The Smiley Smile Message Board

I've been away and there's so many smile threads I can't find if this has been covered or not so apologies if I'm rehashing this.

Track times from the 2 cd set:

2.    Heroes and Villains: Part 1   (3:08)
3.    Heroes and Villains: Part 2   (4:18)

Along with the WH era Surf's Up, Heroes parts 1 & 2 is possibly the thing I'm most curious about as a long Heroes has always been my smile pipe dream.

Can anyone make sense of the track times? Part 1 is not the cantina mix as it's 11 seconds longer (incidentally, does the cantina mix feature on any of these smile releases? I can't find it scouring the tracklistings, but I must be mistaken).

It's obviously not the disc 1 edit as it's significantly shorter, or the classic 45 version.

Does the part 2 track time correlate with anything we know?

Dom Priore made quite a big deal out of Mark and Alan's detective work and how they managed to piece smile together for this new release (can't find the interview that mentions this - does anyone have the link please?). If Mark is largely following the blueprint for BWPS, I am curious what Priore means by this. It looks from the track times that Old Master Painter may have the barnshine fade reinstated so that could be one example of vintage sequencing and 'detective work', but this Heroes parts 1 & 2, one would hope, will be an example of Mark and Alan trying to sequence an as-historically-accurate-as-possible 2 sided Heroes & Villains.

I really hope the structure is informed by some evidence we haven't been privee to. Perhaps info from Brian/VDP/Mike/Al or even based on an acetate from their collections? Even if it's just guess work and conjecture based on session info, it will be cool if they try and give us an alternate long form Heroes. I was really hoping they don't just fall back on familiar mixes (Cantina edit + Heroes Sections) and the track times are looking like this won't be the case.

Anyone have any ideas from their own fan mixes, what they might have done with this?

I always thought the order of the vocal bits in Heroes Sections was based on the fact the masters were found on the same reel in that order, probably placed so by BW. I think I read that here, from Mark, but I wouldn't know where to look. Am reading the Linett thread (a goldmine, as we well know) and will report back.

It would appear - from my calculations -  that we will indeed get the Barnshine fade on the end of OMP/YAMS - the timings work out perfectly with the ML vocal part on top


YEAHH BABY

Careful, AGD might jump in your sh*t for using logic to hypothesize/speculate.  No fun allowed on this board!

Found it. It seems you've been curious about this for a while, buddhahat  ;D


So I guess it's not going to be that order..... Now I'm intrigued!

Mark said in the Billboard interview that a lot of the sequencing is being attempted using clues from Chuck on the tapes - "Heroes & Villains part two, revised version, take one", and all that, and from tape boxes..... So I guess you could attempt the same detective work, with what limited resources we have. Although as mentioned previously, I'm not going to attempt that - I'm on a Smile detox. Much more of this and I'll start posting like Ghost....  :lol

Soory can't help with H&V 1&2 but this may help with the rest

1. Our Prayer (1:06) -  probably same as GV box set version

2. Gee (0:51) -  normal with flutter horn?

3. Heroes And Villains (4:53) - we’ve heard

4. Do You Like Worms (Roll Plymouth Rock) (3:36) - 30 secs shorter than UM 16 - maybe this will shorten BR theme

5. I’m In Great Shape (0:29) - who knows but combine HH vocal and the backing track we’ve got then its 0:29ish

6. Barnyard (0:48) - same as acetate version

7. My Only Sunshine (The Old Master Painter / You Are My Sunshine) (1:57) - probably now with ‘Barnshine’ reinstalled as the third part - any musicians able to help - but timings match almost perfectly

8. Cabin Essence (3:32) - MOJO single?

9. Wonderful (2:04) - MOJO single?

10. Look (Song For Children) (2:31) -  same as UM 16 version - maybe vocals??

11. Child Is Father Of The Man (2:14) - who know CIFOTM is a tune that confuses the hell out of me

12. Surf’s Up (4:12) - 30 secs longer than GV Box Set version (SU album version)

13. I Wanna Be Around / Workshop (1:23) - slightly shorter than the UM version but not much

14. Vega-Tables (3:49)   again for me a complete blank 

15. Holidays (2:33)  - timings suggest normal version

16. Wind Chimes (3:06) - slight puzzle as this is longer than most ‘standard versions we know’ - although pretty close to UM 17 first vocal overdub track

