The Smiley Smile Message Board

Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: juggler on May 26, 2011, 02:59:31 PM



Title: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: juggler on May 26, 2011, 02:59:31 PM
Quote
Brian Wilson's interview with the Voice's Stacey Anderson will appear in our June 8 issue, just in time for his sold-out residency at Highline Ballroom June 11-13. During the shows, the reclusive genius will perform last year's album of George Gershwin standards, Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin, as well as select Beach Boys hits.

While speaking with Anderson today, Wilson denied the rumor that the Beach Boys will reunite next year in celebration of their 50th anniversary, as reported in Rolling Stone and by the BBC.

"I don't know anything about that," he said. "I don't really [have a relationship with the other members] right now, and I'm not really interested in them."

The June 8 issue of the Village Voice will contain the full interview with Wilson, which covers his likely retirement from touring, the painful memories that mar this year's long-awaited release of Smile, and the songwriting lessons he learned from George Gershwin.
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2011/05/brian_wilson_not_interested_in_beach_boys_reunion.php

Doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood today.
 :(


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: oldsurferdude on May 26, 2011, 03:20:43 PM
Quote
Brian Wilson's interview with the Voice's Stacey Anderson will appear in our June 8 issue, just in time for his sold-out residency at Highline Ballroom June 11-13. During the shows, the reclusive genius will perform last year's album of George Gershwin standards, Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin, as well as select Beach Boys hits.

While speaking with Anderson today, Wilson denied the rumor that the Beach Boys will reunite next year in celebration of their 50th anniversary, as reported in Rolling Stone and by the BBC.

"I don't know anything about that," he said. "I don't really [have a relationship with the other members] right now, and I'm not really interested in them."

The June 8 issue of the Village Voice will contain the full interview with Wilson, which covers his likely retirement from touring, the painful memories that mar this year's long-awaited release of Smile, and the songwriting lessons he learned from George Gershwin.
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2011/05/brian_wilson_not_interested_in_beach_boys_reunion.php

Doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood today.
 :(
:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on May 26, 2011, 03:27:04 PM
So you're giving a thumbsup to the fact that juggler says it doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood? What kind of ghoul are you?!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 26, 2011, 03:32:09 PM
So you're giving a thumbsup to the fact that juggler says it doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood? What kind of ghoul are you?!

He's a bad beach boys fan, he's a masochistic freak who gets off on Brian's suffering. Doesn't he know Brian Wilson is a delicate little flower who needs to be nurtured and protected? Let's round up a pity-posse and teach him a lesson.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on May 26, 2011, 03:38:37 PM
Quote
Doesn't he know Brian Wilson is a delicate little flower who needs to be nurtured and protected? Let's round up a pity-posse and teach him a lesson.

Quit being a douche.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: 18thofMay on May 26, 2011, 03:53:22 PM
So you're giving a thumbsup to the fact that juggler says it doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood? What kind of ghoul are you?!
I am thinking he may have been giving the thumbs up for the no reunion part!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on May 26, 2011, 04:10:49 PM
Ahh that makes sense.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: oldsurferdude on May 26, 2011, 04:48:20 PM
So you're giving a thumbsup to the fact that juggler says it doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood? What kind of ghoul are you?!
yeah, that's exactly what we'd all expect from donkey like you.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Paulos on May 26, 2011, 04:48:44 PM
The same old problem with Brian interviews, ask him  the same thing next week and he'll probably say he is interested in a reunion.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: oldsurferdude on May 26, 2011, 04:50:36 PM
Quote
Doesn't he know Brian Wilson is a delicate little flower who needs to be nurtured and protected? Let's round up a pity-posse and teach him a lesson.

Quit being a douche.
Like you???? Hey! Your name calling surpasses no other-quite inventive for a moderator.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: oldsurferdude on May 26, 2011, 04:51:40 PM
So you're giving a thumbsup to the fact that juggler says it doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood? What kind of ghoul are you?!
I am thinking he may have been giving the thumbs up for the no reunion part!
Ya think?????????????????????????????????????????? Tell that to Billy Boy.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on May 26, 2011, 04:55:20 PM
The one thing that I've learned over the years is to not believe anything Brian says in interviews.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: onkster on May 26, 2011, 05:10:00 PM
Someone's been going heavy on the vinegar and water around here...


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on May 26, 2011, 05:27:10 PM
So you're giving a thumbsup to the fact that juggler says it doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood? What kind of ghoul are you?!
I am thinking he may have been giving the thumbs up for the no reunion part!
Ya think?????????????????????????????????????????? Tell that to Billy Boy.
Quote
Like you?Huh Hey! Your name calling surpasses no other-quite inventive for a moderator.
Well considering some of the stuff you've posted on this board in response to anyone who doesn't share your dislike of Mike Love (or "Myke", as you so childishly call him) you have no room to talk. I'm living on borrowed time; I don't have any more patience for you and Fishmonk disrespecting people.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: 18thofMay on May 26, 2011, 06:07:44 PM
So you're giving a thumbsup to the fact that juggler says it doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood? What kind of ghoul are you?!
I am thinking he may have been giving the thumbs up for the no reunion part!
Ya think?????????????????????????????????????????? Tell that to Billy Boy.
Please do not take that tone with me.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: oldsurferdude on May 26, 2011, 06:12:20 PM
So you're giving a thumbsup to the fact that juggler says it doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood? What kind of ghoul are you?!
I am thinking he may have been giving the thumbs up for the no reunion part!
Ya think?????????????????????????????????????????? Tell that to Billy Boy.
Quote
Like you?Huh Hey! Your name calling surpasses no other-quite inventive for a moderator.
Well considering some of the stuff you've posted on this board in response to anyone who doesn't share your dislike of Mike Love (or "Myke", as you so childishly call him) you have no room to talk. I'm living on borrowed time; I don't have any more patience for you and Fishmonk disrespecting people.
I believe if you read your posts, you have an equally checkered past -douche, ghoul?????????? How does hypocrite sound???


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on May 26, 2011, 06:21:37 PM
Oh, i"m just returning the favor. You people started this merda first, I'm just tired of biting my tongue...er...fingers (cause I'm typing :lol)

But whatever. Quit being so damn snarky and disrespectful towards those who don't hate "Myke" and "Bruth" as much as you.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: onkster on May 27, 2011, 08:42:21 AM
OK, everybody, can we please get back to the fun of discussing BBs? Let's not turn this place into the friggin' 910!  :p


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on May 27, 2011, 10:34:19 AM
Works for me!

Quote
The same old problem with Brian interviews, ask him  the same thing next week and he'll probably say he is interested in a reunion.
Yeah.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Chris Moise on May 27, 2011, 09:40:30 PM
The one thing that I've learned over the years is to not believe anything Brian says in interviews.

Heh, I'll keep that in mind next time you argue that a 1966 Smile was going to have movements becasue Brian told Peter Reum that in 1982  ;D  :p


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on May 28, 2011, 04:00:52 AM
I never said that. I said that there may have been a possibility and that Brian followed through with the idea in 2004. We all know that there is money to be made, the Beach Boys will make it, no matter what Brian says at the moment.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 28, 2011, 09:13:33 AM
The tone of this thread is really disingenuous. Smile was neither sequenced nor even conceptually finished in 1966-7. As radical as Brian changed production values from Smile to Smiley Smile in1967....it is neither out of the realm of possibilty nor unrealistic to conclude that his ideas were fluid back then.  I see Brian in the contact I had with him through the years as a survivor, a man who coped with the forces pushing him to move a certain direction or another. Therefore, it is certainly reasonable to entertain the idea that at different points through the year, back in 1966, Smile could have been BOTH a 12 track album and an idea moving toward his 2004 work. The black and white thinking with respect to how Brian works adapting to peoples` expectations of him is simply not how he has historically coped with people demanding more from him.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jason on May 28, 2011, 10:33:04 AM
So you're giving a thumbsup to the fact that juggler says it doesn't sound like Brian was in a great mood? What kind of ghoul are you?!
I am thinking he may have been giving the thumbs up for the no reunion part!
Ya think?????????????????????????????????????????? Tell that to Billy Boy.
Quote
Like you?Huh Hey! Your name calling surpasses no other-quite inventive for a moderator.
Well considering some of the stuff you've posted on this board in response to anyone who doesn't share your dislike of Mike Love (or "Myke", as you so childishly call him) you have no room to talk. I'm living on borrowed time; I don't have any more patience for you and Fishmonk disrespecting people.
I believe if you read your posts, you have an equally checkered past -douche, ghoul?????????? How does hypocrite sound???

Hey, if you have such a problem with the remarks made to you on here...you can always report them to a moderator. :)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on May 28, 2011, 10:54:42 AM
@Peter

People see that unofficial back album cover with the out of sequence tracklisting and are convinced that this is the only way that it could ever be, or that no other songs could be added or subtracted. Had Brian finished the album and released it later in the Summer of 67, there is no telling with that extra time what changes he might of made.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Runaways on May 28, 2011, 04:22:39 PM
@Peter

People see that unofficial back album cover with the out of sequence tracklisting and are convinced that this is the only way that it could ever be, or that no other songs could be added or subtracted. Had Brian finished the album and released it later in the Summer of 67, there is no telling with that extra time what changes he might of made.

i think the difference is if that's what brian wanted to do. maybe deep down he wanted to do the 3 part thing, but thought it'd be too much at that time. y'never knoow


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on May 28, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
I wonder if Capitol would have went along with a double album? 


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 28, 2011, 05:42:34 PM
The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jim V. on May 29, 2011, 05:14:16 PM
The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.

Was 15 Big Ones really ever supposed to be a double album? According to whom? It seems Dennis and Carl didn't really want the oldies released, and it seems that Brian only wanted to record the oldies at first, but was convinced to add stuff like "Had to Phone Ya" and "It's OK". And it seems like Mike and Alan just wanted something released so they could make some more money.

The thought of 15 Big Ones as a double album does sound quite nice though.....we'd probably have "Good Timin'", "California Feelin'", "River Song", "Ding Dang", "Angel Come Home".....could've been a final classic Beach Boys album. Actually....the oldies side probably would've stunk. But whatever. I guess I'd rather pine for an all original album of the best 1974-1977 material.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: juggler on May 29, 2011, 06:40:11 PM
The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print.

Peter, what sort of revisions do the markings suggest?  I've often wondered whether the misspelled "Villians" was to be corrected.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: vintagemusic on May 29, 2011, 06:54:05 PM
The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.


That is very well said. It can never be over estimated, Albums are organic and take on a life
of their own during the process.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on May 30, 2011, 02:10:38 AM
Was 15 Big Ones really ever supposed to be a double album? According to whom?

It's well documented in the US rock press of the period. The game plan was originally a "warm-up" album of oldies to get Brian comfortable, then an album of originals. That morphed into a double album (according to Dennis) then into what we have when it became evident that 1976 Brian didn't have the focus of 1966 Brian (notably when he announced "that's it, I'm done, the album's finished").


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 30, 2011, 11:23:15 AM
Hey Juggler, you will get to see to see it yourself soon...patience....


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bicyclerider on May 30, 2011, 01:29:10 PM
The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.

The back cover slick being produced at all means that the Smile track list was much more defined than say the double album version of 15 Big Ones which never got to a track list or a cover/booklet/back slick being produced, even in mock up form.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bicyclerider on May 30, 2011, 01:31:39 PM
@Peter

People see that unofficial back album cover with the out of sequence tracklisting and are convinced that this is the only way that it could ever be, or that no other songs could be added or subtracted. Had Brian finished the album and released it later in the Summer of 67, there is no telling with that extra time what changes he might of made.

We sort of know what changes he made, don't we?  Smiley Smile, anyone?  But I get your point - to me the album was in flux, but it's not clear what changes were being considered - it was still a 12 track album in March/April and presumably the titles were the same as the track list, as nothing else had been worked on.  Except maybe With Me Tonight (and Carl's Tones).


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: The Song Of The Grange on May 30, 2011, 02:11:27 PM
The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.

Peter Reum, you actually own a Smile back-cover slick!? You are one cool dude!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 30, 2011, 02:53:15 PM
No, we don't know whether it was still a 12 track album. My point is that it may have not stayed the way a lot of people think it was going....I think to draw conclusions, there would have to be much more detail from back then that was from Brian and was first hand data, an interview perhaps, which we don't have. Perhaps what Alan and Mark uncover might add some light to what was done as of December, and what was going on in January through April, which might have been a 12 track album, but after the obsessive/compulsive cycle of record and erase, record and tinker began, the end was over the horizon, and I personally see things slowly but surely unraveling.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 30, 2011, 03:52:34 PM
It will be interesting to see the track list if we get to. If it is from December and there are a lot of scratch outs and write ins of the 12 titles on the tracklist then it would seem to have been in flux after December. If it is just changes to position of text or mono bar or text other than the titles it wouldn't.

In the more concrete evidence of the recordings, I don't see any real flux in the album especially after December. Brian tried a lot of ideas on the H&V single, just as he had with the GV single, but I don't see any flux in the album. But, maybe we're about to be shown that flux in the docu of the sessions box set.

Well, except I guess he did flux the hell out of it into Smiley Smile but to me that is after the fact...or something....?....


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bicyclerider on May 30, 2011, 04:43:34 PM
There are press reports interviewing Brian in March/April (LLVS) that mention "a 12 track album" - that  stays remarkably consistent from December until the "Smile has been junked" announcement.  Of course, each article doesn't list WHAT 12 tracks, but if he's not working on anything new other than the single Heroes and then the single Vegetables, it doesn't seem as if there needs to be (or would have been) any revision to the list . . . again, other than the possible inclusion of Tones and With Me Tonight, tho only With Me Tonight was recorded in a releasable form.

It seems Brian knew he had those 12 tracks to finish to finish the album, and when he couldn't do it in a reasonable amount of time, that's what prompted the "junking" and change to Smiley Smile with a different list of tracks along with some remakes.  


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 30, 2011, 05:09:24 PM
I happen to agree with you "12 trackers" that at one time during the Smile period, a 12 track album was considered. I don`t know if Brian was the source of the December list or not. It is clear that he had never seen it, because when asked about it by Jeff Foskett, he said he never had seen it. That caused a radical shift in my thinking. I think Jeff showed him the list from Dom`s book. That he couldn`t sequence it was due to technical limitations, and in my opinion disorientation from overuse of amphetamine. The source tapes tend to reflect this disorientation and restacking of fragmentary bits of music. Brian told Dom and me about 15 years apart that he was thinking in terms of movements...I don`t know when this thinking entered his mind, but that is consistent years apart. I don`t pretend to have the answers, but anecdotal and recorded evidence point to an album in flux....as Smiley Smile and later, Smile in 2004 indicate that it was.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on May 30, 2011, 06:21:13 PM
Another possibility that I have never run across is that assembling SMiLE would yield a work akin to a dream. This would be one of the strongest clues as to what SMiLE was to reveal itself to be for consumers ripe enough for the "eureka" moment.

Keeping this dynamic from consumers was of importance to create the proper effect. The 12 track facade served this purpose.

Also, after Brian had doubts about the project he never tried to assemble it because to do so was to enable the proper effect.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bicyclerider on May 30, 2011, 06:34:11 PM
I happen to agree with you "12 trackers" that at one time during the Smile period, a 12 track album was considered. I don`t know if Brian was the source of the December list or not. It is clear that he had never seen it, because when asked about it by Jeff Foskett, he said he never had seen it. That caused a radical shift in my thinking. I think Jeff showed him the list from Dom`s book. That he couldn`t sequence it was due to technical limitations, and in my opinion disorientation from overuse of amphetamine. The source tapes tend to reflect this disorientation and restacking of fragmentary bits of music. Brian told Dom and me about 15 years apart that he was thinking in terms of movements...I don`t know when this thinking entered his mind, but that is consistent years apart. I don`t pretend to have the answers, but anecdotal and recorded evidence point to an album in flux....as Smiley Smile and later, Smile in 2004 indicate that it was.

He doesn't remember seeing it, at the time he was asked, but it's not credible that he wasn't the source of the list originally, no matter if Carl or Diane put the pen to paper - especially if it was Diane which is what the current thinking is. They wouldn't mock up a back cover slick without the approval of the producer, Cam investigated this years ago.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 30, 2011, 06:44:18 PM
There is a problem with the idea it is Diane`s writing inthat I have fairly extensive samples in both or their hands in my collection. The writing closely resembles Carl`s writing NOT DIane`s. So what we have is a mystery, it is not as cut and dried as one might believe. Not that it isn`t possible that Brian dictated the list to Carl...but it is curious that he doesn`t remember doing it.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Chris Brown on May 30, 2011, 07:08:26 PM
There is a problem with the idea it is Diane`s writing inthat I have fairly extensive samples in both or their hands in my collection. The writing closely resembles Carl`s writing NOT DIane`s. So what we have is a mystery, it is not as cut and dried as one might believe. Not that it isn`t possible that Brian dictated the list to Carl...but it is curious that he doesn`t remember doing it.

