The Smiley Smile Message Board

Since there have been some Smile posts floating around again, I figured now was as good a time as any to ask another one of those impossible Smile questions. Was there a Heroes and Villains Part 2?  I have never heard a definitive answer to the question. Sure, in the session tapes the engineer can be heard slating a take as "Heroes and Villains Part 2", but this doesn't necessarily mean that the recording was a "part 2" song--in the Smile era it could just as easily mean "the second part of the song Heroes and Villains".

At some points I have been convinced that all the vocal riffs that are collectively lumped together as H&V Part 2 (and show up on the GV box set as the "extra" parts of H&V) could actually all be experiments for a potential chorus, which would come after the opening verses of the song. On the Cantina mix of H&V the second part of the song ended up being the wordless vocal variation that we hear after the main opening section. (On the eventual single release version of H&V this section is pushed further back into the song, but is still there). Also on the Cantina version, just before the tape-feedback explosion near the end of the track, you can hear a wordless version of one of the vocal sections lumped into the H&V Part 2 group. Plus, the sheer number of extra parts doesn't mean there was a second track--look at how much was recorded for GV.

On the other hand, there are many folks who say there was an H&V Part 2. All those vocal variations do seem to fit together well. It is very plausible that the B-side of the proposed single was going to be a collection of H&V chants.

So what do people think? H&V Part 2, once to be or not to be?

Not to mention all the other parts that are rumored to have at one time or another been in H&V. With Me Tonight, Da-Da, Old Master Painter, I've even heard people say Vegetables was at one point part of H&V.

There is, apparently on one of the boots (maybe archaeology?), a rough edit that appears to sequence these sections together and runs, if memory serves, from gee through to one of the dit dit heroes bits. It even sounds like the swedish frog section has been spliced out and so is configured much the same was as Mark Linnet sequenced these parts in the heroes sections bit. I remember a thread about this previously, and the general consensus was that this boot edit was a vintage Brian edit, although I asked Linnet here if he had based the sequence of his Sections mix on any actual Brian edits and he replied that he just sequenced it on the basis of what parts sounded good together.

My own hunch, based on the boot edit of these sections, is that Part 2 did exist and would have consisted largely of these sections. In the Vosse article he also states that H&V was at one point planned to run across the a & b side of a single.

It's on the SoT box set if memory serves me correctly. The sections flow rather than have the stop-start nature of the official GV box release and, yes, the Swedish Frog section is missing.

I've a track titled "Part 2 Variations"   from something called "Heroes And Villains Sessions - Vol. 2" - don't know the source to be honest; probably a download - which link one of the faster, more produced "do-do-do, heroes & villains" sections with Swedish frog. My guess is that BW mixed that in the sequence, then nipped out the Swede Frog section.


(I am going by memory here -  my CDs are in crates so no I'm afraid I can't respond to PMs on this!)

Why are your CDs in crates? Was it the wife?

Wait wait wait WAIT.... "The Old Master Painter" was once part of H&V?  I definitely have to redo my mix, I think...

What about "Do You Like Worms"?  That seems like it would fit as a (looong) bridge between parts 1 & 2, instead of just the Bicycle Rider theme...

Oh, and that "Swedish Frog" nickname always bothered me - it's "Swedish for water!"

I used to think it was "Swedish meatballs". No kidding. 

Incidentally, there IS a chunk of H&V in the Project Smile CD-Rom that is clearly "Mama Says", so that explains the 'Vegetables' theory - perhaps "Mama Says" was meant to be part of "I'm In Great Shape" at one point?

There is, apparently on one of the boots (maybe archaeology?), a rough edit that appears to sequence these sections together and runs, if memory serves, from gee through to one of the dit dit heroes bits. It even sounds like the swedish frog section has been spliced out and so is configured much the same was as Mark Linnet sequenced these parts in the heroes sections bit. I remember a thread about this previously, and the general consensus was that this boot edit was a vintage Brian edit, although I asked Linnet here if he had based the sequence of his Sections mix on any actual Brian edits and he replied that he just sequenced it on the basis of what parts sounded good together.

My own hunch, based on the boot edit of these sections, is that Part 2 did exist and would have consisted largely of these sections. In the Vosse article he also states that H&V was at one point planned to run across the a & b side of a single.
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I will have to go back through the Vosse article.  That would be some good, fairly contemporary evidence of the a & b single.

I have heard some of these H&V sections mix and have never known what to make of them. They do sound like BW was clearly tinkering with these extra sections. It makes me very sad that this double sided single never came out.

Well the piano piece that the engineer introduces as Tag to part 1, is clearly Do A Lot, or an early version of it, so I think that section must have started as maybe a tag to the end of part 1 of heroes and then slowly migrated over to Vegetables. That's my take on it anyway.

Smile and Smiley Smile may as well just be called "Hereos and Villains". It seems as though all but a handful tracks had their origins as part of "Heroes and Villains".

(Yes, I know that's an exaggeration, but still - shoot, a lot of tracks really do have their origins in the song)

Well, the ending to the Cantina version was originally the last part of OMP. So it gave OMP a Country and Western feel.

Did many of the album tracks begin in H&V or did H&V begin in the other album tracks? Not sure, but my theory is H&V was in part [entirely it seems in H&V Part 2] showcasing the album by using bits out the album songs with their album track theme stripped or modified for the H&V single. Maybe to emphasize Brian's desire of the times to make albums like Rubber Soul and Pet Sounds that were stand alone songs that went together like pictures in an exhibition?

