The Smiley Smile Message Board

I have been thinking about this for awhile...after the mid 1970s I don't think Carl thought much of his big brother, musically at least. Wasn't it Carl that stayed back in the studio after Brian went home to tidy up the 15 Big Ones stuff ? Carl was the "mix down producer" on Love You, even though he has been quoted as personally hating it. When Brian got his groove going on stage Carl was the one holding him back. This situation continued off and on up to the point where Carl stormed out of the mid 1990s Brian produced BB sessions. Granted, Carl was instrumental in calling in Dr Landy and then calling in the conservator, in effect saving Brian from himself twice.

Just looking back over the albums, the ones where Carl is more prominent Brian is less so, while the mostly Brian ones Carl keeps his distance...I doubt that Lay Down Burden was about Carl as much as Like A Brother was about Brian.

I've never heard that Carl hated Love You. I remember reading quite the opposite that he considered really reworking those songs--rather than just tweaking them a bit-- but that he finally decided it was great as it was.

Doesn't mean you aren't right. I have this theory that Brian Wilson has the type of talent that squashes other talents like a bug; meaning that other egos tend to take a back seat to Brian's muse; which, as a creative person, Carl might have bridled against.

Families are a strange thing at the best of times. Being in the fishbowl world that the Wilson brothers were in would have magnified all kinds of issues. I imagine Brian would have felt a bit squashed after POB came out

Carl was right to restrain Brian onstage during the 70's, cos of the unsurprising fact that Brian was showing signs of severe mental illness -mashing keys on the piano at random, playing bass with similar care and process, turning up in a bathrobe, etc. Duh.

As for 'storming out' of sessions etc, Carl had the right not to like music his brother writes. I've never heard he stormed out, just that he simply didn't want to do any more Paley tracks. Also, duh.

Carl basically produced Love You - what do you think a 'mixdown producer' means, anyway? - and is all over it, vocally and instrumentally. And If Carl wanted to tidy up incredibly sloppy Brian mixes for 15 Big Ones, the bands most important record (commercially speaking) since Smile, can you really blame him? He was a beach boy too, dammit. He was entitled to mix his own freakin' records, have a say in his own stage show, and choose which songs he played and sang on.

I've never been on the bloo, but i'm getting an idea.

I never considered going on that other mb. Funnily enough I agree that Carl had the right to his own opinion on the direction that the BB should have gone as BW had lost the plot. After all he quit in 1981 on principle, which is admirable, but just doing that created damage to the group.

I never considered going on that other mb. Funnily enough I agree that Carl had the right to his own opinion on the direction that the BB should have gone as BW had lost the plot. After all he quit in 1981 on principle, which is admirable, but just doing that created damage to the group.

Was Carl on any of the bonus cuts of Like A Brother that were re-released?

Yes... it was certainly Carl who held back that scintillating live performer Brian Wilson. He would have been so much better if it wasn't for Carl.  :lol :thud :ahh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1EPXBQV3yM

Brian Wilson's groove sure was goin' that night, and look -- Carl wasn't holding him back at all! If, that is, he could have managed to do so. Them hips are outta control! :lol

funny how if the Carl reworking/mix was released...there'd prolly be the Brian mix (the released mix) floatin around the unofficial release unit.  ;)

Ummm... Carl did substantially more than just "tweaking them a bit".

Ok, he did a lot.
But, to your knowledge did Carl ever diss Love You? I thought I remember him saying somewhere that the album was 'charming.'

After listening to the rough demo boots of love you, I was left feeling that the songs could have been MUCH better produced. 

Whenever I listen to the Love You demos, I always think of how amazing it would sound with Pet Sounds type production. Then I listen to the actual album and I really dig it the way it is - and I LOVE that Brian recently said publicly how awesome the album is.

Are the demo's the ones where Brian is sitting around the piano belting out the new songs?? Where you hear Mike get a little excited in a few spots? I may or may not have heard the Brian produced Love You album.. can someone fill me in please!

Yes, I am talking about the one where the band (Mike?) is listening to Brian belting out IBHN.  That raw material could have had better final production. Maybe it was the production sound of the era they were shooting for.  Certainly the raw material was very substantial and any number of approaches might have worked.   The Brian produced Love You?  Not sure I've heard any of that.  Perhaps someone from Ohio could address this?