Brian has said more than a few "curious" things in recent years, things that are either hard to believe or demonstrably false.

In this particular instance, I find it difficult to believe that Brian had never seen the list or that, in 1966, Carl (or anyone, for that matter) would have gone behind Brian's back and submitted a song list to Capitol without significant input from Brian.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Roger Ryan on May 30, 2011, 08:25:30 PM
If that twelve-track song list consisted of material that was way out of left-field, I could understand the importance of Brian (or somebody who was there in '66) confirming it. But it seems pretty obvious that the twelve songs listed are the ones that had been worked on for the previous three or four months. The ones where sessions had been held for that aren't listed appear to be ones Parks did not write lyrics for or were productions handled by Carl or Dennis.

The list seems to have been handed in at the last moment when SMiLE the album seemed to have a direction. Within a couple of weeks, Brian doesn't even appear to be working on the album as a whole, but attempting to focus on getting a single together.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 30, 2011, 08:33:14 PM
I don't doubt Brian does not remember it or means it in some unexpected way. I wonder if he remembers it since then?

There is also a typewritten copy but who typed or wrote the tracklist wouldn't matter. I was told it would not be accepted except from/by the Producer or acted on without review and approval of the Producer [and legal and the art director and another ? department], which was Brian. Is it any different today?  


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 30, 2011, 08:55:59 PM
I'm in a tiny minority who sees Brian working at a very high and organized fashion during SMiLE. He is not excessively or obsessively recording. His thinking is organized and focused and discreet and he knows what every piece is for and where it goes within each song which he identifies on the recordings and in the documentation. He is not lost in his recording of even H&V or obsessive but progressive just as he was with GV. He has an idea, he gets a better idea and he recorded those bits which he has thought out in advance and is identifying where and what is their purpose as they are recorded.

If Brian thought he planned SMiLE to have movements like Rhapsody In Blue and he thought RIB had movements, I wonder what his definition of "movement" was? Does RIB have movements? To me, each song has movements I guess; could that be what he meant? From the very beginning the recordings for songs have fades, how would that work with album movements? With PS he thought of that album as a collection of songs that went to together, could that be what he meant? Like some sort of grouping of discreet songs he thought of as a movement?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 30, 2011, 09:16:05 PM
All I want to add to this most fascinating discussion is this: Of all the hours of session tapes and studio material I've listened to through the years, I cannot really think of a single one where Brian sounds disorganized, unfocused, or in some way disconnected with what is going on. In fact on nearly every session out there from 1966 into 1967, he is in command of what's happening. It seems to be the same on the Smiley Smile sessions as well, although there are not nearly as many pieces of "chat" audible on those tapes which have come out.




Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on May 31, 2011, 02:54:43 AM
The back cover slick being produced at all means that the Smile track list was much more defined than say the double album version of 15 Big Ones which never got to a track list or a cover/booklet/back slick being produced, even in mock up form.

I don't think so. I may be wrong, but this only indicates that Capitol wanted SMiLE in the shops as quickly as possible, so they tried to get as much preparation work to be already done when Brian would hand them the finished master. So they made a layout sample for the back cover, and should some song names have been changed in the meantime, that would've been corrected before production. Had the tracklist on that slick really been the final one, they would very likely have produced the back covers to be pasted onto the thousands of front covers. But if I'm not mistaken, the back cover never went into production.

If I understand Peter Reum's hint right, we will get to see the back cover slick with those fabled handwritten notes in the box.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on May 31, 2011, 03:29:48 AM
From the very beginning the recordings for songs have fades, how would that work with album movements? ... Like some sort of grouping of discreet songs he thought of as a movement?

This is something I've been thinking about too for a few days now. There's no reason you couldn't say "these four songs form movement one, those four are movement two, and those four movement three". If I did something like this, I would make damn sure it says so on the back cover before it is being produced. This would actually make it easy to split up a movement between the two sides of the LP, however that would be a little bit insatisfactory.
Anyway, I think 12 tracks do not contradict three movements, although it is much more satisfactory when it is done like on BWPS.

Another thing about that whole 12 tracks issue: Why is it it anyway that nearly all those 60s LPs have exactly 12 tracks on them, no more, no less? Does anyone have information about this? Was that some kind of legal obligation in the contracts? Only Pet Sounds and the "live" album have 13, the past-disaster SS and WH have only eleven. "Party" has actually 13 songs, but "I Get Around" and "Little Deuce Coupe" are declared to be a medley, which they aren't, so that one too has 12 tracks.

Could it be possible there was a "12 track" obligation which had its part in the downfall of the ambitious SMiLE project?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on May 31, 2011, 05:45:44 AM
Just for fun folks....was "Fire" the 13th song recorded?

David Anderle definitely points to "Fire" as the point at which he realized there would be problems with SMiLE. I think Brian's problem with the track had more to do with content than count but it's fun to kick around the idea.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Roger Ryan on May 31, 2011, 07:04:00 AM

Another thing about that whole 12 tracks issue: Why is it it anyway that nearly all those 60s LPs have exactly 12 tracks on them, no more, no less? Does anyone have information about this? Was that some kind of legal obligation in the contracts? Only Pet Sounds and the "live" album have 13, the past-disaster SS and WH have only eleven. "Party" has actually 13 songs, but "I Get Around" and "Little Deuce Coupe" are declared to be a medley, which they aren't, so that one too has 12 tracks.

Could it be possible there was a "12 track" obligation which had its part in the downfall of the ambitious SMiLE project?

Maybe someone else who knows more can chime in, but I believe only the first 10 or 12 songs would count on an LP when it came to royalty payments; anything more would be a bonus for the listener, but did not count when paying the performer. The Beatles would routinely put on 14 tracks per album, but two or three tracks would often be trimmed by Capitol for the U.S. release with the extra tracks being collected for a makeshift future album (YESTERDAY...AND TODAY, for example).


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 31, 2011, 01:02:01 PM
I find the argument about fades to be inconsequential, mainly due to the fact that if sequencing was not done, then segues would not be done either. That was something that Brian addressed in 2003/4, with Paul`s assistance. It to me is analagous to saying the roof isn`t on a building when the blueprint isn`t accurate, or the support beams aren`t in place. This is not to discount what`s there, but Brian used what was there to assemble 2003 Smile, fades or no fades.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Roger Ryan on May 31, 2011, 01:52:42 PM
I find the argument about fades to be inconsequential, mainly due to the fact that if sequencing was not done, then segues would not be done either. That was something that Brian addressed in 2003/4, with Paul`s assistance. It to me is analagous to saying the roof isn`t on a building when the blueprint isn`t accurate, or the support beams aren`t in place. This is not to discount what`s there, but Brian used what was there to assemble 2003 Smile, fades or no fades.

My first reaction would be to disagree with this given that specific fades were recorded in '66/'67 for tracks like "Vegetables" and "Heroes & Villains" that were not recreated when BWPS was put together (the assumption being that "fades" would not work during live performance where it was determined to bunch the segments together in "movements"). But the more I think about it, the more I think you may be right to an extent. Perhaps what you're saying is that Brian prepared fades for the majority of the songs because he didn't know how they would be sequenced together (therefore, he didn't know which tracks would appear at the end of a "movement" and would require a fade). Even with the BWPS sequencing, it would be logical to have "Cabin Essence" and "Surf's Up" end with fades as they conclude their respective "movements" (again, this was obvious not done on BWPS since the album, more-or-less, replicated the live presentation). What is interesting is to note which original SMiLE tracks don't appear to have fades. Whereas every track on PET SOUNDS ends in a fade, "Our Prayer", "Wonderful", "He Gives Speeches", "You're Welcome", the original version of "Wind Chimes", "The Elements (pt. 1)", "I'm In Great Shape", and "The Old Master Painter" all exist without a definite fade. That does lend some credence to the idea that Brian thought he might hard-edit some of these tracks together or, at the very least, he would break the PET SOUNDS approach and not use fades for every track. The BWPS hard-edit of "I'm In Great Shape" into "I Wanna Be Around" sounds like something that could have been planned in '66 and maintain that combo as a single track under the "Great Shape" title. Also, perhaps "Heroes & Villains" did not have a fade associated with it until Jan. '67 when Brian used the segment recorded for "The Old Master Painter" to end the "Cantina" mix. Could he have originally intended "Heroes..." to hard-edit into another track?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Chris Moise on May 31, 2011, 04:12:00 PM
There is a problem with the idea it is Diane`s writing inthat I have fairly extensive samples in both or their hands in my collection. The writing closely resembles Carl`s writing NOT DIane`s. So what we have is a mystery, it is not as cut and dried as one might believe.

It strains credibility to think that the album producer wouldn't be required to sign off on the back cover track list before it was finished by the art department. Capitol art directors, one of them Smile’s art director George Osaka, that no artwork and printed material went without review and approval by the album's producer. Add to this the fact that Brian did not work outside of the 12 tracks on the list in months following the handwritten list. Also add that Van Dyke Parks has said single LP of banded (i.e. separate) tracks with no segues and crossfades between them save for within "The Elements".

Sure, Brian might have changed his mind and done any number of things. He might have decided it was going to be a triple album incorporating variations of "Teeter Totter Love" but there is no evidence to support this. The only evidence we have pointing to a 1966/67 Smile consisting of 'movements' is your recollection of Brian telling you this in 1982. While interesting this, IMO, isn't much in the face of the contemporary evidence that points to a 12 track album.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 31, 2011, 04:58:08 PM
There is more than just my talk with Brian...there is Domenic`s talk with him. Capitol had a slick and track list for Lei`d in Hawaii as well...have you seen it? My point is that things shift from week to week at record companies, and albums change...drastically. Wild Honey is another example, as is 15 Big Ones, as is Holland, as is In Concert, as is the change from Add Some Music to Sunflower. Your point means nothing except in the context of December 12. 1966. It may have been completely different in February, May, or October 1967.  While I appreciate your point that at one time Smile may have been considered to be a "banded 12 track album".....it is not only plausible but possible that conceptually it changed, as did all the other BB albums I listed above. Remember that Brian began with the existing 66-67 tracks as they existed in the vault in 2003.



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: OBLiO on May 31, 2011, 05:36:06 PM
Something else I have considered is that the songs themselves are not traditional. Al Jardine mentioned how Vegetables never really resolves when he performed at Amoeba. None of the vignettes have traditional resolve, so you you can either join vignettes together or fade-out. Brian said the music would be a "new" spiritual music. It would be "new" in the popular song world because the sections were akin to chants. The vignettes become interchangeable. The chorus of one song could also be the tag of another. The idea of movements could involve recurring themes, where a chorus of one song could be a tag of another, but there is so much material that there isn't too much of that going on. I've looked at the 12 tracks and try to work out how to group 4 songs into one movement. You get 3 groups of 4 songs overall, but I am not so sure that track list isn't just to provide the record company with something to show what is in production. Any one of the song titles could be changed or taken off at anytime before release or could have ended up in a 4 song/3 movement piece... but if presented to the record company that way too early might have caused a problem.

I really believe, in the end, the story you want to tell determines the final presentation. The 2004 story is happier than the 66-67 story. they were able to take what they did and turn it into a more positive thing.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 31, 2011, 05:45:30 PM
This is just one of those things we are going to continue to disagree on probably. I don't share the view that decisions made in 2003 for a live show comp have anything much to do with the historical SMiLE. As I remember even Brian said BWPS isn't the way SMiLE was going to be in 1966. But on the other hand, would he remember that if we are questioning his memory?

I may have been too specific saying fade, BW uses fades or tags to end discreet tracks. I think all of the tracklisted titles have a fade or tag. Granted Wonderful's fade is short and could seem vague. H&V had Barnyard and a tag to Part 1 before it had the OMP fade on cantina. So to me that is the concrete evidence from the period and it adds up to Brian  planned a 12 track album during the period of the recording and there is no contemporaneous evidence of anything else. [1,2,3,4, here comes "this just in,  newly discovered irrefutable contemporaneous evidence of 1966 segued movements"]


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: OBLiO on May 31, 2011, 05:53:36 PM
The movements could have been separated into 12 separate tracks though and placed in groupings. What vignettes were to be included into each track is the puzzle. I can take Rock with Me Henry and put it in Worms as much as I can take Rock Plymouth Roll and put that into Wonderful. It depends on what story you want to tell or how you want to tell it. I think it was supposed to be a more comical venture overall as far as initial intention, though. But I am with you Cam on Brian knowing exactly what he wanted and knew what he was doing, although things changed as time passed.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 31, 2011, 05:58:31 PM
To Oblio...I agree that one can get into the same riddle that Brian was presented with when he tackled Smile in 2003...that is...the combinaTion of logical movements given the extant content OR the 12 track list is daunting!  All the more remarkable in terms of what Darian and Brian put together! The segues are incredible...and the new lyrical content is a delight.

To Roger...I appreciate your explanation of "hard fades" and "soft fades" as you term them...your example of the Fire track and Wind Chimes, just as an example, make the idea possible that Wind Chimes WAS part of The Elements, and that perhaps Wonderful could have been linked to Surfs Up. That certainly brings to question the idea of a "banded twelve track album"...perhaps the list WAS a snapshot in time. Or maybe it wasn`t...


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: OBLiO on May 31, 2011, 06:19:24 PM
Yes... like in a symphony you might have just a couple measures of a recurring theme come out of nowhere to remind you of something. Or if you ever listen to the way music is arranged in a cartoon. I can see the music arranged in that way with maybe comical phrases or the psychedelic chants interlaced. We already have the "Heroes and Villains just look what you've done"... that music occurring in two separate songs. And they did do a great job putting all of it together in 2004.. I really like the melody and lyrics in Blue Hawaii. I listened to Jan and Dean Meet Batman recently and I think Brian might have been going for something similar, only less comic book. Another thing I found interesting is "Our Prayer" the aaaaa uuuuu mmmmm.... is pretty much Aum or Om. Just noticed that the other day.

edit: sp


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on May 31, 2011, 08:39:15 PM
I have always seen the connection between some of the material in J&D Meet Batman and some of the Smile skits. Whether they were useable in the context of Smile is open to debate... BUT it was clear that Brian was trying to move his humor into his work, and Smile 2004 is a clear example of that. I explored the psychology of humor in Light the Lamp, and have found Brian`s use of humor in his music refreshing from my earliest listens to his work.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: OBLiO on May 31, 2011, 09:25:36 PM
Yes... the trick is how to edit the dialogue and where it is placed. There is an absurdity to it. Theatre of the absurd. I saw a photograph of a fake fight on stage between Mike and Brian. That kind of thing. Arguments can be absurd and funny. You can use something absurd or goofy to rile up an audience and then hit 'em with a song. Or something like "I'm gonna call the cops!" and then in comes the keystone cop music.... something like that. Get 'em laughing and then sing something very spiritual.

I had the J&D Meet Batman and it was Bill who reminded me of it and I see the connection, as well.

Was just listening to Surf's Up and it is a three movement piece. Linear. I can see the SMiLE music moving from A to Z without repeats, but variations of recurring themes. They pretty much did that in 2004 and they did successfully include the absurd in the 2004 SMiLE, but in a much more subtle manner. Not sure why, but when I hear the saw kick in, sawing away, it always makes me laugh. What are those Little Rascals building out there in the barn?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on June 01, 2011, 12:29:39 AM
I find the argument about fades to be inconsequential

That depends on what you try to prove with it or what you think the other wants to prove. I'm pretty sure that in early stages SMiLE was to be a 12 track album. There ARE fades to several songs. Jules Siegel mentions the bicycle rider theme fading away. I'm not convinced though that it would have stayed that way. At some point - which may very well have been as early as late 1966 - Brian started to see SMiLE as a 3-movement piece. Does that mean he junked the fades? So far we just don't know. Even if he decided in 1966 to junk them, those three movements still would have contained individual songs - and their number might have been 12. Would those be the 12 songs mentioned on the back cover slick? We can't tell!

I don't share the view that decisions made in 2003 for a live show comp have anything much to do with the historical SMiLE.

Well, my point to that is that there just is no "historical SMiLE". There are historical recordings for SMiLE. But many decisions that would have been necessary to complete the album seem just not to have been made. While those missing decisions were obviously done in 2003, we can't tell which decisions date to 1966/67 and which are new.

Maybe the whole movement-and-segues thing was one of the reasons Brian junked SMiLE as a whole in 1967. He couldn't do it the way he wanted back then. There's one contemporary quote where he says he wants to keep as much of SMiLE a secret before he releases it. The movement grouping could be one of those secrets. But that's pure speculation on my part.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on June 01, 2011, 04:47:13 AM
OK, but to me there is a historical SMiLE and Brian had it thought out before he went into the studio, not after. He made improvements to individual tracks of course but they were also thought out before the recording. If we are going to accept that Brian's intentions were for movements and his definition for movements was so broad as to include being merely a grouping of individual tracks then I could see that. However, I don't see it, I just don't see the evidence for it in the recordings. It's all in the music a Coach used to say.

