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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: adam78 on December 30, 2011, 05:33:30 AM



Title: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: adam78 on December 30, 2011, 05:33:30 AM
I was wondering if anyone could please fill in the gaps of my knowledge regarding the 71 recording of this part of surfs up. I've been doing a bit of searching and only really found what I've already heard. That being that Brian got involved only for this part of the song and completely orchestrated it from start to finish.

Is there anymore info than this? Are there accounts of actually how and when he got involved? I'm sure i read somewhere once that he came out from his bedroom suddenly after hearing them working on it? I love that thought that he wanted to complete an unfinished intention for smile music. Of course, as wiki says, it's unknown whether or not it was a valid 66/67 idea. Is that definitely the case?

Anyway, any help or info on this would be greatly appreciated.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 30, 2011, 05:36:15 AM
I think Desper's book goes into detail about this subject. All i know is the band did the rest of the song, Brian burst into the studio and directed the making of the coda


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: hypehat on December 30, 2011, 05:47:22 AM
Yeah, I'd wait for Desper or AGD to show up - but what I understand is that they were working on it unsuccessfully until Brian came in and told them what to do. There is also some doubt about whether the coda lyrics are written by VDP, though - I might be mistaken, but I believe they are in Jack Reilly's handwriting on the lyric sheet, according to those in the know.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Mooger Fooger on December 30, 2011, 07:12:36 AM
I asked Steve Desper about the recording in 1987 (later published in BBA) and he stated that the band was working on the song with Brian steadfastly refusing to help out. One evening the studio door flew open and Brian was standing there in his bathrobe and began to instruct the guys on how the coda should go. I am going from memory, but will consult my original notes later today.

EDIT: The above recollections are confirmed in my 1987 notes.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Mike's Beard on December 30, 2011, 07:25:24 AM
Commence debate on if that's Brian or Al singing..... :p


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Wrightfan on December 30, 2011, 10:14:59 AM
Commence debate on if that's Brian or Al singing..... :p

I think it has already been established it's Al right?


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on December 30, 2011, 10:27:20 AM
Interesting that it seems like the exact same story they have for Cool, Cool Water. This is the first time that I have actually heard it in terms of Surf's Up.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Rocker on December 30, 2011, 12:28:53 PM
Interesting that it seems like the exact same story they have for Cool, Cool Water. This is the first time that I have actually heard it in terms of Surf's Up.


And I never heard anything about that and Cool, Cool Water.  :o


I think Brian's piano playing on the '66 Surf's up sounds very much like he wanted to put Child Is... there



Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: metal flake paint on December 30, 2011, 02:26:09 PM
Commence debate on if that's Brian or Al singing..... :p

I think it has already been established it's Al right?

Yes.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: hypehat on December 30, 2011, 05:06:55 PM
Well, if it wasn't Al, it's someone doing an insane impression of him - I always thought it was.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: metal flake paint on December 30, 2011, 05:18:52 PM
Vocal isolation confirms that it's Al.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Runaways on December 30, 2011, 10:49:48 PM
Interesting that it seems like the exact same story they have for Cool, Cool Water. This is the first time that I have actually heard it in terms of Surf's Up.


And I never heard anything about that and Cool, Cool Water.  :o


I think Brian's piano playing on the '66 Surf's up sounds very much like he wanted to put Child Is... there



i would assume that coda was always supposed to be there.  It sounds right, and that part was recorded in 67


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: adam78 on December 31, 2011, 12:46:42 AM
Thank you very much for the info guys. And I'd defintely not heard the same went for cool cool water!

So how did he affect that one then? The running order and splicing water chant into the middle etc? Do people think that was a smile intention he was playing out also?


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Jim V. on January 01, 2012, 04:06:42 PM
Thank you very much for the info guys. And I'd defintely not heard the same went for cool cool water!

So how did he affect that one then? The running order and splicing water chant into the middle etc? Do people think that was a smile intention he was playing out also?

I'm actually pretty sure he said something like "it fits alright, but there is something not quite right about it", referring to the "water chant" section in "Cool Cool Water".

However, when asked lately about the song like on the podcasts for The Warmth of the Sun compilation, he said it was one of his very favorites, if I recall correctly.

As far as why "Cool Cool Water" was on Sunflower I think it was Larry Waronker who heard Brian playing the song on his piano in 1970 or so, and asked them to put the song on the album so they did.

