The Smiley Smile Message Board

I recently bought the BB85 cd. Hadn't owned it for nearly 10 years. Now I remember why. But I noticed that 3 or 4 of the better songs were Carl's. What about after this album? Did Carl write many songs afterward? If so, why weren't they included on Stil Cruisin and Summer in Paradise? What did Carl think of SIP? I get the sense that he eventually gave up the fight and let Mike control the band.

I've wondered this myself. He comes up with a song like The Trader for Holland, and even Full Sail and ACH were pretty good for L.A, but his collaborations with Randy Bachman for KTSA aside, it seems we don't really hear from him until the Beckley/Lamm/Wilson album just before his death?

I'd go even earlier and wonder what the hell happened after Holland. It seems like Carl's marriage problems and subsequent heroin addiction (or did it come first?)completely killed his drive and was just as responsible IMHO to their failure to keep up their (artistic) momentum as Brian being forced back in.

I think it's fair to say that Carl did his best work before Murry died, but I think he really lost his drive after the loss of Dennis. He did his songs for the 1985 LP but he really wasn't trying to take control of the band by that point.

On the other hand he did two quite weak soloalbums when Dennis was still alive. I think Carl just wasn't as gifted as a songwriter as his brothers were. His powers were in producing I guess

What about Make it Big?  Is it just him vocally? who wrote it?

It was written by Terry Melcher/Bill House/Mike Love.

I find Carl to be the most fascinating Beach Boy, probably because we know so little about him.  Even Mike, who is never at a loss for words, has never said much about Carl.  In interviews Carl would talk about the music, but would almost never talk about band politics (he did make some general comments about not rehearsing when stopped touring in 1981 and he was quoted as saying "I felt sorry for the guys" following the Queen Mary disaster).

All we have are observations:

1. As the 70's dawned Carl was the leader of the band, both in studio, and on stage.  Would Blondie and Ricky have been brought on board without Carl? 

2. By '76 he had lost leadership to Mike.  If it were not a family business he probably would have departed the band.  He seemed to have stopped writing songs.

3. About the same time his marriage began to fail, a rift developed with Brian and he developed a drug problem.

4.  He is pretty much absent from MIU.  A look at performances from 77 and 78 show a guy who does not want to be on stage.  This kills performances because Carl was central to the show.

5.  He cleaned himself up in '79.  Started contributing songs and became a great performer again (he is the star of the show at Knebworth.

6. He tried going solo and it didn't work.

7. His relationship with Brian remained strained until a few years before his death.

8. He garnered a great deal of respect.  Reading obituaries and comments following his death the constant theme is about what a great human being he was - More so than one would have expected to see.


Given that my guess as to what went on with him is as follows:

1.  The removal as leader of the band, his rift with Brian and the end of his marriage were probably connected someway and were strong contributors to his drug use.

2. My sense is that he did not buy into the 'Brian is Back' hype but did not know what to do about it.

3. He might have felt trapped in the 76-78 era.  The money was good but emotional toll was great.

4. By 1982 he just gave into it.  Maybe he realized that Beach Boys would never be an outlet for any creative ambitions he might have but reconciled himself to it.  By this time he was in another relationship, had great sons and maybe he figured that there were worse things than being paid a lot playing great music every night.

It seems though that with Carl there are more questions than answers:

1. What was his relationship with Mike like?   From 1961 to 1981 the one constant on stage was Mike and Carl.  While Carl was away (or in the bag)  the band sucked - even Mike must have known that. 

2. What was the rift with Brian about? 

3.  He and Dennis appeared tight (he was going to be in Dennis band for the aborted tour).  Dennis could be difficult.  Were there any issues related to running interference for Dennis.

4.  He stopped producing after Holland (except for being "Mixdown Producer" on Love You which I took to mean he finished Brian's work) - he didn't even produce his solo work - why?

In regards to the Carl and Brian rift has anybody else noticed that Carl seems VERY uncomfortable around Brian in the "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" doc.

 As to why Carl's songwriting dried up, lets face it he was never the most prolific of writers even at his peak. 2 a year seemed to be the average. However he did write a couple of blinders post Holland - don't forget both "River Song" and "Rainbows" have his name alongside that of Dennis as co writer. We assume they were written primarily by Dennis but who really knows just how much input baby brother had?

