The Smiley Smile Message Board

 I was just thinking that we have an abundance of information on Brian and Dennis' lives off stage.  But does anyone have any insight into Carl's life away from The Beach Boys.  I am wondering mainly about the 80's and 90's.  What type of stuff did he enjoy doing?  Where there any places he particularly liked visiting?  Outside of the music, did he socialize much?

I've heard that Hawaii was one of his favorite places.

There are a few things about Carl that I've always wondered about. But I've never really tried to hard to mention the topic for fear of being to negative. One of the things I have always wondered about is his drug and alchohol problems. Does anybody know when Carl started having abuse problems? He seems to have been fairly together up until 1975. By the time of the 15BO album, it's pretty obvious that he's "impaired". He seems to have hit a low point during the Australian tour in 1978. Did he get sober after that? I ask because on the recordings I have heard from later in the year, He still sounds fairly drunk or stoned. Brian's "autobiography" seems to paint the picture of a modern day Carl being a pretty heavy alchoholic. Is there any truth at all to that? The other questions I've always had are about his health. It's fairly well known around here that sometimes in the 1970's, Carl hurt his back and he had trouble with it for the rest of his life. Somebody here once said that in the 1990's Carl wore a back brace. Somebody on another message board said that Carl also had gout. Is anything known about that?

I think it's no secret that in 1975/6 Carl's marriage was unravelling and that he turned to, initially, alcohol and later heroin. The 1978 Australian tour was his low point, and he realised that: within a year he was off the smack and his drinking was under control (remember, Audree has a drink problem too, as far back as the late 60s - seems to be genetic). I've had it said to me that in the early 90s he hit the bottle quite hard again... and I will maintain that, irrespective of the date of the official confirmation of his cancer, there was something very wrong with him at least two years earlier (check out his January 1996 appearance on GMTV in the UK - he looks terrible), and that he knew it.

I think as far back as 1994, something didn't look right. He really looked bad at the Farm Aid show. I think that was 1995? Matt Jardine sang the leads.

Where can I watch this?

Used to be on youtube... but no longer.

The July 4, 1995 concert was broadcast on TV.  In my opinion, Carl doesn't look too healthy at this show either.

Yes, Carl wore a back brace in the '90s, even before he gained weight in late '94-early '95.

he did not look too well at the big red boat concert may 1995. he was not on the cruise, reason given was his back. he flew in for the show. he played well that night but looked like sh*t. i was in the 2nd row in the vip section, right behind the mayor of nassau. got a good look at him. at the time i passed it off as feeling bad 'cause of his back. but with hindsight it sure makes me wonder if he was already sick and maybe knew it.......

He looks ill as far back as the Star and Stripes sessions if you ask me, he looks bloated and tired. I would like to know more about Carl and I certainly feel that he is deserving of his own biography.

I was told by one or two people that knew him well that the conservatorship battle in the late '80s-early '90s hit Carl very hard.  

And never underestimate the effect of chronic pain on somebody's overall vibe.  I'd buy the back explanation just as much as the early cancer part of it.  A similar problem, though in a different part of the body (wrist), severely impaired Barry Gibb's life and ability to perform from about 1990 onward.

Barry also had back problems, I'm pretty sure, I remember Maurice making a comment on why the Bee Gees didn't do a considerable 1998 tour and Maurice said "You need your back to sing falsetto."

It was actually Maurice that had the back issues...it was one reason he stopped playing bass onstage (though far from the only one).

Ah, I stand corrected. What's your impression, Adam, did Maurice actually play keyboard live in the 80s and 90s or was he faking it? I know Robin lipsynced some (but not nearly all) of his vocals during that era.

Good question, I know what you're talking about, and I've looked at some of the footage from that era.  My impression is that Maurice was playing the string pads mostly...sort of like rhythm keyboard.  But it looked to me like he was really playing.

The lipsyncing issue is more complicated, but my understanding is they really sang, but had backing tracks that reinforced the harmony vocals, and I believe that Maurice and Robin also had the same deal with their lead vocals, so they were basically doubling the tracks.  I've played with cover bands that do this...you're really singing, but there's also a tape there behind you basically double tracking the sound (I hate it, personally, but this is a common practice nowadays).

