The Smiley Smile Message Board

Has Brian ever commented on his time with her? Or, better yet, has she? This was a time in Brian's life that hasn't been well publicised (aside from the Landyography) and was curious on the real deal as far as what went on.

I heard that she was a nice lady but nobody has said much else to me.

Are pictures of her available anywhere?

Wasn't there at some point a theory that the other BBs got rid of her because she is black, and they framed her with a bit of hashish? So, covert racial motives? Don't know where I read that. But I definitely recall it.

That was from the Landyography, and supposedly Al was the one with the problem.

Hmmm... a new and unsettling picture of the Alster is emerging... stolen cars... setting up a nurse... hyperexposure at the Grammyfest...

What's next? Bankrobbery? Disabling the internet? Bombing Iran?

Given the past few days, that might well be on his mind.

What in the blue Hell?

It's sad - a lot of people don't know the story behind the book, so I'm sure a lot of these same people think Al a racist now. Nice.

 :lol

I'm on a vacation and started drinking at 9 a.m., folks ... it's only going to get better.

I realize that the group are a whole lot older than myself, but if that's true, that would really upset me. I'm going to stick to 'innocent until proven guilty', but I hope someone can elaborate.

OK, I will stay tuned. Many fine Lutherisms are on the way...

I'm pretty sure that every original Beach Boy has said the n word in private at least once in their lifetime. But framing this lady cause she had the wrong colour sounds just too wrong, even for Beach Boys standards.

You are Jimmy Buffet and I claim my $5.

I've never been so insulted in my life.

Ooohh... our Luther had what we call a 'kwade dronk' over here (a 'evil drink', i.e. he gets very, very bad after a couple of Tia Marias).

Luther... just say no. Look at Keith Richards... he changed from a very pale English schoolboy into Cochise.

Wasn't the Gaines book the first source to claim that Al didn't like Carolyn? I found the accusation quite shocking and unrealistic really, it was Al's idea to do a cover of Cottenfields which is by Huddie Ledbetter and Sloop John B is a West Indies folk song, pretty strange choices for a guy who allegedly doesn't like black people

Yep. And Blondie and Rikki were coloured, yes? (Only know B&W photos of them).

Gaines quotes Steve Korthoff: "Al would come up to me and say, 'Why does he have to put his arm around her?'" (p331 Gaines, First Da Capo Press paperback edition) That's the only thing I see specific to Al. Korthoff also is quoted as saying (on the previous page) "Everybody hated it ... Brian arm-in-arm with a black girl backstage." Gaines himself writes "Aside from the general humiliation the group felt about Brian's attachment to Carolyn Williams, they were also concerned that he would spend too much money on her .. or even worse, marry her." (331)

In some cases, people who are perfectly fine being entertained by, or even working with, minorities have a problem with interracial couples.

I'm not saying the stuff about Al or any of the BBs possibly having a problem with it is true, but just because they worked with Blondie Chaplin and listened to Cotton Fields doesn't mean they wouldn't have a problem with Brian's relationship with Carolyn Williams. Or maybe they simply had a problem with her because they didn't trust her or didn't like her for some other reason. They're not exactly buddies with the blond, blue-eyed Melinda, are they?

For what's worth, Melinda Love (Mike's daughter) once claimed that the problem with Carolyn wasn't racial, the band members just didn't trust her - or something like that.

It's easy to forget how much peoples' attitudes about race, sexual orientation and gender have evolved in just the last 30 years.  A lot of otherwise pretty liberal-minded people had visceral problems -- even if they couldn't justify them -- with some things that they just don't have now. 

Thank goodness for that. Maybe one day when my daughter's my age, we'll have completely moved past ignorance & bigotry completely.

Nah, there are always differences to focus on. Sad but true. Doesn't much matter what they are: get past one, identify another. Seems a society has gotta have an other to have a self.

This is so true. When I was growing up in the 80's inter-racial dating was a lot less accepted then it is now

Luther, you are pleasantly lucid when you're sloshed. Keep on drinking, man.

This has nothing to do with twhat we are talking about, but your avatar scares me.  :o

Oh...you meant "what".. I thought you typed something else :lol

Oops.  :p

:lol

I just changed it before I read your post. A good portrait of Brian's state of mind in '76.  :)

I liked it! It looked like Brian singing "That Same Song" from the TV special, fist pumping and all.

Exactly. I captured the screen. Brian was in good shape that day.

The facial expression gave me an unpleasent visual of an overgrown, bearded weirdo getting a blowjob.  ;D

Its a little unsettling that people are implying that Al is a racist for not liking the woman. You are perfectly entitled to dislike someone who has a different colour skin than your own just as long as it's not for that reason that you dislike them. Al disliked Carolyn from what I remember reading because she was hired as Brian's live in nurse/maid but thought nothing about scoring drugs for him and taking them with him. She just happened to have black skin. That does not make Al a racist.

