The Smiley Smile Message Board

I wish everyone would get off Brian's sack long enough to admit that "Kokomo" is a classic pop song. You can pretend to hate on it all you want, but I have no shame in declaring my love for a worldwide smash, #1 hit.

Even Brian himself admitted it was a great song in Endless Harmony. He seemed to wish he could have been a part of it.

I like Kokomo too! It is the song that brought me into the Beach Boys World!

I really just don't get much of anything by the BB after (and possibly including) KTSA in 1980. I don't like the 85 album at all and can only handle Summer In Paradise if it's on in the background. "Kokomo" is an okay record and went to #1 for one week but it still sounds like 80's cheesy pop to me. And believe me, I am not a Brianista but I'll take his '88 album (at least certain songs like "Rio Grande", "Melt Away", "Baby Let Your Hair Grow Long" and "Let It Shine") over anything the BB's did as a creative unit after 1980. Except maybe "Chasin' The Sky" which is horribly overlooked.

For all its faults, it brought the band back to the attention of the public and showed them that a group of 40 somethings can still have a hit.

Without it would Mike and Bruce have the attendance they have? Who knows.

Not great. Good.

There's just something so appaulingly cheesy about it. The production is the biggest offender, obviously, but just the same - even the songwriting is incredibly cheesy, lyrics are incredibly cheesy, and Mike's vocal is somewhat offensive. Carl's part saves it from being a total loss.

That said, I don't hate it, although that could just be for nostalgia's sake.

But sorry, I'd never call it a "great song" or say I love it.

I agree.

Me too... trouble is that it was a good pop song, not a work of genius that we were still hoping and praying would come out of Camp BBs. And when they score with 'good', sans Brian, it reduces the chances of them every putting the effort into scoring with something 'great', with Brian. Take the point made in another thread that Brian being the be-all-and-end-all of the Beach Boys is part-Leaftopian thinking. But he's still -  even estranged all these years - the thing that made them tick.

I loved hearing Brian play it on piano in that one CBS doc. from the late 90s

Kokomo soared while Brian's solo album tanked.

Enjoy it everytime I hear it on the radio. Great song.

I know this. It troubles me but keep in mind that "Kokomo" was also featured in a hit Tom Cruise movie at the time whereas Brian's album wasn't promoted with a tour or even a single music video.

I don't hate "Kokomo". It is a "swell" tune. It's just not a "Rio Grande" slam.

Not good, but okay - and successful.

It is a great hit. It deserved the hit status. Everytime I hear it in a supermarket, I feel good.

It is not Cabinessence, nor Good Vibrations or God Only Knows.

But there are many, many sh*t hits. This is a good hit.

A good song and a deserved hit. Not a masterpiece but Carl's vocals are excellent, the lyrics are better than a lot of songs the band recorded and it is very catchy. Obviously being the soundtrack to Cocktail helped a lot in getting it to number one but the song's own merits played a big part too.

Brian's album wasn't that much of a flop was it? 400,000 copies I recall reading. And despite the fact that it DID get a lot of promotion, I don't think it's a big surprise that it didn't sell any better. The production isn't very good and there isn't anything on the album that could have been a hit imo. Not a massive hit anyway. I do think it's a pretty good album but, like most of the stuff that Brian did after pulling back, not that commercial.

Look I love all the Beach Boys, I think 90 percent of Sweet Insanity is worse then it but I agree strongly with the above. It's not the Beach Boys worst song but they have between 150-200 songs that I like better. They are just so poorly represented here.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

It was helped by the fact that it was used in a very successful movie.

But it really isn't bad, as pop songs go. It sounds and feels quite  a bit like the Beach Boys...you feel good and think about sunny places when you hear it.

Sure, examine it and it's no Good Vibrations....its a few steps back...but it really isn't bad.

Mike should be proud of it....but I wish he didn't always have to shout "Hey Kokomo proves I can do it without Brian".

