taken further could have resulted in something very memorable. Instead (as seems to be the constant frustration) we are left with a whole bunch of questions and what ifs.


They wrote several other songs in the mid-90s, including one called "The Rock and Roll Express," that was about a train spreading rock across the countryside. (Really!)

Wasn't there a song called 'Sweetie'?

There was, but it wasn't an Asher-Wilson number. It's just another version of "Love Ya" from Sweet Insanity with different lyrics (it dates to the early 80s, I believe). Brian recorded several things with Carnie and Wendy during this time -- including a version of "Surf's Up" with Joe Thomas co-producing.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: hypehat on May 24, 2012, 01:17:07 PM
..... a version of "Surf's Up" with Joe Thomas co-producing.

The mind boggles.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 01:22:19 PM
..... a version of "Surf's Up" with Joe Thomas co-producing.

The mind boggles.

Wendy on the first section, Brian on the second.

Nylon-string guitar throughout.

(I made that last part up.)


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Andy B on May 24, 2012, 01:31:28 PM
..... a version of "Surf's Up" with Joe Thomas co-producing.

The mind boggles.

Wendy on the first section, Brian on the second.

Nylon-string guitar throughout.

(I made that last part up.)

I so want to hear that.

I really do.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 01:46:36 PM
..... a version of "Surf's Up" with Joe Thomas co-producing.

The mind boggles.

Wendy on the first section, Brian on the second.

Nylon-string guitar throughout.

(I made that last part up.)

I so want to hear that.

I really do.

Virtually no Wilson-Thomas work has leaked. It's very interesting. The only things that circulate are some tracks played on Steve Dahl's radio show, and an early version of "Your Imagination" without the verses. I would love to hear studio stuff from that period -- they recorded quite a bit.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 24, 2012, 01:47:44 PM
..... a version of "Surf's Up" with Joe Thomas co-producing.

UHHHH.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Andy B on May 24, 2012, 01:53:39 PM
..... a version of "Surf's Up" with Joe Thomas co-producing.

The mind boggles.

Wendy on the first section, Brian on the second.

Nylon-string guitar throughout.

(I made that last part up.)

I so want to hear that.

I really do.

Virtually no Wilson-Thomas work has leaked. It's very interesting. The only things that circulate are some tracks played on Steve Dahl's radio show, and an early version of "Your Imagination" without the verses. I would love to hear studio stuff from that period -- they recorded quite a bit.

Very interesting. Prior to this new Beach Boys album being announced, did anyone know of the songs that are on it? i mean it seems like there is quite a stash of BW / JT tunes that have more or less been kept secret - even the titles, let alone tapes circulating, so it is very interesting to know there is even more sitting in the vaults. And to be honest i don't really care what they sound like, i just wanna hear the songs.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 01:59:43 PM
Very interesting. Prior to this new Beach Boys album being announced, did anyone know of the songs that are on it? i mean it seems like there is quite a stash of BW / JT tunes that have more or less been kept secret - even the titles, let alone tapes circulating, so it is very interesting to know there is even more sitting in the vaults. And to be honest i don't really care what they sound like, i just wanna hear the songs.

Nope -- all the BW co-writes are previously unheard. Folks knew Daybreak, which is a Mike Love song from the late 70s. And it seems like that Shelter, Bill and Sue and Think About the Days are newish BW compositions. But that leaves eight tracks that could have originated back in the late '90s.

And hey, guess what? Here's a 1998 quote from Joe Thomas:

"We recorded like 20 songs for Imagination, and I think he feels kind of guilty that some of the songs didn’t make it. There’s so much stuff that we recorded, and I really have to convince people that the reason some of the songs didn’t get on the album weren’t because they weren’t as good as the songs on the album. They just weren’t conceptual, they weren’t as thematic. So we’ve got a good kick start. There’s eight songs recorded and I’d say four of those songs would fit easily on a new Brian Wilson album. It’s funny too, when we did Imagination, Brian was thinking with the Beach Boys in mind. Even though it was a solo record, that could have easily been a Beach Boys record.”


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Andy B on May 24, 2012, 02:12:32 PM
Once again - very interesting. Strange as well, because from hearing the clips of the new album songs, i prefer most of them to any on Imagination, but i can see how maybe they woudn't fit. The new ones do actually feel more like Beach Boy songs - like they need the group singing.