17. The Elements: Fire (Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow) (2:35)  - likely to be the UM16 version with the H&V intro on it - whether it will have WW ox as well who knows

18. Love To Say Dada (2:32) -  not far from UM 16 version

19. Good Vibrations (4:13) -  we’ve got this

Ha ha! A Smile fanatic never rests!

The edit I was referring to is on UM vol 17 "How I Love My Girl (Vocal Overdub Take 10)". I presume this is a Brian edit - it's nearly identical to a portion of the GV box Heroes section track, running from Gee up to (but not including) the dum dum dum section. Swedish Frog has been spliced out (although we can hear that in position in another take). So I never understood Mark's response as it would seem that a large part of Heroes Sections is based on a vintage edit, and not just 'what sounds good together'.

And now to my pet theory:

We know Brian freaked about the dark vibe of Fire and wanted to scrap it in favour of a 'candle'. I wonder if a similar thing occurred to Heroes Part 2. I've always suspected that this B Side started life with the Heroes Intro as its intro, then possibly some of the minor key bicycle rider sections afterwards, and it might have had a darker, crazier feel than the A side (maybe the A Side represented the 'Heroes' and was humorous and light, and the B Side was the 'Villains', dark and unhinged. Ying and yang - I know Bill Tobleman is going to dig this theory!)

I think Brian (possibly, in light of his Fire freak out, wanting to ditch Heroes Intro with its obvious similarities to Fire) then reframed it as a much more upbeat b side, by kicking it off with Gee instead of the Intro, and swapping the darker, minor key bike rider riff for happy, major key variations. Admittedly this is largely conjecture but I'm fairly certain that both Heroes Intro and Gee were intros to the B side at different stages. This swap creates a definite mood change and possibly explains Brian's decision to create all those up-beat, major key variations of the bike rider riff.

On the subject of Fire, bad vibes, etc- there are more weird vibes on Fall Breaks than Fire.

Fire crackles along like a bad paranoia setting in. Is it fire engines or cops? Both! Oh god, run. I'm melting, dissolving, who am I? What is all this? Oh god that bass line, dum ba dim ba dum ba dum ba dim ba dum ba.

Fall Breaks is just... after the fire, at the mental institution, Brian plays the organ in the dining area for the other patients. Hey guys, come on, it's the Woody Woodpecker symphony! Everyone crowds around. Sing with me guys - imagine a candle instead of a huge fire -- ahhhh oooouuuuuoooooooohhhhh.

Using the GV box set version, i simply added the slow acapella "I know that you'll feel better" bit right after the Bop bop bop bop do-do-do do-do-do
part. The length of my mix is 3:49. Not saying that is what they've done for TSS, but it's a possibility.

I think you're definitely on the right track here.  I just listened to that How I Love My Girl track, and if that's a Brian edit (as, like you said, we can presume it was) it would seem that Mark's sequencing wasn't too far off the mark that Brian was aiming for.  I swear I read something once about him taking cues from Brian's instructions to the band on the tapes regarding the sequence though, or something like hypehat said about the reels having markers where splices were intended.  Mark's edit certainly doesn't seem random, in any case, so I'm a bit perplexed by that answer.  Makes me all the more curious to hear what they've done on the box set.

As for Part 1, my guess is that it'll essentially be the Cantina mix with the "woo woo" section inserted, along with another little snippet somewhere.  Hopefully I'm wrong, and they've made a new mix based on an acetate or something, as you said.

Just for giggles, I'd like to also add that it's possible Brian himself still remembers some of it, or more than he's publicly let on.  You never know.  He might have set down with Mark and told him exactly what order it was in.  I doubt it, but it's possible. 

I'd say you are correct sir.

Bicycle rider, any hopes/ predictions for this two parted heroes edit? I k ow it's a point of interest for you!