If it turns out that he did intend movements, I won't be disappointed because I started at the position that I wanted SMiLE to out Sgt. Pepper Sgt. Pepper.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: MBE on June 01, 2011, 04:53:10 AM
To me it doesn't matter now. All we can go on is what exists, or at best comtemporary interviews or paperwork. What is important today is that some great music was made and it's finally going to properly come out. Myself I couldn't be happier.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Roger Ryan on June 01, 2011, 05:48:04 AM
Given that much of the SMiLE story is about Brian losing confidence, I tend to think that if Brian is being accurate and truthful about there actually being "movements" in the original SMiLE, it was something that existed in his mind early on that got eroded away. Looking at the way the sessions went, I see the songs becoming more conventional as time goes on. "Vegetables" starts off with Parks at his most "out-there" lyrics only to use much more straight-forward lyrics a few months later. "Heroes & Villains" starts off as a huge multi-section western comedy incorporating "Barnyard" and "I'm In Great Shape" (the most obvious example of creating a "movement" using different songs, right?) along with sound effects; it eventually is reduced to a three-and-a-half minute single with a more traditional verse/chorus/verse/bridge/verse/chorus structure. Ultimately, everything gets whittled down to SMILEY SMILE.

The project began on a very grand scale and ended as a modest one.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on June 01, 2011, 08:22:03 AM
Roger, that was the conclusion I also reached, but who really knows? It seemed to me that if Brian had an idea for segued themed songs, then it might have begun that way and feedback from peers, whether the band or other musicians might have made him reign in his ideas and go more conservatively. As time has passed, I have also entertained the notion that he set the whole mess aside to get an album out, then intended to return to it later. Ideas evolve through time...or devolve too.

Cam, no matter whether a 12 track album or in movements, I have no doubt that Smile musically would have easily matched Sgt. Pepper in terms of sophistication and production values, had it seen release in 1967... but that was not to be...apparently Brian had to let it gestate for 37 years to give it life.  But those 66-67 recordings have captured the imagination, haven`t they? What other album has been so analyzed, do it yourselfed, and examined as closely as Smile....it truly has a life of its own!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Chris Brown on June 01, 2011, 09:08:31 AM
Great discussion going on here!

I've always been firmly on the "12 individual tracks with fades" side of the fence, but there have been excellent points made on both sides that have changed my thinking somewhat. Brian was a master at creating great fades, and the ones we've heard from Smile are among his best. I agree that at some point in 1966, it's quite possible that Brian was thinking in terms of movements - on a small scale at least, we know this to be true ("Heroes" being the best example of movements within a song, at least in it's late-'66 Humble Harv incarnation). But whether he saw a movement as a grouping of songs that would ultimately conclude with a fade is obviously a lot harder to pin down. I've never put much stock in the BWPS sequencing, but it certainly fits the theory  You change all the crossfades and link pieces to hard edits and use the brilliant "Cabinessence" and "Surf's Up" fades, and for the most part, it works.  But by doing that, you're still losing fades to "Heroes" and "Worms," which to me are sacrifices that aren't worth making.  Maybe Brian thought otherwise, but we'll probably never know.

I think Roger hit the nail on the head about how the level of ambition Brian had for the project diminished over time. The evolution of "Heroes" just taken by itself is a tragic microchasm of the album as a whole.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on June 01, 2011, 10:31:28 AM
Cam, no matter whether a 12 track album or in movements, I have no doubt that Smile musically would have easily matched Sgt. Pepper in terms of sophistication and production values, had it seen release in 1967... but that was not to be...apparently Brian had to let it gestate for 37 years to give it life.  But those 66-67 recordings have captured the imagination, haven`t they? What other album has been so analyzed, do it yourselfed, and examined as closely as Smile....it truly has a life of its own!

Peter,

On that we agree.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jason on June 01, 2011, 10:43:07 AM
Cam, no matter whether a 12 track album or in movements, I have no doubt that Smile musically would have easily matched Sgt. Pepper in terms of sophistication and production values, had it seen release in 1967... but that was not to be...apparently Brian had to let it gestate for 37 years to give it life.  But those 66-67 recordings have captured the imagination, haven`t they? What other album has been so analyzed, do it yourselfed, and examined as closely as Smile....it truly has a life of its own!

Reminds me of that essay from the late 90s (forget which one or who wrote it, I'll have to track it down) which proudly proclaims that Smile has more message boards devoted to it than any other album...oh, the days of being a misty-eyed fan of everything Beach Boys. Miss those days.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on June 01, 2011, 11:10:36 AM
Great discussion going on here!

Yup! Everybody makes good points, friendly tone...  :)  I like this.

I think Roger hit the nail on the head about how the level of ambition Brian had for the project diminished over time.

Yeah, while I think that BWPS is a great achievement in composition, it doesn't seem to be - IMHO - recorded with as much ambition as in 1966, despite the great musicianship and singing. But I love the live renditions.

And Cam, I say there is no historical SMiLE because Brian didn't deliver one at the time. If he had completely thought it out before going into the studio, which he very well may have, he certainly didn't stick to his vision. As Peter Reum said, albums change in time. Maybe BWPS is as close to Brian's vision as one could ever get. And as I said many times before, BWPS is the only SMiLE we've got, and how complete Brian's vision was when he started recording we will probably never know. That is, if there isn't an extensiv BW interview in the box...


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on June 01, 2011, 12:40:52 PM
And Cam, I say there is no historical SMiLE because Brian didn't deliver one at the time. If he had completely thought it out before going into the studio, which he very well may have, he certainly didn't stick to his vision. As Peter Reum said, albums change in time. Maybe BWPS is as close to Brian's vision as one could ever get. And as I said many times before, BWPS is the only SMiLE we've got, and how complete Brian's vision was when he started recording we will probably never know. That is, if there isn't an extensiv BW interview in the box...

We will agree to disagree.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 01, 2011, 08:37:17 PM
I disagree with you guys...respectfully.

BWPS is faithful to the original vision IMHO. The problem is that folks have not successfully recreated that original vision for themselves...they have not connected with the creator's process.

That's why when Brian says SMiLE was too advanced & inappropriate music to be making his honesty does not fall on empathetic ears.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on June 02, 2011, 01:53:14 AM
I disagree with you guys...respectfully.

BWPS is faithful to the original vision IMHO.

This may be true! Maybe we will know more when the box is out. When I said "Brian did not stick to his original vision" I meant if he has had one, he didn't stick to it in 1966/67 but put Smiley Smile out instead. How close BWPS is to that original vision I don't know. Clearly H&V changed radically from the beginning in 1966 to the BWPS version. That one is rather close to the single version about which VDP stated he had never heard it sequenced that way during the recordings.

We will agree to disagree.

Yup! Respectfully! :) And I don't mean that ironically!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 02, 2011, 07:40:56 PM
Interesting note regarding "Heroes And Villains" is Al Kooper's claim that it was a "You Are My Sunshine" kind of thing in May of '66 when he heard it (I'm going on memory here). So that may be the original vision.

We have the sun on the cover of BWPS so that appears to be on topic.

It will be interesting when the box set comes out. The original session song titles are pretty boss. When one hears the "rock rock & roll Plymouth Rock roll over" part in "Holidays" they'll flash back to an earlier title, "Do You Like Worms" (not "Roll Plymouth Rock"). That's pretty cool and removes a layer of Americana from BWPS.

When I said "respectfully" it was meant to salute the manner & style of this thread as well as the posters!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: desmondo on June 03, 2011, 07:13:54 AM
Really nice thread going on here

Just a reminder about the recording of BWPS in which Mark Linett has a lot of things to say about Brian's fades and hard edits http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Oct04/articles/smile.htm and how he approached them

Interestingly they took the same approach on BWPS in terms of recording the sections rather than the songs, I think with the exception of parts of H&V and GV - the details are in the article s I may be wrong

The use of hard edits and fades in Smile are a symptom of the modular style of writing and recording - just a fantastic and new approach back in the day.

As for the 12 banded tracks - fades, hard edits and segues could still have been used within those named tracks - CE and DYLW are good examples and of course GV


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: desmondo on June 03, 2011, 07:17:55 AM
I disagree with you guys...respectfully.

BWPS is faithful to the original vision IMHO. The problem is that folks have not successfully recreated that original vision for themselves...they have not connected with the creator's process.

That's why when Brian says SMiLE was too advanced & inappropriate music to be making his honesty does not fall on empathetic ears.

Yes Bill - I agree


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Roger Ryan on June 03, 2011, 09:31:52 AM
Re-reading that SOUND ON SOUND article, this passage jumped out at me..

...According to Mark Linett, it was physically snipped off and added to a separate compilation reel (which also included the multitrack master of the track 'Wonderful') so that Brian's brother Dennis could add a vocal. Mono mixdowns of 'Wonderful' and 'You Are My Sunshine' performed from this reel (the latter in 1968) exist as evidence of this, but the comp reel itself has disappeared.

Is this accurate? Did Dennis record his vocal for "You Were My Sunshine" in '68? Or does the article mean that the mono mixdown was done in '68? Is the article simply wrong and the writer meant that the "Cabin Essence" lead vocal was recorded in '68?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on June 06, 2011, 12:09:50 AM
When I said "respectfully" it was meant to salute the manner & style of this thread as well as the posters!

And that's the way I interpreted it. When I said "And I don't mean that ironically" I didn't imply you were ironic when you said "respectfully", I only wanted to make clear I wasn't ironic about it. I'm fond of the manners here too!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: desmondo on June 06, 2011, 07:33:19 AM
Re-reading that SOUND ON SOUND article, this passage jumped out at me..

...According to Mark Linett, it was physically snipped off and added to a separate compilation reel (which also included the multitrack master of the track 'Wonderful') so that Brian's brother Dennis could add a vocal. Mono mixdowns of 'Wonderful' and 'You Are My Sunshine' performed from this reel (the latter in 1968) exist as evidence of this, but the comp reel itself has disappeared.

Is this accurate? Did Dennis record his vocal for "You Were My Sunshine" in '68? Or does the article mean that the mono mixdown was done in '68? Is the article simply wrong and the writer meant that the "Cabin Essence" lead vocal was recorded in '68?

..... or was more work done on Smile tracks in 68 but they never made it to 20/20??????


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 06, 2011, 11:16:24 AM
Re-reading that SOUND ON SOUND article, this passage jumped out at me..

...According to Mark Linett, it was physically snipped off and added to a separate compilation reel (which also included the multitrack master of the track 'Wonderful') so that Brian's brother Dennis could add a vocal. Mono mixdowns of 'Wonderful' and 'You Are My Sunshine' performed from this reel (the latter in 1968) exist as evidence of this, but the comp reel itself has disappeared.

Is this accurate? Did Dennis record his vocal for "You Were My Sunshine" in '68? Or does the article mean that the mono mixdown was done in '68? Is the article simply wrong and the writer meant that the "Cabin Essence" lead vocal was recorded in '68?

Hello ?

"Mono mixdowns of 'Wonderful' and 'You Are My Sunshine' performed from this reel (the latter in 1968)"

Mixes, not recording. Do you see the word "recording" in this sentence ?  I don't see the word "recording" in this sentence.  ::)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: bgas on June 06, 2011, 11:54:17 AM
Re-reading that SOUND ON SOUND article, this passage jumped out at me..

...According to Mark Linett, it was physically snipped off and added to a separate compilation reel (which also included the multitrack master of the track 'Wonderful') so that Brian's brother Dennis could add a vocal. Mono mixdowns of 'Wonderful' and 'You Are My Sunshine' performed from this reel (the latter in 1968) exist as evidence of this, but the comp reel itself has disappeared.

Is this accurate? Did Dennis record his vocal for "You Were My Sunshine" in '68? Or does the article mean that the mono mixdown was done in '68? Is the article simply wrong and the writer meant that the "Cabin Essence" lead vocal was recorded in '68?

Hello ?

"Mono mixdowns of 'Wonderful' and 'You Are My Sunshine' performed from this reel (the latter in 1968)"

Mixes, not recording. Do you see the word "recording" in this sentence ?  I don't see the word "recording" in this sentence.  ::)

Sure I see "recording " twice. Once in each of your sentences; what'syer point?  ::)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Roger Ryan on June 06, 2011, 08:10:29 PM
Re-reading that SOUND ON SOUND article, this passage jumped out at me..

...According to Mark Linett, it was physically snipped off and added to a separate compilation reel (which also included the multitrack master of the track 'Wonderful') so that Brian's brother Dennis could add a vocal. Mono mixdowns of 'Wonderful' and 'You Are My Sunshine' performed from this reel (the latter in 1968) exist as evidence of this, but the comp reel itself has disappeared.

Is this accurate? Did Dennis record his vocal for "You Were My Sunshine" in '68? Or does the article mean that the mono mixdown was done in '68? Is the article simply wrong and the writer meant that the "Cabin Essence" lead vocal was recorded in '68?

Hello ?

"Mono mixdowns of 'Wonderful' and 'You Are My Sunshine' performed from this reel (the latter in 1968)"

Mixes, not recording. Do you see the word "recording" in this sentence ?  I don't see the word "recording" in this sentence.  ::)

Well, I did ask if this meant a mono mixdown was done in '68 as one of the possible options. The oddness of the term "performed" made me question what the writer was getting at.

So...anyway...a mono mixdown of "You Are (Were) My Sunshine" was done in '68, huh? Was this done around the same time that "Cabinessence" and "Our Prayer" were being prepared for release on 20/20? It seems odd that such a short piece would receive additional work unless somebody thought it could work out of context as a b-side or as an album track.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: MBE on June 06, 2011, 09:37:25 PM
From time to time, The Beach Boys would go back and play or mix something from another project. Carl in particular seemed fond of doing this. I am sure the general idea that something could be used was there, but part of it was for personal enjoyment and/or organization.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Chris Moise on June 07, 2011, 02:41:01 AM
I disagree with you guys...respectfully.

BWPS is faithful to the original vision IMHO. The problem is that folks have not successfully recreated that original vision for themselves...they have not connected with the creator's process.

Sigh. According to every source when work was started work on Smile in 2003 it was to be a **live presentation of Smile material**. In other words, the Smile material was arranged or adapted for a live concert. When Brian Wilson was putting in countless hours at Western in 1966 he wasn’t working on how to present the songs for a live concert. I’m not trying to be snarky but can you see the difference?

Think about it...was Brian’s“original vision” to use samples of harpsichord and tack piano sounds triggered from a keyboard instead of a real harpsichord and tack piano? Surely the “original vision” included the voices of Carl, Dennis, Al and Mike right? Did the original vision include the 2004 lyrics for Holidays, Child and the song now known as Song For Children?

I can totally respect the opinion that BWPS is, let’s say, the best thing Brian has ever done but to state it is “closer to the original vision”...I don’t see how anyone can put together an argument for it.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: desmondo on June 07, 2011, 03:03:44 AM
I disagree with you guys...respectfully.

BWPS is faithful to the original vision IMHO. The problem is that folks have not successfully recreated that original vision for themselves...they have not connected with the creator's process.

Sigh. According to every source when work was started work on Smile in 2003 it was to be a **live presentation of Smile material**. In other words, the Smile material was arranged or adapted for a live concert. When Brian Wilson was putting in countless hours at Western in 1966 he wasn’t working on how to present the songs for a live concert. I’m not trying to be snarky but can you see the difference?

Think about it...was Brian’s“original vision” to use samples of harpsichord and tack piano sounds triggered from a keyboard instead of a real harpsichord and tack piano? Surely the “original vision” included the voices of Carl, Dennis, Al and Mike right? Did the original vision include the 2004 lyrics for Holidays, Child and the song now known as Song For Children?

I can totally respect the opinion that BWPS is, let’s say, the best thing Brian has ever done but to state it is “closer to the original vision”...I don’t see how anyone can put together an argument for it.

Sorry but I'm with Bill on this - for me Brian's vision was a series of songs recorded in a modular way with VDP supplying the lyrics to match the breadth of the music.

Yes there are new lyrics but the original lyrics for Worms and Barnyard were used.

Yes it was originally a live production but quickly developed into a finished Smile

Instruments - the digital stuff didn't exist in 1966 and there was a desire to use proper instruments but Darian and Mark have said the ones they found weren't up to scratch

Yes to using the BB as vocalists but sadly two of them are no longer with us and in 2004 I doubt whether the quality of Mike and Al and Bruce would have matched Brian's band and it appears that in 2004 Brian didn't want to work with them anyway.

For me the 66 Smile would have been different if it had been finished and I don't believe the 2004 performances match those completed in 66 - Brian's band are not the Wrecking Crew or the Beach Boys.

I find it incredibly sad that Smile wasn't finished in 66/67 but am more than happy with the 2004 rendition.