Also interesting that at least 2 times (the 1st with the Paley material) in the mid to late nineties Brian was thinking about doing a Beach Boys album. But for whatever reason it never happened and its (in hindsight now quite bizarre) taken another 12 years or so for it to be considered again.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 02:18:41 PM
We have no confirmation, of course, that the eight leftovers Joe mentions are the same eight songs in question on TWGMTR ... there may have been other things worked on after the record was finished, or in the intervening years. But it's a fascinating quote nonetheless, and I think it shows how much Brian wanted to make a BB record in the 90s.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 24, 2012, 03:03:30 PM
For the purposes of my post, it doesn't matter if something sounds similar. It matters if it's documented as a solo Brian Wilson production.

I think this is where our opinions differ. To me, the 'documentation' doesn't exist and can't exist. So all we have is careful listening. At best, we have anecdotal evidence. I'm not sure what documentation you're referring to ... an interview with someone who said it was so? Are there session logs and tapes to study? Does anyone here have access to those?

I will accept the possiblity that Paley is just so good that I think that it's Brian. But that doesn't explain why BW's vocals sound so heartfelt here, and sound like he's sleepwalking through the takes elsewhere.


-- No record company would release the Paley sessions.

I don't believe that to be true. Maybe no record company would pay the amount of money BW's management wanted, rather.

-- Giant records would not release Imagination until Brian redid many of his lead vocals.

Maybe that was because that record was lame and the back tracks sounded A/C and the vocals sounded like a demo. Maybe if the whole thing was rough, they would have.  Maybe they were just the wrong label for BW.

It's all well and good to say the stuff must be released, but over the last 20 years or so, no record company has been willing to do it, because they think the productions (and often, the performances) are not up to snuff.

This 'no record company will release them' is really BS, I'm sorry.  Maybe the heart of the issue is that BW's & the BB management are not willing to go to a smaller label. The irony is they would probably make more money with an 'artistic' album than a 'commercial' one.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Andy B on May 24, 2012, 03:31:39 PM
To be honest Brian Wilsons stock was pretty low in the 90's so i don't think it's too hard to imagine a time back then where your average middle to large record company wouldn't touch him unless he came up with something pretty special that also sounded like it would sell. Easy for us to think looking back (in our ever increasing retro world) that it would have been a great hit - that Soul Searchin' would have been a no. 1 smash in 37 countries. But i guess back then those Paley tapes sounded pretty darn weird. And back in the 90's when corporate rock and pop ruled the world they were totally out of touch. By about 30 years. So i have no trouble in believing that they probably couldn't even give them away (actually they gave Soul Searchin to Solomon Burke who gave the song a great go and probably did it better than Wilson did).

I believe the whole Wilson / Paley songs should be treated as a true 50/50 collaboration both in songwriting and producing. There are quite obviously some Brian moments and also some quite obvious Paley bits, and a whole lot somewhere in the middle. But there is nothing wrong with that. Those songs only exist and are as good as they are because Brian was involved in them. His influence and personality are all over them, whether he actually wrote them or not.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 24, 2012, 03:43:24 PM
To be honest Brian Wilsons stock was pretty low in the 90's so i don't think it's too hard to imagine a time back then where your average middle to large record company wouldn't touch him unless he came up with something pretty special that also sounded like it would sell. Easy for us to think looking back (in our ever increasing retro world) that it would have been a great hit - that Soul Searchin' would have been a no. 1 smash in 37 countries. But i guess back then those Paley tapes sounded pretty darn weird. And back in the 90's when corporate rock and pop ruled the world they were totally out of touch. By about 30 years. So i have no trouble in believing that they probably couldn't even give them away (actually they gave Soul Searchin to Solomon Burke who gave the song a great go and probably did it better than Wilson did).

I believe the whole Wilson / Paley songs should be treated as a true 50/50 collaboration both in songwriting and producing. There are quite obviously some Brian moments and also some quite obvious Paley bits, and a whole lot somewhere in the middle. But there is nothing wrong with that. Those songs only exist and are as good as they are because Brian was involved in them. His influence and personality are all over them, whether he actually wrote them or not.

good point.  but I can't help but think if someone like Matador or Sub Pop were offered this stuff in the mid-'90s, they would have jumped at the chance.  And the record would now be considered a classic and would still be selling. Wouldn't have been a big hit or anything, but then again, neither was any of the other crap they released in the '90s. I'd bet the Paley stuff would have out-sold all other '90s BB or BW releases combined.

And these days, you can have a hit that sounds like a '60s record. Not so in the '90s.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Andy B on May 24, 2012, 03:52:45 PM
The frustrating thing is that they continue to sit on a shelf somewhere. I was listening to them earlier and there are easily 12 fantastic songs, that could be presented as an album. You could even take off GIOMH, Saturday Morning and Soul Searchin and still have a good album. And to think that there may be other Wilson / Thomas tracks, a couple of Wilson / Asher tracks as well, and you could have a real decent release and overvew of Brian Wilson in the 90's. Though the chances of such a release are probably pretty remote unfortunately. So back to dream world..........

