The Smiley Smile Message Board

Here is the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCabuis6t2w

anyone seen this yet? It's playing at a theater near where I live on Saturday. I'm going to check it out. In the trailer Brian plays California Girls with a Mellotron. Does anyone know if a Mellotron was used on California Girls? Was that not an organ?

Looks like a cool documentary. I always thought there was an "odd"/"mystical" sound in the backing track to California Girls in the left channel during the chorus. It sounds similar to strings, but not real strings. So maybe a Mellotron is on the record? I'm sure our experts here can shine light on the subject.  :)

Sounds really cool, you're lucky to have a chance to see it!  I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a Mellotron on "California Girls," the instrumentation in the chorus is so dense that it would be easy to miss/mistake for an organ.

Very misleading piece of film. The BB never used a Mellotron on any of their recordings, and I'm not convinced that any of the Chamberlin stuff they recorded was ever released. As the intro shows, a Mellotron was just a transplanted Chamberlin anyway, so why use one when the other is, literally, in your back yard ? The inference that Brian used a Mellotron on "CG" is on a par with the appalling editing that makes Macca attend the first night of Smile

As has been mentioned before, there's a Chamberlin on Country Air. But yes, that's a very misleading clip. Looks like a great film though.

McCartney did attend one of the SMiLE shows though right?

Yes. The fourth night.

..along with Sir George Martin.

We were sitting a few stalls in front of them in the RFH.

What a night...

I don't think the 'creative' editing in the doc really bothers me.

Agreed. I really don't care - the fact is that Paul went to one of the shows. The only thing that would have annoyed me is if Paul hadn't even attended any of the shows and they still showed him in the crowd.

Suppose a BB documentary was edited to imply that Mike Love was largely responsible for "Good Vibrations": would that bother you ?

Leaf was revising history for no better reason than cheap dramatic impact. I thought better of him than that... although, I freely grant, compared with the disproportionate amount of screen time afforded the vile smugness that was Loren Darro, it was no big thing

Well that's a little different - I mean a better example would be to say "imagine a documentary that implied Good Vibrations was recorded on a different day" (note: I know that GV was recorded over many sessions but I'm just giving an example!) or something like that. And it would be the same - while I'd RATHER it be accurate I realise that it's not all that important in the big scheme of things. I still enjoy the SMiLE Live DVD. In my opinion it's just not worth worrying about.

The 'mystical' sound: that is the magical reverb and echo of the L.A. Studios.

Me too.  Hope we didn't spoil their view!   ;D

I think it was more convenient for the film's sake. It would be silly to show the footage of Paul chronologically. It would kill the impact of the climax (Brian and the band completing "Good Vibrations"). Imagine going from that to 3 days later backstage with Paul McCartney. Not the best edit in the world.

So... honesty has no place then ? And you condone that ?

With all due respect, that's just putting words in my mouth Andrew. I simply meant that David probably wanted the film to end with the standing ovation and, editorially speaking, it was much easier to put the footage of Paul before that. Lots of documentary film makers create little "cheats" to further develop the story they want to tell. I don't see it as being dishonest; it was a creative decision. 

You and a whole lot of other people know that Paul and Sir George were there on the 4th night. A little tidbit like that should ruin the entire film for you.

For better or worse, Leaf chose the drama of the moment and the shape of the film over chronological accuracy. Documentary filmmakers often smudge ethical boundaries (http://www.centerforsocialmedia.org/resources/publications/honest_truths_documentary_filmmakers_on_ethical_challenges_in_their_work/), and it's accepted in the field as a kind of necessary evil.

As a print journalist, I find this dubious. But Leaf's movie was ultimately marketed as musical entertainment, not investigative journalism.

So, if I made a 'creative decision' in the next update of the ComGuide (if there is one) to credit all the Wilson/Love songs to just Love, that's acceptable in your view ?

You know me, you know my thing is to see history of The Beach Boys is documented as accurately as possible. That's why I've railed against Mike's mostly unfair credits as awarded in the 1994 lawsuit, just as, when someone slams Mike for the 'nuclear bomb' diss of "H&V" in 1967, I point out that it was Brian's idea and he was directing the cuz.