Part 1 is pretty close to the timing of the cantina version - with the "woo woo woo" s added.   Part 2 I expect to be a combination of the " sections" from the UM Brian edit plus prelude to fade and the rerecorded fade with Carl singing.  Just a guess though.

Yeah, I'm gonna say Part 1 is probably the "Cantina mix" with something different different from the versions we've heard that makes it longer, possibly something that Brian mentioned to Mark/Alan and therefore made it more accurate.

And Part 2, I'm probably gonna guess is the "sections" thing in whatever order he had on the tape originally or whatever.

I'd LOVE to be wrong though. I really really hope Part 1 is something totally different, but seeing as though we apparently see no mention of the "Alternate Take" as it was labeled on Smiley Smile/Wild Honey two-fer, I'm assuming this is where we'll find "at three score and five". But hopefully there'll be some revelation hidden in this mix that makes it different though, as I said.

I 100% remember reading this too, somewhere, many years ago, in an interview with Linnett, or perhaps on an old Usenet group.

--Phil

That was my thinking as well - given that no other completed version is listed (and there's no way the "Cantina" mix wouldn't be included somewhere), it stands to reason that most, if not all, of it's elements (no pun intended) will appear in the single mix of Part 1.  It makes sense, as that's the only version we know of that Brian completed and almost put out during the Smile sessions proper.

Sadly, the 4:18 length of Part Two corresponds exactly to Bridge to Indians + Soul Made Beautiful + Gee + repeating Heroes sections (including Swedish frogs) + Cantina fade.  In other words, the final 4:18 of H&V Sections on the box set.

Hopefully that's just a coincidence.

That would be a shame, especially as soul made beautiful has been put to better use in the disc 1 edit of Heroes. That bridge to indians + soul made beautiful + Gee never sounded right to me - more like a compilation of sections rather than a proper song (which according to Mark is exactly what it was supposed to be so can't fault him for that). Who knows, maybe that's the way it was supposed to be. I'd be surprised if Mark just lifted the bulk of the Heroes Sections track (cantina fade and all) when there is a Heroes Sections track elsewhere on the set. I hope Part 2 kicks off with a proper intro - either Gee, or Heroes Intro.

No problem with side a being the cantina edit, with something added. Am I right in thinking Brian's cantina edit is not represented anywhere on these releases? That would seem to be quite an omission considering it's the only authentic smile era edit of Heroes we have.

My money is on part 2 starting with gee and ending with false barnyard.

Even if false Barnyard ends up on album at the end of Painter/Sunshine (as predicted).

Right, if they use the "original" false Barnyard on Painter/Sunshine, and then the false Barnyard without the Mike sunshine vocals at the end of part 1 (cantina), surely they wouldn't use it again to end part 2 (even though that's what they did with the sections mix) when they could use the rerecord of it with live Carl vocals.

Maybe the "early version outtake sections" will be part of it.

Just a thought, and it may be an obvious one, but...

Seems to me that these two tracks - "Heroes And Villains Part One" and "Heroes And Villains Part Two" - are audaciously titled. In other words, it would be a bold thing indeed for the producers of this set to decide on this verbiage without the goods to back it up. We know from his contributions to this message board that Alan Boyd is well aware of the Part 1/Part 2 double-sided single debate, and the fascination it holds for us anoraks. Mr. Boyd is, after all, one of us in many ways, and I highly doubt he'd allow the tracklisting to go out as such without delivering just what it says on the tin. Same goes for Mark Linett. These two guys are highly aware, and highly sensitive curators of this material.

My point is this: I'll bet the proverbial donut that the Part 1/Part 2 tracks are the real deal. Either they're vintage mixes or edits, or they're constructions based on irrefutable vintage diocumentation that was uncovered that details how the tracks were to be assembled.

If I'm wrong, and if the tracks are merely glorified fan mixes based on what Linett/Boyd thought sounded good, I'll eat my hat.

