The Smiley Smile Message Board

Specifically I am thinking of the mid 60s. I am trying to figure out exactly why Brian chose to go a different direction. The Today album is full of lyrics by Mike that are every bit as good as Pet Sounds IMO. Good Vibrations and Wild Honey were even better. I know that he took a more commercial approach for SDSN. While I agree that Van Dyke was a much more creative lyrisict, especially with Surfs Up and Wonderful. Heroes and Villains, meh. Mike could've easily done Wind Chimes or Vegatables.

What I am saying is, what if Brian chose to continue using Mike for Pet Sounds and Smile as the main lyricist. I believe that there would've been more support from the guys (Mike especially) for those projects and the words would have been a bit more commercial. At the same time, Mike was capable to be more creative and poetic as he showed with GV and the WH lp.

Thoughts...

I'm goin' guess that Mike would have written lyrics about what Brian was interested in: health, food, humor, God, meditation, childhood, etc.. The Parks' Americana wouldn't have made an appearance [if it was Parks] except maybe in a jokey SGB sort of way. That's my speculation. I wouldn't doubt he would have stepped up to the challenge the way he had in the examples given, his PS lyrics are just as spot on as Ashers, and GV hit it out of the park.

I think you have to think in terms of where peoples' instincts lie.  Mike might dabble at this or that serious lyric or psychedelic thing, but it isn't really where his heart is, and it would always sound that way.  I've heard that Brian hated the "I'm picking up good vibrations/she's giving me excitations" line and if you take it in isolation, you really can't blame him.  It's a horrible line, it just works.  But it doesn't work because Mike has an affinity for that kind of a lyric, they just made it work.

Brian picked guys that he thought were in tune, naturally, with where he wanted to go...they wouldn't have to try to put themselves in a different headspace.  And actually his instincts were pretty good...Tony Asher wasn't a lyric writer per se but he did a bang up job on PET SOUNDS, and also consider another very underrated (in my opinion possibly the best lyricist the Beach Boys ever had) non-professional lyricist:  Roger Christian.

I think, btw, this is why so many of Mike's post '60s lyrics are so terrible.  He tries very hard to stay current without really understanding where he fits in, so it always sounds like he's trying to write something that he thinks people want him to write, rather just writing something that naturally resonates.  When he actually chills out and writes about something he cares about and doesn't worry about anybody else (e.g. "Cool Head Warm Heart") he can still come up with something OK, because it doesn't sound contrived.  But he has very poor judgment about what makes for good poetry.  (Al Jardine is a LOT better at this...he probably has the grasp of prose of any of the original members, though he often muffed it in execution...but he's come up with some extremely evocative lines)

Writing a great lyric is VERY difficult.  Much more than music, it's about making the right aesthetic choices and knowing what's a bad rhyme.  That takes an understanding of both the form and of your audience.  Writing a terrible lyric is the easiest thing in the world to do.

Not much a fan of the final "Good Vibrations" lyric. Rather, the, "When I look in her eyes she goes with me to a blossom world," and, "I love the colourful clothes she wears," lines irk the hell out of me. Feels so forced and was dated a year after it was written. But then the rest of it's pretty nice.

Otherwise, I agree - Mike's lyrics around this time were pretty noice. I'd guess, more than anything, it was just Brian wanting to try something new.

I hear the train a-comin'
Up around the bend
And I ain't see the sunshine
In I don't know when
I'm stuck in Folsom Prison
and time keeps draggin' on
And that train keeps a movin'
On down to San Antone.

Now THAT's a great lyric.  There's nothing pretentious about it.  Any idiot can understand the story being told...and yet, no cliches, no direct description like "I feel like __________", the story is told in a series of images, and puts you in the place of the singer.

Pure genius.  Textbook 101 of a great lyric.  And it comes from knowing what works, and knowing how to communicate to your audience.  When Mike Love WAS his audience, he was able to do this, but not once times changed.

Mike's popular music lyrics were popular. When his lyrics weren't popular Brian's music wasn't either. Quality is subjective I suppose.

Who knows what Brian was thinking by trying other lyricists. Maybe it was just variety,  he replaced Usher, Christian, Asher, Parks.... he kept coming back to Mike, which he didn't the others. Maybe with Mike it was simply because Brian wasn't touring and he and Mike weren't hanging like they had.

Personally, I really like that line. It reminds me of the lyrics in 'Lucy in the Sky w/ Diamonds'. However, I do find the "colorful clothes" line rather adolescent.

Wasn't a big reason why Brian used Parks/Asher because Mike was touring with the Beach Boys?

Brian also wanted to make music "people would pray to"....Mike is a phenomenal pop lyricist...but commercial pop is far different than the spiritual art Brian wanted to record.

