The Smiley Smile Message Board

I've noticed a lot of buzz about SMiLE on other threads but no speculation on the release of a SMiLE box lately.  Those "in the know"  hinted on a SMiLE box on the 50th.  A reunion of some sort or the other has been discussed.  Another Hawthorne type release has been discussed.

But not lately.  If late 61 was the conception of the Beachboys, we are fast approaching 50 years.  These things don't happen over night.  Takes planning.   I sincerely hope this anniversary serves as an opportunity for the band and the record companies to pull out all of the stops.  Music, merchandise, performances, commerative books, radio and TV documentaries, and a new comprehensive DVD with lots of unreleased archival and personal BB/family footage.

Are managers, friends, family, suits, Brian and Mike, and spouses listening?  Or reading these threads?

My opinion on the possibilities of:

Performances - I think the only way Brian will do a concert with the other guys is if his management think that he needs to do it to boost his career. Al went from persona non grata to being part of Brian's band within a short space of time presumably because they thought it would help to shift tickets. As Brian is pretty busy right now, I don't see it happening.

Music - Can't see a new album happening. A live release is more likely - maybe from 1993 or a double CD which takes songs from right throughout the band's career. I would love a 50 song rarities album but I doubt the band would want it released. The Smile box set could come out but again only if Brian's management think it would benefit him. As it might overshadow BWPS, I don't expect it. Sadly I think there will be a lot more releases only as the band members die off one by one.

Documentaries - Very possible.

Books - Not sure an official book would be that interesting.

Merchandise - There probably will be slightly more than normal I guess.

DVD - That could be interesting and Billy has said before that he would be happy for Brother to use his material for an official DVD.

I read Al will only do a reunion if it's a full scale tour. Dream on Al!!! Can you honestly see Brian saying yes to a full scale tour? I think the answer would be to a big one off concert/t.v special. Maybe with some guests like The Band did in "Last Waltz". The key is not to keep them all together for too long, if not it's only a matter of time before they all fall out again.
Another Hawthorn type comp would be great but in reality we will probably get another "Endless Summer" clone. (Still fingers crossed eh?)
I don't think the Smile boxset will come out. Ever. More chance of Brian's Manson sessions getting an official release.
Hate to sound so negative but I'm just not going to get my hopes up. Keep expections low and then whatever happens will be.  I'm positive SOMETHING will happen for the 50th even if it's just another doc. The half century anniversary of "America's Band" cant go by without any marking of the occasion and I'm sure BRI have something in mind but just what remains to be seen.

Man, I've heard of outlandish statements in my days of Beach Boys fandom ("Keepin' the Summer Alive is underrated", "Looking Back With Love is a great album", "Brian Wilson is a genius"), but THAT one in my quote takes the cake. As long as there is a Beach Boys organization, band members dead or alive, the ONLY way we'll see those come out in any form whatsoever is if someone literally steals those tapes out of the band's vaults and shares them with fans. Christ, even Country Love, Rubles, and The Battle Hymn of the Republic will come out before those recordings do!

I understand we as Beach Boys fans prefer to live in our own little fantasy worlds because it suits our individual beliefs regarding the band, but let's keep it a BIT in the realm of reality. Yeah, sure...I enjoy the Lie album as much as anyone else who finds that album appealing, but...there ain't a snowball's chance in hell of the Brian/Carl-produced Manson recordings coming out in any form. As far as things we thought would never happen, Brian performing Smile live is one thing. Michael throwing in a bunch of rarities in Beach Boys concerts is another. But as long as people in the band's organization have air in their lungs, those Brian/Carl-produced Manson recordings will NEVER come out.

While I would like to see a number of projects, I think we'll see only two. The first will be a documentary; maybe the PBS American Masters series? The second I'm guessing will be a single CD comp with a title like The Beach Boys : Gold - The 50th Anniversary Collection, with the usual "hits". I'll go out on a limb and predict a single song, maybe the closing track on the comp, will be a newly composed song from Brian, with Mike, Al, and Bruce on vocals/harmonies.

For the Manson sessions to be 'liberated', they first have to be found, and my understanding is that doing so is going to be almost impossible: you really think they're kept on the racks labelled "Manson sessions at Bellagio" ?  Those puppies are buried good and deep.

Relax it's was just me using a little of my dry English wit.

They're hidden away with the Surf's Up 2nd movement tapes, I knew it! :lol

...Oh my ::)

Brian doesn't need to boost his career for one thing. There are many scenerios for a very successful 50 anniversary reunion tour!

My lineup would look like this:

Brian Wilson
Mike Love
Alan Jardine
Bruce Johnston
David Marks
Dean O Torrence

The backup band could consist of The Wondermints or the Beach Boys touring band or some of both. It would be a shame to miss this last opportunity to reunite for selfish reasons. They should think of the fans. Dean Torrence would be a great addition especially since Jan&Dean and The Beach Boys were so close in the early-mid 60's.

NO. Why do people think this a good idea? The Band started off as a backing band, they were showing their strengths in doing other people's songs. Did you notice that it wasn't other people singing The Band covers?

Aside from that, this things become dated really quickly. The 20th anniversary special sucked because of all those guests. Maybe it seemed cool at the time, but just look at it now.

I think the reception Brian's Gershwin album receives will go a long way towards affecting whether he will reunite or not.

Yes but in "The Last Waltz" they weren't for the most part random people up there on stage with them.  They were people who's careers had crossed paths with The Band musically.  My suggestion was more along those lines.  Blondie Chaplin getting up on stage and busting out "Sail on Sailor "like it was '73 again? Macca playing bass to "God Only Knows"? Dean joining them for a"Barbara Ann" sing-along? How about Van Dyke Parks performing one or two Smile numbers with them?  Does this really sound that shite to you?

No offence to Dean but he ain't a Beach Boy and I've never thought his voice – despite Barbara Ann - matched the blend. At all. If there's a gig , then yes, get him up to do the lead on BA, but otherwise let him enjoy it from behind a camera lens!   ::)

I think a release of the Brian/Carl produced Manson sessions would be far more interesting than a Smile box recycling boot material we all have access to (but of course never listen to as it would be wrong).  As unlikely as it of course is to happen.  Maybe the original, fully produced Cease to Exist as a bonus track on a comp with Never Learn Not to Love on it?

What do you have pasted to your eyelids that's so appealing? You always seem to be looking up at them. :)

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While I don't think there will be a reunion concert, if there would be, and if they wanted to incorporate "guests", I think the guests should have to have a connection to the song(s) they're performing on - which would eliminate outsiders like McCartney. You could bring out the Honeys for backing vocals on "Be True To Your School", maybe Glen Campbell for "Do You Wanna Dance"/"Dance Dance Dance", Dean Torrence for "Barbara Ann", and Blondie & Ricky for "Sail On Sailor".

Serious question time - do they still exist? I mean, we know sessions happened, but someone destroying a session tape with Manson written on it isn't really out of the realms of possibilty, is it?

perhaps i am being naive, but i think that for anyone who loved music or cared about music (and i imagine that almost everyone in the beach boys organization, beneath the greed and whatever else, does love music), actually destroying a tape would be very difficult to do, no matter whose name was on it.  hiding it, mislabeling it, perhaps, in a worst case scenario, leaving it lying around in a place where it would almost surely be lost or forgotten or even thrown out, maybe.  but conciously tossing the only copy of anything...i just can't see someone who loved music doing that. 

I'm not sure why people think a Smile box will never, ever happen. Wasn't it pretty close to happening several times, the most note worthy being after the Pet Sounds box? Like, REALLY really intended to happen but then something went wrong?

Obviously BWPS has come out since then - that's why I say that if there is a Smile box set, put BWPS on it. It's relevant, it's good, and it pleases everyone - Brian's proper, completed version of it is presented alongside the original tapes, nothing is overshadowed, etc. etc. etc.

I don't think it's too far out of the question at all.

This thread title is a bit misleading, by the way.

Vega-Tables?

Yeah he could munch on a carrot or two!!  The reason I put him in with "God Only Knows" is he seems to have a very deep connection to the song. He has praised it alot and it seems to have inspired some of his songwriting ideas  around this time.

I doubt that's realistic at all.

Firstly because the record labels wouldn't agree to it.

Secondly because I guess the band members wouldn't agree to it.

Thirdly, how would it not be overshadowed??? One disc you get to hear Brian in the 60s, the next you are listening to his voice 40 years later.

It's time to put the kettle on...    :)

There's no argument to that...

I actually associate Paul McCartney more with his praise of Pet Sounds than him sitting in on a session of "Vegetables". But, as somebody mentioned, I don't think it would be a good idea to go the 25th Anniversary route and bring on guests (i.e. Belinda Carlisle, Gloria Loring, The Fabulous Thunderbirds, or even Ray Charles), no matter how great they may be. I would like to see the focus on The Beach Boys five surviving members. The other "guests" I mentioned, The Honeys, Glen Campbell, Blondie & Ricky, and even Dean Torrence (who could also serve as MC) were an actual part of the history, and could actually add some sentimentality to a reunion concert. Wouldn't it be kind of cool to have those "old friends" make an appearance. You could even have Van Dyke Parks play the piano for "Heroes And Villains", or accordian for "Lahaina Aloha". :-D

OK with me, as long as the whole casts ends the show with an 8 minute singalong/karaoke version of Kokomo. A classic, generation-spanning achievement.

Practical reasons aside, I think it makes perfect sense to have BWPS represented in some form, either included on a cd, or have the original sessions sequenced a la BWPS, as closely as the original song structures will allow.

I think the one glaring problem with a smile box is how to sequence it. You either arrange the sessions chronologically and leave it at that (a bit dry, I think many would agree), or you set aside part of the box as a playable Smile 'album'. If this is to happen, it would seem crazy to toss Brian & VDP's 2004 sequence out the window wouldn't it, certainly in favour of an arbitrary imagining of how the album might have played in 67?

Maybe the presence of BWPS in a smile box might prompt the other BBs to dig around in their archives for evidnce of a solid 67 sequence. Mike: "Oh wadda y'know, Hereos was supposed to be 12 mins long - listen to this Brian!"

The only other solution as I see it, would be to use the handwritten list as a guide, but peronally I'd prefer a nod to the BWPS sequence.

I'm predicting a 50th Anniversary SMiLE boxed set in 2016 or 2017. I think it'll be similar to the Pet Sounds boxed set, maybe four or five CD's with track/vocals only and various versions/mixes.

What I would really like to see is a single CD released, a sampler if you will. You've seen these type CD's; the Byrds immediately come to mind. I'd like to see this single CD have each SMiLE song represented (I think it would fit on an 80 min. CD), with the most "finished" tracks put in a logical sequence. Now, that's the million dollar question(s). What are the most "finished" tracks and what sequence do you use? I think the "experts" chosen to assemble the songs could tackle the most "finished" question without too much controversy, but what sequence do you use? I wouldn't go with a chronological approach and I definitely wouldn't go with BWPS (because that was sequenced for a live performance). I do think if the people sequencing the songs stick to the consensus (whatever THAT means but you know what I mean - the safe route) -  and state ahead of time that it is in no way the FINISHED SMiLE sequence (unlike what Brian Wilson said in 2004), then I think the sequence would be accepted. It's just a sampling taken from a boxed set, that's all, not the definitive sequence.

EDIT: I almost forgot....I'd like to see that single CD use Frank Holmes's original cover and artwork.

I'm one of those who doesn't see this happening, unless Brian changes his mind since his statement it would only come out "over his dead body".  Which might be the case by 2016 or 2017 (no Sheriff you weren't being morbid - I am)

Also - sorry, fellow fans - while musicheads would grab it, the further out this goes, the less interest there will be among music consumers generally, assuming they aren't getting all their music via subscription services or download/upload servers by then.  Hard copies and maybe a vinyl pressing will be luxury items for collector-types who dig that sort of thing.  Over time the public will more and more be consigning the BB to the boomer oldies scrapheap along with the Drifters, Four Seasons, CCR, the Rascals and other perfectly good bands but the memory thereof recedes as the years advance.

The speculation of what such a box set would contain is interesting, though.

A SMiLE box would be great if it could give us;

1.  Great Sound Quality.  I forget what I have and where I got it...but I hope all this stuff (and more) exists somewhere, untouched for 40 years -- in pristine MASTER TAPE quality.  I have high-hopes on this.  At least an improvement over what I have -- which is why it's number 1.  A SMiLE box MUST deliver on this.    :brow

2.  Alt Mixes.  Like the discovery of the Alt Heroes mix...I'd love to hear what other acetates or mixdowns exists.  It seems unlikely to me that Brian didn't mix down a bunch of this stuff -- to take back to the pad to sample what he was working on ...and smoke big lsd-dipped hash joints (??) listening to it in the tent, eating hash brownies, while smoking pot.  There HAS TO be (or HAD to be) tons of mixes for this purpose.  While they might be hard to find, I stand by their existence...which is why its number 2.   :brian

3.  All other New Finds.  Ah yes...the "un-booted."  Anything new.  A new vocal we never new existed.  A tag, a transition...anything.  I really don't remember all the sessionography stuff...so maybe there really isn't anything left to find...but...c'mon!  There's gotsta be sumpin!   :quote


While I'd LOVE a single-disk SMiLE approximation...this isn't key to me...which is why I didn't list it.  It would be a MASSIVE bonus if Brian DID do this. :o  Frankly, I'd be just fine with a BWPS version of the original tapes...because it is EXCELLENT and hands down DESTROYS every other version I've heard/made -- and I'd rather have it done professionally (or possible by the man himself!) than for me to do all the work and stuff on my computer.   :P  But its absence wouldn't be deal-breaker for me.