I think when the whole "Brian's (not actually) Back" campain happened Carl took it kinda hard that all his amazing accomplishments as leader were forgotten in a flash the second Brian wanted back in and must have felt that the record company didn't really give a toss if he wrote anymore songs or not.

No way would I credit Carl with 'writing' those titles. My guess is that he got the credit for tweaking the lyrics a bit (as per "Holy Man" - you don't think Taylor Hawkins 'wrote' that, I take it ?) - both songs were several years old by the time the POB sessions started.

I always thought Carl didn't really see himself as a "Beach Boys" kind of songwriter, and the few good songs he did were sort of consciously in the vein of brother Bri. In other words, he naturally wrote songs like those on  his solo album and the later BB albums, and maybe he felt like a poser when he just aped his brother's style. Just athought....

Considering he was the one who ruined the reunion in 1996, I think you can safely replace "years" with "months."

If Carl had produced his own solo albums they could've been a lot better IMO. Carl's strength was producing.

I am not so sure that Brian returning to the studio is the main reason for Carl's set back. For whatever reason, the BBs stopped recording regularly after Holland. The set list was fairly progressive until 78(?). It seems that initially Dennis and Carl were excited to have Brian back (watching them sing Bugged at My Old Man - 1976). However, they soon realised that Brian was in no shape to lead the band.

Did Dennis and Carl have much to say about Love You? I know they were embarassed by MIU which I believe was more Mike and Al lead then Brian.

It also seems that Mike has had nothing but good to say about Carl. What other BB could you say that about?   

I do wonder about "Rainbows" through, as it seems to be the only Dennis song post '69 that was wrote via the guitar as opposed to being composed from a piano so maybe/maybe not?

Speaking of "Holy Man", the Taylor Hawkins version is just amazing. It almost feels as if Dennis is singing through Taylor.

I have never really read any of Mike's comments on Carl.  What has he said?

Not much. But the little he has said is positive. But come to think of it, nobody in the BBs has ever said much negative about Carl. The usually comments are that he had a great voice, he was a sweet guy and a good on stage leader. The only negative is that he is not as gifted as his brothers.

While neither Carl nor Dennis were as gifted as their big brother, which one was perhaps the more talented? Interesting topic for its own thread maybe?

Carl = better singer and producer & Dennis = better songwriter.*




*Exception to every rule - "The Trader" is my 4th all time favourite Beach Boy track.

my vague understanding was that Carl had a handful of songs lined up for the Holland followup (which I assume would have been in a similar vein to long promised road, trader etc.).  I think its hard to imagine how horrible it must feel to lead a band for years after a certain sound and feel, and work really hard to grow as a producer and songwriter, and then to finally have a real shot at mainstream success and then....release 15 big ones.  Brian Mike and Al never really had real artistic ambition (brian after 197ish obviously).  Even Love You doesn't seem like Brian trying hard so much as it seems like Brian being so talented it doesnt matter how hard he tries.  So for Carl and Dennis, who had very real artistic ambitions that they clearly took seriously...it must have been a hell of a blow.  Also, in my opinion, Carl's first solo album and also the TV appearances he did to promote it show a man really happy, excited to be playing rock and roll, having a good time, making music he wants to make.  Is it great music...maybe not, but its contemporary sounding, and a heck of a lot of fun.  But I think having his solo career just completely bomb commercially and go nowhere must have been a real blow.  Followed immediately by the death of his brother, who he had clearly been close to.  It's really not surprising at all that he stopped trying after that. 

The deeper I go into researching the band, and the more I read about them, the more pissed off I get at Carl. Sorry if that offends a few people here, but it's the truth. Something about Carl really changed around the time of Love You. We all know how it all came to a peak during the Australian tour a year later. I don't know if it was the drugs, the fighting, or maybe bad managment. But something seems to have made Carl not really care about fighting for the group anymore. After Dennis died, I think he just finally totally gave up. The obvious question is, why didn't he leave the group again, but this time for good?