Mike's contribution to the song was limited - he came up with the "Aruba, Jamaica" riff. The rest of the song was written summer 1984 by Papa John & Scott Mackenzie

Given that, Mike's contribution would be slightly less than "Good Vibrations"? It's not that the Beach Boys were having a hit without Brian as much as they had a hit performing a John Phillips' song produced by Terry Melcher.

I was born in the mid-80's, and when I was growing up I knew Kokomo, but didn't know it was by the Beach Boys.

I had heard of the name The Beach Boys, but didn't connect the two until I decided to give the Beach Boys music a shot. It was kind of like, "Oh hey, I know that song."

At least for me, the "Aruba, Jamaica" riff AGD mentioned was by far the most memorable part of the song; until recently, I probably wouldn't have recognized the rest of the song! haha

For people my age, I think you could argue that it is the most well known (I didn't say best!) Beach Boys song. (I'm in the US).

It's a guilty pleasure. There, I've said it.  ;D

My take is that a lot of the malice directed at "Kokomo" stemmed (and still does) from the fact that they, and not Brian, had the hit.

I haven't seen that clip of Brian playing piano Kokomo, but I would bet that a new version with a production that's lighter on the cheese would cause the song to be taken more seriously. The sax solo especially screams 80's cheese. I like that melody though, and I can't think of another instrument that might replace it.

try a kazoo :p

I agree all around, pal-o-mine.

It's just that "Love and Mercy" would've been such a better song to hit #1...not that probable but a nice thought. Incidentally I like most of "Kokomo," except the "Aruba, Jamaica" bit...and did so BEFORE I knew Mike wrote that bit...so don't call me biased. I love Carl's section. "Kokomo" is distinctly an average song...in my opinion several of Brian's songs on BW88 slay it...

Said it numerous times before and I'll say it again, I really wish "Kokomo" would've been part of a Brian/Carl-produced BB album that featured most of the songs that eventually ended up on BW88 ("Rio Grande" included).

I do agree that Mike's lead vocal sounds kind of offensive or even creepy on "Kokomo". To me, however, that's part of the fun. It's a great song and I absolutely love both the percussion (despite the somewhat cheesy reverb) and the way the accordion sounds.

I think you can include Brian himself in that. He always appears to be upset that he wasn't on the record. Is it because of the quality of the track or the fact that it went to No. 1 - and he wasn't involved?

I really like the song, not just because it reminds me of some great summers I've had (that song dominates my local oldies station in the summertime), but just because it's a fun and catchy song. I'd still like it even if it wasn't released by the Beach Boys.

I don't think Brian ever quite believed the band's explanation as to why he wasn't on it - that is, Landy didn't pass the invite along.

Was their explanation true?

I have to say, I think it's a rotten song but that doesn't have anything to do with Brian's non-involvement - I think the Spanish version with him sucks too.  I just don't like any of John Philips' writing in that era and the 80's production style never suited the band.  I will say that Carl's chorus vocals are nice though.  His voice held up so wonderfully over the years.

Judging from past history, Brian should not doubt the band's intention. WHEN DIDN'T THE BAND WANT HIS PARTICIPATION?! I don't have to list all of the reasons how the band could benefit by having Brian Wilson associated with a record.

It's funny how it turned out, though, at least for Mike. By Brian not being there, and "Kokomo" being their biggest hit - ever - well, we know what Mike has to say about that. And it's ironic that he never intended it to be that way, without Brian that is.

I agree. Had no clue whether Brian was involved or not until a couple of years later and thought it was stinky anyway. La versión en español tambien.

SJS -- I think was around this time the band was becoming quite comfortable with not having Brian involved in sessions -- and not asking him. If you read the Carlin book, it's pretty clear that Carl didn't think much of latter-day Brian's songs or vocal ability. According to the book, the band also began to schedule sessions specifically at times that Brian was previously unavailable. I think Carl felt it was just easier -- and just as satisfying musically -- to not deal with Brian and his drama. And in a way, it's hard to disagree with that.

That being said, it's also impossible to discount Landy's ability to f*** things up royally ...