Oh and i totally forgot about This Could Be The Night. That is quite possibily the best track of the whole lot - just the way it sounds and pounds along. Brian is totally into it. I can listen to that song over and over again, easy. Never loses it's brilliance. And that got released, albeit on a low budget comp that probably 10 people in the world bought.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 04:05:31 PM
For the purposes of my post, it doesn't matter if something sounds similar. It matters if it's documented as a solo Brian Wilson production.

I think this is where our opinions differ. To me, the 'documentation' doesn't exist and can't exist. So all we have is careful listening. At best, we have anecdotal evidence. I'm not sure what documentation you're referring to ... an interview with someone who said it was so? Are there session logs and tapes to study? Does anyone here have access to those?

I will accept the possiblity that Paley is just so good that I think that it's Brian. But that doesn't explain why BW's vocals sound so heartfelt here, and sound like he's sleepwalking through the takes elsewhere.

The Everything I Need session was well documented. Hal and Carol gave interviews, Brian talked about it, and a contemporaneous account pf the session appeared in Brian's newsletter at the time. There was no co-producer there. Everyone talked about it as a Brian Wilson production -- and it sounds like one.

The Paley sessions, on the other hand, were always spoken of -- by Brian and Andy -- as being co-productions. The tracks that have emerged from the sessions officially - Sweets for My Sweet, This Could Be The Night and In My Moondreams -- all carry a credit for Andy as co-producer or as sole producer of the material.

As for "heartfelt" vocals, I will once again point out that Brian's leads on the Gershwin and Disney albums are also excellent. As, for that matter, are many of his leads on Orange Crate Art, which he did not write or produce.

-- No record company would release the Paley sessions.

I don't believe that to be true. Maybe no record company would pay the amount of money BW's management wanted, rather.

Andy Paley said so. And if labels were so eager to release that material, we certainly haven't seen much of it.

Anyway, on the broader point about Brian going to a smaller label, or releasing the material on his own, I happen to agree with you. He and his camp have been hung up on major label status, which too often forces them into compromises (although less so, generally speaking, in recent years).

It's worth pointing out, though, that he did release an album through his website, and then a second one through an independent label. Apparently neither of those releases did well enough for the BW camp to pursue that avenue further, although it certainly could prove artistically worthwhile.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 04:09:46 PM
The frustrating thing is that they continue to sit on a shelf somewhere. I was listening to them earlier and there are easily 12 fantastic songs, that could be presented as an album.

Probably more than that. They wrote more than has been recorded or booted.

A couple of Wilson / Asher tracks as well.

More than a couple.

Brian also wrote quite a few songs with Stevie Kalinich in 2002-03. Two made it onto GIOMH, but there are several others, apparently.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 24, 2012, 04:23:59 PM
The tracks that have emerged from the sessions officially - Sweets for My Sweet, This Could Be The Night and In My Moondreams -- all carry a credit for Andy as co-producer or as sole producer of the material.


According to the label credits, the following information is true:

"When Girls Get Together" was produced by Bruce Johnston.

"Never Learn Not to Love" was written by Dennis Wilson.

"My Diane" and "Hey Little Tomboy" were produced by Al Jardine and Ron Altbach.

"Love Surrounds Me" and "Baby Blue" were produced by James William Guercio, Bruce Johnston and The Beach Boys. That would include Mike       Love, right? Mike Love co-produced Dennis' solo material!

Carl Wilson did not sing on "River Song" or "Rainbows".

"Good Vibrations" was produced by The Beach Boys.

(Not saying Andy didn't co-produce the tracks. But I think he was primarily assisting BW for the most part).


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 04:36:00 PM
The comparisons you're making are nonsense. They generally have to do with the problematic situation that arises when all the members of a band produce their own material but a single person (or group of people) has to assemble a record for release.

This is entirely different from the Paley sessions, where Brian and Andy were creating specific songs for specific projects that included separate production credits for each song.

And it's richly ironic that in a thread where we've talked repeatedly about how "produced by Brian Wilson" is a problematic credit, you want to actually scrub off the name of Brian's collaborator on these tunes. In nearly every other case in Brian's solo career, his collaborators have contributed mightily to the final result. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that exactly the same is the case with Andy Paley?


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Sam_BFC on May 24, 2012, 05:04:49 PM
Re: the aforementioned version of Everything I Need soundind lifeless and dull...let's remember that it is from a dubious source so may not be the most high quality rendering of the track.

And Re: Surf's Up (Joe Thomas Version) - absolute mind f***  :ahh  you're not pulling our legs are you?