He failed once in 81 and he dont want to lose the money ...what else could he do?

It is a shame for sure that he stopped trying but to be fair on the man  he swam against the tide for several years before finally realising it was futile to keep trying. It just became obvious to all involved that the masses didn't want anything more from the band beyond the likes of a "Barbara Ann" or "I Get Around" and that any new album would just be an excuse for the record company to have something new to shill when the "Touring Jukebox" came to town.

I'm glad that Carl was the one after 81 that got the band back together and rehearse again. They sound way better from then on.

Carl said in a couple of post-1980 interviews, and I'm paraphrasing, "Without Brian in charge/control, it's not really worth doing...", or something to that effect, referring to new Beach Boys' albums. I think Carl realized earlier, after the 15 Big Ones/Love You debacle, that Brian was more "gone" than initially thought. I sometimes think that depressed Carl more than anything else, seeing that genius/gift/person/brother a shell of his former self.

Why did Carl stay? I also saw interviews with Carl where he stated that he still loved performing, playing for people, playing Beach Boys' music. I mean, who wouldn't. By that time, they were a well-oiled machine. I guess playing timeless music, being good at your profession, getting standing ovations, adulation, and being a "Beach Boy" was too hard to give up. But that wasn't all to be sure - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Personally, I tend to think he stayed to keep the peace---to not upset the family. He was always the stabilizer.

That's it. The Beach Boys probably would've broken up a long time ago if they weren't all family

I think all Carl's decisions were perfectly understandable and justifiable if you walked in the guy's shoes.  I mean, he really tried to reinvent the band in the '70s, made some interesting music, but in terms of commercial relevance, Mike's vision of the band won out.  Without the record sales, and with the reality of where their live audience was at starting them in the face every night, Carl couldn't advance the band's artistic vision any further, and why should he kill himself trying?  He'd had his shot, and the records he produced and/or wrote didn't sell.  In the cold hard calculation of the record industry, that's that.

And it's not like he didn't pitch in when there was room for him to do so.  I mean, look, the guy basically saved the '85 album.  Without Carl's contributions on there, what have you got?  Not a heck of a lot.  I don't see where Carl's writing would have fitted on SIP or STILL CRUISIN', and if he'd tried, he just would have compromised himself.  He did offer "Run Don't Walk" (a fine tune IMHO) for the proposed '96 album, and that would have fit great.

The thing that puzzles me about Carl was killing the reunion in 95/96. "You're Still a Mystery" and "Soul Searching" were not Pet Sounds material, but they were good songs. Couldn't he have fought for Brian to come up with BETTER songs instead of walking out for good because of a song he didn't like. He could have gotten "Run Don't Walk" on, and I think Carl would have been the perfect person to propose doing a Dennis track the way the Beatles did with the John songs for the Beatles Anthology.

It's just hard to picture a guy whose vocals were all over Summer in Paradise drawing an artistic line in the sand then.

As for being on stage, there was a clip that used to be on YouTube that summed it up perfectly. It was circa 88, and Carl did a beautiful version of "Forever." He performed it perfectly, and at the end told the audience, "That's a Dennis Wilson song for you guys."

Then Mike brought out the cheerleaders.

Carl must have known the best way to get the great music out there was as a Beach Boy, where the audiences (and money) would be, and he would have to tolerate Mike.

I think Carl loved performing too, and that was one of his major motivations for staying with the band.


Yep, you're right on the money, Adam. I totally agree with that assessment.

It's still there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55XBMJ_ZM58

I must admit on a personal basis I watched this with my son and he left the room in disgust when the cheerleaders were brought out. I wasn't that far from it, playing "Forever" sums up everything that the BB should have been doing in 1988 and everything they weren't except on a special occasion. Having said that, Carl is basically the only BB that (with one exception, The Paley sessions, which I'm still angry about) acted rationally and whose actions didn't usually lead to a stand off or argument. He did everything for his family, for the peace, for the good of the band. In almost every performance I've seen of Carl excepting the Australia debacle he's giving 100%, loving every minute (except when someone makes a mistake) and doing a damn fine job. The heart and soul of the group.

I'm still thinking the BB should have broke up after Dennis died.

