The Smiley Smile Message Board

This isn't a thread to post music so much as to discuss making it. I thought it would be fun to hear people who create chime in now and again about their experiences: process, theory, inspiration, craft, what they're up to at the moment, or whatever else. I, for one, just reminded myself that I'm an absolutely terrible--terrible drummer. (Any good drumming on any of my songs is by one of two talented people, neither of whose names is Luther.) I took a song that I've never quite finished to add some drumming, set up some unimpressive mic'ing (I'm no engineer, either) and proceeded to piss myself off for about an hour on this 2-minute song. I don't like the cut-and-paste approach, but it might end up happening. Luckily for me, I'm off to lunch with a friend. Maybe I'll come back tonight sufficiently relaxed to do the part. Maybe I'll come back suddenly, unexpectedly good at drumming. Maybe I'll come back tonight having kidnapped a drummer.

btw, does anyone else notice that immediately upon posting anything in this forum (maybe the others, too, but I haven't noticed it), threads immediately have something like 16 visits? Is that just the site indexing new threads? Or are there people so bored that they hop on every new thread so quickly?

I'd quite like to be a drummer but have poor coordination and no drumkit. I did play on a friend of mines once along to 'Exile on Main Street' which was fun while it lasted. I'd also like to be able to play pedal steel guitar.
As far as writing songs is concerned most of the time the melodies come first then the words are written to fit that - apart from a lot of the choruses where a phrase or expression will trigger the melody for it and thus will then be 'the hook' and the start of the song. I will write chord sequences around the melody generally as then they are slightly more interesting, i'll only start a song off with chord sequences if the chords are quirky and I can fit something around that.
I hate those chart type MOR songs with a 4 chord sequence made up of something you've heard before (I'm sure most people know what I mean) as the melodies over it are usually unremarkable, you can also tell where the song is going to go. I also don't like writing lyrics first as then the rhythm of the words tends to dictate the rhythm of the melody (unless you're Elton John who seems to be able to do not do that).

OK, I'm home. Will I drum again? Hmmm ... maybe I'll give it a shot. Report back forthcoming.

I like to come up with a harmonic sequence that fits whatever mood/idea I'm working with, and then find a cool path in the notes to come up with the melody (I write on the piano, so by "path" I'm referring to, for example, the pattern of F#-A-B-D.  Whatever looks fun at the moment) and I fool around with that for a while.

I'm a really really slow worker, and even slower when it comes to writing and recording songs.  It's not that I like to dwell on things until I reach perfection, I'm simply slow.  I arrange pretty simple tracks but guitars and drums are sounds I often want in the song, and since I can't play either instrument I have to wait until a friend wants to help out.  I did just buy a Yamaha DD-5 drum machine.  Not ideal, but it makes all the difference to have at least some drum sounds.  I'm not good at any single instrument, but I love putting together a track.

I've only been heavily into music for about 3 years, and I've only been writing songs for the last year maybe.  And not prolifically at that.  So I'm definitely still working on finding my voice as a songwriter (and literally as a singer). 

I could probably ramble on a lot more.  They say it's no use talking about making music ("Talking about music is like dancing about architecture," however the saying goes) but I love discussing it as much as I like making it.  Cool thread.

I'm the opposite: I like to write fast, arrange/learn fast, and record fast. The results show it, of course, but so what? I'm not trying to sell anything! For me, I just want to get as much as possible "done," which is a tough term to define considering I revisit previously completed songs more than occasionally. As for talking about music, I'm with you. It's very interesting to me to hear how people go about things, not necessarily to steal ideas or try to find that special path so much as just discussing a shared interest. So I'm glad you're on board.

OK, I did it. I won't claim I drummed well, but I got through the song, anyway. Also just mixed it. I'll post in a moment in its own thread. The song (the basic track of which was posted here at some point a couple years ago, I believe) is called "Miserable Gray."

Listening again to that drumming of earlier today. Ugh. This is the downfall of recording: proof of incompetence.

Glad you started this thread Luther.  It's always interesting to hear about how others write/record/etc.

I work a lot differently than I used to.  My recording approach was a lot like yours when I was just starting out recording, around 17-18 years old.  I wrote songs quickly, recorded them within an hour and was done.  As you say, the results usually do reflect working that fast, but at the time I didn't care so much.  I suppose that was partly because I just thought it was cool to be recording songs that I'd written myself, but also because at the time, I didn't have the technical proficiency as a singer/player or knowledge of recording to do any better.  I can't listen to most of those recordings now (the mistakes drive me nuts), but they were good learning experiences in writing and recording.

Up until this past September, I really hadn't undertaken a recording project in about 5 years, so I wasn't sure what to expect.  But once I got going, I realized that I'm a lot more anal about my recording than I used to be.  Obviously, this makes the whole process a lot more time consuming than it used to be as well.  Nowadays, I need everything to be as perfect as possible (at least as perfect as my abilities allow).  On this recent project, I would agonize over every little thing, remix up to 7 or 8 times, and just generally drive myself crazy trying to make my recordings sound like I envisioned them.  In the end, I finished my project, and even though there are still a hundred things that I would like to fix, I came to realize that most people listening to the songs won't hear the little things that I consider errors.  The few times I've tried pointing them out to people, they think I'm crazy.  So in the end, I just try to make peace with what I've done, and consider it a learning experience that I can use to do even better next time. 

And believe me Luther, I know the feeling of listening back at something you've recorded and thinking "wow, I really suck" all too well.   

Interesting: I experienced a very similar change after a break. I had recorded (4-track cassette) throughout high school, with a clueless, rushed approach. (Actually I worked very hard at the playing in those days ... just not at all on the engineering.) But then I had about five years off. Upon my return, I, too, was much, much more meticulous. But then that newfound approach faded. I think the reason is that I just lose interest in the entire process when I take so long. Don't get me wrong, I can still suddenly take two hours on a single part when the spirit strikes, but more often, once it begins to feel like work, well, it feels like work. And I hate work. (I actually wonder if I'd want to stop making music altogether if it ever were my job. I think I would. Once something is required, it is unpleasant to me.)

Practiced some drums today. Tuned them up a little, which is something I am more or less clueless about, other than going on instinct. (No specific sound or goals in mind: just a "this is better/worse than that" approach.) With quite a few tunes in just guitar-vocals or piano-vocals scratch/demo status, I know I'm going to have to get to them finished, and part of that will be getting drums on them. Bandless (thank gods), that means either I hire someone, get a friend to do them on the cheap (which is hard to schedule), or just suck it up and do them myself. That's what I'll do. For better or--far, far more likely--for worse.

I also start with either the melody or a phrase that sounds "promising" in my head. Sometimes, these phrases are deliberately drawn from working titles from BB/BW songs (which is why I'm currently working on a song called "You're Grass And I'm A Power Mower"). Mostly, I finish writing the melody and chords the same day or maybe the day after I began. Lyrics take a little longer.

As for the recording process, I have the past few years acquired equipment (Presonus Firepod sound card, Cubase et c) that I thought would make me much more productive when it comes to recording. I have many dozens of songs written that I'm satisfied with, but only a few of them are recorded. I thought it all would change when this new, userfriendly equipment came my way. It didn't. If anything, I record less now, which really bugs me.

When I write songs alone I usually just sit down at the piano or guitar and see what happens. Usually I'll have some basic chord idea in my head and that may or may not end up being the basis for the song. As I'm sure you know, the next step is some magical process where the song creates its self, leading me to places I wouldn't consciously get to. At least the good songs do that. If it takes more than about twenty minutes to get at least a verse and chorus written I usually move on or give up. After that it may take a day or two of having the song in my head to finish it, but really the chords and words come together as one in that first twenty minutes.
Recording on 4-track or 8-track cassette is usually quick and often crappily played, but if i do say so myself, I am the all-time 4-track guy. I've recorded dozens of bands on that old thing, and even though I stopped years ago I still get weekly calls from folks who'd like me to record them. I've had the same Tascam for about 15 years and have replaced the motor in it 4 times! The 8-track is for my lazy days. Anyway, you get the idea.

After having had it pointed out to me by a friend who noticed the trend, I've realized that I "wrote" significant parts of many of my songs over the past five or six years while on walks. Not that I fully work them out--I'm not creating entire arrangements in y glorious mind!--but I sing melodies, lyric fragments, etc., repeating a little more and a little more as I go. It helps burn an otherwise transitory moment into my mind, I guess. And the streets, lakes, creek, parks and people just help me be creative, I think. When I get home I usually jot down the words and work out the chords that accompany the melody, so I won't forget them.

I get that too Luther. Usually followed by a mad dash to the nearest musical instrument/piece of paper before it goes away again  ::)


I'm terrible at leaving things half finished. I have an entire albums worth of material that's either missing bridges, some don't have words, others are just fragments.... and i spent most of the autumn going 'i'll do that soon' and now i'm writing new songs, so they're sliding further in the distance. That first hour whilst writing is so important, isn't it?

What instrument do you guys primarily write on, if any? and do you notice little trends in how you write - for instance, i've all but stopped writing on the guitar as of late, which is annoying seeing as it's the only instrument i have on me besides a ukelele (which is actually alright for writing - you get the 'funny' chords quite easily, but have only been playing since xmas)

I find that half-finished songs are best just left alone until they make their way back. I've got some, either partly written or totally written but not fully arranged or well recorded, dating back almost a decade. I'd guess in all there are probably 35-50 such songs, though surely some don't deserve to be finished and never well be. But when they do come back, either through some occasional, casual revisitation or just an unlikely reappearance in the mind, that's when they're just wonderful, a lot of fun to relearn, rework, rethink. Sometimes they go in wholly new directions, other times they are found to be fine as they were and just a pleasure to touch up. (Sometimes they can go to straight to the trash.)

man, i hope you're right. There's always that nagging voice in the back of the mind that keeps telling me to stop being lazy, get to a piano and finish them. My inner Murry, i suppose.

On the recording side of things, is it worth buying a 4-track off ebay in this digital day and age? i always wanted one, being a bit of a lo-fi nut, but wondering if the geekish thrill of owning one would subside and i'd go back to using the computer after a week. anybody here use them? would you say they were worth it (bearing in mind they're cheap)? easy to use? etc

4-track is my personal fave way of recording because of all the decisions it forces you to make during each step. It gives you real discipline ie, you can't just record 8 million tracks and see what sounds good. You also get a better feel for what guys like Brian and Jan had to deal with. I can't recommend the enough!!!

Yep, for sure.  Also, I record on a 4 track because I don't have a computer capable of handling multitracking.  My 4 track won't delay and crash on me, and the interface on my computer likely will.

Sounds good! now all i have to do is watch ebay like a hawk until my student loan returns......

I'll offer a dissenting voice, but with an explanation. I think the bulk of a cassette 4-track's charm (assuming that's what you mean, as opposed to higher quality tape) is just the nostalgia. Cassettes sound bad. The planning and ping-ponging are great experience, but nothing you can't artificially force on yourself with a computer. That said, I'd guess you can find a cheap one, so if you want to give it a shot, go for it.

Well Luth, I have to say you're dead wrong about cassettes sounding bad. Perhaps if you don't know what you are doing that would be true, but, like anything else, if you actually take the time to learn the craft you'll find they sound way better than the sterile, empty sound of digital recording. I have never heard a digital recording that has even 1/10th the warmth of analog, which is why guys like Neil Young abandoned digital after experimenting with it for years. I realize its a matter of personal taste, but i honestly can't think of a single reason to choose digital over analog (even 4-track cassette) other than laziness.

Don't pull any punches there, grillo. Anyway, I'm dead wrong, don't know what I am doing, don't take the time to learn the craft, and love sterile emptiness: it's my personal taste. Neil Young isn't a good example to toss my way, either, in that I hate his music. If you want my old Tascam cassette 4-track, you're welcome to it. (My real response would be a reiteration of your well-hidden admission that it is a matter of taste is correct. I'd follow that it isn't necessary to couch that in a "my taste is better than your taste," and that for me, whatever warmth people hear with analog music just isn't that big a deal. I'd rather have the options and simplicity digital recording offers, particularly in that I'm not someone with a studio sending him here or there to work in the analog realm at a decent studio where I could get both the magical warmth fairies and the freedom of pro gear.)

Luther, I don't want to derail but I'm always curious: Why don't you (or anybody that doesn't) like Neil Young? Is it the voice, melody, lyrics, guitar playing, style? It's just he's one of my favorites but I guess we'll have a trade-off (I don't care for Belle & Sebastian, you don't care for Neil Young)

There is no derailing this thread: listening to music is a big part of making it, I'd say, so it's fair game what we like and don't (as it gets us to what we make, and don't). Neil Young has never struck any chord with me to make me want to listen more. I've forced myself through a couple of albums--After the Goldrush, Harvest, a couple others--and songs here and there (including earlier and later stuff. But there isn't really anything that has ever made me want to do it again. The multiple chances I've given him have been because I have changed my mind on plenty of musicians before (including Beach Boys, Bob Dylan, and the aforementioned Belle & Sebastian, whose early work did nothing for me but more produced, later stuff hit the spot). So it might happen someday. Up 'til now, I don't even want to take the time to listen for what I don't like about it. Does that make any sense?

I was thinking about that, Luther and Grillo. I would certainly like to try it, learning the craft of 4 track recording appeals to the Wilson in me and i like me some analogue warmth, but am hardly the most skilled recording artist even with the supposed 'lazy' digital option i'm using right now. And i certainly do not agree with your view re: digital recordings, grillo. Still weighing up whether i would actually use the thing for anything other than the intial geek/nostalgia factor.....

Would my money be better used saving for some passable equipment like an external soundcard and some better mics, for instance?


And as for Neil, i'm pretty much the same. I've listened to Everybody Knows... and Harvest lots of times trying to 'get' him, but i find myself remembering not much more than 'hmm, nice solo' the next day. But then, i've gone off Bob Dylan in a very big way recently, so maybe i'm going off the 'serious' songwritery type.

