The Smiley Smile Message Board

Let's say we could get in a time machine and alter the course of BB history... what mistakes would we avoid? Kick Murry out as manager a little earlier? Get Bri some psychological help after his first breakdown? Insist on promoting Pet Sounds? Give Good Vibes a better follow up than "Then I Kissed Her?" Get rid of those friggin' striped shirts? Have Bri go solo after Pet Sounds? There were so many things that just sh*t-canned the BB's image and career, what could have been avoided?

I wouldn't change a thing until Endless Summer.

Smile should've been released in the 60s no matter what, even if it would've taken Brian a whole extra year. They should've given him all the time he needed and not bother him with time scedules and bullsh*t about messing with the formula.

Old post from me, from the old board:

if only it were this easy...   

I think that's one of the first things I would change. Maybe not very much else until "ES" like Ian already said...

Yep, that just about sums it up, how about you doing an essay centering on these thoughts?

Regardless of what Loren Darg and Michael Vosse say, I would've kept the LSD away from Brian in the 1960's and the cocaine away from him in the 1970's...

The stripes are cool. Their "hip" clothing on 20/20 looks silly.

I know the situation was a little more complicated, but I wonder what would've happened if all everyone around him would've been totally supportive no matter what, and told him that he could take all the time he needed.

It wouldn't measure up to your SMiLE essay!

He saves his own posts, everyone.

I don't think I'd change anything either.  It's up to the people involved to take responsibility for their situation.

No way, just found it looking for stuff cached on Google.

I would've gone back to 1983 and stopped Dennis from "recovering" his belongings from the dock.

Ahhh, good one!

Let's just say I would have stopped a lot  of things  ::)

I would have gone back and mentored either Buddy Wilson or Murry, shown them all kinds of unconditional love and been a good example to them.

It's a little complicated to go back and list all the things I'd change in the 60's, 70's and 80's.  But if I could go back and change things in the 90's, I would:

1) Have had Al not make any unusual requests in his 1998 non-exclusive Beach Boys license application, and would have had him been accepted for a Beach Boys touring license.  Unfortunately, it is way too late to turn back the clock on that one.

2) Have had the band perform "Island Fever" or "Under The Boardwalk" on Baywatch instead of "Summer Of Love".  I still can't believe they chose that song to perform on the most watched TV show in the world back then.  It's interesting to note that it didn't chart anywhere!!!

3) Have postponed Stars & Stripes for a year in favor of an album of songs from the Paley sessions in 1996.  I would have also had "Sail On Sailor" and "In My Room" (with Rodney Crowell & Tammy Wynette) on Stars & Stripes.

4) Have given the cheerleaders the boot after the first show!!  Thank goodness Mike hasn't brought them back!  That was a total embarassment.

Good vibes,
Eric

I wish Brian could have laid off the cigarettes in the 1970s, among other things.

I wish Chuck Britz had run back-up tape on every session in the 1960s.

I wish "Trombone Dixie" and "Sandy, She Needs Me" had been completed.

I wish Brian had used an outside lyricist on Love You (that'll draw some fire).

I wish Brian had recorded elaborate piano demos with guide vocals throughout the Fall/Winter of '66 and the Winter/Spring of '67 and built the album from those.

I wish Bamboo, SMiLE, and the '96 album had been completed.  I wish Summer In Paradise, Sweet Insanity, and Stars And Stripes had not.

I wish Brian, Marilyn, and the others had gotten a fraction of the happiness they deserved.

How about Carl laying off the cigarettes?

Yes, I thought about adding that but didn't want to start a big debate about the cause or nature of his cancer.  It still worries me in Brian's case.  I don't know how heavy a smoker Carl ever actually was, but  his voice certainly aged better than Brian's and Dennis'.

Who was a heavier smoker, Brian or Carl?  ??? I know Brian smoked like 4 or 5 packs a day. As for Carl, dunno...

1) I wouldn't have fired Nick Grillo as manager.
2). I would've gotten Landy away from Brian a lot sooner, or get some other kind of help for Brian instead.
3). Make sure most of the Caribou tapes from 74 didn't get destroyed by fire.
4). Take photographic evidence of every session Carol Kaye ever played on, to avoid future trouble.... ;)

Good call.

