The Smiley Smile Message Board

Can't believe it's 40 years this year since the fabulous Sunflower album was first released.
It wasn't regarded very highly at the time by many critics, but I loved it the very first time I heard it, and still do.
It's nice to see its reputation has, quite rightly,  grown with the years.
For me, Tears In The Morning is the outstanding track, but This Whole World and Forever run it pretty close.
After Pet Sounds and Friends, I'd say it's one of my all-time top Beach Boys albums. Great stuff!

Eh, Tears in the Morning is awful, the real sore spot on the album. To each his own, however.

I personally think that Sunflower's reputation will continue to grow. "All I Wanna Do" to "Cool, Cool Water" is one of the most gorgeous and psychedelic pop sequences in all of recorded music. Lays waste to pretty much everything around it IMO.

I bought the LP in 1975.  Still a favorite.
"At My Window" is still to me the best song on there. Followed closely by "This Whole World", Add Some Music",
"Cool, Cool Water", "Forever" and of course "Our Sweet Love".

Big Bri

I flip flop on Tears. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't. The tag is WAY too long that's for sure.

I think At my Window is the sore spot. Nice harmonies but it's kinda uninspired.

I have to be in the right mood for "Tears". Sometimes I love it, other times I groan as soon as the drums start. "Add some Music" is my favourite off this one. Although I must confess I really like "Deirdre" at the moment. I have not stopped listening to it this past week or so. Dare I say the Denny stuff on here is just a tad overrated. Many refer to Sunflower as his album but to me the BW owns this one!!

Always been a huge fan of "At My Window", in terms of overall sound and production I think it's just gorgeous.

Sunflower as a whole strikes me as the one record in the group's catalogue where each members' individual personalities really come to shine: Brian's tunes are both incredibly catchy ("This Whole World") and experimental ("Cool Cool Water") here; Carl seems to keep it all together and adds some of the most incredible production touches ever heard on a pop record (IIRC he was largely responsible for "All I Wanna Do"); Mike is in very fine voice throughout and I hope he's real proud of what he contributed to "All I Wanna Do"; and so on... It really is a special album.

A few thoughts on Sunflower:

1.  It just came out at the wrong time.  If it had been released in 1974 , 75 or 76 it would have sold millions of copies.

2. As was their habit they selected the wrong song as the first single.  My choice would have been "Slip On Through" followed by "All I Wanna Do" followed by "Forever".

3. "All I Wanna Do" is Mike's best performance ever.

4.  If it had succeeded would Blondie and Ricky have become Beach Boys?  I suspect not.  Also, I suspect that 'Surfs Up',  "CATP" and "Holland" would have sounded very different.

The baby talk in At My Window makes me cringe every time. But it has many fine attributes apart from that.

Sunlower was the first BB LP I bought at time of its first release. Still love it. Come to think of it, it was a gift at that time. Had no dough for records then. Still have that copy....but how can it be 40 years old?  :)

Bought the LP when it was released-Superb vocals and engineering. CCW, TITM, IAT all got significant airplay on FM. Probably the best singing in their history.

One of the most beautiful albums ever

Agreed. "Forever" is a classic, along with "SoT"; "IAT" is a great performance but not the best song; and "GTKTW" is uninspired in my opinion. Brian's songs, however, are all top notch, and his voice saturates the record like it hadn't done in a while. If it had been successful, I'm sure we would've seen Brian come back full force. He was clearly into the project (heavy involvement, even taking pictures with the band!), but unfortunately it failed and he sunk further into his tortured psyche. I think "Sunflower" bombing worst than almost any other BB record was the final straw for the head Wilson.

Sunflower is my personal favorite of all Beach Boys albums unless we factor the Smile recordings in the equation. But that's another THREAD.

