The Smiley Smile Message Board

Why didn't they release any new material between "Child of winter" and 15 BO ? Why is there no album? With "Surf's Up" and "Holland" they had quite commercial succes (I think "SU" was in the 20s and "Holland" in the 30s of the album-charts), they were voted Band of the year by RS in '74 and Endless Summer was a No. 1-smash. They had all great publicity to have success with a new album. So why didn't they do it? There was enough material and I can' believe that it's only a matter if Brian's name was on it. "SU" and "Holland" were also produced by the BBs and not Brian. What kind of intern fightings were there in '74 e.g.? There must be a good one, I won't believe that even the Beach Boys would not release an album for such silly reasons....

Ah, but there's the rub -- with Endless Bummer doing so well, touring became extremely lucrative.  Why work on new material that is iffy when you can tour like mad and rake in the bucks?  The success of Endless Bummer killed the artistic drive of the band and it was label pressure to get a new album out at last. 

And yes, there was internal strife as well -- Carl and Dennis wanted to stay progressive, Mike and Al wanted material to please the hits crowd, and there came to be a stalemate.  This was seen by the aborted Caribou sessions in 1975 which only yielded Good Timin and that not for 4 years after. 

Yeah I knew about Al & Mike wanting the "oldies"-stuff (and thus killing the Beach Boys as a real progressive band), but at that point I think the "progressive" ones were dominating the group, weren't they? I mean you have Carl, Dennis, Blondie (or Ricky, dunno, who left earlier) and probably Brian who always said that the oldies-thing is freaky.

Blondie left after December 1973 after a falling out with people in the Love/Jardine axis.  Hazy details but it doesn't sound good.

Ricky stayed on until Nov/Dec 1974.  He left because he was bored.  Too much touring, no recording. 

So basically you had Al and Mike versus Carl and Dennis, with Brian in bed, and you have the constant pressure of suddenly huge audiences who have never heard Holland and don't like that material; they came to hear Endless Bummer live.  That last point shifted the scales to the TM axis decisively, as all of them liked and needed money.

So the only time where a new album had really chances was in '74 when Ricky was still with them and they had a little overhand(as long as Ricky had the same rights as every Beach Boy)? That makes me hate "Endless Summer" ! I guess that's the reason Mike is still doing that stuff, am I right?

However, Brian was all about the oldies. He only felt comfortable producing oldies covers, right? It happened with 15 Big Ones, and it started to happen with Keepin' the Summer Alive, as I recall reading.

I thought the oldies were just for him to "rehearse" so that he could do some new material and felt comfortable in the studio again. Only did he say "That's enough" and didn't do anymore on the album....

That was the idea, but apparently that's all he wanted to do. The thing I've noticed with Brian is how he loves covers and seems more confident to do them, even in the 60s (witness Sloop John B., Do You Wanna Dance, and I'm So Young). I guess it's easier to follow someone's blueprints and improve on them than to start from scratch, too.

Pretty easy to screw up, too. Compare It's Okay and Had To Phone Ya to Blueberry Hill and Rock and Roll Music. Yikes.

There may have been no album in 1974-75, but man there were a lot of recordings. Much of what's come out has been fragmentary, and most has just plain sucked. This same era spawned The Battle Hymn of the Republic.

Wasn't it therapeutic for him?

I may be wrong, because I can't be arsed to go and check, but doesn't Carlin state in the thread about his new book that 73 was where it all started to go wrong.  I think he refers to this period as BW's lost years, following the death of his father... Okay, I've found it: "I think those "lost years" were really about the death of Murry. And Dennis's life took a turn in mid-73 too, and not for the better. His ex-wife Barbara identifies that as the point where a cloud came over him. You could see it in Brian too: he put on a ton of weight, his personal habits got out of whack. And he didn't regain his balance 'til the next Murry -- E. Landy -- appeared." So, effectively, we have BW and DW trying to deal with personal issues and, presumably, using drink and drugs as an escape (and, maybe in DW's case, retreating into his own music) and we have Al going along with Mike for more summer fun... and the development of the band from 66-to Holland goes out the window...

Oh, there were definite attempts in 1975 to make an album.  Sessions were held in Caribou Studios, in Colorado, to attempt to come up with something.  River Song was worked on there, as were Good Timin and Battle Hymn among others.  Check out AGD's timeline for unreleased albums online for the details.

http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/unreleased.html

I doubt an axis every existed, especially along oldies/newies lines; maybe at some point who shared differing opinions about let's not ruin our lives and careers with drugs and public intoxication.  If there had also been demand for their new stuff, they would have released it in addition to ES, wouldn't you think, but......

As it was, weren't all the Boys [as in no axis] complaining during concert about all the demand for them to do the oldies?

Well, there's that  boot of that  LA Light Album tour show where Mike bitches the audience out.....  but listening to Mike's original material from the period and it's obvious that he liked the old formula.

But there was so much stuff in the vault already! Hell, they later put Good Time and When Girls Get together on albums, in pretty much the same state as they were already; why not put them on what became 15 Big Ones, rather than a few years later when they sounded even more dated?!

And hell, the cover of "You've Lost that Lovin' Feeling" and what was finished of "Sherry She Needs Me" was better than ANYTHING that DID get released on it.

I see everybody down with Brian's idea to do an oldie album and a new album.  I see a couple of guys getting pissy because Brian decided to combine the oldies and new and a couple of other guys giving in to Brian's wishes after they all, I understand, second guessed Brian with remixes.  An album of new quickly followed with everybody on board as far as I know, so I don't see why this era keeps getting held up as showing some sort of oldies/new axis within the group.  Brian apparently was very down with ES and oldies comps and what they were doing for the group and turned it to their advantage; their audience preferred the oldies and continued to ignore their new stuff.  The emphasis of old over new is from the public and not the group in my eyes, the new whithered because people didn't want it and not because the group didn't put it out.

