The Smiley Smile Message Board

Peter Reum and Bill Tobelman must have been the first (and maybe still only) ones to name them individually. They can be compared and evaluated in the following illustration where they respectively form most of the headlines in the top:
www.dywizjadania.dk//data/images/flag/Smile%202.doc

But do we need them - or  other groupings to really appreciate and understand SMiLE? And has it changed in the 5 years since 2004?

I never think of SMiLE in movements. I had problems downloading the link, so I don't know exactly what was there; however, what would the movements be? Americana, Cycle of Life, and Elements? I recognize these things within the songs, but I've never really given the idea of concrete 'movements' any real thought. I mean, I realize that's how BWPS is presented, but in terms of original SMiLE, I don't think there was a real 'these songs are the X movement, these are the Y movement, and this last bit is the Z movement'. 

I too never think of Smile as separate movements. I just think of it as one whole album. The whole differnet linked themes to me just sounds like pretentious bollocks.

"Sounds" like pretentious bollocks? Forget "sounds". It's now reality. That's the way it was FINISHED - by Brian Wilson. He told us so.

So you don't think that there was going to be ANY connection between the songs? I at least think that there was going to be the Americana connection between SOME of the songs-only because that's how it worked out, and I think they got a bit of a roll going with a couple of the Americana subjects.  I don't believe that they sat down and purposely said 'Let's make an album about America'. For some reason, it doesn't sit right with me. No reason not to believe it mind you, just a gut feeling.

Connections between songs? Yes, SOME connections with a few songs. Movements? No, but I'm a believer in the 12 stand alone song SMiLE.

I'm swayed by the Americana theme: the Plymouth Rock settlers landing; the Cabinessence settlement of the West; the Wild West of Heroes and Villains; even the carriage across the fog, two-step to lamplight cellar tune, which conjures up an image of the refined city dwellers at the time of the Wild West.

WHat seems missing to me, as a Brit reared on Hollywood's version of US history, is a Gold Rush tale...

I think my head just exploded.

That pretty much sums it up for me! A 12 song SMiLE believer. With the Americana element in a handful of songs.

I think there's a possibility that movements, or at least themes that united songs, existed in 66/67, even if Brian revised the idea and opted for 12 separate tracks towards the end of the project. I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the initial concepts for dumb angel was a cycle of life theme. I may have remembered this wrong. There're certainly hints of a thematic unity between wonderful, child and surf's up. Child contains the cycle of life within 1 song, surf's up references this in the coda, and SU also references wonderful, although not sure if that was designed or a happy coincidence. I'd opt for the former.

Americana theme exists in worms, heroes, great shape, OMP, cabinessence, and possibly child if you consider dennis' cowboy song quote.

I don't necessarily think they just plucked these suite ideas out of thin air in 04. Also Peter reum is adamant that Brian desctibed suites for smile in the 80s or something. There is a lot of unity within groups of songs in smile and it seems a little blinkered imo to just assume they were 12 separate tracks and that's as far as it goes.

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

I'm a twelve tracker too. What has supposedly been connective links are really just H&V tracks. Every available song has a fade. Brian was into movements within songs but I still don't see an evidence of anything movement-like within the album. Americana theme in the lyrics of a few songs, sure.

On the other hand, if you wanted to call a few collections of a few separate faded individual songs on the same album a "movement", nothing would stop you I suppose and you could say the album had movements.

Let's turn this into yet another potential 1967 Smile versus BWPS thread, four hundred just aren't enough.


...

IMO the entire album was to have been an "American trip".  Culture at the time was so Anglo-cized it was in part Brian and Van Dyke's reaction against that.   That's my feeling anyway.   
As far as movements go, it's got them now (in BWPS), but back then I believe it would've been 12 tracks, the tracks having movements (like GV) with musical themes being repeated through out the album. 
The possibility exists though that each sides tracks could have flowed into each other to form two album side suites (or three suites on two sides if you like).  Just because a song has a definite fade doesn't mean it couldn't have been segued with another track (or link track if you like) does it?  I don't know, you tell me. 
I'm thinking of how the Moody Blues albums used to fade and segue that way. 

Word. Sometimes music is just music. I'm still waiting for a deep analytical discussion of Brian's sh*t.

Do you mean by fade, an extended section (as in the tag to windchimes) that could have had a fade applied to it? Who's to say Brian wouldn't have done a jump edit straight into something else that could've created a sense of continuous movement? Something akin to the first songs of Sgt Pepper? This may have been the initial idea, and then he decided on 12 tracks with fades further on down the line, or perhaps some songs were connected and some were not, like pepper. I can appreciate there's no solid evidence to back this up other than heresay, but is there any strong evidence to disprove the interlinked songs theory entirely?

