The Smiley Smile Message Board

From a new book on the California music industry. Any truth to this Jon?


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/10/14/DD5D1FP9H6.DTL

gee, I wonder WHO punched him in the Larnyx?! Who could it be?

Selvin has written some really good things in his career...his Rick Nelson book is definitive, as are some of his writings on the '60's SF scene...but IMO this isn't good journalism. To begin any piece about Dennis by saying he was " the ignored Beach Boy and snubbed by fans" is laughable. Anyone with decent knowledge about the Beach Boys history should know that if nothing else Dennis commanded attention, and especially from the fans, with whom (from '63 to '78) he was clearly the Beach Boy who received the most attention and screams, and fan mail, and women throwing themselves at him. So, this guy is a little off base. Also saying his songs were few and far between...I guess if that's the case then Carl, Al and Bruce's songs were practically invisible. There's an attempt to paint a sensational, and dark, picture of dysfunctional Dennis here...which is fine if you get the nuance right. IMO Selvin has no clue what Dennis was about and what his standing and impact were. Just watch Billy Hinsche's '74 tour documentary and then tell me who had the "power" in the BB's political structure...Al?...Mike? You gotta be kidding. Once Brian was in shut down mode...the power was squarely held by Carl (and Dennis was his closest ally) until 15BO era when Brian threw his leverage to Mike by default. After that it was a free for all with Dennis going off the rails. Maybe the bottom line of this piece is okay...but the context is really skewed...which calls the credibility of the whole thing into question. Did he really say Dennis lacked the political clout of Al Jardine? Whoa...that's a good one.

See, you have to understand, Al has "friends in low places"...   ;D

He has more mob ties than Sinatra? Wouldn't surprise me.

"Being a Beach Boy didn't make Dennis Wilson happy". That is probably the stupidest thing I have ever read. That group was everything to him. He LOVED going out there and seeing the crowd go nuts. Without The Beach Boys, I believe that Dennis probably would have died years earlier than he did.

It is partly true. As much as Dennis loved being a Beach boy, if he had to resort to taking all those drugs he obviously felt that something was missing in his life and within himself - a hole that 'being a Beach Boy' couldn't fill.

The notion of Dennis still being a virgin at 15 is something I'm trying to wrap my head around.  ???

He was misquoted; I think he meant 5.

 :lol

Oh to know just half of what Dennis really knew what was going on in the Family. The stuff he could of told would probably have made your nose bleed.

Hmmm... I tend to doubt that. Dennis' main interest in The Family was distinctly visceral, with music coming second. I doubt he knew about the more murderous aspects. I know he said he knew why Charlie did what he did, but that was a few good years after the event.

Definately. He could of told a lot. And you'd lose your septum, literally.

There was some kinky stuff going on at Spahn Range that would have made Ron Jeremy blush. Frankly Dennis was lucky his dick didn't turn green and drop off.

You mean, it would have seperated from his body?  :o

I think Selvin is gullible and bought into some of Dennis' obvious BS. The 15 thing for sure. When we were doing the Dennis doc. last year we had a couple of guys who grew up with Dennis walking the old neighborhood with us, and unprompted, every once in a while, one of them would stop and point, "that used to be Jenny's house, she was real cute...Dennis took her virginity." Then we'd walk around the corner..."That was Betsy's house...she had a great body...Dennis crawled in the window one night and had sex with her...her dad chased him down the street with a hammer." And it continued..."That was Dee Dee's house...she had long black hair and was really pretty, she was a senior and a virgin...Dennis got her to sleep with him when he was a freshman." There must have been seven or eight of these stories in a three block square area. Can you imagine that same guy being on the road and not getting any? Please.

Obviously Jon he would have got the pick from Mike's leftovers.........

Wot's the chance of getting all these quotes into a revised edition of your book? maybe find pics of Jenny, betsy , Dee Dee and the others and get their quotes on what happened? 

As much as we all idolise Dennis, I lost a bit of repsect for him when I read that he'd done Patricia Krenwinkle, second only to Mary Brumner in the Family 'minger' stakes.