Regardless of what we get...a SMiLE box, I would be all over.  And it remains on my list of demands.   ;D ...even if there's is NOTHING new or improved over what I have. Some list of demands!

I'd say that there simply has to be quite a lot of yet-unheard material. Unfinished, for sure; otherwise prolly more songs would have been used as 'luxurious filler material' like Cabinessence on 20/20. But with my statistical nose in full swing: it is unlikely, very unlikely that we have heard everything of interest (not that we ever bought and heard anything untoward, mind, we're good people over here, with a keen eye on the Law).

What if we founded a Hamburger-and-Pizza Delivery Service and brought Brian a truckload of our goodies every day (in secret, sneaking the stuff past his wife and managers) and asked him for a slight favor in return?

I[/quote]

OK with me, as long as the whole casts ends the show with an 8 minute singalong/karaoke version of Kokomo. A classic, generation-spanning achievement.[/quote]

True then for extra added value entertainment can a little ring be set up by the side of the stage so after the song ends Mike and VDP can duke it out once and for all in a boxing/wrestling match?  >:D

What? After all of those great ideas from the "Your personal SMiLE mix" thread? ;D

Seriously, I would want the single CD to be able to reach the masses, instead of a limited audience who would invest in an expensive boxed set. Wouldn't that SMiLE CD look cool in a CD bin right after Pet Sounds, unless, as Dr. Tim pointed out, there IS a CD in the next decade! :o

OK with me, as long as the whole casts ends the show with an 8 minute singalong/karaoke version of Kokomo. A classic, generation-spanning achievement.[/quote]

True then for extra added value entertainment can a little ring be set up by the side of the stage so after the song ends Mike and VDP can duke it out once and for all in a boxing/wrestling match?  >:D
[/quote]

OK. But only if I get the chance to secretly inform VDP, so that he can train off that paunch he has beforehand... because I want him to win. It's not really rigging, this, it's creating a fair and balanced view on things, or something...

My money's on Mike.  ;)

If they don't include a 1967 version of BWPS, it's no big deal, cuz I could (and would) just make one myself -- that was the point I was attempting to make there.  But since making my own BWPS out of the "improved sound quality" materials would be a lot of work...I guess I would appreciate it if they did this for me... :)  but it's not a deal breaker.

If Brian creates a NEW finished version, that's different.  Definitely include that -- that's huge!!!  But I'm not expecting him to.  Nor am I demanding that the producers of said box make a SMiLE mix -- as they see it -- outside of doing it BWPS style.  Anything else would just make it more confusing. 


That's a good point.  You know...I really can't imagine them not doing one.  Which do you think will appear;

1.  A 1967 BWPS?
2.  A new SMiLE mix by, I don't know...Mark Linnett or David Leaf, Bruce Johnston??  Paul McCartney?   :brow
3.  Brian Wilson presents his own SMiLE mix tape?

4.  ...or all the SMiLE stuff really was completed afterall....and Brian just needed to assemble it. ;D

Choice 2. Or, more specifically, a TEAM consisting of guys like Boyd, Linnett, Leaf, etc.

Most samplers taken from boxed sets are done in chronological order, but SMiLE would have definite "flow" problems using that approach. And, if you're going to include stuff like "He Gives Speeches", "With Me Tonight", "You're Welcome", and "Tones", which I hope they would, then you can't use the BWPS sequence - because it would mess with THAT sequence by squeezing/inserting songs in there.

I don't have an answer other than grouping the stuff as Americana, childhood, elements, etc. At least we could keep the fades and not have to manufacture movements. Obviously, it will never please everybody - what else is new - but, again, state upfront that this is not trying to be the definitive SMiLE sequence. Brian took care of that in 2004.

....hmm.

You know...I'm still haunted by a twelve track SMiLE.  I'm done (or am I) trying to make one.  BWPS is perfect and blessed by the artist.  It really is amazing...I stand by my comments!  But it's 17 tracks and three movements.  ?  That could not have happened in 1967!  Ahhhh!!!!!!

 :-D

BWPS is not the definitive track sequence, it's the studio version of songs from Smile arranged for live performance.

My BWPS CD ain't no live performance! ;)

We all remember Mike suing Brian over the release of BWPS, don't we?  He lost, but he would certainly sue over a release of the Beach Boys Smile tapes UNLESS he was given significant input (and royalties) from the project.
'
Knowing that, I would propose a one CD Beach Boys Smile with Mike completing the lyrics to songs like Song for Children (more like a sequel to "Roller Skating Child") and Child is Father of the Man ( "Dennis is the father of my grandchild"), and Mike replacing/altering the lyrics to Worms ("Rock, Rock, roll, Beethoven roll over" might work), Holidays ("Holidays in Kokomo"), I'm in Great Shape, Dada/Blue Hawaii, The Elements (some great Mike "fire" lyrics, maybe about some hot chick stoking his fire).  He might want to tackle rewriting Surf's Up (with more traditional surfing lyrics, subtitle the song "Do It Again Part 2) and the tag to Cabinessence, since those were his main objections to the album at the time.  Mike would sing most of the leads, with one for Al and one for Bruce.  Then they could take this new version of Smile on tour for the 50th anniversary tour, reuniting Mike, Al, Bruce and Brian for the last time!

I've said it before. I'll say it again.

Brian has final say on a Smile sessions release. And that came about from the blessings of Michael, Carl, and Al, who sold their rights to the Smile recordings to Brian, effectively making Brian the head honcho. Michael would have no case.

Agree. But I think the only interest Mike would have anyway would be how much his cut will be.

What do you think the chances are, that in the next 6-7 years, a sharp Capitol Records executive (and maybe even a fan of SMiLE) contacts Melinda and makes her an offer she can't refuse. Then, Melinda sells the idea to Brian, and before you know it, Brian is announcing that a SMiLE boxed set is coming out. Possible, probable, or no chance?

I think AGD said the original plans for the box were to include one disc with a  proper, playable version of the album as best they could manage with the original tapes.

I also agree about using the BWPS sequence - in fact, I'd hope for it.

Michael would gain, at most, performance royalties. If Michael were to try and sue again to try and get a bigger cut, it would simply be thrown out as a meritless case and the judge would rule that Michael sold his share of the rights to Brian.

Due to Brian owning the rights to the material, it's effectively in his ballpark as to what label puts it out. Most likely, he would have Capitol put it out because potentially shopping the recordings to another label for a release would most likely result in a suit from Capitol Records to gain control of the release in order to collect their share of the profits, or, even worse if Brian were to defend himself in that suit and win, Capitol could potentially thumb their noses at Brian, say "f*** you", and sue him for the sum of the recording fees that Capitol put up for the project - recording costs, musician fees, the junked covers. In that case, most likely, Capitol would definitely come out swinging with a huge paycheck from Brian.

:h5

The other Boys sold their rights to the SMiLE recordings to Brian? Or, what? I don't think I follow.

Basically they sold their votes on them to Brian. I believe it was in 1996 or so. Before then a release had to be approved by all the members of BRI. Since then, Brian makes the decisions.

Really. I've never heard this. Just on the SMiLE recordings?

The recordings themselves, yes.

I think you underestimate:
a) the incredible influence/stock put in the beach boys by indie/lowfi music in the 90s and today, making the audience essentially two large groups of "music heads" ... the young and the old, which would add up to considerable interest. 

also, the press would jump on it, i imagine, as they did with BWPS.  I mean look how many copies dennis wilson sold.  and most of that, my sense is, was not to aging boomers, it was to young people who hear their favorite bands from the last decade say, "man that dennis wilson, his record was so hard to find in the 80s but we dug it hard" or reading about it in pitchfork or whatever. 

basically, the smile audience isn't going away for a long time. 

Flag on the play - Brian does not (as far as I'm aware, and as ever, stand to be corrected) own the rights to Smile. Capitol (currently) does - they paid for the sessions. Yes, when the band left, they took with them the rights to all the post 1965 albums, but these rights (along with those for all the post 1969 material) were leased to Capitol for the 2000 Brother 2fers, and that deal was renewed a few years later. For whatever reason, Capitol are deferring to Brian's wishes. Trust me, the moment he says "yes", there'll be a box out so fast you'll hear the sonic boom.  :)

AGD, do you think Brian is planning for this to be a posthumous release (whenever that may be)?

or at least once his recording career has definitely finished?

AGD...since you say that Brian does NOT own the SMiLE music -- by saying that Capitol would release a box in second with Brian's approval -- are you also suggesting that this might be to avoid any "issues" with surviving members?  Mike I guess, really.

OR are you just saying Capital would be all over it, just because?

Eh, I kinda see SMiLE as a 12 track album since they really never worked on "I'm on Great Shape" that much...unless they did and it's hidden in Al Capone's vault  :-D

Well, if a boxed set or at least a proper "Smile" album isn't a possibility, have 'em plunder the vaults and Brian cram together a cohesive 20-minute "Heroes and Villains / I'm In Great Shape / Barnyard" suite.  There, problem solved. :-P

Capitol have been aching to release a Smile box for over 20 years: they've gone so far as announcing one at least once. They're well aware of the kudos, if not the financial reward, that such a release would bring them. They're up for it, big time.

It's been argued that 'Brian' blocking the box was because it would overshadow BWPS... but that was back in 2004 when it was confidently stated (not predicted, but stated, as a fact) that said album would go gold by December, and by a name everyone here would know. Five years later, that still hasn't happened, and if anything, releasing a Smile Sessions 1966-67 box would boost the sales of BWPS (such as they are). Such a box will be released, when Brian's management sees fit. My impression is that the Gershwin project could be a major work, prolonging his solo career for a few years yet. So... a release in 2016 ?

If your prediction turns out to be correct it'll still be out way before Al's solo CD.

Hey, I'm only 24 and I listen to all those bands!

Waddya mean it hasn't gone gold yet? THE album of the year, 2004, rave reviews, sell-out concerts (with folk in evening attire, I remember, for the debut!), named album of the decade here and there and it STILL ain't gone gold?   There are at least nine copies in this household alone... doesn't everyone here have nine copies?  I bet Mike Love has a couple (factory sealed) at least to give his lawyers.

What does something have to sell these days to go gold?

I believe it sold something like 700,000 units total, but we're talking worldwide. Usually, specific to each country, their recording industries have their own values as to what constitutes a gold record. In the USA and UK, it's 500,000 units sold IN THAT COUNTRY to be considered a gold record. I think in the UK BWPS sold around 300,000 and was (I think) a #8 album. In USA it was #13, and I believe sold around 150,000-200,000.

And all this time I thought Beach Boys fans didn't equate commercial success with artistic quality. I'm crushed. Really, I am. It can be Album of the Year/Decade/Century/All-Time, have a hundred and thirty-seven rave reviews, be the subject of SOME sold-out concerts (let's NOT get greedy now...), but if it ain't a bloody gold record, the fan community goes into a core dump and leaves us a collective blue screen of death?  :lol

Curious choice of screen colour that – Bloo?

I simply gobsmacked that it didn't notch gold after all the wonderful OTT publicity it had.

Oh, and the music was okay too.

Hey man, it just goes to prove that storied point that it doesn't matter how good it is but how marketable it is. Roughly 700,000 copies sold worldwide is admirable for Brian's standards, but statistically insignificant in the long run. Unless of course it's a situation like Pet Sounds with a ton of uncatalogued sales - in which case, in 2038, the album will be certified gold around the world and platinum a month later! :)

you're right -  an' this could be a slow burner that sells steadily for many years to come rather than a flash in the pan.

Slow burner, perhaps. Slow burner on the level of, say, Dark Side of the Moon, doubtful. Just the fact that it sold about 700,000 worldwide and was a top 20 LP in many territories is quite admirable for Brian as a solo performer, and he most certainly does deserve it. To use the tired old saying, he was made for these times for once. Certainly, it charted higher than any Beach Boys album since 15 Big Ones - not even the Sounds of Summer compilation was as big of a success on the charts, although it did eventually go over double platinum in the USA in mid-2006.

Even the DVD sold very respectably. I would say, considering Brian's standing as a solo artist independent of the Beach Boys as well as his track record as a solo artist before BWPS came around, the BWPS project was a resounding success.

Certainly, that should be good enough.

In the US, to go gold you have to sell 500,000 copies with dollar sales of at least $1 million, based on one-third of the list price (no, I don't know what it means either, but that's what the RIAA rules are). A UK gold album needs to sell 100,000 copies - which BWPS did by November 19th the year it was released. The UK platinum level is 300,000 sales, which it has yet to achieve.

Brian Wilson reportedly sold 450,000 when originally released in the US.

The BWPS DVD has been certified as platinum in the US, which means it sold over 50,000 units (as a 2-disc package, both DVDs counted towards the 100,000 required).

Although BWPS debuted high in the US chart (#13), it didn't have that long a run - 17 weeks - and nine of those weeks were spent outside the top 150. Thus:

13-27-34-58-56-82-110-150-183-188-167-159-147-173-164-165-192
   

For dummys like me, are down loaded albums included or just hard-copy CDs?

I would imagine the lack of a hit single on a album would cost album sales. GV while a different version to us, was just a BW solo for most so lacked the home run of say a 'Money' that Dark Side had.

Would a reissue count towards the total?  I would think that the reissue of Brian Wilson would have sold 50,000 copies, thus pushing the album to Gold status in the US.

I'd def buy the boxset just cause those original sessions are very good companion pieces.  hearing the Purple Chick version helped me appreciate BWPS and vise versa.

