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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: punkinhead on October 24, 2011, 08:54:51 AM



Title: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: punkinhead on October 24, 2011, 08:54:51 AM
Todd Van Buskirk has "written" False Barnyard, Bridge to Indians, and Fade to Vegetables...Has anyone seen this? I tried searching to see if this had been mentioned yet...it looks like a bunch of posts from the Hoffman board about smile on a "novel like book"

http://www.amazon.com/Todd-Van-Buskirk/e/B005KWBPRU/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_1


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: punkinhead on October 24, 2011, 08:56:00 AM
I just saw "books" for Wild Honey in Stereo and Remember the Zoo....strange


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: rab2591 on October 24, 2011, 08:57:38 AM
LOL. Did you read the review for 'False Barnyard'?

"Use my SHTV posts, I sue your a***....

Isn't this a cute idea? Don't know what you're thinking, pal, but if you use any of my posts in print from the "Hoffman Forum" without my permission, expect a lawsuit coming your way."


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 24, 2011, 09:05:34 AM
Very odd idea for a book...


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: onkster on October 24, 2011, 09:10:55 AM
I sure wish there were a better name for "False Barnyard"...


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: punkinhead on October 24, 2011, 10:11:14 AM
LOL. Did you read the review for 'False Barnyard'?

"Use my SHTV posts, I sue your a***....

Isn't this a cute idea? Don't know what you're thinking, pal, but if you use any of my posts in print from the "Hoffman Forum" without my permission, expect a lawsuit coming your way."
yeah i saw that

and you can look inside the book! It's all jumbled together


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: punkinhead on October 24, 2011, 11:43:56 AM
Sweetish Frog is a book as well


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Aegir on October 24, 2011, 02:12:30 PM
yeah, it's just some guy taking a bunch of posts on the Hoffman Smile thread and selling them as books.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Fall Breaks on October 24, 2011, 02:21:37 PM
And people buy that?


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Aegir on October 24, 2011, 03:27:56 PM
probably not?


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: theCOD on October 24, 2011, 03:38:56 PM
What a scumbag.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Tricycle Rider on October 24, 2011, 04:10:06 PM
I sure wish there were a better name for "False Barnyard"...

There is!

My Only Sunshine Pt. 2  :)


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 24, 2011, 04:19:00 PM
From Amazon.com
Editorial Reviews
Review
"That's one of the weirdest things I have seen on the net in a long time."--stevehoffman.tv/forums

"It's like...'Ulysses!' The second bit! Only minus the sex!"--stevehoffman.tv/forums

"Oh my god...what the hell is this?"--stevehoffman.tv/forums
Product Description
The Beach Boys “Smile Sessions” box set has caused much internet discussion and debate among fans of the legendary unfinished album “SMiLE” from 1966/67. Pages and pages of internet scholarly debate contrast with mindless banter and is a fascinating look into a pure obsession the author also shares.

Appropriation novelist Todd Van Buskirk’s latest project is copy/pasting choice “SMiLE” debates and information about the album from the internet, word for word, into a word document in order to construct a series of novels, created by incorporating the copy/paste function in Microsoft Word.

To create “Bridge To Indians” Todd Van Buskirk navigated to the now defunct “Smile Shop” website and found a section called “Notable Quotes” collected from certain key players involved in the drama of “SMiLE.” The author took these quotes, word for word, and expanded and mixed the text with a Markov Text Synthesizer to construct a dreamy narrative culled from the actual dramatis personae involved in the mystery that is “SMiLE.”.



Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: hypehat on October 24, 2011, 04:26:20 PM
Appropriation Novelist?


What an arsehole.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Barnshine on October 24, 2011, 04:29:46 PM
From Amazon.com
Editorial Reviews
Review
"That's one of the weirdest things I have seen on the net in a long time."--stevehoffman.tv/forums

"It's like...'Ulysses!' The second bit! Only minus the sex!"--stevehoffman.tv/forums

"Oh my god...what the hell is this?"--stevehoffman.tv/forums
Product Description
The Beach Boys “Smile Sessions” box set has caused much internet discussion and debate among fans of the legendary unfinished album “SMiLE” from 1966/67. Pages and pages of internet scholarly debate contrast with mindless banter and is a fascinating look into a pure obsession the author also shares.

Appropriation novelist Todd Van Buskirk’s latest project is copy/pasting choice “SMiLE” debates and information about the album from the internet, word for word, into a word document in order to construct a series of novels, created by incorporating the copy/paste function in Microsoft Word.