Actually, I would amend that to a more simple "Take a lot of photos of Beach Boys recording sessions so obsessed fans could feel good for a few moments in the future when they look at them."

YES!!!

Of all the amazing things in Brian's life - and there are many - one of the most amazing is that after all of the cocaine, cigarettes, and time spent vegetating in bed, Brian at one time (1987-88) was actually running 5-6 miles per day.  It was incredible to see then and it's still incredible when I think about it today...

That's a good point.  Brian was once athletic enough to have been a high school quarterback; I hope he's still physically active to some appropriate degree.

Talking about things that should have gone differently from 1961-1998, anything regarding saving Dennis or Carl so far outweighs everything else that those seem like virtually a different discussion to me.  I wish they could all have had health, happiness, successful marriages and healthy, happy children far more than any additional artistic success.  But God and the devil are both in the details, and the story of the Beach Boys proves that repeatedly.

Blunders that weren't:

I'm glad they didn't give "Good Vibrations" to the other Wilson (the late Mr. Pickett) or "Don't Worry, Baby" to the Ronettes.


I had thought about adding that just for you, aeijtzsche, but didn't because, as I said earlier, I think a lot of those photos were taken and we'll have them some fine day.

Brian still runs every day. Like a ritual. Everytime an interviewer asked him what he does on a normal day, jogging was about his first answer. Of course I don´t know how far or fast...

I'd have stepped back further than that. That was just the end result of the inner turmoil that was his life leading up to that fateful dive. It that didn't happen, some thing equally as tragic would have. Just the question of how it would have been played out.

I think it was Dennis's fate to die young. If he wouldn't have drowned in 1983, he probably would've found another way.

Reminds me of a lyric sung by Lyle Lovett...............

"If I were the man you wanted, I would not be the man that I am"

Perfect thread, people!!! I will take time to ponder what my post will be...it's very deep.

I will ask this, have Any of the BB's ever been quoted about where they were when Lennon was asassinated??

If I had my way, I would most definately go back and stop Endless Summer from being released.  While they were'nt having tons of commercial success, the boys were at least still making an attempt to progress and make new music.  After Endless Summer and its massive appeal/success, it was almost as if they gave up.  It's nice that the album turned a new generation on to those great timeless tunes but it ruined the band.  There were still some flasshes of brilliance, but it would never be the same.

IF I HAD MY WAY...I'D HAVE THE BEACH BOYS KEEP
 PUSHING THE ENVELOPE AND SHOW UP
AT THE AMAERICAN MUSIC AWARDS AND ING SURFIN
 USA CALIFORNIA GIRLS GOOD VIBES WONDERFUL THIS WHOLE W
ORLD ROCK N RIOLL TO TRHE BREDSI-R[ U]LP DBH=0 YUQW

THEN DESTROY THEIR INSTRUMENTS IN ONE FELL SWOOP OPF PISSED OFFNESS

SCREW YOU ACADEMY!!!!!!!!
BEACH BOYS WITHOUT DENNIS REALLY BIT HARD!!!!!!!

Ignore me. I was dropped on my head at birth

But wouldn't that kind of be another blunder?

I don't even read what he writes anymore.

When Brian cancelled out on the Monteray Pop Festival

According to Stephen Desper, they backed out because Monterey was a Coca-Cola-sponsored event and the Boys (led by Mike, I believe) didn't want to be affilated with/promote unhealthy products like that.

They dropped out over THAT?!

Cause as we all know, none of the Beach Boys would ever have even considered consuming any unhealthy products.

Would Brain have even played the Monterey Pop Festival, even if the Beach Boys were playing? Probably not, I'm thinking.

He was on stage in Hawaii.

1.) Write less songs in the years before 1965 with surfing or car themes.  Not to have been so pigeon-holed with the surf image.

2.) Have all round better image advice from the start, regarding album cover design, clothes etc.  (Compare BBs presentation in these spheres to that of the Beatles).

3.) Smile to have been completed and released in 66/67.

4.) Whatever it was that prevented the completion and release of Smile to never have happened.

5.) Whatever it was that made Brian become so ill to never have happened.