However, if accuracy, honesty and the correction of errors no longer has a place in the history of The Beach Boys, then fine. Just so long as I know.

I just wanted to say thanks Andrew for continually seeking the truth about The Beach Boys.

Could you please elaborate as to why you railed against the mostly unfair credits awarded to Mike?

Sure - because while some are probably justified, it just strikes me as odd that, after saying almost nothing for thirty-odd years, Mike suddenly has a brain spasm and recalls he co-wrote 79 songs with Brian (that's right, I said 79, because that's the number Mike stated in an interview from June 1993 printed in Mojo in 1995, thus: "MIKE LOVE: Listen, I didn't really want to sue Brian at all because I knew he was sick and I've been very understanding because of that. The facts are that I wrote words to 79 songs for which I didn't receive a credit let alone royalties."). That the number was reduced to 35 for the court case is something I find instructive, as is the fact that the vast majority of those songs was either a Top 40 hit or what we recognise as a classic and thus a compilation staple. I'm by nature a cynical so-and-so, but that was just astonishing.

That comes across as very pompous, as if it's a one-man crusade. Of course it's not, and many of my fellow travellers hang out here - you know who they are. Good people one and all.

Thanks Andrew.

i always found it odd mike had his "brain spasm" right after brian got the $10,000,000. i found that timing very odd indeed.

I can definitely see where you are coming from, Andrew. However, I find the analogy you used just a bit to the extreme. Again, I say that with all due respect for all the work you have done regarding the Beach Boys history of past and present.

I'll shut up now.   :)

I just got back from seeing the documentary. It was pretty good. The two Beach Boys songs that have Mellotron, according to the documentary, are Country Air and Add Some Music To Your Day. The filmmakers told a funny story about going to Brian's house to interview him. They brought a Mellotron to Brian's house so he could play it for the documentary and Brian thought it was gift. Also when Brian was asked to play the Mellotron, he would just press down with the palm of his hand. Brian's handlers hand to twist his arm to get him to play some actual chords.

Also, Brian mentions in the documentary that the Mellotron was not used as a replacement or substitute for string instruments. Brian said the Mellotron was used along with the strings to augment the sound.

Tracking sheets say Chamberlin, not Mellotron. I know it's a fine-ish distinction, even for someone as famously picky as me, but although they have a common origin, a Chamberlin isn't a Mellotron, just as a chimp isn't a gorilla. Check this out:

http://www.mellotron.com/history.htm (http://www.mellotron.com/history.htm)

A quick check of your site AGD shows that the bulk of co credits Mike sued for were from the "Surfer Girl", "Christmas", "All Summer Long" and "Summer Days!(And Summer Nights)" lps. Lyrically I don't see it much of a stretch that Mike wrote the words for songs such as Hawaii and Dance, Dance, Dance etc... Everyone who was there acknowledges the lyrics for California Girls came from Mike. Can you give some examples of which tunes you feel he shouldn't have received a credit on? I personally feel the attempts he made to get his name on as much Pet Sounds stuff as he did to be somewhat alarming. Also whenever I now see the credits Wilson-Usher-Love on a song they seem a little suspect to my eyes.  What really feels Twilight Zone to me is WHY MIKE SAT BACK FOR OVER 30 YEARS BEFORE SUDDENLY REMEMBERING THAT HE WROTE ALL THESE SONGS? They did print composer credits on record sleeves back in the '60's right?

Exactly, although he used to say that when he tackled Brian about it back in the day, Brian would say he'd talk to Murry about it. As. If.

To play Devil's Advocate here, Mike's contributions to the Wilson-Usher and Wilson-Asher songs that he claims to have contributed to were add-ons and revisions, made after the inital songwriting was done, but nonethess essential "hooks" in his opinion, and therefore worthy of co-credit.  For "409" he claims to have added the "She's so fine, my 409" and "Giddy-up, giddy-up 4-0-9" lines.  The two "Pet Sounds" songs Mike claimed a cowrite for are "Wouldn't It Be Nice", for which he says his contribution was the "Good night, oh-oh baby, Sleep tight, oh-oh baby" tag (added at the actual studio vocal session), and "I Know There's An Answer", for which he claims the revised title (from the original "Hang On To Your Ego"), and a few revised words therein.  My opinion?  Mike deserves a portion of the credit and royalties, but on a basis proportionate to his contributions (and it might have played out that way had Brian's advisors accepted a proposed settlement, instead of insisting on going the distance, and ultimately losing, which resulted in a much higher royalty rate being awarded to Mike for these songs and the others he laid partial claim to).