When you are collaborating with someone it is great to be able to talk with them for an unlimited amount of time - and with Mike gone (and Mike not being too supportive of Brian's drug habits) I can't imagine Brian having the best collaborative relationship with him - and thus not getting his true vision down.

As you say: The band would have been FAR better off with Mike and Brian collaborating, but then again, we would not get songs like 'Surf's Up' or 'Wonderful'.

Had Mike collaborated with Brian, I bet the Americana section would be far less dark than Parks made it. As incredible as it is, that "over and over the cornfields" section in 'Cabin Essence' is fairly creepy. Then again had Mike written the lyrics to 'Cabin Essence' it would probably sound more like 'Amusement Parks USA' than a old-time western song  ;D

Would Mike have even been interested in writing lyrics for something like "Cabinessence"? That's part of it, too.

I'm trying to imagine what that would be like

"over and over the fast cars uncover the surfboard"

Muscle car driver, just see what you've done done
To the hair that was on Mike Love's beautiful head

-amazing. artfully done.

*applause* I seriously laughed out loud.

I don't think it would've been as bad as Amusement Parks lyrics. Who knows? Maybe Brian did try to work with Mike. But Mike was inclined to Summer Days kind of lyrics and wouldn't consistantly do what Brian wanted. Maybe for one song like GV but not a whole album. Just a thought.

Mike's written enough great lyrics to stand up with the best of them. I mean, if you put them all together, the lyrics he wrote from 1961-1980, I'd say the good FAR outweighs the bad. And even the bad is, of course, subjective.
I mean, you can't hold up Tony Asher as a genius based upon something like Wouldn't It Be Nice and then write off something Mike like Kiss Me Baby or Please Let Me Wonder as "Oh, it was probably mainly Brian" ...  I mean, you can, but it would reek of personal issues rather than sense.

I think if Mike was responsible for something like Johnny Carson or I Wanna Pick You Up, they'd be held up as two of the prime examples of how awful he is. But those are Brian lyrics, therefore innocent and charming. Then again, I know many many people who adore those lyrics, and why? Because they simply work. And if they work, can't they be accused of being great? So, how come Mike can't get this same respect?

"Because he's Mike" just doesn't cut it.

Adam's post below really hit the nail on the head for me, but I'll put in my own two cents anyways.

Mike certainly had his share of fine moments as a lyricist, especially in the early days before Pet Sounds.  "Warmth of the Sun" is proof enough that he could write great lyrics beyond the cars/surf/girls themes that he's known for, and his work on Today! complimented Brian's rapidly growing music perfectly. 

As great as he was at times, however, I don't think that he would have improved or changed Pet Sounds or Smile for the better.  In the case of Pet Sounds, Tony Asher's presence allowed Brian to open up about his feelings and insecurities.  Their conversations led to a very organic songwriting process, which led to very "real" songs about what they were feeling as guys in their early 20's.  Even aside from the fact that Mike was on the road, I can't imagine Mike being willing to help Brian essentially write a very "self-centered" album (which is what Mike considered it to be anyways).  The lyrics that Tony wrote, in and of themselves, might not be too far off from what Mike was capable of, but he played a huge role in allowing Brian to really put his emotions out there on record.

As for Smile, perhaps Mike could have written a few of the more humorous tracks, but I can't imagine a Smile album without "Surf's Up," "Wonderful," "Cabinessence," etc.  As good as Mike could be, there's no way he could touch lyrics like those.  Van Dyke pushed Brian musically, in a way that he hadn't really been pushed before.  With Mike, Brian was the one pushing him to up his game, forcing Mike to keep up lyrically with Brian's growing musical sophistication.  That's not a knock on Mike; through Summer Days he kept up pretty damn well (especially on the Today album).  Smile is the one album, however, that I think was just plain beyond Mike.  Even if Mike as lyricist would have meant that Smile would have been released, I wouldn't trade Van Dyke's lyrics for anyone else's.

In both cases, Brian's decision to use different lyricists, while certainly being more convenient than writing with Mike, also allowed him to further explore his creativity.  He wasn't afraid to try new things, or write about unfamiliar (or highly personal) topics.  Brian had always been this way, even in the beginning when he wrote with guys like Gary Usher or Roger Christian.  Each of his collaborators led him to try new things and grow as an artist.  We all know that as good a songwriting partner as Mike was to Brian, he wasn't exactly encouraging him to try new things musically.  Instead of Pet Sounds or Smile, I think Mike would have been happy if Brian had stayed in the Summer Days vein for the next few years, instead of writing "ego" albums or teenage symphonies to God.  Maybe this approach would have sold them more records, but I'd rather have those albums as they are any day of the week.