But it's an extremely sad view point---especially since Brian and Carl could have their moments together...mainly in front of cameras. Take the History of Rock and Roll segments, IJWMFTT or the Endless Summer acoustic segment. But basically they weren't functioning well together...

Pretty sad, if true.

The band could've excluded Brian around that specific "Kokomo" period (1988), but that would've been an extremely small window when they would've done it. In 1987, Brian sang on "Wipe Out", appeared in the video, and was invited to appear with the group in the "California Dreamin" video and on the Solid Gold TV appearance.  

In 1989, on the Still Cruisin' album, Brian sang on "Island Girl" and "Make It Big". Were those songs recorded in 1988? Also, is Carl on "In My Car"? And, when was the Spanish version of "Kokomo"(with Brian) recorded? There's also the 1989 TV series - with Brian sitting right next to Carl around the campfire, SINGING along. Was that series filmed in 1988?

It does seem a little impractical to schedule sessions when Brian was unavailable. How would they know? Did Brian even know when he was recording? :-D But, I can see them (Carl) recording the bulk of the tracks without Brian and then bringing him in, just to add his voice to the mix. But that's not excluding him. They'd basically been recording like that for the previous 20 years.

Some probably believe it's not hip to enjoy "Kokomo", while others such as myself view it as a guilty pleasure. Carl really makes the difference, as he did on "Good Timin'" and other later songs that are consistently critiqued.

It's catchy and I agree, Carl hits it.  The contrast of Mike and Carl works well.

I think many of us kinda despise it because Mike seems to always mention "Kokomo" in interviews and thrust it up there along side BB classics like GB and GOK.  "kokomo" was a catchy pop hit but not a BB classic.

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Seeing it's Xmas time and we are on a thread for "Kokomo", I wonder what everyone thinks of "Santa's Goin' To Kokomo" as it's on the new release 'JDRF's Hope for The Holidays'.

http://www.amazon.com/JDRFs-Hope-Holidays-Weezer/dp/samples/B002MT3BS0/ref=dp_tracks_all_1#disc_1

Brian's additions to all of the songs mentioned from Still Cruisin' are essentially cameos -- he's not part of the harmony blend, he just pops up on a tag or two. And I would assume that was for contractual reasons with Capitol. "In My Car" is a solo track that was sent along to Carl and Al for chorus vocals.

But I'm directly referring to Carlin -- (page 268 in the paperback) on the scheduling matters, which I agree sound peculiar, but who knows. It's from a letter Brian's lawyer wrote to the president of Brother in 1990, which also claims that Brian had twice offered to produce new Beach Boys albums in the late 80s, only to be rejected by the group both times. "This kind of treatment hurts me very much in my chest. It's obvious the boys don't want me," Brian's quoted as saying.

I personally give this letter credence (given the context of the time in group history) because it doesn't make any sense given Landy's ambitions for establishing Brian as a solo artist. It also wasn't in the form of a lawsuit or responding to some attempt to oust Landy. Brian seems to have been very hurt, for whatever reason, at this time, because he couldn't record or produce the guys he thought of as his group.

I don't think the BBs were unwilling to work with Brian -- which they clearly did throughout this time -- but they were not going to give him creative control, and they no longer considered themselves his group. (And rightly so -- they clearly weren't. Mike and Terry's bragging rights for Kokomo were fairly earned.) And I love Brian as much as the next guy, but the only reason he gripes about Kokomo is that it was a hit and he wasn't on it. He has as much of a primal business sense about hits as any former 60s rocker. I doubt he would care otherwise.

Not for me I just am not big fan of 80's pop. I admit I am into mainly muusic recorded before my 1976 birth and after my fathers 1951 arrivel.

The thing to remember is that they Beach Boys didn't mind working with Brian but nobody in or out of the group liked working with Landy. You couldn't seperate the two in 1988. That said Brian was on most of the 80's singles until Kokomo. East Meets West, Don't Worry Baby with the Everly Brothers, Wipe Out etc. I really believe the Beach Boys version. After all how rare is it to have Mike and Al tell the exact same story.