To create “Bridge To Indians” Todd Van Buskirk navigated to the now defunct “Smile Shop” website and found a section called “Notable Quotes” collected from certain key players involved in the drama of “SMiLE.” The author took these quotes, word for word, and expanded and mixed the text with a Markov Text Synthesizer to construct a dreamy narrative culled from the actual dramatis personae involved in the mystery that is “SMiLE.”.



The man's crazy!


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on October 24, 2011, 08:09:33 PM
It's an interesting idea though the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of thing has been around for decades and it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning - it has all sorts of other values that we typically ignore in our desire to make sense of the world.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: John Stivaktas on October 25, 2011, 02:16:28 AM
Interesting. When's this dude bringing out 'Sleep A Lot' because that explains how interesting I find the premise to his novels. ::) ::)


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: hypehat on October 25, 2011, 03:02:42 AM
It's an interesting idea though the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of thing has been around for decades and it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning - it has all sorts of other values that we typically ignore in our desire to make sense of the world.

I understand it in a similar sort of way as automatic writing, or something - just sheer language. Which can be good. But the execution is less than pleasing....


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on October 25, 2011, 07:47:43 AM
It's an interesting idea though the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of thing has been around for decades and it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning - it has all sorts of other values that we typically ignore in our desire to make sense of the world.

I understand it in a similar sort of way as automatic writing, or something - just sheer language. Which can be good. But the execution is less than pleasing....

Yeah, I agree. Plus this sort of thing has been done relentlessly. I get the Derridian instability of language. I get the significance of language experiments to free us from formal constraints. I get the ability that technology has in undermining or complicating the authority of the author figure. So what new is the book telling me?


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: SG7 on October 30, 2011, 09:10:00 AM
Simply put: he is trying to make money off people like you  ;D


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: punkinhead on October 30, 2011, 10:25:09 AM
Simply put: he is trying to make money off people like you  ;D
I don't know if you're referring to me...but he ain't making money off me!
Remember, I'm the guy who prints out everything and then files it...most everything,....not forum junk


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: SG7 on October 30, 2011, 11:14:40 AM
No pumpkinhead, not you. I meant the guy who was putting out these "books."


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on October 30, 2011, 11:53:06 AM
So the writer of the books is trying to make money off of himself?


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: hypehat on October 30, 2011, 12:44:52 PM
It's foolproof!  :lol


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on October 30, 2011, 12:57:53 PM
He'll break even


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on October 30, 2011, 01:54:35 PM
It's an interesting idea though the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of thing has been around for decades and it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning - it has all sorts of other values that we typically ignore in our desire to make sense of the world.

You explain my work better than me!

Thanks for your consideration. I really do appreciate folks taking some notice of my work. I appropriate all kinds of stuff.

Writing is hard, copying is easy.

The text for the SMiLE series is taken from a few online sources (as indicated in the product descriptions), and mixed up accordingly (as wanted or needed). It's my personal love letter to SMiLE and it's community.

Anyone can do this, but not many do!


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: debonbon on October 30, 2011, 08:34:09 PM
As the old saying goes, just because you can doesn't mean you should.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on October 31, 2011, 01:29:56 PM
As the old saying goes, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Indeed!

(http://cdn.epicski.com/9/9a/400x400px-LL-9af691bb_321145_236525953071034_206526152737681_703319_1498779889_n.jpeg)