It sounds quite unrealistic.

It does read like a bit of a fan's wishlist in retrospect but I can dream can't I? Hey while I'm at it - may I propose a live satellite link up from 'ole Charlie Manson's cell for a duet of "Never Learn not to Love"! LOL.  When I posted the original comment I was a little taken back by how strongly opposed to the idea Aegir  was. I think he may have had visions of me petitioning to get Lady Ga Ga up on stage with them or something.

Don't knock the GaGa, she's the rare pop star in modern times who knows what she's talking about.

Eh, Dick, she actually can talk, I mean, produce decipherable strings of words?

Great, I now of visions of her and Mike doing a raunchy cover of "Summer of Love" at the concert!

Dude, I saw an interview with her on Oprah (of all shows), and she clearly out-talked and outwitted Oprah. I would argue it's not too hard to outwit Oprah, but Lady GaGa left her in the dust. We can disagree on her music (I don't love it, but it's something to shake your ass to), but she does have a fresh perspective on things and she does have some interesting things to say. I would argue that that is the reason she was completely shut out at the Grammy Awards, because the Grammy folks don't like artists who say stuff they don't like, or, God forbid, think for themselves.

While Capitol has a claim on the SMile sessions because they paid for them, Brian and BRI have physical possession of the tapes and Capitol would not release the sessions (and cannot, because they don't physically have them) without the artists' permission.  That would include I would think the surviving members of the group who perform on the tapes as well, Mike and Al.  If Brian signed off on a Smile box, Capitol might go ahead and release it over the objections of Mike and Al, but I doubt it, especially since Mike has proven himself litigation happy.

As long as Mike gets a cut, I'm sure he would go along with a release.

Hmmm... thanks, I did not know that. I am a fan now.

As long as Brian got all the cut, I'm sure he did go along with a release.

I know...I apologize...no group hug here I guess.

Why can't they put it out to raise funds for Haiti or something? Ease our consciences at spending all that dough on music we already have, and quieten any tears about how big each band member's cut should be.

Bruce J talked about putting a box together for UNICEF back in the 80s (though it asn't his baby to play with really) so there might be sympathy in some quarters for such a plot.

Honestly at this point I'd just like them to clean out the vaults. It would be nice if they put out two disc versions of all the albums. I'd like to see stereo mixes of the early albums, nonalbum tracks like The Little Girl I Once Knew, and all the still bootlegged/unreleased and unbootlegged/unreleased tracks out there. Just clean out the vaults I say, put Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again out there, officially release Looking Down The Coast. It would be nice if they just gave the whole recorded output the deluxe treatment and released it all as a big box set like The Beatles did last year.

The entire output of the Beach Boys would be a much larger box than the Beatles. 

  I think a new box is in order.  The 93 box could easily be replaced and would sell well....IMO....that is id people are still buying CD's.  I bought the 2nd Byrds box and listen to it almost exclusively over the first one.

Add to that, a SMiLE set of some kind, and a new DVD career retrospective with a combination of the best of the existing footage along with unreleased footage....say of family movies, Billy H material, and so on.  Surely the BW birthday with Macca isn't the only party ever filmed.

And I want Merchandise!  Good merchandise.  I want a quality t shirt, license plate, and bumperstickers with the Coca Cola style logo.  The Mike and Bruce stuff has too many cheap looking car and surf designs and Brian's stuff usually ends up looking goofy.....they are buried in my t shirt drawer.

Remember the great BB t shirts of the 70's and early eighties?

I would love a reunion but I'm afraid I'd be disappointed with the inevitable compromise by committee.  But surely Mike and Brian could guest with each other a couple of times?

I would think Mike, Al and Bruce would be  for a release of any SMiLE tapes to compare, better or worse, with BWPS.

'Mike Love Presents The Real Smile'?

As far as I can tell the Boys have always wanted SMiLE to be released by the group and even took the initiative to get Brian on board to release some of it and otherwise have been waiting around on Brian. I think that is part of what turns me off to BWPS, the Boys have been waiting for the time Brian gets on board to get it out and when he does in a big way, they are cut out all together [I presume] and sort of have their noses rubbed in it by hacking their songwriting from one of their songs.

Mike didn't have his finest human hour in his suit after BWPS but Brian, to me, didn't have his finest human hour in BWPS the album.

Hmmm... you raise a moral point here, Cam. I can see where you're standing, I can emphatize. The Boys worked hard on Smile. It got aborted. 37 years later, it's released, but in an altered fashion, and Brian reaps all the praise.

But I don't think one should accuse Brian of being calculating, or having some sort of agenda. As the co-creator of Smile, and intellectual owner of the project, he was fully entitled to finish the project with his then-collaborator, and to play it live.

This was hinted at in the BWPS Final Verdict thread too.  So everyone's on the same page:  Mike did not lose any writing credit on GV, you can check the CD metadata, and of course the LP label.   He couldn't lose credit even if there was a plan to try.  It just would not have happened.  GV is a finished, published composition and even if a whole new lyric was substituted he would keep his co-author credit.  What happened of course is Asher's scrub verses were used too, resulting in a third co-credit.  I think Andrew pointed out they forgot to nail down Asher's OK before doing that, and had to scramble a bit.   Yes yes I know, the record cover does not give Mike or Asher a name-check; nor does it give name-checks to the Crows, or the authors of "I Wanna Be Around", "OMP" and "Sunshine".  But legally, the correct credits are given, somewhere, and the publishers were duly paid.

So whether Mike is aware of it or not - or likes it or not  - his name is on Smile, specifically, BWPS, and always will be.

I think what Brian did with BWPS was the right thing to do at the time, as far as resurrecting the project goes, whether you regard it as the last word on SMiLE or not.

If he'd got the BBs back together to finish it, the result would have had the intellectual standing, taste and quality of another Stars and Stripes project* – nice but artistically void, an essentially pointless – and we'd all be dissing it to death right now, and crying into our mugs of tea about "what could have been".

* Anyone comes on and says that's their favourite album and I'll make 'em change my 11-month-old's next nappy**.

** That's "my 11-month-old's nappy", not "my 11-month-old nappy"***

*** I don't wear nappies, okay?

Yep. And we would, drunk from anger and regret, agree on one issue: Brian should have finished the damn thing by himself and have recorded it with his own band. He'd even might have considered doing it live, although that's very far-fetched...

Sure, well within rights, nobody cheated of songwriting credit, still a great accomplishment, glad for Brian et al, etc., etc., BUT still a chicken dauber move toward the rest of the group to me.

What always bugs the crap out of me is when over zealous fans bash Mike over Smile. "Mike hated Smile! He's the reason it got shitcanned back in '67!" "Mikes 's criticism of the project caused Brian to have a breakdown and lose confidence in his abilities!"... and so on. What people seem to forget is that Mike WAS a member of the group and was perfectly entitled to voice his opinion (some might even argue obliged) on the material being produced in the studio. He was also fronting the band live and quite rightly had concerns about whether the existing live band could reproduce on stage the new songs. Now, I love Smile and think Mike was wrong but right or wrong it was HIS prerogative to make.  I also wonder if I would have readily agreed with everything Brian was doing if I'd been in Mike's shoes back then.

Perhaps Brian didn't do everything that met with Mike's blessings however Mike's shoes as well as pockets were full of cash because Brian did what he did-the Lovester did well because of his cousin. He still does.

I always come back to this one conclusion regarding the whole Brian blaming Michael thing for Smile.

But don't you find it a little hypercritical that whenever the two are feuding that's always the first shot fired across the bow - "You ruined Smile!" and yet at other times Brian will acknowledge that there were many reasons it didn't happen?

Eh? I've heard of being hypocritical, but what the hell is being hypercritical? Is that like being hypocritical on a caffeine binge?

That would be my spell checker not doing it's job.  Shall I write it on the blackboard correctly 50 times or something?

50 times, yes. And then another 100 times, write "Brian killed Smile." :)

Well yeah, NOW it's obvious that there were other things involved. I think that quite a few of the BB fans have realized by now that  it wasn't just the 'Mike Love Hates SMiLE' show. The problem, though, is something that was brought up in another link somewhere a while back; that there had been alot of emphasis in the past on the negativity of the BB's toward Brian's 'New Music', and it was pretty much a one-sided story.
I'll tell you something. When I first got into SMiLE was when I really first got into the BB's. I had liked them before, but I didn't get them until I heard PS and SMiLE. So I started looking for whatever books or articles, documentaries I could. And most of them painted the same picture. That Brian was on the edge of the new horizon of music, he was creating stuff nobody had done yet. Everyone around him loved it. It was going to ruin The Beatles and The Beach Boys-with Genius Brian Wilson at the helm-were going to take over the world. Then, the BB's came home, heard the music, and made life a living hell for the poor Genius. They broke his heart and his spirit, and he had to SCRAP it.
Well, as we have all talked about before, the story goes a lot deeper than that, and there's blame to go around for EVERYONE. Brian, The BB's, The Vosse Posse, Capitol Records. It's a deep story, and we'll never probably know what the final straw was for Brian.

Good post. I wonder why any writers never bothered to ask Mike for his side of things. Everyone seemed to take David Leaf's spin on things as the gospel. A classic case of not wanting the truth to get in the way of a good story perhaps?

A point to ponder - Mike may well have hated the lyric to "Cabin Essence", but the indisputable fact is, he sang that lyric, and sang it damn well too. If he'd really wanted to bring Smile crashing down, all he had to do was say to Brian "F*** it, I'm not singing this s***".

Good point.

"Perhaps Brian didn't do everything that met with Mike's blessings however Mike's shoes as well as pockets were full of cash because Brian did what he did-the Lovester did well because of his cousin. He still does."

I concur and would add perhaps the Boys didn't do everything that met with Brian's blessings however Brian's shoes as well as pockets were full of cash because the Boys did what they did - the BDub did well because of the Boys. He still does. [Aren't I adorable?]

Indeed he does sing it very well but I think it is worth noting "Cabinessance" tag aside, Mike is given NO lead vocals on the Smile sessions. His role was undoubtedly becoming marginalized compared to what it was in the early days. I do wonder if maybe he felt he was getting 'squeezed' out at this stage. First he is cut out of the songwriting partnership on two consecutive albums and now he is a lead vocalist being given less to sing than the bass and lead guitarist. I doubt he just wanted to be the best bass harmoniser around and perhaps this may have been an unspoken reason for much of the conflict.

Yep they have all made their ex wives very rich over the years I imagine.

Um....yeah.

Just because we haven't heard any lead vocals doesn't mean there aren't-or weren't-any.  For all we know, he could've been the one Brian wanted to sing lead on 'DYLW', or 'CIFOTM'.  The odd thing about SMiLE is, for all the music that was laid down, there does seem to be a lack of lead vocals recorded.

For what it's worth, Michael had lead vocals on several Heroes and Villains outtakes - there's a test mix going around of the first verse with Brian and Michael trading off on the lead vocal, and of course, Michael sang on the Cantina bit.

It was also announced that Mike was to sing the lead on H&V back in the day but I guess that changed or it sits on the long sought 6 minute H&V I & II.

I don't think his range really extends far enough for him to sing the verse - hence the trade off between him and Brian.

yeah, 'bout as cute as a leper. The absence of logic in that post goes far beyond any boundaries known by mankind, let alone anyone here. I can see it now-"The Beach Boys perform the songs of Mike Love"-a concert with 25 tickets sold the night of the show and lasting all of 20 minutes. Free hats to all!

Perhaps the cuteness of Cam Mott is questionable but he is correct. What sort of lack of logic is there in accusing Brian of beneffiting from having a fully functioning touring band going out and playing his songs to paying crowds and racking in millions of dollars and keeping the Beach Boys name out there and relevent.

How about an evening of "Brian Wilson songs written without a co-writer/lyricist"?

This brings up a fun exercise: how about we try and imagine if Brian were an only child and without a cousin named Mike Love. No Carl or Dennis! Would The Beach Boys have existed? Would Al have pushed Brian into joining his folk combo? The mind reels.

hypercritical |ˌhīpərˈkritikəl|
adjective
excessively and unreasonably critical, esp. of small faults.
DERIVATIVES
hypercritically |-ik(ə)lē| adverb

Important point. You can't blame Mike for the song not happening. At the same time, though, with Brian's increasingly fragile psyche and hypersensitive state, he probably took Mike's comments too deeply to heart.

I hear this all the time too but to me it just seems like a complete fabrication by someone. All I see is Brian firmly and utterly but adorably rolling over whoever and whatever was in his way or not what he had in mind.

Wwwwhhhhaaaaa?????

Otherwise, I completely agree with you and myself.

Really? That doesn't seem right but maybe so.

But by this point in time, Brian was getting worn down - by drugs, encroaching mental illness, negative reactions, craziness, whatever - and no longer just rolling over whoever and whatever.

I always thought that Brian scrapped SMiLE because of things that were happening to him/his psyche in the present, for example, his hearing new Beatles songs and thinking that they "got there first".

Mike's disenchantment with Van Dyke's lyrics (and not all of them BTW) occurred very early in the SMiLE saga. A lot of writing, producing, arranging, and recording happened AFTER Mike voiced his displeasure. Did Mike continue to "nag" Brian about the lyrics?

For Brian to eventually scrap SMiLE because of the Mike confrontation, he (Brian) would have to GO BACK several months. I thought Brian moved on; the recordings would suggest that.