My understanding is that Barry was always live and didn't do this with his leads, just the backups.

I know this is getting OT now, but Adam I agree regarding Maurice's keyboard playing, I had the same impression (that he was playing string pad parts).  But what are some of the other reasons you alluded to that he stopped playing bass?  I remember seeing them on the Midnight Special in '75 or '76, and he was playing a Ric bass.  Then in '78 or '79 or so they did a major network TV show with footage filmed at one of their concerts, and he was playing rhythm guitar on a Strat.  Flash foward to the '90s, and now he's playing keyboard. 

I'm not a Bee Gees expert, but this happens to be one of these wonky questions that peaks my curiosity and I've delved into it.  (If you want a REALLY wonky, great, examination of the band's work: http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beegees/ is where you want to go...this is where I got about 70% of my information)

Near as I can tell, a number of things all took place at about the same time.  The last bass performance that I'm aware of for MG on a Bee Gees record was on "Tragedy," and I believe all the rest of the bass on that album was a session guy (there's some question whether he played bass on a few later tracks, or whether it was synth bass).  The biggest factor, I think, was Maurice's alcoholism.  It got worse and worse as the '70s progressed and I believe that had a lot to do with moving Maurice off bass, and also with the addition of backup singers on the '79 tour.  Moreover, the word is that on SPIRITS HAVING FLOWN, Maurice and Robin's production involvement was much less than Barry's, and that, to paraphrase the words of one of the observers, at that time Robin was the guy who'd spot the one thing that was wrong and point it out, where Maurice was the guy who would offer the suggestion that had nothing to do with anything.

There was a second big factor and that was Barry Gibb's working with session players for the first time, which was in '77 or '78, I believe on the first Andy Gibb album.  Not only is BG a perfectionist but apparently he has an incredibly exacting sense of time and with session guys he discovered he could get exactly the performances he heard in his head.  Right after that you have the SPIRITS HAVING FLOWN album, the first one where MG is off the bass, and the entire Bee Gees band is dismissed in the middle of the LIVING EYES sessions in '81 (at which point MG has kicked booze, but having been shut out of the production/instrumental team for so long, wasn't able to fully re-establish himself).

What's interesting is that once the Bee Gees come back in the late '80s, Maurice is firmly back in the mix and co-creating equally, but he's mostly playing keyboards and this isn't entirely a good thing.  I am not a fan of Maurice's keyboard playing, even in the early days.  Big, humongous blocky piano, fat washes of organs, and later, huge, homogenizing beds of synth strings that made their later albums so dynamic-less.  Blue Weaver, by contrast, was amazing, so creative, melodic, and tasteful in his sound choices.  The only later album I really like is the last one, THIS IS WHERE I CAME IN, and that has a lot to do with it being a much edgier, guitar-oriented album (mostly).  The last single, the title track, is awesome, and Maurice really shines on this one on acoustic guitar.

I do, however, love Maurice's bass playing.  It's melodic and very idiosyncratic.  It is, however, very much a guitarist's idea of how to play bass, and secondarily very McCartney influenced.  He did an incredible job adopting the funk idiom on those mid '70s records.  That said, I can see why it was a little too out there for Barry once he decided to really perfect his craft in the studio and take it to another level.  I think everyone can agree that he had gone too far with that idea by the early '80s, but ya gotta admit, in '77-'79 Barry was on a hell of a roll in the studio, managing to make records that were clean, compelling AND incredibly complex.  (How did anyone make a hit out of "Everlasting Love"?  The hook goes on for, like, two minutes!)

Btw, Maurice pulls off a lovely Beach Boys tribute on his final album with the Bee Gees, called "Walking On Air."  Apparently, he got some props from Brian on it, which was a big deal to him.  Maurice was a major Beach Boys fan.