The thing about the Manson era is that it all became so magnified and sensational AFTER what occurred in summer 1969. For years the press absolutely fed on it which compounded the salacious nature of the core story. But in truth the family was just one odd microcosm in a massive flurry of counter culture behavior. Dennis knew a lot about them of course, but they weren't the giant cultural demons that we have been conditioned to think of them as in the aftermath. they were just one a thousand crazy things happening in L.A. And everybody knew Charlie, not just Dennis. Gregg Jakobson was right in the middle of it all, i talk to him frequently about it, and he's very matter of fact about Charlie and the family...they were troubled, dangerous, but not exactly pioneers in the type of behavior they were exhibiting. They were a part of a larger scene, they weren't the scene...they were on the fringe. They were grifters, Charlie had a prison edge, he took advantage of the chaos of 1968. But to say "Dennis knew so much"...well yeah, he lived with them, but he also bailed on them when the vibes became bad...just like any of us do when some creepy element enters our life. Sometimes it takes awhile for the creepiness to become evident, especially when there's a good amount of fun mixed in. The only thing that really separates the family from hundreds of other freaks who permeated L.A. is one stupid cowardly act. Its like a tantrum...one step beyond. And for some reason our culture glorifies it and endlessly obsesses on it. It all made Dennis very sad and probably was one reason he preferred to stay numb. But when he mentioned to the odd person that he knew "secrets"...well of course, but its not that Charlie was an alien, or a CIA operative. Its more about drug deals, and other notable people who are scrubbed from the story. Typical L.A.ish show biz secrets. It will all come out slowly...but none of it really matters. Charlie was bad news, Dennis figured that out. Other bad stuff happened after that.

I think the reason it is still obsessed over 40 years later is there are just too many loose ends to the case. That's what facinates me. I've read too many things to believe that the Tate and Biancia house's were chosen at random.

But isn't this just what Jon is driving at? Such mass media crazes that go on for 40 years get a dynamic all of their own. For each claim there is a counterclaim. Everyone wants a share of fame or notoriety.

Compare it to 9/11. Many are convinced that it was an inside job. There are about a million engineers that say it was what we all believe it was, and another million that say that it could never have been done with 2 planes alone.

A dynamic of its own creates all those loose ends. Only common sense and skepticism can counteract that.

And: if George Dubya and his troupe would be behind 9/11, then they certainly would have been able to install some fake WMD's in Iraq, to validate the invasion there, wouldn't you think?

Add to that the gruesome nature of the murders, the scrawled messages, the lifestyles of the perps...it all makes for a fascinating story.

I've always wondered to what extent fear of Charlie and/or "the family" played a role in Dennis' life, not just in the months after the murders, but in the following years.  If it'd been me, knowing there were still Manson family types at large, I think I'd have been double-checking door locks and windows for a very long time afterwards. 

There's definitely people who know way more about this subject than I do who would agree with you that none of it was random. It was payback for some type of burn. There's a thousand stories in the naked city...and this is just one of them.

I don't think for a second 9/11 was an inside job. However the US Government knew exactly how to turn such a horrific tragedy to their advantage.
            Back to Manson - The worst aspect of the ongoing media saga is that it must be impossible for the families of the victims to come to any form of closure. The past is always being dredged up again and again. As much as I dislike Debra Tate, I can't begin to imagine what she has gone through. I'm not guilt free, I've bought the books and the documentaries and the movies on all this.
            As Susan Atkins once wrote "For most, the Manson murders is a fascinating case that they can look into for an hour or so and then go back to their lives. For the people involved, both victims and killers it's something that's there with them everyday of their lives."

The Tate house certainly wasn't: Charlie knew who lived there, knew it wasn't Melcher any more, knew who else was very likely to be there. He knew who he was going after and he got them.

I have a hard time believing Melcher's house was selected at random. Of all the houses in L.A. he could have chosen, and which were much closer to the Spahn ranch, why did he single out Cielo Drive? Just because Manson was up there more than once and "knew" the neighborhood? Manson wasn't even WITH Watson, Krenwinkle, and Atkins when they went up to Melcher's house. They knew where to go.

The Labianca's house may have been random, but I don't think the Tate house was.

Hadn't they "creepy crawled" the LaBianca house once before?  Seems like I read that somewhere.

Perhaps the LaBianca mansion was expressly 'done' to distract from the fact that the chief goal was the Tate one? Killing a middle-aged couple could make for a smokescreen.

(says someone totally addicted to Inspector Morse, Columbo, Frost, Dalziel & Pascoe, Prime Suspect, Silent Witness, and the rest)

Charlie apparently screamed to Mr. LaBiancia after bounding him "I want that little black book". He was targeted for a reason. This was that brief window in time when Hippies, drug dealers, Satanist Cults, badass biker groups and Hollywood types mingled freely with each other - a bad mix - something had to give.

Doubt it - Charlie and the others cruised the neighbourhood for a while before choosing the La Biancas place. Possibly he chose it because he'd been to a party next door over a year previously. Oddly, if Charlie had targeted the place and gone straight there, he'd have found the house empty - the La Biancas had been out of town and only got back to LA at about one in the morning. The 'black book' story is part of a discredited theory that the mob hired The Family for two hits, based on the fact that Manson knew Mafia members during his various spells in jail.