I've never heard any of that either. Didn't know that it existed.
I've heard the demos.
Can someone at least describe it? the original unfinished version that Carl polished up--or more than polished up? Just so I don't incur the wrath of anyoneswhen I say something inaccurate due to the fact that I haven't heard every tape or mix in the vault?

I know what you mean about Love You having been better produced. I don't know. I think it's probably more accurate to say it could have been more commercially produced. It is off the deep end, and that is a big part of it's charm, in my opinion.

I love the songs and the melodies on Love You, but what makes it one of my favourite albums of all time, and one i play more than Pet Sounds or Smile, is the production and performances. So low key, so homemade. Charming is a great word to describe it.

A 'better' production might have made a more commercial album, but perhaps an album without its primary charms. The rolling, buzzing, squelching, organic sounds of those analogue synths are out of this world.

A few more backing vocals wouldn't have gone amiss, but i look at it as a Wilson Brothers album, with Mike and Al guest spots, rather than a full-fledged BBs album.

I agree, this is exactly what makes Love You such a perfectly special record despite its occasional shortcomings. It's Brian Wilson in full "Magic Transistor Radio" mode writing and producing both aching love songs and incredibly infectious little ditties about the universe, listening to Phil Spector, and basically about meeting girls. Let's face it, what more could you ask for? Most of the synth arrangements are every bit as breathtaking as anything the group had done before and personally I'm glad they didn't try to emulate their classic '65/'66 production style. Come to think of it, as a solo artist BW has now been doing just that for quite a few years and we all know it's just not the same. It wouldn't have been the same in 1977 either.

as you know i'm from ohio ( :) ) so check your pm....

Cough** Cough..Please sir

Earlier versions of the 15 Big Ones material show that Carl's production help may not have always been as good of thing as you'd think. Carl's mixes are cleaner, true, but they're not as exciting and some of the musical parts are lost.

Who did the early version of "Rock and Roll music" that was played on the radio after an interview with Carl ? That version rocks and seemed to be very cool (as far as you can tell)

I've never heard either the early 15 BO or the earlier R&R Music... can someone please tell me more?

Seriously, though, I didn't even know they circulated...I'm really out of the loop lately.

If someone could supply me with a personal message I'd be very thankful. :angel:

Perhaps maybe me as well?

not having it is pissing me off!!

The only thing worse than pissing you off is pissing me off! 

 ;D

"Lay Down Burden" was not written about Carl.  It was written about Brian's relationship with Marilyn.  When Carl died during the completion of Imagination, BW and camp decided to dedicate it to Carl when performing it in concert and interviews following the release of the album.

Also, on the subject of Like A Brother album:  There's a great/early version of "Run Don't Walk" that has Marilyn singing background vocals on it.

Regarding "Watching The Time Go By"…there are (at least) three distinct versions; the best of which is on Robert Lamm's solo album 'In My Head.'  It was Robert's version that was used on ESQ's Carl Wilson tribute CD, 'Under God.'

On the topic of how Carl felt about Brian, I think it's impossible for us to imagine how complex a situation is dealing with (a) a family member, (b) someone you know intimately well on many levels, and (c) a business partner whose behavior and decisions personally affect your financial well being AND enjoyment and pride in your work.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Carl loved his brother very much.  I also think it's fair to theorize (accurately I think) that there was a strain in their relationship from the '80s onward.  Carl didn't say much about it but Brian certainly did, in various interviews and such.

It's very possible that Carl, knowing the situation as intimately as he did, did some things that he felt were both for his own protection and for the greater good and for that of his brother, that may have alienated Brian and seemed questionable to us on the outside, but if we stood in Carl's shoes, were perfectly reasonable and came from a place of love.  Friends of Carl's have told me personally that the conservatorship battle was a horrible strain for him, and given the position it placed him in, one can easily understand why.

All the BBs had their flaws, but it's hard not to look at Carl and say that of all the members, he had the best grasp of the big picture....the art, the commerce, the optics and the politics.  It's easy to look at one angle of that and criticize, but Carl's judgment and vision, while by no means infallible, has probably stood the test of time better than the rest of the band's (at least after 1968 or so).

Great point.