Look always makes me wonder about Brian's intentions. It starts (unless it has been re-edited by bootleggers) with what sounds like a bridge. It also repeats the GV riff. It's one of the early songs recorded so makes me think that maybe at first he planned interlinked songs.

Well what would Brian know about Brian's merda?   We're the experts in that department, in fact I gobbled up a whole one in 1957 therefore I know best.  Still got the newspaper somewhere.

Disagree about the amount of Smile vs BWPS threads though, I could easily go another 8,398.

I call them the First Movement, the Second Movement and the Third Movement.

Yes? Me and my opinion. Whose to say he would...you know...besides Brian? Well, I can't prove a negative, but no evidence of it back in the day seems like pretty strong evidence imo. Still, I can allow that Brian may have thought of the songs in some grouping that he considered movements in his own mind or maybe someday a master for SMiLE will be discovered all linked together with H&V sections and butt edits into 3 themed movements . I'm cool with it either way.

*ba dump bump*

Frankly the whole notion of three movements each on a different theme skates perilously close to "THE CONCEPT ALBUM". There have been a handful of good ones over the years but generally any time an artist feels the need to link a cycle of songs to a specific theme or (shudder) "storyline" I usually run for the hills. Isn't good music for the sake of music not enough?

Yeah, no movements - what Brian calls movements now were what we'd call "themes" back in 67 - there was an Americana theme running through many songs, a "childhood" theme (Child is the Father, Surf's Up, Wonderful), an Elements/nature theme (The Elements, Vegetables, Wind Chimes, I'm in Great Shape).

So when the decision was made for Brian to perform a "Smile suite" live, it was natural to group songs by themes and turn them into movements.  When Brian referred to some of the "movements" being essentially finished (Americana) and others needing work, that reflected the state of completion of the song in the thematic "movements."  The Americana songs were the most finished.

The Boomer in me wants it to be more Sgt.-Peppery than Sgt. Pepper's but I just can't see any back-in-the-day evidence for it.

Was Sgt Pepper viewed as a concept album? The only link/theme I can find within the tracks is that they are all insanely overrated!  >:D

How dare you sir!   :o  Them's boomer fightin' words.  >:(

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.

And so was Capitol Records.

Domenic Priore would disagree.

HaHa!! Thought I'd need a bulletproof laptop to type that!  ;D

Back to the subject ; I think any reoccurring lyrical themes within Smile (not BWSP) are much more lightly to be a result of what Brian and VDP were interested in conversation wise at the time seeping into their work rather than a well defined grand concept.

I'd forgotten this AGD. So presumably The Elements was the track with planned crossfades?

I remember this sparking another debate in the past - Would Brian have been doing crossfades at this time?!

Doubtless.  ;D

Dom was 4 in 1966... Van Dyke was 23.

:lol

A post undeniably retarded beyond compassionate discharge

Meh. Smile needs its own sub-forum, here, and another Smile sub-forum where people can complain endlessly about Brian not being on LSD and not reverting back to his 25 year old self and not resurrecting Carl and Dennis for BWPS.

Wow.  I didn't know that.  Damn...I don't know plop.

So...one question -- what does "one track with internal crossfades" mean exactly?  What's banded?  Like all stuck together...bam, bam, bam?

'Banded' as in each track separated from the next. 'Internal crossfades' as in disparate sections of music flowing one into another within on track.

Referring to "The Elements".

That doesn't matter....do you KNOW who Domenic Priore is? He knows ALL  ;)

Thanks for noticing.

12 posts, and it's official; you're an idiot.

Sarcasm not your strong point eh?  ;)

For proof of Priore's supreme knowledge regarding all things SMiLE, read his amazingly well written and entirely accurate book 'Smile: The Story Of Brian's Wilson's Lost Masterpiece'.











DISCLAIMER: I am of course being sarcastic but as some people seem to be having sarcasm difficulties I thought I would make this clear   ;)

But what he said was true :(

Ding! Another one! I guess you have to point out when you're being sarcastic around here these days.

This is the conversation that never ends...

I've concluded in my own mind that it was all for the best--perhaps even some kind of divine intervention--that SMiLE was not released in 1967.  It really needed to be the kind of incredible long-form work that it ended up being in 2004, and it probably wouldn't have been that in '67, no matter what had happened.  

My guess is that VDP is absolutely correct about the plan for the album.  The use of segues and crossfading was probably not something Brian was thinking of.  If he had been, then why would he not have used such gimmicks on Smiley Smile?  By then there was even the precedent of Sgt. Pepper to use as a template--OK, one could argue that may have been precisely why Brian didn't do it on Smiley Smile, and anyway, before BWPS, I don't think either Brian or the BBs have ever used segues or crossfades, so there's really no reason to think it was ever in consideration for SMiLE in 1967. (OK, one exception, the "California Saga" on Holland...I can't think of any others...)