AGD, I forget where I read about the black book. As you state the fact that they went cruising for victims beforehand is at odds with this theory. However I never completely ruled it out as a possibility for a number of reasons. The car was very full on that second night. When they finally reached the LaBianca residence, Charlie split the group in two and went with the others seeking another target. Maybe he'd always had the LaBianca's in mind but was looking for another house beforehand for the second group to attack? Remember that if he specifally wanted certain people in the Tate house dead, he also wanted other households on that street attacked that night and blew his top when he found out they hadn't. Could it be he had a set target for both nights and just wanted other homes slaughtered to divert attention from a possible link between the two? All just shots in the dark I know!
I have heard some rather far fetched reasons for the slayings but as has been previously stated for every whispering there is a contradiction. Even the killers all seem to have a different reason for why it went down. As to WHY the Tate house was the target, I have read Linda Kasabian had drug connections to people at the house that night. Also, I admit this is pure speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if that creepy little bastard Polanski knows more than he let on. Only one guy knows for sure and he's not talking. 40 years later and Charlie's still pulling the strings.

.

For all of you outside the Bay Area unfamiliar with Selvin's work, I can tell you aside of the G.D. (he's a huuuuuge fan) basically everyone else has been liberally skewered in his column.

He's an angry old man from the sixties who can't disappear soon enough for most Chronicle readers, and fans of music in general.

On March 23, 1969, Manson entered, uninvited, upon 10050 Cielo Drive, Los Angeles, which he had known as the residence of Terry Melcher.This was Rudi Altobelli's property, where Melcher was no longer the tenant; as of that February, the tenants were Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski.

Manson was met by Shahrokh Hatami, a photographer and Tate friend, who was there to photograph Tate in advance of her departure for Rome the next day. Having seen Manson through a window as Manson approached the main house, Hatami had gone onto the front porch to ask him what he wanted. When Manson told Hatami he was looking for someone whose name Hatami did not recognize, Hatami informed him the place was the Polanski residence. Hatami advised him to try "the back alley," by which he meant the path to the guest house, beyond the main house.

Concerned over the stranger on the property, Hatami was now down on the front walk, to confront Manson. When Tate appeared behind Hatami, in the house's front door, and asked who was calling, Hatami said a man was looking for someone. Hatami and Tate maintained their positions while Manson, without a word, went back to the guest house, returned a minute or two later, and left.

That evening, Manson returned to the property and again went back to the guest house, where, presuming to enter the enclosed porch, he spoke with Rudi Altobelli, who was just coming out of the shower. Although Manson asked for Melcher, Altobelli felt Manson had





come looking for him, as is consistent with prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi's later discovery that Manson had apparently been to the place on earlier occasions since Melcher's departure from it.

Speaking through the inner screen door, Altobelli told Manson that Melcher had moved to Malibu; he lied that he did not know Melcher's new address. In response to a question from Manson, Altobelli said he himself was in the entertainment business, although, having met Manson the previous year, at Dennis Wilson's home, he was sure Manson already knew that. At Wilson's, Altobelli had complimented Manson lukewarmly on some of his musical recordings that Wilson had been playing.

When Altobelli informed Manson he was going out of the country the next day, Manson said he'd like to speak with him upon his return; Altobelli lied that he would be gone for more than a year. In response to a direct question from Altobelli, Manson explained that he had been directed to the guest house by the persons in the main house; Altobelli expressed the wish that Manson not disturb his tenants.

Manson left. As Altobelli flew with Sharon Tate to Rome the next day, Tate asked him whether "that creepy-looking guy" had gone back to the guest house the day before.....

Frykowski?

If I had to lay money on any of them it would be Jay Sebring. Rumour has it he went a little too overboard with a whip on some of Manson's girls at an orgy. Still, it could have been any of the four. Rumours of Satanic activities, kinky sex videotapes and drug selling have all been levelled at them (of course with practically zero hard evidence). For conspiracy theories Ed Saunders "The Family" can't be beat, even if the text is outright juvenile at times.

If Manson had been in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan at the right time, none of this would have mattered. He could have killed millions if it was the right people.

Shooting a guy before he shoots you in a warzone is very different from invading someone's house and stabbing them.

Shut up, would you?

It's true. Imagine if Manson had dedicated his powers to being a super-soldier? We probably would have found Osama bin Laden by now. The give soldiers guns for a reason, man. No need to be so huffy about it.

Well, what if he'd 'dedicated' his 'powers' to creating the perfect fondue, or collecting rare 78's, or playing the waterphone, or quail hunting, or cheese, or dissecting the complete works of Ben Jonson, or putting on small off-broadway productions of forgotten Victorian satires, or studying penguins in the wild, or watching the Golden Girls, or fighting bulls in Catalonia or curating a toy museum?

He'd be a bloke with a hobby. Instead, he 'dedicated' his 'powers' to taking too many drugs and going off the deep end. I've never found him impressive, is all. I mean, throw a rock into Haight-Ashbury and it'd hit ten blokes who could talk the same amount of merda as Manson before someone would try and smoke it.

 I've got into arguments in Manson threads before, and I think with you, Dada, but the implication that there are 'right' people to kill, and that this is a good thing, is what's abhorrent to me in your statement. Got it?