That video is very depressing or maybe i just drank too much this weekend...

Amen.

Carl's actions re: the Paley sessions make more and more sense when you realize that (as I've come to think) that he came to care more about Brian as a person than a musician. He'd come to realize that he couldn't depend on Brian to guide the band. He saw how the mid-70s comeback ended up nearly killing BW. He saw how a solo career, under Landy, did nearly the same thing.

I think it must have been painful, to say the least, to think that Brian might have been setting himself up for another flameout like that in the mid-90s. I think that's what Carl, deep down, worried about. And to see his brother essentially handled by an entire new group -- Paley, Was, Melinda -- must have set off the "here we go again" alarm bells. This wasn't Brian. This was another circus act. And if the music was only okay -- not great, not amazing, certainly not commercial -- why bother? Better to spend time with his brother while he still could, repair the actual relationship, and let the music alone.

I don't agree with that necessarily, but I think Carl might have seen it that way.

Clay, your scenario makes perfect sense, but something just doesn't sit right with the scenario of Carl of Carl hearing "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" in ANY production and going "nope, not good enough." ESPECIALLY when you've sludged through 15 years or so of "Problem Child"'s, "Happy Ending's" and "Summer of Love's." Fundamentally, it's skewed: you'd think just on a personal, musical level he would appreciate the artistry of those two songs and ignore the personal BS and enviornment. He loved music, this is the man that continually praised things like "Please Let me Wonder," the backing track to "Sloop John B," "This Whole World" these were his bread and butter and what he appreciated. And for him to veto things like "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" just doesn't sit right with me.

I'm sorry for derailing, I can suggest one of two scenarios: he was sick already, might not have even known it. I remember AGD saying that by the beginning of 1996 he was visibly not well and remember this was November 1995. That or he had somehow (and I'm straining not to make this sound dramatic) he had gotten sucked into the nostalgia, commercial aspect of the band and couldn't find his way out. Like a Brother certainly bears out the latter.

Remember that Carl also mixed down Love You, Brian's most challenging album and sang his heart out on the most crackpot of
Adult/Child material. He also was one of Brian's closest companions during Pet Sounds, when the atmosphere was questionable and Marilyn dissaproved of it.

All of it is just one big tangled mess and I don't think anyone knows the full answer.

Hm, I've always wondered what she thought of Brian's music and what she thought when he switched directions with Pet Sounds and Smile. Did you mean Mike or Marilyn? Sorry to stray so far off topic, but...

I think she loved Pet Sounds (Marilyn) but she didn't care for Tony or the crowd he attracted. One of the experts could better fill you in.

That's always been my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

From my first memories of reading about him, the first thing I thought about Carl Wilson was this - what you see is what you get. Of all of the Beach Boys, Carl was the least prone to bullshitting. He was certainly the warmest and most inviting of any of them. A perennial albatross, always up in the air, doing his own thing while still being democratic with the group.

Brian essentially had Carl as his right-hand man. And Carl was always around for his brother. And we all know that Carl was in genuine awe of his brother's talents. For someone as sensitive (in a good way) as Carl, watching his brother slowly burn out personally (forget creatively, that's a THREAD), especially when his brother was the reason he managed to become famous and successful could only have been among the most crushing blows ever dealt to him.

When Brian retreated, a whole lot of responsibility went onto Carl's (as well as Dennis') shoulders. Early on, forced to scramble and improvise around Brian's inconsistent bursts of creativity, Carl was able to develop into a much more talented artist at a rate almost as amazing as Brian had a few years before. And Carl's hard work was certainly of great artistic merit, and led the way for the band's evolution from America's preeminent pop group to a great recording and touring rock band. The world caught on too late to Carl's efforts, and by the time they were recognized, the band was starting to slow their progression to a crawl, finally sidestepping, and taking a huge step back. While I am quite sure Carl was not one to piss on or try to lessen the value the band's initial success, all of his work from when Brian stepped back to when the oldies show came running back in full force must have been disheartening for him.

