The Smiley Smile Message Board

There are a few smile threads going so I thought why not start another ...

Where does the idea that H&V was to follow Our Prayer as the start to Smile, originate from? Is it generally accepted that H&V was the lead track, purely because this is what happened on Smiley?

To my ears, H&V after Our Prayer just does not work. I'm not a musicologist, but the keys sound all wrong to me. The jump from the last mmm to "I've Been In this town" sounds distinctly unmusical and not the sort of thing Brian would've done. Unless he planned some sort of bridge between the two such as Gee, but I don't think there's any evidence that Gee was planned as an intro to Heroes or anything else for that matter, bar Heroes intro but I'm pretty sure that was an intro to H&V single side b.

Compare to the transition between Prayer and Good Vibrations - whatever key GV starts in, it sounds like a natural progression from the last chord of Our Prayer. It actually sounds good. Plus the hushed vocals of Carl have a much more choral quality that matches the mood of Prayer.

Personally I'm sure GV was to be the lead track on Smile - the cover even has GV emblazoned across the top. H&V would've kicked off side 2 imo.

Any thoughts?

I would imagine that the idea came from Brian.

Perhaps, if SMiLe really was just a collection of songs and not a song cycle/teenage-symphony-to-god type of thing, it's possible GV would have been the lead off track, but somehow that doesn't seem right to me. It could be just twenty some years of assuming H&V would start it that gives me that unsettled impression, but GV never really struck me as a particularly good example of SMiLe music, thus it would be a weird start to the record.
Another related question is, except for the studio talk, what makes you think Prayer would have been the lead track? Perhaps Prayer would have been an intro to the album in the same way H&V pt2 would have been a sampler, used on a single and not intended as a SMiLe track (is it on the handwritten list, can't remember?)
Anyway, I feel like GV is a good start to side two of the 12 song SMiLe, but I'm interested in folks with more insight than I to sway my establishment mind.

Excellent theory, and follows pattern of Pet Sounds having singles lead off each side (even if they were A & B sides of the same single).  It's good marketingn simple as that, and it's sure to help ensure that they sell a million units, in Ja.......

On the session tape for the SMile Prayer Brian tells Mike the song isn't a "track," just a "little intro to the album." 

So that's where that comes from.

I agree it doesn't flow smoothly into Heroes, and I haven't seen any indication Brian was going to place Heroes as the first track, other than the fact he did so on Smiley.

I always use Do You Like Worms as the opening track - it follows beautifully (and dramatically) from the end of Prayer.

"What was to be the lead track on Smile?"

Here is a 100% guaranteed accurate answer:

No-one knows. Not now, and very probably, not then.

I agree with you. I don't think "Our Prayer" would've been on a 12 song SMiLE.

Although I know it had no chance and probably wasn't even considered for the album, I still think "You're Welcome" is the perfect opener. All three songs - "Good Vibrations", "Heroes And Villains", and "Do You Like Worms"  - sound great following it.

Shame if "Gee" wasn't meant as an intro back then, because it works so well.  After "Our Prayer" and "Gee", the album just kind of explodes into gear.  I'd think that the idea at *least* crossed Brian's mind for a moment back then.

Sheriff  - I actually hadn't thought about whether it would've been on the 12 track Smile. My point was more that when Brian was considering it as the intro to the album, I think it was an intro that would've been followed by Good Vibrations, rather than Heroes. Worms works as a good opener in a narrative sense, but it seems like a fairly left-field , slow no. to kick off the album. I think GV has much more impact as a lead track, and would've been more likely from a commercial point of view.

I guess the handwritten tracklist with the omitted Our Prayer makes you wonder if Brian had dropped it from the line-up by this time. I don't think its absence meant he'd dropped it though - remember, in the sessions he's anxious not to count it as a track, and maybe he didn't feel it necessary to feature it in a proposed tracklist either. Doesn't mean it wasn't still going to be on the album. Who knows though!

Just a reminder - not only did Brian not write that list, when shown it in the 80s, he claimed he'd never seen it before.