What causes the mind to reel are the endless careers that the Lovester would have had to pursue had it not been for his famous cousin. Where does one start? Shoe salesman, in charge of bananas at a supermarket, pest control tech, french fry tech, hat salesman, used car salesman, clown, prison guard, hot dog vendor, street sweeper, security guard in a dry cleaners.  :o

Sure, but why is Mr. Love the only guy in "rock n roll" who provokes such snickering questioneering? (is that even a word?) Exactly what marketable skills do ANY of our rock n roll heroes possess outside of music-making?

I mean, at worst (as far as credits go, which seem all-important to way too many people) he was "merely" a lead/back-up vocalist/frontman for what is inaguably the most important and succesful band America has ever produced! He also provided many great lyrics and co-wrote many a song, some big big hits!

Why do these simple facts continue to be sneeringly brushed off?

Because is turns into religion, and storyline becomes important, as if salvation depended on it. You can't acknowledge the hum-drum reality of a group of startlingly normal people (with their great talents here, their remarkable flaws there, and their mind-numbing boringness in between) without somehow losing your shot at heaven, so instead it's key to lionize somebody. And better still, you earn points with The Guy Upstairs (or at least cool points with some insider on a message board) by making fun of the bad guy in the plotline you like best.

Well, put Luther!

So, I guess we'll have to wait for Mike to be mortally wounded so than Brian can kneel down, remove his Darth Vader mask, while holding back the tears that the audience is free to let flow!

Mike Love was at his "height" in the early formative years. Say from 61 to about 65. As Brian moved on musically, Mike became a sort of an anachronism whos lead singing was equated with surf based music. He did not play an instrument and honestly was a failure at being a "frontman" that the Beach Boys never really needed in the first place. Brian sought out more sophisticated lyrics (thank God) and thankfully started to utilize Carl over Mike. Its quite eveident that as styles changed, Mike did not and therefore became associated with the surf hits. Beyond that, with a couple of exceptions, Mike was mostly a dinosaur destined to be in an oldies band.

You know, I just don't see it. This is a guy who just would say "no, we don't want to do that" ["we" being Brian], "get on the floor and bark like a dog", "sing these lyrics whether you get 'em or not"*, he argued with and domineered his main lyricist, if he was set any deadlines he apparently chose to ignore them, he commanded studios full of musicians, he mocked Capitol execs face to face with his tape recorded voice, he remodeled his house in many whimsical and impractical ways, he hired the dudes to break their contract with Capitol, he refused to not junk SMiLE to the point of breaking up the band [whatever that meant], he moved them out of professional studios in to a jerry-rigged home studio because he wouldn't be told when he would record or how he would record, and then he produced Smiley. Brian was an unstoppable steam roller. I think we just don't want to believe that he was at the top of his form, in full command of his domain, his faculties, and the material and still didn't feel that SMiLE hit the mark.

*OK, I am paraphrasing just a tad

quote
What causes the mind to reel are the endless careers that the Lovester would have had to pursue had it not been for his famous cousin. Where does one start? Shoe salesman, in charge of bananas at a supermarket, pest control tech, french fry tech, hat salesman, used car salesman, clown, prison guard, hot dog vendor, street sweeper, security guard in a dry cleaners.  :o
[/quote]

The stars lined up in 1961 so this is a cheap shot. Sure, Mike could have been doing any one of those jobs...just as Brian, Al, Carl and Dennis could have been. Who knows where they could have gone as indivduals if the group had not taken shape?

Mike Love was at his "height" in the early formative years. Say from 61 to about 65. As Brian moved on musically, Mike became a sort of an anachronism whos lead singing was equated with surf based music. He did not play an instrument and honestly was a failure at being a "frontman" that the Beach Boys never really needed in the first place. Brian sought out more sophisticated lyrics (thank God) and thankfully started to utilize Carl over Mike. Its quite eveident that as styles changed, Mike did not and therefore became associated with the surf hits. Beyond that, with a couple of exceptions, Mike was mostly a dinosaur destined to be in an oldies band."

Well, feeling this way, you're obviously not a Beach Boys fan!

Hermin's Hermits were pretty good 60's pop! No Mike Love in sight there! I'm sure they have a board too!

It seems to me that the overwhelming evidence is that Brian scrapped smile due to his own insecurities, and that the insecurities of Mike Love were only a minor factor.  In the last three months of 1966 Brian Wilson created the outline of a spectacular record, working furiously on brilliant track after brilliant track.  In the first three months of 1967 Brian recorded heroes and villians over and over and over and over...and his music wasn't getting any less weird or any more mainstream (if anything, it was getting more weird!).  To blame this obsessive tinkering on Mike Love seems almost like wishful thinking to me, as if we just don't want to face that what brought down smile wasn't external, it was internal.  And that because of that, perhaps Smile was doomed to failure from the start.  Perhaps the same thing that made it so incredible and groundbreaking also made it impossible for Brian to finish. 

Agree. And that's why it's very disconcerting to have Brian look into a camera (on the Beautiful Dreamer doc), and say first that SMiLE didn't come out, among other reasons, "because Mike didn't like it...". Captured for history. Lovely.... ::)

How 'bout one, indeed!

I'm imagining a freakin' incredible evening...  :P

Our Prayer
Surfer Girl
Johnny Carson
Let's Go Away for Awhile
Time to Get Alone
Mona
With Me Tonight
Little Children
This Whole World
Til I Die
The Night Was So Young
One For the Boys
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
Still I Dream of It
You're Welcome

Good Vibrations was a moderate success wasn't it?

I'm sorry but to say that Mike was a failure as a frontman and that the band didn't even need one is hilarious. You may dislike his style, but Mike has obviously proven himself to be a success in that role. The other guys, aside from Dennis who was largely kept behind the drums, had all the stage presence of a yoghurt. Now you may watch Mike when he's on stage and want to slap him or you may watch him and want to vomit, but you watch him all the same. Mike clearly has the same confidence/arrogance on stage as all other sucessful frontmen like Jagger, Bono, Morrissey, Robbie Williams etc. and has always been an important part of the band's success.

Very good point, hence the whole "Mike as scapegoat" theory.

Difficult one, this. I think that behind the 'assertive' Brian you paint here, there was/is an enormously shy man who increasingly suffered from some sort of obsessive-compulsive disorder. I see that in his tendency to 'perfect' songs, tinkering endlessly with a gazillion versions differing only in minute detail, and in his indecision as to when something was 'ready'; up to the point that he never readied anything anymore. Perhaps OCD was already clear when he wanted Be My Baby in a tape loop, to hear it for hours on end. That is not normal, not even for a 'mad genius composer'.
People with OCD as illness have another deficit that I recognize in Brian: a growing difficulty with 'weighing' feelings and events properly, to see them in context and apply a bit of relativism to them. That is what struck me in his 'autobiography': a striking example is that he was so offended by a remark of Mike, who sad to Brian: 'those shoes are hideous!', when a more or less 'healed' Brian presented himself to Mike. Any normal person would have forgotten, or laughed away, such criticism; but someone with OCD can magnify such a criticism into monstrous proportions, and endlessly suffer from it as a result.

And that is why I think that Mike's objections to the new material for Smile perhaps had a much, much more heavy impact on Brian than we think. With someone with OCD, feelings of intense guilt and shame can be enough to scrap a whole project merely on such grounds.

Finally: Brian may well have had feelings of guilt towards Mike because he had left him out as lyricist on what looked like the greatest two LPs in the band's history; feelings that he never really disclosed. So for this reason alone he may have taken Mike's comments extemely serious, with the well-known end result.

Don,

That just doesn't sit right for me either, I just can not be agreeable lately.

I don't see obsessive behavior in this period. What could be called mild obsession for some is merely constructive reconsideration for artists, and shelving or destroying beautiful product that did not hit the musal mark isn't uncommon I would say or the result of mental illness. H&V was actually recording for two masters for the same single, I didn't add it up but it seems to me Brian spent much more time on the single side of GV and no one seems to see that as obsessive and I don't see any evidence of obsessive recording for the album tracks.

If criticism could bring down SMiLE than it seems to me Mike's question-about/criticism-of a lyric would be way down the list of culprits and the criticism of the music by his collaborator would be at the top of the list. For some reason no one ever mentions this suspect; I don't because I only see Brian doing as he pleased whether others were pleased or not. When he was no longer pleased by SMiLE he did as he pleased and shelved it.

Brian was like the velvet steam roller in this period of music creation. To do what he pleased, he rolled over anyone and anything with his mild voice, confidence, charm, magnetism, enthusiasm, and humor, but he still steam rolled you. This is how he got all of these diverse people to do his bidding whether they wanted to or not or were humiliated or confused and also how he could then just unilaterally dump all of the  product they all had put themselves out for and still most of these flattened people more or less just shrug and think "Oh that's just Brian, that adorable scamp".

cause he's a massive jerk who's behavior never showed much love for music except in how it'd get him money.  and his stage behavior/attire is a joke.  

but i give him credit for everything he's done.  and i don't think it's entirely his fault, i feel like Carl tried too hard.  there wasn't a fashion fad that he didn't miss out on. 

This is exactly the point that I was trying to make. And as someone who has OCD tendencies and knows a few people who have it really strongly, I can tell you that the inclination toward being hypersensitive and taking others' comments too deeply to heart are quite real and can lead you to give up on things too easily. As I said before, I don't blame Mike for bringing SMiLE down, but I do think that his negative attitude toward much of it had a more serious impact on Brian than a lot of people think.

Care to elaborate what you mean specifically by Carl trying too hard? Sounds intriguing to me.

Ok, Eric-I'm not a Beach Boys fan-when did YOU become a fan-now approach this very carefully-once again, v e r y  c a r e f u l l y-(hint: OLDsurferdude) :tm

obviously, for you to enjoy live music, you must have a "front man" to validate the music for some strange reason. The Beatles, for instance, got along quite well without one as did many other groups-Growing up with the BBs was good but as time went on, we all thought he was rather embarrassing and very full of himself. His cornball humor, his attire and general clown-like appearance was a turnoff . The public and the group kinda had to put up with him.

Oh my.  :-D

Hi boys and girls!  Remember me?? I'm THE THREAD

Didn't that go on for some 50 pages a few years back?  Over just this subject?

One might still be a "velvet steamroller" and be seriously unbalanced enough to take any lack of enthusiasm as an unforgivable insult.  Or have an unpredictable violent reaction.*  The point being: it's not Mike's fault per se, though he seems to gleefully recall his dismssal of the hippy-dippy acid alliteration etc. at the time.  He wouldn't know that any negativity on his part, however temporary, would get so blown up.   And yet in Brian's head it did - which strictly speaking would be his doing, yes, but it's the advancing disability talking, not a willful genius leading everyone and Capitol off a cliff for $hits and giggles.  Nor can Mike be blamed for wondering just what the hell was going on during these difficult months in light of the bizzaro behavior, and sounding off about it.

Meaning: both Cam and Don are right.  We're back to the zen koan again.

*Brian's hysterical reaction to the movie "Seconds"; his banning a male friend from the studio because his girlfriend was a "witch" (as in really really hot, might get a woody or something) (See Peter's book)

I think Beach Boys fans inability to accept Mike Love for who he was is a big part of our own insecurities about obsessing (and oh do we obsess) over a band that most people remember for surfin USA and kokomo.  

The way I see it, yea Mike Love could be a jerk, but so could a lot of people (Brian included).  Yea Mike Love wrote some dumb lyrics (so did a lot of people, Brian included) but he also gave us everything from Good Vibrations to Only for You and Pacific Ocean Blues (not to mention I get Around, etc.).  And he was crazy.  He cared so much about what people thought, and yet was pretty incapable of fitting into other's perceptions of cool.  Unlike most late sixties orientalists, he actually loved transcendental meditation (and everytime i see a picture of him on stage in his robe, I smile on the inside).  And his cornball sense of humor really fit in pretty well with Brian's in a wierd way (witness the early sixties in the studio tracks, which I love!)  IN fact, I think one of the problems the beach boys had is that Mike and Brian had this sort of mock rivalry going on, which was all sort of a joke, and then suddenly Brian Wilson turned out to be mentally ill, and suddenly the joke wasn't funny anymore for him, and that sort of threw mike for a loop.  Finally, Mike was right about how bad drugs were for Brian.  He may have been wrong about the lyrics to hang on to your ego, but he was right that an addiction to uppers and a bunch of hangers ons was not a good way to live a life, let alone make a record.  

Oh yea, and when Mike blasts into those bass vocals parts (my understanding is that he came up with many of them himself, not withstanding various writing credits deserved or not deserved), he is cool!!!!  

Long story short, I love all the Beach Boys.  I love Brian even though hes crazy (and possibly manipulative), Al even though he'd rather chill at his ranch and write feet songs then anything else, Bruce even though he's not a *real* Beach Boy (just kidding, sort of), David even though he vanished (it wasn't his fault, and the rythym guitar playing on the Surfer Girl LP kicks ass), Carl (nothing not to like about him!) Dennis even though he was a womanizer who probably took advantage of thousands of girls in his younger days (and then turned into a grizzled old bum who just happened to be a genius but couldn't keep it together enough to release a second album he's basically finished), and yes, MIKE!!!  Even though he's a cornball, a bizarrely old fashioned (but none the less charismatic) frontman, who led the beach boys through years of karoake WITH CHEERLEADERS FOR GODS SAKE, well, that's exactly why I love him!!  

They all have flaws and have all messed up from time to in their lives, as have we all. The problem with being famous is your mistakes are lived out in the public eye.  If I could critise Mike for one thing back then it would be his image.  "Wild Honey" era there he was sporting an old man's flat cap (to cover his bald bits), a fluffy ginger beard  and a shirt collar/knitted jumper combo.  That's not how to look cool in a rock band!! That may sound a tad harsh but like it or not how the group looks plays a big part in selling records.

