The Smiley Smile Message Board

a cousin to Mike's thread, this is.

David Leaf as an author did more harm to ML's reputtion than he did good to BW's. I think that Brian's GREAT reputation is due in large part to Don Was. He was the strongest and best-known latter-day advocate for the "Brian Wilson is a genius" cause. And he did a great job. I know Brian had great respect as a musician from early but thanks to Was it reached nearly massive status. Discuss?

I personally blame Anne Wallace and the Smile Research Laboratory for my condition. That would have been back in 1999. But the music speaks for itself. It is always great to discover something that was always there even though you had never noticed it before.

Thanks to this board, I have opened my mind a bit.

It's an interesting question, Brian's well deserved reputation was being proclaimed by Derek Taylor [is that the right name?] in '66. Was not Brian being recognized as a boy wonder before that?

I was watching the I Wasn't Made For these Times doc recently for the first time in a while. I noticed how he seemed a lot more (drunk) or on lots of meds then he is today. He also seemed much more mentally healthy in 1985 then in 1994.

Now more on topic: a lot of people believe that in 80s and 90s either the BBs were pushing Brian away, or Dr Landy kept them apart by feeding Brian bad lies about the BBs and his family. Could it be that Brian himself wanted it that way? What if the BBs always respected Brian and wanted more of him and his music, but Brian didn't want them. What if he was feeding these stories to the media and Dr Landy and not the other way around?

All speculation of course. But today at least, it seems that Mike, Bruce and even Al want a reunion much more then Brian does. Then again, I have heard that the BBs were not very fond of Brian's music in the 90s. Which seems odd to me since the BBs weren't doing much of anything. Wouldn't they rather be a part of a new album composed by Brian then nothing at all?  

Just my opinion...From the first time i viewed it I felt that the IJWMFTT film was overrated. Can you recall the over the top praise this film was getting out of the chute? Masterpiece was a word being thrown around back then. Time has proven it to be a film that is less than revelatory...kind of a movie made by people who don't know much, made for people who don't know much, that doesn't help them to know much more. Fake performances, shallow backstory, its not something I return to over and over because its so classic. It did turn a lot of low information '90's youngsters towards Brian(the Sean Lennon generation?)...which was a good thing. But it gave them a tweaked starting point. As something of worth in sharing the history of Brian and the BB's I think IJWMFTT is relatively useless. The best thing about it is the Still I Dream Of It demo.

One interesting aspect of Brian's story is the myth that after Smile in 1967, he went to bed and never did anything productive again until the 90s. It led to this reputation of modern-day Brian as being a ...vegetable, if you will. When I saw the Don Was documentary, I had heard that myth and thought Brian would barely be able to express himself. I was wrong.

I'm in the Sean Lennon generation, and the IJWMFTT doc was my first real introduction to Brian separate from the BBs. And I have to say that it WAS revelatory to me. Staged it may be, but it really made me intrigued about Brian. When I finished watching I wanted to learn more.

Leaf opened my own eyes to a lot of BBs' history, and made me much more aware of the depth of BW's genius traits. It might have its faults (I dunno, it's now years since I read it and it's in the loft right now) but for me it was the first real eye-opener. Long, long before Don Was came on the scene.

OK, here's my take on that - nonsense. Brian's reputation was firmly established long before Was happened along. Why did Was latch on to Brian ? Because of his reputation. Was knew diddly-squat about Brian's work on Smile until the band he was producing at the time [1989] turned him on to the boots.

The history of Brian's reputation...

Well, I guess, since he was the man who made and later broke the Beach Boys and dumped them like yesterday's trash, his reputation is sound and will remain such for centuries to come.

And like I said i think that is a good thing. But tell me, if you've learned more, much more, then your initial impression of IJWMFTT and your current perception of its actual worth as a Brian tutorial should be far apart.

I come a different school of thought. I became a fan during the time before BWPS was released and what got him into my consciousness was the fact he had finished Smile. The music was my only way really to get to know him. I saw IJWMFTT later and I thought it was rather disturbing. It was definitely better then his days with Landy, but he was still not quite there yet. Would love to hear some others chime in who became fans during that time!

I'm the same way. And I think that Brian and VDP did a pretty good version of 'Orange Crate Art'.  I remember when he talks about SMiLE and does the 'Barnyard Billy' thing-it was debated at length on the SMiLE Shop board whether that was an actual snippet he was singing. Whether or not it really was, it was still intriguing to the newcomer.

I quite like IJWMFTT, it approaches Brian's art in a serious way and a lot of interview material is valuable: Brian is lucid but probably still adjusting to his new meds, Marliyn and Van Dyke both give great interviews. I love the moments with Brian, Carl and Audree at the piano, I love Brian and Van Dyke doing "Orange Crate,' and I love "Do It Again," despite the lip-sync. Good music all around, if Brian's lipsync as usual leaves a lot to be desired.