Each to their own as they say



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on June 07, 2011, 06:23:09 AM
I happen to agree with what Richard said word for word in that last post. There are simply too many factors pointing that way. The music from 66-67 is magnificent, but Smile is a realized vision, not just unreleased music from 44 years ago. That it didn`t happen then is tragic, but that it happened is a triumph of human struggle and ultimate victory over internal and circumstantial barriers.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: desmondo on June 07, 2011, 07:26:24 AM
I happen to agree with what Richard said word for word in that last post. There are simply too many factors pointing that way. The music from 66-67 is magnificent, but Smile is a realized vision, not just unreleased music from 44 years ago. That it didn`t happen then is tragic, but that it happened is a triumph of human struggle and ultimate victory over internal and circumstantial barriers.

Thank you Peter


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 07, 2011, 11:47:58 AM
I disagree with you guys...respectfully.

BWPS is faithful to the original vision IMHO. The problem is that folks have not successfully recreated that original vision for themselves...they have not connected with the creator's process.

Sigh. According to every source when work was started work on Smile in 2003 it was to be a **live presentation of Smile material**. In other words, the Smile material was arranged or adapted for a live concert. When Brian Wilson was putting in countless hours at Western in 1966 he wasn’t working on how to present the songs for a live concert. I’m not trying to be snarky but can you see the difference?

Think about it...was Brian’s“original vision” to use samples of harpsichord and tack piano sounds triggered from a keyboard instead of a real harpsichord and tack piano? Surely the “original vision” included the voices of Carl, Dennis, Al and Mike right? Did the original vision include the 2004 lyrics for Holidays, Child and the song now known as Song For Children?

I can totally respect the opinion that BWPS is, let’s say, the best thing Brian has ever done but to state it is “closer to the original vision”...I don’t see how anyone can put together an argument for it.

Sorry but I'm with Bill on this - for me Brian's vision was a series of songs recorded in a modular way with VDP supplying the lyrics to match the breadth of the music.

Yes there are new lyrics but the original lyrics for Worms and Barnyard were used.

Yes it was originally a live production but quickly developed into a finished Smile

Instruments - the digital stuff didn't exist in 1966 and there was a desire to use proper instruments but Darian and Mark have said the ones they found weren't up to scratch

Yes to using the BB as vocalists but sadly two of them are no longer with us and in 2004 I doubt whether the quality of Mike and Al and Bruce would have matched Brian's band and it appears that in 2004 Brian didn't want to work with them anyway.

For me the 66 Smile would have been different if it had been finished and I don't believe the 2004 performances match those completed in 66 - Brian's band are not the Wrecking Crew or the Beach Boys.

I find it incredibly sad that Smile wasn't finished in 66/67 but am more than happy with the 2004 rendition.

Each to their own as they say

The third 'movement' didn't exist in any form whatsoever before summer 2003. According to some guy called Wilson. As for "the original vision", I don't doubt for a moment that in late summer 1966 Brian had a general outline in his head, but there's no evidence whatsoever that this was ever refined into a detailed game plan, much less that it was implemented. Ergo, no "original vision" to base BWPS on.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: desmondo on June 07, 2011, 11:50:17 AM
I disagree with you guys...respectfully.

BWPS is faithful to the original vision IMHO. The problem is that folks have not successfully recreated that original vision for themselves...they have not connected with the creator's process.

Sigh. According to every source when work was started work on Smile in 2003 it was to be a **live presentation of Smile material**. In other words, the Smile material was arranged or adapted for a live concert. When Brian Wilson was putting in countless hours at Western in 1966 he wasn’t working on how to present the songs for a live concert. I’m not trying to be snarky but can you see the difference?

Think about it...was Brian’s“original vision” to use samples of harpsichord and tack piano sounds triggered from a keyboard instead of a real harpsichord and tack piano? Surely the “original vision” included the voices of Carl, Dennis, Al and Mike right? Did the original vision include the 2004 lyrics for Holidays, Child and the song now known as Song For Children?

I can totally respect the opinion that BWPS is, let’s say, the best thing Brian has ever done but to state it is “closer to the original vision”...I don’t see how anyone can put together an argument for it.

Sorry but I'm with Bill on this - for me Brian's vision was a series of songs recorded in a modular way with VDP supplying the lyrics to match the breadth of the music.

Yes there are new lyrics but the original lyrics for Worms and Barnyard were used.

Yes it was originally a live production but quickly developed into a finished Smile

Instruments - the digital stuff didn't exist in 1966 and there was a desire to use proper instruments but Darian and Mark have said the ones they found weren't up to scratch

Yes to using the BB as vocalists but sadly two of them are no longer with us and in 2004 I doubt whether the quality of Mike and Al and Bruce would have matched Brian's band and it appears that in 2004 Brian didn't want to work with them anyway.

For me the 66 Smile would have been different if it had been finished and I don't believe the 2004 performances match those completed in 66 - Brian's band are not the Wrecking Crew or the Beach Boys.

I find it incredibly sad that Smile wasn't finished in 66/67 but am more than happy with the 2004 rendition.

Each to their own as they say

The third 'movement' didn't exist in any form whatsoever before summer 2003. According to some guy called Wilson. As for "the original vision", I don't doubt for a moment that in late summer 1966 Brian had a general outline in his head, but there's no evidence whatsoever that this was ever refined into a detailed game plan, much less that it was implemented. Ergo, no "original vision" to base BWPS on.

Oh well -we will have to agree to disagree - respectfully of course


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 07, 2011, 12:26:14 PM
Oh well -we will have to agree to disagree - respectfully of course

Of course.  ;D


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: 18thofMay on June 07, 2011, 12:41:06 PM
Fact, BWPS was put together for a live performance to demonstrate the music and lyrical collaboration between Van and Brian of SMiLE music between 66-03/04.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Mike's Beard on June 07, 2011, 12:47:35 PM
Fact. I'm gonna be playing the Smile Sessions boxset a lot more then I do BWPS.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: 18thofMay on June 07, 2011, 12:51:20 PM
Fact. I'm gonna playing the Smile Sessions boxset a lot more then I do BWPS.
You wont be Robinson Crusoe on that either!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: doinnothin on June 07, 2011, 03:52:23 PM
It's up. http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-08/music/brian-wilson-s-songs/

... or at least something resembling an interview is.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on June 07, 2011, 05:04:00 PM
The interview has a great narrative of the interviewer`s dad with Brian...the interview itself is only four questions long!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Chris Brown on June 07, 2011, 05:50:55 PM
The interview has a great narrative of the interviewer`s dad with Brian...the interview itself is only four questions long!

I enjoyed the narrative immensely, it's quite an amazing story.  The interview was almost an afterthought, but it was worth reading just for that story.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 07, 2011, 08:20:03 PM
Andrew G. Doe said:
Quote
The third 'movement' didn't exist in any form whatsoever before summer 2003. According to some guy called Wilson. As for "the original vision", I don't doubt for a moment that in late summer 1966 Brian had a general outline in his head, but there's no evidence whatsoever that this was ever refined into a detailed game plan, much less that it was implemented. Ergo, no "original vision" to base BWPS on.

A few years ago I wrote an article for either ESQ of Open Sky. The article had to do with the 3 part religious experience Brian had-- based upon the Surfing Saints article in CHEETAH!

In the article Brian points to the climax of the experience as the "moment of clear light." His words are "what you really look for is a moment of clear light, it's only happened to me once..." So the basic idea is that Brian's great trip is 3 part in nature. The pre-clear light, the clear light, and the post clear light. This same process in such vague terms must have likely occurred for more than a few people in the sixties. This is a 3 movement process & what I believe BWPS is (on one level of understanding) based upon. Another way to represent this SAME process is along the lines of birth--and death---and rebirth which is the terminology that Brian used to sum his whole life (in the Jules Siegel article). In this way a 3 movement BWPS IS based upon the "original vision."

Brian's explanation for his spiritual music (to Tom Nolan) indicates a singular experience based upon 2 LSD trips.

Peter Reum's documenting of Brian's claim of a 3 movement piece back in the seventies tends to support the 3 movement theory(as well as something along the lines of an original vision).

Also perhaps of note is Arthur Koestler's book The Act Of Creation which is actually two books in one. The 2 book book is based upon 3 levels of creativity which is illustrated across a triptych (some fans may remember Frank Holmes' use of the triptych). In any case this 2 and 3 dynamic is very interesting to note with regard to SMiLE as one can contrast the 2 sided record with a 3 movement live performance. Vega & Tables makes Vegetables.

One element that I believe is in BWPS which is a classical in nature is the Night Journey motif where a hero goes to the depths only to emerge renewed & reinvigorated. On BWPS I find this at the end of movement #2 & the beginning of #3 as well as at the beginning of "In Blue Hawaii." This Night Journey process has the same 3 movement dynamic as does the clear light idea and the birth & death & rebirth motifs. All of these 3 part forms are classic hallmarks of the spiritual religious experience.

Brian Wilson's '66 claim that he was creating "a teenage symphony to God" indicates an original vision for SMiLE and the 3 movement structure of BWPS does not contradict Brian's claim.







 


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on June 07, 2011, 11:34:21 PM
I fail to see the point in people trying to "prove" that BWPS is not done faithful to "Brian's original vision". OF COURSE it is different to what WOULD have been released in 1967 as "SMiLE". But even if there has been a completely thought out concept of what SMiLE should consist of - and I doubt that, as Brian stated he never came around to decide on a final running order - Brian junked his "original vision", tried to salvage as much of the music as he could and turned it into Smiley Smile.

An important part of Brian's vision in 1966/67 was to compose and record a great album that would stun people, using the musical material and lyrical content that he worked on at the time. Though the 2004 recordings mostly don't sound as good as the 1966 ones, I think he did achieve that with BWPS, and in doing so he was faithful to his vision of a great album - and to the content and what he was trying to say with it.

This is my interpretation: Brian was unable to decide how to assemble the parts of his "original vision" in 1966/67. And these decisions were finally taken in 2003/04. And the result is much closer to his "original vision" than anything we got before, notably Smiley Smile.

Now what I'm interested in is: What was Brian's original vision of "Heroes And Villains"...? 8)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 08, 2011, 12:13:03 AM
Regarding all these recent interviews with Brian, this salient point should be borne in mind: they were all phoners, everyone got tops ten minutes and it's evident that Brian was in one of his more monosyllabic moods. To me, the most interesting aspect of the whole process is the continuing interest in interviewing someone who is such a notoriously mercurial interview.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on June 08, 2011, 03:21:15 AM
Here's my interpretation, soapbox please: The only interest in movements Brian expressed in the 60s was movements within songs not within albums. There is '66/7 discussion of movements in songs and '66/7 evidence of movements in songs but no known* '66/7 discussion of movements or evidence of movements in the album. The '66/7 evidence shows he had the songs and their "movements" thought out and sequenced when he went into the studio, so he wasn't struggling to invent a sequence, he knew the sequence before he recorded. The sequence was within the songs. The album sequence may or not have been finalized but with a twelve track album where all the movements are internal to each track the album sequence wouldn't be the big deal it became when the sequence for BWPS was invented from the disassembled song/track movements. It is as likely that he had a final sequence for the album thought out as it is that he did not have one thought out it seems to me. As much as I want to believe that SMiLE was so romantically unobtainable and such a heroic struggle and as movementy and seguey as Sgt. Pepper and BWPS, I just don't see it in what is actually there.

Sermon: SMiLE wasn't junked because he couldn't pull it together, it was junked because he didn't dig it when it was pulled together. Respectfully.

*known BSS [before "Smile Sessions"]


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: desmondo on June 08, 2011, 03:56:31 AM
Here's my interpretation, soapbox please: The only interest in movements Brian expressed in the 60s was movements within songs not within albums. There is '66/7 discussion of movements in songs and '66/7 evidence of movements in songs but no known* '66/7 discussion of movements or evidence of movements in the album. The '66/7 evidence shows he had the songs and their "movements" thought out and sequenced when he went into the studio, so he wasn't struggling to invent a sequence, he knew the sequence before he recorded. The sequence was within the songs. The album sequence may or not have been finalized but with a twelve track album where all the movements are internal to each track the album sequence wouldn't be the big deal it became when the sequence for BWPS was invented from the disassembled song/track movements. It is as likely that he had a final sequence for the album thought out as it is that he did not have one thought out it seems to me. As much as I want to believe that SMiLE was so romantically unobtainable and such a heroic struggle and as movementy and seguey as Sgt. Pepper and BWPS, I just don't see it in what is actually there.

Sermon: SMiLE wasn't junked because he couldn't pull it together, it was junked because he didn't dig it when it was pulled together. Respectfully.

*known BSS [before "Smile Sessions"]

Cam

I do find a certain amount of favour with this particularly regarding the internal movements and how various fades and hard edits worked within these. However there are certain things that to me are apparent and I believe H&V is a good example of this - forgive me but I may be slightly out with some timings etc but I hope you get the gist of my thoughts. In essence I don't believe Brian had the songs all thought out in the beginning mainly because everything - well just about - was modular. He may have had a theme for each song but not much more.

H&V - the main verse melody part - was essentially conceived as a song in the sandbox with VDP present. I have no doubt that Brian had the chords and the melody before VDP joined him and conveyed the theme to VDP who then came up with those fantastic words - for me H&V is the perfect blend of words and music ever committed to tape.

In addition to the main verse bit, there is also the chorus (BR theme) - the two together make up a standard verse/chorus thing.

We also have the False Barnyard and Western Theme and of course the piano demo that includes Barnyard and IIGS. There is also talk of YAMS making an appearance at some stage and of course the Cantina section and late 66/67 H&V sessions among others.

So Brian has the verse and chorus but needs other stuff to truly make it a trip across the Wild West. Hence you get various sections that I think we are all agreed could have fitted within H&V at any time (various board members have done just that including myself).

I believe the problem he had was that he had all these sections for H&V and could not find a version that he was totally happy with (it would have done my head in). I think this was repeated on numerous songs including VT, CIFTM, The Elements and maybe WC. I think it was as much a technical thing as much as pressure from outside.

It was only in 2003 when Darian turned up with it all loaded on Pro-Tools that life became a lot easier - adding and taking away sections was just a click of a mouse rather than splicing, cutting and taping back together. I think that allowed Brian very quickly to realise his vision for SMILE.

So respectfully I disagree with your sermon in that I believe Brian junked Smile because he couldn't pull it together.

On another point, whilst I do believe that SMILE 2004 is the finished version - I do have  a problem with the third movement. On purely a personal level I think the first and second movements are absolutely fantastic - everything about them makes sense.

Its the third movement that bugs me - IIGS (the song) doesn't fit and IMHO has greater musical and lyrical links with the first movement as does on OAH.

Lets hope the TSS answers some questions



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 08, 2011, 04:04:03 AM
Here's my opinion.

1 - no-one knows much of anything. Even Brian. Maybe especially Brian (I'll say why I think so later). We're dealing with mutilated scraps, the odd, cryptic press comment (which may or may not have been invented/inflated by Derek Taylor) and a whole mess of conflicting interviews from 1966-2011. Even the guys restoring Napoleon or Metropolis had the original script to guide them. We've got, at best, a handwritten list which Brian may or may not have dictated, a back cover working proof he may or may not have seen and some tape box notations that doubtless made sense to whoever wrote them 40+ years ago but are now as lucid as Linear A. Granted, religions have been founded on far shakier foundations but you see my point. Everyone - everyone, yours truly included - is to a greater or lesser degree manipulating those few scraps, trying to make them fit into our own personal idee fixee and dispensing with anything that contradicts our chosen credo. It all boils down to the same result: no-one knows.

2 - Brian has absolutely no interest in the past. This isn't just my opinion, but that of people who have known him for decades. His musical recall can be truly jaw-dropping, as can his memory for faces, but the past is truly another country for him. They don't just do things differently there, as far as he's concerned no such place exists unless he's reminded of it. Once a project is completed, recorded and toured, that's it. Been there, done that, next. Therefore, once Brian signed off on The Smile Sessions nearly a year ago, it fell off his radar until he was called in to audition work in progress, as it will again until he's presented with the final (?) product to OK, and again when he has to get on the media treadmill to talk about it. Which, the observant may have noted, he's really not a huge fan of.

So, while it's always entirely possible that some has indeed accidentally stumbled upon The Truth, for anyone - anyone at all - to unequivocally state that they have cracked it, that they know The Answer is at best spurious, more often an irritating exercise in self-delusion (something I achieved back in the late 70s/early 80s on the scantiest of material evidence: did it with Spring as well, but that's another story entirely...). The Smile riddle will never be solved because, unless there's a vault full of neatly labelled safety reels, session notes and AFM contracts somewhere, insoluble. In my view, the best kind of mystery.  ;D


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: desmondo on June 08, 2011, 04:26:14 AM
Here's my opinion.