In my mind Carl is the most interesting Beach Boy of all.  He carried the burden of holding the band and his family together.  When he stepped away (mentally in 1977 and 1978 and actually in 1981) the band's performances suffered greatly.  When he stepped away creatively (MIU, SIP and everything he didn't write in BB85) the product was horrible.  He had a strained relationship with his older brother for the better part of two decades where he was trying to balance the interests of his band, his brother and himself.  If he ever fell short I am convinced that it wasn't for lack of trying to do the right thing.

And yet, through it all he never aired dirty laundry in public.  The only public criticism of his partners was a general complaint about the band's complacence  as a contributing factor for his sabbatical and stating that "he felt sorry for the guys" regarding the Queen Mary concert.  Otherwise we do not know what he thought.  For example, there have been thousands of words written on the relationships of Mike and Brian; Mike and Dennis; Mike and Brian and yet little is known about Mike and Carl's relationship even though transference of Band leadership from Carl to Mike had to be a key dynamic in the band's history.

It can be argued that there were four main players to the drama that was the Beach Boys (Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and Murray if you want to make it five.  I exclude Al, David and Bruce because, while they lived through and witnessed  the drama, they were not critical parts of it.) and Carl was the only adult.

There is theory that stressful events/situations can kick off cancer - sort of like the final ingredient (combined with smoking, etc.).

With that in mind it just might be that the litigation over Landy and the associated heartache contributed to Carl's death.

Likewise, Bill, great points.  Can't fault any of them.

On the topic of how Carl felt about Brian, and his own role in the band, I always point to this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk0FGxSHSqA

Ignore Brian and watch Carl's reactions (some of which are priceless).  Love, amusement, apprehension, tight control, and an awareness of the need to always be ready to cover for his brother and present a game face on behalf of the band.  It's all right there.

Classic - you can almost hear Carl thinking how to field the questions, which ones he can let Brian handle and which are potential grenades.

Al was quoted in article several years back (might have been ESQ) speaking about the tremendous strain that battle put on Carl and he had a quote that said something like it nearly killed him.

I wish that somebody who knew Carl, or was related to him, would write a book about Carl. There are so many questions I have regarding Carl's personal life that are unanswered. Sadly, they will probably always be unanswered, because of how private of a person Carl was. I respect the man's privacy, but I'd really love to go back in time, and go inside his brain to see what made the guy tick.  ;D

Me too.  I have heard some amazing stories.  The common thread is a guy that had a very deep sense of humor and an endearing touch of real-world cynicism (and any performer that's been at it that long who isn't slightly cynical is not very bright, I have to say) that he only showed to really close friends....and a very tightly controlled guy in public...perhaps too controlled.  But I have yet to meet anybody who met him or knew him who did not LOVE the guy.  (This is also true, btw, of Dennis, who seems to have been encountered by half the people in Los Angeles in his short lifetime from the random stories people have told me)

It seems that, outside of Brian, Carl was the most repected member of the band wothin the music community.

Some people asked for the early RockAnd Roll Music-version. You can listen to it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYD2dKhZ-Tk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYD2dKhZ-Tk)

Judging from what I can actually make out (too bad the sound is so muddy) this is much better than what eventually ended up on 15 Big Ones.

It does sound more powerful etc...but given this is from a radio broadcast (which would  entail an additional stage of additional post-processing?) how indicative can this be of the mix itself?

The two additional elements I can actually make out, the vibraslap or cabasa ("rattlesnake" sound) leading into the chorus and the whistling (?) on the chorus, seem like over-the-top additions to an already full mix. As Sam_BFC mentioned, it's difficult to judge due to the heavy compression and poor quality of the recording. It did seem like the guitar was poking through more and there was a heavier bass sound which I think would have helped the released track.

There's an extra verse, and an additional guitar overdub (or it's brought up in the mix).

The singleversion thankfully had a heavier mix than the albumversion. I wonder if this version here still exists in the vaults and might see light of day sometime.....

Ha-ha, I was trying to listen so closely to the mix that I didn't even realize the extra verse at the end!

Yes, I prefer the single mix of this track as well.

That version of "Rock and Roll Music" is pretty nearly true to its name. I don't know why -- if it was Brian -- or who -- if it wasn't -- decided to release the 15 Big Ones we now have when it could have been so much better based at least on that track and "Sea Cruise"... It could've cooked!