Back to "The Thread".  I wonder how much Capitol Records actually cares anymore about the BB.  I went to their website today and, while they still list Brian Wilson as one of their artists, I could not find the BB.

Ok, I don't want to fight about this, and I don't want to be accused of elder-abuse!

Let's just say I love the Lovester and I love the Beach Boys! I love the Beach Boys and the lovester is a huge part of the Beach Boys. I don't see any conflict in the story at all! It bugs me in the same way that a lot of "Beatle fans" relentlessy bashing Paul bugs me! I love everything The Beach Boys ever did!!! Only song I can honestly say I despise is Problem Child. Everything else ranges from acceptable to ok, to good, to great, to mindblowing! I'm sure to some, this mindset immediatly disqualifies my opinion, but hey, I can live with it!

When did I become a fan? Well, I was born and raised in Hawthorne where the Beach Boys were worshipped like they were Jesus, by every cool local kid I knew. I knew this big huge black guy named "Moose" who used to walk around in a Kangol jumpsuit with a huge ghetto blaster. He'd be blasting Run DMC and then he'd go from that to blasting Good Vibrations and signing at the top of his lungs!!! I miss that guy! He was a summer camp counsoler and he'd talk about The Beach Boys all the time, and he had a collection of ticket stubs and Beach Boys concert programs. So, I guess I've been a fan since I can remember.

Sure, it could be both. I'm saying the evidence tells me that Brian was not unbalanced by lack of enthusiasm or even insult [from the Boys, or VDP, or Capitol, or some guy off the street], the bit about enthusiasm, insult, and mental illness is sort of speculation it seems to me. To my mind, neither was he confused, aimless, or obsessive but confident, prepared and selective. Those things may have eventually affected Brian that way but not during the SMiLE period or really until '70ish or even later maybe.

 :-D

You're comparing the members of The Beatles with The Beach Boys??? Do you seriously think that Carl and Al were as popular performers on stage as John and Paul? Jeez. I don't think it can really be argued that the live set-up of The BBs worked as it proved popular for so many years.

I presume that you don't mean everything you say anyway as surely nobody could be that cretinous unintentionally... :P

Cretinous and I mean everything down to the last dot on the i. Call me what you want-I could care really care less. Yes the Beatles did have Paul and John but they didn't have Dennis Wilson and that is all the they needed to have "stage presense"-not some rooster struttung around on stage, who thought he was God's gift to women. :p

Dennis absolutely was an important part of the appeal of the live shows. But, as mentioned before, he was stuck behind the drums most of the time. John and Paul had Ringo and George anyway.

It can't be argued though that having a frontman was right for The BBs. Almost 50 years as a successful live act says it all.

Well, you can't honestly say THE BEACH BOYS DIDN'T NEED MIKE LOVE OR A FRONTMAN, simply because Mike was always there! We have no way of speculating what The Beach Boys live career would have been without him. We certainly know they were able to succesfully get through countless shows without Dennis and several without Carl, tons and tons without Brian, and tons without Bruce! The Beach Boys really didn't need anyone or anything but the songs themselves! BUT they chose to tour relentlessly with Mike as a frontman and were mightily successful at it! Mike was just one aspect of a functioning machine: warts n all.

I think it's safe to say that if Michael ever wore out his welcome in the Beach Boys, the other voting members of BRI would have fired him. But let's remember that Brian and Dennis were the only ones on record to ever have been fired from the Beach Boys. God love them both, but...

If Brian was really that hurt by Michael with regards to Smile, and Carl couldn't put up with Michael's antics onstage, both of them were quite upstanding and certainly would have had the balls to get the other voting entities of BRI to force Michael out of the group. Fact is, it never happened.

This isn't a pro-Michael post. If the other members really wanted him out, they would have thrown him out. It never happened. Blood does run thicker than water. The reason Dennis was banned for the better part of 1979 to 1983 was due to his inability to control himself on and off of the stage and as a reason to force him into getting help. And Brian was fired in order to cut him off from everything as a last-ditch attempt to force him to get help. They were a family. Family sticks together.

To really assess the importance or value of Mike Love, you almost have to do something difficult - forget about what you know about the group and just be a typical fan at a Beach Boys' concert. I've seen The Beach Boys about twenty times since 1978, and one thing always stands out - Mike Love is the star of the show. From the time Mike comes out singing, "Well East coast girls are hip..." to the ending "and we'll have fun, fun, fun...", Mike is the highlight of the show for most in attendance.

Yeah, that's MY opinion, and, no, I'm not trying to slight the other guys. I've watched the crowds; I've seen their smiles, heard their laughs. Mike is the one who talks to the people, the others barely utter a syllable. People on this (and other boards) criticize Mike's jokes, but I see the majority of the audience laughing at them. People also criticize Mike's wardrobe, but I think (other than the bed sheets and the suspenders) Mike always looked like a Beach Boy. I thought Mike looked the best in the striped shirts; I liked the gold vest era, and he popularized the Hawaiian shirt look. I also found his hats to be fine; I confess to going out and buying some like Mike's after seeing a BB show. And I say this in a totally heterosexual way - Mike looked the best in shorts. :o

People on boards criticize the cheerleaders, but EVERYTIME they came out, they were greeted by loud applause. Interesting. Give the people what they want? Did you ever listen to people as they were leaving the concert, walking to their cars? Who are they talking about? Who will they remember? What will they remember? I'll bet Mike Love is a part of it. Most fans at Beach Boys concerts didn't really know the stories behind the group; I get the feeling they came to see THE BEACH BOYS, not specifically Carl or Al or Dennis. And, again, I'm talking about the casual fan (which were most) at a Beach Boys' show. How many of those fans at BB concerts in the late 70's owned Pacific Ocean Blue? How many knew if it was Brian Wilson or Carl Wilson they were watching on guitar? How many knew Al Jardine's name?

Whether it was the jokes, the prancing around on stage, the corny sax solo, the car medley, the surf medley, the intros to the songs, or just hearing the nasal tone live - Mike was and is the most important Beach Boy on stage. It's no secret he is able to STILL tour successfully - with no Wilsons in attendance. And, again, I'm not slighting Brian, Dennis, or Carl. Or Al. But, simply, they couldn't do what Mike did, and, yes, I think what Mike did/does is important.

eh.  that band out there is the beach boys only cause Mike sued for the name.  you give me a choice and i'll choose to see Brian 100% of the time. 

Care to elaborate what you mean specifically by Carl trying too hard? Sounds intriguing to me.
[/quote]

well first off, i love carl.  But i look at his fashion choice through the years after around 1967 and they're so bad.  it was like every cliche of rock n roll fashion he was into.  i mirror with dennis who eventually stayed away from the cliches and looks much better for it.  and i don't know where his creative edge went.  I remember an interview where he's asked the name of the new album and he says "still cruisin" and i swear i could see "eeeeyeaah..." on his face. 

Huh? I think you are replying to something that wasn't written there.

Mike hasn't sued for The BBs name as far as I know. Brian (or his management) have always been happy for him to use it. Mike just didn't want Al to use it and not to pay for it.

SJS was also talking about what the average concert-goer (rather than hardcore fan) thinks.

absolutey correct-a legal decision does not necessarilymake it correct or true. No Wilsons no Jardine equals no Beach Boys. With the deaths of Dennis and Carl the real Group was long gone.

well first off, i love carl.  But i look at his fashion choice through the years after around 1967 and they're so bad.  it was like every cliche of rock n roll fashion he was into.  i mirror with dennis who eventually stayed away from the cliches and looks much better for it.  and i don't know where his creative edge went.  I remember an interview where he's asked the name of the new album and he says "still cruisin" and i swear i could see "eeeeyeaah..." on his face.   


Well, consider yourself lucky that nowadays you have a choice and can go see either Brian or Mike's Beach Boys! Or, you can live in a universe where the pluses of BOTH options are allowed to present themselves! Imagine that?

As for Carl: would you mind providing some photographic evidence of his jumping onto every rock fashion cliche bandwagon? Keep in mind, when we're talking about 1967-1998 that's almost 30 years. Fashion trends DO tend to happen and unhappen. You can't blame a rock star for fluctuating a bit fashion-wise. Who cares anyway? If you're looking at The beach Boys as a fashion critic, you're bound to be left scratching your head.
[/quote]

Jesus!!!! I hardly think Mike is out there presenting himself as "THE REAL BEACH BOYS! THE SAME BEACH BOYS AS 1965 AND IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE THAT DENNIS AND CARL ARE DEAD AND BRIAN ISN'T HERE"

Mike and Bruce's Beach Boys is just a version of The Beach Boys for live purposes so that they can keep touring/playing/making money/and doing what they do best! It's not supposed to be the end all be all...... And it's only a matter of time before Mike and Bruce (and Brian) will either be dead or infirm and there won't be ANY Beach Boys varient/or Brian out there at all.... Then we can all be happy, I guess!

no i understand.  I don't have problem with them touring using the name obv.  They need to make money so they use the name.  mike was never the songwriter so can't expect new beach boys albums (thankfully). 

but what some believe is that even if they're using the name, it's not the beach boys.  actually i saw a commercial for them cause they were coming to my area and all the photos were of the early mid 60's band. the classic beach boys i guess.  i found that funny since only mike would be there.

Absolutely wrong. Why is Al Jardine a beach boy and Mike Love not? if you're going on the no-wilsons-no-band stance, Love has more claim to be a Beach Boy than Al, seeing as he's related.

And Mike and Bruce's band is harmless anyway. If they were releasing new material under the name, that would be different. But they're just touring and giving the fans what they like, from orchestral shows to county fairs. Who cares?

"no i understand.  I don't have problem with them touring using the name obv.  They need to make money so they use the name.  mike was never the songwriter so can't expect new beach boys albums (thankfully)."



What are you talking about? Mike co-wrote many many many Beach Boys songs! Many that are beloved. Some are big big huge hits! Correct: he is not THE songwriter, but he is certainly an important creative force in The Beach Boys. The Beach Boys in fact have no THE songwriter. Brian and Mike (as well as Gary Usher/Roger Christian/Tony Asher/Van Dyke Parks) dominated the sixties, while Carl, Dennis, Al, Bruce AND Mike dominated the 70's ..... along with Brian!

None of this is secret or takes an insane amount of research to dig up!

Ok, I'm done. I'll leave this battle to someone else  :P

I highly, highly agree with the Good Sheriff.

From our earliest memories of the Beach Boys, more often than not we remember Michael's voice. Sure, Brian, Dennis, Carl, Al, Bruce, and Blondie featured vocally on many of their popular songs and I certainly do not deny them their deserved credit, but most times on the radio, if a Beach Boys song was played, it was usually a song with Michael on lead vocal. For me personally, as a young fan growing up with the hits on oldies radio back in the late 1980s, Michael was my favorite singer in the group. He had a certain cockiness about him that made those records he sang lead on very cool. It made the Beach Boys, as a hitmaking band, more than a mere pop vocal group. They were more rock 'n roll. In short, Michael had the arrogance required to be a great rock 'n roll frontman. Dennis had it as well, but his role as the main drummer unfortunately limited the exposure he would receive as a presence at the front of the stage.

As far as Brian, Carl, Al, and Bruce, having had the chance to front their own bands in a live setting, the results are very hit or miss.

With Brian, it would vary wildly depending on his mood that night. Certainly, in recent memory, while he's never really been hugely charismatic like Michael or Dennis, Brian was a more vocal presence beyond just introducing the next song, and he has been raucously funny and profane, even poking fun at himself, which is a LOT of fun to watch. I enjoy the fact that he does seem a lot more at ease in recent history - even during the Smile shows, where he supposedly "exorcised his demons", he wasn't as animated or spontaneous. His recent concerts, though...man. Amazing stuff. He's on fire. The recent shows have been a nice reminder of the spontaneity that Brian was known for, although at nearly 68, obviously he'll never recapture that same kind of mystique that he had at 23, 28, or even 34. But still...there's something there, and he's really been amazing lately in concert. And more power to him for it.

Carl...God love him to death. For all of his sheer, raw talent as guitarist, singer, and occasional writer, his solo career being little more than a hiccup on the radar is truly sad. His first LP consists of good songs but is ruined by the totally braindead production values, and Youngblood suffers from being too overproduced with some really embarrassing filler. As a live act, the poor man sounded nervous as hell fronting his own band. Perhaps that was to be expected, as he was so used to merely playing guitar or keyboards and singing the occasional lead with the Beach Boys, being on his own he was definitely out of his element. Ideally, he most likely preferred to be mainly anonymous onstage with the Beach Boys, deferring the attention to Michael, Dennis, and Brian when he was around. I seem to imply that Carl's modesty and humbleness are both some kind of a character flaw, but I don't mean that at all.

Al also sounds very nervous when he's fronting his band live. Occasionally he can be a lot of fun, but mostly when he's joking around with his sons. Like Carl, he preferred to be in the background. Nothing wrong with that. He wanted the innocence.

And there's Bruce. Well, if you're one of the two or three of us who have actually heard the Surfer's Pajama Party album...'nuff said. The man doesn't have a rock 'n roll bone in his body. If he went to a public school he would have been the victim of atomic wedgies from the real rock 'n rollers on a daily basis.