1 - no-one knows much of anything. Even Brian. Maybe especially Brian (I'll say why I think so later). We're dealing with mutilated scraps, the odd, cryptic press comment (which may or may not have been invented/inflated by Derek Taylor) and a whole mess of conflicting interviews from 1966-2011. Even the guys restoring Napoleon or Metropolis had the original script to guide them. We've got, at best, a handwritten list which Brian may or may not have dictated, a back cover working proof he may or may not have seen and some tape box notations that doubtless made sense to whoever wrote them 40+ years ago but are now as lucid as Linear A. Granted, religions have been founded on far shakier foundations but you see my point. Everyone - everyone, yours truly included - is to a greater or lesser degree manipulating those few scraps, trying to make them fit into our own personal idee fixee and dispensing with anything that contradicts our chosen credo. It all boils down to the same result: no-one knows.

2 - Brian has absolutely no interest in the past. This isn't just my opinion, but that of people who have known him for decades. His musical recall can be truly jaw-dropping, as can his memory for faces, but the past is truly another country for him. They don't just do things differently there, as far as he's concerned no such place exists unless he's reminded of it. Once a project is completed, recorded and toured, that's it. Been there, done that, next. Therefore, once Brian signed off on The Smile Sessions nearly a year ago, it fell off his radar until he was called in to audition work in progress, as it will again until he's presented with the final (?) product to OK, and again when he has to get on the media treadmill to talk about it. Which, the observant may have noted, he's really not a huge fan of.

So, while it's always entirely possible that some has indeed accidentally stumbled upon The Truth, for anyone - anyone at all - to unequivocally state that they have cracked it, that they know The Answer is at best spurious, more often an irritating exercise in self-delusion (something I achieved back in the late 70s/early 80s on the scantiest of material evidence: did it with Spring as well, but that's another story entirely...). The Smile riddle will never be solved because, unless there's a vault full of neatly labelled safety reels, session notes and AFM contracts somewhere, insoluble. In my view, the best kind of mystery.  ;D

That is what makes it such fun - n'est-ce pas????


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jonas on June 08, 2011, 07:22:33 AM
Sermon: SMiLE wasn't junked because he couldn't pull it together, it was junked because he didn't dig it when it was pulled together. Respectfully.

I like this line a lot.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: 18thofMay on June 08, 2011, 07:52:32 AM
Here's my opinion.

1 - no-one knows much of anything. Even Brian. Maybe especially Brian (I'll say why I think so later). We're dealing with mutilated scraps, the odd, cryptic press comment (which may or may not have been invented/inflated by Derek Taylor) and a whole mess of conflicting interviews from 1966-2011. Even the guys restoring Napoleon or Metropolis had the original script to guide them. We've got, at best, a handwritten list which Brian may or may not have dictated, a back cover working proof he may or may not have seen and some tape box notations that doubtless made sense to whoever wrote them 40+ years ago but are now as lucid as Linear A. Granted, religions have been founded on far shakier foundations but you see my point. Everyone - everyone, yours truly included - is to a greater or lesser degree manipulating those few scraps, trying to make them fit into our own personal idee fixee and dispensing with anything that contradicts our chosen credo. It all boils down to the same result: no-one knows.

2 - Brian has absolutely no interest in the past. This isn't just my opinion, but that of people who have known him for decades. His musical recall can be truly jaw-dropping, as can his memory for faces, but the past is truly another country for him. They don't just do things differently there, as far as he's concerned no such place exists unless he's reminded of it. Once a project is completed, recorded and toured, that's it. Been there, done that, next. Therefore, once Brian signed off on The Smile Sessions nearly a year ago, it fell off his radar until he was called in to audition work in progress, as it will again until he's presented with the final (?) product to OK, and again when he has to get on the media treadmill to talk about it. Which, the observant may have noted, he's really not a huge fan of.

So, while it's always entirely possible that some has indeed accidentally stumbled upon The Truth, for anyone - anyone at all - to unequivocally state that they have cracked it, that they know The Answer is at best spurious, more often an irritating exercise in self-delusion (something I achieved back in the late 70s/early 80s on the scantiest of material evidence: did it with Spring as well, but that's another story entirely...). The Smile riddle will never be solved because, unless there's a vault full of neatly labelled safety reels, session notes and AFM contracts somewhere, insoluble. In my view, the best kind of mystery.  ;D
About time....
Oh and I concur


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on June 08, 2011, 09:14:07 AM

I agree with everything my esteemed pal Andrew said. The best we can do is take the contemporaneous evidence and make the best interpretation we can and not get too married to any interpretation.



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: desmondo on June 08, 2011, 09:27:40 AM

I agree with everything my esteemed pal Andrew said. The best we can do is take the contemporaneous evidence and make the best interpretation we can and not get too married to any interpretation.



Agreed - respectfully


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on June 08, 2011, 11:45:02 AM
Oh yeah, and there is contemporaneous documentation of movements within songs but no contemporaneous evidence [of any kind that I'm aware of] for album movements. 

OK, I'll go lay down in the air conditioning.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: juggler on June 08, 2011, 12:45:56 PM
The Village Voice has posted more of the interview on its blog...
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2011/06/qa_brian_wilson.php


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 08, 2011, 12:56:01 PM
Honestly, you have to admit - that's a pretty pointless interview. Brian was on auto-pilot.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: pixletwin on June 08, 2011, 01:32:00 PM
Quote
Do you have a relationship with the other members right now?

No, I don't. Not really, no. I'm not really interested in them.

So you don't have plans to reunite for the 50th anniversary?

Right. No.

Are the original Smile studio sessions still coming out later this year?

Yeah, they are.



Is there anything on there you're looking forward to the public hearing for the first time?

Not really, no.

 :lol :lol :lol


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on June 08, 2011, 11:52:37 PM
Sermon: SMiLE wasn't junked because he couldn't pull it together, it was junked because he didn't dig it when it was pulled together. Respectfully.

I can go with that absolutely, because it doesn't actually contradict itself: He couldn't pull it together in a way/fashion/manner that he dug. That's why he kept recording and junking new sections, I think.

Cam, what do you think how thought out Brian's "original vision" was? Do you think he exactly knew what 12 songs were to be SMiLE when he started recording or could that "vision" have evolved during the recording process as Peter Reum thinks (to whom I agree about this)?

And could you explain "soapbox please" to me? I'm not a native English speaker, but that phrase sound humorous to me.

as movementy and seguey as Sgt. Pepper

I don't see Pepper being movementy. SMiLE does have three main themes: America, childhood (or cycle of life, whatever), and Elements. Whether Brian saw that as "movements" in 1966/67 is indeed unclear and open to interpretation.

no-one knows much of anything.

That's true, I think, that's why I see my views as interpretation, not as fact. Hey, is "Linear A" common knowledge?  ^-^


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on June 09, 2011, 08:27:56 AM
Micha,

The soapbox means I'm giving a public speech, sometimes as a crackpot.

To me too much is made of the re-recording. He put a lot of work in the GV single and it got done. He put a lot of work in the H&V single and the alleged Vt single and they got done. That seems like not being lost, it was just the way he did it with the singles. There is no over re-recording for the rest of the album imo.

To me it seems like SMiLE was being something in the fashion of his other albums of the period based on his desire to emulate Rubber Soul, a collection tracks that were separate but "belonged together" like paintings in an exhibition. So that was the album concept whether that changed over time or not I don't know, I don't see any evidence for it beyond a possible re-shuffle of the track order. The concepts for the non-single tracks don't seem to have changed much. The singles' concepts did change it appears, a progressive improving I take it, just like GV.

Sgt. Pepper is more seguey to you maybe?  "Movements" is probably getting abused, but you know people do see that as movements. Brian said in 1966 he wanted songs to have "movements". He documented SMiLE tracks for songs as "movements". Reporters and critics of the time saw movements in the songs. Years later Brian claimed he wanted SMiLE to have "movements" [was that for songs or album?] like Rhapsody In Blue. Does RIB have "movements"? If it does, isn't it a song with movements? It has been discussed but I forget.

Edit: According to Wikipedia [which we all know is never inaccurate, right?] : "A rhapsody in music is a one-movement work that is episodic yet integrated, free-flowing in structure, featuring a range of highly contrasted moods, colour and tonality." I don't know if that is what Brian meant. Sounds more like Brian's description of Rubber Soul.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 09, 2011, 10:08:49 AM
Hey, is "Linear A" common knowledge?  ^-^

If you're a Minoan scholar, sure.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Roger Ryan on June 09, 2011, 10:46:00 AM

And could you explain "soapbox please" to me? I'm not a native English speaker, but that phrase sound humorous to me.


Specifically, I believe it was common for preachers, salesmen, etc. to stand on a box (I assume ones used to ship soap) on a public street so they could be seen above the heads of any crowds that may gather. The slang "to get on a soapbox" means you are going to give a speech to try and convince others you are right.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: hypehat on June 09, 2011, 11:43:48 AM
There's another 'interview' which is kinda heartbreaking from the journalists perspective, because he's a really big fan and Brian can't be bothered. The ending sentence has near Kafka levels of despair....


http://www.nowtoronto.com/guides/nxne/2011/story.cfm?content=181103

Obviously his moodswings have swung the other way....


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 09, 2011, 11:53:02 AM
Most irresponsible piece. Naming Brian's fave deli - I can see a whole bunch of the more lunatic fringe excitedly Googling it. Classy journalism.

Plus, I'd question the opening, unless Brian went to Toronto for that one interview.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: rab2591 on June 09, 2011, 11:58:30 AM
Most irresponsible piece. Naming Brian's fave deli - I can see a whole bunch of the more lunatic fringe excitedly Googling it. Classy journalism.

Plus, I'd question the opening, unless Brian went to Toronto for that one interview.

After reading that piece that I couldn't believe Brian's management linked that article on his facebook page.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: bgas on June 09, 2011, 12:03:14 PM
Yep, here it is! 

http://www.yelp.com/biz/beverly-glen-deli-los-angeles


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: hypehat on June 09, 2011, 12:04:10 PM
Most irresponsible piece. Naming Brian's fave deli - I can see a whole bunch of the more lunatic fringe excitedly Googling it. Classy journalism.

Plus, I'd question the opening, unless Brian went to Toronto for that one interview.

After reading that piece that I couldn't believe Brian's management linked that article on his facebook page.

I can barely believe they published it!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Roger Ryan on June 09, 2011, 12:06:04 PM
The ending sentence has near Kafka levels of despair....

Well, Brian's been a fan of Morton's for a long time now and the interviewer did want to talk about restaurants. Personally, I find it a little pathetic that the reporter would dismiss Brian's favorite deli because it's not as elite as some of the city's more high-end establishments. I like fine cuisine, but I still wouldn't be eating at Mr. Chow's and its like all the time even if I had Brian's money.



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: No. Fourteen on June 09, 2011, 12:21:30 PM
Brian has mentioned these places in an interview before:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/24/entertainment/et-favewknd24


And yes, I googled the Beverly Glen for my last trip to L.A.  (Though I didn't end up going.)



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: juggler on June 09, 2011, 12:27:23 PM
Plus, I'd question the opening, unless Brian went to Toronto for that one interview.

Brian was in Toronto within the last couple weeks.

He was clearly present in CBC studios for two different interviews.
http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/guest-page/brian-wilson.html
http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2011/05/24/brian-wilson-clip/


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 09, 2011, 12:47:16 PM
Plus, I'd question the opening, unless Brian went to Toronto for that one interview.

Brian was in Toronto within the last couple weeks.

He was clearly present in CBC studios for two different interviews.
http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/guest-page/brian-wilson.html
http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2011/05/24/brian-wilson-clip/

Thanks for pointing that out. I need to eat more fish.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 09, 2011, 12:47:57 PM
EVERYONE could eat more fish ;)
Quote
The ending sentence has near Kafka levels of despair....

Quote
His restaurant of choice was the classic Morton’s Steakhouse, where he ordered the Cajun rib-eye.

Oh no....NOT the ribeye!!!!! :(








:lol Sorry bro...couldn't resist ^_^


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Chris Moise on June 09, 2011, 03:02:55 PM
We've got, at best, a handwritten list which Brian may or may not have dictated, a back cover working proof he may or may not have seen..

Doesn't the fact that the handwritten list was submitted to and received by the Capitol art dept almost certainly means it came from the producer of the LP? I don't see any significance in who physically wrote the track list. No way someone goes behind Brian's back in 1966 and delivers the LP track list to the art dept. I mean who would possibly do that? Diane? Carl? Even if someone did attempt this I can't see the Capitol art people going forward without Brian's approval.

I also don't see much significance in Brian's off hand statement 40 years later that he has never seen the handwritten list or back cover mock up. I love the guy but he isn't exactly known as a reliable source on this sort of thing.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Chris Brown on June 09, 2011, 06:53:15 PM
We've got, at best, a handwritten list which Brian may or may not have dictated, a back cover working proof he may or may not have seen..

Doesn't the fact that the handwritten list was submitted to and received by the Capitol art dept almost certainly means it came from the producer of the LP? I don't see any significance in who physically wrote the track list. No way someone goes behind Brian's back in 1966 and delivers the LP track list to the art dept. I mean who would possibly do that? Diane? Carl? Even if someone did attempt this I can't see the Capitol art people going forward without Brian's approval.

I also don't see much significance in Brian's off hand statement 40 years later that he has never seen the handwritten list or back cover mock up. I love the guy but he isn't exactly known as a reliable source on this sort of thing.

Agreed completely - even though it's quite possible that Brian didn't put much thought into the list, I still think it's an immensely important artifact that can give us a lot of insight about how Brian viewed the project in December.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 09, 2011, 07:44:47 PM
Just would like to interject on this thread about the approach that folks have forever taken regarding SMiLE & ask them to possibly try another.

First off I'd like to compliment Andrew G. Doe on his "opinion" post. It's an awesome post of the frustration which comes from approaching SMiLE from a logical standpoint.

Cam Mott has been at it for years as have Micha and Moise and the list goes on & on & on. I include myself in the list as well.

But the problem may be that we're not treating SMiLE on a different level & that is a level that is multi-level in nature.

In other words..... we're trying to understand SMiLE on a single level of understanding, and without fail various stuff interferes with our concept du jour. So then we change to another idea of a concept to explain & encompass it all and we fail again. So we try yet another & another only to fail endlessly. The whole idea that the album must be consistent on a logical plane (which is the approach we've all used) doesn't work, period. Andrew's post says it all.

Alan Watts' The Joyous Cosmology is essentially about a guy dropping acid & trying to document his experience in words. During the whole process the author is searching for deep meaning in his understanding of the experience. The meanings he extracts from the experience are on various levels depending upon how things link up for him in his mind.

With this in mind I'd like to ask folks to consider the following terms that are often associated with great art: metaphor, allusion, simile, analogy, poetic image, satire, illusion, allegory, and impersonation. Each of these terms implies something along the lines of a second layer of meaning that is not often obvious to a person consuming the art. Regardless, these terms & the art work that they apply to are very often held in high regard. The idea of "more than meets the eye" often separates the exceptional from common fare.

Does anyone really think that Brian & Van Dyke & Frank Holmes were/are incapable of making art on this level? I doubt it.

So then, maybe we should challenge our approach to the subject matter. Our approach has failed. Let's try another. Let's take this piece of art as something that's not on just one level but possibly on two or more levels at the same time.

That might require that we become little Alan Watts' searching for meaning. Heck, let's try it, maybe we'll find The Joyous Cosmology.



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: hypehat on June 09, 2011, 08:10:32 PM
EVERYONE could eat more fish ;)
Quote
The ending sentence has near Kafka levels of despair....

Quote
His restaurant of choice was the classic Morton’s Steakhouse, where he ordered the Cajun rib-eye.

Oh no....NOT the ribeye!!!!! :(








:lol Sorry bro...couldn't resist ^_^

 :lol
Poor fella, tho. He wants to talk to Brian about Love You and the intricacies of waltztime and instead all he can sign off with is Brian's choice of steak....


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 10, 2011, 12:41:44 AM
Bill, you've entirely missed the point of my long post: frustration had nothing to do with it. Read again.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: smokeythebear on June 10, 2011, 01:32:42 AM
For what it´s worth i do not think Brian was trying to convey zen riddles and metaphores and stuff like that with SMiLE. What he did try to do and still tries to do is convey the simple message of a song in a sofisticated musical way. Considerd insane by his peers at the time when he wanted stuff to sound like jewels or winds he was simply trying to enhance the feeling of the song by imitating real life. And that was his big discovery during the smile era that made his mind boogle with possibilities. For example how to make voices sound like water, how to make a steamengine sound through a song, how to imitate fire with violins.

He sent out people with wollensack recorders to get water sounds, he directed a symphony of silverware at a dinner, made people talk through trombones.

Insane? well not really when put into context. How do you best present a crow flying over a cornfield with chinese worker sweating under the sun at the same time driving in spikes in the railroad?