As for the original question...I think it may be intentional that the "movements" aren't given official titles on the album.  Like many symphonies are given "titles" by the general public (such as Beethoven's Eroica or Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand--names these works are known by but were not named by the composers), the movements will probably come to be known as "1. Americana  2. Cycle of Life  3. Elements".  And that's as good as anything.

I so very much enjoy the whole musical journey that SMiLE has become.  Really, what we have is grand and great beyond anything we could have hoped for.  There is this wonderful, magical body of work from the 1960s that we call SMiLE, that is forever a jigsaw puzzle for us to play with on our computers and wonder about.  Then there is this wonderful, magical finished work from 2004 that is everything I could have ever hoped for SMiLE to be.  I guess not everybody agrees with me on that one, but I am just very grateful I lived to see it all come to fruition.

It would have worked as a 12-track album, assuming Brian finished and polished everything to the degree of H&V and Cabinessence as they finally appeared. The themes would have been subtler, no doubt, with the Americana exception, which is hard to ignore.

The three-movement structure was necessitated by the fragmentary nature of the surviving parts and the necessity of making a somewhat theatrical live performance (no way that fire would have given way to Van Dyke's "Brian in the present" couplets in 67). That being said, the themes were all there to begin with, VDP's new words are relatively well chosen, and the musicality is top notch. It works astonishingly well for what it is. It seems inevitable.

I suspect the movements -- or themes -- or concepts of the movements and themes -- were in Brian's head in the 60s, and I suspect he thought about them from time to time afterward. I don't think he sequenced it in the early 80s in secret or anything, but I think he's more aware of the connections in the music than we sometimes give him credit for.

(Example? 'Til I Die. Each verse is one of the four elements, with the exception of fire.)

"Cool, Cool Water"  :)

Yeah, I know, but what I meant was segueing or crossfading otherwise separate songs on an album ala Sgt. Pepper or the Moody Blues' albums.

Didn't say that...  just said "ever used segues or crossfades". ;)

Brilliant observation, now I have a whole new appreciation and understanding of this work of genius...

I never noticed that either.  Til I Die really is Brian's finest moment as a lyricist I'd say.

My bad...

Plus - I'm better at liking a liking the Beach Boys than this aching ballsack any day of the Chinese New Year, any day.  I have proof from the Crown.

I completely agree with this.

 I don't believe the idea of a cycle of life theme came out of thin air. CIFOTM embodies the concept within the one song, Wonderful is about a girl getting pregnant (as far as I'm aware) and the coda of Surf's Up is about children knowing the way, and again contains the idea (and lyrics) child is the father of the man. Surf's Up also references wonderful which I don't think is a coincidence. I think it was easy for Brian, Darian and VDP to collect songs into Americana and Cycle of life themes because these two themes existed already in the music.

The 3rd suite feels more like an odds & sods collection to me. However I do feel that the elements concept and a general feeling of 'exhultation in nature' was a defining concept behind many Smile songs - Fire, Friday Night, Holidays, Vegetables, Dada, Windchimes, so I don't think this last Elements suite is a new idea either. Where it feels less focused is in the inclusion of Good Vibrations (which I personally feel would've fit with the cycle of life songs better) and Great Shape, although the latter works in the way that it talks about fresh air an' all that.

Direct from the man:

E.C.: One thing I like about SMiLE is how the tracks flow into one another…

Brian Wilson: That was because of Darian Sahanaja and me. We sequenced it together with computers and Pro-Tools, modern instruments. And it took us about two weeks to do that but we got it all sequenced together.

E.C.: So was that something that you came up with exclusively for the 2004 SMiLE or did you originally intend to use link tracks on the original SMiLE?

Brian Wilson: No, that's 2004.

http://www.earcandymag.com/brianwilson-2004.htm

Well, of course, Brian does know what he's talking about when he agrees with me.

I wish I never read that interview, because it gives me the impression that Brian just sort of went along with whatever everyone else wanted.

I think my head just exploded.

I don't get that impression at all.  It matches what VDP claims, and it simply sounds like Brian is giving credit where it's due.  Darian has gone on record saying that, for example, in the case of "Wonderful/Song For Children", it was Brian who made the final call saying "That works.  That's how we'll do it."

Honestly, if SMiLE in 1967 were destined to be mastered in the standard pre-Sgt. Pepper pop album format, then I think it's a blessing that it didn't happen that way.  "SMiLE 2004" is much, much better than that would have been.

 

I don't know if better. Different, certainly.

I think of it this way. I was listening to the '04 album in the car the other day, and was just floored with Cabinessence as a piece of music. I mean, that thing is freaking cinematic. It's awesome. It's sectional, yet kind of has a verse-chorus structure. It's just an astonishing creation.