And then, "Surf's Up", apparently Jack Rieley asked Brian to put the song on the album which became Surf's Up, and he promised him he would, even going as far as to help Carl and Jack at some points. He also apparently tried to lead vocal for the first section, but decided it was better for Carl to do it. And then yes, the story about the coda, as already has been related. Van Dyke Parks also takes credit for saying something like "title the album Surf's Up and put the song on there and the album will move (however many) units".


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on January 01, 2012, 09:06:02 PM
Since I was practically living in Brian's house and certainly at the studio most of the time, what is it that you wish to know?
~ Stephen W. Desper


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Jay on January 01, 2012, 09:26:25 PM
Somebody on here not to long ago posted that there was a Surf's Up coda recorded in 1967 that sounded very similar to what was recorded and releaed in 1971. Is this true? If it is, then why wasn't it included on the Smile box?


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Curtis Leon on January 01, 2012, 09:37:45 PM
Thank you very much for the info guys. And I'd defintely not heard the same went for cool cool water!

So how did he affect that one then? The running order and splicing water chant into the middle etc? Do people think that was a smile intention he was playing out also?

The water chant was recorded during the Wild Honey sessions, specifically for Cool Cool Water, so I would say not.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Jim V. on January 01, 2012, 10:30:44 PM
Since I was practically living in Brian's house and certainly at the studio most of the time, what is it that you wish to know?
~ Stephen W. Desper

Wow. Nice to see you in this thread Mr. Depser. Your work on Sunflower and Surf's Up is magnificent. Anyways, my questions for you would be Brian's level of involvement on "Surf's Up" and "Cool, Cool Water".


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on January 01, 2012, 10:36:05 PM
Thank you very much for the info guys. And I'd defintely not heard the same went for cool cool water!

So how did he affect that one then? The running order and splicing water chant into the middle etc? Do people think that was a smile intention he was playing out also?

The water chant was recorded during the Wild Honey sessions, specifically for Cool Cool Water, so I would say not.

COMMENT:  NO it was not. The chant is or was part of the original Smile sessions recorded at Columbia Studios by Brian. He was not involved in the CCW released on "Sunflower." Carl used the chant to tie the first and last sections together. It was his creative decision. The original chant was not a chant. It was a song about a baby with the title, "I love to say Dada." It was never finished or released. ~swd


PS  WILL SOMEONE FIX THIS DAMN SOFTWARE!!!


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Jim V. on January 01, 2012, 11:16:43 PM
Thank you very much for the info guys. And I'd defintely not heard the same went for cool cool water!

So how did he affect that one then? The running order and splicing water chant into the middle etc? Do people think that was a smile intention he was playing out also?

The water chant was recorded during the Wild Honey sessions, specifically for Cool Cool Water, so I would say not.

COMMENT:  NO it was not. The chant is or was part of the original Smile sessions recorded at Columbia Studios by Brian. He was not involved in the CCW released on "Sunflower." Carl used the chant to tie the first and last sections together. It was his creative decision. The original chant was not a chant. It was a song about a baby with the title, "I love to say Dada." It was never finished or released. ~swd


PS  WILL SOMEONE FIX THIS DAMN SOFTWARE!!!

You say Brian wasn't involved in Sunflower version of "Cool, Cool Water",  but wasn't the second half of the song recorded in 1970? You know, the parts with Brian and Mike both taking the lead? Or was this from 1967 also?


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Jay on January 02, 2012, 12:33:15 AM
Wasn't it recently confirmed that the "water chant" was recorded after Smile? I thought I read something about that around the time of the box sets release.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Paul2010 on January 02, 2012, 01:11:35 AM
Wasn't it recently confirmed that the "water chant" was recorded after Smile? I thought I read something about that around the time of the box sets release.

That's indeed the case, in the book that came with the 5-cd Smile Sessions it is said that the Cool Cool Water Chant (as it is called) was recorded in October '67.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: over and over on January 02, 2012, 05:29:17 AM
Since I was practically living in Brian's house and certainly at the studio most of the time, what is it that you wish to know?
~ Stephen W. Desper

Wow this is awsome! Sunflower is the best album I've ever heard Mr. Desper. "All I Wanna Do" has the coolest sound.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: hypehat on January 02, 2012, 05:41:50 AM
Since I was practically living in Brian's house and certainly at the studio most of the time, what is it that you wish to know?
~ Stephen W. Desper

Wow this is awsome! Sunflower is the best album I've ever heard Mr. Desper. "All I Wanna Do" has the coolest sound.

