The Smiley Smile Message Board

I know this has been done before, many many times, but I'd like to see what this group of people think about this.

So as we know, there was a tracklisting printed out on the record sleeve for SMiLE in 1967.

So we can assume the following tracks would be included:

• "Do You Like Worms?"
• "Wind Chimes"
• "Heroes and Villains"
• "Surf's Up"
• "Cabin Essence"
• "Wonderful"
• "Vega-Tables"

However what does everybody think would have happened with the other tracks, such as:

• "I'm In Great Shape": Would it have been more than just the fragment? Or would "I Wanna Be Around" be included? "Workshop"? I doubt it.
• "Child Is Father of The Man": Would it still have lead into "Surf's Up". It sure makes sense, but do we have any proof this was thought of before '03?
• "The Elements": Probably would have had "I Love To Say Da Da" and "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" but what else. Lets not even bother starting this
• "The Old Master Painter": Was this always paired with "You Are My Sunshine"? Would there have been more to it?
• "Look": My guess is this was either discarded or possibly meant to be part of "Wonderful" as one track? Most likely discarded.
• "Holidays": This was probably discarded too.
• "He Gives Speeches": Discarded.
• "Barnyard": Maybe included with "I'm In Great Shape", maybe with "Heroes And Villains"....possibly discarded.
  

Anyways, what does everybody else think? Do we have any reason to believe that "Look" or "Holidays" would have made the album?

Still to me, that back cover tracklisting gives me trouble. How do "The Old Master Painter" and "I'm In Great Shape" warrant their own tracks. Alright, lets see what you guys think.

Given that  Brian completed an edited backing track to "Child Is Father Of The Man" (just under 3 minutes?), chances are that one would have been it's own song.

Good Vibrations would undoubtedly have been on the album.  In fact, GV is the only track listed on the front side of the album cover (final version of the slick).

I believe that "Child" would have been its own song. But does anybody think it would have been linked with "Surf's Up" as a lead in? Now that I think about it, probably not. I don't think Brian was doing that kinda thing, the Beatles probably did do that first.

Moreover, it seems unlikely that a 1967 version of SMiLE would have Do You Like Worms. Didn't Brian cut out the Bicycle Rider part from that to shore up Heroes?
 I don't think Look would have been on the album at all, he never returned to it later on. I wonder what the lyrics were about.

The only reason I say "Worms" would make it is simply its inclusion on the tracklisting. If indeed they released the album that year, they would have used that sleeve. The only reason they didn't use it for Smiley Smile was because it had a different title and way different tracklist.

I know he ended up taking part of "Worms" for "Heroes" but I figure he still would have used it due to it being listed.

I also agree with your reasoning on "Look". It was probably something he deemed unnecessary along with "Holidays" and "He Gives Speeches". I honestly think SMiLE, if released in 1967, probably would have been in a pretty conventional format. The songs would be something new and crazy, but its presentation, probably nothing crazy.

By the way, does anybody know if the cover was going to be a gatefold? I've been reading around that it wasn't, but I was pretty sure it was. With the front cover with the shop, the back cover with the "Carl/Dennis/Mike/Al/Bruce" live lineup, and then a psychedelic photo of Brian in the opening of the gatefold, with a booklet thrown in too if I'm correct? Let me know if I'm wrong.

Also were the whole 400,000 printed Smile covers gatefold or not disposed in the early 1980s ?

I thought the picture of Brian was supposed to be in the centerfold of the booklet.

It wasn't uncommon for Brian to put instrumentals on his albums, so what does anyone suppose that would be? The Elements?

The fact that the known mockups for the sleeve prepared in December 1966 were for a normal LP, and that no artwork for the inside of a gatefold has even been hinted at, would seem to fatally undermine your belief.

I believe you Andrew, but I seem to remember there being talk of a photo of Brian on on the inside or something. I guess it was just a fake or something. But anyways, who made the decision that Brian wouldn't even be shown in the "group-shot" on the back cover of one of the groups most "Brian-centric" albums. I mean I can understand Al missed the Summer Days shoot, so he wasn't on that, and I can understand that Brian wasn't on the 20/20 cover because from 68-69 there didn't seem to be many shots of Brian with the group, but why wouldn't he be in the photo for SMiLE.?

Anyways, back to the songs....any other opinions?

Gatefold would have worked if they were going to attach the booklet to the inside cover, ala The Stones Big Hits (High Tide and Green Grass), but as far as I have ever heard they weren't going to do that.  They were just gonna stick it inthe sleeve along with the disc.  The picture of Brian I believe you're talking about was/is in the middle of the booklet.  During '65, '66 there seems to have been a conscious effort to promote Brian and the Beach Boys as together but seperate.  He doesn't appear with the group in any of the photos on the back of Pet Sounds either, but only in "solo" photos.  He also is only in "solo" shots in the Smile Booklet as well.  Personally, I think a better photo to have used on the back of Smile would have been the group shot (including Brian) where they are all peering through the wooden fence.  Why?  I don't know, Mike's wearing a cowboy hat, would have gone along nicely with the western theme... :P

And (by the way) Happy Birthday to me!   :3d

'Cause all the photos of the others were taken while they were on tour ?  ::)

Lame excuse. Didn't they have a bunch of band photos from recently, post-Pet Sounds? And less striped-shirty?

