The Smiley Smile Message Board

Another quick question or two about this track...

I believe this track was identified (by AGD?) as being from the Friends sessions. Was it part of an existing Friends' song or another unreleased song? Due to the length (1:25) could it be the entire song? Those Friends' songs were very short.

Also, does anybody hear a similarity between the Spanish Guitar snippet and the spoken part by Brian on "In Blue Hawaii" from BWPS, where he goes, "Is it hot as hell in here or is it me; it really is a mystery...." I'm trying to hear the Spanish guitar over Brian's voice.

Are you talking about the track that has the odd keyboard/harpsichord sounding instrument? If so, then I really don't hear much of a similarity to "In Blue Hawaii". But, to me the keyboard riff sounds quite a bit like the vocal melody for  "Stevie", albiet in slightly different embryonic form.

It's actually not a "Smile" track at all, but rather comes from the "Friends" sessions.

Recorded March 26th, logged as "New Song".

How was this finally verified? Also, how was it determined that 'Little Red Book' was from 'Friends' era? Was documentation found?  If this is in another thread, please direct me!

It was verified to me by someone who would know for sure, someone who I trust 100% in such matters.

Brad Elliott  :P

 :thud  :ahh  :whatever  :angry

Oddly enough... no.  ;D

Bwahahahahaha

I've been arguing that point for years, glad to get confirmation.

I always find it interesting how songs like this "Spanish Guitar" track and others - "Can't Wait Too Long" is another one - end up on SMiLE bootlegs. I'm sure it varies with each track/bootleg, but it still does make you wonder if there is any liknk to SMiLE when they show up like that.

It was none other than our good friend Alan Boyd who confirmed that "New Song" and My Little Red Book are from the Friends sessions. The latter should be obvious, listen to the piano sound.

No, my mind is blown! Always assumed Little Red Book was smile.

It seems to me that whatever little ditty turned up was instantly attributed to SMiLE....

The fact that someone could mistakenly consider a Miles Davis/Gil Evans track a Smile recording is beyond my comprehension. It certainly adds fuel to the Beach Boys haters' fire when they claim Beach Boys fans have nothing better to do than listen to the Beach Boys.

true..... in a 1985 phone call P.R. told me the following story....he was putting together a personal smile tape for his own pleasure. he did not have the "air" piece. so he put the miles davis song on as "air" because he liked it and it sounded "airy". just for his own listening pleasue. but that did not stop one person  who was given a copy from putting out the first smile vinyl boot (when he promised not to share the tape). on that boot it listed the piece as being air and the rest is history... :)

This constant villification of Brad Elliott is just obscene!

There's no other way to put this ... Peter lies.  I've known both Brad and Peter for many years, and they had a falling out way back when.  Since then, Peter's gone out of his way to paint Brad in the worst possible light.

The truth is that Brad was the go-between that landed Peter the biggest chunk of those early SMILE tapes (specifically, the ones that were described in Byron Preiss's book).  There was no reason for Brad to get SMILE tapes from Peter, as he already had them (having gotten Peter his copies).

The guy that Peter set up with the faked "Air" was Mark Plummer, who was a big Beach Boys and Jan & Dean fan back then, but hasn't been heard from in ages.  Any leak that led to the first SMILE bootlegs came from that direction, not Brad.  In fact, if anybody wants to go back and research the issue in old issues of the "Add Some Music" fanzine, they'll find it was Brad who broke the story that "Air" on that first SMILE bootleg was a fake.  That doesn't sound like something you'd do if you were the one who faked it.

Brad is a proven fraudster. Fact. He has swindled people out of thousands of dollars over the First Wave project (and the Dailey photos... and the sessions book... and the BW productions 2LP set), reneged on a promisary note and evaded service processors. He's also spread some nasty rumors about some big-name BB fans. When I was doing some work for Capitol back in 2000, I was earnestly warned to distance myself from him, as his name at the Tower was mud back then. And still is.


Sounds like a classic double bluff to me.

Tell me, why the constant championing of Mr. E. ?  I can think of just the one reason.

Hmmm ...  No "constant championing" from this corner that I know of.  I think I've said something about a very similar accusation against Brad on one other occasion.  Other complaints about him, I've said nothing.