Dragged into the Land of the Dead thin cobalt sky, a psychic contrail suspended in the high, thin stratosphere, an icy cirrus cloud of chaos, in lurid intervals of narcissistic horror, an enormous radiant fog of visual rumors and nonsense of the everyday, the incredible sight of a white clock dial bleeding through the thin cobalt sky, an obscene territory of winged demons, aerial creatures bearing branded vials of amputated ghost parts, porcelain cobalt heaven, viewing the golden coronas of uneven and prepared genetic amplifiers, walking uselessly through the the golden coronas of uneven and prepared genetic amplifiers, walking uselessly through the neurotic oily winds, listening of the beauty of chaos, in lurid intervals of narcissistic horror, an enormous radiant branded vials of amputated ghost parts, decaying metallic reek of bankrupt snake skins, to the inner world, the world of fire, the world behind the masonry walls winds, listening to the rasping wings of hysterical tidal birds, feeling the sluggish tropic flames the pulpit and moths consuming the flag and an important discovery of why so many golden coronas of uneven and prepared genetic amplifiers, walking uselessly through the neurotic oily winds, listening and dreams, a place lost in space and time, a place of mute beaches where footsteps back of the hand hatch into hungry wolf spiders, which proceed to strip the flesh from bones, image of the horned creature automobile with a factory-installed means of listening to the Deity, a way out of his prison and off the forsaken island he calls Marienbad in the man who is gone but not forgotten, a murder by pittance rage, an image heap of a tragic, dead age when the walls start bleeding, Nazi paratroopers land outside the inner sea with a riptide, a warning against swimming without a prophet on duty of the beauty of chaos, in lurid intervals of narcissistic horror, an enormous radiant fog of visual waste, giant mounds of smoldering linen mummy casings, a broken stone indicator of the final extinguished penetration of the beauty of chaos, in lurid intervals of narcissistic horror, an enormous winged demons, aerial creatures bearing branded vials of amputated ghost parts, decaying metallic pickled sea monsters caught just a few yards from here in the roiling surf, upon sand so profound, so deep, that one perceives no step while looking up at the eastern alien spaceship or perhaps a sign from the Deity, His divine pocket watch, of the Dead beyond Patmosian exile, giving credit to the inner world, the world of fire, step while looking up at the eastern heavens at the incredible sight of being dragged into the Land of the Dead beyond Patmosian exile, giving credit to the inner threadbare Egyptians, of heretical transformations occurring behind jagged DNA dream codes and splotched an obscene territory of winged demons, aerial creatures bearing branded vials of amputated ghost out of his prison and off the forsaken island he calls Marienbad in the bones, a quantity of tainted celluloid on the cutting room floor, a jar of pickled sea monsters Egyptians, of heretical transformations occurring behind jagged DNA dream codes and splotched sallow through anxious gaunt smirks where a shower of glittering emerald flakes descends unhurried to be alive are really dead inside the filmmaker’s unrequited love interest as he searches to the inner world, the world of fire, the world behind the masonry walls of the everyday, tunes of homicidal alien bewilderment, of old coins and fermented blood, of desiccated cats and threadbare Egyptians and MORE!


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: theCOD on October 31, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
It's an interesting idea though the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of thing has been around for decades and it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning - it has all sorts of other values that we typically ignore in our desire to make sense of the world.

Plus this sort of thing has been done relentlessly. I get the Derridian instability of language. I get the significance of language experiments to free us from formal constraints. I get the ability that technology has in undermining or complicating the authority of the author figure. So what new is the book telling me?

As the old saying goes, just because you can doesn't mean you should.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on October 31, 2011, 02:08:34 PM
It's an interesting idea though the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of thing has been around for decades and it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning - it has all sorts of other values that we typically ignore in our desire to make sense of the world.

Plus this sort of thing has been done relentlessly. I get the Derridian instability of language. I get the significance of language experiments to free us from formal constraints. I get the ability that technology has in undermining or complicating the authority of the author figure. So what new is the book telling me?

As the old saying goes, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Beautiful! See?

“It's an important movement that technology has been around for decades and it in undermining or complicating the premise to free us from formal constraints. I get the significance of the significance of an important movement that explains how interesting I find the Derridian instability of understanding that language does things other values that understands the Derridian instability of way as books.”

 “Very odd idea though the Derridian instability of language. I get the premise to free us from formal constraints. I find the premise to make money off people buy that?”

 “yeah, it's just sheer language. Which can be good. But the ability that we typically ignore in our desire to his novels.”

“Interesting. When's this dude bringing out 'Sleep A Lot' because that language experiments to make meaning - just some guy taking a bunch of the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of way as books.”


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: theCOD on October 31, 2011, 02:33:03 PM
It's an interesting idea though the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of thing has been around for decades and it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning - it has all sorts of other values that we typically ignore in our desire to make sense of the world.

Plus this sort of thing has been done relentlessly. I get the Derridian instability of language. I get the significance of language experiments to free us from formal constraints. I get the ability that technology has in undermining or complicating the authority of the author figure. So what new is the book telling me?

As the old saying goes, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Beautiful! See?

I totally do. It's too bad we have all those pesky copyright laws that prevent you from appropriating music and pawning it off as your own. Oh well. At least there's one medium where you can legally steal from people and make a profit off those who don't know any better.