And I thought to myself, if a 12-track Smile had 12 tracks like that -- complete, miniature films with multiple sections, evocative lyrics, and clear yet suggestive structure -- that would have been a frigging masterpiece.

But, of course, Brian never managed to get 12 complete tracks like that. At most, he managed five or six such tracks and several more evocative fragments and instrumentals. In 2004, he and Darian and Van Dyke had to deal with what was there. And the best they could manage was to stitch them together by theme, with some new lyrics and links. This worked out far better than anyone expected, but it's an utterly different thing.

Good perspective.  I agree that a 12 song album with everything on it being as fully developed as "Cabinessence" would have been a masterpiece and a total triumph.  Honestly, I'm just one of those who feel that what we have is grand and great and satisfying beyond hope.  I couldn't be happier with a finished SMiLE than I am with what we now have.

Didn't one of the original mixes of I'm In Great Shape end with tape noise/reverb, that kind of implied another song was due to emerge from it... possibly Barnyard, if the demo BW played at the piano for some DJ could be taken as a guide?

BWPS's IIGS morphed into IWTBA from that noise which didn't come across as quite right somehow....

I don't know about morphing into IWTBA, despite the tapebox title . . . I think it morphed into the "Barnyard Suite" with IIGS, Barnyard, Swedish frog and . . . maybe Do a Lot.

Or instead of Do a Lot . . . Barnyard Billy!

Yes there are original mixes where Brian has applied the tape noise. It makes me wonder if, at the early stages of H&V, Great shape with the tape noise stood in place of the dum dum dum tape explosion that precedes the FB fade in the February mix of the song. Barnyard would then have been in place of the FB fade, so great shape would have gone to the tape explosion, followed by barnyard as the fade. This is exactly how I've placed great shape and barnyard in my own smile mix, and the transition works perfectly. I agree with you when you say IWBA doesn't quite feel right coming out of great shape - barnyard works much better.

Here's my interpretation of the third movement.  Now I realize he didn't intend it this way, but it's what I hear at least.  So there!

"I'm In Great Shape" - it represents the Earth element, as well as Brian's family settling in Southern California way back in the day.
"I Wanna Be Around" - it represents the Earth element (love is a very earthy thing), and the old timey sound represents Brian's parents meeting and courting.
"Workshop" - Represents the Earth Element (construction, earthy things), and Brian's parents... um.... conceiving young Brian.
"Vega-Tables" - represents the Earth Element (plants grow in the earth), as well as Brian's Childhood.  Eat a lot, sleep a lot, brush 'em like crazy!

"On A Holiday" - represents the wind element (woodwind instrumentation), as well as the Beach Boy's and Brian's early career, this is Brian in his late teens, early 20's.  The "Rock, Rock, Roll!" part in the background is a throwback to the sing a long sound of the Beach Boys backing Brian up vocally.  
"Wind Chimes" - represents the wind element, and starts with that "Long, Long Ago, Long Ago" which is Brian clueing us in that he's about to go back to where all the madness started.  This song represents the beautiful nature of Brian's more introspective work, starting with things like In My Room and culminating with the genius on Pet Sounds, Summer Days!, "Today!", and of course Smile.

Mr.s O'Leary's Cow - represents the fire element, as well as the tumultous nature of Brian's life during and after the Smile sessions.  Insanity, best exhibited by the original recording of this song and the events surrounding it, Brian supposedly locking the song in the vault, etc.  The symbolic moment he lost it.

"Is it hot as hell in here, or is it me? - More clues of Brian's mental anguish in the years following his 'problems'.

"Really in the PINK!" is Brian meeting Melinda, her getting him new doctors, etc. and turning his life around.  Adopting his daughters, etc.

"In Blue Hawaii" - represents the water element, and also Brian's life post Beach Boys with Melinda.  'So far away from Blue Hawaii... Hawaii beckons to Me... Hawaii, Hawaii Lay beyond the sea" all this is Brian looking back on the beautiful music and life that he had in his early 20's, as a member of the Beach Boys, and when he really had it together.  The song even sounds the most like the Beach Boys.  Hawaii is a symbolic theme that represents the paradise he sees the early 60's as in his mind.

"Aloha Nui means goodbye" represents Brian's death

You literally hear the Angels come and take him after that, and then it turns into Good Vibrations

"Good Vibrations" represents the 5th element, the Aether (the space between the other 4 elements) well illustrated by the ESP lyrics.  This song represents what Brian will be remembered for after his death, his incredible music and the brilliant production skills he brought to us.  His legacy after death.



Just my .02, I don't think it's meant that literal but it fits really, really well in my opinion!