There is, of course, this one conflicting story, which came from Jim Guercio, who had mentioned to the band back in late 1973 that while the shows were good, they were too loose and the audience was inconsistently entertained depending on how well-versed they were in the Beach Boys' music. He recommended that they add more of the oldies to the setlist. And the response from all of the touring band was a unanimous "yes". Where this fits in is anyone's guess.

The Beach Boys were certainly easily convinced by the almighty dollar to jump on the relentless touring bandwagon once Endless Summer became successful. There was money to be made, and they jumped at the opportunity. Sure, it's one thing to be artistic but quite another to be artistic and working from gig to gig just to survive. Carl, as the leader during their period in the desert in the early 1970s, was quite aware of that kind of burden. Their finances dropped fast, and by 1971 they were financing their tours with Brian's royalties. And this is where the conflict comes in.

Carl did want to be an artist. But once confronted with a rapidly declining Brian and Dennis on and off stage, his own troubles with Michael and Al, his marriage falling apart, and his drug and alcohol problems, he was forced to choose what was more important to him. And this was where the Beach Boys, while they were his bread and butter, became secondary to family.

Carl was able to exorcise his demons, and he wanted to have his brothers cleaned up and brought back to prominence within the group. He was a man of great patience when it came to Brian's often embarrassing live performances and rapidly lackluster studio work, and the issue of Dennis and Michael being at each other's throats would have driven most sane people over the edge. Carl was diplomatic and let Dennis off for a time to get his act together. And Dennis was able to get back in decent shape for a bit before spiraling out of control again.

But once it became obvious that it was a situation of life or death for both Brian and Dennis, Carl decided enough was enough. Family had to come first. His brothers and cousin took priority. He was instrumental in getting Brian back under Landy's care, which, while it was a bad move in the long run, was at least enough to allow Brian to return to a healthy frame of mind. And he certainly tried what he could to help Dennis. Dennis was guided by his own whims and not even the patience of Carl was enough to convince Dennis beyond a few couple-day stints in rehab. Carl even let Dennis stay with him at one point in 1983 when Dennis was homeless.

The loss of Dennis was the first blow. You can see it all over Carl's face in the press conference video the day after Dennis died. Something inside of him was gone. He had lost one of his brothers, and Brian was slowly going back to being himself. Carl's responsibility as the leader of the Beach Boys was still of importance to him; he wanted to be sure the fans were treated to a good time every day they performed. Everyone knows the stories of Carl's charity and kindness with the fans. Family still came first. I will never say that Carl gave up. He was too good to just give up on the Beach Boys and the fans. But they did become a lesser priority. And that's why as time went on, his input in the songwriting department slowed to a crawl.

When it came to the reunion in 1995, I'm sure Carl had modest expectations as to how Brian would deliver. But it soon became obvious, no matter how great the material was, that Brian was essentially being controlled again. Not by the drugs, but by his handlers. And this was something of which Carl wanted no part. He wanted to work with Brian, not with Brian's handlers. And Carl being the lucky person to put a half-hearted vocal down on Dancing The Night Away? I would have thrown up my arms and walked out too. It was a circus. This wasn't his brother he was working with. He was working with his brother's handlers. He preferred to do the right thing and walk away. And honestly, considering what Brian's subjected us to in the last fifteen years, Carl did us a favor. The show would go on, but if Brian wasn't going to be himself, then Carl wanted nothing to do with it.

It amazes me that people have the gall, the fucking nerve, to say Carl "gave up". Need I remind anyone what Carl did when he was diagnosed with his cancer? He went right back out on tour. He was the consummate professional, performing every night. He was certainly not without difficulties while doing so; he was confined to a stool for most of the shows, standing up occasionally when he took a lead vocal, and always for God Only Knows. He needed oxygen after every single song. A lesser man would have taken a cancer diagnosis as a death sentence. Carl Wilson kept putting himself out there until he couldn't anymore. People then say that Michael was a motherfucker for saying that he couldn't bear to see Carl onstage and wanted him gone. He couldn't bear to see Carl onstage in the condition he was in. I don't know how that makes Michael a motherfucker. And it's not like Michael wanted Carl "gone". He wanted Carl to try with every part of himself to beat his illness and get back out there. And I'm quite sure Carl wanted that too. Anyone who doubts that is a truly sick individual.