I can get behind your comments if you're against all forms of war. In that case, I respect your position and believe it to be commendable.

Well, there are shades of grey. I am against most war, yes. WWI (the Somme excluded) and it's sequel are exceptions, but it's not like I'm exactly a fan of what either side did to each other. I do not think the examples you cited are 'good' wars. But we are derailing this thread!  ;D

I used to work at a bookstore years ago and this old retired LAPD Detective used to come in a lot, and one time I asked him about the Tate murders and he said something about a couple of Manson girls getting beat up pretty badly at some S&M party at the Cielo Drive house. He didn't necessarily say this was the motive (or a motive) but he did say that it would help to go through the original police files on the case in order to get to the bottom of it.

 I'd like to see any of the surviving detectives who worked on the case be interviewed. It would make a nice change from hearing the same garbage Vincent Buglosi and Steven Kay keep spouting.

You fuck'n kiddin' me, here?

How can ANY war be okay in any way? It's that exact gray-area thinking that allows unlimited wars to go on forever, because, after all, there's always someone who thinks it's a just war. No war, all the time. That's as simple as it gets. The morals are clear...

In a perfect world yes - no wars. But we don't live in a perfect world and some conflicts ARE unavoidable. WW2 had to happen. A madman was trying to wipeout half the planet and he had to be stopped. Every country has the right to protect itself from invaders. That is not the same as going to other countries to wage wars which I am totally against.

Oh yeah, 'countries' go to war. Uh uh. Individuals are sent to war. And NEVER to save innocents, but to help insure the well-being of the State and Empire.How did carpet bombing Dresden (a city full of 'civilians') protect 'us'? You see, when you follow the axiom of non-aggression to it's logical conclussion, an individual can only morally take the life of another individual who poses an immediate threat of harm. Not a possible threat. A real, active, gonna kill you threat. You cannot justify killing innocents in order to save innocents. You see, it makes no sense (said in an over-the-top Bill Hicks way). Please see this article written during the Great War (WW1) for more insight http://antiwar.com/bourne.php (http://antiwar.com/bourne.php)
Sorry to come off as a dick, but when will people stop justifying evil, even if it's the lesser of two (or more)?

Folks, if you want to talk about the use or nonsense of wars, please head towards the Sandbox section. Although hardly a peaceful topic, this IS (or originally was) about DW and Manson...

OK will stick to subject. Did anyone here know Squeaky Fromme once marched up to Dennis Wilson's house and demand he turn over all the recordings the Beach Boys had of Manson or she was going to kill him?

Did he do it? I would've, especially if squeaky were the messenger (for all sorts of f-ed up reasons!).

He lied and said he's destroyed all the tapes. Wilson's have a funny habit of doing that don't they?  :lol  The proverable Beach Boys/Mansonophille wet dream is where it's been been for the last 40 years - locked up deep in Capital's vaults, denied by most that even such a thing exists.

As for Squeaky, I'm reading her book at the moment and lets just say that her father could have gave Murry Wilson some tips on how to be a bad parent. The man was a monster.

I haven't read the book, but her father is what she says he is, just because? Are there any other eyewitness accounts?
Murry gets a bad rap as a parent, probably largely justified. But he sure did push his boys to greatness.

Actually I don't think she had any active participation in the book. Sources are from people who knew her. The guy who wrote the book interviewed many of Squeaky's schoolfriends and parents of schoolfriends who mentioned that she would turn up to school black and blue from beatings.

From an early age her father would forbid Squeaky to eat with the rest of the family in the dining room and make her eat her meals alone in the kitchen. He also completely ignored her from the age of 13 to 16. He would not speak to her or answer her. He insisted any form of communication be passed on between her mother. He often forbid her to enter the home and it was only through the kindness of friends she rarely had to sleep on the streets. He would knock her about and although not stated as such, the book strongly implies he was molesting her sexually. By 16 she had slit her wrists once and tried to OD so clearly the poor girl was exceptionally troubled.

Murry pushed his kids to success, Squeaky was pushed into the arms of Manson.

Vaults, yes. Capitol, no.

I wonder just what they sound like. We know Dennis gave "Cease to Exist" the full production works but I'm willing to guess Carl and Brian gave Manson's own recordings more of a "Smiley Smile" feel to them. Has the names for any of the titles ever slipped out? It's probably for the best no one asks me what I'd be willing to do to hear these recordings!!

What would you be willing to do?

I said don't ask!!  ;) :lol

Thought experiment: if these tapes would contain hours and hours of pure musical genius, how would you feel whilst hearing them?

I wouldn't feel right, although there have been other examples: Italian composer Gesualdo was quite insane, but highly gifted. When he found out that his wife was cheating on him, he hired a killer who drove a sword to the woman and her lover in one go.

But I like to listen to his works, it's so long ago.

About Spector: I listen to Back To Mono with just the same pleasure as always. Although, of course, he's in jail for murder.