On another point, I wonder why there are no Dennis or Carl songs on 15 Big Ones, while Mike and Alan both contribute (and of course Brian)

Good point, another reason there must not have been an oldie/new axis since the only ones contributing new music to BBs' albums in that period was the supposed "oldie" axis [Brian/Mike/Al] it appears to me.

Except that the "new" music was either old stuff (Al's song) or else was a contrived attempt to re-live the oldies style ("It's OK", "Everyone's In Love With You").  Carl and Dennis both had material available but it was not on the album.  Based upon their panning of their own album in Newsweek that year, I would guess that they had lost control of the band's direction.  Dennis said it was a mistake having Brian put in charge and that the album had no connection with where he was artistically.

There definitely was an axis in 1976.  The only question was how far back it was before it formed.

Other evidence:

-- Carl quit the band over its reliance on oldies in 1981.
-- Dennis made a whole solo album of progressive material that could have been offered to the band.
-- Dennis would not even participate in the MIU sessions, and Carl only provided a few vocals here and there.

It is very optimistic to think that Dennis and Carl fully supported the oldies turn.  It is also fairly romantic to think that Mike Love fully supported the progressive direction in the early 70's, taken in large part only to try to connect with a hip audience.  Once a guaranteed audience was there, Mike never once showed any interest in the progressive music.

Also, you gotta take into account Jack Reiley, who was behind much of the progressive music on Holland and Surf's Up.  He left in 1973, and so took a source of lyrics that the band could not replace.

Yeah, Dennis had "Rainbows" written for the Beach Boys I believe. Also 10,000 years ago (with Mike, no it waits to be released on "Mike Love, not war"). So there's been stuff. But I wonder why Dennis and Carl didn't let their stuff on the album. I mean with more songs by them, it could have been a real album instead of all the covers. Didn't they want that Brian produced their tracks and maybe "destroy" them? Jeff, you mentioned that Dennis said it was a mistake to give Brian total control (and that's saying something, when Dennis tells this!), so I guess it might've turned into that direction....

Cam, good to see you posting here.  We want you on that wall!

I don't know if the "Caribou Album" wasn't finished because of band turmoil, I place my bet in unfocused efforts and substance abuse problems.

I think in 1974 and 1975/76 we have a situation where Mike definetly wants an album produced by Brian Wilson. Why would he add a vocal to "Battle Hymn of the Republic" if not to keep Brian motivated to contribute more? Why would he vote to have that mess known as "15 Big Ones" released if not to keep Brian active and maybe in the next one he will be back in better shape?

Well, all you "Love You" lovers, it worked. Brian may have not finished the production of "Love You", but it IS a Brian Wilson album. Would I trade it for a better follow-up to Holland? Hell yeah.

I agree with Cam. Live there could be a struggle between the oldies and newer tracks in the set-list, but in the studio it was a different situation.

Well, yeah, but from what I've heard Mike didn't stand behind "Love you" and didn't like it. I believe he was quoted as saying that it's just a collection of demos or something. Dunno ho much truth lies in there, though...

Please give me evidence that Carl and Dennis were supportive of the new direction in the studio.  Keep in mind that Carl and Dennis were VERY open about their distaste.  Also keep in mind that Carl and Dennis had never bad-mouthed the band's direction to that degree before.  Keep in mind that after 15BO Dennis started his solo album chock full of material that was already written in time for an album in the time frame we are talking here and that he refused to have anything to do with MIU and disowned that album.  Plus the two near breakups, one in 1977 and one in 1978, one of which ended in Carl getting punched by people from the Love camp.  Granted that drugs were involved there, but this type of split doesn't happen overnight.  Carl and Dennis don't just start criticizing their brother's work to the press.  SOMETHING had to be at work at the core of the band's fiber, and every book on the band I know of that looks at that sees that tension.  Reviewers and interviewers saw it by 1976.  All was not well.  Somewhere I recently read that the band was taking separate cars and entering the stage from separate sides as early as 1971! 

I have the opposite impression. Isn't Mike usually blamed for the "Brian#s Back" campaign? And now he is blamed for not supporting him enough during this comeback? You can't have it both ways.

Tho book Heroes and Villians goes in-depth about this period. Al and Mike formed an alliance and were able to influence Brian to have a majority in the bands direction, a 3-2 vote was needed to make band decisions around that time. And Brian always voted with Mike and Al-somewhat influenced by Mike Love's cousin who looked after him at Brians house 24 hours a day. This arrangement came to a boiling point when Mike wouldnt allow Brian off a plane to hang out with Dennis and Carl. They all came out and argued, i think that might be when someone beat up Carl which offended Al alot, and the Love Alliance weaked a bit after that.

Remember, Mike Love's family was firmly entrenched with the business side of the Beach Boys at the time.

What??  :o :o
The audience was apparently unwilling to 'chicken dance' with him.  :)

For years we believed that Surf's Up had no Dennis tracks because Mike, Al and Bruce wanted more space after Sunflower... Now we know it that Dennis had a fight with Carl and withdrew his tracks from the album. I had read a few times that the "Bamboo" project started to die when the band moved two of its tracks to the LA Album against Dennis will... Now we know Dennis offered the tracks to the band and nobody twisted his arm.

I'm not saying that Mike and Al will come clean from every shady situation, but maybe we need some answers:

- why didn't Carl finish HIS tracks in '74: Good Timin' and Angel Come Home. (I think there was a sketchy version of ACH at the time ??)