Over & over, go check out his thread in the Honoured Guests section if you haven't already - A treasure trove.


Stephen, I'd second the call to get a different web browser - They are generally quite good at keeping all your old bookmarks, addresses, passwords, and stuff when you switch over, so don't worry about that. I'm on Google Chrome and suffer no difficulty with the board, but Internet Explorer is notoriously clunky with most facets of the internet. We'd hate to see you leave for a technical issue easily remedied.  :)

I have another BB's question, which seems quite simple but the post up there intrigued me - What would happen in a typical day during your tenure in the studio? Did the guys just turn up most days and see what was going on? What usually happened when the group was on tour? Was there even such a thing as a typical day?

Oh, and is Recording The Beach Boys going to get reprinted? I can't find a copy anywhere.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on January 02, 2012, 08:49:05 AM
COMMENT:  NO it was not. The chant is or was part of the original Smile sessions recorded at Columbia Studios by Brian. He was not involved in the CCW released on "Sunflower." Carl used the chant to tie the first and last sections together. It was his creative decision. The original chant was not a chant. It was a song about a baby with the title, "I love to say Dada." It was never finished or released. ~swd

Wow. This is a pretty big break through here.

If the chant was originally not "a chant" then was it just the backing vocals with no "water" vocals?

EDIT: After listening, I don't even know why we called it "The Water Chant" for all those years, it doesn't really even say water, it has a syncopated (wah-do) kind of sound.

I can see how that would be a "baby-ish" sound.

Also, was ILTSD a new attempt at "CIFOTM"? that would actually make sense since he even says "Now that sounds like a baby, that's our baby!" in the CIFOTM sessions.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: XXXCD on January 02, 2012, 01:59:23 PM
So the track "I Love to Say Dada" is a song about a baby !  That makes a lot of sense actually. Never heard that said before- has this been known about for a long time ?

I can only assume that this was a track written during the Smile sessions but not necessarily for use on the Smile album ?

People in the know should really explain everything they can remember. It's musical history and will be lost forever unless it is written down somehow. Now is the time.



Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on January 03, 2012, 02:32:52 AM
COMMENT:  So let me clear a few things up.   Apart from what other sources say, all I know is what transpired when I was there, and was part of the recording and production of CCW.  So here's the story as I recall, and I have good recall of this. It was an “intense” time in my life. The memory’s are deep.

When I came on the scene, Brian had already worked out many vocal parts of CCW, or a general outline of the song. That is when I started working on the water-drop mod of the Eltron. Meanwhile Carl had the wisdom of transcribing (to paper) all the parts. Time passed and this song was set aside.  Then a basic session was called, but not much was actually recorded. After all, what is the instrumentation in CCW. Not much!  A piano basically. So with the piano as a guide, and sheet music to follow, this master multi-track tape was worked on once in a while. A vocal part added, now and then. Instruments, less often. 

At this time, Brian was spending most of his time in his Bedroom. He even ate there. He would go out very late at night sometimes. One of his friends (who will remain nameles at this time), was providing Brian with the means to take drug after drug -- at the same time. Brian was in, way over his head. It was a bad thing, and out of control. 

Nevertheless, The Beach Boys were under contract to make an album and had taken advances against royalties of that pending album. Brian or not, the album had to get recorded. Carl stepped up to the task and did what he could – which turned out to be quite an excellent job. Carl worked with what he had. One thing to which he had access were all the smile tapes. One day he showed up at the house studio with boxes of them. Carl and I listened to everything many times. Carl decided that the Dada session of baby sounds set to music was something that could be worked into what was forming into a song that used Brian’s original tune, and some previous segments we recorded from time to time.

Brian was not around. He was asleep in his bedroom. He was depressed. He was despondent. He was overweight. He was drugged up. He was a mess. From time to time Carl would try to converse with him about what was being recorded in the studio below his bedroom. He could hear it all through the floor, but still would not get involved. He let Carl do it. OR RATHER, Carl became the leader while Brian was out to lunch.

Meanwhile, Carl had a manuscript and some tracks to work with. Slowly the song took shape. Everyone contributed to every song on “Sunflower,” as I said in my book. When I say that Brian was not involved in CCW, I mean he was not involved with the construction or production. Once in a while he would get a moment of clarity and sing or play; the Moog in CCW. But for the most part it was Carl who made the song into something. Carl is the hero here. And I will tell you that Carl, along with his engineer, created the structure and sonic features that bring this creation of Brian’s to its unique and entertaining life, centered around the vocal arranging and singing genius that is the Beach Boys – all six of them.