That's the part I don't think anyone can help you answer.

You should take Luther up on his offer of his Tascam as they do make the best cassette 4-tracks!
Sorry to sound snobby about this Luther, but for me recording is an art, and like any art (including songwriting) it takes time, talent and desire to be good' at it, assuming that you want to be good at it. Of course if you just want to get your ideas down and move along to the next thing then yes, a computer would likely be easier, though less transportable (maybe?), so I guess it depends what you are trying to get out of the whole thing.
Hypehat, all you really need for a Mic is an sm57, especially if you are just getting started and you are recording one track at a time.
As for Neil Young, I too once couldn't stand him at all. Then somehow one day I was over at my buddy's house around the time of Harvest Moon and I think we were listening to On The Beach and it just clicked. Since then I've seen him more than just about any other artist except maybe the Flaming Lips (another analog band). Also, you might want to try reading his biography 'Shakey'. I found that to be a really eye-opening read.

I'm with Luther on the digital recording front.  Although I do tend to prefer the overall sound of analog to the sometimes harsh sound of digital, I can't reasonably work with my 4 track Tascam and produce anything even remotely close to what I would consider an acceptable sound.  Being a "one-man-band" (like many of us here probably are), I need as many tracks as I can get.  Working with only four tracks (digital or analog), I would have to bounce tracks several times over, which would result in an awful sound if using analog, no matter how skilled I am.  Plus, using digital technology, I can manipluate the sounds in so many ways later on using a computer editing program.  I'm a bit of a perfectionist to begin with, so there's no way I could live with the relatively sloppy sound that analog recording would give me.   

Like hypehat, I'm only moderately competent at recording to begin with, even in the digital world.  My only goal is to make the best possible recordings I can using the technology that is available to me.  If I had the time to sit around and experiment with analog, with other players/singers to alleviate the number of tracks issue, I would, but I don't.  I don't consider it "lazy" at all to use the digital tools that are available to us in 2010 - most of us just want our recordings to sound as good as possible, and in many cases, the limitations of analog just don't allow that.  You can't fault people for not wanting to spend the significant amount of time required to master analog recording, especially since there are real limitations that would hinder even the most eager student.

I'm not big on Neil Young either, but to propose a relevant hypothetical: if the technology that we have today had been available during Brian Wilson's heyday, you can bet your ass he would have taken full advantage of it.

I like (70s) Neil Young and Digital Recording and Belle and Sebastian (later stuff only). :)

I would say that for me the 'luxury' of going into a studio with all old analogue stuff is one that isn't likely to rear its head anytime soon so recording on my Mac (using Logic Audio) gives me a chance to do what I want.
I have recorded in studios before with tape (earlier in the decade before the digital stuff was everywhere) and spooling up the half inch tape everytime was a pain in the ass, as was having to reset the faders everytime I wanted to mix so on a practical level the computer recording wins hands down.

What really matters though to me is the song and then the arrangement, the performance and the production and as long as thats good then the recording equipment shouldn't be an issue.
I think sometimes artists use the recording equipment/studio/instruments as a bit of a crutch or a distraction from the actual material, like when McCartney used Bill Blacks original upright bass or whatever it was on 'Free as a bird' (I think), to me he could have used a bass found in a dustbin, all this icing is irrelevant if the song is a duffer. Or when Lou Reed talks about the type of amps he uses on a new album or Neil Young moaning on about CDs, I just think "Stop straying from the issue and just write some good songs".

As said by Chris above i'm pretty sure if Brian had had a computer back in the day then SMiLE would have been a bit of an easier finish (I dread even bringing SMiLE up!), but on the other side of the argument there is the thought that the limitations helped to inform the sound of Pet Sounds/Revolver/Sgt Peppers/Classic album xxxx etc... Though realistically i'm sure if the digital (and quicker) option had been there it would have been used; especially with people like Lennon and Brian who could be impatient on getting their results.

I'd agree that recording is an art (and a craft, which is more what you're talking about when you get much into the technical aspects, for which I have really very little interest). But recording is just a part of music-making, which is for me the far more interesting art (and craft). So under the music-making umbrella, my interest is without question on songwriting. After that, I'm most interested in singing. After that, guitar and piano. After that, maybe recording. And so on. Where I think you go wrong is assuming that "being good" means one single thing. It doesn't, even within just the recording aspect of music-making. It's not any different than there being no single "good" songwriting, guitar-playing, or singing. In each, there are many standards and widely practiced techniques, but there are also schools of thought and unique individuals. Now you'll have to pardon me for sounding snobby, but assuming your good is the good is somewhere between immature and foolish. Please don't be offended there or take it as a personal attack because I want this thread to go on with everyone interested saying whatever s/he wants about anything music-making related, but that is how I'd take that particular sentiment.

Luther
I meant to put good in quotes, in fact you can see I halfway did that. I take no offense, after all, we are on a message board where things can seem much meaner than intended without the visual and verbal cues you get from a face to face conversation.
I agree that being good is subjective, but most humans seriously interested in music can hear that (for example) an MP3 sucks compared to vinyl. I also agree that Writing music is way more of an art than recording because, as I said in a previous post, at some point the song writes itself, as if pulled from the ether, and that is a near magical experience when it happens. If I knew how to post songs online I would so you guys could hear that cassette 4-track can be every bit as good (I'd argue better) than a digital medium. Any hints?

Can I disagree again!? (Of course!) I believe songwriting objectively or inherently more important an art than recording. I just know I prefer it. (There are people who would probably rather make a perfect recording of [insert whatever sound here], for whom the pure technique of it all, the engineering, the gear, etc., are really the thing. As for knowing how to post songs, if you've got digital copies, you can upload for free to sites like sendspace.com, then post the links to those. Or of course you can become a member at any of the various websites where you can upload and share your music (myspace is an obvious one, but there are a lot I've seen on this forum). Granted, if you've got digital files, then your point is at least partially lost anyway, because you've left the analog realm.

Oh, and I've been watching all sorts of philosophy v religion debates lately, so to be honest, I'm even more argumentative than usual...in case you hadn't all noticed. Never take offense at me. I'm harmless.

I don't think you are disagreeing with me, as I too believe writing to be the real art, just like I said. Also, I'm not at all interested in the perfect recording, only the perfect feel, and for me that cannot be achieved using the digital medium. Yer right about the digital upload thing, still the relative quality will still be apparent. Thanks for the tip.

Damnit. If I just say "I disagree" here, can we pretend?  ;)

I will say that this performance of this song is what single-handedly got me into Neil Young.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU9_Q7PJuNQ

In my limited attempts to make songs, I find the recording process to be the most interesting part. Of course, there is something undeniably awesome about having some great sheet music that people will be able to replicate for centuries, but the recording process allows you to dream up truly magical sounds. Truly, you can create these intricate 'soundscapes' that are like worlds unto themselves, a snapshot of an inner mental or spiritual world. The studio allows you to extend the sound palette of your instruments. I don't know about you, but I want to exploit that. I've always been a fan of good producers that make ample use of reverb and echo, from Phil Spector and Brian Wilson in the 60s' to Kevin Shields of My Bloody Valentine in the 90s.

As of late, I've been interested in recreating the sound of recordings like Spector's "To Know Him Is to Love Him", as it more suites my equipment and ability more so than his later productions. For example, I've learned that a lot of Spector's harmonies (on later Wall of Sound recordings) are in fact just choirs reinforcing the natural harmonies suggested by the massive amounts of reverb, a sort of phantom harmony that Spector just reinforces. I don't think one could have really thought up some of those harmonies without the aid of modern recording devices, which capture the reverb for further analyzing.

A similar discovery I had centered around Nirvana's music. A lot of the songs are just power chords, as we all know, and if you were to literally translate the music to a piano, it would sound like it was out of the 13th century in terms of complexity. When most people cover Nirvana on a piano, they play triads instead, 3 note chords, and add in some stylish ways of playing to make the pieces more interesting. While these covers are good, they still lack something. Cobain was big on getting the right equipment and the right kind of distortion, and for a reason. The distortion and all of the feedback creates the illusion, at times, of more complex chords, so that a C minor 5 might sound like a C minor add 9. An accurate piano cover would have to account for such things, but that would be almost impossible.

Basically, the point of all of this is that I'm very interested in finding ways to capture the sounds that the world creates for me when I play. I prefer the chords and harmonies that natural world seems to want to suggest as opposed to what I can create, and I want to use those whenever I can.

Dada, I wish I was able to create those "snapshots of inner mental or spiritual worlds"! The recording process, to me, is often a disappointment, though. I can hear in my head how I want the song to sound, but I can almost never replicate that sound outside of my brain, but I guess that's something that comes with practice, practice and practice...

Interesting points on Nirvana, I must say.

Buying a piano for £1 off ebay because the seller happens to live in the same area of London as me - good idea, or great idea?

I'm dangerous when bored  ;D

brilliant idea.

It's not about hearing a completed song in my head. It's more that you get a specific emotion or thought and it colors the way you play (the rhythms, effects, and whatnot) and the melodies you come up with. Put together, it creates a world, in sound, out of what you were feeling. An example of this, for me, would be "Caroline No". I had a revelation about that song when I heard the stereo remix. All of the instrumental parts have their own feelings. Some parts might sound uplifting, some might some wistful, some might sound spiritual, some might sound downbeat, but it all goes together, and when its put together you have an accurate snapshot of Brian's inner emotional world. Never could it be expressed more clearly. The music is like a painting of his emotions. That's what I want out of my own music, to be able to understand myself through it and to share that understanding with other people.

Pretty thoughts.

Nearly through watching this lengthy (more than an hour and a half) lecture from musicologist Richard Taruskin. While it's not necessarily about creating music, there are some really interesting points here, especially (to me) the idea that artists have confused or equated "transgression with progression." (This point is introduced in the 50 minute range and revisited about half an hour later.) If you've got the patience, I recommend this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uxIZgVHjdk

Well there's a new way to look at it all. Music as a form of psychodynamic therapy. Had it not been in the middle of the night I would have headed straight to the music room to fiddle about with the instruments...

So Dada, when you record, would you say that your songs develop as you record them? When I get to recording a song I already have much of the arrangement figured out, which is probably why I get disappointed at the outcome when it doesn't sound like it "should". I'll try the "emotion colouring" approach next time.  :)

Well, I usually start out with a basic idea, which I may or may not record. Then, as time goes by (it could be hours, days, or weeks), after that initial take, I get different arrangement ideas or ideas for different parts or chord changes in my head, which I then add to it. Although I hear the parts in my head, I don't mind if it turns into something different when I sit down at the keyboard. Basically, I experiment until I feel emotionally satisfied with the parts. I want the parts to fit to emotions, not to specific musical ideas. In other words, I let my emotions drive the melodies. Of course, it all has to go together in the end. If a piece is in the key of C, for example, of course I will work within that framework to express myself. If the parts express the emotions I wanted to communicate, then I feel like I have created a snapshot of my inner spiritual world, as I said earlier. It's important to let go of control and allow the music to create itself. At its best, music is a subconscious process.

I'm not sure if that all makes sense. It's difficult to talk about this abstractly.

I understand this. But I also want to offer my different position. For me, that isn't really true. It begins as true, or at least it begins as partly true. The early stages of composition tend to be a series of jabs, with intuition (subconscious) leading the way. But once the framework of a song--by which I mean basic melody and chord structure--is in place, it's far less a matter of the subconscious. Then it is a matter of working with theoretical understanding/craftsmanship. The decisions made there, however, are of course done with taste, and that could be considered a subconscious understanding.

Any other non-drummers out there ever have the issue that when they are playing what feels like it's in time, recording shows the performance to be a little untimely? I think it's the bigger distances the body has to cover, so when I am trying to play, I feel like I am on beat--but it's because I am moving on the beat, not hitting on the beat. I don't encounter this in the more compact instruments I otherwise play. I was just messing around with a drum part on what is probably the most raw, rock song I have done in years, and experienced this. (Oh well. At least being a bad drummer enables a guy to do multiple takes, which then helps relieve the stress of work. Work is a motherfucker in a bad way. Drums are a motherfucker in a good way.)

"[Music] is the only religion that delivers the goods." FZ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLyArwnvuk&feature=related

Luther, sweet topic man. I really enjoyed reading (most of) these posts. I found them to be interesting and educational, as a fellow one man band dude. I also enjoy the convenience of digital. I wouldn't mind the warmth of analog though if I had the money/time/other performers to utilize.

That´s it i think, your explanation clarifies the creative process in my opinion: the intuition as the subconcious guide and then, as it develops tends to become more concious. It reminds me an article i read about Paul McCartney writing style:http://guitar.about.com/od/songwriting/ss/writing_melody_4.htm (http://guitar.about.com/od/songwriting/ss/writing_melody_4.htm)

From my limited experience, to write a song is a sort of chanelling process and it varies a lot: sometimes tunes come fast, sometimes takes a lot of time to even imagine a  melodic phrase or a satisfactory harmony. And i consider  very important certain elements as the mood i am in while trying to compose, the grade of obssesion(i find myself often blocked sometimes without even realize it or realize it till much more later), and how clear the main idea of the song is in my head. But this is i since i see it as a matter of frequencies. Of course this is just my approach to it.

Thanks Luther for bringing this interesting thread, it is very insightful to read the views of people involved in music creation.

DSamore and louielouie, glad to see you two joining the thread. I would love to see this thread--and this forum--really continue to grow into more than just a lot of people posting their stuff and hoping for praise or comments. Instead, if more people can generously (bravely?) give of themselves, either through this more theoretical thread or in terms of their criticisms to other people's work, I think we'd all get more value from it. What good is it to you to post a song and get 150 views, but only maybe one response--probably along the lines of "nice, cool song"? No, by really taking a little extra time to give here, we'll by definition all receive more criticism, information, ideas, etc. as well.