The booklet shots were taken while they were on tour - in Boston, if I remember properly.

You know, I always wondered what exactly Brian's deal was with not having his own picture on the album. SMiLE was gonna be as much 'his' album as PS was, and he's on the cover of that. Weird that he would not have his picture on there, but still put his name on the back as producer. That is, if he even had anything to do with the back cover. For all we know, someone at Capitol could have chosen what the back cover looks like.

What about the zodiac symbols on the back cover?   That's a pretty strong clue that Brian had at least some influence on the design of the back cover.  Multiple sources indicate that he was heavily into astrology at the time.  I can't believe that someone in Capitol's art department would, on his or her own initiative, just put zodiac symbols on the back of a Beach Boys album.

Isn't it amazing that this December 1966-dated SMiLE back-cover contains "Vega-Tables", a song that wasn't recorded until April 1967?

Although the concept of "Vega-Tables" was first worked on in the form of chants and argument sessions in November 1966, according to this excellent website http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs66.html (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs66.html)

Although I usually just lurk here, I've spent way too much study/obsession/theorizing/etc. on Smile (nonstop, before and since BWPS) to not throw my two cents in.  First, I'm convinced the songs on the handwritten list and back of the album are indeed the intended 1967 tracklisting and with only a couple exceptions, they aren't too far from the album Brian released 37 years later.  Further, apart from some vocals and the possible exception of "The Elements", I think the album was pretty much done.  I also think most or all of the few changes made between 1967 and 2004 were done to allow Van Dyke and Darian (back) into the creative process, as Darian was the one helping Brian through it and once moving along, he probably felt it would be nice to bring it full circle with Van Dyke.

However, my thoughts totaled seven paragraphs and I didn't want to risk being raked over the coals for such a large post so I saved them in word in case anyone feels like reading them.  It reads like an essay but at least it's well written (IMO) so let me know if you want me to post it.  Otherwise, I'll just go back to my lurking post :)

Please, do share.

Of the songs, we know what several of them would have sounded like by listening to the tracks on box set and (in most cases) comparing them to their respective versions on BWPS.  These include "Wonderful", "DYLW", "Good Vibrations", "Cabin Essence", and (for the most part) "Vega-Tables".  We also have a good idea for both "Heroes And Villains" and "Surf's Up" but I'll get back to them in a bit.  As for the remaining songs (excluding "The Elements"), only one is missing the lead vocal (and possibly 60's era lyrics) and the other two are medleys.

As stated above, Brian prepared a completed backing track for "CIFOTM" and after hearing it coupled with "Wonderful" on BWPS, I finally had the answer to the reasoning behind the latter's abrupt ending (as I'm sure many of you did).  I'd bet my life the two of them were always meant to go together and I wouldn't doubt if Brian had at least some idea of the lyrics, even back in the 60's.  The recorded (backing) vocals aren't just nonsense words like "Oohm, bop didit" or "Wah wah who ha".  They're actual lyrics, repeating the "proposed" title and as eccentric as Brian (and the entire project) was, I doubt he or Van Dyke wrote lyrics for the backing vocals before having at least an idea of what the lead vocal would include.

Onto the other two, I'm thoroughly convinced they're both "shorthand".  Just as it is on BWPS, "I'm In Great Shape" is the self-titled piece, "I Wanna Be Around", and "Workshop".  Regardless of the tracklisting on BWPS, do we really think "Workshop" should be considered its own song?  Clearly, as with "IIGS" it's just a piece of a larger song.  And the same goes for Brian's arrangement of "The Old Master Painter".  It appears on BWPS (nearly) as the medley he always envisioned it to be: "Barnyard"/"TOMP"/"YAMS".  All those references to "the Barnyard medley"?  Hello!  "TOMP" IS "the barnyard medley."  The only thing missing is "Barnshine" following "YAMS" (as many people have said it did) but whether that changed before or after Darian's involvement, I wouldn't stake my life (tho my guess would be after; probably after Darian got used to it not being there, thanks to the box set, etc.)

So that leaves just the "singles"/"masterpieces" and "The Elements".  Everyone KNOWS Capital wanted the single version of "Good Vibrations" so I'm not even going to discuss it, other than to say I'll bet it was going to kick off side two, as opposed to ending it and I believe ending it was Darrin's idea, having realized how well it would fit with a reprise of "Our Prayer", which would have been the first "hidden" track (at the start of the album), beating the Beatles' "Her Majesty" to the punch by almost three years.  

