The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'm posting this after reading in another thread about a December 1966 compilation tape that Brian made. Whether it was to be final is another matter, but my point is, at least the songs were genuine Brian Wilson decided at that time.

Is there any way, like the lyrics one, that a sticky thread could be made for each song, and then Bona-fide details of where we know Brian completed an edit or mix, and the order it followed. Obviously not every song would need it but Heroes & Villians (duh!), Do You like worms and Child is Father of the Man are songs which there are numerous versions available, but to me, I really want to know which are the versions/edits that are 100% Brian Wilson decided.

For my own Smile, I really want to follow as closely as possible, what we know may have at least been an intention of Brian at some time or other in 66/67. This could equally throw up the chance to note points we've picked up listening to the chatter on TSS. Such as breaks between Dada for spoken word, or harmonies he intended for pieces such as Barnshine (that he sings on the session clip).

Really, I want this for my personal interpretation of historical accuracy, but I thought it would make a great reference for people, and you guys here are clearly the ones who know best.

What does anyone think? Does this already exist?

Thanks

Hi adam78,
I think such a database is a very nice idea. This is one of the most interesting subjects about Smile, the vintage edits and ideas. I've already tried to make such a list for every song but it is a bit incomplete. We could make a special thread for all the info, one song per post, and keep this thread for discussions about that basic thread with all the info?
Paul

I made this thread:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11641.0.html

What do you think of it? If you think there something missing in the concept, please tell so that we can improve it!

This is a great idea!

I just posted Our Prayer in the new thread, but without a discussion here. I think it might be better to have some sort of discussion about every track before posting it in the info thread. If there's anything that you think should be added to the Our Prayer post, please post it here!

Next track, and possibly on of the most complex ones, Heroes And Villains.

I think we can't be very definitive in describing what HAV would have looked like, because there were so many different sections recorded.

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Around the time of the Humble Harv demo (nov '66) Barnyard and IIGS might have been part of HAV ("here's another section"). Late 1966 IIGS had it's own track (as seen on the track list/back cover). The only things recorded for HAV at that time were the verse and the intro (early version) and January 3rd '67 some other sections were recorded (Do A Lot, Bag Of Tricks, Mission Pak, Bridge To Indians, Part 1 Tag, Pickup To Third Verse). These must have been intended for HAV at one time, since they were recorded as "HAV". From Jan. '67 on, Brian Wilson recorded sections for the Cantina mix we all know. This is a completed mix from Feb. '67 and can possibly be considered as a difinitive Smile version. There were still other parts recorded, such as the chorus and a new intro and fade, and various part 2 sections. The chorus was used in the Smiley Smile version, but still many recorded sections remained unused. Then there's the discussion about a possible Part 2. The fact that Brian Wilson recorded some sections under the name HAV Part 2, might indicate a Part 2 mix was considered. The Cantina track was first recorded as Part 2, but used in a "Part 1" mix.
So, all in all, we can't be sure what HAV would have lookd like around 1966/67. Very probably not all parts were going to be used, there were too many parts recorded for that. The Cantina mix seems to be a good definitve version from around fab. 67, but a few months later there Brian might have mixed another mixed (he did actually, for Smiley Smile). There was another version mixed/played, the BPWS/TSS version. This uses more sections that were recorded in 1966/67 than the Cantina or Smiley Smile mix.

Brian mixed some sections for HAV Part 2, even made an edit of three sections (on UM 17 and part of TSS, disc 4 track 24). This might be evidence for the existence of a HAV Part 2 at that time.

HAV Part 1 Vintage mixes:

Cantina mix (TSS 2-cd version), Smiley Smile mix (Smiley Smile), various rough mixes/edit experiments (UM17, HAV Sessions Vol. 2, TSS D4T24).

Part 2 Vintage mixes:

UM17 (also on TSS D4T24), various mono sections, possibly mixed (with reverb, edited) (HAV Sessions Vol. 2).

New mixes: TSS disc 1 mono mix, HAV Sections (GV Box, TSS), "Part 2" (TSS 2-cd version).
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What do you think, is there anything missing? I know there are probably many essays on Heroes And Villains but I thought I could try to make some sort of summary. Do you think I'm wrong at some points or missing some info, please correct me!

Paul

Yeah love this idea.