This makes my heart flutter. This, too, is what i think. And i really want to believe. But if this is the case, isn't it totally bizarre and incomprehensible that the big box set, the thing aimed at the hardcore fans, would relegate these two monumental tracks/discoveries to a 45 single, and not be included on CD?

Maybe, maybe not. If my other wish also comes true - that the box will come with a download code for all the vinyl material - then that's a non-issue, and I can burn my own CDs anyway.

isn't it on disc 2 of the 2cd?

Yeah.  I don't think that's bizarre at all.  It's just the record company trying to squeeze some more cash out of the hardcore fans.  Trying to get them to buy both the big set and 2CD set.  I don't like it, but that kind of thing obviously has been done many times before.

I mean, yeah, it would seem that that is what's going on. But, it's just so obvious. It's funny how they have no shame at all about such a ploy.

There was mention a while back about the box including a download code. I remember commenting that it would make no sense to have a download code for the material that's on CD, so it seemed a sure bet, if there was a code at all, that it would be a code to download the vinyl material. But has that been confirmed that the box is coming with a code? 

I disagree that it's a cheap money-grabbing ploy. Why be cynical about it? I choose to believe that the producers wanted to squeeze every last second of available space with unique content. And you know what? I'm glad they did. Cheers to them. I mean think about it, the only people that are going to even notice this stuff are the freaks. Us. And by and large, we're the kind of people who:

• Would (and should) be chuffed to bits that every last drop was squeezed out of this thing to give us more stuff
• Are connected and fully capable of networking with other freaks to help us out with copies of songs, if the unthinkable turned out to be true and the vinyl-only content wasn't immediately downloadable
• Are going to buy all formats of this thing anyway!!!!!! (I know I am.)

OK, all that said, I do want to second the above question: can anyone confirm if the box set is going to come with a download code?

double post

Loving your thoughts and generally excellent attitude here!

Still digging Pete Sounds by the way...

@Catbirdman - I like you're reasoning on the potential for an authentic 2 sided heroes. Let's hope you're right!

I hope they have gotten a tape or acetate from one of the band members for the March H&V two sided single or they use the best documentation available to identify and assemble the tracks recorded for the H&V/H&V Part 1 master number and for the H&V Part/Side 2 master number.

What do we think these outtakes sections are?  Based on the dates and what is already on the second disc, I'd guess these are the vocal overdubs which were booted on UM - the joint Brian & Mike vocals on the verses, the Mike cantina, etc.

Maybe that early instrumental track with Jimmy Bond working out the bass line?

Wha...???

Is your last name Cummings by any chance?  :)

007 played bass on H&V ????? :lol

Pretty cool, right?

Rosa Klebb on electric Fender bass

Q engineered

M on drums

Miss Moneypenny as Secretary

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Nope - Eric W.! We hung out at the RFH night 2 gig...this may bring back some memories:
http://www.earcandymag.com/smileliveRFH2-21-04.htm

And also big shout-out (as the kids once said) to BR & Cam, it's been a while gents. Haven't really looked into Smile-ville since the Smile Shop days, when I ducked out to make some music of my own, but it's great to see two major pater familas BB scholars still posting strong here.

Make that 3, including Catbirdman!

Nothing like the release of a Smile box set to get the old gang back together!  Over at SH Forums Jon Hunt is pretty active on that Smile thread!

Wow...been away so long that I don't actually know what or where SH Forums are! Shameful, really...

Howdy.

I tried to paticipate at the SH forum but couldn't hang. I wonder what keeps Jon and John off of this board these days?

Vosse:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/vosseheroes.jpg)

Interesting.

Not sure about John, but Jon has aired some of his thoughts on the matter over at the Record Room board.  I don't remember the details.  

I really think we can hear the sketched outlines of this version if we take the Cantina edit as the a side (with maybe the addition of prelude to fade, or the biccyle rider riff) and the bulk of heroes sections kicking off with Gee for the b side. I'm so curious to hear what Mark and Alan have come up with this for this. Whether it be sourced from a newly discovered edit, or just pieced together with a bit of detective work,  I hope this a/b side version is a solid stab at what Brian was aiming at for the long version.