I must also add that I can see why people don't like it, it's basically told from the Leaf point of view. Somethings I don't care for like the way they gloss over Dennis and Al Jardine, I don't like Carl's interview that much and I don't care for Leaf's segments. That said, Brian has rarely given a better interview and the "Still I Dream of It" sequence almost moves me to tears.

It was one of the first things I saw when I was getting back into fandom, so some sentimental value is there definitely.

Brian's reputation: Musical genius, troubled human being, great singer in the early days and, I think time will tell, a kind man.

By the way, I watched the Orange Crate sequence again, and I'm fascinated by it. First of all, Brian looks great in profile with Van Dyke, younger than I thought he did. Second, listen and look at the way he's singing: he's concentrating, hitting all of the notes, and adding nuances. A bit of vibrato, singing words softer with dynamics, it's all in control. What happened to that singing voice and where the hell did it come from? It wasn't there in the 80s and in my opinion (I'll likely be shot down) he's only starting to get that back in recent years (2006-on). Fascinating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiykTknz51U

One last thing is that I wish Brian, Don Was and Andy would've kept the idea of ending the film with This Song Wants to Sleep with You in color. Would've been jaw-dropping, likely.

I never watch Brian during that segment - I watch Van, because his expressions, and reactions, are just adorable: a mixture of love, pride, apprehension and relief. But mostly love.

I think Brian's reputation was cemented very early, like late 1964. He already had a string of hit singles, including a No. 1 with "I Get Around", and the Beach Boys were arguably the most popular group in the world after the Beatles. On The Beach Boys Today album, it has written on the front cover, "...and three great new songs written by Brian Wilson". That right there tells me that Brian had "a reputation". In late 1964 Brian was known as a great songwriter, producer, singer, and the "creative force behind the Beach Boys". Other than the drugs and mental illness, has that ever changed.

I don't see this thread lasting too long because someone somewhere is bound to take offense to something in this thread. That's just the way it is.

However, I do think that this thread, coming on the heels of the Michael's reputation thread, comes off a bit...reactionary. Everyone knows Brian Wilson's reputation is in good shape. What I don't know, however, is why Brian's ever-so-skeptical fans need to have a playful pat on the ass and reassurance every time someone questions Brian's well-deserved reputation in the form of evaluating Michael Love and his contributions to the Beach Boys. This thread is a prime example of this train of thought.

I do not intend to try and take anything away from Brian and his contributions to the Beach Boys. His reputation was earned fairly, and he deserves it. He made the band, brought them to the top, and effectively destroyed them. There's nothing wrong or perverse about that mentality - it's a fact. The ones who would dare argue that mentality are the ones who need to be evaluated. Brian made his bed and he's sleeping in it. Many of his fans think that bed is not ready to be slept in, but it's been that way since 1967.

I strongly question your notion that he "destroyed them."  I think some of the BBs themselves have said that Brian actually gave them a lot-the music he created with and for them in the 60s has made them all very rich and enabled them to keep touring at nice venues when many lesser 60s bands are playing small clubs and it made many people happy...So I think you are really exaggerating with that "destroyed" idea-everyone did just fine monetarily and lived well.  If you mean that in 68 he stopped helping them on purpose-I also doubt that-he still tried to get them a hit (Breakaway) in 69 and always contributed as much as his health allowed.  He destroyed himself not the BBs.

Brian's reputation has obviously been there for several decades. The Brian's back campaign (and all subsequent Brian's back campaigns) couldn't have worked otherwise...

What is the point of this post if not to stir up the sh*t you so presciently predict? The only controversial post in this thread is your one earlier – apart from your input this has been a civil and interesting discussion. As “Global Moderator” you’re becoming the school yard bully boy throwing a punch and then slithering off hoping something is going to develop from your little bit of input.

For a long time this has been a good message board, sadly like a new editor who comes along and destroys your favourite magazine (think Rolling Stone in the late 70s early 80s) so has the “global moderation” soured the “vibe” that made this board good. There are other boards, we have a choice. I’m outta here.

This used to be the most authoritative of Beach Boys message boards, now its becoming a farce.

Agreed - I don't see how he destroyed the band, intentionally or otherwise.

If anything, you can say the Beach Boys destroyed the Beach Boys by staying together much longer than they ever should have. What each member wanted of the music and the band, what each member wanted of their career, their personalities, etc. caused them to cease functioning as a unit long, long ago, and I think that is what ultimately "destroyed" them. As much as I hate to mention this, as it seems every thread here turns into discussion about this, drugs played a big hand in destroying them as well.

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For what it's worth, I was talking a bit to another member off of the forum and she did give me a different perspective of the situation.

Yes, the post was meant to make Brian accountable for his actions. My choice of wording, however, was indeed poor (and it also didn't help that I was sitting in work when I wrote it and therefore had to be a bit stealthy to avoid The Man coming down on me, so extensive proofreading was kinda out of the picture), and more than a bit unfair.