Maybe "Swedish for water" is the water Element?

I've always thought that sounded odd when I've sequenced it because (assuming YAMS followed OMP) the song sort of has two fades in sequence--the dreary one for Sunshine followed by the Cantina ending.

I've never liked the idea of a H&V II to be honest. When I try and sequence my mixes to replicate a 60's version I always start with Do You Like Worms after Prayer/Gee. H&V has a western vibe, while Do You Like Worms lyrically references Plymouth Rock, which has always made it a natural starter. I Usually use stuff from H&V II to flesh out the rest of the album, I think it's important to fit the heroes and villains theme into as many songs as possible.

Yeah, the cantina ending sounds out of place on OMP to my ears. I think the dreary ending for Sunshine is perfect!

I suspect the False barnyard fade would've been spliced fairly soon into the melting cello fade, rather than having the whole cello fade to nothing, then the False Barnyard fade starting up after that. Just my hunch though. The cello fade sort of sounds like a place holder for the FB fade to me.

Agree absolutely.  The story flows better this way.

Heroes and Villains Part 2...one of the most confusing of all Smile debates.

As far as the existence of a Part 2, it's certainly become conjecture despite all of the evidence that it did exist at one point. There are of course God knows how many test mixes that it's hard to determine what would have constituted a Part 2. I certainly do believe that Brian was all about the "theme" as far as Smile is concerned because parts of Heroes and Villains, Wonderful, and Vega-Tables pop up all over different songs.

But the idea of a Part 2 has been distorted to the point that people believe that Brian was making lengthy test edits, and the lack of audio evidence seems to go against the theory, even though a seven minute version was reported to exist but was lost. I don't know if Brian would have gone far past the three minute window with the Smile songs. Edits exist, of course, but they're merely edits. It's all conjecture and all up for debate.

Brian certainly wasn't going progressive rock on us by any means. The idea of movements, if Peter Reum is to be believed (and he's certainly not one to lie about something like that), was at least "confirmed" in 1981 by Brian himself, but even then, we all know how much Brian would either avoid the question or simply give an off the cuff answer as far as Smile was concerned, owing to him just not wanting to stay on the topic. So Peter could certainly be believed but even then he's going on Brian's word. There was all the talk of a "Barnyard suite" and the links between Heroes and Villains, Do You Like Worms, Vega-Tables, and The Old Master Painter, but it's really hard to pinpoint if those were just ideas or the intention. There is a test edit of the master take of The Old Master Painter, minus vocals, spliced with the "false Barnyard" fade from the Cantina version of Heroes and Villains, but in recent times it's come out that said fade on the Cantina version was not in the original February 1967 edit, and was tacked on during the reissue program in 1989-90. It could make sense in the context of Heroes and Villains being about the Old West, and how the so-called "tape explosion" in the Cantina version before the fade could be equivical to something being "burned" as was very common in the fantasy ideal of the Old West, the movies and all of that. All conjecture.

This is basically my long-winded, fan geek way of saying, well, I got nothing, man.  :lol

Great thread, though.

I've never heard this, more details please.

I forget which one of our fellow kidney stone-suffering brainiacs confirmed that bit about the Cantina version of Heroes and Villains...I remember reading about it a few months back. That's pretty much all of the information I have.

As far as said test edit of The Old Master Painter, it's unbootlegged.

And that's your fault, basically.

It's not my fault if I don't have it in the first place. :)

Seriously though, it DOES circulate via the fan community but it's not considered an "official boot" (lawlz) and the birdies who let it (along with a good six hours of other stuff, Smile and otherwise) fly came dangerously close to being buttfucked by the powers that be. It's on the Secret Smile set. Look for it.

I'm pretty certain that fade was recorded for OMP, so now that H&V edit is not from 1967? Hmmm.

Still leaves all of H&V Part 2 as album track samples re-jiggered to an H&V theme for a single. So the album was not coming from H&V but H&V was coming from the album, you know, presumably.

According to say kidney stone-suffering brainiac (or is it Brianiac?), the Cantina version, up until the "tape explosion" is Brian's edit. The "false Barnyard" was tacked on later, not by Brian.

So the song would abruptly end at the tape explosion? Weird, man  :smokin

What!!?? I had always assumed that alt heroes was a Brian edit, even though the fade does seem to come on a bit abruptly. This seems like major news for all us geeky smile mixers, as that version of H&V seemed like one of the few 'certainties' in the smile story. Does this mean there is no test edit for a complete Heroes & Villains in its pre-smiley state?

Also is there any evidence to suggest Brian intended to use that False Barnyard fade in Heroes & villains at all?

Also you mention the test edit of OMP + False barnyard and that it's on Secret Smile. It is indeed on that boot, but as two separate tracks, albeit next to one another. There is quite a gap between the two tracks - Is this an accurate representation of the complete OMP test edit, as I'd always imagined the cantina fade would be spliced in earlier?

Not sure. I kinda think there would've been more. In my recent tinkering, I have the section that is next to last on the BWPS version (the one with the strings and all) and then I end with the flutter horn.

I share buddhahat's shock and surprise if it is true the Cantina version is not pure legit BW from '67. We know that the fade to Vegetables was tacked on for the Box set, just to throw some more precious Smile era material in there. But I have never heard of the fade to the Cantina mix being added to the end of the song later. I think I would like more of the wise sages to weigh in on the matter before I go change my Smile mix. I have never heard anywhere else that the Cantina mix wasn't all legit BW.