When the box comes out, listening to H&V parts 1 and 2 is going to be the first thing I do. :hat

Kind of hard to imagine that Vosse would call a version with that much repetition "the best version" and "a beautifully structured work."  The repeating heroes sections are nice, but they hardly make for that level of craftsmanship.

That definitely could be what we get, but if so, Vosse must have been talking about something else.

The descriptions of things from Brian's friends are always really bizarre.

Cabinessence with Dennis singing like some "funky cat up in the mountains"
Heroes as 5 minutes of different versions of You Are My Sunshine
Vosse even puts the Wind Chimes outro in the context of the Elements

Maybe all those things were true at one point... and just never recorded!

Its hard to remember stuff correctly from then with the Vosse Posse always being high out of their minds.

That's too simple an excuse for me. It's a stereotype that weed just makes you have a bad memory, and it's looking more and more likely that that's simple a old wive's tale and not actually the case.

Let's not get sidetracked on the pot discussion again.

The thing about Vosse is  that he was interviewed not all that long after the sessions, the interview was lengthy, and he was a lot more detailed in his descriptions of things than many others were.  So I think he has some credibility, or at least the article does.

I agree on the weed part and don't need to go any further about drugs, i thought they mostly using LSD and Amphetamine pills. Maybe Brian was shifting around every musical element on the album in different orders.

Absolutely - Vosse and Anderle are the best contemporary sources of Smile info that we'll ever have, aside from two guys named Brian and Van Dyke.  Drugs or no drugs, they spent the most time around Brian during this period, serving as his primary sounding board for new ideas and things he was recording.  That gives them a ton of credibility in my mind.

The opposite is true of what has been expressed here. It's more likely that their memories of the music is of greater precision than many other sober listeners. The Vosse Posse were Brian's lab animals. He got them high and studied their reactions to his new mind blowing music. The way he described the end of Wind Chimes in that interview mentioned here shows - this guy clearly knew exactly what it was he was hearing & could recall it in vivid detail [not to mention summarizing it beautifully for us].

Oh and the reason is that if they were all on good vibrations and hearing Brian playing back tapes of fragments or partial mixes over & over again as I imagine he did, in conjunction with their mutual interest/unsaid request.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeYi0RA2_7A

No one ever talks about how trippy the drums to Heroes & Villains are - in the mono mix you just hear that snare, it's foreshadowing Love You - Brian Wilson has a bizarre sense of percussion. He made it abstract - look at Cabinessence. Or A Thing Or Two - the drums drop to nothing but a few hi hats in the riff. On Heroes the snare has a spacey sound, like Syd Barrett played it. Then it just disappears. Was any group doing anything like this in 1967? I don't know, I don't listen to much from that time period. I know of a good amount but don't obsess on it. Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains are rock & roll but entirely transcend rock and roll. In fact Heroes has a sort of primordial rock chug to it in its own bizarre signature BW trippy piano style sense of ryhythm way. In the chorus it completely drops out. Then back into the weird acid barber shop rock & roll. The Four Freshmen, on speed. Crying, at the beauty of their sound. Tears fallign down their cheeks. Wiiiiiiiiiiiiind Chiiiiiiiiiiiimes. Now and then, a post falls off my mind.

I've said this before: Diane Rovell

Slipped my mind, but you're absolutely right, she belongs on the list too, although I still rank the other two a little higher since their contemporary thoughts on the subject are available for all to read.  Still, I'm sure Diane knows things about Smile that nobody else does, and one can hope that the box set interviews might expose some of them.

Great contribution Catbridman - Vosse's interviews are an endless source of insight. And it reminds us that despite the insights that TSS will shed on Smile, it will raise as many, or more questions. Much of Smile will remain, as it always has, unrecoverable.

In artistic processes transitional versions of great work gets lost, often for frustratingly arbitrary reasons. But I'm hoping that H&V A-B will be based on a new or previously unknown (or partially known) archival find. The revelations of recent years (Humble Harv demo, IIGS instrumental, 66 comp reel, etc) prove that it's possible!