You can arrange it by

Circular harmonies representing the crow flying in circles.
The plaing of glasses bellow represents the spikes going into the railroad.
A slight detuned slide guitar represents the chinese music

So does it sound insane when you put it into context? not really. Does it makes the mind boggle with possibilites and open doors for discovering new sounds? certainly!

If Brian discovered anything on acid i think it was these possibilities, and making an album this way is very very hard work and requires alot of thinking. Not to mention the fact that people around you have no clue what you are actually trying to do. Imagine the retakes on the harmonies of "the crow cries", guys i want more breath! make it sound like alot of air and that you are flying, and the guys shaking their heads thinking he has lost his mind.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: smokeythebear on June 10, 2011, 01:51:12 AM
Lets take another song like til i die as a good example of how convey feelings and moods by giving some thought on musical arrangement.

Slipping into depression - Vibes with lots of reverb
Im going to die - Funeral organ
Feels like drowning - Vibes
I am never going to get better - Repeat of end phrase endlessly

I cant begin to describe how he thought chord wise but my guess is pretty similar.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: MBE on June 10, 2011, 01:58:43 AM
EVERYONE could eat more fish ;)
Quote
The ending sentence has near Kafka levels of despair....

Quote
His restaurant of choice was the classic Morton’s Steakhouse, where he ordered the Cajun rib-eye.

Oh no....NOT the ribeye!!!!! :(


I like a nice T-bone myself but Morton's is just OK to me. I like local places better.





:lol Sorry bro...couldn't resist ^_^


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on June 10, 2011, 05:54:06 AM
Brian records "feels" and those are translated into chords, sounds, and arrangements. It is how he expresses humor,love, tragedy, and happiness, and so much more in his music. There it is, in the sounds.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Chris Brown on June 10, 2011, 06:59:54 AM
Lets take another song like til i die as a good example of how convey feelings and moods by giving some thought on musical arrangement.

Slipping into depression - Vibes with lots of reverb
Im going to die - Funeral organ
Feels like drowning - Vibes
I am never going to get better - Repeat of end phrase endlessly

I cant begin to describe how he thought chord wise but my guess is pretty similar.

Great post, very well said. Not to get us off of too big a tangent, but to me the chords in 'Til I Die represent the instability he feels, the tides/rocks/wind pushing and pulling him this way and that, never allowing him to just "be."  That's why there is no real "home" chord/key until the end, where he finally resigns himself to the way things are and will always be until he's gone. 


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on June 10, 2011, 12:32:39 PM
He put a lot of work in the H&V single and the alleged Vt single and they got done.

The VT single actually did not get done. One or two sections were used on the SS version, the rest was scrapped.

The concepts for the non-single tracks don't seem to have changed much. The singles' concepts did change it appears, a progressive improving I take it, just like GV.

At least for CIFOTM I recall a section that is called "verse" during the recording, but wasn't used in Brian's test assembly.

And I don't know if the continued recording improved the songs. The omission of the cantina section was to me a loss, and I'm not really fond of the "HV chorus" either. There's several quotes of people who thought earlier incarnations of HV were better. I wonder if transforming the BR theme into HV chorus meant that DYLW was scrapped.

So then what was THE original vision?

Sgt. Pepper is more seguey to you maybe? 

No, there's only two segues, right? That's not much. Not movementy, not very seguey.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on June 10, 2011, 12:37:01 PM
Specifically, I believe it was common for preachers, salesmen, etc. to stand on a box (I assume ones used to ship soap) on a public street so they could be seen above the heads of any crowds that may gather. The slang "to get on a soapbox" means you are going to give a speech to try and convince others you are right.

Thanks, Roger, I think I got it now. :)

Hey, had they used a soapbox back in the 60s, Carl wouldn't have had to constantly bend over when he was singing background live with Al.  ;D


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Micha on June 10, 2011, 12:38:21 PM
Hey, is "Linear A" common knowledge?  ^-^

If you're a Minoan scholar, sure.

So you're a Minoan scholar?

Well, trying to figure out SMiLE is like archaeology in a way, isn't it?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bicyclerider on June 10, 2011, 01:34:39 PM
He put a lot of work in the H&V single and the alleged Vt single and they got done.

The VT single actually did not get done. One or two sections were used on the SS version, the rest was scrapped.

The concepts for the non-single tracks don't seem to have changed much. The singles' concepts did change it appears, a progressive improving I take it, just like GV.

At least for CIFOTM I recall a section that is called "verse" during the recording, but wasn't used in Brian's test assembly.

And I don't know if the continued recording improved the songs. The omission of the cantina section was to me a loss, and I'm not really fond of the "HV chorus" either. There's several quotes of people who thought earlier incarnations of HV were better. I wonder if transforming the BR theme into HV chorus meant that DYLW was scrapped.

So then what was THE original vision?



Besides Good Vibrations and Vegetables and Heroes, other songs that "changed" or were rerecorded or sections rerecorded:

Child
Wind chimes
wonderful (Like Heroes, subsequent recordings never bettered the first)
possibly Surf's Up

and of course The Elements seems to have been a track that was either never planned out or Brian couldn't make up his mind what to do with the sections in the suite.



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 10, 2011, 05:52:35 PM
Andrew G. Doe said:
Quote
Bill, you've entirely missed the point of my long post: frustration had nothing to do with it. Read again.

Noted. I expressed it poorly.

Your post STILL is an awesome example of how SMiLE is logistically frustrating.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 10, 2011, 06:41:14 PM
Smokeythebear said:

Quote
he wanted stuff to sound like jewels

What do you think Brian Wilson wanted to represent by this?

Brian had just had the "ultimate religious experience" and was on a "spiritual music" kick. He had experienced the moment of clear light (only once).

Brian told Andrew Oldham that people someday would pray to this music.

So what do you think the jewel-like sounds were to represent?

If it's something along the lines of the ultimate religious experience---then maybe there is another layer of meaning present in this SMILE thing.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 10, 2011, 09:51:11 PM
Smokeythebear said:

Quote
he wanted stuff to sound like jewels

What do you think Brian Wilson wanted to represent by this?

Brian had just had the "ultimate religious experience" and was on a "spiritual music" kick. He had experienced the moment of clear light (only once).

Brian told Andrew Oldham that people someday would pray to this music.

So what do you think the jewel-like sounds were to represent?

If it's something along the lines of the ultimate religious experience---then maybe there is another layer of meaning present in this SMILE thing.

Brian also told Steve Desper that he wanted something (vocal, instrument, whole track) to sound like the taste of a chocolate malt, or leaves after the rain. All it means is that Brian wants to invoke non-musical sensations via music. It's not something unique to Smile. "The diamond necklace played the pawn" - it's an audio-musical pun. John Lennon: "those of you in the cheap seats can applaud, the rest of you can rattle your jewellery".


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jonas on June 10, 2011, 10:07:24 PM
"The diamond necklace played the pawn" - it's an audio-musical pun. John Lennon: "those of you in the cheap seats can applaud, the rest of you can rattle your jewellery".

Wait, what??


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jay on June 10, 2011, 10:18:59 PM
"The diamond necklace played the pawn" - it's an audio-musical pun. John Lennon: "those of you in the cheap seats can applaud, the rest of you can rattle your jewellery".

Wait, what??
I just had one of those "...oh!" moments.  ;D That's the cool thing about a guy like Van Dyke. You can hear or read a lyric hundreds of times, but not get it until somebody points it out.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 10, 2011, 10:23:29 PM
Still don't quite get it...


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 10, 2011, 11:50:41 PM
Just pointing out that, using Bill's everything's-connected-to-everything-else dictum, it's obvious to me that John's RVS quip from 1963 influenced both the music and lyrics of "Surf's Up": it was doubtless reported in the US, and VDP would have been well aware of it.

Complete tosh, of course (but huge fun): I've always seen this as a pretty direct influence on said lyric:

The Conqueror Worm
 
Lo! 'tis a gala night
Within the lonesome latter years.
An angel throng, bewinged, bedight
In veils, and drowned in tears,
Sit in a theatre to see
A play of hopes and fears
While the orchestra breathes fitfully
The music of the spheres.

Mimes, in the form of God on high,
Mutter and mumble low,
And hither and thither fly;
Mere puppets they, who come and go
At bidding of vast formless things
That shift the scenery to and fro,
Flapping from out their condor wings
Invisible Woe.

That motley drama--oh, be sure
It shall not be forgot!
With its Phantom chased for evermore
By a crowd that seize it not,
Through a circle that ever returneth in
To the self-same spot;
And much of Madness, and more of Sin,
And Horror the soul of the plot.

But see amid the mimic rout
A crawling shape intrude:
A blood-red thing that writhes from out
The scenic solitude!
It writhes--it writhes!--with mortal pangs
The mimes become its food,
And seraphs sob at vermin fangs
In human gore imbued.

Out--out are the lights--out all!
And over each quivering form
The curtain, a funeral pall,
Comes down with the rush of a storm,
While the angels, all pallid and wan,
Uprising, unveiling, affirm
That the play is the tragedy, ``Man,''
And the hero, the Conqueror Worm.

Edgar Allan Poe


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 11, 2011, 08:37:17 AM
Arthur Koestler:
Quote
"...I have spoken at length of the close relatedness between the scientist seeing an analogy where nobody saw one before, and the poet's discovery of an original metaphor or simile. Both rely on the mediation of unconscious process to provide the analogy."

Frank Holmes:

Quote
"The (SMILE Shop) drawing is a surrealistic idea; a visual that is not accessible in conscious reality..."

As you can see in the above quotes, the unconscious process is needed to connect the connections.

Andrew G. Doe:

Quote
"...Bill's everything's-connected-to-everything-else dictum..."

Well Andrew, you're correct. I do connect & connect & connect. On the micro level you can always find possible fault with each and every little conclusion drawn but on the macro level all of the connections made point in the same direction and lead to the same conclusion, and this direction & conclusion corresponds to Brian Wilson's stated direction for the project, explain the styles employed for the project, explain the events surrounding the project, and his abandonment of the project.

Lately I've left Brian's bio out of the discussion because of your staunch dismissal of it. However, if one is to simply consider the 'unconscious' accounts in the book---the 3 LSD trips & the bookstore acid flashback---then the connection process explodes & a whole other layer of meaning is totally brought to life. SMiLE is transformed.

And this transformation is, once again, completely harmonious with all the other connections that have been connected.



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: FUN³ on June 11, 2011, 08:43:23 AM
Smokeythebear said:

Quote
he wanted stuff to sound like jewels

What do you think Brian Wilson wanted to represent by this?

compositional subtleties that the listener could detect only through lsd/hypnotically induced synesthesia


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: smokeythebear on June 13, 2011, 01:56:34 AM
My point being sometimes a cigar is just a cigar sort of speak. I dont buy the Zen riddles and stuff like that. But i do know that he used music to underline the lyrics. In wind chimes its almost as if the notes are totally random in places, just like real wind chimes. Some songs are mixes of inspirations like H&V.

Spector bass drum.
Beat clearly from river deep mountain high.
Scatting vocals that sounds like bullets
Gerschwin inspired chorus theme
A little bit of bach on the harpsichord


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 13, 2011, 02:25:21 AM
Lately I've left Brian's bio out of the discussion because of your staunch dismissal of it.

Not just me - every major BB commentator since 1991 has dismissed it as plagiaristic rubbish mixed with Landy's 1990 agenda re: the upcoming court case, including a guy called Brian Wilson. It's a deplorable piece of work, as anyone with a working knowledge of The Beach Boys and the literature devoted to them will realise.

Quote
However, if one is to simply consider the 'unconscious' accounts in the book---the 3 LSD trips & the bookstore acid flashback---then the connection process explodes & a whole other layer of meaning is totally brought to life. SMiLE is transformed.

IYHO.  :)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 13, 2011, 05:35:21 PM
IMHO is right. Those bio based accounts tipped me off that there was something else going on in SMiLE in the first place and it just snowballed from there.

Off the top of my head if you number Brian's LSD trips #1, 2, and 3 and his acid flashback as #4 is goes sort of like this:

Our Prayer = 3
Gee = 4
Heroes & Villains = 2
Do You Like Worms = 1 + 2
Barnyard = 2
Old Master Painter = 3 + 4
You Are My Sunshine = 3 + 4
Cabin Essence = 1 + 2
Wonderful = 3 + 4
Look = 3
Child I Father = 3 + 4
Surf's Up = 2 + 3
I'm In Great Shape = 3
I Wanna Be Around = 3 + 4
Workshop = 3
Vega-Tables = Koestler
Holidays = 3 + 1
Wind Chimes = 1
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow = 2
Love To Say DaDa = 3
Good Vibrations = 3

Of course there are more variables, especially Koestler, but there you go. If you remember Brian's comments to Tom Nolan #2 & #3 were the real inspiration....and there they are: the fire & water elements.

Of course #3 really belongs with each track as it is the reason they all exist in the first place.

I totally understand that this kind of thing isn't for everyone and SMiLE is certainly a big enough piece of art as to accommodate each on their own level (much like many religions do).

I think I've messed up along the way my trying to convince folks that seeing this other level in SMiLE is the way everyone should see it. Sorry about that. I'll just keep the ideas out there so that those who want to take things a bit further might have a better chance to do so then they would otherwise.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Loaf on June 14, 2011, 02:32:17 AM

I totally understand that this kind of thing isn't for everyone and SMiLE is certainly a big enough piece of art as to accommodate each on their own level (much like many religions do).

I think I've messed up along the way my trying to convince folks that seeing this other level in SMiLE is the way everyone should see it. Sorry about that. I'll just keep the ideas out there so that those who want to take things a bit further might have a better chance to do so then they would otherwise.

Cheers for posting, Bill. I love your interpretations. They really fit with my way of seeing Smile. Keep posting!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 14, 2011, 06:03:59 AM
IMHO is right. Those bio based accounts tipped me off that there was something else going on in SMiLE in the first place and it just snowballed from there.

Off the top of my head if you number Brian's LSD trips #1, 2, and 3 and his acid flashback as #4 is goes sort of like this:

Our Prayer = 3
Gee = 4
Heroes & Villains = 2
Do You Like Worms = 1 + 2
Barnyard = 2
Old Master Painter = 3 + 4
You Are My Sunshine = 3 + 4
Cabin Essence = 1 + 2
Wonderful = 3 + 4
Look = 3
Child I Father = 3 + 4
Surf's Up = 2 + 3
I'm In Great Shape = 3
I Wanna Be Around = 3 + 4
Workshop = 3
Vega-Tables = Koestler
Holidays = 3 + 1
Wind Chimes = 1
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow = 2
Love To Say DaDa = 3
Good Vibrations = 3

Of course there are more variables, especially Koestler, but there you go. If you remember Brian's comments to Tom Nolan #2 & #3 were the real inspiration....and there they are: the fire & water elements.

Of course #3 really belongs with each track as it is the reason they all exist in the first place.

I totally understand that this kind of thing isn't for everyone and SMiLE is certainly a big enough piece of art as to accommodate each on their own level (much like many religions do).

I think I've messed up along the way my trying to convince folks that seeing this other level in SMiLE is the way everyone should see it. Sorry about that. I'll just keep the ideas out there so that those who want to take things a bit further might have a better chance to do so then they would otherwise.

Bill, this is a classic example of your basic problem. You obviously know what you're talking about (much like the people who write the operators manual for, well, pretty much anything these days), but to anyone else, it just looks like you've allotted random numbers to songs by pulling them out of a hat. There's no explanation of why the numbers go where they do. Frankly, it looks nonsensical, and make about as much apparent sense as James Camping's calculations. Why is Prayer" #3 ?  Why is "Worms" 1 + 2 ?  "Because I say so" seems to be the only answer. Care to
elucidate ?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: theCOD on June 14, 2011, 07:16:36 AM

I totally understand that this kind of thing isn't for everyone and SMiLE is certainly a big enough piece of art as to accommodate each on their own level (much like many religions do).

I think I've messed up along the way my trying to convince folks that seeing this other level in SMiLE is the way everyone should see it. Sorry about that. I'll just keep the ideas out there so that those who want to take things a bit further might have a better chance to do so then they would otherwise.

Cheers for posting, Bill. I love your interpretations. They really fit with my way of seeing Smile. Keep posting!