I may need to change my Smile mix, however, because of the observation about OMP + False barnyard. I have always known they were associated with each other.  After all, if you listen close to that one version of False Barnyard you can hear someone (maybe Mike Love?) singing the words to You Are My Sunshine. So it would make sense as a fade to that song. Al Kooper's book seems to suggest that H&V started life in mid-1966 as a bunch of variations on You Are My Sunshine. So there seems to be evidence linking OMP to H&V too. I can buy the idea that OMP was going to be a short track, maybe just OMP + False barnyard fade, after all, on that mysterious handwritten track list, OMP had brackets around it at first, and then someone crossed them out. I have always taken this to mean that who ever was writing the list was unsure if OMP was a stand-alone track or not.

I think that's Dennis, and he's singing "You were my sunshine..."

OK, calm down everybody - the cantina fade is ABSOLUTELY a Brian 1967 edit, where did people get the idea it's not?  alan boyd has shared with us what was on the tape box the cantina safety copy was found in, and the cantina safety copy was not altered when it was tranferred to CD on the SMiley Smile/WH 2fer or on the GV box or anywhere else (well, except being treated to noise reduction on the first release).  The confusion may be from the GV box "Heroes and Villains (sections)" where the cantina ending was edited onto to end of the "Part 2" sections - on bootlegs the Smiley Smile/single "sunny down snuff" a capella ending is grafted onto the end of the sections.

How do we know there was an A and Bsided single?  I think the evidence is good for it:  Vosse remembered in 1969, long before Dominic's theories, that it was to be an A and Bsided single.  Chuck Britz in interviews before his death also recalled it being a 2 sided single, with both parts being completed by Brian.  The tapebox of the released single's chorus, recorded in February, is marked "Side Two."  Mike in June 67 played a six minute tape of Heroes to a reporter, and in March/April a reporter commented on a "five to six minute" version of Heroes.  Both of these were probably the same extended mix that was to be split over two sides of a single.

While there are sessions where "Part 2" is slated, as mentioned above it's hard to know if that means pt. 2 of the A side or "Part 2" the Bside of the single.  But when Brian started recording sessions for "Part 2" in January with a different master number than previous Heroes sessions, that's a pretty good indicator that those sessions were destined for something other than the same A side of the single as the previous sessions.

It was news to me Lou.

I think we un-necessarily torture the evidence sometimes. That is my reading of H&V Part 1 and 2, if it has the H&V master number it was for side 1 and if it has the H&V Part 2 master number it was for side 2. Easy peasy. Aren't I correct in that all [most?] known Part 2 tracks are a sample from a non-H&V album track which had the Wormsy lyrics changed or Fire orchestration changed or the do-a-lotiness removed etc.? Part 2 seems to be H&V variations on themes from the rest of the album tracks. I've been told that something like that, a sampler type master was put together for one of the PS' single but was unreleased. I'd love to have that confirmed or denied.

So I think we have had it wrong in H&V being the incubator for the SMiLE album tracks [even though Carl thought so] and instead the SMiLE album tracks were the incubator for H&V or rather for the H&V single and even then only [mostly] for H&V Part 2.

Phew - all is right with the world!

I'm going to have to track down the post that I read about the Cantina edit only being Brian's up until the "tape explosion" bit. I'm pretty sure I read it on this board or possibly the Shut Down board; I certainly wouldn't make something like that up.  :lol

Not that I'm knocking the Cantina version by any means, nor am I disregarding its authenticity. I'm basically repeating what I remember reading. If I was indeed mistaken, my apologies.

No, he's referring to 'Barnshine'. The 'False Barnyard/Cantina ending' with Mike singing 'You Were My Sunshine' over it, albeit faintly.

Aha -  with you. IS that the same that first appeared on Long Lost Surf Songs volume something or other, many years ago?

Yes.

I think the loss of the 6 minute heroes edit may be the greatest tragedy in Smile.  If we just had that edit, even on the world's worst sounding acetate, then someone could go back to the safety-master tapes and splice together a legitimate 6 minute Heroes and Villians!  that would be unimaginabley wonderful, and bring us a lot closer to what 67 smile would have sounded like!  The idea that such a mix obviously existed, but hasn't survived the ages, is almost unbearable for me...

The tape box with the Look vocals is empty.
Let me repeat that.
THE TAPE BOX WITH THE LOOK VOCALS IS EMPTY!

When I try to explain the tragedy that is lost, unreleased, or unfinished Beach Boys material to people, they just scratch their heads. My kingdom for a true stereo Good Vibrations.

One of the questions a 2 sided H&V throws up for me is how side a would have ended - presumably it would have to have sounded like an ending, yet still been a transition to the start of side b if, so that when played as a whole it flowed through seamlessly. The western theme section + flutter horn fits all the criteria for this - it would have sounded like an ending, yet simultaneoulsy would have hinted at more to follow (flip the single!). Just my hunch obviously, but I really think this was what the western theme was for.

H&V Part/Side 1 [57020] must have ended with "Prelude to Fade" [57020: 2/15/67] to one of the versions of "Tag to Part 1" [57020: 1/3/67 or ?].