And speaking of reprises, I'm convinced (sorry to keep using that word but I can't say it's a unequivocal fact, nor that it's just my "opinion") Brian always intended to include the "child section" at the end of "Surf's Up" to serve as a reprise to "CIFOTM".  (I also believe "CIFOTM" would have closed out side one and "Surf's Up" (with the reprise) would have done the same for side two (and the album itself).  Would the second movement of "Surf's Up" included fuller instrumentation (or even the same) as the first?  My guess is probably at one point.  Brian may have even intended to "fly it in" for the second go round; possibly with a couple of edits but I think after the Inside Pop performance was called "one aspect of new things happening in pop music today" and "a symbol of the change many of these young musicians see in our future", he may have hedged his bets and decided to replicate the sound of that performance for the second movement, as not to draw (possibly) negative comparisons to the version Oppenheim expressed such admiration for.

As for "Heroes And Villains, I'll keep it short but it's my belief that "Heroes And Villains" is the cantina version, while "Heroes And Villains Part 2" is essentially the single version.  They weren't specifically two separate songs (which is why many people have stated that was a just a case of misinformation).  Instead, I think they were recorded separately (hence the "HAVPT" session listings) with a clear delineation between them.  That way, if/when "HAV" was split between the two sides of a single, the split would sound intentional, unlike what we've all since heard on stuff like "American Pie", "Standing On The Top", etc.  To recap: Cantina version up to the tape explosion, tape explosion fades out, (flip, if listening to the 45), first chorus of the released single version to the end (possibly with the addition of Mike's "the heroes, the heroes..." part).

Finally "The Elements": "Fire" we know, so I'm not going into it but just as everyone "knew" "ILTSDD" was "Water" as soon as they heard it, I actually felt the same way about the earth section, the first time I heard "Fall Breaks..." Then there's all the "revelations" surrounding "All Day": "Oh my God. It's 'Air!" "But I thought '...Da Da' was 'Water'...."  Yep.  Just like "Bicycle Rider" is both "HAV " AND "DYLW" and "Child" is both "CIFTTM" AND "Surf's Up"!  Two themes four elements, one song, clocking in at a time not too crazy for even the most avant garde yet still VERY mainstream pop artist of the mid-60's.  Again, I could get more into it but I think that's more than enough to give you some idea of my thoughts.  Thanks for asking ;)

But then again, "Why should I speak? For I know nothing."

My impression from Geo Osaka [the SMiLE art director] is that Brian had input, even called the shots, because he was the Producer but George did the layouts. For instance, after seeing the album and boolet photos George remembered he wasn't crazy about the SMiLE shop drawing for the cover because it wasn't an image of the group. It still made the cover. Everything on the album cover was controlled, reviewed and approved by the Procuder after being checked by the Art Director, Editorial department and Legal department.  Why Brian wanted it the way he wanted it only Brian knows I suppose.

Guy Webster remembered some of the booklet photos of the Boys as being taken at Boston Harbor, Brian's were taken at his home. Some of the Boys photos may have been taken elsewhere.

Interesting stuff, Cam.
 I always thought  Brian had as much input as the back cover as the front (as juggler said, the astrological signs pretty much give it away), I just wondered why he would choose a picture for the back cover that excluded him-considering the fact that, as you mentioned, the front cover is not a group photo.

Perhaps Brian saw himself as the man in the background, the songwriter + producer, studio singer, but not part of the public group. Bruce had to replace Brian for the public eye.
Or because of the group-dynamics, Brian had the producer-credit on the backcover, the other boys got the visual recognition.
But in truth I think no one cared. It was just another group pic, with a special effect, five guys, the Beach Boys, nice enough for a back cover. Al wasn't on the Summer Days's Cover, so what? Brian wasn't on the 20/20 front cover either.

I guess the photos in the booklet were enough for him for whatever reason. That's a good point, he/they weren't too fastidious about getting everyone's face on every album. If it wasn't that, I'll guess Brian wanted the Boys to be the public face on the album since they were the public face of the group?

The reasoning behind the Smile album photos was revealed by Michael Vosse in, you guessed it, the Fusion article!  :)

Brian made the call on them. It was his humor trip - not the humor I understand in 2011 and completely sober - but that was Brian's humor.

First, he knew the Boston Harbor shot, of the Beach Boys looking silly and out of place in a boat on a cold day, looked ridiculous for an album. That is why he wanted the shot used.

Next, the booklet shot of Brian in his kitchen. That was Brian's wallpaper that seemed to pulsate if you looked at it a certain way, very in tune with what he and his circle of friends were doing in 65-66, so they did the split-screen image of it for a psychedelic effect.

Then, the cover art of the Smile Shop by Frank Holmes. Again, the suggestion is that Brian knew it was juvenile in a charming way, he knew it was childlike and had a touch of humor to it, so he went with it.

Finally, the striped shirts - I don't know if it was Vosse in Fusion but someone in the inner circle, if I remember, said that was deliberate too, to disarm or even trick the person looking at the cover into thinking it was another Beach Boys album and here were the guys with their matching striped shirts. As soon as you'd take the album out of the sleeve and listen all those notions of the kind of music a band wearing matching striped shirts would make would be shattered.

According to Vosse, all of these were Brian's choices and decisions, including the band photos like the one of Mike drinking milk in the booklet. They were all in tune with Brian's concept of humor at the time, but again I think in 2011 the nature of that humor is lost to history. It could be called absurdist humor, shots like the boat and the milk, or simple childlike humor like the Smile Shop front cover art. All of the shots were chosen for a reason, and it was not Capitol doing a random cut-and-paste from the graphics department.