Luther, I'm with you on the drum thing. Only once have I managed to get a drum part on beat. Could very well be the distance to the instrument.

I've (temporarily) given up on using live drums on my recordings and currently I'm trialing and erroring with MIDI drums in Cubase. However, I seem to only have access to one, or maybe two, drum sets in that program, neither capturing the sound I'm after. Anyone else using Cubase? How can I get more drum sets to choose from? It must be able to download them from somewhere, somehow, right?

Well, it's 9 a.m. I've had coffee, juice, even an omelet. I've got nothing else scheduled for the day. Time to get down into that basement and begin that Sisyphean task: drumming. I don't want to become good, necessarily, so much as just passable. I want to a) do well enough on basic parts to handle at least some of my music without having to seek outside help, and b) get better at recording drums to get a decent sound. (I have not got much of a natural ear for drum sounds, and to date I don't have the patience to develop it.) What else are Saturday mornings for?

Drumming went far better than I thought. having thought through the part the other day really helped. (I'm not going to lie: with guitar and often piano, I don't really think it through, I just get it done. Fast.) Unfortunately, I don't remember the chords to this stupid song, so now I have to quick figure out what I did the first time around. (It's an old scratch track I'm going by; if I ever wrote it down, I don't know where I'd find it.)

Almost done.

I've got an offer from a distant family member for a free, allegedly working Yamaha Electone FS550 digital organ (early/mid 80s vintage). Anyone ever used one? Do I want this? Note: 330+ pounds. I do have space for it in my basement, though I might die getting it down there.

Don't know - a digital organ would be fairly low on my list of instruments to purchase. Might as well buy a cheap keyboard and do your back a favour....

Lost the piano by the way - went back up to my halls at university after placing the £1 bid, but the snow knocked out the internet there and i couldn't see whether i'd won...... outbid by 20p!  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Anyone else find the time to record/write/pick up the guitar just doesn't exist some weeks? so frustrating, especially since my time is kind of constrained anyway seeing as the aforementioned halls are hardly music lovers.....  ::)

Luther, you should definitely get the organ. I haven't owned (or played) a FS 550 myself, but other related, and I really like the sounds you can get out of them. Foot pedals are also nice.

Nowadays I have a Yamaha YC-45D from the mid 70s. It is said to be portable, only weighing about 140 pounds... (of course excluding the 160 lbs amplifier). Organs are heavy stuff.

Re- The 4 tracks

I think if you get a pretty decent one that records at double speed and has BX or Dolby C noise reduction you can do great things with them.    You do have to plan upfront with them though.
I used to love mine and infact I only upgraded to a 12 track digital thing when the belt went on my Teac and I couldn't get a replacement for a while.

I cut the whole track of this song on a Yamaha cassette 4 track then did a mono dub over to a TEAC reel to reel so i could add vocals
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6249805

I don't think I'm going to get the organ. What good is a digital organ if I have a (better) digital keyboard as it is? What I'd prefer to do is get some more natural keyboard instruments: an older organ, a Rhodes, etc. I'm not lugging around 300+ pounds of early digital keyboard.

If you can find nice wurlitzer electric piano I think you'd really have some fun with it. They are generally smaller than a rhodes and ,to these ears (and I know our ears seem to have different opinions :)), they sound better. I'm also a big fan of Lowry organs, though they are obviously rather large and meant for your house and not so good for touring.

Touring won't matter to me. It's all just for the house, so as long as I can get it here and don't have to move it around much, I'm good.

What good it is? There's a very special feeling playing an eletric instrument that you know would kill you with its sheer weight if you happened to get under it.

Can't get that with a modern keyboard.  :)

Not sure if you all have been paying attention, but the board's own Adam Marsland has released a new album, Hello Cleveland. It was written on tour in a few days and recorded in less than half a day. As of now, I believe it's available only through orders to his website. So there is plenty there that's interesting about the approach, not to mention a major departure from his excellent double album Go West from last year. And me, I prefer this year's album. (Possibly no surprise to those of you who know my style and tendencies.) But it definitely raises interesting (at least to me) issues surrounding the state of music, and the best way for people involved in it to go about their craft. Anybody else heard? Want to discuss?

A co-worker loaned me for the weekend his little Ashbory fretless electric bass. It's tiny, like maybe 18 inches long, 24 tops. Fat little plastic strings. But it sounds pretty good, almost like a stand-up, and is fun. So I began a new version of my jazzy tune "Louisiana" to see if I could get a cool thing going. Got piano, bass, and guitar done, but the drumming wasn't going well. While it should be easy to do, subtlety is not the strength of a shitty drummer! Too much space to hear the errors. Anyway, I'll try to finish it up tomorrow. Anybody ever try one of those little basses, though? This guy at work swears by it, says he's done plenty of jazz gigs and various pit-orchestra theater gigs with it.

(http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/regular/0/0/1/269001.jpg)

Strongly considering recording KISS's "Hooligan." Acoustic blues.

Never mind that, how did you get on with that bass? Never seen one of them before....

It was fun and sounds cool, but I'd need more than a weekend to really put it to use. The scale is so small, it takes a long time to really feel comfortable (especially in that it's fretless and so positioning is extra important).

btw, my one and only attempt recording with the little f*cker--presumably ever, since I am returning it to its owner tomorrow--should be posted presently. Just gotta mix it quick.

I can never get on with fretless instruments - tried a mates' fretless bass and i was lost. Listening to that tune, it's really good - like the drumming too, i think you sell yourself a little short.

And at least you own a drumkit - been trying to get access to my university's practice drumkit to record, but have had such little luck (i'm not a music student, so they won't let me book a room, even if they're clearly empty/unbooked for the day) i had to resort to making a 'kit' out of a suitcase, my tambourine and a bunch of envelopes stuck in a bag.... the perils of bedroom musicianship ::)

Can´t wait to hear it!,  i´ve never seen anything like that little bass. I wish i could play it.

Man, I can totally relate to that! You don't know how many of my tunes have that sort of percussion.

How are your work habits, all? I've been really lazy in recent weeks, as work has been awful. The ironic thing is, I hate work less when I use my free time writing or recording, so if only I'd get off my ass for that first move, not only would productivity result, but better spirits. Alas. Motherfuck. I hate work. And I'm lazy.

Hey look, this thread is back. And here's why: I could go for some advice as to how to handle a few bars of music. A 4/4 andante tempo tune, currently being banged out in block chords, verse in Dmaj, which is where I'm resolving with the refrain. I like the first four bars of the refrain, but then after that I can't decide how I want to answer/end it. Thoughts? Refrain atm starts: Bbmaj7 ' ' G-7 / C7 ' ' ' / Fmaj7 ' ' ' / ' ' ' ' / G-7 ' ' G7/D  / A-7/C ' ' ' / A7 ' ' ' / B7 ' ' ' / Bbmaj7 ' '' / C7 ' ' ' / Dmaj7 ' ' ' .

This is a very hasty recording of what I'm talking about. The chord pattern outlined above begins at about :20 and the part I really am uncomfortable begins around :30. But when I do anything other than what's there, I end up rewriting what's there. (btw, forgive lack of sound quality. I literally did zero mic setup or anything, just turned things on where they were and banged it out to give you the idea.) http://www.sendspace.com/file/vfijmg

To me as soon as you get to the B section it starts to sound more and more pro forma, and it leads you up a tonal ladder you can't get down from.  How about changing the root to create parallel movement downward, and then going for a slightly more bluesy sound?  Like this (one bar each unless otherwise noted):

Bbmaj7 --  C7/G -- Ebmaj7 -- C7sus4add2 // C7 // -- (repeat 2x) (any variation of C7 would work for the last bar, the sus add 2 just sounds good and in line with the other chords you're using)

To me that's a really good progression that you can hang almost any kind of a hook on, it's sophisticated but easy to grasp, and it should lead easily back into the A section.

RANDOM....

In the song 'Little Honda', right when Mike starts to sing, an electric guitar comes in...it sounds palm-muted...it comes in right at the 3-4 second mark. I've tried a lot of things, but haven't been able to properly emulate it. Does anyone know how to make this sound?

Good idea, Adam, thanks. I'll play around with that idea and see what develops. (The world's first Hermanson/Marsland...  :smokin :lol )

I just picked up on the 2-year-old beginnings of a re-recording of a nearly 10-year-old song of mine. Feel me breathing down your neck, Jardine? Do ya? Anyway, I drummed a bit this evening, and roughly mixed that. Later tonight or tomorrow I'm guessing there is some redoing of bass, some piano, more background vocals, possibly a new lead vocal, and a mix in store. Hopefully I'll finish and post it Saturday.

you son of a bitch Luther, i nearly dropped my laptop after reading that  :lol  :lol  :lol

Spent some time doing some drum-recording, and another hour or two wading through it to edit together a usable track. Yes, my actions are no doubt against some of those more vocal folks in the "TLOS Sound Quality" thread who supplemented their brickwalling complaints with criticisms of sampling, editing, and presumably the light bulb itself. But I believe in separation of recording and performance. As long as it isn't presented as a live event, why should it be assumed to be one (or be valued more greatly for being one)? Anyway, hopefully in the next day or two I'll be doing the other tracks--and unlike with drums, I am fully capable of performing those parts!--and will post the results on this forum.

Time for a little revive, i think.

Have recently found a bass amp that my uni chucked out, but own no bass, have been asked to soundtrack a friends production of The Snow Queen despite never having done such an act before, am in possession of a strange compulsion to do a 'Variations On California Girls' orchestral piece, and have an albums worth of slightly finished tunes that if i find time between all the above, my course, my acting, and my drinking I'll finish completely.

With regards to the soundtracking business, has anyone here tried doing this sort of thing? I'm kind of worried it's going to be a lot harder than it seems.

Also, i found I have no compulsion to write songs anymore... this worries me a little. I'm putting it down to stress, but still.

What's everyone else been up to lately?

About five years ago my neighbor was putting on a production of Duck Variations by Mamet in Portland and asked me to record some music for between scenes and during the intermission. Basically all I did was come up with three or four musical themes, or feels as Bri likes to call them, and recorded variations of them. I then added an unfinished backing track or two from a recording project i was working on and lastly, my neighbor came over and we recorded 'wildlife' sounds (the play takes place in a park) which was very SMiLE-like and fun. Voila, forty minutes of incidental music. I recommend it very much.

Maybe it's that winter here makes it hard to do much else, but in the past few weeks I've gotten going again with some music. As a nice little bonus, I came across a pair of notebooks full of songs, some of which I had entirely forgotten, others of which I sort-of remembered, but not necessarily in detail. Not to say it's a goldmine, but it is a welcome memory-jog. The tune I posted today, "Letters (Please Come Home)," is one of those. I don't know how many of them I'll record, but whatever. Anything to spur some musical thought, I guess.

I've started keeping notebooks of musical ideas/chords/lyrics/thoughts/quotes. It's amazing how all this stuff can add up to a song. I work landscaping...Since landscaping is normally done in the warmer months I have a lot of down-time in the winter, so I've been writing music like crazy these last few months.

Your song is sounds VERY 'Friends' influenced! Love the happy-sound/chord changes! The lyrics are sad but the instrumentals are very happy sounding - nice balance!

Thanks (about the song). While Friends is definitely one of my favorite records, I can't say I ever would have made that connection. I wrote it before I had heard Friends, I think...maybe around the same time. Regarding keeping notebooks, it can get insane. I forget things entirely, which is just as well, since if I remembered them, I struggle to find them. Rewriting songs, or combining bits of different songs, or deconstructing them, makes it harder still to keep track. I think I find what I'm after only to find it's the wrong version.

I am not at all a gear-head or collector of any sort. But today I'm a little giddy: I bought a Martin D-35, easily the best acoustic guitar (hell, the best guitar, period) I have ever owned. I learned on my dad's old (late '50s D-18, I think, though he doesn't have it anymore so I am guessing) Martin, and they have always been my preference for acoustics. I've got another one, a cheaper, acoustic-electric cutaway, but this is another league.

I wish i could get a new electric. But dammit, i have to do boring things like eat and pay rent.

Have recently moved my entire kit and caboodle up to London, so now I pretty much have a home studio! Kind of excited. Have also been reunited with my keyboard, which i hadn't used in months. All i need to do is get this cursed degree out the way and i can start making a record....

Any drummers who may feel like drumming on some of my songs, pm me. May want to check out some of the stuff from that "friggin bunch of..." thread to get a feel for what I'd be after. No intention of doing anything more with the results than what I do with them now, but I'm certainly open to negotiations as to compensation.

If I played drums, I'd be happy to help!

The somewhat plagiaristic music I have recently made for the production of Romeo & Juliet I am in right now..... Us Beach Boys fans might recognise The Capulet Party music.

http://www.mediafire.com/?em3cqczznj51pnj

I'm not sure if anyone cares what I have to say, but here goes!

When I am writing a song I try to clear my mind completely and sit down at my piano. Then I hit just one note.

After hitting this one note I like to have a melody come to my mind.

After hearing the melody I then figure out what kind of chord to make over the note (major, minor, 7th, 9th, augmented, diminished, or a major or minor 7th with a wild, unexpected bass note)

and from there I just try to figure out the usual 3 or 4 song chord structure based on my melody in my head.

Next I try to write a bridge by using the opposite chord as my first chord (for example if my verse started with C major, my bridge will start with A minor), although this is obviously not a LAW.

From there, depending on how much energy I have I will write a completely different section of the song using just the melody and then try to bring in the original chord structure underneath it with some extra instruments and melodies, just to make the song's finish more epic.

I have done this technique probably 50 times.

I've been listening to your 'Isn't It Nice To Be Loved' album a bit lately. I really like the melodies in it - My favorites from it: Solving Problems For You, Change Is Hard, Outside In The Sun is such a fun melody! She Tells Me No, Making it Tough, thirteen - friggin' love that song. It really is a great album.