Then H&V Part/Side 2 [57045] must have begun with the Elements-Part 1 sampled "Intro to Heroes and Villains" [57045: 3/1/67] and ended with "Fade Out To Heroes and Villians" [57045: 2/28/67], the unYAMSed-Carl-added sample of the OMP album track fade. Presumably the OMP fade remained with the OMP album track, if it mattered anymore at that point, and was therefore among the H&V Part 2 album sampler. In my world anyway.

Is the tag to part 1 the piano version of Do A Lot? I've tried that in mixes and think it works well - presumably it would have been a fade? I never considered heroes intro as the start to Part 2 but I guess it makes complete sense. But what could have followed it? Gee, swedish frog, heroes sections through to dum,dum,dum, perhaps followed by the false barnyard fade?

Do you really the think the omp fade would have remained with omp, aswell as the nearly identical fade being used in heroes? Maybe if false barnyad fade only appeared on the b-side of the heroes & villains single that would be feasible as the fade would not have been duplicated on the album. Then as you say, it acts as a sort of sampler for OMP on the album. The heroes intro functions as a sampler for fire, but I don't see how other songs are represented other than maybe worms? I suspect more that Brian was just constantly cannibalising smile songs to create his H&V single, but who knows - you may be right. Yours is a more optimistic theory I think.

Tag to Part 1 [57020]: Maybe. As I remember there are a few versions of it including a "version 4". Tag and fade are used interchangably in Beach Boys recordings it seems to me.

H&V Part 2 [57045]: The H&V/BR section [57045: 1/3 or 5/67] would probably follow, and whatever was recorded for H&V Part 2 [57045] after Jan. 3 or 5, including the OMP rerecorded/sampled fade.
I suppose the OMP fade stayed the OMP fade but it did not remain as the fade for H&V Part 1 [57020] after the cantina mix because it had since been recorded as the H&V Part 2 [57045] fade. Perhaps that "version 4" of "Tag to Part 1" [57020] or maybe something recorded [for 57020] after the cantina version was scrapped replaced the OMP fade on H&V Part 1 [57020]?

Thanks, I prefer to think of my theory as more realistic but optimistic works too.

Yes I just meant optimistic in the sense that the thought of Brian cannibalising smile tracks to create the H&V single, leaving Smile bankrupt as an album in the process, seems like a  depressing theory.


So are you saying that Heroes intro (the one that sounds like fire) would have kicked off part 2, followed by the bicycle rider section? I've never been able to work out how Brian might've used that BR section, I think because he used it more than once in the eventual single. It makes me wonder if he planned to use it similarly in the pre-smiley heroes i.e. recurring in the song.

I think the cannibalized Bicycle Rider version from Worms was dropped when he recorded the "new" Bicycle Rider/eventual Heroes chorus in a minor key in February.  That would have followed Prelude to Fade in Part 2 IMO, then the new Fade.

I don't think we can rule out that just because Brian recorded a new version of the OMP and now cantina version fade that the previous version was out of Part 1.  The two versions are different, with live Carl vocals on the second and a slightly different arrangement.  The return of the first fade, with some differences, might have functioned as a "chorus" or reference back to Part 1, since there still isn't a chorus in the song, to give it a cyclic structure.  I think it was definitely out of OMP now.  What would he have replaced it with?  Maybe . . . IWBA/FN?  Fits pretty well after the descending strings of YAMS.  Would've made OMP/YAMS/IWBA/FN some revolutionary track!

I dug around and found a version of this tag (heroes & villains sessions vol 2) where the engineer can be heard saying "4" at the start - presumably the version 4 you refer to. This is fascinating as it has some piano embellishments very similar to the windchimes tag. It makes me think there may be something to your theory that a 2 sided heroes might have been a show case/sampler for the album, with the various songs represented in some form.

Is there another version of Tag to part 1:version 4, as the one I mention ends quite abruptly, and has Brian talking over it?

Do you have a good source for finding out which parts of H&V belong to [57020] or [57045]. I know the union sheets would tell me this, but I don't know of a source that gives me access to all the union sheets.  Badman's book has some of them. I think that using the master numbers is a brilliant way to tell what is part 1 and what is part 2. Great theory.

Where is a good place to look at the session sheets for SMiLE? Under the session section at the SMiLE shop it doesn't really list all of the people who played, and not every song has a list of the session players. I looked at AGD's site, and that only listed sessions. Could someone direct me in the right direction?

I've gotten vague on which track is what  but I've had a pretty good record in the past [100% but who's bragging?] with identifying which recordings went with which session info. I'm probably not up to date on the latest discoveries about which tracks were recorded on what date for which master number. I would love to have someone fill us in on the latest and confirm or deny there is a tape of a PS sampler resting in the vault [*cough*Alan*cough*]

Your theory of the heroes a/b side as a sampler for the album actually becomes more appealing the more I consider it. It does explain why there are so many short sections that so clearly resemble the longer songs from the album. It makes more sense of, for example, Brian dumping a farm chant section right in the middle of heroes variations. That swedish frog section seems so arbitrary until you consider that it might be a sampler for the barnyard suite on the album, if that track was to exist.

So far I can think of the following snippets in H&V that could represent a longer album track: FB fade for OMP, Do A Lot for vegetables, swedish frog for the barnyard suite, with me tonight fast version for with me tonight, Tag to part 1 for windchimes, Heroes intro for Fire, BR for Worms, Gee for Wonderful or GV? I'm sure there must be more.

I really like this idea. I've put together a Americana suite of Old Master Painter/My Only Sunshine/I Wanna Be Around/With Me Tonight for the A-Side of the album. The B-Side has a similar suite, The Elements, in which I use Workshop as Earth. So I've sort of combined two different theories from this thread. Some great discussion going on.