- Were Dennis new songs (River Song, Rainbows, another one? POB?) refused by the band for the recording of "15 Big Ones" or had he already decided that his material would be exclusively destined for solo enterprises? 

- Why didn't Carl have a track in "15 Big Ones", if all he had to do was finishing "Good Timin'"? Were any of his songs or tracks rejected by vote?

Yeah, I agree that there was something very wrong with the band between '73 and '78 - LA Album was a kind of "let's try to do things right again" album - and by '77 there were definetly two separate camps. But what happened between '74-'76 era and the "15 Big Ones" disaster still needs some answers IMO.

EDIT: I checked and tehre wasn't a sketchy version of "Angel Come Home" in '74, I was making a confusion with "Love Surrounds Me". But I must ask, six years after "Trader" and eight after "Long Promised Road" and "Feel Flows", and the best Carl could bring to the table was "Angel Come Home", "Goin' South" and "Full Sail"?

Oh yeah! Well....but...I....you...............whhaaa? [confused, head between knees, paper bag breathing]

I'll probably end up discussing Carl later, but for now, just Dennis.

Dennis was not happy during the recording of the Surf's Up album. Dennis was not happy with the decisions that were made concerning 15 Big Ones.  Dennis was a major participant in "the fight" in September 1977.  Dennis refused to contribute to the MIU sessions, and then publicly criticized the album. When certain songs from the L.A. (Light Album) were played in concert, Dennis would walk off the stage. Dennis wasn't around for the sessions for Keepin' The Summer Alive. Something probably bothered him there.

If the rifts inside the Beach Boys were so bad, WHY DIDN'T HE JUST LEAVE THE GROUP!

Some people will defend him and say that his positions were correct. But either you're with the group or you're against the group. If you can't support the group, get the heck out. During that period of time, I see very few positive contributions that Dennis made to the Beach Boys.

And I love Dennis' music, by the way...

Cam, you know that we love you, man...

Is that George W's opinion?

I think Dennis had a love/hate relationship with the band. The Dennis you see in Knebworth doesn't look like he's hates the band.

And Dennis saved L.A. (Light Album) from being a total snoozefest.  That's contribution enough.

I guess they weren't supportive enough of Brian and his muse. Let's hate them.


My understanding is Carl quit because he felt the group wasn't interested enough in practicing, not over oldies.  Wasn't one of his explanatory quotes something about coming back when the present feels like the past?


But wasn't, an unusual way to get new stuff out on a BBs' album.  I see where Dennis and Carl were in oppostion to Brian over oldies on a particular album but not oldies in principal, I don't see how it constitutes an axis.  None of the Boys, including Brian, seem overly committed to oldies on even 15BO and there are none on LY. I have to think it was a strategy on Brian's part in reaction to the market at the time and it worked it seems to me.  More people heard the new material on 15BO than heard the new material on LY or C&TP, SU, H, 20/20, SF et al [probably].


Are those oldie albums?


I just don't see it this way. I don't see Carl and Dennis being anti-oldie and I don't see Brian, Mike and Al [or Bruce] as being anti-progressive, it doesn't seem to be an issue. To me it seems no was overly happy with the oldies of 15BO, Dennis and Carl went outside and bitched about it publicly, but their issues don't seem to be that the songs were oldies per se and they end up supporting Brian by singing etc. even though they had issues.  Mike, Al and Bruce seem to have worked on their issues with it quitly on the inside, fiddling and shelving remixes, contributing new songs, etc. but also ended up supporting Brian with the aforementioned and by voting to go with Brian's way even though they had issues with it.

Rob, I think Dennis loved the praise, adulation, money, girls, and being Brian (musical genius) Wilson's brother. I think he hated almost everything else about the Beach Boys.

And yes, Rob, Dennis does look happy at Knebworth. You don't think that's because there was a camera filming him do you? Or because of other substances?

I also like Dennis' material on L.A. Too bad he couldn't be supportive of his other bandmates' material, regardless of how "worthy" he felt it was.

I see what our problem here is.  Cam is taking me literally when I say "oldie" -- as in covers or rehashing songs as they exactly were in the 60's (i.e. their own hits).  I am not meaning that at all.  I would call "It's OK" an oldie-type of a song, or much of MIU ("Kona Coast" anyone?).  I mean a blatant attempt to recycle the sound and content of the early-to-mid 60's music of the Beach Boys without any attempt at maturity or recognition that they aren't teenagers anymore (best example -- what are men in their 40's doing singing a song called "Still Crusin'"? ).  When I say that Dennis and Carl opposed the new direction I mean that they were trying to make music that didn't depend upon the group's past identity but sought to grow up, to express the life they lived at that time, not what they did 20 years before.  Holland and Surf's Up are classic examples; the Beach Boys could have made a great career out of environmental consciousness (esp given Mike and Al's later leanings) if they had just been willing to pursue those ventures and continue seeking lyricists who could make it work.  Instead, you get albums like MIU which churn up cliche after cliche (or cover after cover). And that is what galled Carl and Dennis.

Cam, I have never been a "let's support Brian at all costs" person, and I think that Brian should have listened better to the concerns of the band over Smile, so don't throw that one in my face.  I think that Mike and Carl had valid issues that Brian for whatever reason couldn't handle during the Smile era (I just think that they DID oppose him).  There are no villains here nor am I passing judgment.  I am just trying to account for the music.  I see two brothers who come from a family where loyalty is treasured above all, who have always maintained that well, suddenly rip on their brother's work in the media.  And you are right, they also probably remixed Brian's work when he wasn't around.  No judgment intended, but I do think that Carl and Dennis didn't want the band to become a fun'n'sun band and Brian was about to kill any chance that they had to continue on with 15 Big Ones.