I can certainly understand why the album was a bomb in 1970 as I'm not some totally glossy-eyed fan who can't believe why even their most uncommercial stuff wasn't popular with the public, but that's not a bad thing per se. The band were just not in good standing with the public at the time. I consider it their version of a "singer-songwriter" album - a much more relaxed sound, predominantly acoustic, with an emphasis on the slow grooves. There are plenty of great production tricks, but also a whole lot of maturity in the songwriting, and the lyrics seem to fit the 1970 frame of mind even though the lack of irony certainly dated it from the start - the total abundance of irony in the lyrics on Surf's Up seemed to fit more with the times than Sunflower did. But that's nitpicking. It's the album that made me the fan I am today. I love it.

People seem to trash Bruce's songs on Sunflower, but...I don't believe they would have fit on any other album. Michael's lyrics were never better than on this LP. Dennis of course hit his first real artistic peak. Brian's songs are among his finest and most underrated. I like to think of it as one of those happy moments in the band's existence where the planets were in a rare state of alignment - they seemed to be in good spirits in 1969-70.

Of course there are so many woulda coulda shouldas with Sunflower - the material that was recorded during the sessions but passed over was also of a considerably high quality. Not that the band ever would have released a sort of White Album or anything, but it's always fun for the CD burner.

Well said. Sunflower is even more of a "woulda coulda shoulda" album for me than Smile. Couple track changes and it's perfect, but either way should've made a much larger impact. And it is great for the burner--I made a mix with all the songs and outtakes in order of recording, good fun.

Sunflower is my second favorite BB album after only Pet Sounds (maybe the greatest album ever made?), but it sometimes will revolve with Love You in that position. It's amazing, sonically and production wise. I feel that this is the strongest offering THE GROUP ever made, Brian's done better work elsewhere but his work here is still sterling. Lovely vocals throughout.

One point is that I know the BB were uncool and album sank like a stone (and the BB, aside from Dennis, were still not cool I will admit) but I think if you would've put out "Slip on Through" with good promotion as another artist it would've had a chance at a decent hit. Not a monster, but a decent hit. It's VERY in tune with what was popular and a very catchy song.

Too... many... acronyms... can't... figure out... what's being talked about... *GUHHFFfff*...

If you think that was a questionable choice, what do you think about the follow-up choices of "Tears In The Morning" and "Cool Cool Water"; not exactly singles material. Does anybody think "Cool Cool Water" is slightly overrated?

I agree with most of what's been stated here, except that I absolutely cannot stand Tears in the Morning.  To me, it is just not a well written song.  It's whiney, not vocally phrased well, and it's repetitive.  I usually skip it.  

Another one I skip occasionally (depending on my mood) is At My Window.  It's cute and silly...sometimes it works for me, sometimes I find it annoying.  

My own theory on why Sunflower flopped....one possible reason, anyway....is that 1970 was a relatively bum year in rock, overall.  I remember reading an article in an issue of Stereo Review from 1971, where it itemized all of what made '70 such a lousy year.  The breakup of the Beatles, the deaths of Hendrix and Joplin the previous year;  it was pretty depressing.   I think if Sunflower had been released any other year, it would have been more successful.

No ... I think (among the sort of serious fans who grace this board with their presence) it's significantly overrated. It's nice. Pretty. Ranks among the band's top 75 tunes or so for me, I suppose.

One compendium of best albums of 1970....I haven't plowed thru all 100 yet but there is some good stuff, including Sunflower at #27.  It's not contemperaneous though, I don't think.

http://www.besteveralbums.com/yearstats.php?y=1970

I wish they had hooked up with Rielley a couple of years sooner and he had had two big effects on Sunflower:

1. He had started to get the group back in vogue with the hip crowd before Sunflower came out, so it would have had a chance with the masses.

2. He could have convinced the Boys to withhold Breakaway and Celebrate the News from a the final Capitol single that was bound to go nowhere and have them give lesser songs like We're Together Again and Games Two Can Play for the single.

Then you add Breakaway and Celebrate the News and take off At My Window (definitely the weak link) and either Tears in the Morning or Got to Know the Woman and you've got one of the greatest albums EVER by ANYONE and a million-and-two seller.