I also love that the songs are really short in length...but each packs a good sized punch.

Have any plans for a future album?
______

Anywho, on to my futile musical ventures:

I'm trying with all my might to stay away from the 4 chord structure. I've also been finding jazz chords to substitute regular chords in my music.

For my latest project I've been listening to A LOT of Smile songs for inspiration. I just wrote one in the spirit of 'Wonderful' - even including plucking violin strings.

Also been listening to some Gershwin for melody inspiration. I think it was a recent Brian Wilson quote where he said he was disappointed where music had gone these days - he hoped that more artists would be experimenting with better melodies - and they are not. I totally agree with him. Am to F to C to G (which I have used immensely) is the most overused chord progression ever in history.

I hope to have some of my most recent music up sometime soon to share with you all.

I'm waking up again a little bit musically, beginning to write some new tunes and identifying several older, never properly recorded ones to work on and get out of the way. (Five of those at the moment, actually, with no more than one or two of them having been posted here in demo form, I don't think.) Kind of psyched.

That's good to hear!

I have been doing the opposite, actually. But it's not like I haven't been busy with other things, acting, working, etc. But the music has gone by the wayside for now, which is a shame. I'm just not very motivated. This might come from living with much better/successful musicians than me.

I like this from a John Darnielle (The Mountain Goats) interview with Mother Jones. The context is, he's talking about how he has been relatively prolific, doing something like an album a year for however long.It fits in with my de-romanticized view of writing, and of music. Not that there is nothing that feels other-worldly sometimes, both in process and result, but that you can't get caught up in the mumbo-jumbo of magic. You write. There are words, there are chords, there are notes, there are rhythms. Like Lou Reed always says Andy Warhol told him, "just work."

Damn, same interview (found at http://motherjones.com/media/2011/03/john-darnielle-mountain-goats-all-eternals-deck%20 by the way) also just happens to have a line that's extremely relevant to this board in general. A good thing to keep in mind. (Bolding my own; left in the rest because it's a nice piece of context.)

Have been going 'to work' lately, on some segues for another show at Brighton Festival in May. Dealing with non-musical types is difficult when trying to nail down what they want, but it's all 'orchestral' stuff - string quartets, clarinets, that sort of thing.

Have also, in an intriguing turn of events, started to get involved in a friends film project which would involve me writing four part harmonies. Time to put my BB's obsession to good use!  ;D

Am also trying to get some other project off the ground in the style of The Point! - A fairytale album, i suppose, with none of the trappings of crappy concept albums. My friend is writing a story, unfinished as of now, but it's hard to get across exactly what I want and it's a little tenative right now. Only written one bit of music, which is a little Bacharach style chord progression. Am away from my piano for a month, and by god do I miss it  :'(

What's up with everyone else?

Please do keep us updated on your score for the film. Sounds like an interesting project. Do you write out harmonies for songs others have written or do you start from scratch making oroginal music on your own for your friend?

Speaking of four part harmonies, myself and the three other guys in the Surf School Dropouts (http://www.reverbnation.com/surfschooldropouts) have been rehearsing Graduation Day these last couple of weeks. Those harmonies in the chorus are really tricky and take a lot of getting used to. We finally got the final chorus, the most complex one, right tonight after much blood, sweat & tears.  ;D

As for our own stuff, we recently completed this song:

http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_7842920

It won't be until sometime later this year - they have to sort out everything else like actors, finishing the script, etc, including people to sing it as my voice is not strong enough. It's a weird plot - a man finds out he has split personalities, which manifests itself as a doo-wop group.   ;D

You're a braver man than I, although I have been working my way up to pickng apart BW's harmonies. It's testing the noodle, but i do like the challenge. Those are good songs, btw! Should have picked up on you dudes earlier  ;D

Oh man, I'd love to see this. That has to be the most wacky, yet brillant idea for a film I've heard about!  :-D

And thank you for the kind words about our music...

Superass rough draft with unmixed track and scratch vocal just to flesh it out. http://www.sendspace.com/file/guqbm3

Nice as usual, Luther - The chorus is ace  ;D Hows the productivity these days?

My latest musical endeavour - 9 segues for the production of The Importance Of Earnest I'm going to be in over the weekend. Nice if only as experience for me to do the whole 'variations on a theme' thing. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zfr8zrj4bszftz4

Thanks. I am just getting going. Began this Sunday or Monday, I think it was, and will finish it up before long. Four more to go in short order.

Spent my post-work late afternoon working on another new recording. Like the last one, it's a silly childhood story with no real business being a song (but I think that's the fun ... and hey, it's not like anybody has to pay for them!). I really had a quick and fun time coming up with a bassline, and the acoustic guitars were simple. But now I'm not really sure what I want to do with it. There is a prominent octaved piano melody in the intro (and then that figure when it is repeated), but I can't decide whether and how to work it in otherwise. I hate to have something that prominent and then just remove it the rest of the tune, but it seems to be redundant or too busy when I add parts. I'll take a fresh stab this weekend.

I shouldn't worry about that, but I'd have to hear it. In my experience, what usually gets me playing songs over and over are bits only repeated once or twice. Does it sound busy if you just stick it after the chorus?

Just had the following exchange.

Friend: so I'm looking for piano players for a BA animation project, and you make music, right?

Me: Yes, but i'm no piano player.

Friend: So you'll do it?

Oh well, I suppose it keeps me busy  ::)

I think I found a workaround for my arrangement problem: I kept the primary piano part I wanted in and a going to mix down the other parts; then, I doubled part of the piano on electric guitar, with that meandering off its own way at other times. So I can really feature the bit I liked but then it naturally goes off into different directions as the song moves on, as opposed to abrupt new instrument or part. I think the instrumental track is 85% done (not counting mix) with vocals coming up before long. But now it's off to see the Fiery Furnaces.

Have fun! and then post it!

Up next is going to be a tune called "Guilty Too," which I think of as a classic rock sounding thing, but I don't know that things sound to people the way I describe them to myself. (Turns out the references I have in my head don't always relate directly to whatever it is I am doing, more as an idea, a word, the sound of one small thing, not the song at large, etc.) So anyway, I am about to import Adam's drums. Tonight or tomorrow morning I'll get those together, then it's time for tracking.

I was working on the above on Sunday. Unfortunately, we were in our third consecutive day of heavy thunderstorms, and while I got a piano and an acoustic guitar track done, I also had to keep stopping because of REALLY loud rain and thunder. It was insane. (There is still an audible thundercrash at one point of the piano because I was sick of stopping and starting.) So anyway, I'm still at it. Just slow going. (Doesn't help that I don't have a bass line in mind. I thought it would come quickly, but it didn't.)

Dude, not only was I loving I Struck A Nerve.... i found myself listening to To Spite Your Face and When You Lie afterwards... anf they still rock!  ;D


Work on my latest fairytale project gathers apace. Here is an exceedingly rough voiced demo, to be sung by a girl and placed in context obvs. I am making these demos for the girl writing the prose around them, but figured it'd be nice for someone to hear.

http://www.mediafire.com/?2w29r2om1dbrlzr

Thanks. And downloading now.

It's nice. I don't think I will be shattering any dreams when I say that what you posted didn't floor me. It very much has the feel of a good piece of music intended to further a performance. And the music certainly can be brought back throughout a performance. I think it is successful.

Yeah, my voice was definitely shot, I was a little hungover, and couldn't read my own writing and kept turning the page, so the performance can definitely be improved :P

Spent the past two hours or so working on the aforementioned track. Sadly, at least half of that was for a single rhythm guitar part that, once I got down cold and did a great take (if I do say so myself  ;D ), I listened back and cut out about 80% of it: just wasn't going to fit--was getting too busy. Also got a bass part I'm happy with, some other simple little rhythm guitar things, and a banjo. Vocals (which is going to include quite a bit of backgrounds, so that will be time consuming) are all that's left. And mixing, of course.

Thinking about getting started on the 4th of the 5 songs I have more or less ready to go (i.e., having Adam's drumming). This next one is "Waste Not, Want," and it's quite a bit more aggressive than my usual songs.

Got drunk and evening's plans were canceled. That means I am seriously thinking about tackling the aforementioned tune now. But not about tackling it seriously. I think I need to pick up some wine. Then I might get after it.

Intoxication is a blessing and a curse.... I find i tend to write better after a beer, but before long i get distracted, which doesn't tend to happen when i write 'dry'.

Didn't want to further derail vintagemusic's thread with discussion of this, but I did want to talk about it. Namely, I don't think either of those two things (virtually anyone can release music; the album is losing ground as the dominant way to buy and hear music) is a bad thing at all. (I didn't even bother with the concept album quote, because frankly I abhor most of those.) What do you all think about these things? Is the music world better if we have stronger gatekeepers? Is an album the preferred method of delivery, as opposed to the individual song?

Before the album emerged as the dominant form, we had plenty of history of the single song being dominant.
So I would say the obvious answer is  it's better for people who want to concentrate on single songs. Clearly
in an album context you can do more and say more. But with Brian Wilson's pocket symphony of Good Vibrations
we see just how great, and how many twists and turns you can take in three and a half minutes.

As far as a gatekeeper (record companies) certainly in my view, they deserve a lot of the blame for the state of
the music business. However changing technology, tastes, and the worst economy since the 1930's doesn't help.
I think it's very telling, that 40-50 year old music by the Beatles, or Beach Boys or Pink FLoyd can dominate the charts
on Itunes or Amazon a half century after release. I think SMiLE may do very well, and one reason is because many
people prefer the sound to most of todays contemporary groups. Every era can't be a golden age, for whatever
reason we have been for 10-20 years in a dismal age for popular music. Certainly their are triumphs in recent music
history but I don't see anyone who compares with The Beatles, Beach Boys, Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan, The WHO,

There is so much music from so many venues by so many artists, and it's all recorded mechanically, everyone has access to the same sounds, you know when Brian Wilson used the theremin on Good Vibrations, you couldn't push a button, a guy had to
come in and play in pitch, getting sounds was part of the art form and arranging technique, thats mostly a lost art
everybody has the same sounds. We tried really hard on my last thing playing wooden coconuts and real drums
and weird little ukelele's and bailakas and whatever we could to get sounds. Tom Petty on Wildflowers uses all organic
sounding stuff. Dylan, Beach Boys, Beatles, Who Pink Floyd as soon as they come on you know who it is, even if
you never heard the song before. IT was much better if you could get airplay and a record deal before and some
commitment from the label, but now, there are like ten people that get a gold record and it used to be like 500
or a thousand. I Know famous people putting out records and selling like 800 copies. I'd say anything is better
than what we have now. What we have now is terrible for almost everybody. I think 40 year old re-issues make
more money than just about anything else. It's important to make a few bucks now and then to keep doing the
music. Otherwise it eventually comes to an end in your life as anything but an avocation.

I think we are diametrically opposite in everything. (Apparently other than liking beach boys music.) I don't believe in golden ages (or rather believe that every age is a golden one). I don't think we're in a dismal age at all.

What?????????????????????????????

You don't think the age of the Beach Boys, Beatles, Dylan in his prime, Pink FLoyd, Simon & Garfunkel, Janis Joplin
Hendrix, The WHO, STones, Byrds, CSNY, Steely Dan, Led Zeppelin, Grateful Dead, Aerosmith, Elvis, was better
than what we have now? Hello ? what universe are you in ?


Music sales are down to a pittance,, hall of fame acts are scrapping to make a few bucks, record companies
are going belly up left and right, job layoffs in music have been horrendous, only a tiny handful of acts have
made money, and many of those aren't even musicians or songwriters, just rappers or packaged acts. Only
the EMI back catalogue of Beatles, Pink Floyd and Beach Boys, has staved off one of the four majors (EMI) from
going belly up, and they may still. And its not just the death of the record company, as we understood it, almost
no artists are making money, except for a lucky few vintage acts hitting the road with their oldies hits, U2
McCartney, Tom Petty, The WHO, Roger Waters has trouble selling out 500 seat theatres, as does Roger Daltrey
Ringo Starr, and most surviving hall of fame acts, how many seats does Al Jardine sell for a show ? Three Dog Night
plays amusment parkls and thats a good gig for them. They sold 50 Million records!  50 Million! and they play shows
on cruise boats with a buffett!

Look you must be a young guy, and young people being optimistic  about their own generation and music, is a good thing.
but the music business is like something that has been nearly killed by a plague, there is just no money in it for
most people that used to make a decent living. Just jackals cleaning the bones of the carcass. I personally believe that
just like the old record companies, the digital retailers get first looksee at the numbers and my personal belief is
they rip off the artists with fake numbers just as bad as the standard record companies usually did.

Mo Ostin where are ya! Come Back!

On the positive side, people with talent can market an album or single and record it with a very small investment
out of their own pocket that would have been impossible before  pro tools and downloads, so in that respect it is a good thing.

So in the 20-30 years of music represented by the list above, you picked 16 successful artists. Which would be impressive if you disregard the hundreds of artists from the same time span, whose music has long since been forgotten to history, often deservedly.

I'll give you this: I don't know if we'll ever have another Beatles or Brian Wilson for the kind of music they made. But who's to say we won't discover some new way to capture or shape music? A few centuries of music history suggests we will; I doubt that a Chicago or New Orleans recording engineer from the 1910's could even fathom the possibilities available from equipment 50 years in the future.


In the words of Peter Venkman: cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!

I really like this quote from Mick Jagger (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8681410.stm):


Granted, I doubt Jagger is analyzing the industry in extreme detail, but I think his point is apt: a gargantuan, lucrative record industry is the exception, not the norm.

(Also, I love putting his name in the author thingy, as if he reads this board.)

Edit: This thread is awesome. Maybe I should post something of my own here; seems like a pretty constructive group.