Carl did have issues with the band for its lack of practice and wanted that tightened up.  No question.  He wanted the band to take the music seriously again.  But part of that was a variety of music, a willingness to play some of the more obscure music as well as the obvious hits.  Carl didn't want to spend night after night playing the same song list over and over, which is probably why no one was practicing -- that would get dull quickly.


You can't use the sales of 15BO to prove anything IMO.  Yes the album sold and people played it....once.  Notice how many people have rushed out to get the same album on CD?  Or how easy it is to find that at a used record store, possibly the easiest original BB album to find?  No one really liked the album.  Because Brian did a poor job on it, because he wasn't committed or ready.  Love You is a different animal and you are correct to remove it from the fun'n'sun stream (which is probably why Carl and Dennis so willingly embraced it), but by that time the damage to the group's soul was a cancer and nothing was going to cure it I think.

Carl was willing to be supportive to a degree by singing, but that's all I hear -- none of the Carl that you hear on Surf's Up can be found on MIU save the occasional passionless lead.  Dennis is another story.  NO WAY he supported Brian and the band by doing ANYTHING on MIU or KTSA, and he only did stuff for Carl on LA.  But that's as much Carl as diplomat as anything. 

Think of it like this, Cam -- you have heard the albums.  Do you honestly not hear the break in continuity in those albums?  And do you think that the band all agreed happily to go down the retread path?  Especially given what we know about the blowouts of 77 and 78?

Jeff, I'm not Cam, but I would like to respond to your post.

First, I AGREE with you that the Beach Boys did break the continuity in their 1970's albums.

I noticed in several of your posts on other threads that you think rather highly of the Beach Boys' material from 1968-1973. BUT I DON'T THINK THE BEACH BOYS DID. I think in 1974, the Beach Boys considered their recordings during that period as failures, or at least disappointments.

The Beach Boys hung in there with Brian on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, but after Friends stiffed, I think they were ready to move ahead to more adventurous ground. Actually, the group was going bankrupt. We love Sunflower today, but remember, in 1969, it was rejected by the record company, and was their worst selling album to date. Surf's Up sold better, but had no Dennis and had to be "saved" by the title track. Carl & The Passions was a critical and commercial failure, and you could tell the Beach Boys were "reaching" with the additions of Chaplin & Fataar. Did anybody rave about their songs? Holland was another album rejected by the record company.

IMO, by 1974-75, even though the Beach Boys were touring to sellout crowds, I feel they were kind of beaten down by the relative failures of their recent (post 1967) recordings. I think Carl as producer had enough. Was anybody clamoring for more Al Jardine songs. I don't have to address Mike Love with you. And good old Brian. What "artistic" statements did he want to make? Or could he make at that time? We're still waiting for them 35 years later. I will agree with you that Dennis was ready and able to do some heavy stuff, which he eventually did with POB.

Maybe we gave the Beach Boys more credit than they deserved as far as recording "artistic" albums in the 1970's and 1980's. Look at Carl's solo albums. Al still hasn't done one. Looking Back With Love? BW 88?

Or maybe they were really just being themselves. And those "fun" albums of the 70's were really who "the guys" were - even in their 30's and 40's.  Just celebrating the joys of everyday living...

 

Sherriff, I honestly can't get your post.  It goes against all of the history we have and speculates on motives with little or no factual evidence.  Most of the albums you list received rave reviews, starting with Sunflower.  Rolling Stone gave it a good review.  Surf's Up also got raves, and the touring show was starting to kick into high gear.  Carl and the Passions was a bit of a setback, but a #50 placement on the charts is still far better than most of the recent material.  And Holland also went top 40.  The only reason Holland was rejected was lack of a hit single.  The BB were perceived as a hits band and Warner didn't want to push an album as an album from a band so perceived (think the Kinks). 

One time I saw a critics' lists of best rock albums done in 75 or 76 or so.  It was various critics' favorite albums at that time.  Surf's Up and Holland was popping up a lot.  This material was well received, and Carl had to be aware of how well it was being received.  The live act was in full gear BEFORE Endless Bummer.  You can't tell me that the band (except maybe Mike) were unaware of the critical shift or thought it was a bunch of failures. 

I think that Peter Carlin may well have the decisive insight -- the death of Murry in 1973.  If you notice, they never did another Holland after he died.  Everything changed.  And that might well be where the rips in the fabric of the group began.

Jeff, I'd like to clarify my point without repeating much of my above post.

Smiley Smiley sold OK, thanks to "Good Vibrations" and "Heroes And Villains". But then (I think) Wild Honey sold less. And then Friends sold even less. I really don't think the record buying public, or even the group themselves (other than Brian), would consider Smiley Smile and Friends as successful albums. And obviously, Capitol Records felt the same way because they were issuing the Beach Boys Greatest Hits Vol. 47 and not renewing their contract.

Now, before the ink is even dry on their new contract with WB, their first album, Sunflower, is rejected and eventually tanks. You can only take so much solace in positive record reviews, but the fact is, nobody heard Sunflower in the United States. Apparently, this devasted Brian.

Yes, Surf's Up got good critical press and sold better, but again, no hit singles, in fighting with Dennis, and the album was only accepted after VDP suggested "Surf's Up" be resurrected. Yes, I'm speculating, but I don't think this was a pleasant experience for the group. Bruce left.

Now, the group decides to change their sound. Why? Yes, I'm speculating, but maybe they weren't happy with their previous sound. Maybe they wanted to sound more contemporary or "hip". So in comes Blondie and Rikki. Were the "Flame" songs successful? No. Did Pet Sounds being grafted to CATP help it sell? Pet Sounds - an "oldie" album.