Even so, it's a terrific album.

What makes Cool Cool Water such a great tune is that it works in the contexts of both the SMiLE (or BWPS) and SUNFLOWER versions.  In other words, it works with or without the "Is it hot as hell in here" lead.  Just my own observation.

It's certainly ok with me that you feel that way, but "Cool, Cool Water" is actually one of my favorite Beach Boys tracks, ever. Different stuff reaches different people.

I appreciate your blessing.  ;D

I was thinking about this the other day... what if you made Sunflower a more Brian-centric album? It would look something like this:
This Whole World
Add Some Music
All I Wanna Do
Good Time
Take a Load Off Your Feet
At My Window
Loop De Loop
Our Sweet Love
Soulful Old Man Sunshine
When Girls Get Together
Cool, Cool Water

I didn't put "I Just Got My Pay" or "Games Two Can Play" on the list because the production values were too low compared to the rest of the material. This material makes his Love You persona seem like a natural extension of where he was at in '69/'70. The only difference is that the production values were higher back then.

Love this album, too.  You get the best representation of Dennis as the rocker & balladeer. 

In relation to this thread, Brian or his management just posted on Twitter & Facebook the following:
 
'I think "Add Some Music To Your Day" was my best lyric.'

What's really weird to me is that it seems like only yesterday we were marking the 40th anniversary of Pet Sounds. And so that really underscores how short 4 years is... and yet when you look at how much Brian changed over that period of time... it's more pleasant to think of it as 4 long years. Does that make sense? Weird.

Yes, for fans, it was a terrific album. Fully acceptable by BB fans everywhere regardless of what was going on with culture at the time. Only try being a fan in those days.  Scornful responses to the music you loved from 1967 to 1971 were the norm. Play Sunflower at a party and you had an instant downer. As great as you thought this music was, it just wasn't relevant or in synch with the times and if you liked it or owned it, people looked at you like your bowles were on the outside instead of inside. You were weird, passe, and had to work hard to find others who actually liked this great music. Face it, At My Window wasn't going to make them more hip-even with beards.

Perfect album. I like it better than Pet Sounds. ESPECIALLY Tears in the Morning!

I remember hearing Sunflower for the first time. It was paired together with Surf's Up, and I borrowed the cd from the local public library. Before hearing it I remember thinking how its probably going to be more-or-less a nostalgic corny pop album(then again, back then I've only ever heard the hits). But when I heard the opening chords of 'Slip On Through' and then Dennis' vocal, I was like "WHOAH!" I was totally stunned and shocked about the record, and then listening to 'Surf's Up' after  made it all the more surprising because of how much they'd grown artistically. Back then, I've only heard everything up to the Pet Sounds album so thats what made it a shock for me. To me, this album is their best TEAM effort.
In my mind, Pet Sounds was Brian's masterpiece, but Sunflower was The Beach Boys' masterpiece as a whole.

By the way, All I Wanna Do is my favorite song on the album. May be one of my top 5 favorite songs by the band.

Forever is great but I'm not as convinced as most of you that it's a classic. I just can't get into most of Denny's work for some reason.

I first heard it on vinyl the day after i saw Brian Wilson do Smile live. I fell immediately in love with it and I'm still a big fan of that album, even with TITM!

My favorite album period. The coda of Tears is a little much but every other moment is special to me. It has a great flow, they all are peaking, the voices sound as good as ever. Sunflower is magnificent.

One of their very best. To make it even better, I'd replace "Tears in the Morning" with "Fallin' In Love (Lady)" and "Slip On Through" with "Break Away."

I think Sunflower didn't sell well because the record buying public's taste varies and just because an album is great doesn't mean it'll sell millions of copies, and vice versa.

I love Sunflower.  Favorites: It's About Time, At My Window, Slip On Through, Deirdre, Forever, All I Wanna Do.  Least favorite: Tears In The Morning.