Didn't he also say he has no idea Dennis recorded an album? I'm mean, this guy's memory is a little peculiar.

That is an interesting theory with GV as the lead track, being the track featured on the cover, it never crossed my mind. At least early on when GV was still burning up the charts and this artwork was presumably being put together I can see how that could easily be the plan. Later, after GV had rounded over in the charts, I wonder if that still would have been the plan?

Don't have a clue about Prayer making it as an "intro" to the album. It is one of the few definite things straight from Brian's mouth at the time and I sort of hate to give it up.

Excellent point.

this might be a path well trodden - apologies if so - but any idea who did write that list?

(in other news, 'prayer' is, musicologically [dreadful word - sorry] unresolved at the end.  it's in e flat minor [though it was recorded in c sharp minor and varisped up] and ends on its dominant, b flat - meaning it wants to go to an e flat chord next.  SMiLE songs that start with e flat chords: (1) good vibrations; (2) cabinessence. other SMiLE fragments that start with e flat chords: gee and its subsequent variants.)

nerdwatchers, you can relax for another month or so.

I understood where you were coming from; I brought up the "Our Prayer" issue. And I agree with this post ^ too. I think both "Good Vibrations" or "Do You Like Worms" both sound better after "Our Prayer" than "Heroes And Villains" to kick off the album. IMO, I think Darian had to tweak "Heroes And Villains" just to get it to fit where he....er Brian placed it on BWPS. I also don't have any problem opening an album or a side with "Good Vibrations"; it works for me. "Do You Like Worms" not as much but I can still hear it.

Two SMiLE opinions which don't mean much but that never stopped me before... :police: I was never sold on "Our Prayer" opening SMiLE based on one "sentence" uttered during a single session by a stoned Brian. I also think it's awkward OPENING an album with a song like "Our Prayer"; it just sounds like a "later" song, the way it was used on 20/20 and at the end of BWPS, albeit only a portion.

Also, I've mentioned it a few times, but, to me, "Heroes And Villains" is also a "later" song, not an opening song. Almost all of the verbs are past tense (listen to them!); it just sounds awkward as an opener, when all he is singing about are things that already HAPPENED!  

And, finally, I put a lot of stock in the handwritten note sent to Capitol, whoever actually put the pen to paper. Whether it was Brian or Carl or Diane or Banana, they don't remind me of the type of people who would fu-- with the record company. Capitol must've had a reason for the list; I don't see a good reason why a Beach Boy person would sabotage their own album/project by intentionally misleading the record company. Oh, I think Brian wrote it. The fact that he has no knowledge of it means A) he's lying, B) he doesn't remember, or C) he doesn't give a sh--  to get into it.

Was Our Prayer really recorded in C#m and sped up a tone?

Rereading the Vosse article I was struck by the point where he states that Surf's Up was to close the album and after that was done there'd be a sort of chorale amen.  Might that "chorale amen" have been "prayer"?   Might the "album opener" have been switched to be the album closer?    :-\

I guess I've never really considered anything other than "Prayer" to be the Smile opener.  Obviously Brian was prone to changing his mind frequently (that's an understatement, really), but if he says it was to be "a little intro to the album," I believe him.  It works so perfectly for me as an opener that I can't imagine it anywhere else. 

As for what may have followed it, they issue of keys definitely presents some challeneges.  Going from the B flat chord that "Prayer" ends on straight to the C # opening chord/key of "Heroes" doesn't work at all.  As others have pointed out, going to some variant of E flat is the most natural transition, which puts "Good Vibrations" and "Cabinessence" into play.  I personally like "Worms" following "Prayer."  It works key-wise ("Worms" being in F major, another good natural transition from the B flat chord), and it's a good starting point for the Smile journey - starting at Plymouth Rock and moving west.

Despite the fact that it looks nothing like his handwriting in the 60s but looks awfully like Carl's ?  This was discussed here at considerable length in recent years and the conclusion was it was very probably Carl, or just possibly Diane, but definitely not Brian.