Quiet, you racist.

I understand what you're trying to say here (the group disliked Carolyn's character, NOT the color of her skin), but man that is the WEIRDEST roundabout way of say that.  This thread is treading into dangerous waters and it would be best if folks carefully worded their opinions here; it's easy to misunderstand the written word.

If that's what was said.  Remember Gaines going on about Dennis' fear of being raped by a black guy or the alleged homophobia of some band members towards Jack Rieley, yet they all seemed comfortbale with Curt Becher - and Christ knows, he can't have been the only gay they met in the entertainment industry. I've also read that it was Al, not Carl, who first admired Flame.  Geez, who knows any more?

Why would you say something like that about my race? You awful, awful person!  :) Mike's Beard said nothing controversial or even remotely controversial; no problems here.

I guess I misread runnersdialzero's comment "Quiet, you racist".  Possibly that was in jest as well?  Like I said, it's hard to judge irony or humor just based on written word on the internet.  As long as we're all in agreement that no one here is racist...oh, except Al of course.  :-D

That allegation about Dennis and his fear about being raped by a black man always struck me as particularly weird. Seems un-Dennis-like, that fear I mean. Unless he had homosexual feelings that he repressed, or perhaps a black guy made a pass at the young and impressionable Denny. Mind, I like to psychologize. Just a few thoughts, nothing special.

I was unsure if runnersdialzero's post was in jest or not but frankly I wasn't prepared to get into a racist/not racist debate based on my remark. Thanks for the support B00ts btw! Rest assures gsmile I thought long and how on how to phase my earlier post and made sure to bold font the most important part. I'm unsure why you consider it weird?

It's all good Mike.  The way I saw it was runnersdialzero took your comment as being racist and although I could see what you were saying in your post (and that it was indeed the opposite of said assumption), I could also see how it could be misconstrued as racist.  I didn't mean to insinuate that anybody was indeed racist here, or imply that you hadn't totally thought out your post, I just felt I should make a comment that it's easy to misunderstand posts on a forum when tricky subjects like racism come into play.  Point in case I guess, and I've fallen prey to what I was trying to warn against!  Egg on my face.  :)

Now let's get back to the bigger question here:

WHERE ARE BRIAN'S PANTS???!?!?!?

Thanks for the reply and no you have no egg on your face!. Posts can be a tricky beast - sometimes what is running clear in the mind does not always translate as well when typed. I have fallen victim to this on many occasion in the last month or so since I became a member.   ;D When I read back my post I did think to myself "No matter how carefuly I phrase this delicate matter, I just know SOMEONES going to get the wrong end of the stick!!"

And, of course, there's Mike allegedly calling Sean O'Hagan a 'limey fag'...

Whilst it is entirely possible that Mike did not say this - O'Hagan seemed like he had an axe to grind - I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

Human behavior has a lot of degrees and variations. Sometimes people say dumb stuff just... because. It could be because they are a bigot, or because they are just a jack-ass, or perhaps 70% one and 30% of the other.  As George Carlin said, it's not the language that matters, it's the attitude behind it. Still, it is pretty bad form for someone like Mike to say the above about a potential collaborator... but John Lennon said worse in interviews and no one is calling him a bigot.

Dennis' fixation about being raped by black men again sounds like something made up for sensationalistic purposes, but if it is true, it certainly speaks to some sort of messed up racial attitude.

As far as Carolyn Williams, she seemed like a pleasant lady. However, if the group had a problem with her because she was scoring drugs for and doing drugs with Brian, or even for being an enabler, it is certainly understandable and in no way necessarily means that they were racist. They certainly could have been, but it is a leap  in logic to assume so, except for the quotes in the Gaines book, which I wouldn't hang my hat on.

I know Mike should've been old enough to know better, but, of course, we have no idea how he said it...

Wasn't the Al allegation one of the things he took legal action against or did he sue because everyone was else did?!

  Dennis's fear of being raped came up on a board a few years back. Someone supposedly close to Dennis said ,he didn't know of it being true but, Dennis would say anything if it helped get him bailed  out of jail .  They also said Dennis would say anything to get a reaction or a charge out of someone.
 
 
 I agree with what has been said ,it sounds  like it was used for "sensationalistic purposes" in a book.

Dennis' fixation just seems to be a weird variation on Hawthorne humour.

I think Mike told Sean O'Hagan that all brits are fags. Which is definetly something you just shouldn't say to a person who's about to collaborate with you on a project, period, but I'd file it as another one of those 'jokes that bomb' that Mike loves to tell his audience.