I do have some questions though. Only partially related.
"Jazz" was recorded the same day as I'm In Great Shape, Friday Night, and I Wanna Be Around. Could this have been for use in anything? I've never actually heard this track, what does it appear on? I've heard some people say it was just the musicians warming up, but I'm still curious about it.

When was Mama Says recorded? During sessions for Vegetables? I've read that for a long time people thought that Mama Says/Do a Lot was I'm in Great Shape, was it always included in fan mixes of Vegetables? What did people do with it before the 2004 Smile?

It's true that on the first few, or at least the vigotone, Smile boots mama says was considered IIGS. Before I heard that version of vega-tables with it incorporated I never thought I'd hear IIGS. How psyched was I? Well, not half as psyched as when that demo of H&V surfaced and we got to hear the real IIGS, followed soon after by the actual backing track. I'm not sure there were fan mixes of vegatables back then since you would've had to do it on a cassette and that would be a pain in the ass, big time!

Didn't Do A Lot start out as part of heroes, then migrate to Vegetables? Or going along with Cam's theory, perhaps Do A Lot could have appeared as part of the heroes single as a sampler for the main track of vegetables on the album. I have heard it argued that it could belong with IIGS - maybe as part of a barnyard suite, along with Barnyard. So you start with breakfast, then brushing your teeth, then out to feed the animals!

Another idea that occurred to me, was that maybe the piano only version of the bicycle rider theme could have been a revised tag to part 1 of Heroes. Not sure if the recording dates might back this up? So part 1 would end with piano BR, then part 2 would start with Heroes intro, followed by a more developed version of the BR theme. The piano only BR is certainly a good candidate for a tag to Pt 1 as Brian had already planned to use a piano piece at the end of pt1.

Something else that's occurred to me.

Going with the theory that prelude to fade was positioned at the end of Pt 1, just before a fade. There is a whistles & bells version of prelude and I have often wondered what that was about. It makes complete sense if we consider the bells & whistles laden Heroes intro as a start to pt 2 then these two sections are practically next to each other.

This whistles/bells prelude to fade then signals a change in tone in H&V to something disastrous or more sinister. If we follow this prelude with the piano only BR theme as a fade, this sustains the change in tone. Pt 2 then starts with Heroes intro which is undeniably a sinister section (just listen to the organ led earlier versions of it), and is perhaps followed by another minor key BR section (the one that sounds like a train). You then have a large section of the pt 1/pt 2 single where the tone has been altered to something dark and villainous. Perhaps Gee signals another shift to a lighter mode for the last part of pt 2. This is followed by the much happier sounding heroes variations, which work well because this "heroes & villains" motif has already been established, but in the minor key with the BR theme.

I definitely think a pt 1/pt H&V would have had a narrative feel, and perhaps a shift to a darker mood, sustained over several sections, followed by a redemptive uplifting portion. The idea of good & evil, heroes & villains, is then audibly represented within the structure of the song.

So how would the song have fit into the rest of the album? Would the whole 6 minute shebang start right after Prayer? Also how does Do You Like Worms fit in? Worms is a really weird song, on a lot of bootlegs it's listed as Heroes and Villains II, and considering Brian only held sessions for the song once it's place within Smile has always seemed odd to me. The January work on Heroes has always led me to believe that Brian was reconsidering Worms. He split Barnyard off for a possible Barnyard Suite (that he never did anymore work on), broke up Old Master Painter, and took out the Bicycle Rider from Worms. Really I think Do You Like Worms was on the chopping block.
What time frame was the 2 part Heroes in? If it was before December '66 the first part would have had I'm In Great Shape and Barnyard

Do You Like Worms? had more than one session. 10/18/66 and 12/21/66. By 1/5/67 Bicycle Rider was sucked into H&V. But you have a point.  There weren't very many Worms sessions (just as many sessions as there was for Look/I Ran, which I consider to have a shaky claim to having ended up on the LP). The Worms title was on the handwritten list, and thus on the back cover slick.  But we have established that the back cover slick was only a demo, and was never printed in mass production.  The song titles could have changed in the final back cover slick.  So Worms very well could have been cut.

Also, it's possible that when Brian stole bicycle rider for heroes and villians, he also imagined other parts relocating: The Hawaiian chants could have become part of the elements (water) or been mixed with some early version of little pad or even with me tonight.  This would leave only the verse and rock, rock, roll parts actually scrapped. 

That said, from a narrative point of view, Worms seems like a really key smile track to me, in terms of making an americana album.

In my theory, nothing was removed from the album tracks, leaving a hole in the album track, to create a section of H&V. Some part of an album track was sampled and altered and added to H&V Part 2 [57045] but the sampled section remained in its original track serving its original purpose in the album track.

For instance, The BR chorus from DYLW was sampled but the orchestration is done different and H&V lyrics are substituted for DYLW's chorus BR lyrics but imo opinion the BR chorus remained in its original DYLW form with its BR lyrics in DYLW. Elements Part 1 was sampled, re-orchestrated as an intro of H&V Part 2 [57045] but the original track  remained as Elements Part 1. The OMP fade was tried out in H&V Part 1 [57020] and later sampled with new orchestration and vocals for H&V Part 2 [57045] but nothing says it ceased to still be the OMP fade in its original form. It could have been the OMP fade and the H&V Part 1 [57020] fade and the reorchestrated fade to H&V Part 2 [57045] but I just don't feel it. My vote is for the fade remained in OMP, because there is no reason to think otherwise, and the reorchestrated section was the fade to H&V Part 2 [57045], because it is one of the latest recorded sections for H&V. Subject to change according to what is known about what was actually recorded when. 