But something tells me that the thought experiment above would not leave me careless at all. Even if the music's great, I would have terrifying images of mutilated bodies in my head.

And you?

There's a Manson Lp available somewhere, "Lie";  I wonder if any of those songs were re-recorded  with Brian producing?

I have Lie and and I think it's very good for a lo/fi recording. Charlie had talent, there's no doubt. He just also happened to be a sick muther. Ex Family member and fellow musician Paul Watkins has said that right up until the arrests, he, Charlie and others were in recording situations with some very happening people. People who have of course have hushed up any involvement they had with Manson whatsoever. I seem able to separate the man from the music. I find it harder to watch any movie with Sharon Tate in to be honest.

Here's a song from "The Family Jams" record. Corny yet beautiful. The whole album has wonderful female harmonies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4bSgeYaAaw

Neil Young for one seemed to be very impressed with Charlie's ability to create a song with lyrics on the spot, and continue playing the song and improvising/singing lyrics as long as he wanted. Other musicians agreed with Neil and thought he had some kind of unique talent, while others saw him as a charlatan and a hack, with some talent as a writer.

The other backstories are how many music-biz folks passed on working with Charlie directly, yet out of some kind of favor or obligation referred someone else for the job. And a few of those notable "someone elses" got seriously f***ed up as a result, which is sad.

Neil Young does seem to be the only one to admit having dealings with Manson prior to the slaughters. Who knows what Charlie could have sounded like with a decent production job? Phil Kaufman is credited with producing "LIE" but he basically just pressed the record button.

The best interview I ever saw with Manson was done by the excellent Tom Snyder. He knew how to draw the man out, almost to the limit. The main focus at that time was on the heinous acts and interview time goes by quickly. If someone could get to him now, somebody really good, perhaps the focus could be widened to the music angle and what really happened in more detail than the recent TV productions. This may never happen though because I vaguely remember reading that the prison has banned him from any further interviews.

My favourite Manson interview is the one with Diane Sawyer. She has a look of absolute disgust and incomprehension on her face throughout it. Charlie's his usual charming self - quote "Look woman, I'm a convict, a rebel, an outlaw. I ain't no Sunday school teacher!"

The most insightful Manson related interview I've seen is the one Susan Atkins did in 1976.

If you want to see something to really make your skin crawl check out this Sandy Good interview, esp her expression around the 2:50 - 2:55 mark. Despite her obvious flaws, I always considered Sandra a hottie, but her face here is the stuff nightmares are made of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCn4cn8ncL4&feature=related

I'm always amazed just how many truly looney people there are in this world!

Not only that but that the courts considered Sandy sane enough to be out walking the streets! Look again at that trademark vacant stare in her eyes, clearly she took one trip too many and never fully came back.

I think that stare just says she's still on the Charlie trip

A bit of both perhaps? It's sad because ATWA does/did carry a positive message about looking after mother earth and not polluting it. Sandy and Squeaky were also preaching this many years before it became trendy to do so. However, any good intentions is FAR outweighed by the demented bitch's bizarre belief that the Tate/LaBianaca murders were committed as a measure of raising awareness of environmental issues and therefore justified. Killing a pregnant woman and her friends? Protecting the planet and it resources? No, I fail to see the link between the two. Sandy comes across as an idiot whenever she tries to persuade people of this. Sandy has not been heard from in many a year so hopefully she's finally got this crap out of her head.

Back to the Beach Boys- Although now commonly known, at the time of the murders was it public knowledge that they had covered a Manson tune on their last record? Never Learn not to Love was credited solely to Dennis on 20/20. It must have helped that the BB's were not very popular at the time and were selling few records so few people would notice or care. Imagine if at this time they'd been as big as The Doors or CS&N, the media would have had a field day! They should consider it a blessing in disguise that they were yesterday men in 1969 because if they had their likeness beamed on TV next to Manson and the girls everytime they were on the news I don't think their image could ever have recovered from it.

How did the other guys treat Dennis for bringing this filth onto their doorstep? I bet Mike gave him grief about it for years.

I believe Dennis did mention Manson in a few interviews (one at least) around that time

Earliest mention was in the famous Rave interview from 1968 (although it may have been published in early 1969) during the course of which Dennis mentioned Charlie as a friend of his, and someone who might be signed to Brother.

I wonder if Manson had been signed to Brother would the horrors that followed have been avoided or not?

Freaky!! So I turn on the news this morning and the regional show reports that four cosmetics testing companies have been hit with vandalism and violence threatening letters not that far down the road from me! Sandy Good, coming to a town near you.....................

Manson would have been useless in Afghanistan or anywhere else as a murderer.  His talent wasn't as a killer, it was as a manipulator of minds.  Other people did all his dirty work.

In that case he'd be a good General or President...

First thing that came to mind was the scene in The Exorcist where Regan giggles after the death of the priest.