Honestly...my all-time favorite "frontman" moment wasn't from Michael, but from Dennis. I have a recording of the last 40 minutes of a gig in Cincinnati in April of 1979, and Dennis, as usual, came out for his You Are So Beautiful spot. By this point in any show, Dennis most likely was a sweaty mess and had a towel around his neck while he sang You Are So Beautiful. After he finished singing it this night, he said this -

"Thank you very much. What songs do you want to hear? Whaddaya wanna hear? (Riotous applause) Come on! (Even more riotous applause) LOUDER! (Even even more riotous applause) You're crazy!"

That gives me goosebumps every time I hear it. Dennis knew how to get the fans going in a way that Michael didn't.

ugh...buddy, this is so  obvious you should know i meant more than just lyrics.  and don't start listing songs (without brian) where he wrote the main melody cause they're probably not very good.  and definitely don't mention the solo albums.

i give him full credit for his lyrics though.  he def had a hand in some of my favs.

Agreed with Richard on all points with a tad bit of disagreement in regards to Carl!

I think Carl actually matured (quite young, btw) into something of a commanding stage prescence. Sure, Mike was the dominant personality, Dennis was Dennis (nuff said) Al and Bruce were somewhere there on-stage, but Carl...... Carl had that great great speaking voice. A bit whispery, with this lovely so.cal lilt to it. Almost feminine, but very sensual and appealing. Don't even get me started on his singing voice (my fave singer ever) but he also had this way of singing into the microphone with hooded eyes peering out like he's imparting some timeless secret! He was definatly someone to swoon over in a sensetive guy mode that was much different than Dennis. He was also very gracious to audiences and was the musical focal point concert-wise.

Thing about the Beach Boys is, there was simply almost too much talent there to be understood and taken in! it's almost sad.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere! Very well put and I respect where you're coming from!

Sumahama and Big Sur are two of my BB faves, but, ok, ok, I won't venture down that path!

Btw, we really don't know who wrote the main melody to what. That's where it gets tricky. Someone starts pounding out chords and another guy comes up with lyrics and starts singing them and of course, he has to sing them in some sort of melody, and when he does this, it's likely he's coming up with the main melody! Or, someone starts pounding out chords and mumbling nonsense to a vocal melody and another guy turns that vocal melody into words! It happens in all sorts of tricky little ways. So, we honestly don't know who did what each song-wise.

""And there's Bruce. Well, if you're one of the two or three of us who have actually heard the Surfer's Pajama Party album...'nuff said. The man doesn't have a rock 'n roll bone in his body. If he went to a public school he would have been the victim of atomic wedgies from the real rock 'n rollers on a daily basis.""

It is duly noted that the Bruce solo LP wa entitled "Going Public".

Having said that I like/d Bruce's role in the band.  I like EH, Nearest Faraway Place, and Disney Girls.  Sweet stuff.

Bruce-squeeky clean buttercream-all sugar no salt-    b o r i n g :psyche

Bruce is a talented performer, even if his kind of music doesn't sit too well with us rock 'n rollers on here. He's always been a great keyboard player, and his sweet tenor is nice to hear, even though it's quite frightening nowadays. In the early 1970s with the Beach Boys he was very good at getting the crowd involved along with Michael and Dennis, if only because he was the one besides those two who actually talked to the crowd.

I do enjoy Bruce's songs a lot. Disney Girls and I Write The Songs are classic in my eyes. Tears In The Morning and Deirdre, while overly "sweet" are certainly a good example of the maturity evident on Sunflower. The Nearest Faraway Place is a great instrumental, although the Van McCoy string arrangement does more harm than good in my opinion; I much prefer the master without the string arrangement that goes around. She Believes In Love Again is so openly 80s that I can't help but love it, but it's a nudge nudge wink wink kind of love. Slow Summer Dancin' is pleasant enough, but it's really half a song. Endless Harmony works, if only for the complete irony it offers after years of hindsight, and it's one of two inoffensive tracks on Keepin' The Summer Alive, which I consider their all-time worst LP (other is Goin' On).

Brand New Old Friends is an unacknowledged classic, in my opinion. He wrote that one for Curt Boettcher's aborted California Music project in 1977, and it's a true hidden gem. It was later ruined by Terry Melcher as Happy Endings.

But...  I think the point The Don made in his great post is that you can't tell from the outside evidence what's going on on the inside.

If you saw my wife, you'd never know she has all sorts of social phobia.  See her on a discussion panel at a convention or something, and she looks like a star -- outgoing, funny, confident, bold, take-no-prisoners.  But then get her away from that setting... and she's shaking.  And it lingers...  Bits of confrontation from these things stay with her -- we're about to go off to another convention next weekend, and she's dreading seeing some people she disagreed with vehemently about a year and a half ago.  Bitchy things people have said about her on the internet have eaten away at her for years.  She may have sailed through the confrontation fine at the time, but in the long term it takes a huge toll.

I'm not keen on long-distance diagnosis, but I think I see a similar pattern in Brian.  The dichotomy inside the self-confident king in the studio who's already had a nervous breakdown about going on tour, and whose confidence in his own rightness even there gradually erodes.  My wife tells me that that kind of behavior -- learning how to keep up a confident or even pushy I-know-what-I'm-doing front while going to pieces inside -- is extremely common among people who were bullied extensively as kids; they may have learned how to stand up for themselves, but inside the blows have still landed.  I'm not sure how growing up in the Wilson family compares to that, but that blend of outgoing confidence and underlying insecurity sounds common to both Brian and Dennis.

So basically, I don't have a problem with the idea that the eroding support from the band could well have been what broke Brian, even if he didn't immediately scrap Smile the moment Mike argued about the lyrics or whatever.  That could easily have been the turning point he remembers even if it didn't sink in for a while after it happened; he could easily win the battle and lose the war.  Basically?  People are complicated, they change gradually, and going by "the evidence" is tricky when you don't and can't have anywhere near all the evidence...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

These nuanced posts are ruining the storyline. Just stick with Mike = greedy bastard, Brian = troubled (innocent) genius. If you must expand, you are allowed to say Carl is angelic, Bruce is lame, Dennis is sexy, Al is a short would-be dentist, and David was a temporary replacement. Please go no further. Thank you for your cooperation.

MACHO RRRRR

Jonathan Blum made some good points. It is possible that Mike's/the group's disenchantment with the SMiLE material could've had an adverse effect in the end - even though the real conflict might've begun several months and several sessions prior. But, I can't get past Smiley Smile.

Smile Smile is always there. It won't go away. If Brian truly scrapped SMiLE because of Mike's/the group's/his own/anyone's doubt about the material, he would've avoided Smiley Smile like the plague, and gone directly into Wild Honey. Smiley Smile is a weird album, there is NO question about it. And, whether the credit says "produced by Brian Wilson" or "produced by The Beach Boys", that doesn't erase the fact that the material is "out there".

Again, if Brian was truly concerned about the group's concerns for the appropriateness of the material, he could've instantaneously brought smiles (no pun intended) to everyone's faces by going into "Darlin'". That would've solved THAT problem immediately. He (and the group) could've knocked out Wild Honey in a couple of weeks and the debate about the weirdness of the SMiLE material is put to bed, and life as usual goes on. But he didn't....

I think I agree with you that it wasn't Mike's fault, but to play devil's advocate for a moment...

I don't think anyone's arguing that Brian abandoned Smile to "give in" to mike.  I think the point is that the band's criticisms made him doubt the project, which led to the long, slow, unravelling, culminating in "foda it lets just get high and cut some sht and put it out and move on with our lives."

Also, in a way, Smiley Smile could be seen as giving in to the bands wishes in a very clever, somewhat manipulative way.  By making his new music purposefully underwhelming, he could move into Wild Honey without looking like he was giving up; make it look like "well, that didn't work out, guess we'll just have to go back to the formula" which is a much craftier way of making that shift than going straight from cabinessence to darlin. 

I think Mike is/was a great frontman the odd dodgy nasal vocal aside. The role of a frontman is not just to sing but to connect with the audience and make them feel they are part of the whole show. Mike does that very well, in fact off the top of my head the only guy who could interact with the crowd better would be Freddie Mercury. Mike's bad Mick Jagger 'chicken dance', the lame jokes, the sleazing after cheerleaders young enough to be your granddaughter - Mike's knows it's corny as hell but he's doing it to get a fun reaction. He's not trying to change the world with his live shows, just give the people a good time.

Not pretending to have a window into the head of BW 66/67, but I get the impression that BW was on a roll with the music, working with VDP and the Crew. No-one saying "erm...", no-one saying "hang on, what's this...".  He had free reign and total focus.

If anything, the sudden return of the band from tour and the sudden questioning would interrupt the free-flow of work. I know what it's like when I get interrupted from a project I've been working on solidly for ages-  it takes ages to get back on track, back into the flow, and the mind-set.  Once I ditched a book I was writing cos the lady I was with was pulling me one way, the book the other, and in the end I couldn't focus on either, so ditched both.

I'm sure BW knew what he was doing musically was right.  But suddenly the band was back and there were speed bumps in front of his steaming train. He slowed down and lost the focus. Maybe dropping the new direction and making time for the band was easier than trying to handle both distractions at once. Stress, in other words, not a doubting of ability.

Hiya Jon -

first: thank you for your compliment, and also for your own great, and candid, message here. I know a few things about OCD, and that is why I wrote my own take on things. Someone in the above wrote about Brian's odd reaction to the movie 'Seconds', and I find that a good example of what I meant to say. But also my own comment about 'Be My Baby' in a tape loop was intended to make a point. People with OCD have difficulties in 'ending' something, and that something can be everything, really... it's called 'lack of inhibition', in thought processes and in acting. That is why they often ruminate on sad things, they get 'trapped' in cycles of thinking about adverse events, bodily decay, and even death. OCD often is linked to other disorders that feature repetitive behaviour, such as gambling, and addiction. And they have an enormous difficulty in 'letting things go', i.e. forget insults and negative behaviour of othere towards them. Being abused as a kid is one of the experiences that can be instrumental in generating OCD in a person who is genetically predisposed to OCD. One person can have a history of abuse, and yet not develop the disorder because he/she does not have that tiny mutation in one, or a few genes; the other also was abused, but is unlucky in that he/she does have that mutation.

OCD usually occurs at the average age of 11/12 (early-onset) or about 20-27 (late onset). I would not be surprised if Brian is such a late-onset person with OCD tendencies.

Mind: I don't claim to be able to diagnose from such a huge distance in time and place. But to me, the idea makes sense.

Some good points there. But even if the negative reaction from the band did eventually cause Brian to have a rethink, that still wouldn't be the cause of it not being released. The cause would clearly still be within Brian because a 'normal' person wouldn't react in that way. To use another example, Brian has said that the reason his father hit him with a plank of wood was because Brian didn't mow the lawn on time. Now obviously the real reason (if it happened at all) was because Murry had huge emotional problems and was a terrible father.

The very, very simplistic argument put forward by some people (not necessarily on this board) is that Brian was fully in charge of what he was doing but the other BBs broke him down. But if he'd really been in a good situation then the opinions of the other band memebrs wouldn't have been able to affect him in that way. People can look for a million reasons why Brian pulled back but due to his emotional and mental problems, that was always going to happen imo.

I'd bet on Brian losing the plot by himself and then trying to find a way to get out of that mess of a project. The groups's "resistence" was basically little Brian claiming (to Marilyn, Anderle, Parks, the Posse etc) that the dog ate his homework.

I believe I allowed that it could be both, I may be mixing up my threads, so if I didn't I do now. I don't see obsessive or compulsive in Brian's behavior in this period. Brian's work habits don't show it to me. What is called a mental breakdown seems like a panic attack on an airplane to me. His girlfriend-witch, Spector-conspiracy, dogs-pointing toward-the-meteors talk just sounds to me like normal goofy talk through a creative mind or a guy who thinks it's funny to mess with people. Still, it could have been mental illness that turned Brian off of SMiLE.  I just don't see it right now.

It is much more straight forward to me. At the time, Brian was talking and people were talking for Brian and it was just a straight forward matter of Brian having issues with the material itself, not with whether his co-writer was dissing it, or his band was dissing it. It shelved because it no longer pleased Brian's muse when it seemed too elaborate, old fashioned, etc., etc., and he wanted a different mood and direction and he did that different mood and direction the way he wanted. Could mental illness have caused Brian's muse to lose confidence? I suppose so; to me these deeper motives or causes are speculative but the "velvet steamroller" is right in your face and rolled right over to Smiley Smile without any lose of steam.

Velvet Steamroller: "Resistance is futile!"

[See what I did there? Play off THE THREAD's "resistance" angle...huh...huh...]

Could it be that his beloved 'humour' project got too heavy? That it became a very serious burden for Brian, instead of a pleasurable artistic achievement? Expectations were raised sky-high by all hangers-on and influential press people... did Brain rather quickly feel a terrible fear of failure? Did he get so anxious about even a mixed, moderate reception of the grand project?

For me it would explain, at least, the dodging of the realization of Smile itself, and the escape route to Smiley Smile; as some sort of wilful, ironic underachievement. By giving the implicit message: I could've done better, but here is Smile's little brother, Brian obviously made himself immune to criticism. By neutering serious criticism a priori, and paving the way for only 'what do we have here??' reviews.

Smiley Smile /aka 'The Career Killer'. It's been said on this board before but I feel it's worth stating again that if the BB's REALLY hated Smile so much they would hardly be jumping up and down at the prospect of releasing Smiley Smile.
             I take it everyone here has read "Smile the story of Brian Wilson's lost masterpiece"? In it the writer is firmly in the 'BBs esp Mike caused Brian to shelve Smile' camp and strongly implies that this is what caused Brian's mental decline. To me, to say a man suffered over 30 years of severe mental illness because people didn't like some of his music is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. It's cool to be able to go on this site and read/discuss these subjects with rational people.