 :)  I would have done the following:

1.  I would have been the hitchhiker that Dennis would have picked up on the highway a couple of miles uproad, he definitely would have had NO reason to pick up the 2 manson girls  ;)
2.  Taken the smokes away from Carl about 1 day after he started smoking \
3.  Would have seen that Brian was under stress and begged him not to go on tour until he got some help for his anxiety.
4.  Smile would have went to album
5.  Murry would have gone to some parenting classes

-keep Mike Love out of the picture during the Redwood days
-sign Redwood to Brother Records
-get a collaborator for Brian on 15 Big Ones, as apposed to the covers
-change 15 big ones cover
-keep jack riley as manager
-get the Love relatives out as manager and all that
-get brian to put Guess i'm dumb on Today! rather than Bull Session
-release better b-sides (little girl i once knew to wild honey) (except for singles on Pet Sounds and the GV single)
-keep Mike love in Rishikesh for longer period.
-keep 1974' tapes in a fire-safe container
-release California Feeling on LA
-make Holland a little less serious...
-shorten So Tough to at least a 10 song album
-release a better rarities comp in the early 80s!  :lol

I'm in the vast minority in that I'm not apologetic for loving the surf/car era Beach Boys. I prefer that much more to the post-Smile stuff, although I wince at how it was dragged through the mud and devalued from the mid-70's on. But hey, the same thing has happened with Marilyn Monroe, James Dean and '57 Chevys- the first reaction is to go "ugh" but when you take a step back and try to view them in their original context you can better understand all the hub-bub.

I'm just not that big a fan of a Beach Boys that didn't have Brian at the helm. Just like I'm not that big a fan of a Beatles that had McCartney at the helm. Sure there were some good songs still, but overall the impact as a band was diluted.

Anyway, that said as a prefix in my probably controversial  opinion, I would have the Beach Boys come to an amicable parting over the Smile stuff. Perhaps that would've allowed Brian the space to become a producer, the tour with the Marahrishi wouldn't have happened and countless lawsuits would've been avoided. Perhaps everyone would've worked out their intra-personal junk, Carl would've been free to do his thing much earlier, Dennis might still be alive and the prospect of a reunion would be simply to revisit some good times and some great tunes.

Who knows? This sort of thing is always difficult to second guess. If this had happened things could've turned out just as bad, or worse.

Dean

when carl was put into the producers chair, should he had more practice? let alone, what about his solo stuff, why are they looked sadly upon?

Just speaking for myself, I'm not a huge fan of a lot of music from the late 60's-mid 70's so it's hard to separate what happened with the Beach Boys sound. Obviously the sans Brian version was trying hard to have hits, so it adopted much of the sonic and artistic qualities the era represents. As much as I love Pet Sounds and appreciate Sgt. Peppers, the monsters they created in the music world are sometimes painful. Suddenly rock n' roll became "rock" and had a lot of high art aspirations and everyone who picked up a guitar and wanted some sort of cred needed to have something important to say either lyrically or musically. For me, sometimes this works-  Pet Sounds, Smile as two examples and most of the time it doesn't. While I understand musician's can't go around repeating themselves endlessly without becoming a parody of their former selves (mid-70's Beach Boys,  or the Ramones anyone?) I just tend to respond more to rock n' roll as opposed to "Rock" and as a consequence, most of my favorite bands are the ones that made maybe 2 or 3 records before calling it a day.
 
I know there are a lot of people who love Carl Wilson's voice from that period, but I must sheepishly admit that I'm not one of them. When he was singing straight, it was cool, but when he tried to go for the soul thing to me it just sounds like a white guy straining his voice and singing out of his musical range. Wild honey is painful to listen to for me, even though I like the song itself well enough- it sounds like it's about a key higher than Carl can comfortably sing. Again, some folks love it and thats fine with me.

But in risking blasphemy, I just think that the Beach Boys with Brian Wilson at the peak of his powers are greater than the sum of it's parts. If Brian would've gone away to college and Murry only left Carl and Dennis the grocery money, it 'prolly would've just bought groceries. If they had started a band without Brian, I just don't see them ever getting out of the garage or the local battle of the bands.  With most of the Carl-led recordings, there is just an underlying vibe of despiration and uneasiness, like they were in over their heads and trying hard to figure out which way is up. I don't think they ever made it so they retreated to safe territory and created a more cartoony, less valid version of their early-60's selves. Again, just my opinion I know plenty of others around here completely disagree.