A very important thing to take from Vosse's article is the notion that Brian thought humor was the gateway to enlightenment, and when someone laughed it opened them up for the more heavy ideas. That theory explains the absurdity of the Smile cover photos quite well.

One small question - what striped shirts ?

Checkerboard pattern, matching button-down shirts instead of striped. My bad.

Does the rest of the post seem accurate? :-D

I'd question the "another BB album/guys in matching shirts" as the band shot was on the back. The front would have been like no other BB album to date... actually, like precious few albums to date period.

I wish I could remember who that was and where I saw it or heard it, but I remember the comment that the back cover shot of the Beach Boys was deliberate in showing them with the matching shirts to contrast that image with the music actually on the album. But I could be remembering a theory rather than a fact!

Interesting to note - all of the photos of the band from Boston in November 1966, as seen in the Smile booklet, show them wearing the checkerboard shirts. BUT - a photo from radio station WRKO that has the 'RKO DJ's posing with the band and their instruments in Boston shows them with the striped shirts. I'm guessing it's the 1966 Boston show because Mike is standing in front of the Theremin/Ribbon Controller, unless they played a Boston show in '67 where the photo was taken.

I agree totally Phoenix about the elements notion of two themes, four songs... I thought that was a great post.

Do you think that the Intro to H&V, as is listed on the boxset would've kicked off the single?

What is your final notion for the tracklisting? I have my own ideas that I put too much thought into, but definitely GV would've started side 2. I also think that there would have been very different single versions of the songs as compared to the album versions...i.e. SOT Wonderful and CIFOTM versions...anyways, great post Phoenix...the thread has taken a major tangent...

In actuality-the Keith Badman book states that they shot that photo in Boston on the Nov 1966 tour but unfortunately research by me has shown that the date was one of Keith's many errors.  BBs were actually in Hartford, CT on Nov 17 1966 and skipped Boston on that tour.  Though-they could have stopped in Boston to have a photo session.

Several years ago Guy Webster told me some were shot at Boston Harbor so I guess they did the shoot after visiting WRKO.

Ian, thanks for that info, this is very interesting! If you could, please take a look at this photo, and I'm putting the link because the photo is literally huge and wouldn't work for this post:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kvpe5gk5TL1qax8c7o1_500.jpg

This was included in literature and a record album compilation from Boston's top 40 station WRKO. Please take a look at it and tell me if you think like I do that it dates from 1966. The Smile photos, like the boat, I believe were definitely taken in Boston, and Vosse even says it was Boston in the Fusion piece if I recall. Maybe they just stopped by? Or perhaps a show was played that's benn lost to history (I doubt that, but still...)

Either way, notice that all of the photos of the band in the Smile book have them in checked shirts, and the stage shot with the Boston DJ's at the link shows them in the striped shirts.

I'm really curious to hear thoughts on this!

I agree totally Phoenix about the elements notion of two themes, four songs... I thought that was a great post.

Thanks!


Do you think that the Intro to H&V, as is listed on the boxset would've kicked off the single?

No.  I think I remember hearing it was mislabeled on the box set and was always the intro to "Fire"/"The Elements".  Either way, that's what I think and I doubt BWPS having it in the same place is just a coincidence..


What is your final notion for the tracklisting?
 
My personal opinion, like I said, is pretty darn close to what Brian (and company) eventually gave us:

Our Prayer (unlisted), possibly with "Gee" although I prefer it without it
Heroes And Villains ("two part" version, listed as one track)
Do You Like Worms (with lyrics, pretty much as they appeared in 2004)
The Old Master Painter ("Barnyard medley", 2004 arrangement, finishing with "Barnshine")
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
Child Is Father Of The Man (with lyrics, at least similar to 2004 version)

Good Vibrations (probably NOT preceded by "You're Welcome", tho I put it there on my person version, as my one indulgence)
I'm In Great Shape (medley)
Vega-Tables (I never thought of transitioning the workshop sounds into those of the vegetables but I totally believe that was Brain's plan from at least some point in the 60's)
Wind Chimes (either here or after "GV", possibly merged in some way with "Holiday", which probably went the way of "Trombone Dixie" by the time the tracklist was sent to Capital)
The Elements (as I said, kicking of with the mislabeled "H&V Intro", possibly ending with the "Water Chant", so technically two themes, four songs, and intro, and an outro)
Surf's Up


I also think that there would have been very different single versions of the songs as compared to the album versions.

Because of the industry practice of the time, I'm not sure how many singles would have been lifted from the album, nor if they would have used different version.  (To be honest, that idea hadn't crossed my mind.)  More than anything, I just took the alternate versions as explored but ultimately discarded possibilities.


anyways, great post Phoenix...the thread has taken a major tangent...

Thanks again for the kind words and I do concur (about the tangent).