I've not said this before: Banana & Louie.

Those two dogs were shitting all over the sandbox during Smile. They probably heard tons of fragments that never even made it to recording but were in BW's head at the time. Those dogs have a lot they could tell us. But will they? People around Brian are eerily silent on many issues, preferring the official story even when it covers an entire range of years under one petty excuse/story that explains it all away. Dogs are different - dogs are honest. A dog's intentions are always clear - man is split double sided in his brain, he is devious and cunning. A dog is just a dog. It walks around and barks and sniffs things and poops.

I was actually the one who posted that Vosse excerpt thinking the Vosse comments on Heroes all but confirmed a Part 1/Part 2, A-side/B-side structure at least at one point in time when Vosse remembered it being that way. And he also confirms Van Dyke was still active in the project whenever that was being done. But I also read between the lines to think it may have been planned that way as a two-sided two-part structure but perhaps never materialized beyond a test mix or even a plan.

However, remember the often-cited quote from Chuck Britz where he all but confirms the same thing, a part 1/part 2 idea. Together with Vosse, they were first-person witnesses to what was being recorded and planned, it's hard to debate what they've said about it.

Which is also consistent with VDP's comments which tend to put the supposed lyric "confrontation" in March '67 instead of December '66.

He was interviewed post 20/20, so that's at least 20 months after Smile was canned, more likely some two years, and his claim that "Cabin Essence" had been totally re-recorded because Brian could now hear in stereo after his recent operation blows a huge hole in his credibility as far as I'm concerned.

I know nothing about that claim, but it seems to me that getting that wrong does not significantly damage his credibility on the Heroes quote.  With Cabin Essnece, he was probably repeating something that he was told or thought he was told.  With Heroes, he actually heard the song.  And he demonstrated in other places in the article that he was able to remember bits that we know were recorded.

He'd heard "Cabin Essence" as well, and thought the 20/20 track was a new recording. Stacking up the article with what we know to be true, his hit rate is about 50%.  ;D

It seems he probably muffed his recall/knowledge of CE but with H&V we have other confirming sources.

I think the evidence is pretty stacked in favour of there being a 2 parted Heroes, and its representation on TSS speaks volumes imo.

The best evidence has just sort of been overlooked through the years: there are coincidental recordings for a record master for H&V and a record master for H&V Part/Side 2/II.

I want to agree, but if what they are calling "Heroes And Villains, Part 1" and "Part 2" was really an historically-accurate "canon" version (even if reconstructed from an acetate), wouldn't it be somewhere on the box set CDs? To kind of hide it on the 2-CD version (and the vinyl single) makes it seem like they're deliberately downplaying its significance.

Sorry GF, my bad.

I agree with your argument, but whether or not there is any audio record of the Part 1/2 idea beyond what has already been booted is not known as far as I'm aware.  There may have been in some form - but tape gets erased,  binned,  and stolen, so I'm really hoping that an acetate has emerged that will allow ML et al to reconstruct a version. I'm not holding my breath though....

It will be interesting to see how all of this is framed in the booklet. I think the approach will be fairly transparent and geek-centric, based on the interviews etc. so far.

It depends on what kind of experience they're trying to create.  If you get the free digital download with the box, then it ends up in with all the other material anyway.  The packaging/formatting is just for fun.  And placing the material on a 45 might seem insignificant to some of us, but it could be their intention to show a lot of significance by doing so.  Perhaps it's their way of letting you get some kind of Smile experience as if the album and any related singles had come out in the 60s.  I see those 45s as a role playing exercise to give you that experience, as is replicating the original LP sleeve and booklet.  In packaging they're treating this like any box set for a popular, released LP (like Dark Side of the Moon, for instance).  It's the actual tracks that show you this was unfinished.  The whole thing is for fans who know what the deal is, and they want us to get a Smile experience instead of feeling like we're just looking at cataloged bits of sound.

(as opposed to the analog download???) I hope if there is a download that it's available in a lossless format...