Dean

I can only speak for my own experience. With triumphs like "Long Promised Road", "Feel Flows" and "The Trader" behind him (heck, even "Angel Come Home" and "Full Sail" are pretty strong), I eagerly purchased Carl's first album when it came out. I found it disappointingly bland with little melodic invention and uninspired production. Basically, sub-Christopher Cross material. Say what you want about Brian's solo work, but he never delivered anything as dull as Carl's debut. I admit that I never purchased the follow-up "Youngblood" which many claim is better, but such was the effect of hearing that debut...

Yeah, Carl's debut solo album would be a blunder in my book and, by that point, he definitely had a great deal of production experience.

Carl's solo albums might have been weak (though I still love Heaven and a couple of the other ballads--the kind of music he was striving to turn away from), but I wouldn't categorize them as blunders. It was important for him to make the break from the group at the time, and I loved seeing him play solo.

As for blunders, Sir Rob pretty much read my mind w/ his list, from the problems with the image-making to Monterey to not releasing Smile.

And as for how much Carl smoked, years ago (I'd say in the early 70s or late 60s) I read that he smoked 2 packs a day, at least then. Amazing that he could sing the way he did, isn't it, given that habit?

Just to clarify - though I said that I wished The Beach Boys did less surf/car material in the early days I didn't mean to imply I didn't like the music.  On the contrary, I'm with you - I'm a 62-67 man!  I just think the subject matter of the songs and the image of the band could have been less 'surf and car' specific, if you take my meaning.  Maybe not quite as many songs with a car and surf theme.  Of course, I understand the commercial pressures of the time that dictated all of this.

Yes, I'm totally with you on how the early catalogue has been demeaned and devalued by the oldies act touring and image.

I salute voxnut for having the courage to speak out about Carls vocals on Wild Honey.

Not my favorite Carl material.  Does sound a bit strained in places.   He rocks on Youngblood without sounding so strained........although that might be attributed to maturity.....

Roger,
      I agree with your assessment. What was disappointing to me was the fact that Carl LEFT THE BEACH BOYS to record his solo albums. And among the various reasons for leaving was the desire to take a step AWAY from Beach Boys' music and explore some different types of music. He obviously didn't do this enough.

Brian's solo stuff is only marginally better than Youngblood IMO. Brian left the Beach Boys for some of the same reasons as Carl - to step outside of The Beach Boys' circle and create HIS music. After releasing Brian Wilson 1988, Imagination, and Getting In Over My Head, I just have to say - HE LEFT THE BEACH BOYS TO DO THAT?

"Brian's solo stuff is only marginally better than Youngblood IMO. Brian left the Beach Boys for some of the same reasons as Carl - to step outside of The Beach Boys' circle and create HIS music. After releasing Brian Wilson 1988, Imagination, and Getting In Over My Head, I just have to say - HE LEFT THE BEACH BOYS TO DO THAT?"

Yeah, I mean coming off the heels of such stellar Beach Boys releases like L.A. and Keepin' The Summer Alive, what was he thinkin'?!  ;)

Seriously, in 1988 Landy was kind of the puppetmaster behind that, wasn't he? Wasn't it at the height of control and isolation from family and friends?

I would imagine that by the time the other two CDs came down the pike the working relationship with the Beach Boys was stressful enough to merit just doing his own thing -with gentle coaxing of course. Plus I think doing GIOMH was a good idea to legitimize the Brian Wilson band by giving them something original to work and put their stamp on rather than nailing what was laid down before, even if the results are uneven. All said, I can only imagine it must've been a much emotionally easier recording experience for him than anything done with the BB's from at least Sunflower-on. Considering that I don't think any recording artist has been consistently great over a 30+ year period, there is a lot to be said for Brian just doin' his thing. Much like the Stones from a song standpoint, I think most folks are going to be more interested in what he's done already than what he's doing now -Smile excepted, and even now that is in the "done" column.

As usual, this is just my opinion- feel free to disagree at will with nary a protest from me.

Dean

No disagreements here, Dean. Just some more thinking out loud...

Yes, Landy was absolutely "pulling the strings" from 1983-1991, but I still have some unanswered questions about that time frame.

Why did Brian really go solo in that period? I followed BW/BB's very closely during those years and I'm still scratching my head. In 1985, Brian was a Beach Boy, recording the Beach Boys 1985 album, doing a fairly prominent vocal on "Getcha Back", and appearing with the group at Live Aid.