A few points Adam: I would agree with you that Maurice's problem with alcohol was a large part of why he didn't play the bass. Bear in mind also that in 75 and 76 Maurice was doing the falsetto live for "Nights on Broadway," but by the Spirits tour he had been replaced with female backup singers. Barry was really on fire in the late 70s/early 80s, lots of production work, lots of songwriting and he is apparantley a real perfectionist as you said and I remember reading he would do take after take after take of his lead and backing vocals in the studio. Maurice seemed to me to be the Dennis of the Bee Gees, lots of spirit and tons of talent and a fine singing voice, but not the "magical" voice of his brothers or a perfectionist by any means, also many substance abuse problems.

I'm surprised you don't care for Maurice's piano in the early days: to my mind he had a defining sound on "Words," "Lonely Days," "Run to Me" stuff like that. I totally agree with you that he fell victim to the synth mess of the 80s and never seemed to get out of that (I also like the Bee Gees last album as well, but I adore "Alone" most of all of their later work).

I know it has nothing to do with anything, but I just wanted to point out that in re-evaluating the Bee Gees work recently, I was struck by the quality of their voices: Robin's operatic tenor was always strong and never seemed to age, and whether he was singing mid-range or falsetto Barry always was spot-on. Maurice was always able to tie everything together harmonically, but in my mind Robin and Barry could be put up on the Carl and Brian pedestal where not that many others can stand. ESPECIALLY live (until they started to lip-sync). Sorry for derailing.

Thanks Adam for the MG info.  I remember seeing a segment on The Bee Gees on  ABC-TV's "20/20" news program (I think that's where I saw it anyhow) that included footage of them tracking "Tragedy" in the studio (with guide vocals, IIRC).  I noticed Maurice was playing the bass again on this session.  I had just assumed he switched from bass to rhythm guitar live due to typical rock star "laziness":  "It's kinda hard to sing & play bass at the same time, and we can afford to hire more sidemen now, so I'm gonna take the easy way".  Good to know the truth!

I like that idea that Maurice was the Dennis of the Bee Gees, though his political role was more like Carl's (with Barry as Brian and Robin as Mike, I suppose, though it doesn't really fit).  He actually has my favorite lead voice of the three, just a very plainspoken, everyman quality.  People also don't realize that on the harmony stack, his was the high voice, at least in the early days.

I absolutely agree that Maurice's keyboard playing in the early days was definitive; I just don't like it.  As is probably obvious, I had a little Bee Gees binge recently and I respect their early work more than I enjoy it (which doesn't mean there's nothing there I like -- I like a lot of it, particularly the weirder or more pop/soul songs, but the orchestral stuff that was their early hallmark leaves me cold).  I vastly prefer their '70s stuff, where Blue Weaver was on keys and Maurice was on bass.  There's a track on MR. NATURAL where they both play keyboards side by side and you can contrast their styles very readily there (I can't remember which one, but I think it's the last or second to the last track).  Maurice just liked big, thick pads and clunky piano sounds and it just lacks subtlety to me (though I do like it on "Lonely Days," which is a wonderfully sloppy performance).  Having said that, I consistently enjoy Maurice's solo turns on the early Bee Gees albums..."You Know It's For You," "Suddenly," "My Thing" -- wonderfully understated pop sensibilities.  It's just a matter of taste.

Robin Gibb really underwent a transformation in the early '80s (I credit his lesbian wife!).  Not only did he suddenly look a ton better and adopted a clothing and hair style that made sense for the era, but he figured out how to use that voice in a more appropriate way.  I find Robin's vocals nearly unlistenable at times prior to that...his Steve Marriott impression on "Paper Mache Cabbages and Kings" -- a song that rivals SMILEY SMILE for its weirdness -- is one of the worst lead vocals I've ever heard by a major band.  By contrast, his singing is a consistent highlight on the later Bee Gees albums...his vocals on a couple of the later singles, "When He's Gone" and especially "For Whom The Bell Tolls," are spine tingling.  Simply incredible.