Almost everything I read about Holland is negative. I'm speculating again but I think for every good review of Holland, there is a negative one. Again, the album was rejected by the record company. If it wan't for VDP, there might not have been a released Holland.  Sales were better than CATP but not as good as Surf's Up. One step front, two steps back. Now Chaplin and Fataar were gone. So was Jack Reilly. What was left?

Jeff, put yourself in 1974. Do you really think the record buying public were clamoring for more of the last 5-6 Beach boys' albums. From what you've read (and I know you've read a lot), was the recording of those post-1967 albums a positive experience for the group. Did Carl produce the records because he wanted to or had to. I think they had enough. I think they were afraid. I think they used up most their ideas. Other than Dennis, I don't know how much "artistic vision" was left with Carl, Mike Al, AND Brian. And this I will repeat - just look at their solo albums where they had the freedom to be "artists".

One last thing. Times had changed. No more war. No more Nixon. The bicentennial was approaching. They were in age 30-something to 40-something. They had money again. Carl, Dennis, and Brian were drug addicts. Maybe they actually preferred being the good old Beach Boys instead of trailblazing music makers.

I don't know if this makes my point any clearer...

Late edit - yes, I see the correlation with Murry's death.

I dont have anything to add, but wow! I knew Brian and Dennis were in the drugs but I didnt think Carl was. I figured maybe some pot and acid...but nothing to heavy.

I need to pick up some books, fast!

All this is true...in the US only. Worldwide, they were more popular than ever.


Carl was on smack.

What did Mike say to the audience and what was he mad about?

Michael was ranting about his 10 inch c*ck, compared to Denny's meager 9.5 in....oh, and mocking them about requests...ladida...

Does anyone know what Dennis is doing on the cover of the beach boys in concert'73 LP? I DO..

look at the expressions of the audience...

"15 Big Ones" was a huge break in the continuity. FACT

Dennis and Carl were disappointed with it. FACT

But there's much more to this story. If you look at Mike's role in the album, it was more or less like Holland. He got included a "solo" track, "Everyone's in Love With You", which is as much a fun in the sun song as "Big Sur". And he got a cowrite with cousin Brian, "It's OK", as he had before with "Funky Pretty" (though that one also had Rieley in the credits). This time his collaboration with Dennis wasn't finished, "10.000 Years", to match "Only With You".

Brian was way more active this time. Ok, "Had to Phone Ya" and "Back Home" were rehashes. But "It's OK", "That Same Song", "TM Song", "I Want to Pick You Up", "California Feelin'" and "Good Timing" were available. Those are the ones I really know, i'm not counting "Patty Cake" and the sorts".

After two tracks in Holland, Al had no new material that we know of. "Suzie Cincinatti" was six years old by that point. "Out in teh Country" was a leftover from Holland but Al chose to not rework it for the next album.

About Carl and Dennis, I already asked pertinent questions.

This is the whole episode....

Al starts out saying something like, "We have some more old songs coming up soon, so please be patient!"

Bruce: "Yeah, you know we have to play stuff off our new album and all...."

Mike says, "Oh, you wanna hear 409, there, in the back?  Ok, we can do that...." (to the side, you can hear Carl moan, "Oh, all right..." with some genuine boredom as well as mockery in his voice)

A brief mocking rendition follows with what may be the most nasal vocal Mike Love has ever done.  After they get through the last opening "4---0---9"  Mike screams, "Now SHUT UP!!!!"  Then plows into Sumahama.

That was from memory so the quotes may be off a bit, but that was the gist of it.  If I remember correctly, it was the Nassau 79 show...

One other comment on Dennis -- one of the two bios makes this point but I can't remember which.  Why didn't he just quit?  Why did he tank his own solo album for LA by giving away two of the best songs?  Simple:  money.  No way he makes as much solo as he did as a band member, and the royalties for two songs on LA were better than a whole solo album's worth of material.  If money weren't an issue, he probably would have broken away.  Plus, the band selling Brother Studios also hastened the demise of Bamboo, as it took away the convenient place for him to record his way.

Sherrif also raised this question on site 2. The thing is, that the Beach Boys were his band (as well as everybodys). Everybody worked very hard to make the Beach Boys what tey were. Then someone comes and tries to make forget about the great things you have done(Dennis' most and best work was done in the "progressive years") and you just can't stand it. If he quit, it would show that the Beach Boys meant nothing to Dennis. But hell, the band was his life. Same goes for Carl and Brian and probably Mike and Al. When your kid gets sick, you don't just walk out of the room and wait til it gets healthy, you try to help him...





EDIT: BTW in the Knebwoth booklet, it is said that Al had concerns about the band being a "travelling jukebox". That was 1980

Question to anybody who read "The Real Beach Boy":

Did Dennis at some point in '74 or '75 decide that all his songs would be saved for a solo album or did he submit them to the "next album"?

Yes, Jeff, this is true. I addressed this point (money) on an earlier post on this thread.

But in addition to royalties, I believe that Dennis wanted to cash in on the Beach Boys' touring.

What a great gig! Play music for an hour and a half. Play the piano for a song or two. Sing two or three lines (You Are So Beautiful), take a break and let Bobby Figueroa fill in, have young girls swoon over you, get a standing ovation, and get a check!

Who would want to give that up. He would've had to work a lot harder as a solo act.

Stebbins has him planning for a solo album during the Endless Summer period.  According to Stebbins, the band wasn't interested in Dennis' songs so he decided to use them for himself.

That situation dates back to 1970, when Dennis was making his first conscious attempts at a solo career.

As far as the band was concerned on their position on Dennis' material, they were dumb as f***, man. Dennis had the class material, not even Brian was giving them much class material. I blame Carl mostly for that.