All pure conjecture based on the scant evidence available but imo making much better sense of the scant evidence. If only we knew a little more about what was recorded for what under the title H&V, especially the sessions after the cantina mix.

OK, I'll PM Alan and see if he has time or inclination to play. He probably has nothing better to do than to nerd it out with the rest of us brothers in nerd. ;)

what whistles and bells prelude are you referring to?  The only prelude to fade recorded was the "Western" sounding, clip clop percussion piece ending with the French horn.  The "intro to H & V" is a whistles and bells, and there is a bells only (chime) version of intro, and then there's the whistles/bells "Bag of Tricks."

Has the chime one been booted? Just for, er....reference.

There is a take of prelude to fade that has a whistle and bell percussion, not as pronounced as Intro to H&V, but they are there.  This version also has a string slide at the end much like the end of You Are My Sunshine. The string slide comes right after the french horn line. I have heard it is on a collection called Heroes and Villains Vol. 1, but I wouldn't know about that stuff.

For what it's worth, there is one tape box with a little note on it that says "Heroes and Villains Side Two."  That would be the rendition of the theme described on that box as "HEROES BRIDGE WITH SPOOKY LOW END STRINGS AND PERCUSSION."  This turned out to be the variation on the theme that was later used as the backing track for the chorus of the single version (but with the "spooky low end strings" mixed out in favor of droning low notes from what I can only assume is Brian's Baldwin organ).  I can't say for sure, however, when that "Side Two" note was written on the box, so....

As far as "Heroes and Villains" PART Two is concerned, the tape box containing the "Bicycle Rider" theme with Brian's lead vocal, is labeled "HEROES PART TWO."  Judging from some fragmentary mix outtakes for the song's opening verses - which seem to go into a snippet of that harpsichord-based "Bicycle Rider" theme - I'm guessing that "Part Two" in that case refers to sections within an alternate complete edit of the song, rather than an actual separate side two.  Perhaps an early version of the song may have had that "Bicycle Rider" section as a chorus in the same way the single version had a variation of that theme as its chorus.  Perhaps not...  Too bad the multitrack master from which that mix derived is missing.

The various vocal treatments that have long been regarded as the foundation for a Side Two of HEROES.... well.... they also have a "PART TWO" note on the tape box, as well as audio slates on the tape itself.  But that may just be referring to the order in which they were recording sections that day (2/20/67).  On the other hand, there doesn't appear to be a PART ONE from that particular session.  In this case, "Part Two" refers to the "Gee" vocal leading into a tack piano/ vocal variation ("Ahh ooom diddy wadda, heroes and villains")  "Part Three" on this tape is the next variation of the vocal thing ("heroes, the heroes, the heroes and a villains") leading into a suspenseful piano chord that leads to the growling Swedish Frog" stuff.... then another variation, "Part Four" or "Version Four" refers to the acapella "Dit Dit Dit Heroes and Villains" with the low doom-doom-doom vocals on the bottom....   The various sections appear on the 8 track tape in the same order as they were later presented on CD with the slates and false starts cleaned up and taken out.

*whew*

I would tend to be careful about assuming how sections like this were intended to be put together, especially having found an original edited track mix for CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN that's assembled very differently than the bootlegs had been for so many years.  The old versions had simply put the sections together in the same order as found on the original multitrack session tape.

FYI - That piece they call "Barnshine" or "False Barnyard" was originally recorded as part two of SUNSHINE, and there is a mono rough mix in the vaults with that section coming up right after the OLD MASTER PAINTER/SUNSHINE mixdown with Dennis' lead.  It has that bit of a SUNSHINE vocal from Brian (not Mike) buried way deep in there.  This appears to be a rough mix made in 1968 at Wally Heider while they were working out what was going to be on "Stack O Tracks."  Too bad the multitrack master from which that mix derived is missing.

That coda was not added to the alternate version of that first appeared on the SMILEY SMILE/WILD HONEY two-fer.  That mix was complete in a tape box labeled "Heros [sic] and Villains as of 2/10/67 master" Protection Copy.  I can't be certain that is a copy of the missing master mix dated 1/31/67, or a protection copy of another assembly/mixdown made after that.  The notes are not definitive.

And yes, that "Barnshine" bit was re-recorded on 2/28 with plucked strings and Carl attempting a vocal part as they were tracking it.  It was labeled here as HEROES AND VILLAINS FADE OUT.

So.... Ummm.  Hmmm.

Alan

Thanks Alan,

That is all fascinating information, especially to hear that the OMP + FB mix was done in 68.

As ever, the information about the various Gee + sections just leads to more uncertainty!

And wow what I'd give to hear that mix of Child that you're referring to! I'm assuming I'd be pushing my luck to ask you to elaborate on the structure of that mix?!

Alan, this mix you refer to - are the two sections actually edited together, or just following one another with a gap between, i.e. at what point during the melting strings ending of OMP does False Barnyard jump in?

Many thanks if you can answer this!

Thanks for the wonderful info Alan.

Damn, now I have to go back and change my Smile mix yet again. I thought I was done. How foolish I was.