In 1986, he records "Rock And Roll To The Rescue" with The Beach Boys, and in 1987, does the same with "California Dreaming", complete with videos.

In 1988, Brian releases a solo album (which he doesn't really produce), and you figure he's going to pursue the solo thing for awhile. But, no, after missing out on "Kokomo", he returns to the group to film a TV series, and he contributes a song to the Beach Boys 1989 album, Still Cruisin'.

So now, Brian's back with The Beach Boys, right? No, he records Sweet Insanity as a solo project, but he can't get a record company to release it. Now what? The Beach Boys get a deal to record Summer In Paradise, Landy is being pushed out, so you figure Brian will return to The Beach Boys. No, Summer In Paradise is released with no Brian.

Now for the most confusing part. You figure since Brian sat out Summer In Paradise, the first Beach Boys' album that he had nothing to do with, that Brian was finished with The Beach Boys. But in 1996, Stars And Stripes is released, and guess who is listed as one of the producers - Brian Wilson! The accompanying documentary features Brian and Mike getting along splendidly, and Brian even joins the group on a couple of videos and TV shows to promote the album.

So Brian's back in the group, right? Wrong. It's 1997, and Imagination is released as a solo Brian Wilson album. So I guess he's a solo artist again.

And that's pretty much how it's been since then. Brian's marriage to Melinda clouds the water even more.

Can anybody make any sense out of this?

That's a good question [*i.e., what happened in the late eighties?] that hasn't been fully answered as far as I know.  As someone who had an eye on them throughout that period, here's what I recall from the time, off the top of my head:

They were in the news a lot in the mid to late eighties- "Getcha Back" and "Kokomo" happened, Brian appeared in the video for (and  I think also sang on) the Wall Of Voodoo cover of "Do It Again", Brian's first-ever solo album got a lot of attention through numerous delays in its release, and of course SMiLE was announced for the umpteenth time.

Brian was said to have been annoyed that he wasn't called for "Kokomo".  Although the interminable delay in releasing Pet Sounds on CD was apparently blamed to some degree on Dennis' estate, it seems that Landy was holding out big time for an executive producer title, which would have added to the impressive list of sixties recordings he wasn't present for, but produced (see: "Eve Of Destruction").  In a 1988 (or early '89) Rolling Stone interview, Brian stopped to call Landy and ask his permission to remove a picture of the Beach Boys from a wall of his house- it was bothering him.  In a 1989 television interview that a friend taped and showed me later, Mike was asked about "Kokomo" 's success the previous year and at the end of his response, smiled at the camera and added "Meanwhile, Brian's album came out and laid a great big turkey egg."

So there was something goin on between Brian's camp and the band around then, for sure.  Yet Brian was onstage with them when I saw them in Tampa, Florida on July 4, 1987.

My personal theory, then and now, was that it was a Landy thing.  Not to oversimplify, but I think that in his bid for total control of Brian he chased the family and the band far away and probably made their business dealing pretty unpleasant, too.  And then think about what he was probably feeding Brian about the other guys....

I think Melinda was the decisive break with The Beach Boys in the late 90s.  Before that, I think a gradual disaffection with the group was taking place partly influenced by Landy.  To be perfectly honest, I think Brian's separation from the group has been good for him and good for us as fans.  Mike's 'turkey' quote says it all.  BW88 was far superior to anything that the fag end of The Beach Boys career had to offer, as has Brian's solo offerings in general in my opinion, and I think it's only BB sentimentalism that says otherwise.  My view is that the group just dragged Brian down.  If Melinda never happened and he'd remained with them I think we'd still be seeing him demeaning his talent and status in dumb nostalgia projects with the likes of Status Quo, rather than things like touring PS and Smile and releasing a version of Smile.  People seem to take these things for granted now but a few years before they could only have dreamt of them.

Meant to modify but ended up quoting here!  No 'delete' option available, so I've just deleted the text which was the modified post above.  Oh dear... 