I completely agree, I give a lot of significance to the fact that they decided to package Heroes as they have. They could have just had an "alternate" version on the box, and obviously there is already a lot of session material on there, so in my mind the choice to do it as a two-part single tells us that they have uncovered solid contemporary evidence that it was supposed to be that way at some point. Even with only the evidence we're privvy to now, it seems clear that this was Brian's intention in February/March '67, and they're going to give us the best approximation possible of what that may have sounded like.

Why not?  There's a new buzz phrase.  When some niche label puts out a Smile Sessions cassette box in the future you can say you downloaded it from the shelf of your local "brick and mortar."

Which had led me to believe that "H&V part 2" was just slightly more connected to "H&V" proper than "Shut Down Part 2" was to "Shut Down": not really two halves of one long song, but instead one song proper and one throwaway just to fill up an LP or the second side of a single in a fun way. Hopefully the box will either refute or confirm that.

You're gonna be waiting a long time. :(

I have changed my mind on this. Initially, i thought the fact that a Parts 1 & 2 were "relegated" to a 45 rather than being on any of the CDs suggested that it wasn't an important find/a true Parts 1 & 2 because why would they do that, make such a strange decision like that in this era of digital media? But now i think the opposite. I get the impression that this is Mark and Alan giving a little wink to the fans by framing the mythical two part/two sided single in a historically accurate context--the 45 single. Like someone above said, attempting to give us a more authentic Smile experience as it might/should have happened. I mean, if this really is a true Heroes and Villains 1 & 2, think about how amazing and appropriate it would be to have it on a legit two sided 45. It's perfect. And really cool at that. And so then there's no need to put it on the box set CDs (especially if there's a download code for the vinyl stuff, which i have a feeling there will be), which frees up room on the CDs for other, unique content. And both Part 1 & 2 tracks are there on the 2 disc set, so everyone gets to hear them (well, except the people who only buy the vinyl set, i suppose). And if there ends up being no download code, well then it's a rather effective ploy by Capitol to make more money off of the same customers, even though i suspect a good amount of hardcore fans were going to purchase the 2 disc set in addition to the box anyway regardless of this H&V 1&2 issue. It all makes sense to me in this new light. Maybe i'm just letting wishful thinking get the best of me though. We'll see in a short while.

I think that the 7" singles are a real make or break (for me) for the project as a whole. A lot was riding on the "singles" HV and Vega-Tables. With Surf's Up as the flipside to Vega, all of the the heaviest hitters are represented here. If they simply take the "album" version of HV and call it "Part 1" and some "sections HV" and call it "Part 2", who wouldn't be infuriated? How could this not be seen as "raking it in"? There (hopefully) has to be something very significant here. It also will be really interesting to see what qualifies as the Vega single. It can't be the sparse SS version, and hopefully it isn't the ML GV arranged version. Surf's Up is a huge wildcard too. If they take the ML GV sections plus connected solo BW version, they would never hear the end of it (from folks like us). So what will we get with these singles will really set the tone for this release (for me). This should separate the new set from the Unsurpassed Masters and Vigotone boots and Good Vibrations boxes, one would hope. ML and AB seem really sensible to me, so my money is banking on a great new set of material.

I think you're reading too much into the singles, although I would love what you suggest to be the case.  Surf's Up is likely  the Brian Wilson vocal over Part 1 and then the piano "demo," as Mark suggested they would do.  I would be very surprised if they used the Wild Honey Surf's Up as that obviously would not have come out as a single during the Smile era.  Vegetables will be a new mix/edit of the sections likely identical to what is on CD 1.

As I don't think any "new" sections of H & V have come to light, the two parted single will be some combination of parts familiar to us all - "sections," prelude to fade, cantina, fade rerecord, etc.  Alan has always expressed an interest in what Brian had planned for the two sided single or the different versions and has analyzed tape box info with various combinations of sections - hopefully that detective work has resulted in a possibly historically accurate H & V Parts 1 and 2.

:lol I think that you are right! I guess it would be livable for "historically accurate" versions of HV and Vega singles. I think that Surf's Up can only be a "historically intended" depiction at most since it probably never was "fully baked".