In before someone else refuses to listen to logic and continues to say it's Brian.

Yes I agree with you about the past tense start to H&V. I think it would work very well as an opener to side 2 for this reason.
I have thought this too. NB also in the siegel article, the writer describes Brian playing the acetates of smile, and finishing with something that must be Our Prayer which makes me wonder whether Brian regarded it as a closer.  The only problem with the Vosse article is that he has heard 20/20 at this point, so why does he not describe Prayer either by name or make reference to it being on the new BB album? May be an oversight. Other people here have suggested that perhaps Vosse was referring to another piece similar to Prayer, or a truncated version, but I very much doubt there were any other choral pieces recorded during smile, and if it was a shortened version of Our Prayer, the similarity to the 20/20 version would still be obvious to Vosse. I do think there is a strong chance that Brian had OP follow Surf's Up as a closer at some point.

Has anyone asked Diane about it?

I have thought this too. NB also in the siegel article, the writer describes Brian playing the acetates of smile, and finishing with something that must be Our Prayer which makes me wonder whether Brian regarded it as a closer.  The only problem with the Vosse article is that he has heard 20/20 at this point, so why does he not describe Prayer either by name or make reference to it being on the new BB album? May be an oversight. Other people here have suggested that perhaps Vosse was referring to another piece similar to Prayer, or a truncated version, but I very much doubt there were any other choral pieces recorded during smile, and if it was a shortened version of Our Prayer, the similarity to the 20/20 version would still be obvious to Vosse. I do think there is a strong chance that Brian had OP follow Surf's Up as a closer at some point.
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There's a Smile mix of Prayer with the next to last choral section removed - perhaps this was to be the closer. 

Vosse was not referring to Prayer as, since you mention, he had heard Prayer on 20/20 and would have said that piece was to be the closer.

The fact that there aren't any other choral pieces fitting the Vosse description doesn't mean anything - Brian might have planned to have a choral "Amen" kind of close which he talked about but never got around to recording.

Also, to an earlier poster - the fact that Prayer is not listed on the cover doesn't mean it wasn't to be included.  Brian specifically said Prayer was not going to be a "track" meaning it was not to be a "banded" separate titled track on the album, just an intro, so it would not have appeared on the cover or on the label as a track.

And let's not forget, despite the handwriting not being Brian's, MOST people (although not all) feel that the track list on the back was approved by Brian as producer, and is in effect his list, despite it not being his handwriting (and his not remembering it, which, as has been noted, these days doesn't mean that much).

The Vosse Fusion article is indeed fascinating - to my mind more for what he doesn't say than what he does.

^dun * dun * _dun

I think the 3rd 'dun' should be a half-tone higher...  ;D

I vaguely remember the thread. I seem to recall a handwriting sample of Carl's from around Wild Honey(?) that resembled the handwriting on the SMiLE submitted list. I honestly don't remember that Brian was definitively ruled out. I certainly never ruled him out. I still think the handwriting could pass for Brian's. Anybody out there have a sample of Brian's handwriting circa 1966 and a copy of the SMiLE tracklist note that they could post? It would be interesting to compare - again.... :police:

Interesting thoughts. If "Our Prayer" would've been, not a separate song, but an intro, it (the intro) would've been longer than some of Brian's complete songs! Also, if it was going to be an attached intro, could we rule out "Good Vibrations" as the song it was grafted to, or could we consider it a special "extended album version" of "Good Vibrations"? I can kinda hear "Our Prayer" attached to "Do You Like Worms" as that bombastic opening of "Worms" always sounded a little awkward. Now, preceding it with "Our Prayer" sounds a little better...