You're a pretty sharp cat Austin, and I don't disagree with you really. or Mick Jagger.
But it's those 25 years that people got paid, that represents (for the most part) the
golden age of pop. Hey Gershwin, Cole Porter, Hoagy Carmichael, There has always
been great stuff around, but if you like to play the four/four and write your own tunes
and make a little record out of it, it is a dismal time. You need a hit to be a draw, and
getting a hit with something inspired by Brian Wilson or The Beatles is almost impossible.
Especially if you're a white guy from America. Its All the chicks now, Lady Gaga or Amy Winehouse
or rap music or hip hop, just about everything I would rather rip my fingernails out than
listen to (Amy Winehouse excepted She's good)

I never did it for the money, and protools and download sales have made it possible for me
to release an album every few years on a small budget without support of a standard record
company. So there is good and bad in everything. I don't need to go begging to a label for a
couple hundred grand just to record ten songs. Ten songs they would supervise, cull. shape
and generally mess with.

Something else will emerge you are right of course.

Finally I would say this.. I think there is a symbiotic relationship between the great artists and albums
and their fans, the label, the times, the technological advances, and the management. Without Chuck Britz and
Larry Levine and the A&R people at Capitol, and response of the fans, would a Good Vibrations be possible?
I think great artists in part respond to the challenge and circumstance. Brian Wilson really wanted to outdo
the Beatles and vise versa in a type of collegiate rivalry. Without the label grooming these acts and backing them
for half a dozen albums at least, and the competition between acts, the notice of critics, Would John Lennon have
ever written Norwegian Wood or I am The Walrus without the system and paradigm that was in place. Don't you
need a George Martin and EMI and a six abum contract to get to that point. Is some marvelous protools gear and
microphones that mimic a U87 really enough?

Paul Simon once said "think too much"

Son, you're crazy. You speak as if now that your favourite musicians aren't making music anymore that music is dead. There are plenty of bands going round having respectable careers who have never had 'hits', as if the concept meant much nowadays - wasn't it Cake or some nineties rejects that managed to get to No. 1 in the Billboard Charts with something like 40,000 records earlier this year?

If you want to talk golden ages, I think we're on the cusp of something. If only because the record industry is dealing with the sheer volume of new talent afforded by affordable gear, like pro-tools, that could take a lot of things back towards the artist. Like you do, many talented people can record their albums on the hoof, and labels will take it - Bon Iver and The Antlers are two semi-recent examples. Also, even you are pitifully closeminded when it comes to hip-hop, the creativity in those records, both production and songwriting wise, is evident in so many new bands in a way that isn't 'lets rap over guitars', but the attitude and spirit. Try listening to the latest Tuneyards album.


And you'll be grinding your dentures in the rest home when they compare the pop songteams and songwriters of today to Goffin & King, the Brill Building, or Leiber & Stoller. You think if you heard EVERY SINGLE Leiber & Stoller song on the radio when they came out, every single attempt that they made to get hits, that you wouldn't get annoyed? Yet because we disregard the hundreds of flops and focus on 'Hound Dog' or 'Spanish Harlem', the hits, we call them genius. I bet you anything you like they'll be saying the same about Dr. Luke or Timbaland.

Austin has said this after a fashion, but think long and hard about this. You are the exact same person, but listening to the radio in '64. The Beatles come on. Are you going to notice the [inserts positive waffle about the beatles], or think 'Those damn Beatles. Killing Tin Pan Alley by writing their own songs! Those stupid haircuts! Those loud guitars! No finesse! No Craft! I'm gonna go put on my old Cole Porter records!'

I don't really have a response, Austin and hypehat more or less hit a lot of it. I'll just add a few things. Am I a young guy (vintagemusic asked)? Medium, for this board: about to turn 35. Too old to truly be on the cusp of the new, too young to have been around for the old stuff.

This, regarding sales. vintagemusic, you seem to have it both ways. You're correlating the collapse of the music industry with a collapse in sales, but you're disparaging the things that get huge sales: hip hop, for example (which for you to dismiss off-hand says more about your argument than it does about hip hop, btw). The music industry's sales have collapsed primarily because of technology. People can, and thus will, get recorded music for free. Simple as that.

You fail to note that income from live shows is up. I'm not talking about the classic rawk oldies tours, though I'm sure they're doing ok. I'm talking about working musicians. New musicians. The ones who are totally under your radar, apparently, dismissed as not being the Beatles or the Who. The smart among those bands are actually thriving in a business sense, because they have more control over themselves than they ever have. They own their music, they sell their music (sometimes), and they sell tickets. The industry may be dead, but making a living off of music isn't--not by a long shot.

Last, on the idea of the golden age, I'll have to reiterate an already made point because I think it's hugely important: there will never be another golden age for the people who find the golden age to be the "canon" of Beatles, Dylan, Beach Boys, etc. But that is nothing to bemoan--it is something to celebrate. Art changes or it ceases being art. If we had music somehow continuing only in that tradition, music that appeals that directly to the people who made that music, it wouldn't be especially good. It would be nostalgia.

As new generations are born and come of age, they want to do new things. Those new things are obviously rooted in what they've heard, and so we're always going to hear Beatles in pop. We can't avoid that. We're always going to hear Dylan in pop. But what musician would set out to ape them? How terribly sad a life to have your ultimate goal being achieving a perfect facsimile of something that happened decades before you were born! If you've already decided on the pinnacle, there is no point in continuing. The sensible thing to do would be to hole oneself up in an acoustically perfect room with some audiophile-approved gear and listen to Blonde on Blonde, Pet Sounds, Pepper, and the like ad infinitum.

But everyone has his own golden age. And a lot of it isn't based on the quality of music, but the coincidence of the year of his birth and the place where he spent his teenage years.

There are people who consider the likes of Television, Clash, Talking Heads, and other late 70s/early '80s music the golden era; or '70s soul/funk, like Stevie Wonder, Sly, James Brown, Marvin Gaye, and Curtis Mayfield; or maybe late-80s heavy metal, like classic Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, etc; or the chart-dominating 80s genre-spanning pop of Madonna, Prince, or Michael Jackson; or maybe early '90s grunge...you get the point.

You (or people of your generation, or people of any other opinion and generation--I really don't mean offense here or mean to point you out) don't matter to the things that don't connect with you. It's fine if I don't get Tyler the Creator or care where Early is. They don't care that I don't care--but someone cares, deeply, even as he wonders who this Run-DMC his parents liked was, and why his grandma goes on about Stevie Wonder, and his great grandma about Mahalia Jackson. Pop is a cult of youth. We grow up with our pop of choice, but we (and those acts) are constantly replaced. It's no big deal. And it all happens separate from the quality of each new offering, with every batch partly gawd-awful, largely mediocre, and thank goodness sometimes represented by brilliance. There are always talented people doing wonderful things that will last--you just have to let enough time pass for them to prove it.

You can hold on to a golden age that is gone, buying reissues and complaining, while golden ages are going on all around you all the time for others. It's fine to say it isn't your thing, but it seems a sad way to live to me.

That went longer than I thought. Sorry, I guess I had a rant in me.

I Like you guys, you are sharp as tacks. I don't take your comments as mean spririted
or offensive in any way. In fact I agree with much of what all three of you have said.

Luther I  like the bit about, you have to let enough time go by to let some of today's
artists prove that their stuff will stand the test of time. Which one of you said that
bit about todays writers will eventually be hallowed like some of the Brill building
tunesmiths of yesteryear.

Look I agree every era has some great artists. And yes I am dismissive of certain
types of music like hip hop. I am sure there are a few great tracks, but here's my point.

Some forms of music are more inherently better than others. Classical music, baroque,
ragtime, jazz. blues. and in my mind I include the greats of the pop era, Beatles, Brian Wilson
as the Chopins or Beethoven of their time.


I agree music must evolve and it would be stagnant to just keep trying to copy the Beatles
or Neil Young or whoever.

Certain idioms are better than others. They are also best when done by the best people
I have a fairly broad range of what I consider potentially great, from Elvis, to Gershwin, to the Beatles
to Brian Wilson to Led Zeppelin. I Like Weezer a bit (I shamefully admit) and Amy Winehouse is great
Oasis is ok, I hear new groups I like from time to time. I need more time to learn about them and I
am a busy guy.

Far from putting Brian Wilson and THe Beatles on a pedestal, I have been waiting years, decades
to hear somebody good enough to knock them off and blow me away. It's not my fault that no one
has come along and taken the crown away from them. And you need to see that I am not an island.
The only reason the Beatles remasters on ITUNES broke all those records for sales with 40-50 year
old music, is because many people agree with me. I'd love to hear something, anything fresh that was
as moving to me as the Beatles or Brian Wilson or the WHO or Pink Floyd. But in the opinion of many
NO one arpound today has demonstrated that level of excellence.

Van Halen, Michael Jackson, Madonna, NIrvana Nine Inch Nails, Oasis, Lady Ga Ga, Marilyn Manson  None of them are that great I
hate to be the one to break it to you, they are just run of the mill.I do like some of todays acts better
than all those mediocre acts. Kid Rock isint it. Nickelback drech, I have heard such mediocre stuff the last
20 years, That is whats turned me off, not being closed minded. But yeah I should learn more about
some of the younger groups. THey must be better than the ones I just mentioned

I Like you guys you make good points maybe we will all learn something

It might be worth noting that the things you say you like from more recent decades are things that sound like the music you've already decided is the best. So with that in mind, I think it's safe to say you're not going to find anything to knock the classics off their pedestal: your mind is made up. (Not calling you intentionally closed-minded, mind you. Just saying you're human.) What I must take umbrage with is that "some forms of music are more inherently better than others." I'd give you that some require more training than others; I'd give you that they serve different purposes than one another. But not that some are better than others. And what's more, your list of what is better than others seems--unless I'm missing something--to say that more or less all music that has achieved any sort of popular acclaim in Western culture up until your pop period of choice is what is inherently better, and the pop (and notably hip hop, and then hip-hop inspired pop, as most popular music is now) that comes after is what is inherently worse.

Last time I said that, I was lying. But now I'm not. Since my last posts here, I have done bass and two guitar parts and aux perc part. Guitar solo (yeehaw) next, some vox, and a quick mix. Hope to have a version posted here within about an hour, hour and a half tops. We'll see if I keep it going.

Happy Holiday Luther. Now I'm gonna break it down for ya once and for all. Just because I am a nice guy.


If you force feed people a SH^T sandwich long enough some people will start to like it. This is what paved
the way for the destruction of the music industry as we knew it, along with piracy and changes in technology,

At first you had some urban kids, who mostly couldn't play an instrument, but they had a sense of rhythm and
a message about their lives. Not a message of peace, or just angst or rocknroll, but a message of car jacking, abusing
chicks, racial hatred, and admiring gangsters,these kids had their anger and desperation and money for an engineer
who could operate a drum machine, while they went--papa pow pow . It was cheap to produce and created a new market
of disenfranchised urban youth..a new ghetto music. The record companies said this is great! and cranked as much of it out
at low cost as much as they could. We were no longer in the realm of Mrs Robinson, Good Vibrations or B.B. King
we were in the era of dirty nasty rap by people who don't even play an instrument..then it began to get more sophisticated
with more overdubs and samples. and session musicians.

Kid Rock, Lady Ga Ga et al are the children of that horrible segment of music history, and they have incorporated it
into their new pop. Much as Las Vegas (created by the mob) incorporated  family theme parks to go along with their
gaming (lose your house, break your legs) entertainment (Prostitutes on every corner) and neighborhood business (slot machines in safeway)

The good musicians began to incorporate this in their songs and playing--the hip hoppy rappy influence,  and we have todays
music Greenday at one extreme and some hip hop nightmare on the other wing.

You say I am closed minded, and  that inherently a Lady Gaga is a peer in terms of talent or artistic merit
with   John Lennon or Brian Wilson or Oscar Peterson or George Gershwin.

I say if you play Sh^t Sandwich on the radio long enough, people start to eat them and like it.

Green Day = Pink Floyd in terms of artistic merit?  I don't think so Luther.

Kid Rock = John Lennon in ability ? I don't think so.

But there are great artisrts in any era, this is also the era of the chick, for and I love Amy Winehouse
and Lucinda Williams to name two.


Kid Rock = David Cassidy 40 years later (sorry David for the insult)

Lady Ga Ga = Madonna 2

If you don't see how that is inferior in substance and creativity to Good Vibrations and Strawberry Fields
I need a smarter more articulate person to advocate my point of view.


Now lets get a pizza and spin some cool jazz or rocknroll! Happy Holiday!

Said it before and will again, we couldn't have more opposite views. Though you do see to choose some absolutely atrocious music to represent modernity. Maybe that's your problem. Anyway, I'd say happy holiday but I don't give a f*** about 'em. So just happy day.

I bet you they won't.

The thing about music from 50s through to The Beatles is that it vigorously shook up mainstream culture. The reason why people reacted so severely to the music (from either outright hate campaigns to outright orgasmic screaming in concert halls) is because the product was disruptive, important, and completely unheard of and unexpected. There is a long tradition of this, incidentally. The first public showing of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring caused a riot in 1913. Now compare that to the kind of reaction that Bon Iver is getting. To his credit, he may have caused a riot amongst crickets at one point. I think part of the problem is that The Sex Pistols effectively put the nail in the coffin for rock music but no one seemed to really get the message. More over, the hip hop scene has been treading water since the early 90s back when songs like "Cop Killer" actually was a source of public debate. Unfortunately, there won't be much rock or R&B music that will be important today until musicians confront what it actually means to be important.

@rocknroll
Do you reckon The Beatles, Elvis, or anyone else operating in that timeframe, had notions of 'importance'?