As I said, I've known Brad for many years, and still consider him a friend.  I just find it ironic that so many who have benefited so much from his work (look at the credits on your own Bellagio website, AGD) are so quick to condemn him while taking Peter's word for something that none of them know anything first-hand about.  I mean, Peter's the one who deliberately sent somebody (whether you believe it was Brad or know it was Mark Plummer) a faked BB track.  That's somebody whose word we're supposed to accept as gospel?

Furthermore, Brad's condemned because he allegedly was involved with the first SMILE bootlegs (which he, in fact, wasn't), but we're okay with Peter's having done the original Beach Boys Collectors Series of bootlegs -- including ripping off Frank Holmes by doing the first reprints of the SMILE cover?  25 years later, when Brad marketed the remaining copies for Peter's wife, he sought and obtained Frank's permission and paid him a cut of the proceeds.  Did Frank make anything off the many copies Peter sold?  I don't think so!  So how hypocritcal are we being?

No, he's condemned because he took thousands of dollars from people, and hasn't been heard from.  I'm not doubting that he has done alot in getting the word of the BB's out, and he's done his fair share of research. That's not the issue. The issue is that he's a thief. Plain and simple, and there's no defense. Unless you find it acceptable to take money and never offer to give it back when things don't work out.

Definitely not saying I do.  But I don't think those mistakes should completely undercut all that he did that was of value.  And it certainly shouldn't leave him being blamed for things he wasn't responsible for.  (I mean, I've seen him tagged as being responsible for the Sea Of Tunes releases, when he never even came close to having that kind of access to the BB's tape vault!)

FYI, when I last talked with him (admittedly, a couple of years ago), Brad was sporadically sending out reimbursements as he was able.  He got saddled with over $40,000 in legal expenses when Bruce Morgan and Original Sound sold him a bill of goods when he licensed the Hite Morgan tapes for release and then got him sucked into The Beach Boys' lawsuit against them!  At the time I talked with him, the damn case was still bouncing around the court system and still racking up lawyers' fees for him!

As to why he's not heard from, his wife was diagnosed with a brain tumor about six years ago.  After two unsuccessful brain surgeries and extensive radiation treatments, she's disabled, and he's responsible for caring for her.  Sadly, I don't think it leaves him much time for anything else.

Oddly enough, I don't need to look at those credits - because I wrote them. You'll notice I gave him fair and due credit for his outstanding pioneering work in this field - without that essential groundwork, my site would be a sorry place. But that doesn't ameliorate the fact that the man is a crook who has stolen thousands of dollars from people under false pretences, and who has also smeared the names & reputations of other fans. He's also broken promises concerning information & documentation supplied to him on a 'no disseminating' basis, which caused people professional problems. Hardly a glowing resume, or cause to presume his innocence in this matter, it being clearly established that he has a history of, shall we say, shady dealings ?

As for the Smile boot questions, I put that to him more than once, in writing and during a phone conversation. He could have easily refuted them, but he didn't. Nor did he confirm them. He just ignored the question. Make what you will of that. All I know is, you're the only person who's ever linked the leak to Mark Plummer (who is, perhaps conveniently, MIA and thus unable to give us his side of the matter).

As is Brad.  Which is my point.  You don't know anything for certain about the source of that first SMILE boot, so why disseminate innuendo?  You're just a second- or third-hand (or worse) source.  I've heard you rail against such "second hand" information in regard to BB history; why is it acceptable when it comes to something else?

First hand, actually. I asked him. Twice. He declined to comment. I think I'm entitled to form an opinion from that. Would it have broken his heart to have said "no, wasn't me" ?

Plus, Brad is not MIA -  there's a contact address on the Surf's Up site, one page of which was updated just over a year ago.

Then be upfront and indicate that it's simply you're opinion, not fact.  He didn't say he did it.  There could have been lots of reasons that he didn't respond.  I wasn't there, so I don't know.  But neither were you in his head at the time to know what he was thinking.


Well, I'm sure Mark Plummer is alive and well somewhere, too.  For all I know, he has a webpage out there as well.  But both of them are MIA from fan circles in general and this message board in particular.

I have to ask this - is English your first language ?  Look at what I wrote again, this time carefully.

"I think I'm entitled to form an opinion from that."

"I'm", meaning me, not you, not anyone else, just me... "opinion", the very word you requested I use.