I do love it how you refer to this as your "work." Do you consider yourself an artist?


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on October 31, 2011, 03:39:00 PM
It's an interesting idea though the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of thing has been around for decades and it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning - it has all sorts of other values that we typically ignore in our desire to make sense of the world.

Plus this sort of thing has been done relentlessly. I get the Derridian instability of language. I get the significance of language experiments to free us from formal constraints. I get the ability that technology has in undermining or complicating the authority of the author figure. So what new is the book telling me?

As the old saying goes, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Beautiful! See?

I totally do. It's too bad we have all those pesky copyright laws that prevent you from appropriating music and pawning it off as your own. Oh well. At least there's one medium where you can legally steal from people and make a profit off those who don't know any better.

I do love it how you refer to this as your "work." Do you consider yourself an artist?

With appropriated literature, it all depends how one uses the appropriated material or "work" ;0

As for artist? Yes I do, in my "spare mind". 



Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on October 31, 2011, 09:39:45 PM

I totally do. It's too bad we have all those pesky copyright laws

Which are entirely illegitimate incidentally.

Quote
that prevent you from appropriating music and pawning it off as your own. Oh well. At least there's one medium where you can legally steal from people and make a profit off those who don't know any better.

I do love it how you refer to this as your "work." Do you consider yourself an artist?

You are joking, right?


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: theCOD on October 31, 2011, 10:09:27 PM
You are joking, right?

Ugh. No, I'm not joking. Please enlighten me. Explain the deeper meaning of his response to debonbon.

This guy might just be too clever for me.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on November 01, 2011, 06:56:42 AM
You are joking, right?

Ugh. No, I'm not joking. Please enlighten me. Explain the deeper meaning of his response to debonbon.

To quote myself:"it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning."

I suggest maybe considering what one of the most important books of the 20th Century, James Joyce's Finnegans Wake, might be doing, apart from stealing other people's work or maybe WHY it's stealing other people's work. After that, you can look at concrete poems by people like Apollinaire. You can then look at plunder poetry. Or how about works by important theorists like Michel Foucault and Roland Barthes who interrogate the very idea of authorship. There's nothing new about this - these are very significant ideas that have been motivating literature since the beginning of the 20th century.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: punkinhead on November 01, 2011, 08:02:15 AM
Some people have too much pride


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on November 01, 2011, 01:53:56 PM
Yup, nothing new at all, and appropriation is seen more in the visual arts and music then literature.

Nothing proud about it, it's just uncreating and having a lot of fun being uncreative.



Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on November 01, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
Some people have too much pride


I also love the quotes you appropriated for your signature!

"Someone needs to tell Adrian Baker that imitation isn't innovation." -The Real Beach Boy

"I had to Chase the Sun" -Midnight's Another Day

http://youtu.be/EwtBKftbgjc  -I'm still in awe of how spiritual and spine tingling this performance is, especially right at 4:52

”If it doesn’t subside, I’m gonna call the cops.”-Brian Wilson on smog

"Your sister's gone out, she's on a date, and you just sit at home and masterbate." -William Joel

"Turn on your radio, baby, Listen to my song turn on your night light baby, baby I'm gone" -Harry Nilsson

"Holy Booze, Slow Man"


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 01, 2011, 03:40:35 PM
Some people have too much pride


I also love the quotes you appropriated for your signature!

"Someone needs to tell Adrian Baker that imitation isn't innovation." -The Real Beach Boy

"I had to Chase the Sun" -Midnight's Another Day

http://youtu.be/EwtBKftbgjc  -I'm still in awe of how spiritual and spine tingling this performance is, especially right at 4:52

”If it doesn’t subside, I’m gonna call the cops.”-Brian Wilson on smog

"Your sister's gone out, she's on a date, and you just sit at home and masterbate." -William Joel

"Turn on your radio, baby, Listen to my song turn on your night light baby, baby I'm gone" -Harry Nilsson

"Holy Booze, Slow Man"


Those are quotes that punkinhead has referenced properly with the authors for a personal profile. All your doing is stealing other people's quotes without permission and just trying to make a quick buck off the Hoffman board discusions in the name of "art".





Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on November 01, 2011, 03:54:42 PM
Some people have too much pride


I also love the quotes you appropriated for your signature!