Sean should have made a mock pass at Mike just to freak him out when he said that!!

"I think Mike told Sean O'Hagan that all brits are fags. Which is definetly something you just shouldn't say to a person who's about to collaborate with you on a project, period, but I'd file it as another one of those 'jokes that bomb' that Mike loves to tell his audience."

To be honest, I suspected this was the case - undiplomatic humour.

I am black and I don't hate myself. Umm. Strike that. I just looked in the mirror and it appears that I'm white and do hate myself. Never mind. I love everybody.

Human behavior has a lot of degrees and variations. Sometimes people say dumb stuff just... because. It could be because they are a bigot, or because they are just a jack-ass, or perhaps 70% one and 30% of the other.  As George Carlin said, it's not the language that matters, it's the attitude behind it. Still, it is pretty bad form for someone like Mike to say the above about a potential collaborator... but John Lennon said worse in interviews and no one is calling him a bigot.

I very much agree that it is not the word in itself so much as the context in which it is said and the intent with which it is meant that makes something racist or homophobic.

A good is example is a certain word (which there is no way I will type on here for fear of getting lynched) which is in fact just an abbreviation for somebody who originates from Pakistan.

I doubt very much the English Gay Community would take to the streets in protest of what Mike said but maybe he should have waited until he knew Sean a bit better before he dropped a clanger like that?

But how would claiming to have been raped by black men help him get bailed out of jail?  ??? Or is that just an expression?

Can anyone link to/post a picture of Carolyn?  No?
 :afro

I guess he'd told people he "would" get raped in jail or "had" been raped to get sympathy and thus get some bail money.   I personally don't know what he said but, if it were true, I would imagine it might go like this ...
DENNIS- "Dude, get me out of here, c'mon, I'll get raped in here. Please, bail me out  man. I promise to be a good Beach Boy.""


The whole thing is likely crap and untrue.

I've never seen one. Also, I don't think she has ever commented on her time with Brian. Hell, I don't even know if she's even still alive.

I seem to remember hearing about a press conference she had about Brian being kidnapped when Landy took him to Hawaii in 1983, but I have never seen the interview.  It would be interesting to get her take on the whole situation.

Interesting is too small a word IMHO. It is an important period in Bri's life that still is quite shrouded in mystery. Who did what?

Apparently she's on Twitter @1Mahalo if anyone cares to Tweet at her and see if she'd be interested in visiting the board.
I'm guessing it's her because of her tweet a while back to Brian's acct.

@BrianWilsonLive Congrats, it could not have happen to a nicer guy. I know Carnie and Wendy are proud of you , Congrats
View conversation

Can't say anything good or bad about her. BTW, she's another person that got trashed by the autobio.

I saw her in Brian's  room at the Dunfy Hotel in 1981. She seemed like a nice enough person. She also traveled from the hotel to the show in a limo with Brian and Mike

Maybe she was a nice person, but she just happened to be around when Brian reached rock bottom with drugs? Something doesn't quite add up here.

Someone did once post a picture of Carolyn in another thread from when she was with Brian...in fact, there was another picture of Brian sitting on the exact same piece of furniture, so we know it was legit.

What I found odd is that "Brian's" "autobio" mentioned that she was overweight. Judging from the picture, she didn't look the slightest bit overweight.

Yeah that's a bizarre picture in that it shows early-80s Brian without the beard.

What thread was this from?
Would love to see it.

https://www.facebook.com/carolyn.williams.96343

Bit of a cougar then  :lol

Photo thread. I might still have the picture on my hard drive somewhere...

Carolyn and I met the year before Brian was sent to Hawaii. She tried to take care of Brian, but his illness  was at its worst while she was living with him. I see the attitudes expressed  by group members as feelings of helplessness  with. respect to how to treat Brian (and Dennis) at that time. Several times various strategies were implemented to help them get well. Carolyn told me that she was very worried. about Brian, but he was not receptive to treatment. She said he was self-medicating with chemicals  that could kill him. There is no question that she wanted him to seek help, but like Dennis, he was too ill psychiatrically to make such a decision himself. Dennis was as well.

Bad news: the picture in the thread is gone.

Good news: I had the foresight to save it. :)

First of all, here's a picture of Brian:
(http://www.banana-and-louie.org/images/t2ec16fhjhge9n0ydjukbqc.jpg)

Note the couch.

Now, here's Carolyn, sitting on the same couch:
(http://www.banana-and-louie.org/images/CarolynWilliams.jpg)

  I think the reason Brian appears to be sitting so much higher on the couch than Carolyn, is due to Brian sitting on top of Carolyn!