I think the answers to many of these question come down largely to personal hunches so, fwiw, here are mine:

Old Master Painter would have stayed its own track, a la the handwritten track list, with the addition of some type of fade. Either a version of the barnshine fade, although we know that Brian had cannibalized that for Heroes, although he did re-record the Barnshine Fade for Heroes - the one with Carl's doo-be-doos over the top), or another fade. Incidentally, has anyone edited the Banshine re-record onto the end of OMP/YAMS as it fits much better than the original barnshine imo?!

Child is father of the man - I think this would've been it's own track, independent of SU. I think the foreboding intro leading into Surf's Up was an entriely 04 creation. Incidentally I've always found that foreboding bridge section so compelling. To me it sounds like an expectant father waiting for his child to be born, and then of course you have the baby crying sounds in the chorus and verse. A fascinating song. I like Phoenix's idea of it closing Side 1 as a nice mirror to SU closing side 2 - never thought of that!

Good Vibrations - I strongly believe that at one point this was planned to follow Our Prayer, most likely as the lead track. It sounds far better coming out of OP than H&V does imo.

Look - I'm with those that suspect this may have been discarded. Shame though.

Ditto Holidays & He Gives Speeches.

The Elements - I'm not entirely sold on Da da being water. On one of the sessions you clearly hear them moving into another section after section 2, that doesn't sound dissimilar to CIFOTM. Imo, dada could well have been it's own independent track, maybe with a relationship to, or thematically similar to, CIFOTM. After all, the title suggests fatherhood (Love to Say Dada), and CIFOTM obviously deals with the cycle of life. Again just another hunch. All Day confuses things further - was it part of Heroes? I can't remember which was recorded first - All Day, or Dada? I Have a feeling it was the latter. Perhaps the melody of Dada/All Day was at one point water but then Brian decided to work it up into an independent track, just like Vegatables. Maybe All Day, was a proposed B-Side for H&V at some point? Who knows - it's obviously so difficult to unravel this stuff and I think Brian was changing his mind and cannibalizing songs very regularly.

I love Fire leading into I Wanna Be Around/Workshop and so my Elements consists largely of that.

Guitar Fool, I looked thru the Boston Globe and the Boston Herald-there was no BB show in Boston in Nov 1966.  I did however find in the Hartford Times that the BBs were in Hartford, CT at Bushnell on the night Badman had them listed in Boston and that is confirmed (Hartford Times-Nov 17 1966.  Also an interview from that day published in the Hartford Courant on Dec 3 1966). They were in Boston in May 66 (Boston College and MIT) but that Theremin is for Good Vibrations-so I think that photo you posted is from the April 1967 shows (Back Bay Theatre)-and yes they had that look still in Apr 67.  Didn't get rid of the striped shirts till Nov 67.  I think I am right-looking at the photo-there are only subtle changes from the way they looked in Nov 66-but Bruce's hair is slightly longer-as indeed it was in Apr 67.

Guitar Fool-By the way checkered shirts and striped shirts (two kinds-big stripes and pin stripes)-they wore em all in 66-67.  For example-German Magazine Bravo (Cover date Nov 21 1966) has photos of them in Germany in both stripes and checked shirts.  Striped shirts were more common-but when the others were in the wash-I guess they had to make due!

Ian scores again! 
from WRKO site: 
http://wrko.org/happenings/hap_beachboys.html

Saw 'em in all of their striped glory-Johnstown, Pa. 1967.

Awesome answers! Thank you so much for clearing up the dates and places, and bgas, thank you for posting the WRKO link. I was on that page, I check there regularly, I first saw the photo of the Boys on that site a few years ago, but never saw the link you posted with the photos. A big thank you.

Indulge me on an semi-off-topic break for a minute, please!  :)

I lived in Boston for a time. One place I lived for several years was a dorm room at 150 Massachusetts Avenue, in the Back Bay. The "Back Bay Theater" was across the street, near Symphony Hall, at I believe 209 Massachusetts Avenue. Just two years or so after the Beach Boys played there in April 1967 the Back Bay Theater was torn down, I think it was 1969.

The link to WRKO had this photo of the Back Bay Theater when the Beach Boys played in April 67:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/backbaytheater1967.jpg)



And I took this photo from my window in 1995, one of my last days at that address. I woke up to this every day:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/backbaymassave1995.jpg)

The large white apartment building complex is where the Back Bay Theater used to stand. If you notice to the right, there is a row of older style buildings and storefronts. Then the big white building which looks out of place, then Symphony Hall is on the far left on that same side of the street. In the older Theater photo you can see Symphony Hall in the distance as the street angles off to the left.

Many memories of that area, including seeing Brian Wilson perform one of his earliest "comeback" concerts in the 1990's at Symphony Hall. The photos and discussion triggered some nostalgia, so I had to dig out that old photo. That's called "progress", and it was popular in the late 60's and early 70's to tear down those old theaters and buildings to replace them with buildings like that apartment complex.

It was neat to catch a glimpse of what that street used to look like.

Cool-Wish I'd seen them then.  That was a stressful tour, however.  Carl was arrested in NYC and a whole nightmare began for him that lasted five years.  On top of that-by April 67 they had to really be sweating about the future of Smile, not to mention a little lawsuit with Capitol.