"Sunflower" without "Slip On Through"?  NO WAY!  :)

 Thank God they didn't go with a more Brian-centric approach, if that line-up is anything to go by! Ditching Slip On Through and It's About Time in favour of Loop de Loop and Take a Load...? Bad move. Dennis's Lady and San Miguel were considered for inclusion on the album and i think they'd have notched the quality up a peg or two if they had.
 I love this album a lot! It's not perfect - the aforementioned Dennis tracks would've fitted in better than Bruce's songs (I don't hate Tears quite as much as some fans do, but it's certainly not a favourite and, to me, it really jars on the album - it just doesn't fit, it sounds out of place. (Nice accordion though).
 I like songs like Deidre and At my Window, but at a time when the band were struggling for hipness these kinda tracks didn't help. I've always thought it would've been nice if Sunflower had been a double album, with the band consentrating on Brian's better quality recent songs and Dennis's songs, as he was really coming into his own at this time. Songs like Sound of Free and celebrate the News deserved a bigger audience than they achieved.
 How's this? (I know, i know, it'd never ever have happened, but hey, good lineup...)

SIDE ONE
1. Slip on through
2. This whole world
3. Add some music...
4. Got to Know the Woman
5. San miguel
6. I'm going your way
 
SIDE TWO
1. The lord's prayer
2. Soulful old man sunshine
3. Mona Kanua
4. Susie cincinatti
5. Deidre
6. It's about Time

SIDE THREE
1. Celebrate the news
2. Breakaway
3. All i wanna do
4. Forever
5. Our sweet love

SIDE FOUR
1. Games two can play
2. Sound of Free
3. Over the waves
4. Lady
5. At my window
6. Cool, cool water

That's a great lineup, but in reality, a double album at that time would have been pretty intimidating to folks who were already trying to follow what the BBs were up to.  That might have ended their career right then and there.

My "what if" would be along the lines of releasing SUNFLOWER as is, and then saving a few of the stronger tracks mentioned in the above post to bump off a few of the clunkers on SURF'S UP, like "Don't Go Near the Water", "Take a Load Off", etc.  It may not have changed the sales figures any, but at least you'd have 2 super strong BB albums and maybe they would have been able to generate some momentum over the next couple of years.

God bless Warner for being a pain in the ass. We'll never agree on an ideal line-up, but the one that got released is very acceptable, and we know that the more tracks teh boy shad available for a master, the more chances of screwing up. :-)

IMO The Brian songs that were included were the good ones he had at the time. 'At My Window' (is it an Al song?) is borderline.

All you Tears-In-The-Morning-haters should at least be glad that Bruce changed his original lyrics, which were even more cringe-worthy. As I recall, he originally had one line that said, "And I don't need no nepenthe..." I was gonna say there's probably a good reason you can't name another song which contains the word "nepenthe," but a quick look at Wikipedia shows that it HAS been used a couple of times. Still, I have to wonder how the other BBs felt about that one.

Would've cut "Tears" and "Got to Know" and added "Breakaway/Celebrate the News," "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" and maybe "Lady"

Also, some interesting (and positive!) contemporaneous reviews/blurbs. Even a full page ad couldn't sell it. Such a shame what so many people missed out on.

http://www.superseventies.com/spbeachboys4.html

It seems I hear something new with every listen.

Meh, at least you can't accuse his lyrics (and that line) of being overly generic or anything.

I also make myself overlook the fact that out of the songs 3 movements, the final part comprised of fresh material is easily the weakest. Oh well at least it has Brian singing some lead on it and not just passing it over to Carl.

P.S. we seem to have two Sunflower threads running simultaneously here!  :p

For some reason Sunflower didn't click with me at first. I really think ti has a lot to do with the cd, where the vocals sounded quite shrill. It was when I heard a needledrop that I really began to get into it - t just sounded so much warmer than the cd.

For me, Sunflower just feels quintessentially 70s. It's like the musical equivalent of orange & brown flower-print wallpaper, or a yellowed photograph of your childhood. In this respect, the cheesier Bruce tracks, and at my window kind of back up the kitsch-ness and strengthen the feel of the album for me. The only track I could do without is Gotta Know The Woman. I'd swap that for Celebrate The News and it would be perfect. (Actually if Breakaway were in the lineup, it would be a seriously great BB album).