They were young people, who did whatever they could in order to get heard. Dylan would be an ideal balance to this, if he didn't completely renounce any higher notions of what his music was while he was making it. They were young people hungry for the oppurtunity to make music, and yes, shitloads of cash. I didn't reference Bon Iver as an example of that. He hasn't had a hit, and I know that. I referenced the young, popular, successful songwriters of the day. Who, because they are such, will be canonised as such. Like Leiber & Stoller, Goffin & King, Holland-Dozier Holland, and all your other songwriting teams.

In case you haven't noticed, teenagers go crazy for Justin Beiber nowadays. and the same teenagers who went apeshit when The Beatles got off the plane turn around and call them idiots. I call them hypocrites.

As for you, vintagemusic, Luther's right. There is a world of modern music you simply do not see. I think, charitably, you are out of touch. John Lennon wasn't that freakin' great a songwriter. And what the hell is wrong with Madonna? A smarter, more articulate person probably wouldn't share your POV, as you seem to have only a glancing knowledge about any music written after 1977.

And I don't like your point about 'chick music', you freakin' moron. That I am willing to get angry about.

Important in the way that I'm talking about it? Absolutely. Do you honestly believe that they were not aware of the cultural implications of the music they were listening to in the 50s?

The Beatles most certainly understood that they were part of an extremely rebellious movement. You might as well ask Marlon Brando and James Dean if they were aware that they happened to be doing anything counter-cultural.


Yes, but that has nothing to do with what I was saying whatsoever.


What do you mean by "higher notions"? In fact, it shows how respectable folk music was in comparison to rock and roll when you see just how much Dylan's switch to an electric sound caused such remarkable hatred and anger - again, this is simply a reaction you wouldn't see today at all because rock and roll is pretty much dead as a relevant genre.


To a degree. I mean, his 2010 album made about two and half million dollars in the US. The Beatles in 1964 made over 25 million. In that sense, to compare the reaction to Bieber and the Beatles is, I think, grossly misunderstanding what The Beatles actually accomplished. To be fair to you, this happens all the time. Every five years or so, there's another flash in the pan who sells about 10% of the records that The Beatles sold in one year and it causes people to make absurd comparisons. So, this is nothing new but it's completely unconvincing.

Furthermore, I urge you to youtube a few videos of live Justin Bieber shows. The audience does go crazy when he comes out and then basically remain rather subdued during his performances (at least compared to live Beatles shows in the US). And, again, there's good reasons for this. The Beatles happened to come to popularity after a particularly drab period and fans were in many ways acting out the aggression that had been held back. Furthermore, nobody had really seen anything like them before. Bieber, unfortunately, has not walked into that same history and he is merely a carbon copy of hundreds of acts in the last decade, some of which happen to hit and some of which don't.


Well, I'm not sure who you are talking about but you can see a difference, right? The Beatles did belong to a particular tradition and a particular culture and, consequently, what they were doing was much more genuine than Bieber who has been constructed by a corporation to specifically garner precisely the kind of calculated attention that he has been getting. The music is made not because of any particular creative impulse, but because a record company wants to make money from a bunch of middle-class teenagers. Bieber is simply filling a role. Again, to say that Bieber is simply doing what The Beatles did is just not simply understanding the historical relevance of The Beatles.

Hypehat, to your credit, you are direct if misguided. You play a little mandolin and guitar, and crow about "John Lennon
wasn't that freakin great a songwriter" I suppose in your mind you and Madonna are his equals or superiors in the
recording studio. How nice it must be for you, to construct that world. I would say you shouldn't begin your insults with
the phrase "to be charitable"  it might be more accurate if you say, "I'm half in the bag right now" and the "freakin"
makes you sound like some working class grouser from Wisconsin or Chicago getting ready to down eight hot dogs
before you record another "demo". As for as your jibe about me being out of touch with music since 1977, well its true
I'd been involved in a few hit records by about that time, and I still plug away making music for love if not a lot of money.
But I'm a "Moron" in your view, and I suppose you are what ? A genius in your own mind ?, the block policeman? A great
artist of wisdom breaking it down for the senile and rest home set?

Your'e a half in the bag cyber bully Hypehat, and you have an opinion like everybody else.You have some musical talent
and you think it gives you a right to throw dirty elbows and call people morons, if they disagree. I grew up in music, made a living
in music, had some fun, learned some things. In my view we live in a time where rock music or popular music is in a less creative or
prolific place than it was 20 or 30 years ago. You certainly can disagree all you want. Disagreeing with you does not make people
morons, less intelligent than yourself. I've done a lot of things musically for a long while, probably more than you'll ever do, not in
my living room but in the real world of commerce and music.

When you say, "john lennon wasn't that freakin great of a songwriter" & "Whats wrong with Madonna" (as if she was a good songwriter or something)
when you say those things, you impeach yourself as credible more than I ever could.

There are a lot of people Hypehat who are nifty with a musical instrument, guitar , piano whatever, but they don't even have
the ability to distinguish a great piece of work or talent from some assembly line drech formulated in a business office by some
coked out, or money hungry exceutives trying to cash in on a trend. If you lack the ability to distinguish between greatness and Madonna.
How can anyone ever help you..

I'll send you a mirror so when you blow smoke up your own A$$, you'll be able to see what your'e doing. Fair enough hotshot.

LOL. WTF.

Just because a record company isn't spoon-feeding us good music doesn't mean good music isn't out there. I agree with what Luther said: every age is its own golden age...it just depends on how we define 'gold' and where we look for it.

BTW, congrats on having your hand in some hit records...this point really added a lot of credibility to your post. Well, I'm heading back to my living room to create non-commercial/non-real-world music.

???
Ok, sir. I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about.

Especially 'chick music'. Which you dodged in a really ineloquent manner. Tell me, in no uncertain terms, what 'chick' music is, you sexist douche, and then we can talk music. PM me it if you want, so we can stop ruining this thread.

rocknroll, I'll get some coffee and get back to you, right? We should try and drag this back to more civilised discussion... ;D

Hey, rocknroll.

I'm really not sure they were. Like, it would seem The Beatles only ever wanted to be famous, in the beginning. Their other advances seem to be more ascribed to getting bigger, different and weirder sounds, although the political element is of concern - Revolution #1, etc. I guess it's difficult to ascribe and think about political and sociological motivations for musicians in a time so different to our own.

I think the point that they were trying to just make records does hold up! Like, all you read about in Beatles or Elvis bios is that all they ever wanted was to be on the radio in the first place. Elvis just wanted to make gospel records for his mum, and eventually did! Stuff like that. I really don't reckon Elvis was thinking about his music in terms of cultural impact, it seems a remarkably detached way to approach a insane situation of Beatlemania/whatever. They never really stopped wanting hits, which would seem counterintuitive to any other agenda than the popstar one. Although John tried (or at least admitted to in hardly measured interviews, like the 71 Wenner one) to use his more barbed stuff as a dig at cultural aspects, you are right.

Dylan is interesting - I am of the opinion that he just made music he wanted to make, like his early records show an imitation, quickly blossoming into mastery, of the Guthrie/Folkways stuff he really loved, but his own artistic voice pushed him into ditching the lyrical style completely (even by Hard Rain) and then going electric. I was mostly referring to his toying of the presses reaction. Of course, loving that sort of music gives your stuff an inherent political edge, and Dylan certainly didn't shy from that initially. His sheer denial of political aspects to it in later life is very interesting, though. But trying to figure out Dylan might be a fools game.

You're absolutely right in that pop music (or indeed, any music) seems to lack that disruptive influence now. Which is a shame, really, but not necessarily its fault, and i'm not sure what i'd blame for that being the case. I'm no sociologist. But the mindset was so unbelievably different in the late 50's-60's, and I don't profess to understand it really, but it's definitely gone. Nowadays there's no sort of mystery to pop culture, and nothing much forbidden - kids are freer to do as they please now than they ever were. Like I said before, i really think we could be on the edge of something weird and exciting thanks to this. I have no idea what, though. Nothings ending.

I think reports of the death of the record industry are greatly exaggerated, although any faults in it are mostly it's own short-sighted ones, like completely screwing up its reaction to download culture until somewhat recently. It's not like people aren't buying records and stuff, but the games changing. I used Beiber as a symbol, really, then anything I have more than a fleeting experience with. Gaga maybe more so. My friends went to see her not so long  ago and apparently people were going insane throughout. The love for popstars never really goes, obviously, but any cultural significance is dissipated. Perhaps the internet just means you can bitch about it on some messageboard and venting that way as opposed to getting really mad and breaking windows, idk...

That's all i really have time for on my lunch break, though. dammit.  I like wondering where this crazy thing called pop is going.  :)

Ok, well, to be honest, this is really all I'm saying except to add that being disruptive in this way is what makes you relevant and keeps whatever artistic field you're working in alive and kicking. And to be honest, I don't think that rock and roll has the capacity to do this anymore. This is something that black music culture has  often been more aware of - there was really no earth shattering movement in white pop like rap in the 80s.

So, yeah, this is really my point but I can address other issues you raise too.


I think that this is can only really be said in retrospect - unless we have different ideas of when "the beginning" was. The fact is that when the Beatles were playing in music clubs, the only really famous rock and roll artists were from the United States. I can't imagine that four guys with a perpetually shifting drummer, forced to play covers in strip clubs in a foreign country, truly believed that they were going to be first British rock and roll band ever to be really famous. Maybe it's because of my literary background, but throughout history you will find many marginalized groups (women, colonized) who quite simply believed that they couldn't write because nobody before them had. And I would imagine that the same can be said for British bands in the 50s and early 60s. And if you watch those early interviews you'll see that there was a prevailing notion amongst the band that even after they had a hit or two, it was only a matter of time before the bubble would burst because there was simply not a history of lasting pop acts at that time. Again, in retrospect, we could say that the band were fulfilling their dreams of being huge, but I can't imagine that such a thought would have occurred to them at the time.

Even if it did (and that's a big IF), this isn't really my point. Yes, The Beatles probably wanted to be successful musicians but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. If you just look at some of the Anthology interviews, you will see Ringo talking about going to see a movie (a movie, no less!) about rock and roll and seeing the movie crowd tear the theatre apart. You have other interviews where the guys talk about being taken off the stage specifically because they were playing rock and roll. You can't actually experience those things and not have the vaguest clue that you were taking part in something that was culturally significant.


Well, I'm not really talking about those kind of politics. Walter Benjamin, one of the most important Marxist critics, says that political messages are trivial - that's not where real political work is done. I think one could plausibly argue that "I Want to Hold Your Hand" is a hell of a lot more political than "Revolution #1" (a song whose message of ambivalence is apolitical if anything).


So when cameras refused to shoot him below the waist, or when audience laughed at his voice and his dancing, you don't think he ever contemplated why? When there was a massive anti-rock and roll campaign throughout the 50s and he was at the forefront of the genre, you don't think he was aware of what was going on?


I've never heard him deny the political aspects of his music. In fact, quite the contrary. In 1966 when Dylan basically toured from concert hall to concert hall in England just to get booed on a nightly basis, a reporter asked him why he wasn't writing political songs anymore and Dylan replied that "All my songs are political." And, in fact, he was exactly right. If by singing "Leopard Skin Pill Box Hat" causes a crowd of people to nearly riot, then you are certainly doing something political.


Absolutely it's gone - which is why you can't be disruptive in the same ways. Chuck Berry understood quite well that he wasn't going to rile things up by writing in the style of Stravinsky.

But it's not as if this discussion is relegated to the 50s and 60s. The Sex Pistols basically did the same thing in the late 70s. Public Enemy did the same thing in the late 80s. Importantly though, both of these groups were part of a scene. It's not as if they were just individual bands who happen to make it really big. They were at the forefront of new and exciting genres of music that challenged the status quo. Punk music for example showed just how respectable rock and roll music had become. And, to be honest, I don't think that it is impossible for something as disruptive to happen again but it hasn't happened for quite a long time, mostly because artists now are more content to tread water than to make waves (I hate that metaphor).


I've heard people make argument for Gaga, but from my perspective, she is on the cusp of things that Bowie accomplished nearly 40 years ago.

You are right that the love for popstars never really goes but you were talking about canonization earlier and one of my points is that being successful is not merely what gets you canonized. The reason why Leiber/Stoller, Lennon/McCartney etc. are canonized was because they were part of a movement that actively challenged the status quo and in doing so, actively re-shaped culture. I can't see what artists today are really accomplishing those things.

Was in the mood to revisit a song I wrote about 10-11 years ago, but never had a decent recording of. Sadly, after a couple acoustic guitar tracks, I brought out the ol' banjo ... which was a cheap piece of trash to begin with, and it doesn't wear its years well. Got frustrated in that I can't so much as move my arm or tune one string without something else going well off. The whole damn thing is like one big whammy bar. So ... we'll see. Maybe I'll use the uke for what I was thinking of using the banjo on. Or something. I don't know. For now, you don't get "Not So Pretty." And it's the banjo's fault.

"The era of the chick" was a reference on my part, an observation that Women singer songwriters, & recording artists have come more to the forefront
in greater numbers and percentages, than in past eras of popular music. That in fact, many of the best and most promoted singer songwriters, and what many
promoters, record companies and producers covet more than in the past, are female artists.That female artists (perhaps deservedly so) now command a bigger
slice of the music pie. Wheras before there was the occasional success story of Chrissy Hynde or Carol King, nowadays there is a much larger percentage of women
with all the well rounded chops as singers, songwriters, musicans, producers,. This would therefore impact the traditional male singer songwriter in a negative way
because there are less spots on the roster available. Not unlike other professions where women have made inroads in recent decades. Which again may be a great thing, or not, but it is not a good thing for males trying to popularize "their music" when the number of available slots has decreased. So in summary, just as popular music had the disco era, or the grunge era, I see the current musical climate as being largely an era for female artists. Some of whom I think are great by the way. My two personal favorites are Lucinda Williams and Amy Winehouse.

'Perhaps deservedly so'? Nice. I'm not even going to try and dissect that. How condescending can you get?