I agree with the songs of course - they are the track list on the back cover - but would change the order on side one:

Prayer
Do you Like Worms
Heroes and Villains
Cabinessence
Old Master Painter
Wonderful
Child is Father

It's fun to speculate how Brian would have finished the unfinished songs in 67, but 'intro to Heroes" is NOT a mislabelling, the session sheet is pretty clear that is what the piece is, despite David Leaf putting it in front of Fire in 1988 but it does sound good there.  I'm in Great Shape is a mystery because we don't know what would be included besides the "I'm in the great shape of the open country" fragment we have from the Heroes demo for humble harv miller.  But I believe I'm in Great Shape would have been the "Barnyard Suite" since the true Barnyard with animal noises was also excised from Heroes along with Great Shape and of course fits thematically as well as musically.

I realize speculation is the nature of the beast but I think we know with a reasonable degree of certainity much more about Smile than many of the posts in this thread show. Of course, there are some MAJOR mysteries and questions we'll never have answered (Elements, the 1/67 SU session to name but two) but, for example..

- I don't get the speculation re Child going into Wonderful or Child leading into Surf's Up. Every bit of evidence shows that Smile was going to be an album of 12 roughly 3 minute pop songs with no segues, link tracks, or movements with the possible exception of within "The Elements".

- Owing to the missing IIGS vocal session (rec 10/17) I don't think we have a clue what it was. For me this is the biggest mystery of all, just what in the hell was IIGS? I don't think "I Wanna Be Around" (rec. 11/29) has anything to do with IIGS. It doesn't make sense that work on a new basic track would be started 6 weeks after the vocal session. That and "I Wanna Be Around" sounds *nothing* like the IIGS demo on Endless Harmony or the short backing track attempts.

- No way Look or Holidays were going to make the album. Clearly work was abandoned on both very early in the sessions and neither were close to completion. I'd kill to hear that lost Look vocal overdub session though.

- Hasn't it been confirmed that the 2004 Child verse lyrics were in fact newly written?

Yes.

Maybe someday the original verse lyrics will surface on a long-lost tape or acetate or David Oppenheim's legendary 'Inside Pop' outtakes & audio.

Not that I don't believe this, but where was this confirmed?

I agree that the piece labeled H&V Intro is NOT the intro to Fire.  In addition to the fact that it is on the session sheet that way, it was released on the box set as H&V intro, AFTER David Leaf's apparently mistaken claim.

Also, it just doesn't make sense from a practical standpoint.  The Elements was to consist of four pieces. Fire by itself clocks in at 1:39.  If you were to add the :35 intro, that would make it 2:14--with three elements left to add!  So then you're faced with a situation in which The Elements is either a very long track, or a standard-length track that is completely dominated by Fire.  I don't think either of those possibilities are very likely, especially given the other evidence that the intro belongs to H&V.

Plus, listen to the whistles that open and close H&V intro--they're the same whistles as are periodically heard on H&V cantina.  To my ears, the intro was pretty clearly made for H&V.

Now maybe Brian thought at one point of making Fire a separate track, or simply replacing The Elements with Fire.  In that situation, I could see a credible argument that Brian might have moved the intro over, but I don't know of any evidence that Fire was ever thought of as a separate track.

It's interesting that no one is mentioning that I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night were labeled on the session sheets as belonging to I'mIn Great Shape.  I think it's a big mistake to simply dismiss that listing as an error, without any evidence that it was in fact erroneous.  Why couldn't the track consist, at least in part, of the "great shape" lyrics, followed by the tape explosion, I Wanna Be Around and the woodshop noises?  That order sounds to me like it works, and it was in that sequence on BWPS.  Without other evidence, it seems to me that is by far the most likely possibility.

As for the Barnyard Suite, I agree with the earlier poster that it was most likely the same as The Old Master Painter--meaning Barnyard, followed by The Old Master Painter, followed by You Are My Sunshine, followed by the cantina fade with YAMS overdubs.  Of course, Brian later used the cantina fade for H&V, so he may well have abandoned this track altogether, but I think the above sequence probably was used at one point in the process.

Not questioning, just curious: what is the evidence for barnyard going to old master painter?

I'm not sure there is any actual "evidence," unless you consider the placement of those tracks on BWPS to be evidence (and I don't).  When I said "most likely" and "probably," I may have been overstating things.  We do know that there was at one point to be a Barnyard Suite, and that a suite is four movements.  So we know it was to be Barnyard and three other pieces, but beyond that, it's really all supposition based on our ears.  Maybe Phoenix can weigh in.

Thank you for pointing this out. Intro to H&V was recorded after Fire (as we know it) was scrapped. It may have been a reworking of ideas from Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, but it came too late to be linked in any way to MOC. I think Intro to H&V was cut in January 1967? Maybe February? I'll have to check. MOC was abandoned by early December at the latest (see Jules Siegel's piece). It is another example of Smile fans like Leaf influencing BWPS.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". It is also interesting to note that there seem to be a handful of contemporary accounts of the Smile sessions were people seem to blur their descriptions of Barnyard and Woodshop together. Couple this with the evidence we have linking Barnyard to I'm In Great Shape (and the fact that the lyrics for the standard version of Old Master Painter speak of an old master artist who painted the "far away hills", "violets and the daffodills", and "the blue sky"), a hazy image starts to appear of some sort of Elements suite made up of many little parts. But musical sections were getting traded around so much, it is impossible to get a clear picture of any of this.