Our Prayer sounds real good preceding Cabin Essence (or Cabinessence, if you like) too (as it does on 20/20.) 
CE would have been a great opening track too, though I suppose if we have to be all linear in the progression of the album tracks then it would come too early, but do we have to be all linear?  If Smile was to have been a "whole trip across America" or whatever, then maybe not because a "trip' certainly isn't necessarily a linear experience (from what I've heard  ;)), but then if the "trip" was meant simply as a trip like one would take in their car across the country, then of course that'd sort of have to be linear. 
I kind of like starting with Child Is Father Of The Man, though maybe not following "prayer", as maybe "prayer" would've been the outro instead of the intro to the album (as has been bandied about), but then that's assuming Vosse had some clue of what he was talking about, which I have to sort of assume he did, though I would agree that what he didn't say is somewhat more compelling than what he did say. 
what is this edit with the next to last chorale section edited out?   If there is such an edit then maybe "prayer" would have bookended the album.   ???
Ok, now i need to sit down.  My head is spinning!   :3d

Done.

Yeah! You're flatting. Surge! Surge!

My personal favorite comibination for SMiLE tracks has been:

1. Our Prayer
2. Good Vibrations
3. Heroes & Villains

I'll have to try Worms up front too..

This was much earlier in the thread, but it was mentioned about key relationships between "Our Prayer" and "Heroes and Villains".  I seriously doubt that Brian gave the kind of thought to key relationships that a trained composer would (though he obviously isn't unaware of them, either).

I'd have to disagree with this.  Working the way Brian was at the time (i.e. in sections) necessitated being increasingly aware of key relationships.  You have to be when you're stringing different pieces of music together to work as a coherent whole.  I'm not suggesting that the key relationships between tracks need to work, but if Prayer was going to be linked directly with the opening track, I would think that Brian would have wanted something that "worked" key-wise to follow it, as if they were two sections of the same track.  Especially during Smile, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have been thinking this way.

Yes I agree that the intro into the lead song would definitely have mattered.

Isn't there some weird key relationships between songs on Pet Sounds, that shows that Brian was considering these things, like each song goes up a step or something?

Quoted from The Elements thread, but relevant to here:


This is a good point and if we presume this to be the case, then either Heroes or Vibes was to follow Our Prayer as the lead track. My money's on GV as Heroes is in the wrong key to follow Our Prayer. This then shifts H&V to the start of side 2, with Surf's Up as the closer.

I know there are a few assumptions being made here but they're very logical ones. If you go along with my above point, then the only tracks left to sequence (if we take the capitol list as our tracklist) are: Worms, Windchimes, Cabinessence, Wonderful, Great Shape, Child, The Elements, Vegetables and Old Master Painter.

Why, pray tell ?

Because it's the only track besides Prayer with any evidence of its placement in the album - admittedly only according to Vosse, but he's making this recollection only a year or so after Smile was scrapped, so I'm inclined to believe that Brian considered Surf's Up a closer at some point. That and it's the most natural closer to the album, isn't it?

 ;D

I think the conventional wisdom of Our Prayer -> Heroes continues to make the most sense of anything. You can even take or leave Prayer (discarding Brian's bit of patter.) Just consider:

1.) It would have been the lead single.

2.) It is the central track for the entire album -- its segments and variations on the chorus are used throughout the other songs.

3.) It's up tempo and ear catching. It starts the album off with a bang. Much like Wouldn't It Be Nice on PS.

4.) It encapsulates the entire project in a few minutes -- you have full-on Van Dyke lyrics, multiple sections and giddy humor all wrapped into one.

5.) It structures the album as a narrative (and maybe this is a better argument for its placement on the '04 version), since it's the only overtly story-telling song.

I think points 2 and 4 are the strongest conceptually, and 1 and 3 are the strongest commercially. There's just no reason to think of Heroes in any other place. Yes, you could have led off side two with it, I suppose. But would Brian have really started his new album with an old single (GV)?

The key questions are interesting, but a red herring, I think. The project was so consistently in flux that those matters may well have still needed working out.

I will, however, agree that Surf's Up as the album's ending has always made a great deal of sense to me, and I was disappointed not to have it wrap up the '04 version. I think the structure works perfectly well, but something about Surf's Up seems very, well, final.

See Label For Correct Playing Order= Brian had no idea how it was going to be sequenced.