The 'traditional' male singer-songwriter really deserves to die off. Neil Young, early Bob, and yes, John Lennon have a LOT to answer for. A guitar does not necessarily denote that your feelings are worth writing down, or putting to music  ;D

How goes the track, Luther?

And rocknroll, i never seem to get the time to write a response. Will do soon, I promise!

Haven't touched it since then. But I am going to log off from work in a few minutes, will take a quick walk down the block to buy some wine, and will get back to it. I've kicked around a few ideas the past day or so since the initial burst. The thing is, it's not one of my songs I'd consider particularly good. Just kind of returned to mind, all of a sudden, so I figured, why not?

Aaaaand ... done. Posting momentarily.

Doing a bit of recording this afternoon--the last of my ready-to-do (i.e. Adam's drumming in place) tunes. The thing is, while I still like the song, I am rethinking some lyrics and never did have a full arrangement in mind. This one was never more than an acoustic guitar and voice before now. It's countryish, and so I am thinking about what I can do with banjo and piano. But first I need to relearn it, in that I think I did the demo about 3 years ago and can't recall having played it since. I found the chords I had jotted down in a notebook, but it's a messy sheet of paper indeed, clearly written down as I was writing the tune. Lots of words and chords crossed out, no real coherence to what I'm looking at. Ah, the glory of organization ... must be nice.

Another thing that makes home recording so fun: out-of-tune piano and a banjo so crappy that the joint of body and neck serves as a makeshift whammy bar--a guy has to be awfully careful about any pressure applied to the body or it's not-always-intentional pitch-shifting. Somehow I think Tom Waits would make a masterwork out of this stuff ... but me, I just get out-of-tune tracks and a little cranky.

My creative process appears to run by the tenets of Murphy's Law. Spend 2 months with all my equipment, instruments, and recording gear - don't write. visit home for week with only my guitar - I magically start WRITING SONGS! and can't record them! grrr.

Have also been falling very behind with my score work - recent adventures, however, entail recording demos with friends after several bottles of wine for songs with Shakespeare's lyrics, a piece of music that had to 'sound flutey' and be danced to by someone who doesn't exist yet, and also for shits and giggles started recording covers with a friend of mine. Stormy Weather, Lonesome Town, a coupla Marliyn songs....

But my prior musical project ground to a halt - my friend (who i'm now recording the covers with) just stopped writing story. maybe i should pick up the reins....

Same here! Usually I'll get a melody in my head while driving, working (back then), dropping a deuce...man...just like when I can't do anything about it :lol

No lie, I cannot tell you how many songs I've "written" while on a walk. That is the perfect time for me. The problem, of course, is I am out walking. I have sung (either in my head or out loud) so many things! First a little fragment, til I am sure I recall it. Then a line or two. Then more, then more. Sometimes I feel like whatever I get home and get on paper with is close to what I started with. Other times I am convinced I lost some masterpiece (which of course isn't ever true, but if the BBs taught us anything, it is that you can mythologize the unfinished). Sitting down with guitar or piano? That's not conducive to writing, now is it?

That's why I keep a flip, camera, cellphone, or ipad with me at all times.

Actually, garageband on the ipad has been a blast for me lately - I can write melodies, record sample vocals, play piano on the go - and when I get home I can record it properly on Logic.

My music career has hit a standstill lately. I have several instrumentals waiting for lyrics and vocals. And in the hiatus I have gotten less and less creative in what I record/write. Ahh well, as I've been learning for the last four years: waves of creativity come and go - and you never know when you'll hit the next wave.

I think that is totally true. And as long as it doesn't matter (e.g., you don't depend on it for an income), it certainly isn't worth worrying about.

This link leads to am mp3 download that is a quick rough mix of the instrumental track of the song I'm working on now. I think I have the bulk of the track work done, but unusually for me don't have lyrics yet. I had a version of this song years ago but I don't like those lyrics anymore. So I need to rewrite, or at least rework. Here is the kind-of country rock "Perfect Plan." Mostly really straight-forward, but there are a couple left-turn chord choices and awkward-length phrases here and there, just to keep it interesting. http://www.sendspace.com/file/a4bqfh

I think I'm going to do another of the three (four if you count the little instrumental interlude) "Artist" songs today, of which a few weeks ago I did the final ("Last Artist..."). The one I'm going to work on now is the first of the bunch. Seems like a good way to spend the rest of the morning. Hopefully I'll whip through it and have something posted no later than early afternoon. It's going to be pretty basic, depending on where I go with (background) vocals, if anywhere.

Veering dangerously off topic but that is one brilliant signature you have there! 

Oh, so they're a series? Look forward to it.

My creativity has dropped off something fierce. Recently phoned in another few songs for a score which were pretty dreadful, just exercises in arranging more than anything. And one prologue where the directors instructions were so incoherent I ended up sampling the Beatles. But don't tell anyone - her musical knowledge is so limited she didn't know ;)

Man, I hate writing lyrics. Have had a few good chord sequences lately that I just couldn't work up the energy to write lyrics for. This wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have that aforementioned project all good to go bar the songs... dammit.

^^Thanks John K! I love that mix of Kubrick/Lennon genius!
_____

I've virtually quit music at the moment. Between lack of good material, bandmates not working out, etc, etc, etc....it's a tough road to travel, and I just got sick of it.

Actually, I am working on a 'Wonderful' type song - with chords that aren't used too much, and some made up. I can't wait to finish that. Also going to record a cover of Sloop John B I think...but other than that I've given up.

I've been concentrating on writing - I've found there's a lot of room for freedom and expression in this field as apposed to songwriting. I've always felt limited by chords and the need for a melodic vocal (and a limited room for words)....with just plain writing there is no hindrance; and through written word you can create just as much of an emotion impact as a song. Just my opinion.

I know I'll go back to writing music on a more regular basis, I'm just tired of it for now.

Yeah, a series of three (plus instrumental bit) that some friends did years ago, when I was in college. (Mid-90s) I have always loved those songs, probably more than they do, and consider them mine, which of course is neither accurate nor fair. But there are My Friend the Dead Artist, instrumental piece which I've always called Artist Interlude, My Friend the Artist, and The Last Artist in a Series of 3 that I Know. The lyrics are so funny and cryptic in turns, and the music so immediate, I just adore these songs.

All art forms can be impactful, so I would by no means criticize someone for writing over songwriting. Actually, one of my favorite of my songs ("Falling Down") is mostly sentences and phrases taken from a short story I wrote. I had forgotten that until coming across a printout of the story last time I moved. But I think the emotional impact of words hinders those of the music just as much as the converse. It's about the writer/performer, and the listener. They both are hugely important, or both wouldn't continue to exist as art forms.

Very much agreed. I suppose it really depends on the artist himself - I'm just not in a creative spot at the moment. And your song 'Falling Down' is a great one! Love that chorus!

I can't wait to get inspired to record again. I really love it, but lately there's been so much BS surrounding it for me that it's too tiring. Ugh. What a shame.

Eh, don't worry about it. It always comes and goes--there's no use getting frustrated unless your livelihood depends on it.

True enough. :)

First time in--dunno, couple months?--I've sat down to write something wholly new. The past couple "new" things I've done were really rewrites or finishing up old pieces. Just did a couple sections (not sure what is what yet), with a bunch of lines. Really simple things but I think they're nice. Hopefully I'll keep at it and get something together from it soon.

Last time I wrote, I was optimistic ... but I've written nothing new to add to that fragment in the past six days or so. This, though, is that fragment, which I just put down to make sure I don't forget even that bit. Just piano and voice in the same one take, not intended to get a good sound or anything. No arrangement to speak of. After the two verses and one refrain (if that's what they end up being), I don't know what I'll do. This is an mp3 of it, anyway. http://www.sendspace.com/file/qrr3wm

I'm writing some new songs. Four or five are 80% or more done. I need to record them, yet.

That is all.

I was wondering what you were up to, Luther! Looking forward to hearing them, as always.

Have done one semi-successful score over Christmas, which was a mostly stripped down piano + glockenspiel and minimal accompaniment affair. I should upload it at some point. It's all little segues and things, though. But the chord sequences are interesting.

Have started writing songs with a friend, which now means my fairy tale project has all the songs written! Now I need to record the bastard.

Sadly, I have to magic up a score for a show which no-one will see, due to being situated in the middle of nowhere, and is apparently dreadful. Motivation is low. I have two weeks. So far, have been playing v basic chords and guessing string arrangements. I almost resent the fact no-one seems to grasp the difference between the stuff I slave over writing unique and odd chords and arrangements for and me, idk, going I-IV-V. But they are no musicians, and it's a fairly minor gripe. I should focus on writing the former all the time, I guess  ::)

New songs in the works again. I'm getting together at least rough versions of things to decide what to have drums done on and fully flesh out. The recent ones are contenders, but I have tons of old stuff, and these new ones too. One of them is really Ben Foldsy in a spot ... or maybe not. It feels like it to me, but I can imagine that ending up some sort of Randy Newman Sail Away / Mt Vernon - Fairytale kind of association someday... (Not in terms of quality or fame, mind you. But in terms of what i thought I was doing or hearing or being inspired by turning out to be just useful context to do something otherwise entirely different.)

Another brand new one begun today, with two or four verses done (depending on how I define them, I guess), plus refrain, plus the chord structure for a third section. Writing on acoustic guitar.

I don't have a lot to contribute, but I like this thread so I'll just use it as a brief diary for now.

I'm staying at my parents until work takes me on the road again. I find it very hard to work earnestly on writing songs when I don't have my private space to meet the needs of my unusual work habits.  I'm aware of the notion that if you want to write, you just sit and write -- no excuses. Nevertheless, I seem to get distracted or lose patience frequently. Guess I'll have to work on my self-discipline.

The stuff I have worked on in my sporadic bouts of productivity seemed promising. I picked up Marty Robbins' Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs and I love it! The simplicity of the songs and storytelling, but it's very rich in emotion and full in sound even though the arrangements are also simple. Anyway, this inspired me to write a few songs in a certain theme. Not a concept album or anything. But the idea of capturing a scene and telling a story in song had never interested me before, but it kind of does now. When it turns into something, I will share it.

Have been at home for a few days, so instead of recording am trying to mix something 'just so' and it's getting to be a bother.

Also, asking non-musicians for musical opinions - worth the hassle? My best friend isn't really musical, but she's always taken an interest in what I do so have been sending her mixes and things. She says strange things about them...

I ask my non-musical brother for his opinion on occasion. Most of the time I have to really reach in order to make some sense out of his feedback, but usually there's something to it.

The thing is tho, everyone has different opinions, so at the end of the day I figure it comes down to whether or not you're happy with what you've done.

I also find that a lot of times I have to NOT listen to something I just worked on for a few days in order to really evaluate where I'm at with the project. You can get so involved with a song that you start losing sight of where it stands exactly. After a few days, or a few weeks, it becomes very clear to me what needs to be fixed / replaced, etc.

So, yeah man I definitely know where you're coming from. Feel free to shoot me a copy of the mix if you want any feedback / mixing ideas.

I wanna say yes. I value the opinions of non-musicians much more a lot of the time. But I guess I don't like many of my musician friends, or I'm familiar with their work so it provides a context for the basis of their opinion. The ideal is to get the opinions from anonymous strangers -- they'll be honest, and you don't know them at all to take the opinions personally.

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish, I guess. Impressing yourself, impressing musicians, or impressing "regular people." If you're writing music for general enjoyment (e.g. pop music), I'd say non-musicians are the best people to ask.

I was just listening to Bonnie Prince Billy--for whom I have very "hey, that's entirely acceptable and unexcitingly pleasant" feelings--and somehow came away thinking I ought to write a song. So I did, right in that vibe. I expect it will be entirely acceptable and unexcitingly pleasant. But hey, a song's a song (and it came really quickly, like 20 minutes...I'm like BW doing God Only Knows, only minus the quality). I'm going to really quickly record an acoustic-and-voice version and post it.

And here it is: Too Many Notes. (Just rough--VERY rough!--acoustic guitar and a couple voices. Three, actually.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/1bao1v

I really like it! It's got a nice folk-feel to it.

Ok, so I suck at mixing.

I'll mix a song to perfection on my studio headphones, then I'll listen to it on iPod headphones and the song will sound like utter rubbish.

Does anyone have any suggestions (whether referring me to youtube how-tos, or just a few pointers)? I'm using Logic Pro 9 and I'm trying to master/mix a song and it's not going well.

Wish I could help, but I am afflicted with a similar problem.... Taking a step back is always valuable, and I tend to find I go overboard in the recording process anyway, so I always end up taking stuff out.

In other news, I am finally back with all my instruments so have started recording again! Just did the tiny introductory bit to my album yesterday, now on to the next big song.... after a couple of cigarettes and a cup of coffee  ;)

Ditto. Anyone who has ever listened to my mixes knows that my combination of uninformed/unskilled and lazy just isn't a good one. I guess for me the best results tend to come from reiterations, not only new mixes but sometimes even re-recordings. I just have to live with things a while.

btw, I am hoping to really get into gear and do some of the recent demos and/or other unfinished things. A friend is going to handle drums and I'll go from there. No target dates yet, but probably half a dozen "finished" tunes by mid July. I have to whittle down the list, though. I think the only sure things are Cognitive Dissonance, Keep it Simple, and All That I Want. Then there are probably 8-10 more (one or two of which aren't even demo'd) serious candidates for the final few spots.

Does anyone here use synth drums? How do you find it works? I don't think I'm skilled enough to make them sound anything like real drums.

What program are you using?

I use Logic Pro 9, the drum machine plug-in is fairly good. If you tweak the EQ and reverb you can get fairly real sounding drums (and it really takes no skill at all).

I'm using Acid Pro 6 - not sure how good it is but it works well for what I do. I will work on the EQ and reverb. Thanks so much for the tips!