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.


I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

Whether it means anything or not to the bigger picture, I've always been fascinated with what Brian had the "Posse" chanting: apart from Fire which was already a piece of music, you could argue he chanted the other elements: water, air (if we think of air as breathing), and whatever the vegetables concept meant to him at that time.

Also the Intro piece as a possibility for air: I always thought it could be edited to some old hurricane or severe weather newsreel footage and suggest a destructive notion of air, closer to Brian's sonic images of fire as scary. Air can be scary or gentle, fire can be an inferno or a candle...hmm. :)

I appreciate your point that there's no other evidence besides Kaye's, but claiming to have played on sessions is one thing - you can understand her motivation behind that. But to make up a story about Fire and I Wanna Be Around  - well ok she may well be mistaken and if it was Vegetables + Surf's Up then by all means write it off, but Fire and IWBA sound so right together, in so many ways: What else would Brian follow the bummer that is Fire with? It's Smile remember - so obviously a bit of humour to lighten things up and reassure us that it was just a joke after all!! Also musically IWBA follows Fire better than any other track. We have the soft thud, thud, thud of the falling timbers gently slowing the tempo of Fire, ready for the soothing lounge music to follow.

Not to go off topic, but are you saying Carol didn't play on the Motown hits? She's certainly credited on Motown's Hitsville USA box set. During the mid-60s, Motown began recording certain artists and backing tracks in LA to accommodate busy touring schedules.  By the late 60s, Motown had started recording almost exclusively in Los Angeles rather than Detroit. Then around 1972, Motown moved to California and shut the Detroit studio down.

Just for fun, why don't you list the songs she's credited for on the box set...

I am saying exactly that, and I am not alone in this: no-one at Hitsville ever recalls seeing her there, her name isn't on the AFM sheets, and one track she claims credit for - "I Was Made To Love Her" - was watched from composition to shipping the singles by the composer, arranger & producer of same, Henry Cosby, who singed an affidavit stating that the bassist was James Jamerson. Her studio logs, which I gather are meticulously kept, make no mention of the tracks she claims. She admits she's never been to Detroit. Her fellow Crew-mates don't support her claims. Yes, MoTown recorded tracks in LA from the mid-sixties, but these were album filler, and not the hit versions. I could carry on, but this website - http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks (http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks) - does a far better job of exposing her groundless claims than i could ever dream of. Slightly more on topic, she also claims to have played guitar on "Surfin' USA": however the AFM sheet and the memory of David Marks say she didn't. For whatever reason, the woman is relating a falsehood.

Re: the Hitsville box, which one is she credited on - 1959-71 or 1972-1992 ? And which songs ?

The "rebuilding" comment, assuming it was made, could mean anything.  It could have been totally offhand, or simply a reference to the order in which things were being recorded.  There's no evidence of anyone saying that IWBA/Friday Night would follow Fire in the album itself.  Plus, how would hammering and sawing represent an element?  I just don't see how that makes sense.

And then there's the session sheet that labeled IWBA/Friday Night as part of I'm in Great Shape, not the Elements.

Giving her the benefit of the doubt, is it not likely that she is simply remembering one of the countless re-makes of these songs as done by other artists? Surely she IS on someone's version of Surfin USA and could easily confuse her many BB sessions with other, less memorable artists. Same with Motown, although that seems fishier...

Just to remind me; does the session sheet say IWBA/Friday Night/IIGS, or does it say IIGS/Friday Night?

As for what follows MOC, I've never had a problem with it being followed by the Water Chant. Water putting out the fire. The eeriness of the Chant matching the eeriness that sometimes follows disaster. With the Elements, though, there's just too much uncertainty to say anything in terms of order aside from that (at one point) Fire may have been part 1. Anderle even said in late '67 that none of them had any idea as to how the elements would tie together.

There was a cover of "SUSA" as early as mid-1963, which involved the Crew, which almost certainly featured Hal & Carol... thing is (as with the MoTown nonsense), the claim that she played on the Beach Boys hit has been up on her website for years, despite a lot of people pointing out she's wrong. She also claims to be on "Surf City" - again, AFM sheet says not. (A small aside - whenever you question her involvement in something, she waves the AFM sheets like a page of scripture... unless said documentation contradicts her, in which case it's wrong. Heads she wins, tails you lose). I have boundless admiration for what she did achieve - even if all she'd ever done was the bassline on the "Mission: Impossible" theme, she'd be worthy of praise - but for years she's been claiming the work of a fellow musician, with no evidence whatsoever to back it up aside from "I say so".  Here's something she never mentions on her site - back in 2000 or so she brought a suit to prove she'd played on those MoTown songs (in Chicago or Detroit). In pre-trial, the judge read her evidence, told her she didn't have a leg to stand on and threw the case out of court.