Btw, in this context it's "your", not "you're".

Yes, this time you stated it's your opinion.  In the past, you haven't been so guarded, instead stating as fact that Brad was involved in putting out the first SMILE boot.

As for why I'm so convinced he wasn't ... When that boot came out, he was unable to find a copy after hearing about it through the fan grapevine.  I went out and bought and shipped 2 copies to him, as I could find them easily at a local shop.  Why would he need somebody to do that if he was the guy who made them?

TIRED OF BUTTFUCK

You sure love that word, don't you?

Be nice to me. Day's been hard and I'm so tired and this shirt irritated my nipples to the point that they're red and extremely sore.

Same reason as I've postulated regarding the 'outing' of the Davis track - good cover. Also, I find it very difficult to believe that Brad Elliott, who was at the top of the fan tree in 1983, couldn't lay hands on a copy of a new US boot. I managed it with little trouble, and I live in England.

Also..."Peter lies"...? I think those of us who have talked with him over the years beg to differ, as *nobody* here but you, Bra-uh..."Beach Head" would question his integrity.

Since boots weren't exactly the kind of thing stocked in every corner record store, they could be quite difficult to find at times, depending upon where you live.  Distribution could be quite spotty.  Something available on the East Coast might never show up on the West Coast, and vice-versa.  And the heartland of the country was always the worst!  Brad moved around quite a bit in the '80s and '90s, and there certainly were times when he had to rely on others to find him the latest stuff.  Not only me, but you could check with a certain athletic-type up in the Pacific Northwest to verify that.  (If you don't know who I mean, AGD, I'll gladly PM you the name.)

Hey, Fear.  You're a moderator, right?  Surely you can look up my profile and see my e-mail address (though a real ISP, not a gmail or hotmail account), and my real name is right there in it -- and it's not Brad Elliott.  So cut out the insinuations!  I'm just a long-time fan and collector, who's seen a lot of stuff go down over all the years I've been on the sidelines.

I know who you mean, but right now I'm not going to bother him: he's got a lot on his plate and doesn't need this kind of frippery as well.

This heated discussion is really warming the cockles of my heart.

Thanks for keeping it professional...and very entertaining!

I repeat - I live in England and back in 1983, I laid hands of first pressing copies of the Smile I, Landlocked & Made in USA (complete with 3D chimp) boots with the minimum of trouble... and back then the fan circuit was just as active - just not as fast in those pre-internet days. Were I pressing up such items, the first thing I'd do would be to mail 'review' copies to the name fans of the day. If you're in the loop, these things tend to fall into your lap. So, sorry, but that excuse doesn't pass muster.

And, much as I don't want to resort to the "he did too !" level of exchange, labelling Peter as a liar while defending Brad Elliott is a little rich as, aside from repeatedly lying to the investors in his various unrealised projects, he made some off the record claims about fellow fans that were as untrue as they were unpleasant.

Finally, here's a prime reason why I tend to regard certain things Brad has claimed as dubious in the extreme. When he was being pursued by fans trying to reclaim the bucks they'd sent him for First Wave, or one of the books, he stated that he'd been admitted to hospital for a renal complaint and that the medication prescribed had induced a heart attack. Now, I've had a similar condition since 1975, but just to be sure I asked my doctor about it, and he assured me that there is no known medication for this condition that could possibly induce a cardiac arrest. Further, knowing how litigious the US medical sector is, I cannot see any doctor administering any medication without first (i) explaining the possible consequences (and getting a waiver signed): and (ii) doing a battery of tests and background checks. Again, it just doesn't wash.

Do I still believe Brad was the source for those boots (and probably some others of recent vintage) ?  Yes, because enough folk had told me that was the case, and because I gave him the chance to deny it, and he passed on it. A good lawyer in court would have a field day with that.

Did he tell you this himself? Great stuff -  I'm really looking forward to receiving my refund real soon!

Just to prove I'm not a complete bastard, in this respect Brad has had a totally raw deal - he completely legally licensed the tapes from Bruce Morgan, and in any event, those tracks have been on literally hundreds of compilations (often low budget) since 1969 and the band didn't say word one... then suddenly they're claiming they own the tapes (wrong - Hite Morgan bankrolled the sessions) and also claiming something like $80 million in lost royalties on those sales. Excuse me ??!! No way are those handful of primitive recordings responsible for that much income.  I've heard it said that the suit was brought with malice aforethought, as an example. It's possible.