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Puggal on May 24, 2012, 05:05:35 PM
So you think Sahanaja produced Smile and not Brian?


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 24, 2012, 05:32:06 PM
The comparisons you're making are nonsense. They generally have to do with the problematic situation that arises when all the members of a band produce their own material but a single person (or group of people) has to assemble a record for release.

This is entirely different from the Paley sessions, where Brian and Andy were creating specific songs for specific projects that included separate production credits for each song.

And it's richly ironic that in a thread where we've talked repeatedly about how "produced by Brian Wilson" is a problematic credit, you want to actually scrub off the name of Brian's collaborator on these tunes. In nearly every other case in Brian's solo career, his collaborators have contributed mightily to the final result. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that exactly the same is the case with Andy Paley?

I'll quote myself, since you apparently didn't read it:

"(Not saying Andy didn't co-produce the tracks. But I think he was primarily assisting BW for the most part)."

I would never wish to diminish Andy's importance in those tracks.  He certainly seems to have played many (if not most) instruments and I'm absolutely certain he co-produced the tracks.  But that doesn't diminish my opinion that these are authentic Brian Wilson productions. Note I am not saying it was a solo production by Brian.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: DonnyL on May 24, 2012, 05:33:03 PM
So you think Sahanaja produced Smile and not Brian?

I don't know who produced it.  I'm sure Brian was heavily involved.  I'm sure his band and Mark Linnett were involved as well.

I think this was one of those 'recorded' more than 'produced' recordings. The production was ultimately a re-creation of Brian's '60s productions.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 24, 2012, 05:57:08 PM
Re: the aforementioned version of Everything I Need soundind lifeless and dull...let's remember that it is from a dubious source so may not be the most high quality rendering of the track.

And Re: Surf's Up (Joe Thomas Version) - absolute mind f*ck  :ahh  you're not pulling our legs are you?

Search the archives of this very board. AGD has posted about it.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: keysarsoze001 on May 25, 2012, 12:38:06 PM
So you think Sahanaja produced Smile and not Brian?

I don't know who produced it.  I'm sure Brian was heavily involved.  I'm sure his band and Mark Linnett were involved as well.

I think this was one of those 'recorded' more than 'produced' recordings. The production was ultimately a re-creation of Brian's '60s productions.

Based on the footage in the Beautiful Dreamer dvd, it seems to me like they basically set up the concert stage in the studio and then had the band play through everything a bunch of times, then did some vocal overdubs. So strictly speaking, Brian didn't produce these sessions, as really the work was already done beforehand. He sat in the booth and gave notes and had an engineer and so forth, but he wasn't strictly producing in the truest sense of the word, so much as overseeing or stage managing. But considering the fact that the band was recreating the Wrecking Crew material pretty much note for note (with the exception of the new interludes), it was still Brian's arrangements from thirty-some-odd years earlier. He just didn't need to take the time to go over whether or not the shekere sounded enough like jewelry, because he'd already established the sounds he wanted on the original tapes.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Wirestone on May 25, 2012, 01:14:41 PM
So you think Sahanaja produced Smile and not Brian?

I don't know who produced it.  I'm sure Brian was heavily involved.  I'm sure his band and Mark Linnett were involved as well.

I think this was one of those 'recorded' more than 'produced' recordings. The production was ultimately a re-creation of Brian's '60s productions.

Based on the footage in the Beautiful Dreamer dvd, it seems to me like they basically set up the concert stage in the studio and then had the band play through everything a bunch of times, then did some vocal overdubs. So strictly speaking, Brian didn't produce these sessions, as really the work was already done beforehand. He sat in the booth and gave notes and had an engineer and so forth, but he wasn't strictly producing in the truest sense of the word, so much as overseeing or stage managing. But considering the fact that the band was recreating the Wrecking Crew material pretty much note for note (with the exception of the new interludes), it was still Brian's arrangements from thirty-some-odd years earlier. He just didn't need to take the time to go over whether or not the shekere sounded enough like jewelry, because he'd already established the sounds he wanted on the original tapes.

Brian did make a couple of calls on the record that were pretty important. He decided that it should be recorded sectionally, like the 60s sessions, rather than straight through (like the live shows). He also had the band follow the original records more closely in a couple of occasions (the live arrangements were simpler) and contributed keyboards to a track or two.

That being said, the overall point is valid -- and it's what I wrote in my original, lengthy post. I think of BWPS as very similar to the two albums (PSLive and Roxy). That is, Brian has a producer credit, but his role is more in creating the original recordings and arrangements, and serving as inspiration for the band re-creating them.


Title: Re: Brian Wilson as auteur, 1988-present
Post by: Puggal on May 25, 2012, 01:35:06 PM
Thanks for clarifying.