A Bee Gees-Beach Boys comparison is instructive, because both bands had a very long life and were a great deal more inventive and versatile than they are given credit for.  The Bee Gees were capable of doing ANY kind of music...there are a few tracks on their last album that I mistook for Oasis...and the fact that such a candy-ass white boy band turned on a dime and made some of the finest funk-pop of the late '70s is simply unbelievable.  And the Bee Gees underwent similar periods when they were out of style as the Beach Boys did, though they handled it better, by turning to writing for other artists, a very canny move.  Both bands also worked their asses off.

And, of course, both bands had three brothers and were among the finest harmonists of their generation.  For vocal acrobatics and sheer skill and blend, I would say the Bee Gees were the clearly superior band, actually.  However, they lack the gritty bottom end to the harmonies provided by Dennis and Mike that give the Beach Boys' blend such emotional heft, and lacking the extra voices the Beach Boys could get into much more complex chords and voicings.  So it really is apples and oranges.  They also had very different approaches to music but there were odd similarities.  Both bands were uncomfortable making very personal lyrical statements, preferring to take on a supposedly audience-pleasing persona when speaking lyrically, but wound up making very emotional records that said a lot about who they were personally without really trying to.

Nice to be talking about The Bee Gees!

And nice to see someone bring up Mr. Natural, Adam! One of my all-time fave albums!

I'm not big on their orchestral stuff either, but side 4 of Odessa (especially First Of May into The British Opera) simply kills!!!!

Back to the original topic...

I have always believed that Carl being sick is the real reason that the mid-90s reunion didn't take. Maybe he knew already, and didn't think Brian could handle it? Or maybe his judgment was impaired?

Just something I've always wondered...

Carl was drinking heavy in the 1990's. Hell, I saw him polish off like 6-8 beers in 1.5 hours at a concert. He was real loose by the end of the show. The gene's are the thing. Buddy drank, Murry drank, Audree, Dennis, Brian and Carl. It was a tough family.

I also think Carl was sick earlier than we were told. Listen to both the Loreli and Paramount Theater shows from 1993. Carl is very very horse, a symptom of Lung Cancer. To be that horse several months apart makes no sense. He and Gina use to stay up late after shows and drink alot. I also think that Carl didnt stop smoking in 1985. I think it was later.

On a postive note, when Carl moved to Caribou ranch and was taking a break from the band, he use to drive down into Boulder and play with different groups in clubs, just for fun. He would show up and go at it. That would have been cool to see. I did get to see Carl here in Houston on his solo tour,in a small club. That was a thrill I wil never forget!

I'm pretty sure Carl had stopped smoking by 1984. Since I'm allergic to smoke, I notice when others are smoking nearby, and he didn't smoke around me (and he didn't know I was allergic). Ex-smokers do have backsliding episodes, so all I can say is that I never saw him smoking from 1984 on and this was on multiple occasions over a period of 13 years. The BBs, including Carl, eventually banned smoking backstage at concerts.

People also get hoarse from colds and viruses, so I don't think his being hoarse at Lorelei in '93 necessarily indicates a more serious illness. I saw the BB's Nov. '93 unplugged concert in Atlanta, and Carl was in fine voice there.

Adam is right about Carl having a hard time with the conservatorship battle in the early '90s. The whole business of Landy keeping Brian apart from the family was very painful for Carl, as was Dennis' loss. Add in chronic back pain, bouts of gout, weight gain, and the strain of trying to reconcile with his brother after the whole Landy business ended. This is enough to stress most people. Anyway, I didn't get the sense that Carl might be seriously ill until 1996, when I saw him walking from a distance and he just didn't look like himself.

I'm sick and tired of dwelling on Carl's demise. I wish he was still here, but he's not (at least physically). But these days, it seems like Carl and Dennnis have been reduced to obligatory footnotes in every news story about the BBs (died in 1983, died in 1998). Dennis and Carl meant a whole lot more to the band and the fans than that.

Here's a Carl tidbit -- a Delta pilot who was his guest at one show told me that Carl was an aviation fan and subscribed to Aviation Weekly. Not surprising considering that Hawthorne is an aerospace town, the airport is a few blocks from the Wilson home, and Carl's maternal grandfather was a pilot.