Carl Wilson was a trooper right until he breathed his last. He was, by far, the most levelheaded man in the group. And he was one of the lucky ones who was around to receive all of this adoration from his fans, rather than receiving it posthumously.

He didn't give up. Nature stepped in. Carl Wilson was not a quitter.

God Save Carl Wilson.

That...was...one of the best posts I have ever read on this forum. I'll give a more detailed response in a little while. But yeah, man, that was cool.

Mind = blown. What a brilliant post - very, very, very well said, in every way.

*APPLAUSE*!!!!!

Cheers dude, nicely done.

A very clear assessment of Carl's situation, well done!


The last time I saw Carl, in June 1997, was a profoundly moving experience. He used GOK as a means of reaching out to the audience, to tell us how much he appreciated us, his fans, by locking eyes with individuals in the crowd and singing the verses directly to them. At the end of the song, a group of us stood up and yelled "We love you, Carl!" in unison. He bowed to us. Other fans held up signs of support and he acknowledged each one of them. He was a consummate trouper to the end.


Amen, brother, amen!

That was a brilliant and incredibly moving post, Richard.  Thank-you.

I'm sorry, I just can't take the anti-Brian stance in this respect: I think in 1995 with "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" he was firing on all cylinders and it is one of the few times in the travesty that is the post-Dennis career of the band I can wholeheartedly love the songs. Remember that Carl walked out of THESE sessions, not the "Dancin' the Night Away" sesions.

"People then say that Michael was a motherfucker for saying that he couldn't bear to see Carl onstage and wanted him gone. He couldn't bear to see Carl onstage in the condition he was in. I don't know how that makes Michael a motherfucker. And it's not like Michael wanted Carl "gone". He wanted Carl to try with every part of himself to beat his illness and get back out there. And I'm quite sure Carl wanted that too. Anyone who doubts that is a truly sick individual."

Ummm... well... I've had a conversation repeated to me, by someone who was there... and I'll just say, Mike didn't come out of it smelling of roses. I know he's an advocate of 'tough love', but...

My guess is that Carl became frustrated and just gave in.

After Brian tanked and left the 70's up to the rest of the band, Carl did a great job trying to assume the leadership position.  That said, I believe that the band had grown so accustomed to Brian providing them with their next move, their next hit, etc., that when that dried up, the lack of overall leadership from the entire band led them to the beginning of the rolling jukebox era.

Mike didn't want the formula f'd with and with Dennis drifting away and Al's contributions minimal, maybe Carl tried to make his statement in '81 but just out of frustration gave up.

Considering how frustrated we fans are, imagine being a member of the band.............

A simple question.... Why are we singling out Carl as the Beach Boy who gave up or gave in?

In fairness, we could take a poll to ask who gave up first.

I am not saying that he was the only one. They all did in a sense. But Carl seemed to be the one healthy voice left in the 1980s that had been fighting to keep the BBs fresh and not formulaic. Perhaps the fact that his two biggest allies were no longer able to help him was a big reason. But probably the main reason was money. I would say that when Carl and Al became 'allies', that Carl moved more to the right then Al did to the left. And Mike kept pulling further to the right. BB85 seemed to be the last time Carl attempted to keep the BBs contemparary. In any case, as someone has stated, he NEVER gave up his love for the fans.

I think the original question that was posed was more why Carl's songwriting dried up rather than why he stopped caring about the group. Let's face it Mike wrote more in the mid '80s to early 90's than ever and Al and Bruce still came up with material  for each new release but Carl seemed to be more a gun (or should that read voice) for hire. Can't escape the fact that whoever's supplying the bulk of the material is leading the band. The late 60's early 70's may have been an exception but that is because Carl had so many half finished Brian songs to draw from that he worked into shape.*

The period we are discussing is around the time Carl hit 40. Rock is essentially a young man game. I'm not saying 40 is ready for the glue factory but the desire to take on the world with your music is probably fading by that point. He must have realised there are people with worse jobs in life than playing timeless music to screaming fans the world over for megabucks and probably just decided to roll with it.

* You could argue he deserved co writing credits on "Sail on Sailer" and "Marcella".