There's supposedly a bit of actual Mellotron on "I Wanna Pick You Up" and Dennis' "School Girl", unless it's a Chamberlain mis-labeled as Mellotron on the track sheets.

No argument here - memory might be shaky here, but I recall that Mike's team was happy to settle out of court for a flat $750,000, credit and future royalties, but Brian's management said nope, see you in court.

Now, much as I respect Brian's unassailable genius as a musician, if you're going into a court of law and your #1 defence witness is Brian Wilson, well... might as well lay down in the corridor and say "OK, rape me now !": what the F*** were they thinking of ??!?

Yeah, I agree...I've been as critical of Mike's songwriting credit grab as anyone, for reasons I've spelled out in great detail elsewhere...but the fact is Mike was certainly owed credit for "California Girls", I definitely buy him as lyricist on "Dance Dance Dance" (putting Carl's name on and leaving Mike off strikes me as a too-cute move from Murry) and I can easily believe he changed already completed songs in the studio in other cases (whether or not that merits a songwriting credit depends largely on one's own perspective.  It rubs me personally the wrong way based on my own admitted experience and biases), so the guy was due something at least.  Brian's team has its share of blame to take for the situation working out as it did.

It is also interesting that Usher (1990) and Christian (1991) had both died fairly recently before the lawsuit, so for the songs that they co-wrote, they could not defend what was written.

Maybe it's....(dum, dum, dummmm) CONSPIRACY? Great, now we can add 'murderer' to the long list of Mike's faults  ;)        Although to be fair, he's already portrayed as such by some people....

I'm pretty sure Mike laid no claim whatsoever to any Wilson/Christian songs.  And not many of the Wilson/Usher songs (in fact, "409" might be the only one).

I don't recall the film actually stating that Macca attended the opening night. It is implied of course, by the way the film is edited....now....everyone of us knows Paul McCartney attended at a slightly later date....to the rest of the world, it probably doesn't matter. AGD no doubt has a note of when Paul and any other luminaries actually attended so the facts will not be lost to posterity.



Next somebody will point out that Pet Sounds Live in London isn't culled from just one show...

No Wilson/Christian, three Wilson/Usher

Chug-A-Lug (B. Wilson/Usher/Love*)
409 (B. Wilson/Usher/Love*) - compilation perennial
Farmer's Daughter (B. Wilson/Love*)
Shut Down (B. Wilson/Usher/Love*) - compilation perennial/Top 30
Noble Surfer (B. Wilson/Love*)
Finders Keepers (B. Wilson/Love*)
Hawaii (B. Wilson/Love*)
Be True To Your School (B. Wilson/Love*) - compilation perennial/Top 10
I Get Around (B. Wilson/Love*) - compilation perennial/#1
All Summer Long* (B. Wilson/Love*) - compilation perennial
Wendy (B. Wilson/Love*) -compilation perennial/Top 50
Do You Remember ? (B. Wilson/Love*)
Drive-In (B. Wilson/Love*)
Don't Back Down (B. Wilson/Love*)
Little Saint Nick* (B. Wilson/Love*) - compilation perennial/Xmas Top 5
The Man With All The Toys (B. Wilson/Love*) - Xmas Top 5
Santa's Beard (B. Wilson/Love*)
Merry Christmas, Baby (B. Wilson/Love*)
Good To My Baby (B. Wilson/Love*)
Don't Hurt My Little Sister (B. Wilson/Love*)
When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) (B. Wilson/Love*) - compilation perennial/Top 10
Help Me, R(h)onda (B. Wilson/Love*) - compilation perennial/#1
Dance, Dance, Dance (B. Wilson/C. Wilson/Love*) - compilation perennial/Top 10
Please Let Me Wonder (B. Wilson/Love*) - compilation perennial
Kiss Me Baby (B. Wilson/Love*)
She Knows Me Too Well (B. Wilson/Love*)
In The Back Of My Mind (B. Wilson/Love*)
The Girl From New York City (B. Wilson/Love*)
Amusement Parks USA (B. Wilson/Love*)
Salt Lake City (B. Wilson/Love*)
California Girls (B. Wilson/Love*) - compilation perennial/Top 5, no argument here
Let Him Run Wild (B. Wilson/Love*) compilation perennial
You're So Good To Me (B. Wilson/Love*) compilation perennial
Wouldn't It Be Nice (B. Wilson/Asher/Love*) - compilation perennial/Top 10
I Know There's An Answer (B. Wilson/Asher/Sachen/Love*)
Hang On To Your Ego (B. Wilson/Asher/Love*)