Apart from Carl's decision to leave the band for a year or two, I don't think any of the group's solo albums were meant to suggest that the respective performer had "left the group". Mike, Dennis & Brian all released solo albums (and singles in some cases) while they still considered themselves Beach Boys. Certainly Landy affected the group dynamic during the years he was involved, but until Carl passed away, I think Brian still considered himself a Beach Boy and sought to participate in group projects. His non-involvement in SIP could be due to the lengthy legal problems he encountered during the time of its recording.  Maybe I'm misremembering, but doesn't Brian show up in one of the SIP music videos? After the failure of "Stars & Stripes", Brian is steered back to a solo career which, in effect, becomes permanent after the death of Carl.

I don't think Brian was considered an active Beach Boy at all at the time of any of his albums, especially not in 1988 (although, tragically, he had appeared on "Wipe Out" the year before).  I think Carl was officially gone for at least one if not both releases.  I remember a blurb in the paper about one of his albums, containing his remark about being gone from the band "until they care as much about 1981 as 1961."

I'll never forget the shock of sitting on the couch watching "Solid Gold" ( :-[don't ask) and Carl making a solo appearance...

Don't know for sure, but he appearedr with them on Baywatch singing to "Summer of love". BTW, Brian and Carl look very cool on that one...

...And his underrated contribution "In My Car" appeared as a Beach Boys track on 1989's "Still Cruisin'". If we consider his appearance in the "California Dreamin'" video, that "Surfin'" thing shot on the beach, the twenty-five year anniversary special ("Spirit Of Rock And Roll"), the Fat Boys' "Wipeout" video and then the production of "In My Car", it appears that Brian was still a "Beach Boy" during the recording of his solo album and after its release. Granted, the band was not much of a going concern during this period beyond the "Kokomo" aberration and the touring, and Landy certainly pushed for Brian's independence from the band, but I tend to think that Brian didn't think that having a solo career meant he wouldn't still contribute to the group. I agree with you completely that by "Imagination" and beyond, Brian did not consider himself an active Beach Boy. My point being that when Brian released "Caroline, No" as a solo single, or when Dennis released "Sound Of Free" under the name Rumbo or "Pacific Ocean Blue" as a solo album, or when Mike Love released "Looking Back With Love", they weren't "leaving the band" to go solo; it happened concurrently with their band commitments. In the same sense, I'm not certain that Brian saw his '88 release as much different. It's just that without being a touring member and without the band doing very much of anything in the studio, Brian's contributions were minimal.

Roger, your points are well made and I wouldn't dig in on it.  I guess it's really pretty subjective.

Although I hadn't given it any thought before, I definitely didn't perceive Brian as an active Beach Boy in 1988.  He and the band had high profiles that year, but separately.  He had quietly released a solo single the year before- "Let's Go Heave In My Car"/"Too Much Sugar", and had been conspicuously absent from "Kokomo".  It seems like he was referred to as "former Beach Boy" or "erstwhile Beach Boy" in a lot of the publicity at the time, but I wouldn't swear to it.  It seems like the tone of the interviews on his publicity tour (anyone have the interview disc handy?) were all pretty clear on that, and had him fielding questions about whether he would record with the band again, etc., but again, I definitely wouldn't swear to it. 

It seemed like his appearances with them much after the '85 album were usually more of an aberration.  I travelled to Tampa in 1987 to see them just because Brian's special appearance with them had been publicized.  Prior to that, in the early eighties, it was unclear when you went to see them whether he'd be there or not.

I guess there's no right or wrong answer- he was and he wasn't.

But I do think the "Kokomo" snub triggered a slight rift, because Brian sort of indicated it in the press at the time.

Best typo ever.

Agreed! I about died when I read that!

I've always called it that.  Never been into that song, or the flip.

You know what the funny thing is? I'm not familiar with the original title so I just figured "Let's Go Heave In My Car" was the actual title.. I was thinking to myself, "Typical Brian.."

Mike claims in the "Endless Harmony" documentary that the Beach Boys DID try to contact Brian to have him take part in the recording of "Kokomo," but Landy blocked it from happening.  Apparently he wanted an Executive Producer title and a songwriting credit or something like that.

That would have been incredibly typical for around then- Landy holding Brian hostage and negotiating for personal ransom.  Strange, though, that it didn't come out at the time.  Brian's camp alleged a snub, and the Beach Boys didn't reply.  If that was the case, they'd have served themselves well to make it clear what was going on, as they did with the Pet Sounds CD release.