So is each track to only feature info on the authentic Brian edits where they exist, ie. the post for Heroes will basically list the February Cantina Edit, then the other partial edits (such as Gee and assorted part 2 sections with Swedish Frog spliced out), the trade-off Brian/Mike partial edit, the final Smiley edit BUT NO CONJECTURE. This could be a cool reference point for people wanting their Smile mixes to be as authentic as possible.

Or might the Heroes post have some kind of conjecture on the form of the song at different times such as this thread here:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11306.0.html

Either way it would certainly be useful to have some reference point where fanmixers have a springboard if they want to keep their edits as vintage as possible. I think the key will be to keep the info on each track concise and clear. I suspect people will post discussion in the other thread before too long and it will be confusing. Why not just have all the info for the tracks in the first post, and discussion below?

Hey Paul,

That info on H&V looks good, but dates for the mixes would be useful, and also a description of the contents, so for instance:

1/27/67 - Verse Edit Experiment - Verse 1 (Brian/Mike tradeoff), Verse 2 (Brian/Mike tradeoff), Bridge To Indians

2/10/67  - Cantina Mix - Verse 1, Verse 2, Barbershop section, In the Cantina, You're Under Arrest, My Children were Raised/Three Score & Five, Dum dum tape explosion, False Barnyard fade.

That way people can very quickly see what the contents of the vintage edits were on any given date. Just a thought.

Edit:

Also do we have dates for the Early Version Outtake Section edits? As I understand it these are vintage, and as follows:

1. Verse 1 (Brian/Mike tradeoff), Verse 2 (Brian/Mike tradeoff), Dum dum whistle, My Children Were Raised/Three Score & Five, barbershop section

2. In The Cantina, Woo woos

3. Gee, Dit dit dit handclaps, Swedish Frog spliced out, Dit dit dit hoof percussion

I love this idea as well, since I'm planning on being as authentic as possible when I get around to making a new Smile mix.  Thanks for getting this put together guys.

Any info on the "Fire" tapes?  I believe there is a mono mix from 66' floating around out there which segues take 8 (the master?) with take 18 of the tag.  This mix features the crackling fire overdub.

I know that Brian didn't prepare stereo mixes but I'm trying to remember if there is anything (stereo or mono) that segues take 8 with take 18/tag without the crackling fire overdub?  SOT 16 fades out early if my memory is serving me correctly?

Hi John Mill, there is indeed a Fire mono mix with sound effects, an edit of take 2, 9 and 18 if I'm correct. (That's what the booklet of TSS says (although that version is extended, 1 more verse, it sounds very much the same), so I think that's correct.) There is no stereo mix, but there is take 2 in stereo from bootlegs, lesser quality on Archaeology and UM17, better quality but faded out on UM16. There is a stereo assembly on Archaeology and Secret Smile, which might be vintage, which doesn't use take 9 I believe but uses quite a long version of some take (take 2? I have to check this tomorrow) which ends at some point, and after some edit noises take 18 starts.

Hi buddhahat, yeah we could do that. Tomorrow I'll modify my posts in the other thread and then we could discuss the info in the first post below the first post. I don't know how much words one can have in a post, but I can keep my second post as a spare empty post when the first one is full.

I'd also be interested in a comprehensive list of evrything known for certain to have gone missing.  An exhaustive search has been done, I am assuming, for missing/stolen/lost tapes.  Some things were found (I guess), others were discovered, but what's been missing and remains so?  I can think of a few off the top of my head,  the book with the box mentions of few. 

You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I remember reading in 2002 in the smileshop archives that a mix of Wind Chimes and a mix of Wonderful were completed and marked "FINAL" back in 66/67.  Both mixes were duplicated by Linnett for the GV boxset, and thus they are mimicing Brian's orignal intent for the songs...    

That version of "Wonderful" was considered final?  Funny how people used to swear it was just a demo or at best had only a guide vocal.  Where does the evidence come from that that was Brian's mix of "Wind Chimes"?  I ask this on various boards and never get a response.  Just curious how people know this.

SOT mono mixes for "Fire" and "Water Chant" -- legit?

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11647.0.html

Feel free to add some more, I'm going on memory there.

Smile was always changing, and even things considered "finished" would receive later work.

Just to let you know, I edited my two posts in the Info Thread so that we can continue discussing there, and keep all the information there. So please continue over here! :

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11641.0.html

The next song we're trying to get a complete song structure/vintage mixes and edits list from is going to be HAV I think.
(But of course discussion about any song is a good contribution to the database, we'll make a nice and comprehensive post from it)