Question - anyone else find it odd he claimed to have contributed to "Let Him Run Wild", but not "The Little Girl I Once Knew" ? They're pretty much of a piece.

Brian was a horrible witness in the trial, so Mike didn't have much of an opponent.  Who on Brian's team made the decision that it would go to trial and not be settled for $750,000?

I'm willing to bet money that Mike Love had to give a deposition before the case went to trial.  It would be one interesting read if someone could post the deposition transcript on this board.

I've got no proof, but from what I've been told by, ah, certain folk, I think we could all make a most reasonable guess.

You mean Brian didn't have multiple costume changes while he performed Pet Sounds live in London? :P

Brian opened "SMiLE" on 2/20/04 and premiered it for three straight days.  After a day off (2/23) McCartney and George Martin were at the show on the 24th.  This was the 4th of six shows that premiered "SMiLE" at the RFH.

Just my opinion, but the "Little Girl I Once Knew" lyrics sound a lot like Brian...his lyrics are often simple and to-the-point, and terrific for that matter.

Which show was originally the final date, until they had to add two more when the four announced shows sold out in under an hour.


The bit that never fails to crack me up is where his shirt changes not merely in mid-song but in mid-sentence !!  That said, the audio on this DVD just blows away the sterile CD.

Nothing quite like the sound of the Mellotron.
And I couldn't help but associate it with my other favorite band right after(if not equal to the BB's)and that is Genesis.
Tony Banks put the Mellotron to dramatic use. Especially the intro to "Watcher Of The Skies".
Very warm instrument.

Big Bri

Cool, my second favorite band is Genesis too! :D

Thirded!  Genesis are my second favorite band as well.  Tony Banks is amazing.  A Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering are my two all-time favs.  The mellotron was a very important element to their early sound.

I have the Mellodrama movie sitting at home right now...been waiting for a good lazy afternoon to give it a spin.  Wouldn't be great if Brian had played "Country Air" instead of "California Girls"?  Wouldn't put it past him...he's done more artistically shocking things when least expected.  Judging from the account the filmmakers had, sounds like he was just having an off day.

I'm glad the conversation is returning to the Mellotron. Not sure how this all turned into who sued who?

Tony Banks from Genesis is interviewed in the film as well as Mike Pinder from the Moody Blues and Ian McDonald from King Crimson.

Sorry Heywood.

Mike has said that he sued when he did because his testifying for Brian in Brian's suit against Almo led to him finding out that he could still press for his long ignored rights too. Before that he claims Brian kept blowing him off when he would bring it up to Brian and Brian sort of dodged it by blaming it on Murry. I think Brian gets off easy in this because he knew Mike deserved credit and he signed the publishing forms that did not show Mike as a co-author.

Mike has said Brian wanted to settle but it was Brian's conservator that was responsible for not taking Mike's extremely generous and low ball settlement offer. If it was Brian who was sued by Mike or was it Almo or both?

Cam, remind me who Brian's conservator was in the mid-90s again...  ::)

Actually, wasn't it Jerome Billet? I didn't think Ms. Ledbetter got conservatorship until she became Mrs. Wilson.