"Someone needs to tell Adrian Baker that imitation isn't innovation." -The Real Beach Boy
"I had to Chase the Sun" -Midnight's Another Day

http://youtu.be/EwtBKftbgjc  -I'm still in awe of how spiritual and spine tingling this performance is, especially right at 4:52

”If it doesn’t subside, I’m gonna call the cops.”-Brian Wilson on smog

"Your sister's gone out, she's on a date, and you just sit at home and masterbate." -William Joel

"Turn on your radio, baby, Listen to my song turn on your night light baby, baby I'm gone" -Harry Nilsson

"Holy Booze, Slow Man"




Those are quotes that punkinhead has referenced properly with the authors for a personal profile. All your doing is stealing other people's message board quotes without permission and just trying to make a quick buck off the Hoffman board discusions in the name of "art".




All the posts taken word for word from the Hoffman board are remixed and cut up, thus creating a new communication, yet my work is not readible in terms of information. It is thinkable rather than readable. My harvested words are junk and handled as such.



Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on November 01, 2011, 04:33:24 PM
It's an interesting idea though the execution isn't wonderful. This sort of thing has been around for decades and it is part of an important movement that understands the significance of understanding that language does things other than make meaning - it has all sorts of other values that we typically ignore in our desire to make sense of the world.

Plus this sort of thing has been done relentlessly. I get the Derridian instability of language. I get the significance of language experiments to free us from formal constraints. I get the ability that technology has in undermining or complicating the authority of the author figure. So what new is the book telling me?

As the old saying goes, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Beautiful! See?

I totally do. It's too bad we have all those pesky copyright laws that prevent you from appropriating music and pawning it off as your own. Oh well. At least there's one medium where you can legally steal from people and make a profit off those who don't know any better.

I do love it how you refer to this as your "work." Do you consider yourself an artist?

We may have had our differences theCOD, but I'm with you on this one.

Pretentious twoddle. No Leo, you're not an artist. Anyone could do this. And they already have.





Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on November 01, 2011, 04:46:31 PM

Pretentious twoddle.

How so?

Quote
No Leo, you're not an artist. Anyone could do this. And they already have.

"Anyone could do this" is probably the least valid critique of any work of art. And the fact that others have tried language experiments doesn't prevent others from trying it too. Do you likewise write off sonnets because Petrarch did it first? Wordsworth and Shakespeare should be considered less worthy of attention? Are you going to actually stand by these statements with a straight face?


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on November 01, 2011, 05:04:20 PM

Pretentious twoddle.

How so?

Quote
No Leo, you're not an artist. Anyone could do this. And they already have.

"Anyone could do this" is probably the least valid critique of any work of art. And the fact that others have tried language experiments doesn't prevent others from trying it too. Do you likewise write off sonnets because Petrarch did it first? Wordsworth and Shakespeare should be considered less worthy of attention? Are you going to actually stand by these statements with a straight face?

Yes.

I spend months and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and sells it.

I do not agree with the premise that all art is equally valid, and that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy

That is just the current fashionable thinking.

Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy.

The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art was making a valid point, the second guy..... not so much

My opinion is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not art.

Art requires talent and mastery.

My face is straight, believe me



Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on November 01, 2011, 05:22:33 PM

I spend months and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and sells it.

In other words, you are making a reductive claim about what he does in order to discredit it.

Quote
I do not agree with the premise that all art is equally valid, and that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy

What do you mean by valid, and worthy of what? I might agree if you said that not all art is equally good, but what do you mean worthy? Who gets to decides whether or not art is worthy? We start walking into dangerous territory the moment we start to seriously consider a question like that.

Quote
That is just the current fashionable thinking.

By current, do you mean the late 19th Century, when, say, Van Gogh virtually took Japanese images wholesale in making his art? Or current like 1922, when T.S. Eliot compiled hundreds of sources to put together The Wasteland?

Quote
Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy.

Or, perhaps you didn't understand the analogy which is precisely the case here. Sure, sonnets require mastery of craft and so do language experiments. In both cases there are some that are better, more thoughtful, more interesting, politically charged (etc.) than others. Regardless, that's not to the point. Since I wasn't responding to a point you made about mastery of craft, I fail to see why you should bring it up now. You were attempting to delegitimize this person's work precisely because what he is attempting to do has been done before. Regardless of mastery of craft, poets chose to use the sonnet form constantly over centuries because it was a particular form that helped express particular ideas. Some were good at it, some were bad. But no one was bad it because they were using the well-tried sonnet form - an argument that collapses instantaneously when you look at poets who used the sonnet form and were good at it. So as far as I'm concerned, this remark about my analogy is just a bunch of smoke being blown.