Jeff,

I imagine we all are going to have different opinions about what is progressive or not. New music was being released, not much by Carl and Dennis.  I'm not hearing in my head your suggestion that some of these songs are in an "oldies-style", I suppose I ought to actually play them.  On the other hand I remember lots of the music of that period taking a nostalgic feel which was progressive, imo, at the time.  Since I don't see this supposed axis, if there was a sea change in the BBs music I would suppose it to be owned by Brian since he was at the helm and having his way over all the Boys, maybe influenced by the nostalgia trend of the time since he was very much in favor of what ES had done for them.

I'm not one to put any importance in reviews, they are basically one man's opinion and seem to have had not enough impact on the acceptance the albums mentioned, with them being not bought at all or bought even once and never listened to again in multiples of 15BOs.  On the other hand, 15BO was certifiably accepted multiple times more than the other abums mentioned [regardless of how many single listens any of them got].  I'm not a big fan of 15BOs but my opinion is no more important than any music critic's and doesn't change anything and I see it as Brian being right and Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al and maybe Bruce being proven wrong in their supposed qualms about 15BO.  Even if there were an axis, which I don't see, it seems to me to have been Brian on one axis and Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al and maybe Bruce  on the other axis with all of them scooting over to support Brian to varying degrees.

I don't know about Carl and Dennis' motives beyond their professed opinion that they felt they knew better than Brian.  In the end they supported Brian, as did the other Boys.

I think 15 BO's succes came from the "Brian's back" campaign and the big myth and expectations and not from the album itself. If they had released "Love You" instead, it probably would have sold as well as 15 BO

While the campaign was one reason, I think there were others as well:

1. The momentum from the releases of Endless Summer and Spirit Of America
2. "Rock And Roll Music" caught on as a hit single
3. Yes, indeed, the "Brian Is Back" campaign brought attention
4. The "old guard" from the 1960's who never left the Beach Boys' fandom
5. 15 Big Ones was a listenable album. While it obviously deserves some of the criticism it
    receives, there are at least 7 songs that are respectable -  It's OK, Had To Phone Ya, That
    Same Song, Palisades Park, Susie Cincinnatti, Back Home, and Just Once In My Life

Isn't that a myth?

Friends / 2 Dennis tracks in 12
20/20 / 3 in 12
Sunflower / 4 in 12
Surf's Up / 2 in ? (you know the story)
C&tP / 2 in 8
Holland / 2 in 9

Dennis had a great run between '68 and '73. Take those 15 tracks. Throw away Got to know the Woman and Make It Good, and you have a better album than POB.

Now about the "next album" in '74-'76... It doesn't make much sense that Dennis' tracks were suddenly rejected. I don't know what Stebbins means with "not interested". Maybe Dennis was just tired of the group politics when it was time to assemble an album - that worked against every songwriter in the band, even the "oldies axis" - and decided to move his attention to a solo career. I doubt Dennis couldn't get a track or two in 15 Big Ones if he played the game.

I think in 1974 when they were SO pressed for material, they should've overdubbed some existing Dennis recordings and made an album out of them. From 1974 onward, Dennis was the best writer they had.

Dennis knew he had good material, and it was being ushered away in favor of much lesser songs by Michael and Al. I think Carl's tracks are some of the most overrated dirge bearing the Beach Boys' name, and as far as I'm concerned, Dennis could write tunes in his sleep better than Carl could when he was awake.

Dennis was by far the best writer the band had in the 70s and early 80s. As great as Pacific Ocean Blue is, imagine how much better it would have been with the Beach Boys on there. Granted, that's wishful thinking in the extreme, but that could've brought the band some MUCH-needed critical respect in 1977 that they were sorely lacking after 15 Big Ones.

Yeah, but a Beach Boys album with a majority of Dennis tracks is just unrealistic. As a Beach Boy, Dennis certainly didn't help himself much. Guercio had a hard time working on POB and its follow-up.

By follow-up I assume you mean Bamboo. Bamboo was actually started BEFORE Pacific Ocean Blue was. Pacific Ocean Blue most likely was the situation where Dennis suddenly had a recording contract (in 1975, he was advanced $100,000 by James Guercio) and had to put together 12 songs he had recorded. Much of the music on Pacific Ocean Blue can lay claim to have been recorded as early as 1970 to as recently as 1974-75. What's come out on bootlegs calling itself Bamboo is an amalgam of various 1977-78 tracks not particularly connected to an album project. Someone we know very well leaked them.

Dancing Bear, great post. I was also going to point out the album by album breakdown of Dennis-contributed tracks, but I was too lazy to dig out the CD's to add 'em up. Thanks for doing it.

Anyway, could the fact that Dennis contributed no tracks to 15 Big Ones be because around the same time the Beach Boys were recording 15 Big Ones, Dennis was recording Pacific Ocean Blue. I don't blame Dennis for not giving away his best material. Although you would've thought at least one track (maybe a reject from POB) would've surfaced on 15BO's.

With The Beach Boys Love You, the band was pretty united in going with Brian's "new" material exclusively. Dennis contributes significantly (some would say to the detriment) on the album.

And then Dennis wants no part of MIU and publicly ridicules the album.

And on L.A. (Light Album), Dennis is welcomed again and contributes three songs.

Other than the gray area with 15 Big Ones, I don't see a conscious attempt by the band to reject Dennis' songs.

Dennis offered the track Pacific Ocean Blues for 15 Big Ones and had it coldly rejected. He then revamped it for Pacific Ocean Blue.


Two songs.

As an aside, an old friend of mine (if you're reading this board, Ray, post!) went backstage at a show in the late seventies or early eighties and asked Dennis why he didn't release his second album.  He described how Dennis leaned his head back and croaked out "Don't have to!"