There should be a hateful name for the people who prize context over content like this.

You're certainly free to coin one!

I wouldn't say the term Brianista is hateful, nor should it be, nor is it's intent, so I shouldn't compare!

But nothing seems to inspire more white hot hate than when some poor fool tries defending Mike.

And aren't context/content really soul mates (or at least a couple)  in any art form?

Having said all the above, however, I DO understand the frustration when someone does prize context over content, and that was not what I was doing or suggesting anyone do. Prizing context over content is the main reason so much "rock" writing and criticism annoys me, especially in regards to the 60's!

I think I should be clear that I appreciate (and honestly love) most of Mike's lyrics FOR their content as well as whatever the hell the context is (ironic that CONTEXT is usually the thing used when slamming Mike's lyrics) .....

But I may be missing something. I'll leave it to the real fans to correct me.

Van Dyke said Brian was embarrassed by the "carburetor and boy + girl" lyrics that Mike had written and welcomed Van's esoteric imagery. Trouble is, that statement isn't true. Brian was NOT embarrassed by those Mike Love lyrics. One of Brian's favorite BB songs is Do It Again, which is FULL of Mike's "commercial" hooks. And Mike wrote the new lyrics for Vibes on the drive into Columbia for the lead vocal session, dictating it to Suzanne, his then wife. And it sounds rushed. But they are also pretty damn good. Mike didn't even worry about rhyming the couplet in the second verse.  I like Mike's lyrics (much better than Tony's). My two favorite BB tracks are Heroes and Villains and Do It Again.  That is two ends of the spectrum, but, that is why I like them.  And I think that these two could have lived together in the BB world. But Mike made such a BIG deal about not f’ing with the formula that Brian tuned him out. Conversely, the "new guys" were REALLY pushing Brian to be the NEW psychedelic hippie poet. And really NEITHER was Brian's true heart. That was Pet Sounds / the 2nd side of TODAY. I think Brian was trying to advance the group with SMILE. But I also believe he really didn't know WHERE to go. SMILE was just one way to go. He would have tried others.

I think that the direction he liked going after Smile was Smiley/Friends. Unfortunately it didn't sell.

Sorry, it's just that one time I heard somebody say that if Taylor Swift had released Still Alive from Portal as her song, people would hate it for being a Taylor Swift song even though everybody loves the song in its current state. So I have a short fuse for that kind of stuff.

Yikes! That's a prime example and unfortunately is probably true (though there are plenty of us who know a good song when we hear it no matter who the performer/genre is) ... but us being Beach Boys fans are probably more all-around forgiving.

This reminds me of back in the day when my friend's parents (Hendrix heads mainly) would tell me "Ah, if you were into The Beach Boys in the late 60's it was like being into New Kids On The Block today!" and I'd always say "Hell, if New Kids On The Block had songs as good as The Beach Boys, I'd LOVE them!

Nothing gets my back up more than when someone implies that the Beach Boys were just a sixties version of ... (insert boyband/Disney jerkoff group here).

The Beach Boys wrote there own songs, played their instruments (except Mike) and they didn't dance. The Jackson 5 was a lot more like the boy bands of recent years. I hate it when people compare the Beach Boys to them. Much more like REM, who made some of their best albums after Automatic for the People, but they weren't big sellers. Maybe even Radiohead, who is mainly known for their albums up to Ok Computer. I think their best was after that.

At that point, I explain in simple and quick terms. If they're still spouting the same bullshit afterwards, they're not to be taken too seriously.

True. You can lead a jackass to water but you can't make it drink.  ;D

Hey!  Mike played a pretty mean SAX!!  And he did some nice dance steps too.

Mike was also a hipster bearded asshole before there was such a thing!  :p

I think the best way to view Mike is as just ONE of Brian's many great collaborators. I think it's futile trying to prove he's the best of the bunch. Too many people simply hate the guy when no one knows Tony Asher or Gary Usher from the wall.

And if Mike's the king of the "fun and sun" aspect of The Beach Boys: well, there's nothing wrong with that. It's a key part of what makes The Beach Boys THE BEACH BOYS and it created a lot of the momentum the group needed to achieve the clout necessary for Brian to stretch out.

Mike is also unique amongst Brian's collaborators in that he was IN THE FREAKING BAND! He got to sing many of the great lyrics he wrote, and was the band's front man and informed quite a bit of their identity.

But Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Roger Christian, Van Dyke Parks, Jack Reilly (yes) were all great and had unique strengths that Mike perhaps did not. Though, in Mike's defense, he was able to write many different types of lyrics: car songs, surf songs, love song, melodrama, mellow-good-vibe stuff, and the occasional weird bit. But that might just be because he was in the band and writing much longer than the other guys.