Well, OK. Then I nominate "All Day" for air...or "Air Dada"? Wait, perhaps that piano intermezzo during "Wind Chimes"..or maybe the H&V intro nevertheless? Man, SMiLE is so complicated...

What no one ever considers for Air, is the third section of Love To Say Dada. Check out Secret Smile:  I Love To Say Da Da (Part 2 Overdub). After the 2nd section the musicians move into a 3rd piano led piece that quickly breaks down. It sounds similar in style to the chorus of Child, or the fast sections of Look, and Holidays. Admittedly it does break down quickly. I'd pass it off as the musicians just messing around if the piece of music didn't sound so Smile. Maybe it's Brian on the piano and he's just messing around? It sounds like has an intent here though and can be heard saying "Let me go on, let's just ..." before he (I presume it's Brian on piano) launches into this piano part. Who knows, but I'm inclined to believe it's a next section, or coda, to Dada. As such, it could be that Dada at this point was considered it's own song, but there's nothing to say that if Dada was to be part of Elements at this point, that the 3rd section in question isn't Dada shifting into another of the elements - perhaps Air. It certainly fits Brian's description i.e. "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that".

It also sounds exactly like the end of the bridge before the final chorus in 'Good Vibrations' (in tone, not in actual instrumentation) - which made me realize how similar 'Love To Say Da Da' is to 'Good Vibrations' and thus similar to CIFOTM and others. What a ridiculously complex album this was!

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7251.0.html

That's a good thread.

One thing it doesn't list though is Hokey Pokey from Look. What's with that section? That whole melody, the one that also appears in GV sounds so familiar, any info on it? Any idea why he might have put Hokey Pokey in there with it?

I only have the 1959-1971 box so I couldn't comment on Volume 2. The liner notes themselves don't list specific tracks the musicians played on but rather, the musicians who contributed to specific eras of Motown's history. Carol is listed as one of the bass players for the last era the box set covers (mid-60s to early 70s).

The only specific hits mentioned as being completely recorded in LA are all The Jackson Five hits.

Sorry to hijack this thread.

though that section he launches into is identical to 'Child Is Father Of The Man (Piano Section Vocal Overdub)' from Secret Smile Disc 1, which does have vocals.

I think you just answered my question.  :)

I think you're talking about '12th street rag'.

Yeah, there's no "Hokey Pokey" in "Look", the vamp is from "12th Street Rag". Unless I'm misremembering, I believe "Look" was recorded prior to the final wordless vocal section in "Good Vibrations". Therefore, it's thought that Brian more-or-less abandoned "Look" after lifting the horn melody for use near the end of "Good Vibrations". Note that in BWPS, the final time the "Look" horn melody is used in "Song For Children", it's altered to more closely resemble the wordless vocals in GV.

Yes. And when Brian was questioned about that musical quote at the session, he said that he was going to pay publishing money to use that bit, but of course, on the 2004 version, he omitted that bit altogether.

Absolutely - that is the section that it most closely resembles. I find this bit of the Dada sessions fascinating as it hints at the following possibility: That Brian was thinking of having some variation of Child as a Coda to Dada - Something we know he did for Surf's Up. This isn't a totally ridiculous idea when you consider the title "Love To Say Dada" hints at a baby theme, which would tie it in with the subject matter of Child Is Father To The Man. This is why I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Dada is the water element.

Of course, it may be Brian just trying something out that happens to sound like Child, or maybe he as planning to have a section in Dada that sounds similar to Child or even to butcher that bit of Child to use in dada, or even that the section in question is Air that water is transitioning into. Who knows, but that section certainly raises a few questions about the form dada would have taken.

I never thought of the angle of  ILTSDD tied in with CIFOTM, but it makes sense, especially the 'baby, Child' theme that buddha said.
I never really thought it was water, either. I always got the impression that by that point, Brian wasn't thinking in terms of 'Elements' anymore. He was just laying down music to see what clicked with him.

By the time ILTSDD was recorded (in May '67), Derek Taylor had already issued a press release saying that Smile had been "scrapped."  So I think it's pretty safe to say that The Elements had been abandoned at that point, and that DaDa was something completely different.  I don't know that DaDa can even be considered a Smile recording.

Which is he reason I never understood why everyone said it was water. Just because part of it was later featured in a song about water doesn't make it an element. I blame Domenic Priore  :p

Yeah, Priore's influence lives on.  He made a number of very definitive statements about track composition, running order, etc. that were actually nothing more than incorrect theories.  But for anyone first reading about the details of Smile, it's impossible to know that he was actually just making up a lot of it.

DaDa is a really good example.  Priore couldn't bring up the Derek Taylor press release, because that would have conflicted with his story about Brian cancelling the album in late May after hearing Sgt Pepper's for the first time.  So he pronounced DaDa to be the water element, the final piece of the Smile puzzle, recorded just before the planned mixdown.  All bs, but he says it with such authority that it's hard not to believe him.