Wait... between those photos being taken, someone moved the radio antenna !

Well, of course, that can only mean one thing...

The Pied Piper from the faraway land of night?

Well if I may paraphrase an anonymous poster from a long ago Beach Boys BBS; Im sure Brian brought may tears to grandma's eyes when he would sit on her lap and sing those harmony highs, especially when he was at peak weight.

You're a grassy knoll kinda guy LOL!

They are interesting pictures. Thanks for sharing.  :o

Brian's sitting on the arm of the couch, of course.

The stories about Brian and Carolyn are interesting according the books and articles I read about them. Were they ever married? Or just live together with her children?  Either way I assume Carolyn really loved him. Who couldn't love Brian?!❤️

Carolyn was his nurse. They did have an affair, I'm told, but they were never married. 

I have read somewhere that it was Al who brought The Flame to Carl's attention.

From my experience at the time, Carolyn was a very positive force in Brian's life.  O.K., for sure he wasn't in a good way, but she was so careful about making certain that he took his meds on schedule, (and keep in mind, this was before the over-medication started), and was very supportive of his music.  And, while she did allow him to indulge somewhat, she was very guarded in that respect, too.  If Dennis & I showed up at the house with beer, she would make sure we didn't enter with more than a 6 pack, knowing the 3 of us would fight to have our 2 each!  (Of course Dennis & I might be sneaking outside to have an occasional extra 1 or 2).  But it was very much about the music, and being a home body.  Things didn't start getting out of control until they had him back on the road...

I believe they were classed as "Cape coloureds", meaning, essentially, non-whites of mixed race & ancestry (i.e., not Zulu or the like)

Further, it was Landy who removed her from Brian's life, a shabby episode if ever there was one.

Interesting.  The Wikipedia article for Ricky Fataar states that he is "of Cape Malay" descent, an ethnic group of South Africans that are largely of Southeast Asian ethnicity. 

'coloured' was a legal designation. Under the Population Registration Act of 1950, all citizens had to register as either "white', 'black' or 'coloured'. Your legal status effected your representation, schooling and residential area, among other things. Your designation depended not just on ancestry, but your appearance, associations, cultural habits, etc. In some cases, families were split up because of skin/hair variation within the family. Cape Coloureds and Cape Malays were legally 'Coloured'.

** edit to change reply to Marcella27, not AGD.

I have to say that in my extensive interviews for my book a few insiders made some disturbing allegations about racial views of some of the bbs but it's always got to be taken with a grain of salt.  You are hearing one persons allegations about things that happened in the past and that person may have an axe to grind. Who knows!

In an interview, Trevor Noah, host of the Daily Show, talked about growing up in apartheid South Africa. His father was white and his mother was black. He was designated as "colored." As a result, he was not supposed to be seen with his mother in public, as legally, she wasn't supposed to have a "colored" child because that would mean his father was white. So whenever they went out, she had to pretend to be his family's housekeeper, escorting him around for his "real" parents. Very messed up.  Anyway, sorry for the off-topic post, but these designations were very complex and painful.

I'm sorry too for taking this thread off-topic. In a North American setting, the term "colored" is an obsolete term for black or African American.  I wasn't aware of the different use in apartheid-era South Africa.  I made my initial comment because I've seen many articles (not here) that refer to Blondie and Ricky as "two black musicians from South Africa" who joined the BB.  It always strikes me as lazy journalism/writing when I read something like that and is a pet peeve of mine.   

Cape Malays, sometimes known as Cape Muslims.  There was once a muslim Beach Boy?  Never occurred to me before.

OK, let me put it to you this way:

Ricky is definitely not white.

Most here claim to be enlightened, but it seems to me that many of you are uncomfortable even talking about race.  Just an observation.

I doubt that the Beach Boys of the 1960s, 70s and 80s were any more or less bigoted than 90 percent of the population of that era.

You need to understand that The Beach Boys came from backgrounds that would be regarded as unsophisticated these days, and that Hawthorne was little more than a hick town in the 50s.

I hear Carolyn attended Beach Boys meetings and concerts. Reminds me of Yoko Ono when she used to attend Beatles recording sessions.

True, but...so what? He's not white so he must be black? I don't get your point. 

But Carolyn was caring for and looking out for the interests of a man who was in deeply bad shape, and who largely couldn't handle things on his own at the time. Completely different situation with Lennon and Yoko.

No, my point is...he is not white. Period. He could be green for all we know. Just to pretty much shut up the people discussing it above. Whatever he is, he's not caucasian.

No-one claimed he was.

What gets me is that the H&V book described Carolyn Williams as "overweight." Sure as hell looks not overweight at all in that picture....then again, I guess anybody next to Brian at that period in his life...