I agree that we're not arguing that Brian "gave in" to Mike/the group. And I conceded that Brian POSSIBLY carried the early criticism of SMiLE with him for months, and, as you say, "led to the long, slow, unraveling..." An unraveling of SMiLE that is.

But, I don't think Brian was being manipulative. I don't think he purposely made music that was underwhelming. I don't think he was looking for an easier transition to Wild Honey; Brian was too "in the moment". I don't think he planned that far ahead. I think that Smiley Smile was a) his quasi-attempt at a humor album, and b) something that he could get out in a hurry.

However, any way you look at Smiley Smile, HE WAS NOT ADHERING TO THE GROUP'S FEARS that the material was "not what's right for them". You don't transform "Wind Chimes" and "Wonderful" the way Brian did. You don't record "She's Goin' Bald". You don't add the giggling and laughing. Or the "good" on "With Me Tonight". And on and on. Smiley Smile outweirded SMiLE. And Brian had to know it. He was not giving in to anybody.

What I like about Smiley is even when Brian was going at something in a half assed fashion his brilliance still shines through.

Hi Sheriff -

what do you think: did Brian actually think he improved 'Wonderful' and 'Wind Chimes' by transforming them as he did? Why did he think it necessary to do that?

I mean: my little theory about SS being a wilful underachievement does not want to implicate that Brian took every step in a highly conscious way. People with severe anxiety disorders act on impulse, perhaps unconsciously. The 'filling in' of the game plan occurs afterwards, by fans such as we.

Well said.

Thanks Don. Not to step on The Sherrif's toes but if I may say that I think SS version of "Wonderful" is vastly inferior to it's Smile counterpart, whilst SS "Windchimes" is better than the Smile version by a button. The tag is probs the most gorgeous piece of singing I have ever heard.

Not "improved" but revamped. And why did he think it was necessary? Because he had to transform or fit those songs into the "humorous" vibe that is Smiley Smile. Now, I admit that the Smiley Smile "humor album" theory is my personal opinion; it's the only was I can rationalize it. In my above post, I forgot to mention the pouring of the vegetable juice and the "ahh" when drinking it, or the whimsical "dum dum dum" and whistling on "Whistle In". I felt, with Smiley Smile, Brian was doing another concept album. People have asked why Brian didn't include "Cabinessence" or "Surf's Up" or "Child Is Father Of The Man" on Smiley Smile. Can you imagine trying to transform them into "humorous" pieces. Unbelievably, Brian was able to do it with "Fire"! (see "Woody Woodpecker Symphony").

Oh, yeah, Smiley Smile was a conscious plan. Hey, some people consider it a true work of art, genius no less. But, how can you listen to that album or look at the specific songs, and say that Brian was concerned about appeasing the group? If Brian would've taken a vote and polled the group - do Smiley Smile or do Wild Honey? What do you think the vote would've been? You can throw the record company and the fans into that vote, too...

Excellent call. I readily see your argument about Cabinessence, Surf's Up, and CITFOM. And I can guess what the outcome of that vote would have been... :)

Surf's Up has it's moment of humour to my ear -  the second, discordant horns bit that accompanies "to a song dissolved in the dawn..." is in the same vein as George Fell.... Subtle, but it's there.

If you have friends or family - or have worked with - people who have severe OCD or other neurotic-type disorders, you would know that those people take negative comments (or even comments mistakenly perceived as negative) to heart, and that definitely affects their attitude, self-worth, self image, etc.  And the reaction may not happen right away, it may smolder over time.  IMHO the negativity from Mike, et al. toward SMiLE played some part - maybe a small part but a definite part - in Brian's ultimate decision to shelve it.

I agree that Smiley Smile was somewhat of a decision to go to a humor album. But I also see a bit of passive aggressiveness on Brian's part in those weird, inferior remakes of Wind Chimes and Wonderful.  It's kind of like he was saying "I no longer have the resolve to finish SMiLE and a lot of people don't like those songs, anyway, so I'm just gonna make a joke of these tunes."  And we can't forget that this is also the "deeply stoned" album.  But, as mikes beard stated above, Brian's brilliance can't help but shine through even when he's being half-assed or manipulative. "Fall Breaks..." may be a whimsical remake of "Fire," but it's beautiful.  And even something simple like "Gettin' Hungry" is a cool, catchy showcase for Brian and Mike.

I always thought that Smile's Wind Chimes sounds contrived. The flow between the section sucks, compared to Cabinessence. The Smiley Smile version flows better.... That said, one is beautifully baroque, the other is beautifully eerie. Smiley Smile's Wonderful is not THAT different than the Smile's version. Nowadays I'd rather listen to tge one from SS. Smile's Wonderful sounds kinda raw. And the psychedelic interlude is a gas.

I think tis worth noting here that neither of those smile songs were finished...Wonderful ends with a bizarre fade that certainly seems to have been planned to lead into something, and may also have had a bridge of some sort spliced in on the Smile version. 

Wind Chimes was never mixed into a final verse chorus verse chorus fade structure...and Brian was really good at that kind of splicing and mixing...think about how great the sections flow together in good vibes or the cantina heroes which were actually finished. 

Not to say that you shouldn't have your opinion, you can like whatever version of these songs you like.  But in the interest of perpetuating the smile myth....

"contrived", "sucks",,,hmmm, I guess I just cannot fathom exactly what the reason could be for not inviting you into the studio as a consultant just to be sure it all met with your final approval-the nerve of them! :o

Don't forget that SMILEY SMILE was largely the result of Brian recording in his home studio for the first time. Here was a chance to to just experiment and have fun without the pressure (or structure) of working in a proper studio with session players and the accompanying expense. SS just sounds like someone goofing off at home simply because they can. To me, that is the biggest reason SMILEY SMILE doesn't sound remotely like SMiLE.

Yeah in retrospect that second to last sentence on my post does sound too harsh and I hope nobody took offense from it. I was just trying to make the point that the book's author all but came out and called Carl, Mike  and Al evil for what they'd done. Only the luckiest of us can go through life without the occasional kick in the balls and some people are just wired to handle it better than others.

I know what would be a great 50th Anniversary Project - take what's become of this thread and the countless others like it (Smile - why it didn't happening and the Brian/Mike Relationship) and print it out as a book.  It be thousands of pages.  Ugh.  Gosh, I do long for something new :-( that we can all talk about endlessly.  Like a real Smile box set.

Point well taken.

Hello again - this portion of the Smiley Smile Message Board is brought to you by
THE THREAD

Featuring the long-sought official Franklin Gallery issue of the SMILE BOX SET!

The CDs make terrific drink coasters!
 And the vinyl LPs are great as serving trays for quesadillas!!

With raised rims so the food doesn't SLIDE OFF!!!

To me, Smiley Smile was largely the result of having to provide Capitol with any kind of product at all. I'd say the pressure level was pretty high.

Exactly-all Brian had to do was "throw" on GV and HV along with some inferior arrangements of exsisting material from Smile and Captive had "product". It was Brian's insidious way of backing out of the project and screwing the suits. This was Brian's nascent attack aimed at authority.

Didn't Brian not want to include GV on SS but was overruled by the record company?

I have heard that said before, but don't know if it was true. My question is if he didn't include those two songs, what else would he have used? The album is only 27 minutes, and those two songs are the longest songs on the album.

Smiley is certainly a puzzle but Brother Records was the Smiley record label and they were their own suits. They were cowtowing to themselves/f-youing/themselves/screwing themselves, that doesn't seem likely? Another thing [I probably should add this up first but...] it seems to me that Smiley is up at the top of the albums they had released so far in terms of studio time and maybe man hours. Granted it was done in a shorter beginning to end time frame because the sessions are a tighter grouping [because of the home studio presumably] but it seems to me it was no less work.

According to Andrews site:

Pet Sounds
22 instu and vocal sessions Jan.18 - April 13
Released May 15

Smiley Smile
24 instru sessions not counting SMiLE sessions used and I don't think that necessarily includes the vocal sessions either does it Andrew?
June 3 - July 14
Released Sept 18

Wild Honey
15 instru and vocal [?] sessions
Oct. 11 - Nov. 15
Released Dec. 18


Was it rushed to market or did they just begin recording when their legal issues were settled and it didn't take the normal longer lead time at home and then was manufactured and released in normal BB product timeframe and then rinse repeat even faster for Wild Honey?

Yes, Brother was their's but Capitol was the distributor-don't think for a minute that there weren't some strings attached to the deal.

Considering the recent suit against Capitol, Capitol's offer to build a Beach Boys wing on the Tower, and the fact that Capitol had almost never had any effective control over the group, I bet there were a lot of strings attached to Capitol and held by Brothers. I find it extremely hard to believe that Capitol suddenly decided to finally exert deadlines and demands on the group to get out Smiley Smile.

Capitol had invested a huge sum into Smile - sessions, artwork, booklet, advertising - and by late summer 1967, I'm pretty sure they were leaning on Brian to deliver something, anything, that they could release. One of the great unanswered (and possibly unanswerable) questions in BB history is, why Capitol chose to have any part of Smiley Smile. I cannot believe that they were so desperate... but then again, maybe they were.

Maybe Capitol viewed Smiley Smile as simply a place, a "piece of vinyl" if you will, where they could place "Good Vibrations", "Heroes And Villains", and "Gettin' Hungry". That was their way to milk those singles.

And, I guess looking at their contract with The Beach Boys, they knew another album would be coming shortly.

Capitol could have been banking that its one two punch(GV/HV) would carry the LP(-back then, people wanted to play albums so they wouldn't have to put the single on the vic as well). Cap figured the balance was filler that people would give a listen to coming off the heels of PS. That's kinda how I looked at it when it was released.

Can't say I remember GH ever making it to radio-I know it was a single but if I remember it tanked-and quickly.

They probably were afraid of pushing back again the Smiley Smile material for fear of not getting any material at all.

For me, I don't think Smiley Smile is any more complicated or lofty than Brian made it sound in that radio interview; they were trying some stuff out at home, played the songs in a certain style, and liked it. Was it weird for an audience expecting Smile; yes. But Brian was off Smile by then, and his head simply wasn't at that place anymore.

I can honestly say I would be the happiest human being on the face of the planet if they were to release a SMiLE boxset. I hope we'd get a lot of sessions and unreleased material, and not just Here's windchimes in Mono and now here it is in Stereo and now here it is in Mono again etc.

I've always wondered how serious Brian was about putting out SMiLE after SS? Remember, there's a memo that circulated around Capitol that says SMiLE was still going to come out. More than likely he told them he would get it done just to get them off his back?

Sounds not very credible to me. I would agree with you. To 'send out' a couple of the finest Smile songs in downgraded form (to these ears), such as Wind Chimes and Wonderful, along with Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, and then coming up with the real McCoy...

I don't believe it, honestly. Very unreal(istic).

I honestly think they should have put the rehearsal from Hawaii of GV on Smiley instead of the original single, it fits so well

I love those sessions. I also love Smiley Smile.  ;D

great stuff, though Smile was a genius era, I feel like no other band went through that Smiley/Hawaii era like the Beach Boys did

What both surprises me and doesn't surprise me is how f-ing difficult it is for the band & Capitol to just RELEASE A BOX SET OF THIS STUFF already.

Can you imagine a company with a bajillion people pounding on the door outside begging to buy a product if they would simply just make it?  Capitol and the band have rooms and vaults full of this stuff just sitting there.

Maybe in a way this fittingly sums up the screwed up and crossed image of the Beach Boys for the last 25 (+/- ?) years.

So frustrating.

In regards to anyone doubting if Capital really wanted Smiley Smile? Capital were no doubt STAGGERED by the success of GV. Remember around this time just before it's release most suits in the Tower had pretty much written the BB's off as a fading pop group if releasing "Greatest Hits" or "Best Of" comps meant the same thing back then as they do today. To then have their biggest smash yet... Hmmmm... I imagine Capital would fallen over themselves for SS to be released, even if it had consisted of nothing more than Brian Wilson farting down a microphone for 40 mins.

The blueboard would have had a field day!

If only VDP could add some lyrics...

Lets see... With titles such as "Good Vibrations", "Do You Like Worms", "Let The Wind Blow", "Country Air" and "Wipe Out!" to name a few in their back catalogue I'm sure VDP could weave a botty/farty concept album. :lol

IS there a bajillion people wanting to buy this stuff, though? I mean, what exactly equals a success nowdays-1 million copies sold, 2 million? Half a million? How many copies of a SMiLE box set would sell? I mean I would buy it in a second, but would it really sell enough units to justify putting together a multi-cd set with a nice booklet? Is the desire for SMiLE material really there-at least, is there enough interest to warrant putting something together? I really don't know.

Does anybody recall how many copies of the official box set sold? What about the PS box set? If those didn't sell well, then maybe that's part of why a SMiLE one has never come out.

A well earned grammy awaits.

His inspiration?  Don't go near the water.

I agree that there are not that many people wanting this but is Smile not one of the most hyped, wondered about, talked about and made out to be a mythical legendary project?

Considering how the music industry blows these days, you might think that Capitol would be happy to release a project that at least has some interest.  The PS and original box sets consisted of a lot of material that had already been released - I know lots of smile has come out in different pieces and places but for the most part, the smile LP lives as a "unreleased album."

How hard would it be for Capitol to do this?  Al would probably be happy to help put it together, who knows?

Damn Beach Boys, LOL.

They could use "George Fell Into His French Horn" as the backing track. :o

...and a scratch 'n' sniff cover.