Agreed! Definitely keep those ideas out there. I've been reading your interpretations since I started listening to SMiLE and I've always enjoyed them.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: pixletwin on June 14, 2011, 07:38:14 AM
Has anyone else had a conversation with someone who was utterly convinced that man has never landed on the moon, how Nostradamus' prophecies are real, or that Paul really is dead? This conversation reminds me of that.  :lol


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 14, 2011, 07:49:06 AM
Has anyone else had a conversation with someone who was utterly convinced that man has never landed on the moon, how Nostradamus' prophecies are real, or that Paul really is dead? This conversation reminds me of that.  :lol

True - there are Moon Conspiracy theorists who, were you to fly them there and show them the landing sites, would still say something like "well of course that was only put there just before we arrived"... or more likely, given their essential nature "you drugged me and implanted post-hypnotic memories: it never happened at all". It's on a par with trying to explain to a Little Monster that Lady Gaga is roughly 0.5% as original and edgy as they think she is.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: bgas on June 14, 2011, 09:19:16 AM
Has anyone else had a conversation with someone who was utterly convinced that man has never landed on the moon, how Nostradamus' prophecies are real, or that Paul really is dead? This conversation reminds me of that.  :lol

True - there are Moon Conspiracy theorists who, were you to fly them there and show them the landing sites, would still say something like "well of course that was only put there just before we arrived"... or more likely, given their essential nature "you drugged me and implanted post-hypnotic memories: it never happened at all". It's on a par with trying to explain to a Little Monster that Lady Gaga is roughly 0.5% as original and edgy as they think she is.

Whoa dude. I was right there with you til you attacked The Lady.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 14, 2011, 09:37:06 AM
Quote
It's on a par with trying to explain to a Little Monster that Lady Gaga is roughly 0.5% as original and edgy as they think she is.

LMFAO


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: seanmurd on June 14, 2011, 09:40:42 AM
Has anyone else had a conversation with someone who was utterly convinced that man has never landed on the moon, how Nostradamus' prophecies are real, or that Paul really is dead? This conversation reminds me of that.  :lol

Who are you guys comparing to tin-foil-hatted conspiracy theorists -- those who believe there was remixing done from the multis, or those who say the new "mix" is simply a left-channel faux-mono fake? Because the second option, frankly, seems more improbable to me. Personally, I don't know WHAT to believe, but I keep returning to the Mike Love "over and over" vocals -- they're DIFFERENT, and they're LOUDER on the MOJO single. If Carl's lead vocal tracks are indeed MIA, then my best guess is that some kind of digital jiggery-pokery (CEDAR or some such) has been done to extract some of the parts, so that a new mono mix could be attempted. The only explanation for the difference in Mike's vocals at the end are (a) they were extracted from the two-track master and isolated, and then dropped back on top of the mix, or (b) the 1966 multis of the backing track DO exist, and the second part of the song (from about 1:55 to the end) is indeed a new remix. No idea what the truth is, but a simple left/right channel extraction doesn't sound like THAT, and I don't think you could get this result (on Mike's vocal or indeed the entire track) with EQ alone. I promised AGD I would stop yapping about this, but I can't HELP it, gol-durnit!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 14, 2011, 09:47:10 AM
The only explanation for the difference in Mike's vocals at the end are (a) they were extracted from the two-track master and isolated, and then dropped back on top of the mix, or (b) the 1966 multis of the backing track DO exist, and the second part of the song (from about 1:55 to the end) is indeed a new remix.

Care to make a small wager ?  :lol


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: seanmurd on June 14, 2011, 09:59:06 AM
The only explanation for the difference in Mike's vocals at the end are (a) they were extracted from the two-track master and isolated, and then dropped back on top of the mix, or (b) the 1966 multis of the backing track DO exist, and the second part of the song (from about 1:55 to the end) is indeed a new remix.

Care to make a small wager ?  :lol

No fair -- you've got cards up your sleeve!   :p


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: seanmurd on June 14, 2011, 10:00:14 AM
The only explanation for the difference in Mike's vocals at the end are (a) they were extracted from the two-track master and isolated, and then dropped back on top of the mix, or (b) the 1966 multis of the backing track DO exist, and the second part of the song (from about 1:55 to the end) is indeed a new remix.

Care to make a small wager ?  :lol

OK, I'll put on my tin-foil hat -- the "over and over" vocals are NEW vocals from Mike, ca. 2011. How's THAT for crazy?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: The Heartical Don on June 14, 2011, 10:03:52 AM
The one thing that I've learned over the years is to not believe anything Brian says in interviews.

Hehe. I am suddenly reminded of an interview Brian once (IIRC around the '88 album) gave to an (UK?) inteviewer, might have been in Q Magazine.

Question: 'Brian, how much money did you spend on drugs?'

Brian: 'Oh, $ 100,000'.

I had to change my underpants and shorts after that.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 14, 2011, 10:25:59 AM
The only explanation for the difference in Mike's vocals at the end are (a) they were extracted from the two-track master and isolated, and then dropped back on top of the mix, or (b) the 1966 multis of the backing track DO exist, and the second part of the song (from about 1:55 to the end) is indeed a new remix.

Care to make a small wager ?  :lol

OK, I'll put on my tin-foil hat -- the "over and over" vocals are NEW vocals from Mike, ca. 2011. How's THAT for crazy?

As a famous scientist (Einstein ? Fermi ?) once said, "your theory is crazy - but not crazy enough to be correct"


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 14, 2011, 10:26:30 AM
The one thing that I've learned over the years is to not believe anything Brian says in interviews.

Hehe. I am suddenly reminded of an interview Brian once (IIRC around the '88 album) gave to an (UK?) inteviewer, might have been in Q Magazine.

Question: 'Brian, how much money did you spend on drugs?'

Brian: 'Oh, $ 100,000'.

I had to change my underpants and shorts after that.

Thing that made me laugh was, he didn't miss a beat.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Mike's Beard on June 14, 2011, 10:32:21 AM
Come on, Brian probably spent that amount on drugs in 1980 alone.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: The Heartical Don on June 14, 2011, 11:01:13 AM
The one thing that I've learned over the years is to not believe anything Brian says in interviews.

Hehe. I am suddenly reminded of an interview Brian once (IIRC around the '88 album) gave to an (UK?) inteviewer, might have been in Q Magazine.

Question: 'Brian, how much money did you spend on drugs?'

Brian: 'Oh, $ 100,000'.

I had to change my underpants and shorts after that.

Thing that made me laugh was, he didn't miss a beat.

Yes. It's an odd combination of being eager to please, provide an answer, and his weird humour...


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on June 14, 2011, 12:00:28 PM
Has anyone else had a conversation with someone who was utterly convinced that man has never landed on the moon, how Nostradamus' prophecies are real, or that Paul really is dead? This conversation reminds me of that.  :lol

Who are you guys comparing to tin-foil-hatted conspiracy theorists -- those who believe there was remixing done from the multis, or those who say the new "mix" is simply a left-channel faux-mono fake? Because the second option, frankly, seems more improbable to me. Personally, I don't know WHAT to believe, but I keep returning to the Mike Love "over and over" vocals -- they're DIFFERENT, and they're LOUDER on the MOJO single. If Carl's lead vocal tracks are indeed MIA, then my best guess is that some kind of digital jiggery-pokery (CEDAR or some such) has been done to extract some of the parts, so that a new mono mix could be attempted. The only explanation for the difference in Mike's vocals at the end are (a) they were extracted from the two-track master and isolated, and then dropped back on top of the mix, or (b) the 1966 multis of the backing track DO exist, and the second part of the song (from about 1:55 to the end) is indeed a new remix. No idea what the truth is, but a simple left/right channel extraction doesn't sound like THAT, and I don't think you could get this result (on Mike's vocal or indeed the entire track) with EQ alone. I promised AGD I would stop yapping about this, but I can't HELP it, gol-durnit!
Just a thought on the fold down theory. If Mike's vocal is centered on the stereo version, wouldn't his vocal be raised at least 2db louder?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: seanmurd on June 14, 2011, 01:14:51 PM
Just a thought on the fold down theory. If Mike's vocal is centered on the stereo version, wouldn't his vocal be raised at least 2db louder?

Just performed a quick fold-down on the stereo 20/20 mix, and Mike's vocal is even MORE buried in the mix in the fold-down -- sounds like he's singing from the back of a tunnel. In addition, Carl's vocal is a little more buried too, and it has that fuzzy phasy-ness you get when you fold down a track with ADT'd vocals. On the MOJO single, Carl's vocal is clear and crisp, and Mike's vocal at the end is as prominent as a lead vocal. IMO, the mystery continues.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on June 14, 2011, 01:20:34 PM
Did you try it in Audacity isolating the right or left track and then folding down?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: seanmurd on June 14, 2011, 01:33:07 PM
Did you try it in Audacity isolating the right or left track and then folding down?
I'm on a Mac, and the software I use has a "Mixdown" command that does it for me. Even doing it "manually" (reduce levels, copy-and-paste one channel into the other) I get the same results.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on June 14, 2011, 01:52:25 PM
I just isolated the left channel where Mike's vocal is loudest and I come no where close to duplicating the Mojo 45. I woiuld guess it is not a single track fold down in the true sense of the word.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 14, 2011, 01:54:50 PM
I just isolated the left channel where Mike's vocal is loudest and I come no where close to duplicating the Mojo 45. I woiuld guess it is not a single track fold down in the true sense of the word.

Ummm... exactly how do you fold down a single isolated track ?  ;)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: seanmurd on June 14, 2011, 02:28:23 PM
I just isolated the left channel where Mike's vocal is loudest and I come no where close to duplicating the Mojo 45. I woiuld guess it is not a single track fold down in the true sense of the word.

Ummm... exactly how do you fold down a single isolated track ?  ;)

I think drbeachboy and myself are talking about two different things -- he seems to be talking about a single-channel "mono" track (deleting either the right or the left, and saving the result as a mono file), whereas what I'm talking about (traditionally called a "fold-down") is combining BOTH channels into one mono track. I've tried both, BTW, and can't come close to what I hear on the MOJO single.  ;D


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 14, 2011, 02:40:19 PM
I just isolated the left channel where Mike's vocal is loudest and I come no where close to duplicating the Mojo 45. I woiuld guess it is not a single track fold down in the true sense of the word.

Ummm... exactly how do you fold down a single isolated track ?  ;)

I think drbeachboy and myself are talking about two different things -- he seems to be talking about a single-channel "mono" track (deleting either the right or the left, and saving the result as a mono file), whereas what I'm talking about (traditionally called a "fold-down") is combining BOTH channels into one mono track. I've tried both, BTW, and can't come close to what I hear on the MOJO single.  ;D

Well, we know it's not a fold-down, at least in the verses, as Carl's lead isn't doubled. I think the Good Doctor is referring to what I'd call a hard pan. Fact is, if you OOPS the 1969 version, allowing for the lead - which we know is ADT - and a shitload of reverb, the rest is essentially mono... which inclines me to believe they didn't have the multis to work with in 1968, just a BW mono mix/edit (I know, someone's going to yell "comp reel" at he any moment: the same to you, I say... and anyway, maybe they didn't know of the existence of those comp reels in 1968). If so, rather knocks the 2011-remix-from-the-multis notion on the head, I'd say.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: seanmurd on June 14, 2011, 02:44:31 PM
Well, we know it's not a fold-down, at least in the verses, as Carl's lead isn't doubled. I think the Good Doctor is referring to what I'd call a hard pan. Fact is, if you OOPS the 1969 version, allowing for the lead - which we know is ADT - and a shitload of reverb, the rest is essentially mono... which inclines me to believe they didn't have the multis to work with in 1968, just a BW mono mix/edit (I know, someone's going to yell "comp reel" at he any moment: the same to you, I say... and anyway, maybe they didn't know of the existence of those comp reels in 1968). If so, rather knocks the 2011-remix-from-the-multis notion on the head, I'd say.

You still haven't explained how Mike's "over and over" chorus pops out like a lead vocal, good sir...  ;)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 14, 2011, 02:46:52 PM
Well, we know it's not a fold-down, at least in the verses, as Carl's lead isn't doubled. I think the Good Doctor is referring to what I'd call a hard pan. Fact is, if you OOPS the 1969 version, allowing for the lead - which we know is ADT - and a shitload of reverb, the rest is essentially mono... which inclines me to believe they didn't have the multis to work with in 1968, just a BW mono mix/edit (I know, someone's going to yell "comp reel" at he any moment: the same to you, I say... and anyway, maybe they didn't know of the existence of those comp reels in 1968). If so, rather knocks the 2011-remix-from-the-multis notion on the head, I'd say.

You still haven't explained how Mike's "over and over" chorus pops out like a lead vocal, good sir...  ;)

True, I haven't.

Yet...


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on June 14, 2011, 03:53:27 PM
I agree that it is definitely not a fold down. It also does not sound like a straight hard pan, as I could not produce either Mike or Carl's vocals up like they are on the 45. I tried isolating both left and right channels and neither produced what is on the 45. I only used audacity and nothing professional, but ML must of altered the track or did a lot of futzing if he did do the hard panning of the stereo track.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 14, 2011, 05:07:37 PM
pixletwin said:
Quote
Has anyone else had a conversation with someone who was utterly convinced that man has never landed on the moon, how Nostradamus' prophecies are real, or that Paul really is dead? This conversation reminds me of that.  LOL

I'll admit the idea of an album with the ability to prompt spiritual enlightenment is pretty far-fetched. And therefore, obviously, the idea that I subscribe to such notions (via the bio's lsd depictions) is equally out there.

So then, what does "a teenage symphony to God" mean to you?

Based upon popular opinion it means a jolly trip on a bicycle exploring how great America could be (and I'm the crazy one).

So then, what if the album actually did secretly reference the unconscious trip spiritual level & document the ultimate religious experience?

That would mean Brian was telling the truth about the "teenage symphony to God" and his spiritual direction and SMiLE being way beyond Spector.

Apparently, smarter people than myself know that Brian really didn't know what he was talking about.




Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 14, 2011, 05:14:28 PM
...and all this time I thought VDP wrote the lyrics, and Brian the music. I mean, the idea that Parks could've came up with a thematic idea for the album, and Brian mentioned the idea in the press sounds too ludicrous to consider, huh?

Meh...at the rate things are going I probably won't be around for the album's release, and by this point I'm glad.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on June 14, 2011, 05:20:43 PM
I'm sure much like his association with Tony Asher, Van Dyke wrote lyrics based on ideas presented by Brian. Unlike Asher, who wrote lyrics away from Brian, Van Dyke wrote alongside Brian. So, it is not inconceivable that he contributed to the musical compositions, as well.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 14, 2011, 06:21:04 PM
And Brian's comments about the lyrics "maybe they work, I don't know" in the Jules Siegel article illustrate that they (Brian & Van Dyke) are on the same experimental page. Brian then goes on to affirm his commitment to his "spiritual music."



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 14, 2011, 06:27:48 PM
Quote
And Brian's comments about the lyrics "maybe they work, I don't know" in the Jules Siegel article illustrate that they (Brian & Van Dyke) are on the same experimental page.

...or having doubts, perhaps? Considering how close it was to Smile being cancelled, I have a strong feeling that may be the case.



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on June 14, 2011, 06:37:33 PM
If you're making an album about America you don't cash in the chips because you have a song about the Great Chicago Fire.

But if you're making an album that's gonna transmit your spiritual experience to unsuspecting listeners you might second guess your original concept along the way. You may even abandon it. You might even call it "inappropriate music to be making."



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 14, 2011, 11:53:42 PM
So then, what if the album actually did secretly reference the unconscious trip spiritual level & document the ultimate religious experience?

Bill, given that we've all devoted no little item and effort considering your notions, try this one of mine on for size:

What if it doesn't ?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Mike's Beard on June 15, 2011, 12:08:21 AM
So then, what if the album actually did secretly reference the unconscious trip spiritual level & document the ultimate religious experience?

Bill, given that we've all devoted no little item and effort considering your notions, try this one of mine on for size:

What if it doesn't ?

How about this for an outrageous, far fetched theory? Smile is just a pop/rock album. A great one from one of the top composers and producers of the era. No hidden key to the mysteries of the cosmos, just a fantastic, creative piece of work that fell at the final hurdle due to it's creator's lack of confidence and self inflicted impossibly high standards.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 15, 2011, 12:08:55 AM
:D


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: 18thofMay on June 15, 2011, 12:16:10 AM
So then, what if the album actually did secretly reference the unconscious trip spiritual level & document the ultimate religious experience?

Bill, given that we've all devoted no little item and effort considering your notions, try this one of mine on for size:

What if it doesn't ?

How about this for an outrageous, far fetched theory? Smile is just a pop/rock album. A great one from one of the top composers and producers of the era. No hidden key to the mysteries of the cosmos, just a fantastic, creative piece of work that fell at the final hurdle due to it's creator's lack of confidence and self inflicted impossibly high standards.
Thats the the truth of it!!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 15, 2011, 12:36:16 AM
So then, what if the album actually did secretly reference the unconscious trip spiritual level & document the ultimate religious experience?

Bill, given that we've all devoted no little item and effort considering your notions, try this one of mine on for size:

What if it doesn't ?

How about this for an outrageous, far fetched theory? Smile is just a pop/rock album. A great one from one of the top composers and producers of the era. No hidden key to the mysteries of the cosmos, just a fantastic, creative piece of work that fell at the final hurdle due to it's creator's lack of confidence and self inflicted impossibly high standards.

Who let this crazed fool in here ? Security !