Well, he was still writing after BB85 (how many years was "Like a Brother in Development") so my guess is that he gave up on the band has a creative outlet.

I remember reading an early 80's (perhaps 82) interview where he seemed to acknowledge the quandary the band was in and stated that he would like to give an album one more shot.  Perhaps BB85 was that shot.  His material is certainly head and shoulders above anything else on the record.

Carl didn't give up on the Beach Boys, he just somewhat gave into the Mike Love nostalgia machine.

That's what I mean. He fought against the nostalgia machine for a long time.

That was my point too.  You can only fight for so long and give Mike credit I guess, he rushed to the front with more of the material.

more like tThe Mike Love Cheese machine.

A good point to remember is what Carl was quoted on saying not that long before his passing that "Music is spiritual". That to me says he DID keep the faith and that it all still mattered to him. He had no doubt realised that whilst any new music from the group would never be taken that seriously again the upside was that in 100 years time the classic Beach Boys recordings would still be as beloved as they are today. Not many of todays groups can say that.

I am not so sure that it is much different today. Back in the 60s, the WW2 generation thought that rock n roll was garbage. In 30 years, gen xers will talk about how great the music was in the 80s and 90s and how its just not the same in 2025. Personally, I think there has always been a small percentage of gems amongst all of the comercial trash.

Sorry. Getting off on a different subject here.

Don't be sorry as it's a good point. No matter how bad modern music may now sound to us 30+, to some 16 year old girl crap like Usher is brilliant. One day she'll be bemoaning the state of modern music to her kids. When Carl said "music is spiritual" I believe he meant that any song out there is going to connect with someone in some way and hold a meaning to them.

Gave up? He led it that machine musically. He built it. It was Carl who reformed the BBs in the early 80s as a well-tuned machine that could perform on an equal level 200 nights a year. It was him who recruited Foskett and had the rest of the guys go back to their original part. As energetic  and current as they could be, the BBs had been a musical mess for years (and an embarrassment for a year or two). And he had a heck of a good time performing. Do not patronize Carl for thinking as a beach boy and not as a beach boys fan.

I'm pretty sure Foskett joined the Beach Boys when Carl was on hiatus in late 1981. 

Foskett was brought on near the end of 1981 by Michael. Michael had hired Foskett as bandleader for a limited solo tour he did in 1981 to promote Looking Back With Love, and decided he'd fit with the Beach Boys. Carl kept him when he returned in 1982, but he fired Michael's other addition to the band, bassist Ernie Knapp, literally, upon rejoining the group.

Jeff's first BB tour was the 1981 Christmas/New Year visit to Sun City in South Africa.

Flag on the play ! This 200-shows-a-year thing is beginning to bug me. Don't care who says it, just isn't true - the most shows they played a year was about 150, and that included overseas touring. Looky here:


1980     65
1981   105
1982   115
1983   116
1984     84
1985     78
1986   105
1987   142
1988   142
1989   106

Another myth....BUSTED~!

One day I will start a Beach Boys Mythbusters thread.

In a related thought, does anybody else really dig the album that Carl produced for Ricci Martin "Beached"?  It certainly sounds like the missing link in Carl's production history, connecting the gritty classic rock with the more smoothed over adult contemporary sound he'd adopt on his solo albums and the BB85 LP.  There's some truly marvelous stuff here, for instance, the opener "Stop Look Around" is just sublime.  Quirky but appropriate lyrics, great Carl backing vocals (love the "Oh-O-oh!" in the second verse) and even an delicious appearance of the ARP Strings Synth, which Dennis also favored immensely in the late 70s.  Also featured on this album is "Everybody Knows My Name", a mid tempo rocker which has Ricci straight-up cloning Carl's vocal style, right down to the syllables.  If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this song offered up to the Beach Boys during the 15 Big Ones sessions?  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Here's "Stop Look Around":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csfnErCT-LI

I believe someone in another thread mentioned that Dennis plays drums on this track as well.  Any other fans?

I don't like Beached as much as I do The Flame LP but it is a good album. The two songs you mentioned are real standouts. It's a whole lot better then what Carl did solo.