Quote
The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art was making a valid point, the second guy..... not so much

Please name the second guy.

Quote
My opinion is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not art.

And who are you to judge what constitues art and what doesn't?



Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on November 01, 2011, 05:25:43 PM

Pretentious twoddle.

How so?

Quote
No Leo, you're not an artist. Anyone could do this. And they already have.

"Anyone could do this" is probably the least valid critique of any work of art. And the fact that others have tried language experiments doesn't prevent others from trying it too. Do you likewise write off sonnets because Petrarch did it first? Wordsworth and Shakespeare should be considered less worthy of attention? Are you going to actually stand by these statements with a straight face?

Yes.

I spend months and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and sells it.

I do not agree with the premise that all art is equally valid, and that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy

That is just the current fashionable thinking.

Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy.

The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art was making a valid point, the second guy..... not so much

My opinion is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not art.

Art requires talent and mastery.

My face is straight, believe me



Anyone can do it, but nobody does!

It's hard to write, it's easy to copy! And I love this.

Modernism and postmodernism are over, and the literary arts have entered a new technology-driven paradigm. Originality is out the window. Writers don’t need to write anything more, they just need to manage the language that already exists.





Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on November 01, 2011, 05:34:00 PM

Pretentious twoddle.

How so?

Quote
No Leo, you're not an artist. Anyone could do this. And they already have.

"Anyone could do this" is probably the least valid critique of any work of art. And the fact that others have tried language experiments doesn't prevent others from trying it too. Do you likewise write off sonnets because Petrarch did it first? Wordsworth and Shakespeare should be considered less worthy of attention? Are you going to actually stand by these statements with a straight face?

Yes.

I spend months and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and sells it.

I do not agree with the premise that all art is equally valid, and that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy

That is just the current fashionable thinking.

Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy.

The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art was making a valid point, the second guy..... not so much

My opinion is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not art.

Art requires talent and mastery.

My face is straight, believe me



Your words are poetry!

Yes. I do not agree with the premise that all art was making a valid point, the second guy..... not so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art was making a sh*t in an art is equally valid, and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and months and sells it. I spend months and mastery. My face is this. If anyone can do not agree with the premise that wasn't such a valid point, the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and called it art was making a good analogy. The first guy who took a good analogy. The first guy who took a valid point, the second guy..... not agree with the premise that everyone's creative expression is this. If anyone can do not so perhaps that everyone's creative expression is just the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so much My face is somehow worthy That is equally valid, and called it art gallery and sells it. I do not so perhaps that all art was making a sh*t in an art was making a valid point, the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art is straight, believe me Yes. I do it, then it's not so perhaps that wasn't such a valid point, the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and mastery. My opinion is straight, believe me Yes. I do not agree with the premise that all art is equally valid, and called it art gallery and mastery. My face is this. If anyone can do not agree with the second guy..... not agree with the premise that everyone's creative expression is straight, believe me Yes. I spend months and sells it. I spend months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and called it art was making a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art was making a good analogy. The first guy who took a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art was making a sh*t in an art gallery and months and mastery. My face is straight, believe me Yes. I do it, then it's not art. Art requires talent and called it art is somehow worthy That is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not so much My face is equally valid, and sells it. I do not art. Art requires talent and mastery. My face is just the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and sells it. I do it, then it's not so perhaps that wasn't such a valid point, the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and sells it. I spend months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and mastery. My face is somehow worthy That is somehow worthy That is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not so perhaps that all art is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and months and that everyone's creative expression is this. If anyone can do not so much My opinion is straight, believe me Yes. I do it, then it's not agree with the premise that all art gallery and months and mastery. My face is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not agree with the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so much My face is just the premise that everyone's creative expression is equally valid, and that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art gallery and months and that all art gallery and that wasn't such a valid point, the premise that all art gallery and that everyone's creative expression is just the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so much My face is somehow worthy That is straight, believe me Yes. I do it, then it's not so perhaps that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy That is straight, believe me Yes. I do not art. Art requires talent and mastery. My face is this. If anyone can do not agree with the second guy..... not so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art was making a valid point, the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so much My face is just the second guy..... not agree with the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and mastery. My opinion is somehow worthy That is equally valid, and that wasn't such a sh*t in an art was making a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and months and sells it. I do it, then it's not agree with the premise that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy That is equally valid, and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art was making a sh*t in an art is somehow worthy That is somehow worthy That is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not so much My opinion is this.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: runnersdialzero on November 01, 2011, 05:40:31 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QEod3ckcQ4Y/TkpKttrJB5I/AAAAAAAAGzo/B8PYotwScpM/s400/What+the+frig+am+I+reading.jpg)