That could be Dennis' final contribution to the band - get the sniff sample from Mike's meditation room.....

 :-D you naughty man, you...

Never has a truer word been spoken!

Sounds like we are on to a winner here boys! Now what to call  it? Can anyone top "Pocket Symphonies"?!!!  ;)

Bum Angel?

Little Deuce Poop?  ;D

(o.k., sorry, I'll stop)

SMeLLY

"Let's Put Our Farts Together"  :police:

Their Farts Were Full Of Stink

And this thread has officially run it's course!

No, it hasn't.  The course is much longer.

Release new material?   Why not?   It seems that fans of the old bands are still buying CD's while fans of newer or more youth oriented music are getting music in other ways.  Beach Boys CDs continue to sell.

If they only stopped releasing a new anthology each 6 months and spicing it up with one or two 'new remixes' (sigh). I predict: a double CD set, well annotated, nice cover pic, and with only fully unreleased material, sequenced in the best way... I predict that such a set would sell very well.

Why?

Because there are so many true devotees out there who have everything, but stop short of getting an expensive 'singles box' with only two things they don't have already (they do have the songs in various forms, mind, but not the 2010 stereo remix, the third one in fact). Because very few people actually have money to burn.

A double set for a reasonable mid-price would sell well. I know that. And whet the appetite for more.

Really well said!  Bravo!  :woot

Vertical SMiLE?

Well said Don! Frankly I don't really care about "stereo mix" releases of old tracks.  The GV 30 Year Box Set is the definitive collectors box set so we don't really need to essentially buy that again with a few track changes here and there thrown in.  A 2CD set full of unreleased stuff (of which there are tons) would get my vote. And yes I can guarantee it would sell. Proof?  Pacific Ocean Blue went top 10 over here in the UK when it was re-issued in '08. Without a doubt 90% of the people who bought that would also buy a 2CD rarities/unrealised set if it contained "Wouldn't it be nice to live again" on it. There's your hook right there Capital!

Cheers! You know, just after I'd posted my take on things, I realized that I should have put in POB as an example of how a well-thought out re-release can do very, very well, even within a market that has a few extra boundaries compared to that for your average teen idol. Thanks for throwing that in.

BTW: is POB rereleased worldwide now at a budget price with only 3 bonus cuts? It is in Holland, at any rate. Is the DeLuxe package deleted?

Well, Brian would need one song on there to give the album context. He and VDP have already written a tune about food, "Vegetables," so maybe he can bring him in for a new track called "Fiber." I'm sure Van Dyke could come up with a lot of clever lines about the colon, the digestive process, and expulsion of gas.  :p

Brian could also rework that B Side he wrote with Lindsay Buckingham as "He couldn't get his poor old bowels to move"!

You'd have to question whether the BBs have enough unreleased material in their vaults that's up to the standard of POB/Bambu. Okay, there's the SMiLE stuff and WIBNTLA (which I regret I haven't heard - not even on a bootleg which I wouldn't have even if I had it) and can only go on the reputation of), and a few other chunks. But the DW set was of a consistently high musical standard, and probably sold because the reviews in the major mags said as much. A BBs set of truly unreleased would have to garner the same level of favourable reviews.

It'd take someone in the know on the board to convince me that a 2CD set could be achieved -  maybe AGD, or Alan Boyd, or Howie, or Jon S, or Mark L, or Peter R, etc etc etc, might like to suggest potential unreleased BBs songs of the necessary quality for this to survive on the mass market?

I don't think that any comp would have to have solely completely unreleased material. The early version of Big Sur, for example, is good enough and different enough to merit release. Stuff like that would be much more desirable than hearing slightly alternate versions of the hits.

Two words (and sorry to be late on this but I just moved across country):

"Poot Sounds".

And now back to the thread.

Agree such stuff would appeal to the likes of us, but to the general public? POB/B sold beyond our obsessive community on quality. I love the early Big Sur, but I don't think it's in quite the same league.
(Can't believe I'm writing this but...!)

what will it take to get new/unreleased stuff? We're willing to do anything....more than anything, everything.

I hear Kalashnikovs go at a cheap rate nowadays. As do tickets to an airport near the Capitol Tower.

do we need to protest outside Capitol?  ;D

Yes we do. We are concerned citizens who want to protect cultural heritage against the barbarians!

i spent half my dad listening to clips from the Pet Sounds Sessions which i don't have.  freaking awesome, will buy it soon.  I'd love Smile box.  Not of everything, clean it up obviously.  Throw in some rare tunes if you want (tons of Dennis songs, or Brian songs).

and also speaking i LOVE getting the "remasters" and stereo remixes. love it love it.

That's a pretty steep price. What'd your mom think?

I laughed, a lot.

 :lol I was just about to post somewhat similar...

Does anyone know how well Endless Harmony and Hawthorne CA sold? These releases were essentially rarities compilations and if the sales weren't spectacular then Capitol may be put off from releasing a similiar product.

If Capitol put Wouldn't it be Nice To Live Again online right now and the download fee for that one song was $15 I would do it in a heart beat. When will they ever get a clue?

Technically, they already HAVE a clue. When it comes out as the token unreleased track to lure the collectors on the next hits CD, you'll definitely pay $15 for it. What do you think they are, stupid? :)

Not to be a record label apologist, but this is pretty much dead on (whether it was meant seriously or not). Don't you think they've calculated/estimated sales? Not to say this or that album doesn't surprise here and there, but I doubt they've somehow completely missed some gigantic base of people who would buy this or that. The people who would pay extra for tunes make a small group. (Many more would just illegally download shared files once it's released; many, many more just don't fucking care.) Labels release what they figure can sell. We, an insular group, think "they could make a fortune!" We don't get stuck with the bill for manufacturing, distributing, and promoting. I'm guessing they know what they're dealing with, more or less.

It's more than "pretty much dead on". It's a FACT. A fact of life, business, commerce, you name it.

I love the Beach Boys as much as anyone here, but let's face it. We obsessives are a true niche market. As hardcore collectors, our numbers aren't those of, say, the Beatles, the Grateful Dead, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, or even the Monkees.

I think the fact that, considering their standing in the pantheon of rock groups that THE GENERAL PUBLIC...I will repeat this...THE GENERAL PUBLIC...one more time, bolded, italicized, underlined, striked-through, glowed, shadowed, marquee'd, and blown up huge so you definitely get the message... thinks are a given as far as being classic, they've had as much archival stuff put out as they have is nothing short of miraculous.

Don't get me wrong. I would certainly rush out and scoop up a disc of unreleased tracks, an unreleased concert recording, or whatever else comes out. But be realistic about it.

WE'RE STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT. We aren't even a blip on the commercial radar.

I'm not trying to say we're not dedicated enough to buy the stuff if it were to come out, but we're a HUGE minority. A dedicated minority, but a minority nonetheless. Keep your fingers crossed for the Beach Boys Central website. That truly might be the only real chance.

Last time I try to be tactful. But yeah. That. (We don't matter.)

The point ,though, is the label needn't bother with packaging, shipping or any of the other costs associated with hard copies of their 'product' when a perfectly reasonable and cheap resource is already at hand (the internet). naturally I would rather everything be released on vinyl or even CD before I'd choose a download, but I'd still take what I can get and the label could dish it out at almost no cost to them which, according to my admittedly limited understanding of economics, is pure profit, and pure profit is what drives these intellectually crippled suits in the tower, right?

I dunno if I completely agree!

One of my favorite bands: Saint Etienne, who've, record sales-wise, sold a mere fraction of what Sunflower even sold in 1970,just had lavish double CDs of their first string of albums come out. They have a few bulding at the seams best-of. They had more EPs, singles, etc, all packed with rare tracks, than you could hope to ever count on two hands and two feet!

My thinking is, it just comes down the the lables really. Saint Etienne is on Heavenly and Sub-Pop where sales aren't everything and if the label likes the band, they'll play ball.

That big fat huge BIG STAR box set just came out. And trust me, they're nerd cult is much smaller than us!

Also, all the early Bee Gees albums, up to and including Odessa, came out in packed double disc special editions (Odessa getting a 3 disc, but non fuzzy, box-set treatment) As amazing as these albums are, just how many "millions" exactly were Rhino expecting to make off these lavish re-issues?

But, this is Rhino we're talking about, where quality is king and rules the land!

Maybe The Beach Boys ought to jump ship again?

grillo, what you're saying is along the lines of what I've promoted for years as the smart way for the band to release their music--at least their new stuff. The audiophiles among us will bitch, but online-based distribution would be a virtually free way to get the product out. Totally agree. But ... the talk here is always high quality vinyl, beautiful artwork, detailed liner notes, new photography...

Didn't Rhino more or less die this past year, though?

Did they???  :'(

Ok, another example is Neil Young's monsterously huge "archives" box!!!! Thing costs like $400 retail and must've cost Warner/Reprise/Neil a fortune! I know Neil is a huge rock star, but how many CDs do you think he's selling these days?

Rhino is still around. On their new web site you can buy albums in vinyl or CD format. Also, a lot of their stuff is available as digital downloads, both in 320kb mp3 and lossless (FLAC, Apple Lossless, WMA lossless) format. The lossless costs a little more, of course. Anyway, they're selling GIOMH (vinyl and digital), Brian Wilson (digital only), Orange Crate Art (digital only), BWPS (vinyl only), and the BWPS DVD.

http://www.rhino.com/artist/brian-wilson (web site is kinda slow, though)

I was just remembering the somewhat dire discussion around their relatively substantial layoffs late 2009, I guess. It was hardly an air of positivity.

I think they actually just shut down their retail stores!

 :'(  the one off 3rd Street in Santa Monica was a fave of mine.

Luther, I love you when you're drunk. Turn around and drop your pants.

I'm not wearing any. (Vacation, Day Two!)

 8) *...imagination running wild...*

Is that an oxymoron?

I agree however unfortunate it may be.

means that we are HUGELY minor  :-X

Rhino is still very much alive, albeit with  a much reduced staff and budget.  They've just released Andrew Sandoval's fifth Monkees deluxe reissue, The Birds, The Bees, and the Monkees, and the never before released Jan Berry 67 masterpiece and answer to Brian's Smile, Carnival of Sound.  Both are necessary purchases!!!!

Agree 100%… Both release are fantastic!

Huge minority, like jumbo shrimp, military intelligence, honest thief, and clever Brianista, is indeed an oxymoron. It was intended to state the magnitude of how much of a minority we are.

*awaits shitstorm*  ;D

"Clever Brianista" was me censoring myself a bit...it was originally "ungrateful whore". :)

Hehe... I for one can laugh about my own obsession. How would any sane person describe Brianistas? As folks who risk their marriage, income, living, jobs, housing, and mental stability just to acquire a three-second snippet from a terrible recording session that was meant to create an album that unfortunately never reached the record shops.

See: normal, stable persons listen to Kenny G., Mariah Carey, and Hootie and the Blowfish. They let their toddlers play with their CDs and LPs. They never get drunk, nor use illicit substances or any type of legal psychotropic medication. They think that all psychologists are intelligent and altruistic people. They love everything that comes out of Hollywood.

We don't.

that was was annoying to get through

So was that.

These days, 'Brianista' doesn't mean what it used to back in the late 70s.

Almost exactly the reverse, in fact.  ;D

Umm, AGD, the term "Brianista" was coined in the early '90s (I was present at its primal utterance) ... However, your point is still valid.  :)

ugh now it hurts

The average, normal person gets drunk. A lot. They often use illicit substances, too.

Really ?  It was used in a letter (remember those ?) to me a good few years before that by someone who would now be regarded as a prime Brianista.  ::)

The utterer and the letter writer are the same perhaps?

Since the utterer is the long-suffering spouse of a BB fan, it's just a coincidence. Not surprised to hear someone else used the term earlier on.

I suspect Brianista came from Sandinistas, the leftist movement that took power in Nicaragua in 1979. In that case, there's the earliest date for you.

In the case of the aforementioned 1990s utterer, "Sandinista" was definitely the influence.

Finest triple album of all time.

Wasn't the "Kokomo-featuring film" Cocktail about baristas?













*crickets chirping*













I got nothing. :/

Joanna Newsom "Have One on Me" is much much much better. But seeing as it was only released yesterday, I'll let you off. Utterly gorgeous and spellbinding. People don't make music like this anymore. Except that now they do.

Oh sh*t I really want that. Is it great? I have no money unfortunately.

Here in Holland, it sells for the price of one and a half new CD. 's Funny, exactly like the Clash set did in its time.

It's also to be downloaded for free in MP3 format, if you can Googlarize a bit... ;)

...if you can Googlarize a bit...

Can you say that in mixed company?

 :lol I thought this up when thinking of a Captain Beefheart title: I'm Gonna Booglarize You Baby

If I know what the Cap'n meant, and I think I do, then perhaps your question is very apt...

You know it sorta hit me today that I picked a very good time to become a hardcore Beach Boys fan (a little just under 3 years ago). In that period of time or shortly just before they have remastered and reissued the twofers series, reissued the 30 Year Anniversary box set, released the Hawthorne CA comp, released the Knebbworth DVD, reissued remastered/expanded solo efforts from Brian, Bruce, Blondie and of course Dennis - even The Flame album has had an (un)official release plus some great books and documentaries...  I've been spoiled for choice really. And still I want more! Thats a real testament to the power of the BBs music that no matter how much we get our hands on there's always that next treasure we're keeping our fingers crossed for.

I recall  the term "Brianistas" back around the time of Kokomo... so that is definitely 80's not 90's
could it have been used earlier?  maybe?.. but I'm not aware

 :o