You will never, ever be done. Because just when you think you are, when you think you've heard EVERYTHING out there, something shows up out of the blue. Perhaps just a snippet, but as you know, all of us SMiLE-fanatics must include every bit ever recorded. It's an endless cycle of abuse we put on ourselves. And worth it.  ;)

I have always assumed, like alan, that the "Bicycle Rider" vocal and overdub session on Jan 5 was for a revised Side One of the single, that was rejected eventually for the cantina version on Feb 10th.  But then why was it recorded with a new Master #, and this new # was used for subsequent "Part 2" sessions like the Fade to Heroes and Villains and the Intro to Heroes and Villains?

We have a rough mix of the "Part 2" sections worked on Feb 20th and it seems clear these were meant for a side two version.  But then how would the "bridge" (H & V chorus), the intro, the prelude to fade and the fade fit into that?  Had Brian bagged 2/20 sections altogether and was making a new "side two/Part 2?"

It's too bad there isn't a for-research-only comp of all of the available H&V bits arranged and identified by date put together by some ambitious fan. ??? I've alreday got so I can't remeber which bit is what.

It is confusing when you try to go by the notations of "parts" on vocal recordings, written and verbal, because of the reasons you said. "Side", "fade", "intro", "prelude", "tag" not so much. When you can tie them to a master number it seems to me it clears up the vague notations. Not foolproof or certain but more definite at least. Can I get a witness on that?

Alan, if you happen by again, is there an unreleased tape in the vaults for a b-side for one of the PS singles that is a sort of sampler of the PS' album? Something I've been told but never seen mentioned so I'm sort of doubting it.

What would suit me (I've never been able to keep track of all the different ways these are referred to) would be a list that identifies the segments by master number, x-ref'd to the boot they appear on by boot title and track number.

If Cam's bold enough to admit he's confused, I'm certainly not ashamed to say I am too!  :)

I would like that too.

I'm not so much confused as rusty on what's what.

OK, rusty and confused.

Jeez....Now I gotta cut "False Barnyard" off of my version of "Heroes And Villains" and graft it on to "The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine". But I'll love every minute of it. If you guys play around with it (your mix), please go to the "Your Personal SMiLE mix" thread and let me know how you're doing with it.

Here's my contribution.  Needs to be parsed and added to and updated. Some of it is comment by me and conjecture based on tape of publication; probably need to weed that out.

Heroes and Villains

May 11    Heroes And Villains (I);  55999/12872; Gold Star; 13 musicians
      Variations on You Are My Sunshine according to Al Kooper; erased

?<Oct16>   Heroes and Villains (I); 56727/14150; Western

October 20    Heroes & Villains (I); 56727/14159; Western Recorders; 2:00pm-7:30pm; 8 musicians; including VDP; Tommy Morgan called at 5:00;
      ?verse + Barnyard
          
October 27    Heroes & Villains; 56738/14163; Western; (I); 4 musicians, VDP; 4 musicians, Dorothy Victor called at 5:30
   I’m In Great Shape

Nov. 4   Mix Session?
   H&V demo

?Late Nov.-early Dec  Heroes & Villains (v) BB vocals; according to Mike Love and Vosse

Dec. 13    Heroes & Villains (v) BB vocals; Columbia

Dec. 19    Heroes & Villains (I); 57020/14236; Western; 16 musicians;    Blaine held 1:30

Dec. 22    “Insert for Heroes & Villains (overdub)” (v) ML + 5 BBs

Dec. 27    Heroes & Villains (v) BW solo session

Dec. 28    Heroes & Villains (v); BW solo

January 3  Heroes & Villains (v) BB vocals; (5 artists + Brian acting as AFTRA contractor)

2585
1) HEROS & VILLIANS -GREAT “DO A LOT” = "mama says" with the piano and
conga drum
2) HEROS & VILLIANS "BAG OF TRICKS" = "alt whistles
3) VERSION PR 1’S BRIDGE TO INDIANS + ascending "ahhs" plus the thing that comes before it on the GVBS "Sections" mix (ahhh doot doo doot doo doo doo doo doo)
4) HEROS & VILLIANS TAG TO PART #1
5) HEROS & VILLIANS P.U. TO 3RD VERS = ascending "ahhs" minus both the last "hmmm" note AND minus the note before that
{“All Day” [not listed on tapebox] =  ILTSDD + several tryouts of section order}

January 5  Heroes & Villains - Part 2 (I); 57045/14247; Western; 3 musicians; VDP
      "Heroes And Villains Side Two"

January 20  Heroes & Villains (i); 57074/14258; Columbia; 3 musicians;                   CANNED SESSION

      Heroes & Villains (v) BB vocals; (5 artists+ Brian, acting as AFTRA contractor)

January 27  Heroes & Villains  (v); Columbia; 6-9pm, 10-12pm;                   a mix with a Brian/Mike co-lead on 3 verses; whistling/dum “scat” verse

Jan 31 Heroes & Villains Mix session

HEROS AND VILLAINS - 1ST PART
1 - 1st version of PT-1
2 - 2nd version of PT-1 with more echo
3 - 1st version of PT-2
4 Bridge to 3rd verses [or versions] (start with “My Children”)
5 Bridge To PT Two (whistle Part)
EDITED, indicating all above parts
6 - 3rd verses
7 BRIDGE [Last item crossed out]