Sounds like karma to me.

lol billywheres that quote from??

Well, I obviously opened a can of worms!  My apologies to all.

For what it's worth, though, I'm certain that Brad had nothing to do with any of the SMILE bootlegs.  I think several people, one of whom I pointed AGD to (and I understand his reluctance to contact said person), can attest to the fact that they had to secure copies of various boots for Brad back in the day.  I certainly can; I know there were others.

The only boots I ever knew Brad had anything to do with -- and that was inadvertant -- were those terribly cheap "Bamboo" and "Brian Love You" records.  He was upfront that those were made (without his prior knowledge) from tapes he'd compiled for a circle of friends/fans/collectors.  (Compare that to the fact that Peter Reum was the one who actually pressed the legendary long-ago "Beach Boys Collectors Series" boots.)

On the other topic that AGD raised, I don't know all the details of Brad's medical problems, but I do know that he was quite ill for an extended period of time.  When I last talked to him (admittedly several years ago), he was dealing with serious kidney problems, undergoing lithotripsy (sp?) literally every month, having had something like two dozen kidney stones in a year.  I would think that it's very possible that such a chronic condition could tax a body sufficiently to cause cardiac problems, but hey, I'm not a doctor, so what do I know?

This board! I can't even remember who posted it, but I thought it was hilarious.

Lithotripsy is correct. I've had it - ultrasound is used to break up the stones. It's not at all pleasant, like being repeatedly punched in the kidneys. Much preferable to kidney stones, however.

But... fact is, he told several people (and I believe posted it on an MB) that it was the medication that caused his heart attack - and that's just not possible.

Me, me, me! Let's talk about how great I am some more!

Now I'm really confused about those reimbursements... I guess they didn't start as recently as I first imagined!
 ::)

Couple, several ... hell, I don't remember precisely when I talked to him!  I don't keep a diary, and I've long since tossed out the long distance phone bills from that time.  My best guess is that it was some time in 2007, but it may have been a year earlier.  Too much has gone down in my life since.

I'm not sure I would be so quick to state that as fact.  I'm certainly not a doctor, but these days anybody with Internet access can be an "armchair physician."

Googling information on kidney problems, especially kidney stones, reveals that one of the most common kinds of meds prescribed in connection with them are NSAIDs (nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) -- for pain.  If the pain is severe enough, prescription-strength NSAIDs are given.  One category of prescription NSAIDs is COX-2 inhibitors.  Back in 2004-2005, a number of such meds were withdrawn from the market, either by the manufacturer or by order of the FDA, because of (quoting from the Wikipedia article on Valdecoxib) "concerns about possible increased risk of heart attack and stroke."  Some of the brand names of NSAIDs removed included Vioxx, Ceoxx and Bextra.

Now I don't know that Brad was prescribed one of these meds, but the time frame seems about right.  As to a possible malpractice claim if he had been and then suffered a heart attack, the Wikipedia article on Rofecoxib (Vioxx) notes that more than 10,000 cases and 190 class actions have been filed against Merck (the manufacturer) "over adverse cardiovascular events associated with Rofecoxib and the adequacy of Merck's warnings." However, the history of litigation that's cited is mixed and not clear-cut.  Of the six cases that are specifically discussed in the article, plaintiffs have won only two, while Merck has successfully defended against four.  So, even when there's a goodly amount of evidence against the drug and its manufacturer, it's no sure thing that a malpractice claim will prevail.  For all we know, Brad's one of the claims and even part of a class action suit, and he may be in limbo, like so many apparently are, waiting to see what comes of it.

One more piece of information (quoted from Wikipedia):

"FDA analysts estimated that Vioxx caused between 88,000 and 139,000 heart attacks, 30 to 40 percent of which were probably fatal, in the five years the drug was on the market."

And this sad piece of news from last September:

The claims administrator (read: law firm) handling the claims for settlement has reviewed 48,507 claims - and rejected 40 percent of them!

Winning in a malpractice case is no sure thing.

Suspect this debate now needs a fresh thread titled "Lithotripsy" as it seems to have veered from "Spanish Guitar/Secret Smile 'Untitled Instrumental' ".