According to a Mojo article from 2004 (http://brianwilsonfans.com/a_ml.php)

Mike, in the article: "Well, ironically, my cousin Brian wanted to settle the issue but he was unable to because he was in a consevatorship due to his mental state. The conservator was a lawyer who said that the statute of limitations had expired. That's what Brian was told, so that's the course he had to follow. "

And the ever-popular firsthand account of the trial: http://cabinessence.net/essays/lovevwilson1.html

Stegibo and gsmile:
   Check these out:
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXBJdF9npgA&feature=related   "Dancing With The Moonlit Knight"

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix73z5Eg_oM&feature=related    "Watcher........"

What a great instrument! 

 Bri

"Watcher of the Skies" is rocking and all, but King Crimson always gets short changed in a genre they basically kicked off. They're like the Beach Boys--influential and yet they have many albums that were not commercially popular at all. The best use of the mellotron, in my opinion, comes from their first album.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KovJ7WLh2Qc

Listen to that!

Nice!  And why not just combine King Crimson with Genesis and come up w/this Classic line-up!

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNYI_M9C0tw

 John Wetton, Steve Hackett, Chester Thompson.

 Bri

Also, see this issue of Billboard from 95.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ag4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=%22Jerome+Billet%22+%22Brian+Wilson%22&source=bl&ots=2YHjVmWkQ-&sig=9ntMsTIKeUoO0nnBAKzQSj_KXl0&hl=en&ei=blX9S4OEMYS0lQe87-ibCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Jerome%20Billet%22%20%22Brian%20Wilson%22&f=false

BW and Melinda sued Billet over the lawsuit fiasco that year, basically claiming that the entire thing was an attempt to bilk Brian. (According to the article, Billet was officially conservator from March 9, 1992 to June 22, 1995.)

I know I'm a little late to the party on this one but want to add after only getting into them a couple of months ago Genesis have rapidly became my favourite band second only to The Beach Boys. I just got "...and Then There Were 3" in the post today and am really enjoying it. Each post Gabriel album I buy I expect to suck but they still had it at this point. Is it worth checking anything out from Duke era onwards? In other words can someone tell me when exactly did Genesis turn into crap Phil Collins solo territory?

Here's my take on Genesis. From about 1968 until roughly 1977 or so, Genesis were 100% progressive rock. Yes, even on the first two post-Gabriel albums. Of course, with ...And Then There Were Three, the band's going in more of a pop direction but there's still a lot of musical invention going on. Abacab from 1981 is a great one. Even Invisible Touch has its moments. The problem is that after 1983 or so, Genesis and Phil Collins' solo music seem almost inseparable; indeed, I'm hard-pressed to find much of a difference between the two from that period until 1991. I personally find We Can't Dance unlistenable. Calling All Stations was good for what it was, of course, back in 1997 even the hardcore Genesis fans couldn't get into it. Time's been kinder to it in recent memory.

Genesis, in the 1980s anyway, went heavily into an 80s pop direction, and that didn't seem to mesh too well with their image. It worked well when the Moody Blues went for the MTV Generation jugular because even their classic material had a pop sensibility to it.

My first impression when I heard Wind and Wuthering was how closely Phil Collins followed Gabriel's style of singing. The phrasing and such is near identical. If it wasn't for that one power ballad stinkfest that made it onto the finished record this would probably be my favourite Genesis album. For it's follow up I thought they'd be doomed without Hackett but they combated this by pushing Tony Banks amazing keyboard work even futher to the forefront and the results are mostly excellent. Maybe I'll give Duke and Abacab a try after all...

Ugh...prog rock... :-\ :-\ :-\   Thank goodness for the Ramones!!!

I think Genesis are pretentiously, c*ck-suckingly awful, whatever the period.  There Must Be Some Unserstanding was inspired by Sail on Sailor, however...

Ah yes the Ramones. Any self respecting music fan knows DeeDee Ramone played the sort of basslines Mike Rutherford can only dream about, whilst each and every night Phill Collins cries himself to sleep wishing he could master 4/4 time like Tommy could....    :p

Good, enjoyable rock music doesn't have to be about sophistication.

I get 100 times more pumped up over a simple 3-4 chord Ramones song than I do a 20 minute suite about middle earth.

Very true.  But it also does not have to be about a lack of sophistication.

Nice comeback!! ;D ;D