I know that Brian is not perfect and I do not hold higher expectations of him due to him being BRIAN WILSON, nor do I hold some skewed vision of how Brian "should be". However, everyone is accountable for what they do. Did Brian make the Beach Boys who they are? Yes. Did Brian drive them to their great heights at the zenith of his powers? Of course. Did he effectively destroy them? Consciously, no. But the domino effect of his actions did play a part. And in going down this train of thought, the entire band has to be held accountable. And we can just blame them for being human. They f***ed up. But that's life. We all f*** up.

At the end of the day I'm left with the classic comedy of errors situation. One big, ugly domino effect. And for that, everyone should be held accountable. My last post basically invalidated what I always insisted on when it came to the Beach Boys - that Brian is not the Beach Boys, but merely one of them, and that the Beach Boys are the Beach Boys.

They f***ed up. They were the greatest. They're the fucking Beach Boys. They're everything to us until we either find something better (doubtful) or die (inevitable), and we're nothing in the long run. That's why we all love them and their music. I think that's fair bloody enough. And that's all I have to say about that.

Nothing like an overreaction is there...

I wouldn't say that Brian 'effectively destroyed' The Beach Boys but I guess he did decide that he didn't want the group to try to be number one any more when he released Smiley Smile. Obviously the drugs and mental health problems were a big contributory factor to that.

I wouldn't say Brian destroyed the BBs. Their survival as a creative force was dependent upon his ability to function, yes. Sure, some of the other members were talented, but he was the only one with the overarching capacity to produce a decent BBs album. So maybe as he lost his ability to lead, the BBs slowly eroded. But it's not fair to say he destroyed them. A lot of factors destroyed them.

As for Brian's reputation, it seems like his reputation as a genius in the 60s helped them tremendously. They certainly weren't going to win over the cool crowd with Mike (or Al, Bruce, or even Carl). But a genius known for making high art out of pop music is cool.

I actually became a fan through reading WIBN while going through a severe depression (my therapist actually told me a bit about Brian) in 1995 and then bought a VHS copy of IJWMFTT as soon as it came out (along with the soundtrack).  Actually, from then up until Imagination, he had some hipster cred. That's how I got to know him, which really disappointed me when I heard Imagination when it first came out. I mean, I saw the film, then went out and bought BW88, IJMFTT soundtrack, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Pet Sounds, 20/20, and Friends (in that exact order), and thought of him being this cool ass dude. I miss the quirky Brian, and if TPTB would've let Brian be himself more often, I think he'd still have the cred. But, they went the "mature" route, and actually out-Miked Mike Love at times.  The past few years, he seems to be getting his groove back, and really from the middle 2000s on, he's been productive, and now would be a good time to position him as the Johnny Cash-type.

I think Brian had a lot better of a reputation before 1976 then after. I wouldn't want to be defined in the public eye by mental illness. I would be sick of making "comeback" after "comeback".  OK in the late sixties and early seventies he was known to be eccentric but I think that he's been constantly exposed and exploited since 1976 in ways he shouldn't be. In other words there's too much hype about his decline and so called recovery/recoveries. Any body with some sympathy for the man can see that he won't ever be who he was in his twenties and people should learn to be understanding of that. I'm glad he does work at music still but I don't understand why he's made to be such a public figure when he so obviously doesn't want to be one. Brian does deserve to be called a genius for his sixties and early seventies work and various things since then, he does seem to be a decent guy, but he shouldn't be someone who is made to be a martyr. I don't even think he wants to be one but Brian triumphing over the evil Beach Boys is how he is marketed and that's sad. We all should know better.

Firstly let by saying that I love this board. As i sit here in the sunny Central Coast of NSW Australia with the cool ocean breeze and a beer in my hand i think of what it would have been like to see Brian in his prime at his true creative best. To me a 33 year old man with 4 boys, the Beach Boys music is life. My boys have gone sleep to the soothing songs of Pet Sounds and BWPS. They have listened to every snippet of "new" material I have found. My boys no all the words to Loop de Loop, games two can play and Wouldn't it be nice.
My 2nd youngest boy Lachlan was badly burned by some hot water a year back. And as his skin was peeling away as I washed his body under the cold water the only thing I could think of doing to stop him from screaming was to sing wouldn't it be nice. He stopped screaming and the Ambulance guys could not believe it. Me and my partner were both brought to tears by this. The MUSIC that Brian created is timeless it's perfection and in-perfection. He is human..Just!!

I think we fans have an adorable tunnel vision and are funny sometimes. The band still has albums that sell big numbers and are still in demand for live appearances and still are having shows and documentaries made about them and they are one of the most revered bands ever. Currently we like to have dirt on our heroes, so some has been discovered/invented/reported on Brian and the Boys and still [or therefore] their reputations are huge and they are still one of the most revered bands so far. No one and nothing has destroyed the group or their reputations.  That doesn't seem to be changing in the near future judging from the generational testimony on this board. IMO, of course.