I have a Carl question. Did he make any kind of public remarks about the last few Beach Boys albums? I'm curios about his view on Summer In Paradise in particular. I remember seeing one interview clip of Carl from around the Still Cruisin'. The women interviewing him mentioned the fact that the group had a new album out. Carl rolls his eyes, gives the camera a fairly forced looking smile, and says "Yes...still cruisin' after all of these years". He made it rather ovious that he would have rather talked about something else.

On an unrelated note, am I the only Bee Gees fan in the world who does not like Barry's "falsetto"? in fact, I HATE it. It annoys me, and makes my ears hurt. Barry doesn't sing falsetto, he squeaks. It makes him sound like Mike Love with a sinus infection.

While I like some of the Bee Gees late 60s and 70s stuff-I agree that Barry Gibb's falsetto-especially live-always bugged me too.  Certainly no competition for Brian (in his prime)

That is interesting.  I am not as interested in Carl's biography (e.g. drug use etc.) as to his thoughts, likes, dislikes, etc.

My one observation is that he stepped back from the leadership (for whatever reasons) of the Beach Boys and results were not positive.  It is something that he never made any public comments on although it would have been normal to harbor some bitterness.

We know more than we would ever know about the relationship between Mike and Dennis and Mike and Brian but very little about the relationship between Mike and Carl (Did they like, respect and/or tolerate each other) even though that relationship was probably more important to the band than the Mike/Dennis drama fest.

I was gonna mention that very same interview (with the legendary Cathy McGowan IIRC).  That's the only "comment" I ever recall Carl making on the later stuff.  And yeah, the little chuckle spoke volumes I thought.

Carl remained the defacto "musical director" of the live band until he was too sick to tour anymore.  I think it's safe to say Mike had gradually assumed control of the "business" side of things, and after "Endless Summer", that increasingly included the live song selection (although it's important to point out that when Guercio entered the scene as manager, the entire band - including Dennis - were willing to add more hits back into the show to boost their appeal).  When "Kokomo" hit big, Mike's power natually increased, and Carl probably stopped trying to get much in the way of new stuff in (I'm sure it was a major feat getting the '93 "unplugged" set in), but he still ran the musical side of things as far as how the band sounded to the very end.  I remember when Carl sat out the '81 tour to do his solo thing, he said he "respected the hell out of Michael"'s role as the band's frontman, now that he knew what it was like.

I have read interviews from Al in semi-recent years stating that Carl was not necessarily in favor of the unplugged shows, or some of the rarer songs in general because he was of the opinion that the guys did not have the vocal chops to pull off some the more difficult material in later years and because he was still concerned about audience reaction.  These were comments made by Al during his Family and Friends years, stating that he originally disagreed with Carl,  but after hearing the songs sung by Al, Matt, Carnie and Wendy he agreed that the material was better served by younger voices...

I was told the same thing:  the unplugged tour was Al's idea, and Carl was initially skeptical.

I have to disagree with Carl (and Al's later opinion), Carl and Al absolutely nailed those unplugged shows. For the first time in a long time, the spotlight of most of the show was on them instead of Mike and they nailed it. As a BB fan, I want to hear the BB sing their songs!!! I don't want to hear a side man if the originals are on stage!  I'll go see a tribute band if I wanted that. I think Carl missed that  point in this case.

I think Carl came around on the unplugged tour idea when he saw how well it was received. Anyway, he seemed pretty positive about it when we talked to him after the Atlanta show. Al was very happy about the show's reception -- he seemed really pleased when I told him how much I enjoyed hearing them do "Vegetables" and "Add Some Music."

Carl, to me, is a real enigma. I've listened to The Beach Boys all my life, read every book and fanzine that crossed my path, yet I feel like I know next to nothing about the man behind the guitar and angelic voice.

That could have been very intentional. Some people just don't like their personal business out in the open.

Any footage of these unplugged shows out there??