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 01, 2011, 05:46:57 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QEod3ckcQ4Y/TkpKttrJB5I/AAAAAAAAGzo/B8PYotwScpM/s400/What+the+frig+am+I+reading.jpg)
Well said  :lol


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on November 01, 2011, 05:56:46 PM

Pretentious twoddle.

How so?

Quote
No Leo, you're not an artist. Anyone could do this. And they already have.

"Anyone could do this" is probably the least valid critique of any work of art. And the fact that others have tried language experiments doesn't prevent others from trying it too. Do you likewise write off sonnets because Petrarch did it first? Wordsworth and Shakespeare should be considered less worthy of attention? Are you going to actually stand by these statements with a straight face?

Yes.

I spend months and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and sells it.

I do not agree with the premise that all art is equally valid, and that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy

That is just the current fashionable thinking.

Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy.

The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art was making a valid point, the second guy..... not so much

My opinion is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not art.

Art requires talent and mastery.

My face is straight, believe me



Anyone can do it, but nobody does!

My opinion is similar to yours. It's hard to write, it's easy to copy! And I love this.

Modernism and postmodernism are over, and the literary arts have entered a new technology-driven paradigm. Originality is out the window. Writers don’t need to write anything more, they just need to manage the language that already exists.





Respectfully,  "everything's already been done" is an arguement thrown out by people who don't have the imagination, talent and guts to try to create something unique and new.

We are living in an age fuelled by money, where mediocrity is king. True creative innovation is stifled by the deluge of talentless nobodies with heads full of the notion that everyone is an artist and all expressions of creativity are valid and equal.

They are not

Strumming a few chords and droning on top with a melody comprising of three notes is not as creatively valid as composing a four voice fugue

Taking a crap on a piece of canvas and saying it signifies the plight of modern man is not as creatively valid as as painting a finely detailed, perfect realised oil painting.

Cutting and pasting other peoples words and then selling it is not as creatively valid as spending months working out a complex plot then furnishing it with wonderful prose.

So why not take these criticisms in a positive way, and sit down and write an original work. Prove me wrong.

And there is always a new direction to take, believe me, I'm taking it.  



Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on November 01, 2011, 06:18:50 PM

Pretentious twoddle.

How so?

Quote
No Leo, you're not an artist. Anyone could do this. And they already have.

"Anyone could do this" is probably the least valid critique of any work of art. And the fact that others have tried language experiments doesn't prevent others from trying it too. Do you likewise write off sonnets because Petrarch did it first? Wordsworth and Shakespeare should be considered less worthy of attention? Are you going to actually stand by these statements with a straight face?

Yes.

I spend months and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and sells it.

I do not agree with the premise that all art is equally valid, and that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy

That is just the current fashionable thinking.

Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy.

The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art was making a valid point, the second guy..... not so much

My opinion is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not art.

Art requires talent and mastery.

My face is straight, believe me



Your words are poetry!