Jason, it's interesting that Dennis would've offered what was eventually the title track of his solo album. They should've taken him up on the offer! That would've been a good one for 15 Big Ones. Does that one rejection change the debate significantly?

Also, thanks for correcting me on the number of Dennis tracks on L.A.  See, I told you I should've dug out the CD's and checked...

They rejected a number of Dennis tracks. Dennis had tracks rejected from Surf's Up (possibly, if you believe the "Carl and Dennis had a fight" story), Holland, and 15 Big Ones.

Cam, we can agree to disagree.  I find 15BO to be a major retrograde step produced by a man who was not healthy enough to be doing record production, coerced in by a desperate band.  Well, Mike and Al at least, and maybe Carl and Denny at first.  I think that Carl and Denny changed their tune quickly, though.  Either way, it just isn't a great album.  Whatever album that the BB released in 1976 was destined to go Top 10, but it had to be a good one to sustain their momentum.  Instead it was fodder for the critics to use to exile them to the scrap heap.  I think Carl and Dennis saw it coming.  Disagree?  I guess we part company here.  But it would be ignoring history to not see a split between Mike and Al on one side and Carl and Dennis on the other by 1977/8.  Maybe you don't see it in the musical styles, but at least you have to see it personally.

What should've happened was:

Let Brian do whatever he wanted to do. After he was finished, rather than just use that material and call it an album, have the others (Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al, whomever) produce/write, and put it with the best of Brian's stuff. In other words, the same formula as the previous albums. Only this time, there would've been a lot more publicity behind it and it would've sold.
Like Andrew Doe said in his book "...maybe Brian could do the trick, and a new Beach Boys album, produced by-or even just featuring-Brian Wilson, released in America's Bicentennial year,surely couldn't fail".

I bolded that for empahasis. I hate to say it, but Brian is what ruined the album. God, I hate saying that, because I honestly look up to the man, but he just wasn't up for it.  They had so much better material in the vaults, stuff that could've just been re-worked, that would've made it so much better.

Here's a better track listing, with songs that actually appeared on the album, and songs that were recorded (and mostly finished) by that time.

1. Rock & Roll Music
2. It's Ok
3. River Song
4.Had To Phone Ya
5. Loop de Loop (I actually think it would've fit on this album, and still be progressive enough)
6. Everyone's in Love With You
7. That Same Song
8. I just Got my Pay- Would've been actually newer than Susie Cincinatti, right? Also would've fit on the album, and be progressive enough too.
9. Back Home
10. Susie Cincinatti
11. Sea Cruise
12.  Palisades Park
13. Good Time -If it appeared on Love You, it could've appeared here instead, why not?
14. When Girls get together- See above, and replace Love you with KTSA
15. You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling- God, Brian's voice on this was awesome.

And hell, if Out in the Country was finished (I've never heard it, but have heard OF it) replace Sea Cruise with that.

I've actually made a play list with these tracks, and IMHO it flows much better. It still has a LOT of Brian, but makes use of the vaults,which they did from MIU onwards anyway.

The BB's were 1960's America's premier vocal-hit machine and by 74-76 they were over as challenging original stylists and basically though not totally they were heading dangerously close to repetitive vegas act.  Still they could kick out killer vocal power pop at will.  To their ability a testimony is this....No one has duplicated their classic harmonic blend nor their majestic productions on almost all of their recordings.    I feel what with Brian's comeback of late, and Mike and Bruce still kicking out their jukebox hits, It is still possible for a reunion for that one last cash grab. 

I believe the "Carl and Dennis had a fight" story, because it wasn't told by somebody who wanted desperately to defend Mike, Al and Bruce. Quite an unbiased source, in fact.

About Holland, yeah, "Carry Me Home" was rejected, but "Steamboat" and "Only With You" were included. Everybody had tracks rejected in the early seventies, except Carl - I think. It's part of being in a group.

About the POB song, damn I 'd love to listen to a version recorded by the group. Ed told us that Dennis didn't like the song much, and the record company decided that it would be a good title track, a decison that Dennis half-heartedly agreed to.

Jason, are you suggesting that any track Dennis offered the band in '76/76 would be rejected? I understand that you love Dennis' work and his tracks were mostly better performed when worked by Dennis with the band - in case you think so, I whole-heartedly agree. Let's dream about a perfect 1975 album with 12 tracks written by Dennis, produced by Carl and sung by the Beach Boys.

But I just don't see where Dennis was let down by the band. After Holland's moderate success I guess it was hard to try AGAIN another album in that vein, and everybody was kinda tired, including Dennis who probably didn't want to offer 5 or 6 songs to the band to have 3 rejected and 2 recorded. But that's the way it was, everyone including the TM dudes had material rejected, and maybe Dennis chose the Caribou offer for a solo album -  it's a possibility.

When was 'Sail Plane Song' written?

That shouldve been put on an album.

Probably couldve been a helluva single too.

67, 68,69, maybe? It eventually became Loop de Loop, which I agree should've been on an album.

I prefer Sail Plane Song over LdL x 1000000000000

such a great song, I can listen to it over and over and over

wheeeeeeeeeerooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Sail Plane Song was a Friends outtake from '68.

The demo that's featured in Endless Harmony was recorded in the same month Friends was released. Brian did nothing with it after that, then Al took the ball and ran with it. Have you noticed how the song was readapted to fit the Good Vibrations formula? Instead of "I'm picking up Good Vibrations", "Loop de Loop loop fly etc" sung by Mike, a line that didn't exist in Brian's demo.

And it freakin' WORKED.