Feb 3   Heroes & Villains (v); BB

February 7 Heroes & Villains (v); BB

Heroes & Villains (I); 57020/14236i; Columbia; Tedesco only

Feb 10   Heroes & Villains (v; mixdown); Columbia; Brian only

2/10/67 - “Heros & Villains” as of 2/10/67 master
1st verse
2nd verse
3rd verse (all edited together)

1 - bridge to 3rd verse
2 - bridge to fade
3 - cantina
4 - 2nd verse
5 - fade

Feb 15    Heroes & Villains (I); 57020/14236k; Western; 19 musicians mostly strings; VDP
“Prelude to Fade”

Feb 21   Heroes & Villains [v] BB

Feb 24   Heroes & Villains [v] BW only

Feb 26   Heroes & Villains [v] BB vocals; Columbia

Feb 27    Heroes & Villains - Part II (I); 57045/14247-A; Western; 2-3 musicians          including Gene Estes

Feb 28    Heroes & Villains - Part II Insert (I); 57045/14247-B; Western; 7-8 musicians including VDP, Ahbez shown in photo
   “Fade out to Heroes and Villians”

March 1    Heroes & Villains - Part II (I); Western; 57045/14247-C; 6-7 musicians including Gene Estes and Hal Blaine
      “Intro to Heroes and Villains”

March 2    Heroes & Villains, Part II (Insert) (I); Western; 57045/14247-D; 2-3 musicians including Hal Blaine

Could "Part 1" from Jan. 21 be the strings mixed down on the BR/H&V chorus on Smiley?

A question for Alan-

You mentioned the tape box with the "Part 2" sections is dated 2/20/67 - I haven't seen this previously listed as a vocal or instrumental Heroes session, although there is documentation for 2/21.  Could this date be the date for the editing and compilation of the different sections, rather than the date the vocal work was done? 

Pile on Alan.

Alan, I've seen where one tapebox had the single # 2585 noted but I wonder if there are any master numbers ever noted on these H&V vocal/comp tape boxes?

Thanks.

'Scuse me for bumping this back up but there I was, just working away, with Gershwin's Rhapsody In Blue on in the background for the first time.

It reached point 5:14 and seemed suddenly to burst in to Heroes & Villains.

Despite being aware that it's one of BW's fave's, I'd never listened to RiB before and was rather gobsmacked.

So I thought I'd point it out to anyone else who'd never listened to it before.

Please visit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-m754FKT8  and confirm what my ears just seemed to be telling me? It's brief, but I'm sure that influence is there.

Good call. The quiet part into that crazy horn melody is sorta smileish too, but that horn thing is very H&V.

I think with this information, I may be about to attempt an "LP length SMiLE" CD mix in a few days.  I'll let you know what I come up with, since "Your Personal SMiLE mix" is already high on my list of favorite threads around here...

The above quote is driving me nuts, so I finally registered (this is my first post).  I don't KNOW if this idea is correct (or, rather, based in fact), but my hat goes off to you Cam Mott, as this is a FANTASTICALLY GREAT idea!  I might have missed it, but has anyone talked about how this might solve the problem (or at least answer the question) of where the "Heroes and Villains (intro)" was supposed to go.  IF H&V Part 2 was variations on themes from other SMILE album tracks, IF the H&V (intro) was a variation on "Cabinessence (Who Ran the Iron Horse)" or "The Elements (Fire)", then I'm thinking that H&V Part 2 would have been a non-LP B-side like "You're Welcome".  Maybe the H&V (intro) became the intro to "Mrs. O' Leary's Cow" on BWPS because a non-LP B-side was no longer very important(relevant) in 2004.
Thanks also for pointing out the different master numbers (57020/57045).  I never noticed them in the Badman book, even though they're RIGHT THERE (guess I'm dumb).

I agree that this is a brilliant theory because it actually makes much more sense of the myriad variations that show up during heroes sessions. Pieces such as Heroes intro, Do A Lot, All Day, Swedish Frog, With Me Tonight (fast version) that seemingly should belong with other songs, make much more sense when viewed as snippet samplers of longer songs within the album i.e. Heroes intro=Fire, Swedish Frog=Great Shape, All day=Dada, With Me Tonight (fast version)=With Me Tonight (long slow version) etc.

Are we saying that side two would have been the entire album distilled into a single track the length of a 45rpm single side?

It's Cam's theory, but I have to say it's the best explanation for why Heroes seemed to encompass so many bits from other songs.

I'm not a musician - are all these segments in the correct keys to flow together?

How about Bridge to Indians=Prayer(Our Prayer)?  Both end with hmmm(although the version of Bridge to Indians on the GVBS cuts off the hmmm and is called Pickup to 3rd verse!), although I don't think this was recorded as a Part 2 section.
Gee(How I Love My Girl) was recorded as a Part 2 section, so Gee=Vegetables or Child Is Father Of The Man(maybe)?  Another post has talked about the similarities of these 2 cuts, so maybe these H&V Part 2 variations could = more than one song.  Heroes and Villains (intro) sounds like Fire and the Cabinessence section called Who Ran the Iron Horse.

Well, I'm a little foggy on it now since I'm not obsessing over it anymore [or at the moment?]. I was hoping Lou the Bicycle Rider or c-man or Alan would pitch in with the latest on that.

When I think about it, it makes better sense of Brian's comment that he was going back and forth on giving away too much about SMiLE with the B-side of H&V. A B-side with several samples of tracks from all over the album would give away  too much but would a B-side of a single track from the album really give away too much? Maybe. Depends.