I made a reverse copy of the Dada section (as we called it) onto four tracks of the multi-track. A reverse copy has less distortion. More tracks were delayed and mixed in at the time of mixdown. I suggested a wave, a Tsunami wave that would be very dimensional and powerful at times. Eventually it became Moog keyboard controlled.

Everyone contributed. Under Carl’s watch the song took shape, as time allowed.

The rest is in the listening,


Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Jonas on January 03, 2012, 02:53:12 AM
Incredible, thank you Stephen!


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: phirnis on January 03, 2012, 03:40:02 AM
Very fascinating account, thanks for sharing!

Is there a song on Sunflower that Brian did actually have a lot to do with in terms of overall construction and production?

Carl obviously did an astonishing job on "CCW", I never knew he was the driving force behind that. Great to have some more clarity as to who did what in the studio! Sound-wise, this is probably my favorite song on Sunflower.


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Big Bri on January 03, 2012, 03:59:58 AM
Glad to see you back Stephen! Happy New Year too you as well.
I'm looking forward to the  release of the 2nd edition of your book as I missed out on the 1st run.

I'm sure everyone on here would love to have your thoughts and opinions on the  release of "The SMiLE Sessions"?
Have you heard it? etc.

Thanks Stephen!


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: metal flake paint on January 03, 2012, 01:03:38 PM
Stephen, thank you for sharing your memories. :thumbsup


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: puni puni on January 03, 2012, 03:18:55 PM
Carl decided that the Dada session of baby sounds set to music was something that could be worked into what was forming into a song that used Brian’s original tune, and some previous segments we recorded from time to time.
but cool cool water uses the same chords as dada, so it seems like they both always had something to do with "baby sounds". in baby sounds, it sounds like they're saying "water water waah-teer". no matter how hard i try, i can't hear "wah-doo".

i always thought that what happened was he wrote dada, wanted to make it a song about babies, then quickly changed it to a song about water
then, he wrote child is the father of the man based around an idea from dada (or vice versa?), and dada changed into cool cool water.

isn't this timeline correct?


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Stephen W. Desper on January 03, 2012, 05:50:07 PM
Carl decided that the Dada session of baby sounds set to music was something that could be worked into what was forming into a song that used Brian’s original tune, and some previous segments we recorded from time to time.
but cool cool water uses the same chords as dada, so it seems like they both always had something to do with "baby sounds". in baby sounds, it sounds like they're saying "water water waah-teer". no matter how hard i try, i can't hear "wah-doo".

i always thought that what happened was he wrote dada, wanted to make it a song about babies, then quickly changed it to a song about water
then, he wrote child is the father of the man based around an idea from dada (or vice versa?), and dada changed into cool cool water.

isn't this timeline correct?

COMMENT:  I really don't know. I just record the stuff.
~swd


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: puni puni on January 03, 2012, 10:40:00 PM
oops

i'll call brian up on the phone and ask him then


Title: Re: Surfs Up Coda - Brian's Involvement
Post by: Dove Nested Towers on January 03, 2012, 11:37:12 PM
Hello Stephen, thank you for your vividly detailed (depressing re: Brian, but truthful) account of the atmosphere during the recording of "Sunflower" and fascinating revelation about the genesis of the Water Chant, or unfinished baby song, later turned into the middle of CCW, with water effects added. I'm consequently slightly confused about the name "Love to Say Da Da" as it applies to both or either the piece of music by that name, re-made as "In Blue Hawaii" on Brian's 2004 version of SMiLE, and the entirely wordless piece inserted into the middle of CCW circa 1970. Inasmuch as I remember, you were not on the scene yet in '66-'67 so you may not know this, but were those two pieces both linked together as parts of the unfinished song about babies? I imagine they were. Finally that title makes sense, instead of being incongruous (although somehow still fitting) as the title of a piece ostensibly part of a proposed "Elements Suite" as the water section. That is a fascinating nugget of info, thank you for this valuable contribution to SMiLE archaeology (though you may have covered it in "Recording the Beach Boys" which I haven't read) and any further info you may have on the "song about babies" that Brian may have shared with you, during the period of its original genesis, would be welcome. Off- topic, any progress in your efforts to get the Flame's 2nd album released? Thank you for your participation here.