Or rather a thousand ideas...

But I suspect some things would have remained fairly static i.e. the first tracks on each side, and the final track.

Claymcc makes a good case for H&V being the lead track. I think the best argument is that Brian might've been reluctant to put an older single as the first track. However at the start of the project I see no reason why GV was not a strong and very commercial contender for lead track, and personally I feel the effectiveness of the transition from OP to GV suggests it was to kick off the album to begin with, even if it was to be usurped by H&V later on in the project. I have a hard time believing that Brian would have followed Prayer with H&V as it simply doesn't sound good, and if it was to be the lead track then maybe Prayer was out of the running by then. Just my hunches but there you go.

I can't imagine Brian ever having wanted Surf's Up as a closer. What a downer for an end track.  :'(

And "Caroline, No" is like a really peppy closer???

Pet Sounds was telling a very different kind of story.

True, but before BWPS, "Surf's Up" as the closing track made perfect sense to me.  It's not really a downer if you recognize that the lyric ends in a revelation, a "wonderful thing, a children's song".  So to me, "Surf's Up" is about spiritual growth and revelation, not altogether tragic, although there is tragedy in the lyric, it is resolved in the end to a state of peace and acceptance.

Surf's Up a downer?   ???
It's made me feel many things, but bummed out has never been one of them. 

Whatever the lyrics say, the music is mournful and certainly comes to no real resolution. Both factors which are largely against using it as an album closer for me. IMO of course.

Well, I can understand it as a "downer" in some respects.  VDP's lyric is, in fact, a lament for the most part.  But like I said earlier, it ends with a revelation of wonder.  That resolves whatever "downer" aspect exists, for me.

Well, we don't really know for sure what the final product would have sounded like. We have an idea from Brian's demo; however, for all we know, the 'part 2' that was recorded  was an upbeat jazzy section. Not likely, I know. Still....

The fact that Worms was listed first on the Capitol track list (sure it says for running order see label, but the very fact that Worms was the first track to mind to be written on the list), AND the fact that it sounds great following Prayer, seals the deal for me.

The past practice of putting the "singles" to open and/or close the sides doesn't really predict what he was going to do with Smile, since he was trying to write songs and create an album "outside of the box" (but from the sandbox) per Van Dyke.  The very fact that he wanted as much of Smile to be a "surprise" as possible would also argue against putting an already released single as the lead off track - not much of a surprise then to start the album.

Well yeah, I can see the "downer" aspect from that point of view, I mean "columnated ruins domino" isn't the cheeriest sentiment I suppose, but as you say - the end turns upward toward hope.    The song is "mournful" in its way, but it's so awe inspiring it never really "downed" me.   Like Til I Die - as Mike supposedly said upon hearing it, "bummer", but the thing is, it's not.  I mean, it should be, but it sounds so amazing, so ...pick an adjective...that it takes the depressing thought and turns it into something so deeply touching to the human soul, that instead of just being a bummer, it's cathartic.  Like Pet Sounds is generally a pretty "down" album, but in a very cathartic way, which in turn becomes positive.  

And has anyone ever tried Surf's Up in the lead off slot?  Now, I am in no way saying that this was ever a consideration by Brian or whatever, but  I've tried a few mixes where I have SU lead off, and it's kind of interesting - and it sounds good (to me anyway) after "prayer". 

Surf's Up has always been the perfect closer for me...like others have said, it's not a complete "downer," in that the last verse and fade are uplifting in their sentiments.  I would think that in '67, Brian would have wanted something spiritually uplifiting like that to close his "teenage symphony to God."  Surf's Up is really the only thing on Smile that fits that bill, aside from perhaps a reprise of Prayer.

Yes it's the only contender imo, just as A Day In The Life could only fill the last slot on Sgt Pepper.

gotta disagree with all the posters saying Our Prayer and HV don't go together well...they're PERFECT.  that quiet dynamism.  then all of a sudden...BOOM, you're hit with this pop bliss. it's a perfect way to start the album, and the transition is one of my favorite parts.