      Here's what Jack Rieley had to say in October 1996 about some of the things you're talking about...


-------------------------

...The Beach Boys has been a bitter power
struggle since shortly after the beginning. Brian Wilson, Dennis Wilson
and Carl Wilson represented the creative side: the appeal to musical
beauty and romance and funk and get-down and freakz/fanz; Love, Jardine
and Johnston represented unbridled commercialism and power.  Before I
got there, Love, Jardine and Johnston had control. Because Brian or
Dennis often didn't bother to show up for meetings, the vote was general
2-3 against them.

When I arrived and changed the group's direction, it signalled a change
in the power-center as well.  With the backing of Brian, Dennis and
Carl, I fired Johnston, who had stymied the group's creative
cohesiveness. At the same time I encouraged the Wilsons to act as a
unit. Votes shifted to 3-2.

Interestingly, Beach Boys record and live revenues soared in that
period, having suffered heavily in the period that ended with the sales
debacles 20/20 and Sunflower.

Upon my depature, the Wilsons went back to disarray.  Carl was going
through terrible domestic problems. Dennis was having a divorce. Brian
adjusted poorly to life back in Belair after his highly creative,
physically positive (he rode a bicycle daily and lost weight) stay in
The Netherlands.

Love and Jardine saw the hole in their armour and rammed through to
renewed supremacy.  Their musical/ideological vision of the Beach Boys
was totally different from that represented during my period there. 
Love's bitter resentment of Brian's musical genius and his newly re-won
power meant it was back to shuck and jive.  Within a year the Beach Boys
had returned to the state they were in before I came along, but with
revenues built upon those generated during the Surfs Up, So Tough,
Holland, Live In Concert period.

Could this have been prevented?  The Wilsons should have determined my
successor. They did not.

    - Jack

------------------------------

Where is this report from, Dan?  Very interesting stuff - thanks for posting.

Before Rieley:

SUNFLOWER - 12 tracks
Bruce: 2 composition credits, 4 lead vocals
Al: 3 cc, 1 lv
Mike: 3 cc, 2 lv
Carl: 1cc, 4 lv
Dennis: 4 cc, 3 lv
Brian: 7 cc, 2 lv

After Rieley:

SURF'S UP - 10 tracks
Bruce: 1 cc, 1 lv
Al: 3 cc, 3 lv
Mike: 2 cc, 2 lv
Carl: 2cc, 3 lv
Dennis: 0 cc, 0 lv
Brian: 4 cc, 2 lv

SO TOUGH - 8 tracks
Al: 2 cc, 0 lv
Mike: 2 cc, 3 lv
Carl: 0 cc, 3 lv
Dennis: 2 cc, 2 lv
Brian: 3 cc, 0 lv
Blondie: 2 cc, 2 lv
Ricky: 2 cc, 0 lv

HOLLAND - 10 tracks
Al: 2 cc, 1 lv
Mike: 4 cc, 3 lv
Carl: 1 cc, 5 lv
Dennis: 2 cc, 0 lv
Brian: 3 cc, 1 lv
Blondie: 1 cc, 3 lv
Ricky: 1 cc, 0 lv

Will you do the math for me?  :P

Ricky had half a lead vocal on So Tough

Great, I thought he had only sung lead on "We Got love". I'm sure my list is full of mistakes and misjudgements like this, but my intent was facing Rieley's memories with what was actually pressed on vynil. No, I don't want to dismiss Jack's memories, but they shouldn't be the final word on inner bands politics between '70 and '73.

Brian only had three compositions on Surfs Up - the last three songs. He has a co-lead vocal on Take A load off your feet as well though.

Reiley said, '...The Beach Boys has been a bitter power
struggle since shortly after the beginning. Brian Wilson, Dennis Wilson
and Carl Wilson represented the creative side: the appeal to musical
beauty and romance and funk and get-down and freakz/fanz; Love, Jardine
and Johnston represented unbridled commercialism and power.  Before I
got there, Love, Jardine and Johnston had control. Because Brian or
Dennis often didn't bother to show up for meetings, the vote was general
2-3 against them.

When I arrived and changed the group's direction, it signalled a change
in the power-center as well.  With the backing of Brian, Dennis and
Carl, I fired Johnston, who had stymied the group's creative
cohesiveness. At the same time I encouraged the Wilsons to act as a
unit. Votes shifted to 3-2.'

I love the three albums made with Reiley, but didn't the BB try to get Johnston to quit in 69 and replace him with Billy Hinsche?  Didn't Bruce quit as opposed to being fired and didn't he continue to turn up at live gigs as well as contribute to tracks on CATP and Holland?
How come Love and Jardine's best stuff was written during these years if they were so anti 'creativity'?  Actually, isn't Disney Girls just THE great Bruce track too? Obviously, I'm not referring to all the great stuff the Lovester wrote with BW prior to this.
For years after this, Jardine continued to write (and occasionally record) songs in this progressive vein.  Again, if he was so against this stuff, why do this?  Of course, when he had some chance to produce prgressive stuff, he ended up concentrating on oldies or new songs with the oldie feel...

Jack seems to be a bit of an egomaniac, huh?  "Determined my successor," what is he, a king?  The Beach Boys needed to plan emergency lines of succession?

Funny that Josh -- I re-read part of Gaines last night in response to this thread -- Mike laid most of the BB problems at the feet of Carl for picking managers like Jack and some others, who caused in his eyes nothing but problems for the band.  Mike seemed to be less than enamoured with Jack...

Of course, when Mike had the opportunity to forge his own artistic vision with Celebration, he stuck to the fun stuff...

Then again, Dennis asks Bruce to contribute vocals to POB...

And Dennis asked Mike to write lyrics for POB.