I think this quote was true around 65-67. At that time, Brian wanted to be a hip intellectual, and with that being his goal, he naturally would've been embarrassed when songs like "409" came up. However, as we can see by the end of the SMiLE, this period didn't work out. For one reason or another, Brian either stopped talking to his hip new friends or they stopped talking to him. The end result is that Brian abandoned those aspirations. Some time after he did that, he probably reevaluated the earlier songs and saw their positive aspects again. People's mind change.

Also, I think the reason Brian preferred writing with Van Dyke over Mike was simple: Van Dyke had taken acid, and would take uppers and smoke marijuana with Brian. Brian wanted people in his "head space" more than anything. After all, look at how he coerced the BBs into taking a ton of drugs when he finally worked closely with them again for Smiley Smile.

Van Dyke also provided the intelligent vibe that Brian wanted. While Mike can be very clever, he never comes off as a genius. Just a clever, hardworking guy.

The reason he had Mike write the lyrics for "Good Vibrations" was because Brian knew that Asher couldn't write lyrics that were commercial enough to take the song to #1. As we know, the perception at the time was the Pet Sounds had bombed. Brian's ultimate goal was to revolutionize the music industry, and to do that he need commercial success. 

And Mike wasn't even Brian's first choice as Asher's replacement for "Good Vibrations". Brian wanted Van Dyke to do it, but Van Dyke refused, probably because he worried that his lyrics wouldn't be right for the song's mood.

I want to say Van Dyke addressed this at one point, saying the lyric had already had work on it and he didn't feel it was his place to intrude. I don't know if he's talking about Tony's lyrics or Mike's lyric, though.

Yeah, since Carlin's book it seems to be very much up in the air. If VDP was indeed asked first thing in early Summer '66, it was Asher's lyrics that were the embarassment Brian wanted replaced since by all accounts Mike's lyrics couldn't have been written until late September '66.

I don't doubt who thought who was comfortable with what personal behavior had something to do with Brian mixing it up and having a lyricist's revolving door, I'm still leaning toward just plain ol' variety. Still the operative thing is once the others were out the revolving door they were out where as Mike stayed the go-to.

Well, Van Dyke was in the fold early enough for him to claim that he was one of the people that suggested putting cellos on the chorus of "Good Vibrations".

'I don't know where, but she send me there". Now THAT is a GREAT lyric! I don't know if Mike wrote it, but he sings it like he did.  :) It's  probably the most psychadelic Mike ever got.  ;D

"She goes with me to a blossom world", the next summer we were all encouraged to go to San Francisco with flowers in our hair. Coincidence.....?.........

Actually, the Lovester danced! Watching him dance make me want to simultaneously  :woot and  :thud !!
And how dare you compare Radiohead to the BBs!  :police: :lol :lol Unlike the BBs, where their post-PS stuff was some of the best music of their career, RH got got boring...only half of each of their first 3 albums is worth listening to, anyway. Nothing more than a Brit-pop band who started taking themselves too seriously and have no sense of joy or fun in their music. Even the BBs at their most depressed (Til I Die, Tree) sang with passion...Yorke does nothing but wallow in his own misery...and his Idioteque dance and head bobbing have nothing on Love's Monster Mash, chicken dance, and various other cheesy and embarrassing yet somehow awesome moves. Wild Honey, IMHO, is a much more satisfying listen than RH's entire back catalog combined. That said, I do like RH's cover of Rhinestone Cowboy. Rant over...I think I went off topic a little.

I always had a few doubts about this specific claim from Van Dyke, but I don't have the facts and dates in front of me to back it up. Then again, I also think he had more of a hand in creating some of Smile's signature arrangements in 1966 then he has ever taken or received credit for, but that's just a personal opinion.

Have you even heard Kid A or Amnesiac? Those are their best albums IMO. REM"s best album is Up IMO.

 
I didn't realise that was a 'thing'!  :lol

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7334/beachboys7.jpg)

This guy would not look out-of-place on any given college campus in America.

I dunno. Look up "Bearded Hipster Butthole" in Google pics and see what you get  :lol

I just might be that guy. Although, I think my personality is much closer to Carl's then Mike.

Yes I have...Half the songs on each album are somewhat decent, half are complete merda, all are coma inducing, even the fast ones. Maybe it's just me...but I never really got all the hype...I once owned OK Computer, but I was always skipping over most of the tracks...No Surprises and Electioneering were the only ones that did anything for me. Honestly, I prefer Oasis and Coldplay, as bad as that sounds.