Beat me to it Grillo.  ;D


True, I half expected her head to do a 360 spin!!Whenever I hear Sandra talk in that smug, arrogant, self righteous tone, I initially get the urge to punch her teeth right down her throat. However once I step back and reflect on it somemore I find myself actually feeling sorry for her. She never should have been sent to a regular jail, she should have been put in a mental asylum and worked on night and day to deprogram her from all this loony toon nonsense. She has thrown her life away over some two bit hippy conman.

Was the "homosexual" experience the prison rape?

Kinda related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSBm576vcJw&p=D9BB20302496EBB2&playnext=1&index=44 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSBm576vcJw&p=D9BB20302496EBB2&playnext=1&index=44)

Hey, Meaty should praise the Lord he's a talentless git if not Charles and family might have glommed onto him instead.

Wasn't it Brian and Carl who worked on Manson's recordings rather than Dennis?

Allegedly.  ::)

Is it true that anyone who's going to interview Brian is given a list of commandments of what not to ask him? I imagine "So Brian what was it like working with Charlie Manson" would be at the top of that list.

That is not true.

When I interviewed they did not ask me not to ask anything but did ask me what I would be asking. Never wrote the word ask so many times!

I know I have read an interview somewhere on the internet, where at the beginning of the article the writer mentions that he was briefed beforehand to avoid certain questions. I suspect it was from the Landy era.

I thought around the time of the Spector trial it was suggested that Journos avoid asking Bri about him - a few did, of course....

That said, having certain topics vetoed by your press team seems to be pretty commonplace in pop nowadays, so it's not as if it's Landy all over.

"Brian Wilson Reimagines Manson" anyone?  ;D

Some more youtube-stuff:

Karen Lamm on Dennis and Manson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H1BKvHAtzo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H1BKvHAtzo&feature=related)


Gregg Jakobson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEl3ouD_Dqg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEl3ouD_Dqg&feature=related)



The house:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8zjFEgPsMU&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8zjFEgPsMU&feature=related)

Thanks Rocker. The Gregg Jakobson interview was pretty good. Who can blame Dennis for wanting all that sex on tap? Who here wouldn't have happily banged some of the Manson girls, crabs and the clap aside?

Journalist: 'Hey, Bri, good to see ya man! How was handling and producing Charlie Manson, by the way?'

Brian: 'Well, sir, I had to realize that I was not dealing with an average citizen, with a normal psychatric make-up. So what I actually did was read a lot on neuroscience and psychiatry, notably DSM-III TR and 'Principles of Neuroscience' by later Nobel laureate Eric R. Kandel. Furthermore, I did a course in interference therapy, and also in contextual handling of a fragile yet artistic mind.

Then mr. Manson and I went into the studio and recorded around 45 minutes of elegiac chamber music, with a string quintet and a pianist. Mr. Manson contributed the finest lyrics imaginable.

Alas, after the 'incidents' inextricably linked with the life and times of mr. Manson and his merry troupe of friends, I got orders from the highest quarters to burn the master tapes.

Sad, don't you think?'

Nice post Don, but you left out a few essential parts about the recording session;

1 - Brian got disinterested after 20 minutes or so and curled up in a corner, promptly falling asleep much to Charlie's annoyance.
2 - A then heavyset Carl flopped down onto a chair unaware that Squeaky Fromme was already sitting there and it was two days before he noticed she was lodged between his buttocks.
3 - Mike "just happend to be in the neighbourhood" and popped by, then got into a sulk when even the skankiest Manson slut refused to make it with him.
4 - Charlie tried to sacrifice Louie and Bannana in one of his Satanic blood rituals.
5 - Marilyn having finally had enough, ejected the Family from the house. On the way out Susan Atkins defecated in the stairwell.

 :lol :lol

I wonder why the DA never got Dennis up on the stand during the Tate/LaBiancia trial?

The answer to that is called Gregg Jakobson

Thanks Jon. Having recently read parts of the Court's manuscripts, I'm guessing there's nothing of note they could have gotten from Dennis that Gregg hadn't already told them? Plus having a well known celebrity testify could have prompted more of a media circus than the trial already was. Frankly, some of the blunders in the trial were staggering, most of the defense lawyers were a joke.

Reminds me of the O.J. Simpson trial. A correspondent wrote me that no one in the courtroom was able to calculate the circumference (or surface value) of a circle from its radius. An erroneous conclusion was drawn and made part of the proof.

While Gregg did 'save' Dennis from having to testify, there was quite a cat-and-mouse game that led up to this event.  Bugliosi was adamant that he was going to get Dennis to testify, but Dennis was more determined that he wouldn't, and guess who won?  I haven't gone back yet to look at the dates for the mini-tours that were set up, but every time DW was sent a subpena to testify, (and I had had one of these, which unfortunately is one of the few things I can recall that disappeared from my archive), Nick Grillo would arrange a tour to make him unaccessible.  They finally agreed to Dennis coming in and being interviewed, in exchange for dropping trying to get him in court.  And then, too, there was the agreement that Gregg would testify instead - and he subsequently sold a part of this story & testimony to Rolling Stone, which published it under an alias for his safety.  Needless to say, no one felt safe at that time...