In terms of VST instruments, I use Native Instrument's Battery.... But I torrented it. If you have no problems with that sort of thing, the sounds are great/infinitely tweakable.

Bah, think I need to go to the doctor and sort my right ear - either that or I'm going deaf in it. All my mixes seem to be veering over to the left. As does all the music I seem to  be listening to today. Humbug.

In other news, I woke up from a nap today to find  my house deserted, so I celebrated by recording a cover of Heart Like A Wheel and covering in atonal  noise and effects. Because I know how to rock my Saturday nights, motherfuckas

Debrox first, then the doctor.

Yeah, mixing can be like opening a can of worms. The group I'm in consist of four guys and all of us have our views of the do's and dont's when it comes to mixing - which means that whenever we record a song the f..... mixing proces tends to take way longer than recording the song & the vocals, because everyone of us always insist of changing little things. It can go on and on before we all can agree on a mix. We're currently in that very process with our most recent track as I write this. ;D

So, if nothing else, appreciate the fact that you only have to take your own mixing taste into consideration.

So I am borrowing a flatmates bass for all of these songs.....


I now have huge blisters on my fingers. I will never, ever, ever belittle any bass player ever again.

I do the same thing, it's mostly about the bass and volume, which are all preference of the people who buy the headphones

Mixing should not be a democratic process. Have a production meeting, take notes, suggestions, etc. and designate someone in the group as Mix Down Producer and mix away. Or find a mixing engineer/producer and have that person mix it along with someone from the band.  Don’t allow anyone else in the room while mixing.

After a solid afternoons recording, I think I am the ghost of Phil Spector's talent. Should probably leave the house....  :lol

I agree.

And perhaps the point I wanted to make in my post was a little unclear - it's not as if we sit four guys around a computer mixing together. One of the other guys in the group always comes up with a proposed master mix based on our original ideas for the song's overall sound and feel. When his idea of a finished mix is done he passes it on to the rest of us for a bit of feedback.  We might then come up with a couple of suggestions, usually adjusting the volume on various parts or vocals. And it's this part of the process that can take some time with ideas for little tweakings flying back and forth. I'd say that it's worth it though with a better end result where we all feel we've had a say.

I'm stuck on a song, which is the worst feeling for me. Obviously the best is when it comes easily, but I don't mind having nothing at all, either. But right now I'm working through that half-done moment where I have a chord progression I really like, a 3-section tune that goes from a haunted to a sweeping, momentum-building vibe, really dancing around keys and built on highly extended chords. I really like it.

But I can't finish it. What I have now, I've had for about two months. I've got melodies I'm maybe 75% happy with and lyrics for about a quarter of it...and I don't like them much anyway. I usually feel like it's easy to find the song in the music, but this is one of those where the music doesn't want to become a song. Ugh.

Such is life.

I just finished the score for my latest show. I think it's the 9th one I've done in about two years, 11 if you count more abstract things. I'm really proud of some of it - lots of new techniques, innovations, better sounds, more complex arranging than I've ever done, all of that. But I think I might have just made my difficult second album.... The inspiration was not there. Sigh.

I want to have time to focus on my own stuff as well. I need a cohort to start a band, but my musical taste is a bit of an outlier with people I know and most of them aren't musicians. And I'm absolutely shite on a stage by myself. Again, sigh.

I might just abandon that song for now. Today I was thinking: I should write a song for each school-year of my life. I was telling a story about 5th grade today, and realized I already have one for 3rd and one for 6th. May as well keep going!

Some days, you just can't mix.

Finally added instrumentation to a song I did a year ago, which was just guitar/voices. Can't get it to work, not because the new parts are shite, but just because i can't get them to sit right with the original vocals. This is going to be one of those things where I prefer the original demo, regardless of what I actually want to do with the song, isn't it?  ;D

In the shower before work, I thought of two measures to add to a song I've been working on. Two measures. Just something to go from verse to some other section. Sadly, I've been so stuck, I was excited about it. A little chromatic riff into a relative minor. Big whoop.

That's a bigger deal than you make it out to be. I can't even play a note or chord of music, but I've "written" several songs just by hearing melodies in my head. Sometimes, one little idea turns into a whole song. Or, a little idea, as in your case, adds a little certain something to a song.

Yeah, I do that all the time. Mostly when I'm out and about, which is frustrating as I can barely remember it by the time i get home.

Reckon I've got a mix of the tune I mentioned yesterday. Although I'm considering doing a Murry and speeding it up a wee bit so it sounds a bit brighter/faster, I seem to prefer it that way. Let's see.

Don't mistake me, that is a normal way for me to "write" music--many, many of my songs were conceived and largely worked out while I've been on walks, for example. My frustration is the slowness in ideas lately, so that this tiny idea felt so good.

Feel you on that - haven't written a song this year, hence covers, scores, and dusting off old material. Gotta keep myself sharp for when the eureka moment appears.

A little fucking around on the guitar while "working from home" today and I had an idea. Hour and a half later, I've got the ideas down, anyway. Check the Luther thread.

Another boost of ambition today, which was nice. This was a tune I've had probably 85-90% of done since ... June? Quite a while, anyway. I just hadn't ever committed to what was there. Knowing I could tinker forever, I figured I may as well commit a rough outline of it to "tape." So I did--very hasty arrangement, a couple word changes here and there, and a once-through performance, more or less. I intend to work on it more fully soon. Check the Luther thread for a download, if you want it. But it definitely feels nice to get moving. I think the motivation was company coming in less than two hours: suddenly I wanted to do something unproductive for that goal, like "ooh, get it done FAST because you need to shower, prep dinner, etc."

Trying to meld the songs I've written into a 12 or 13 song demo tape of sorts (if you can call my obscene brand of over-production a 'demo') isn't fun. I have a list a mile long of mistakes I need to correct , and that's just of mixes I've already done - I'm already toying with re-recording two of my songs in different styles (one due to a rushed arrangement that is nonsensical and cluttered, the other because it was just a demo).

Also, even if I did remove all my rubbish from them, I still don't reckon I'm the kind of artist 95% of labels would be interested in signing. I don't play live, I make elaborately produced pop songs because I hate being a sensitive dude with an acoustic guitar and can't really sing. It's a ridiculous situation. I feel quite anachronistic next to all this modern music I like, sometimes.

Gripe, gripe. Maybe I just need to dig myself.

I think labels are the last thing you should worry about. If you're not a touring act (or often even if you are) or a non-reality show winner, the best hope is to put your music out there and push it however you can. If it gets noticed, better support will follow. But the days of labels taking interest in artists up-front dead and dying.

I thought that too, but a mate of mine has been signed to Columbia and received a Brit award in the past two years, so it just makes me feel like I'm slacking/lacking the right stuff. I can't seem to shake it, really.

I've gotta write a song about this. And I can tell you the opening chords right now: Fsus4 --> F(b5).

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/magazine/the-professor-the-bikini-model-and-the-suitcase-full-of-trouble.html?hp&_r=0

(Edited because--WHOOPS--forgot to add the link the first time. D'oh.)

Thems nice chords.

I have been laid up with a fucking dreadful cough/sore throat/fever thing all week. Inspiration and mood at all time low. Send help.

Last time I was sick, I did a (shitty) little song about being sick, Holed Up Inside. Though I actually did like the refrain, so maybe it wasn't a total waste.

I jotted down a few thoughts for that song based on the NYT story. Here is a quick recording, not even using real recording software, just QuickTime. Ended up using an A- (sus2) instead of that F(b5).

http://www.sendspace.com/file/eq9hvg

Keep in mind the stories of acts "getting signed" to a label and actually being successful are far, far less the norm than acts who got signed and ended up getting screwed over, or having their label indefinitely shelve or ignore their music for a myriad of reasons including finances, inner-circle politics, and a general wealth of slimeball tactics.

Getting signed means essentially the same thing today as walking into a bank and signing for a loan. You need to pay it back, and paying it back means you're lining someone else's pockets who has no talent and little or no interest in you beyond how much money your work can make for them.

Fortunately in 2013 the entire game has changed. On a weekly basis I read media releases from artists performing in my area who had been signed to a major label and *could not wait* to get out of the contract, for reasons listed above.

Again, the examples of success are out there but are far outnumbered by the artists who worked hard and poured a lot of soul and life into their music only to see it pissed away by the failings of a label.

I'd suggest looking into songwriting and perhaps getting your original music demoed and then shopped around. In the US at least, Nashville is the epicenter of that scene, for better or worse, but going that route on some level might be a better tact than looking to get signed by playing clubs or whatever.

If the vocals are a weakness, try to find a local singer to work with and cut your demos. If you do get what feels like a good demo recorded, find someone tuned into what kind of songs are being sold in today's market and ask if they'd lend a critical ear, and take in the criticisms and compliments to perhaps improve or enhance the song so it stands a better chance of getting picked up. If you hear a certain instrument which you can't play, ask around for someone who can play it and have them on the recording. And don't settle for close friends or associates out of loyalty if they cannot deliver the performance or skill you're looking for on your demo.

Aiming for a major label deal is fine as an option but not necessarily as much of a requirement in 2013 as it was 20 years ago, and ultimately if you do sign the papers with a major and get locked into a deal where either the label folds, your contract becomes a nightmare of touring and whatnot to pay back the loan they gave you, or if your person at the label takes another job, it's a bad scene. And that becomes the case much more often than the dreams of signing a deal and having everything work out.

Even the whole "American Idol" thing...after an initial burst of promotions, industry backing and ass-kissing, and getting a radio hit, where are the majority of those performers now? And we're talking about acts that got signed and entered into the full promotional machine of the record and media biz, not some random chap who got discovered on YouTube.

Seriously, look into shopping well-crafted song demos to the folks that need and use such things.

(Aside...if I hear another TV ad jingle that sounds like the White Stripes "We're Going To Be Friends", I'm going to be ill. However, think of those anonymous songwriters who did those knockoffs getting a pretty decent paycheck because an agency wanted the "feel" or sound of jack White's tune but didn't want to pay Jack White's price to use his tune. There seriously is a cottage industry for shopping soundalike recordings like that.)

 ;D

Well said, sir.

(the entire post, I mean)

Hype- if you are concerned at all about the sound of the demos, maybe I can help...

This might show my ignorance to some of you more technically oriented or audiophile types, but frankly, that's ok with me. I'm sure there are others on my level, so...

As I've written before, I'm a bit of a ... not quite luddite, but timid simpleton, maybe? when it comes to the technical side of recording. I've never so much as taken a class, and even when a friend (who got his doctorate in composition with a focus in the use of the modern studio) used to try to educate me, frankly I glazed over and waited for him to tell me we were rolling. So my recordings are basically done with that level of "expertise." I f*** around a little with things I don't understand, but my true palette is pretty small.

Today I came across a podcast by a guy named Joe Gilder of Home Studio Corner called "Ask Joe" that I've really enjoyed. It's geared toward musicians with home studios, and (as the title hints) is just a series of questions and answers. I am on my third episode and find his perspective to be more musical than technical, and very conversational, not overly techie. If this sort of thing seems appealing to you, check it out!

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/home-studio-corner/id358731231?mt=2

Happy day: straightening up a bit (as my parents are to arrive shortly for a visit) and in a stack of papers on the lower shelf of my coffee table I found a couple sheets' worth of notes for a song I (partly) wrote about three and a half years ago. I never did finish it and still definitely have to work it out lyrically (not to mention arrange it), but I always loved the piano part and even was trying to recall it from memory recently--and failing miserably.

So hopefully I'll pay it some attention soon and finish it off.

It's yet another of what is looking like a large stack of songs needing drums, so I guess I need to start that whole process, too. Calling all drummers looking for a few hundred bucks...

Oh my god, that link. Do you mind if I steal it to write? The headline is a song in and of itself.

Isn't it great!? I'm beginning to think NYT weekend magazine is going to be my go-to inspiration, as a few months ago I got a song from there, too (Ikaria).

And obviously, if you get a song idea from it--write the song!

I am the King of Fragments. Bow before me!

OK, you don't have to. But yet again I was working on some new ideas but while the first bit came immediately--like within about 2 minutes--things stalled for the past hour or so and I just keep repeating this again and again and again and again... This is my 15 seconds' worth: http://www.sendspace.com/file/9tpt0y

Somebody out there, write the rest of the fucking song!

I finally wrote a fucking song this year!

I just demoed it, but you can't hear it as my head is full of cold and my voice sounds like ass. Although hopefully the lack of cigarettes due to aforementioned illness will do my voice favours, as I hear a kinda R&B vibe and want to push my voice a bit on it. Just have to wait...

Looking forward to it!

I really shouldn't go into town when in restless mood. Went in to buy some more guitar strings. Came back with a TWELVE STRING GUITAR.



Although it is the best thing ever and it didn't cost that much really (oh god) and I am in love.

Ha! I think we all can relate, though, to some extent or another.

Been writing! Yay!

Of course, not on the twelve string guitar (I haven't even recorded that yet) but using apps on my phone, creating loops and things. Got two things, both quite different - one an orchestral/harmony thing, the other electronica (although I'll probably throw tonnes of harmonies on it anyway to disguise the fact there isn't much of a tune underneath and that I just like the sounds I'm making). But yes, my creativity seems to have returned!

Very glad to hear it. Looking forward to whatever you work up.

I'm still in my recent phase of really, really fast ideas that I love, but then a brick wall in any attempts to finish them up.

i haven't done f*** in a while

I'm with you captain.  I've gone back and listened to around 900-1000 old voice notes from two or three past phones, saved the 400 or so that seem to have even a shred of potential, and now I'm going back through them to see what I can scrape up.  I've gotten one song out of it so far but there are a few more.  As for new material...not much.

If you find a way to break through let me know, though I suppose it's different for each person and each situation.

EoL

The new BW album had me thinking keyboards (beyond my beloved piano). So today I bought a Nord Electro 4 SW73.