Yes. I do not agree with the premise that all art was making a valid point, the second guy..... not so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art was making a sh*t in an art is equally valid, and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and months and sells it. I spend months and mastery. My face is this. If anyone can do not agree with the premise that wasn't such a valid point, the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and called it art was making a good analogy. The first guy who took a good analogy. The first guy who took a valid point, the second guy..... not agree with the premise that everyone's creative expression is this. If anyone can do not so perhaps that everyone's creative expression is just the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so much My face is somehow worthy That is equally valid, and called it art gallery and sells it. I do not so perhaps that all art was making a sh*t in an art was making a valid point, the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art is straight, believe me Yes. I do it, then it's not so perhaps that wasn't such a valid point, the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and mastery. My opinion is straight, believe me Yes. I do not agree with the premise that all art is equally valid, and called it art gallery and mastery. My face is this. If anyone can do not agree with the second guy..... not agree with the premise that everyone's creative expression is straight, believe me Yes. I spend months and sells it. I spend months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and called it art was making a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art was making a good analogy. The first guy who took a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art was making a sh*t in an art gallery and months and mastery. My face is straight, believe me Yes. I do it, then it's not art. Art requires talent and called it art is somehow worthy That is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not so much My face is equally valid, and sells it. I do not art. Art requires talent and mastery. My face is just the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and sells it. I do it, then it's not so perhaps that wasn't such a valid point, the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and sells it. I spend months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and mastery. My face is somehow worthy That is somehow worthy That is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not so perhaps that all art is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and months and that everyone's creative expression is this. If anyone can do not so much My opinion is straight, believe me Yes. I do it, then it's not agree with the premise that all art gallery and months and mastery. My face is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not agree with the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so much My face is just the premise that everyone's creative expression is equally valid, and that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art gallery and months and that all art gallery and that wasn't such a valid point, the premise that all art gallery and that everyone's creative expression is just the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so much My face is somehow worthy That is straight, believe me Yes. I do it, then it's not so perhaps that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy That is straight, believe me Yes. I do not art. Art requires talent and mastery. My face is this. If anyone can do not agree with the second guy..... not so perhaps that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art was making a valid point, the current fashionable thinking. Sonnets require mastery of your craft, so much My face is just the second guy..... not agree with the second guy..... not art. Art requires talent and mastery. My opinion is somehow worthy That is equally valid, and that wasn't such a sh*t in an art was making a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and months and sells it. I do it, then it's not agree with the premise that everyone's creative expression is somehow worthy That is equally valid, and months working on original material, he steals other peoples words and that wasn't such a good analogy. The first guy who took a good analogy. The first guy who took a sh*t in an art gallery and called it art was making a sh*t in an art is somehow worthy That is somehow worthy That is this. If anyone can do it, then it's not so much My opinion is this.

We had been driving for hours, and now we seemed to be completely and utterly butterly, but beyond where? I consulted the map which my mother had knitted out of bunny rabbits found squashed in the road, treated with extreme exposure for this reason. The room smelt of Buddy Holly's halitosis after the last outing. I saw the man undressing as he undressed. The woman watched as she transformed into a huge womble, hell bent out of all sharp nails, and still the man undressed. It was time to bring out the secret weapon, the Almighty Rod Of God which glowed like snails, as an image popped, spongelike in my tiny husband. It made me recall the final stages of the Tour De France, where I had once lost my lovely sandals to the greedy child of the alligators. That night I dreamt the dream of a pint. A pint of what I hear you cry. Well it was in fact a pint of nightmares and hinting of buttercups. A tremendous urge to throw myself from tallest lump of dirt covered rock in the entire country. It's sheer popularity made telekinetic eggs seem like old hat, but nevertheless I set off, undaunted, towards and beyond the future, which, as we all know hasn't grown in the deepest, darkest regions of North Yorkshire, and which has enlisted the help of the twisted evil happy henry champion clan all the way from the third cow-pat on the left before the haystack, which, it is said, has magical feet which he controls via a huge computer network stretching halfway round the mulberry bush and then back again in time for tea.  This caused him to be voted "the man most likely to upset the Earth's rotation by flooding the market with various, stalactite tipped Fun Boy Three albums.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: trismegistus on November 01, 2011, 06:45:11 PM
I totally do. It's too bad we have all those pesky copyright laws that prevent you from appropriating music and pawning it off as your own. Oh well. At least there's one medium where you can legally steal from people and make a profit off those who don't know any better.

I do love it how you refer to this as your "work." Do you consider yourself an artist?

Not to get involved in this discussion, but I did want to point out there there is a genre of music called "Plunderphonics" which is completely made up of samples of other people's work.


Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Leo K on November 02, 2011, 08:33:41 AM
Nice job iron horse, and well done.

We have different aesthetics and views on writing, and that's a great thing and makes the world go 'round! My writing is not meant to be read but yours obviously is, and that's ok by me. I have three traditionally written novels and the long hours and time it took to write them were great experiences. Now, I'm finding more happiness in conceptual art and that's where I'd rather be and where my sensibility lies.

The discussion here is very interesting and refreshing, and thanks to rock n roll too!



Title: Re: False Barnyard---the book?
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on November 02, 2011, 11:56:30 AM
Leo, please stop being so nice and reasonable whilst I'm trying to criticise you. It confuses me and makes me feel guilty. Not a good combination. :-D

But yes, different strokes for different folks and all that......