Thanks Ed, I'm a real life crime buff (have ate up everything on Jack the Ripper and JFK assassination and am now firmly into Manson Family territory) so I feel very privileged that someone with firsthand knowledge can take the time to answer one of my questions. I have just finished reading a loooooooong out of print book "Witness to Evil" which covered the murder trial. If the book "Helter Skelter" makes out that the convictions were the result of a great prosecution team than the former implies that the case was won due to a bumbling defense.

BTW in his newest communication, such as it is, Manson tells us

"They gave what they could, and like you, fell short, just like all the living do.  As for me, myself, Manson, I was born dead and never learned not to love."

http://www.mansondirect.com/

I can't make heads or tales of what he is saying, but, yes, it gives me the creeps.

The real scary thing is that despite his unique way a phrasing things, alot of what Manson says about the environment actually makes sense. If he truly cares about these things or is playing mind games however is anyones guess.

Stopped clocks are right twice a day, and the devil can quote scripture. (see: Jesus's temptation in the desert)

Yes Manson is playing mind games.  That is all the psychopathic personality does.  We've discussed this before.  Everyone is a mark, every encounter a victory or a victimization.  The fact that people still listen to him, and he can still scare the bejeezus out of people 42 years later, is a manifestation of that.  They are extremely persuasive and, when they choose to be, very personable.  Hence Manson's ability to make the rounds not only of the BB, but Neil Young and other famous folk in his time.

My own personal tidbit in this hstory: some may know that the "LIE" record, being a bootleg and all, is not copyrighted.  So anyone can issue it.  When a small (now defunct) record label back east got the idea to reissue "LIE" on CD, my task was to make arrangements with the California Violent Crimes Compensation board to be sure that any funds that otherwise would have constituted Manson's "mechanical" royalties would be paid to them, not to him.  The obvious reasons: so no one could say Manson was getting paid, and no one could say the label was exploiting the victims. They couldn't have been nicer about it.  It wasn't a big seller (how could it be?) but perhaps the victims fund got a little money from it.

Interesting. I guess I never thought about it( you saying it's a bootleg).
Always just figured it was a legitimate release, somehow. 

 Incredible as it may now seem, back in '68 it seems Manson and co were tight with half the LA entertainment industry. Honestly, the list of people he was partying with reads like a who's who of stars. Obviously the hippy thing was very much in vogue and the rich and famous wanted in on it.

I have read that most of the tracks on LIE were also the titles of the songs Desper was engineering at Brian's house. Of course they are not the same versions. However this does make food for thought when listening to the album.

One last point before I sign off and I choose my words very carefully as to not appear overly sympathetic towards the convicted, if Manson truly was the king of the mindfuck as many believe, capable of brainwashing young, impressionable drugged out hippies into mindless killers incapable of operating under their own free will, then Atkins, Krenwinkle, Van Houten and even Tex should not have been found guilty of first degree murder on grounds of "diminished responsibility". It seems the prosecution had both it's cake and ate it on this one.

I should also add on the other side of the coin, having just ploughed through Adam Gorightly's "Shadow over Santa Susana", although far from being an innocent bystander, there is some rather strong evidence that Manson may NOT have been the ringleader in the murders. Even Dennis Wilson has misgivings that he was. For anyone that is interested I thoroughly recommend this book. For those that are bored shitless from this topic by now I apologise for dredging it up again.  ;D

Mark Lindsay, lead singer of Paul Revere & The Raiders, recently participated in a long-form interview with PopCultureClassics.com.  He was asked about Manson, and his story was interesting to me.  The whole interview can be found here:

http://www.popcultureclassics.com/mark_lindsay.html






PCC:
You mentioned living with Terry for a while. Was that the infamous house where the Sharon Tate murder took place?

LINDSAY:
Yeah, 10050 Cielo Drive. I actually met, ran into Manson up there one time. But luckily, I didn’t run into him that other time.

PCC:
Did he creep you out when you saw him? Or was there no indication?

LINDSAY:
Oh, yeah. I’d come home from a gig. I dropped my bag in the hallway. There was a meeting going on in the living room. And Dennis Wilson was there, maybe Abe Lastfogel [of the William Morris Agency] and Terry and a couple other people.

And I walked into the kitchen to get myself a cold one. And there’s this guy on the kitchen floor, squatting down, leaning against the refrigerator, like a door stop. So I try to open the door. He doesn’t move. I say, ‘Excuse me... Excuse me!’ And he doesn’t budge. And he braces himself against the door, but he doesn’t look at me. He won’t look up. So I walk into the living room and say, ‘Wait a minute, who’s the weird guy in the kitchen?’ And they said, ‘Oh, that’s just Charlie. He’s okay.’