I just thought I'd add my own recollection on hearing Sunflower.

The time must've been either mid or late 70s. I was about eleven years old (I think) and I'd bought the album during lunchtime at school. I don't remember what else I'd heard of  by the band by that time, but I was aware of their music beyond the surfing and car stuff.
I got home and went to my bedroom, put the album on the turntable and plugged in the headphones. Slip on Through was first up - and right away I noticed that this recording sounded different.  At the time I'd been recording my own music in a very primitive way (pre Portastudio days - anyone who's tried to do sound on sound with two el cheapo cassette players will know what I mean...) and so I was already open to the idea that engineering could go a huge way to determining the sound of a recording. My next thought was to stop listening and go down to eat, as I wanted to devote some real time to what I'd just heard.

Afterwards I settled down on top of my bed, headphones once again in place and listened. This Whole World changed a lot of my thinking about recorded music. The first time I heard it (and got over the chord changes) I found that again the sound was captivating and challenging. If there were signposts in my musical life then that track was the biggest. Even now it's something I alway focus on amongst the other gems on that album.

And now many years later and I'm more aware of music, recording, and also my own personal tastes. But when I think of Sunflower I try not to dissect it or examine it too closely anymore. I much rather prefer to allow details in those recordings make themselves known in the wonderful manner that they do.
To my mind Sunflower is the product of everyone involved in it (of course) but at the right time for them. From the writing to the engineering, the arrangements, the production and the performances - everything came together and combined into something much more than its parts. I can't even compare it with Pet Sounds, as I believe that Sunflower is the finest group effort I've ever had the pleasure to hear.

I found a sealed copy at Go-Boy Records in Redonco Beach CA in 1990. I took it home and thought it was lightweight Partridge Family pap, so I filed it away and continued to listen to my triple vinyl Smile Boot 24/7.... Then in 97, I saw the Neil Young/Crazy Horse movie "Year Of The Horse"... There's a part in it where Neil and the guys are practicing the vocal harmonies for "Cortez The Killer" in their tour RV. They all lock into the "she came dancing across the water" part and go over the word "water" a few times until their voices gel. David Briggs is there and he goes "Sounds like Cool Cool Water"! A light bulb went on over my head and I ran to my room and put side 2 or Sunflower on and let Cool Cool Water play! My mind was blown and suddenly the whole record made sense to me and each and every note was heavenly! It's been my second fave BBs album (Holland being # 1) ever since!

Great post, Erik.  That was from the heart and it shows.  Thank you.

yeah I enjoyed that post too. You know I really think it's one of those albums that just clicks. I was listening on headphones tonight and there's something about the way it's produced - it just sounds amazing - very warm, and with quite a bit of space. Plus the vocals sound great. It really is a very special album I think. Definitely becoming one of the more rewarding BB albums for me at the moment.

To me, Sunflower is the true "group" album.  Not a "Brian album that the other guys sang on" and not "tracks from what could be 4 or 5 solo albums moshed together to make a Beach Boys album".  Sunflower is like the whole group being equals, and that helps make it great...

It's kind of sad this album is still underground and unknown after all this time. Other albums that were pretty much ignored, like Odessey & Oracle and Forever Changes, have been recognized but no one gives a sh*t about Sunflower.

Cool little article.  One little nitpick, though.  Smiley Smile was the debut for Brother Records, if you want to get technical.

Funny how all y'all claim to love this LP but insist on fuckin with the track order, or doing substitutions.

C'mon - do you like the album as is, or do you not?  Nuts how everybody has an idea for changing it.

So here is my idea for changing it -- keep the original running order, but segue/butt-splice the tracks.  This would have been a very 1970 FM radio-type fashion statement, like the Moody Blues.  Gives the appearance of a cohesive whole, even though it isn't.  Which, as John Lennon was happy to point out, was the case with Sgt. Pepper.