Please re-read what I originally had to say about this... hell, I'm feeling generous, I'll say it one more time: I asked my doctor (who had been treating me for almost identical renal complaints - stones, colic, infection, you name it - since 1975) if there was any medication for my condition that could induce a heart attack, and he said no, none at all. Then added that it wouldn't be much use anyway, 'cause if it did exist, no-one would take it. So, I'm not stating it as fact, my doctor was. Didn't google anything, just asked a man whose profession to was to know these things.

Further to this point, were this true, then Brad would have had a cast-iron case against the hospital, assuming the possible side effects were not outlined to him prior to treatment. But as far as I know,  he didn't sue anyone.

Impressive research - I tip my hat.

Problem is, aside from your own admission "I don't know that Brad was prescribed one of these meds", that your research stated that the meds in (possible) question were withdrawn in 2004/2005, which is some two or three years before you "last talked to him (admittedly several years ago), he was dealing with serious kidney problems... My best guess is that it was some time in 2007, but it may have been a year earlier." (Please excuse the conflated quote). So you - and he - are implying that his heart problems were caused by a medication that had, in fact, been withdrawn at least 12 months earlier. The heart attack thing came to light some years before 2007... my recollection isn't exact, but it was definitely pre-BWPS.

I'm not trying to start something here, but I'm just curious as to why Beach Head is defending Brad so much? I wouldn't go to these lengths unless the person was a good friend of mine or there was a serious error being made.

Talk about trying to twist what I said!

I never implied that any heart problems were occurring in 2006-2007.  That's simply when I last talked to him.  At that time, he was dealing with chronic kidney stones, but my understanding was that had been going on for some time - my impression was at least several years.

You yourself indicate "the heart attack thing came to light some years before 2007," and I'm saying that fits with the time frame for the large-scale prescribing and subsequent withdrawal from the market of Vioxx.  If he was having kidney problems at that time, is there any reason they couldn't still have been present several years later (when I talked to him)?  Like I've said, I'm no doctor, but my impression is that serious kidney problems often are forever.

I think that's true on both counts.  I do consider Brad a good friend of mine.  I've known him as a fellow collector and fan for more than 30 years.  And I do think there's a serious error being made - in attributing all sorts of bootlegs, especially the first SMILE vinyl, to him.  My personal knowledge of the situation says that's just out-and-out false.

And the bigger issue is not that these boots are attributed to him, but the fact that he took people's money and didn't give it back. Quit harping on the boots subject, because to be honest I don't think people here give a rats ass about who started what boot and why. They care about the fact that their hard earned money will never be seen again because they gave it to a jerk who, if he was an honest businessman, would have returned every last penny to those who gave it to him.

No argument there - mine have been going on since 1975, not as bad as they used to be, but still flare up now & then. Kidney stones are something I'd not wish on my worst enemy - if you've never experienced that degree of pain, you cannot possibly imagine it.

I sadly know exactly what you mean. Been dealing with this since 1998 myself.


Word.

I have to suggest that if Brad was such a good friend then I'd hope he'd be contributing to this debate by now to support and defend your own statements.

Your support for Brad in this thread, despite the general feeling against him from virtually everyone else (including myself) has been admirable and Id like to think the least he could do is publically support you and confirm what you have say about him.


Rather, I'd suggest it is he who should consider you a good friend.

I feel certain that if I contacted him, he'd do exactly that.  But my understanding of his situation is that he's the caregiver for a disabled wife, while dealing with his own chronic kidney problems.  I also suspect, based on what he said several years ago, that the continuing legal dispute related to his licensing and attempted release of the Hite Morgan tapes rages on (and incurs ever-greater lawyer bills).  To quote AGD (about another party mentioned in this thread), "he's got a lot on his plate and doesn't need this kind of frippery as well."

AGD:  Kidney stones are something I'd not wish on my worst enemy - if you've never experienced that degree of pain, you cannot possibly imagine it.

I can relate.  I've had both pancreatitis and diverticulitis.  Doctors I've talked to during those experiences said the top three most painful 'things' a human can have (I'm excluding chirldirth here) are, in this order, kidney stones, pancreatitis and diverticulitis.

It's especially excruciating when you're sitting in a hospital ER and just MOANING in pain, consistently for 5-6 hours, waiting to be "Next"?