But Charlie wasn’t okay. And after about two or three meetings, I think Terry realized that there was something really wrong with this guy. And Dennis had found him in the desert and brought him up to get him a record deal. But Terry realized something was way too scrambled to work. So he kind of backed out.

People thought that’s why Manson targeted that place, but Terry said Charlie knew he had moved to his beach house. But since he knew the layout, he sent his minions up there. He knew where everything was, how to get in and so on and so forth. But who knows? Charlie won’t tell.

Hmm, I recall an interview with Jim Van Bebber where he said they had to track down the guy that owns the copyright to use music from it in his film The Manson Family.  According to Jim, Phil Kaufman owns it.

If asked Charlie would no doubt say that no one can own his music.  BTW, has anybody here read the latest Manson book "Charles Manson Now"? It throws some considerable weight into the whole "Charlie didn't do it" theory.

It gives you the creeps because you allow it to give you the creeps.  All it shows me is a frail old man that isn't a danger to anybody not walking around looking for a reason to go crazy. 

Manipulators like him (he's great at it) do what they do the same way a hypnotist does what he does.  There's no skeptic in the world who can be hypnotized if they truly don't believe in it. 

This is different from a skeptic looking to believe, there are plenty of those too.  Some people will say "oh he can't hypnotize me" but in reality, they're afraid of it, or think that they might, or whatever and therefore are able to be hypnotized.

Anybody who doesn't believe, as a tenant that Charlie Manson is anything other than an asshole will never fall for his charisma/manipulation/whatever the hell you want to call it. 

I agree with the notion further up the thread, he could have used his talent to be a great person, just like anybody can use their talent to be a great person.  He likes to bitch and moan about what a hard upbringing he had, look at somebody like Aretha Franklin, born in a damn shack and became the greatest singer of all time.  Or look at a clown like Dog The Bounty Hunter.  Had a hard upbringing, ended up in jail, and eventually turned it around to where he can use his ego, eccentric behavior, and bad-ass sensibilities to do something halfway good instead of murdering people. 

All of his excuses are the same excuses a 12 year old gives.  Charlie won't be ruling hell or whatever he thinks when he dies,  he's just going to die and rot in the ground like other losers do. 

Several observations and questions to be considered when looking in to the Manson case.

1/ Why was the incriminating ravings of Sadie Atkins allowed to be published worldwide before the start of the trial? Gag order anyone?
2/ Why was Charlie forbidden to call any witnesses at the trial?
3/ In one of the biggest, most convoluted murder trials of the century, does anyone else find it a bit odd that the first person the Courts appointed to defend Manson was Ronald Hughes, a lawyer who not only had never worked a murder case but had never actually defended anybody period.
4/ Charlie was not allowed to address the jury for fear that he might manipulate and influence their thinking. Isn't that exactly what every lawyer does for a living?
5/ What was the real reason behind the chief prosecutor being mysteriously removed from the trial two thirds of the way in (allowing Buglosi to move centerstage)? Why has he never gone on the record about the case since?
6/ If Charlie was that obsessed with The Beatles, why does none of his music sound even remotely like them? Even the crappiest bar band can do a ham fisted 'beatlesque' knock off in their sleep.
7/ How exactly would killing a B' list actress actually incite a nationwide race war?
8/ Why did it take Sadie roughly 37 years to suddenly remember that Manson threatened to kill her son if she testified against him? Isn't it more likely that when Bugulosi found a much more lucid and credible star witness in Linda Kasabain he just dropped her?
9/ Bobby Beausoleil admitted decades ago that Charlie never told him to kill Hinnman. He was just trying the same old "Charlie hypnotized me into doing it" line that everybody else was copping to, trying to beat a murder rap.
10/ If the plan was to just randomly slaughter everyone in the house, wouldn't Tex and Co have just stormed the property and done just that? Instead the residents were tied up and (with the exception of Sharon Tate) only killed when they attempted escape. And if they were in the house for approx 20 mins, isn't it probable that some form of communication between the two parties was taking place?

Just sayin........

I have no idea what happened with Denny and the manson family. I was told by someone I trust with my life that Denny was affected terribly by what happened and never quite got over that nightmare. He said very little about  the situation, but made it clear, It scared him and he was filled with anxiety the rest of his life over manson. When asked questions about manson, he would turn his head away or look down and say. ( I can't go there, It hurts me) He put his hands over his face one time, he said, I never got over that periord of my life and never will. Ok, thats all I know. I wanted to tell you. Believe me or not, i know my sorce is telling the truth. I still have a hard time reading about his time with the manson family, it gives me the chills. I won't let that stop me from learning about his life, there is more good than bad, we have have good and bad, some more than others. Thanks.