The one and only time I ever saw The Beach Boys live was the 93 box set celebration show in the Capitol Records parking lot (the one with the trucked in sand and palm trees and Stamos) and I remember being thrilled with just how handsome and vibrant Carl looked and sounded. He played quite a few guitar solos too, managing to seriously rock out on Do It Again, I can distinctly recall having the almost otherworldly experience of watching Carl sing and then turning around and hearing (and feeling) his awesome voice echo through the city around us. We're talking gorgeous Los Angeles sunset time with THAT voice enveloping everything in it's beauty! Made me damn proud to be an LA boy (to be more exact: a Hawthorne boy) for once!

Carl: we miss you dearly!

Here ya go  ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrwz-D8Sz5Q

 It really is amazing when you compare how Carl looked in the early 90's compared to the mid 90's.  Apparently, multiple issues really took their toll on him.  But, I did hear Carl perform God Only Knows in 1994 and he sounded PERFECT!  It was hands down the highlight of the show.(Even better than John Stamos knocking part of his drum setup off the stage during Good Vibrations LOL!)

 On a side note, does anyone know what type of car Carl drove?

At one point he drove a Bentley (when he lived in L.A.) and later drove a Jeep when he lived in CO. You can see him sitting in the Jeep in the IJWMFTT feature.

Taught Carnie to drive in that Bentley, or so she says.

I'm gonna throw this out there, I think Carnie and Wendy saw Carl and Al as important father figures in their lives, based on quotes and actions etc. Things that Brian wasn't always able to do they sort of filled the void.

I was just wondering, is it known if Carl lived long enough to hear any new songs from Brian, that ended up on his Imagination album? I always thought it was sad that Carl didn't live to see his brother make a "comeback".  Especially since the conservatorship(is that the right word?) case supposedly hit Carl really hard.

 I know Brian said that he went to the piano and wrote "Lay Down Burden" as a response to finding out that Carl had cancer.  I assume that this would have been in the early part of 1997.  But there doesn't seem to be a lot of information on Brian and Carl's relationship during that final yerar other than that they watched the Super Bowl together.

 On another note, I wonder if Brian has ever actualy listened to Carl's music that came out after his death("I wish For You" and "Like A Brother")?  I think both of these song are quite powerful and beautiful.

Sorry, Brian's misremembering that - "Lay Down Burden" was a known title a good time before Carl's illness was announced*, plus the lyric is obviously directed at a former lover (not to mention being written by Joe Thomas).

[* - unless, of course, Brian was told of Carl's cancer when it was first diagnosed/suspected back in 1995/96, as is generally presumed by a lot of folk here]

Amazing how Uncle Dennis is tossed by the wayside, in spite of the fact that we used to take Carnie camping with us & stuff...

Had not heard that before Ed. I can imagine Dennis being the kind of who would love camping outdoors now that you mention it. Care to share more?

I thought I remembered there being a song written for Imagination with lyrics by Van Dyke Parks, that Carl was going to sing on, but that Carl was too sick and wasn't able to be on the track.  Does anyone remember this?

Not sure about VDP lyrics, but yes Carl was supposed to make a vocal appearance.  AGD probably knows the details...

Distinctly recall seeing an interview with Brian where he said he wanted Carl to sing with him on "Lay Down Burden", but he died before anything could be done.

Well, Carl certainly was around for the Paley sessions...

BTW...one other tidbit...someone told me that Carl always had bird legs and was embarrassed by them...

Curious....what album would have had "Sloop John B" in duophonic as its lead-off track???

According to the Peter Ames Carlin book, "Lay Down Burden" was supposed to be called "Portrait of a Man" with lyrics written by Van Dyke Parks. VDP could not finish the lyrics in time so they used the lyrics that ended up on Imagination. Also, apparently Carl was supposed to guest on Imagination.

I heard/read some time ago that Brian wrote LDB rather quickly one night during the making of imagination, and showed up in a day or two at the recording sessions with the song.

Absolutely my error, Dennis should have been included in that sentence for sure.  My apologies.

In the "Imagination" DVD Joe Thomas recounts that information only says it was for the song "Cry."