It's an okay album, with a strong vocal sound, but there's no tracks that have the power of the earlier Beach Boys' hits.  Surf's Up is also a different kind of album, but it has three bona fide star tracks that make the album work for me.

At least Rolling Stone put it in its Top 500 of all time a few years ago (No. 380). Maybe that got at least a couple of people who had never heard it to give it a try.

o god. To each his own, but I'd say at the very least, "This Whole World" and "Forever" have that power you speak of. Just me.

Yeah, what was everybody thinking?  Opinions aren't allowed here!  >:D

This Whole World is a very good song, the best song on the Sunflower album, but it doesn't stay with me the way many Beach Boys' hits do. 

Agreed. In fact, that sounds like a pretty cool line. It'd sure stand out amongst the schmaltz.

someone wanted to subout "got to know the woman". CRAZY TALK!!

but i agree with someone else that some of the high sung notes are a bit shrill

Amen, brother!

For me, taking out "Tears in the Morning" and replacing it with "San Miguel" would make SUNFLOWER a perfect album.  Which is exactly what I did on a recordable CD.  :)

Also, just FYI, I made a compilation CD of all of the Brian-written (or co-written) material from that era (1969-70), as if it were going to be a new, Brian-centric Beach Boys album (which is exactly what Warner Bros. wanted!), and titled it GOOD TIME.

Here's the track listing I came up with:

THE BEACH BOYS: GOOD TIME

1. Soulful Old Man Sunshine   
2. Add Some Music To Your Day   
3. Good Time   
4. This Whole World   
5. Take A Load Off Your Feet   
6. Our Sweet Love   
7. When Girls Get Together   
8. At My Window   
9. I Just Got My Pay   
10. Games Two Can Play   
11. H.E.L.P. is On The Way   
12. All I Wanna Do   
13. Cool, Cool Water

I dunno..... Sometimes Tears In The Morning really does it for me! Bruce's voice sounds great, I think, and it certainly fits with the general mood, feeling of the album! I mean, c'mon, who can't relate to those lyrics sometimes?

Give Bruce some love!

I like Sunflower but I want to make it radically different in a way that likely never would have happened to make it better.

got to know the woman is a cool fun song but surely another dennis track such as Lady would have worked much better. tears doesn't really bother me

I really like it but to be honest Got To know The Woman would have been fine as a b-side to a single rather than an actual "Sunflower" track. In fact it's got "flipside" written all over it. Singles come and then go but albums are for ever so they could have put something a little deeper in it's place on the record.

We BB/BW fans are an odd lot, aren't we.  Just becuase we've spent our lives trying to create a SMiLE LP on our laptops, we think we have the right to change every single Beach Boys album into something much better than it is! ;)

I like Sunflower just fine like it is.  I say leave it be.

But I do agree with the Sheriff that "Cool, Cool Water" is a little overrated.  That said, I have to admit that when I first heard it on an FM rock station in the early 70s, it was love at first listen.  But really, we all know that the reason it's so legendary is the inclusion of "Water Chant", and without that, it would be a kinda quirky, lightweight tune with some really great harmony work at the beginning of it.

One really underrated gem from Sunflower is the Carl Wilson rock workout "It's About Time".  I actually first heard it via the 3-LP "loss leader" Warner Bros. collection Looney Tunes in 1971 (I didn't own a copy of Sunflower until the early '80s).  I remember hearing it and thinking, this is almost another "Good Vibrations", and it rocks my socks off!  From then on, it's always been one of my favorite Beach Boys songs.

I used to think "Cool Cool Water" was a little overrated too, until I paid closer attention to the background vocal performances throughout the final verses. Completely blew me away, though I had known the song for almost ten years already. Now it's probably my second-favorite song on Sunflower right after "This Whole World".

There is nothing wrong with "Tears in the Morning". Its a beautiful piece of work and the end fade-out is really gorgeous.