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Loaf on June 15, 2011, 03:39:32 AM

Smile is just a pop/rock album.


No way.

Surely even the fact we are all debating this issue shows that there is more to it than"just" pop/rock music.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Loaf on June 15, 2011, 03:43:14 AM
So then, what if the album actually did secretly reference the unconscious trip spiritual level & document the ultimate religious experience?

Bill, given that we've all devoted no little item and effort considering your notions, try this one of mine on for size:

What if it doesn't ?

I guess you can't tell someone something he doesn't want to hear :)


I see Smile as being "psychedelic" music, and many psychedelic musicians have seen music as a route to spiritual enlightenment. Not just psychedelic musicians, what about John Coltrane? (not coincidentally doing it as the same time as Brian Wilson).


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: pixletwin on June 15, 2011, 07:38:23 AM


How about this for an outrageous, far fetched theory? Smile is just a pop/rock album. A great one from one of the top composers and producers of the era. No hidden key to the mysteries of the cosmos, just a fantastic, creative piece of work that fell at the final hurdle due to it's creator's lack of confidence and self inflicted impossibly high standards.

If your post had sound and that sound could be translated as an image of Jean Luc Picard, it would look like this:

(http://www.candy95.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/captain-picard-full-of-win-500x381.jpg)



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 15, 2011, 08:39:00 AM

Smile is just a pop/rock album.


No way.

Surely even the fact we are all debating this issue shows that there is more to it than"just" pop/rock music.

Not necessarily. You'd be surprised the platitudes laid on other albums by die hard fans...some of it puts the Smile worship to shame. At the end of the day, Smile is a pop/rock album (rather, WOULD have been), albeit an incredibly groundbreaking album.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Myk Luhv on June 15, 2011, 08:51:40 AM
I eagerly await the release of The Smile Sessions 1966-67 so we can move on to bigger and better things. Where's my mythical Argus Sessions 1971-72 release?!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: bgas on June 15, 2011, 09:17:41 AM
I eagerly await the release of The Smile Sessions 1966-67 so we can move on to bigger and better things. Where's my mythical Argus Sessions 1971-72 release?!

Why would anyone want more than the 2007 Deluxe version?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Mike's Beard on June 15, 2011, 09:22:47 AM

Smile is just a pop/rock album.


No way.

Surely even the fact we are all debating this issue shows that there is more to it than"just" pop/rock music.

The reason it's debated so much is because it was never released. And even if it had of been, the world would have still pretty much kept on turning the same as always.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Loaf on June 15, 2011, 10:09:46 AM

Smile is just a pop/rock album.


No way.

Surely even the fact we are all debating this issue shows that there is more to it than"just" pop/rock music.

The reason it's debated so much is because it was never released. And even if it had of been, the world would have still pretty much kept on turning the same as always.

Sweet Insanity wasn't released but it doesn't generate this kind or level of debate :)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Mike's Beard on June 15, 2011, 10:45:58 AM

Smile is just a pop/rock album.


No way.

Surely even the fact we are all debating this issue shows that there is more to it than"just" pop/rock music.

The reason it's debated so much is because it was never released. And even if it had of been, the world would have still pretty much kept on turning the same as always.

Sweet Insanity wasn't released but it doesn't generate this kind or level of debate :)

True, but give Bill enough time and he may yet  furnish us with his theories on the deep philosophical leanings of "Smart Girls".


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 15, 2011, 10:58:56 AM
Yeah, when he said "Smart Girls are AWESOME, DUDE", what he really was referring to was the plight of the defenders of the Alamo. The drum machine was a representation of Santa Anna's soldiers climbing the Alamo's walls.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jeff on June 15, 2011, 12:07:46 PM


How about this for an outrageous, far fetched theory? Smile is just a pop/rock album. A great one from one of the top composers and producers of the era. No hidden key to the mysteries of the cosmos, just a fantastic, creative piece of work that fell at the final hurdle due to it's creator's lack of confidence and self inflicted impossibly high standards.

If your post had sound and that sound could be translated as an image of Jean Luc Picard, it would look like this:

(http://www.candy95.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/captain-picard-full-of-win-500x381.jpg)



What is it with some of you people?  You’re just SO eager to discredit people with theories that suggest any deviation from what you’ve come up with yourself.  Why not consider that everyone here is a big Smile fan?  We’re all on the same side.  Yet you post a smarmy picture in an attempt to rub Bill’s nose in the fact that some random poster agrees with you … really, that’s just mean and uncalled for.

I don’t know which, if any, of Bill’s or Fishmonk’s theories are correct, but at least they get us talking and thinking.  On the other hand, the notion that Smile is nothing more than a well-done, straight-forward pop album basically banishes all such thought, with the implication that anyone who dares to post something interesting should be consigned to the loony bin.  And then you post your juvenile, self-congratulatory picture to emphasize the point.

How ‘bout this—If Smile is so straight-forward, explain to me the lyrics of He Gives Speeches (the specific words, not the overall), and point me to lyrics in any other pop song that remotely compare.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: pixletwin on June 15, 2011, 12:24:30 PM
I thought Mike's Beard posted a simple, effective and succinct response to Bill's theory. I posted the picture to lighten the mood. Clearly mission accomplished.  ::)

Lighten up Jeff.



Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 15, 2011, 12:32:00 PM
I can't speak for anyone else here, but my own personal beef is the fact that they act like their theories are 100% fact and everyone who doesn't agree with them is a fool. More to the point, they continue to argue their point even when presented with evidence that contradicts their viewpoint . That's my issue with it.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Mike's Beard on June 15, 2011, 01:18:35 PM
It's more to do with the way they speak about him, you'd think that Brian was the only guy in the mid 60's pop scene to have dropped acid. Everyone and their mother was turning on at the time and as a result music took some very exciting new twists and turns and yes often the lyrics also reflected this. But why this need to insist that Smile is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spiritual and philosophical subtext? I could pull any number of drug induced records from the same era out of my asshole and claim the same thing but it is no more or less valid a statement.

P.S.
How could Captain Picard be wrong?  :-D


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: drbeachboy on June 15, 2011, 01:22:32 PM
I can't speak for anyone else here, but my own personal beef is the fact that they act like their theories are 100% fact and everyone who doesn't agree with them is a fool. More to the point, they continue to argue their point even when presented with evidence that contradicts their viewpoint . That's my issue with it.
Actually, I haven't read where Bill was mean spirited in his respones. If someone calls him out on his beliefs, the only thing he has done is put more theories forward to help prove his point. Also, Bill hasn't presented anything as fact. It's just you reacting to it as though it was fact. I don't buy into all of Bill's theories, yet there is something more to Smile then just good pop/rock. It seems all of Brian's & Van Dyke's experiences and partakings of "stuff" did have an effect on the compsitions and suject matters on most of the Smile material.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jeff on June 15, 2011, 02:37:26 PM
I thought Mike's Beard posted a simple, effective and succinct response to Bill's theory. I posted the picture to lighten the mood. Clearly mission accomplished.  ::)

Lighten up Jeff.



Sorry, but I don't think you were trying to lighten the mood.  You were taking a piss on Bill because you don't like his theories.  Basically, you're trying to shame him into falling in line with what YOU think the acceptable view of Smile is.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: pixletwin on June 15, 2011, 02:51:57 PM
I thought Mike's Beard posted a simple, effective and succinct response to Bill's theory. I posted the picture to lighten the mood. Clearly mission accomplished.  ::)

Lighten up Jeff.



Sorry, but I don't think you were trying to lighten the mood.  You were taking a piss on Bill because you don't like his theories.  Basically, you're trying to shame him into falling in line with what YOU think the acceptable view of Smile is.

lol Well someone is sure seems to be bringing a lot of personal baggage to the discussion and it isn't me. I don't think it's Bill either. So that leaves - who? :lol

Anyhoo, if you cared to investigate my posting history on the subject you'd find that although I don't agree with Bill or Fishmonk I have also stated several time that I enjoyed reading their posts. So I am not sure why you chose to single me out, and in truth I don't really care.  Perhaps you don't like Star Trek? Maybe your life just sucks right now and my post struck a nerve? Whatever it is, as I have already said, you just need to lighten up and accept that this is a discussion board with all sorts of personalities, styles of humor, and Bill I am sure hasn't asked you to be his bodyguard.

Just chill and everything will be alright, mmm-kay?


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jason on June 15, 2011, 02:51:57 PM
(http://littleimg.com/pfiles/4171/wambulance.jpg)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Jeff on June 15, 2011, 03:07:07 PM
I thought Mike's Beard posted a simple, effective and succinct response to Bill's theory. I posted the picture to lighten the mood. Clearly mission accomplished.  ::)

Lighten up Jeff.



Sorry, but I don't think you were trying to lighten the mood.  You were taking a piss on Bill because you don't like his theories.  Basically, you're trying to shame him into falling in line with what YOU think the acceptable view of Smile is.

lol Well someone is sure seems to be bringing a lot of personal baggage to the discussion and it isn't me. I don't think it's Bill either. So that leaves - who? :lol

Anyhoo, if you cared to investigate my posting history on the subject you'd find that although I don't agree with Bill or Fishmonk I have also stated several time that I enjoyed reading their posts. So I am not sure why you chose to single me out, and in truth I don't really care.  Perhaps you don't like Star Trek? Maybe your life just sucks right now and my post struck a nerve? Whatever it is, as I have already said, you just need to lighten up and accept that this is a discussion board with all sorts of personalities, styles of humor, and Bill I am sure hasn't asked you to be his bodyguard.

Just chill and everything will be alright, mmm-kay?

Whatever bud, make it about me if you think that makes for a good excuse.  My point is the same: you and a few others don't like what Bill is saying, and you're trying to beat him into submission.  To me, that's rude, and certainly doesn't do the discussion any good.  More to the point, I like reading what Bill has to say (even if I don't necessrily agree), and I hope he continues.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: pixletwin on June 15, 2011, 03:13:30 PM
Jeff just report my post to the mods if it bugs you that much, but you are derailing the thread with your lame attempts at vigilante moderation.

oh and...

(http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/19262000/ngbbs4a220eaa7e32f.gif)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Peter Reum on June 15, 2011, 06:12:55 PM
Smile as released in 2004 is a concept album, and both Brian and Van Dyke have been quoted as saying so several times, most recently in Brian`s Canadian interview series. What can be debated is what was intended in 1967. I think every person brings his own subjective opinion to what Smile was back then.Minimally, it is a brilliant collection of songs. Many people, myself included, based on conversations with Brian and the people who love him, have spoken of his conversations with loved ones at the time where he said he wanted to create music people could pray to. Bill`s ideas about psychedelic experience and Zen Buddhist ideas are as valid as anyone else`s. Some folks don`t like spirituality much, or the idea that an album might be based on that idea. But there are numerous quotes from Brian from the period.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 15, 2011, 11:06:29 PM
Not saying Bill's ideas don't have a validity, and should be considered, but the way he presents them as the only possible answer, with the attendant implication that any dissenters from this stance are simply too dumb to grasp this notion, isn't making him too many friends. The continued reliance on a completely discredited book doesn't help either, nor does his assertion that there's no point in asking anyone about it directly because they won't let you in on the Big Secret (the standard fallback of the committed conspiracy theorist). It's one small step away from saying "because I say so".

It's also interesting to note that while he's giving us grief for not acceding to his view, he won't brook anyone else's notions.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Loaf on June 16, 2011, 02:03:04 AM
Not saying Bill's ideas don't have a validity, and should be considered, but the way he presents them as the only possible answer, with the attendant implication that any dissenters from this stance are simply too dumb to grasp this notion

I think the implication you are drawing is unfair.

As for the Zen idea being the only possible answer, that is unfair too. Bill's website "The Zen Interpretation..." says that "This webpage is based upon the idea that the SMiLE album is in essence a Zen koan, or riddle, an expression of spiritual enlightenment." The words 'interpretation' and 'idea' seem to suggest that it is a personal opinion.


my own personal beef is the fact that they act like their theories are 100% fact and everyone who doesn't agree with them is a fool. More to the point, they continue to argue their point even when presented with evidence that contradicts their viewpoint .


Again, not presented as fact, but as a personal interpretation. And there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with it. No one is a fool for disagreeing with it. Your determination to denigrate not just the idea but the people who agree with it is unhelpful and pointless.

You don't agree with his interpretation, fine. I like it, and that's fine too. :)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Loaf on June 16, 2011, 02:12:05 AM
It's more to do with the way they speak about him, you'd think that Brian was the only guy in the mid 60's pop scene to have dropped acid.


Hmm...strange that an emphasis should be placed on Brian Wilson...on a Beach Boys message board. :)


But why this need to insist that Smile is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spiritual and philosophical subtext?


You used the words 'coded', 'labyrinth' 'deeply hidden' and 'subtext', i presume to make fun and emphasize your point. But really it's no secret that VDP wrote/writes dense, pun-filled, allegorical lyrics with multiple interpretations intended. And the sprituality and philosophy in the music and lyrics seems not so much 'subtext' as 'text'. It's hard to claim that a title like 'Our Prayer', or the attempt to write a 'teenage symphony to God' is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spirituality.


I could pull any number of drug induced records from the same era out of my butthole and claim the same thing but it is no more or less valid a statement.


And I'm being serious here, please do! I'm a fan of this kind of music. I realise you were again trying to be humorous, but I'd love to know what other records you think might fall into this category.

And, they don't have to be drug-induced. John Coltrane made a number of incredible, deep, spiritual albums after giving up drugs.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on June 16, 2011, 02:24:44 AM
Quote
Your determination to denigrate not just the idea but the people who agree with it is unhelpful and pointless.

That's not my intention; my issue with Bill on this topic lies with the continued belief in things that have been proven false, (like Andrew pointed out);the other issue has to do with the fact that some of us were initially denigrated because we didn't share the same views about the music...not the one I'm pointing out here. Some of it is also poking fun (the Alamo/Smart Girls comment, for instance).

  'sides, at least we're talking about Smile and not the f*cking Beatles :lol


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Loaf on June 16, 2011, 02:28:45 AM

  'sides, at least we're talking about Smile and not the friggin' Beatles :lol

Hey, Paul McCartney said there are seven levels! How many do you think there are? And if you disagree with me, i'll denigrate you! :)


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: The Shift on June 16, 2011, 03:19:45 AM
When these posts first erupted in another thread I found them wearisome but Bill's taken a lot of care, in my view, to explain his theories, put forward evidence, and to make his posts less ethereal. Heck, even I can understand them now! And I find more and more validity in what he says. That said, I'm a believer in the fact that the BBs, at that stage in their lives (and for the next 45 years, actually) were primarily a pop/rock band making material for a pop/rock market. I don't doubt Bill's theories havea good degree of truth to them – and I believe the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. Smile was going to be a high-brow rock/pop album which alluded to deeper spiritualities.  There is  no single over-arking theme to the album – there's the Americana/conquest of the west stuff, there's the loss innocence stuff (Wonderful -  which I thought for a long time was about a woman masturbating, though I could be mistaken… and back in the 60s that was unheard of…), there's the elemental stuff…




zzttttssstttstztttz … need to reboot ……zzttttssstttstztttz … need to reboot ……zzttttssstttstztttz … need to reboot ……


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on June 16, 2011, 08:40:41 AM
It takes a pretty thick skin to wade into some of the discussions and debates.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Cam Mott on June 16, 2011, 08:47:27 AM
It takes a pretty thick skin to wade into some of the discussions and debates.

Boy howdy, right!


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: Mike's Beard on June 16, 2011, 10:05:27 AM
It's more to do with the way they speak about him, you'd think that Brian was the only guy in the mid 60's pop scene to have dropped acid.


Hmm...strange that an emphasis should be placed on Brian Wilson...on a Beach Boys message board. :)


But why this need to insist that Smile is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spiritual and philosophical subtext?


You used the words 'coded', 'labyrinth' 'deeply hidden' and 'subtext', i presume to make fun and emphasize your point. But really it's no secret that VDP wrote/writes dense, pun-filled, allegorical lyrics with multiple interpretations intended. And the sprituality and philosophy in the music and lyrics seems not so much 'subtext' as 'text'. It's hard to claim that a title like 'Our Prayer', or the attempt to write a 'teenage symphony to God' is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spirituality.


I could pull any number of drug induced records from the same era out of my butthole and claim the same thing but it is no more or less valid a statement.


And I'm being serious here, please do! I'm a fan of this kind of music. I realise you were again trying to be humorous, but I'd love to know what other records you think might fall into this category.

And, they don't have to be drug-induced. John Coltrane made a number of incredible, deep, spiritual albums after giving up drugs.


Congratulations, you seem to have missed the point of pretty much every statement I made in my post.


Title: Re: Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)
Post by: SMiLEY on June 16, 2011, 05:39:21 PM
Hey hey!

Ol' SMiLEY is back to talk about that Village Voice article!

You guys ARE talking about the Village Voice, right?