He's on some of the songs immediately afterwards too like the Spanish version of Kokomo and Island Girl and I don't really see why they would have excluded him from that particular song.

I hate the song...but I will admit it's pretty damn catchy. It was in my head for hours last night after I saw Stewie singing it on Famly Guy.

I don't doubt that Brian wanted to try to produce the group again in the mid/late 1980's, and I don't doubt the authenticity or sincerity of "the letter". However, there is a big difference between the group not wanting Brian to produce them or giving him major control, and specifically scheduling sessions when Brian wasn't available and not wanting to work with him. That was the specific issue I took/take exception with. I just don't think the guys would ever do that. I think we basically agree on the issue, Clay.
 
Going off-topic a little bit....I think the guys (including Mike) had been burned by Brian too many times with his questionable production - starting way back with Smiley Smile, but specifically the late 1970's. We all know about the final product which became 15 Big Ones, and, as brilliant as Love You is, that production could also be questioned. Then there is Brian taking a back seat with MIU, turning over the reigns to Bruce on L.A. Light Album, and his less than enthusiactic work on Keepin' The Summer Alive. How many chances did they want to give him?

I have no doubt that Carl and maybe others questioned Brian's competence after he emerged with/from Landy in 1982-83. One just had to look into his eyes or listen to him speak. As much as I would love to see Brian and Mike work together again, that - control - would be a major stumbling block. Brian's previous failures, his condition post-Landy, and the success of "Kokomo", changed everything.

I think the problem was not just Brian failing to deliver since 1976, but the general disillusionment of the band as a whole by 1988 that they were just throwing their arms up and saying "whatever", then recording what came to them. It IS ironic how in 1991, Michael was the only one who really wanted to do new music. Carl and Al were indifferent and Bruce was intent to just trade on the past glories every night. Brian was only recording because Landy was pushing him to.

I don't think that any one person can be singled out as the one to blame for Brian not participating in Kokomo. It was most likely just a comedy of errors. I do tend to believe the story that Landy was told by the band that they would be recording and he refused on Brian's part, but I can also believe that the band was sick of getting a bite in their collective asses every time Brian pledged to "do his best" since 1976 and then lose interest within days. Of course, the Landy situation didn't help matters, since as early as 1985, Carl and Michael were quite vocal about how they were rarely allowed to contact Brian due to Landy's overbearing control on him.

At the end of the day, if anyone knows the right answer, I'm sure Landy would be the person to ask. Since, however, he's food for the maggots now, we could always break out a Ouija board and ask him.

Yeah, SJS -- Funnily enough, I think that in some ways, if it were just up to Mike, Brian would have had a bigger role in the BB work of that era than he did. Mike has nearly always praised Brian's basic creative talents -- Carl stopped doing that after a point.

And there's no question Brian let the group down pretty spectacularly in the 70s. Not necessarily his fault or intention, but the BBs as they existed in the 70s and 80s could not legitimately be asked to put out album after album like Love You.

In some ways, Mike's attitude obscures the fact that I think he's still a little bit in awe of Brian. (And of course, he's not one to really directly state affection -- something like that can corrode multiple marriages, methinks.) Mike is a word guy and performer -- Brian has supplied him his bread and butter for decades. Carl was a musician who learned in a couple of years' time how to produce an almost exact approximation of Brian's instrumental and vocal style. I think he found Brian's refusal / inability to progress or mature as a songwriter disappointing and irksome.

Clay has arrived, finally, at the most basic truth that our friends in the THREAD don't seem to understand. Brian Wilson's biggest fan is none other than Michael Love. And Michael never was that way because Brian is his cousin.

Since Carl was Brian's baby brother, he probably looked up to him until 1966 or 67, only to find Brian slowly deteriorate into an overgrown child.  That MUST have been frustrating and disappointing. Carl had a lot on his shoulders, having two older brothers who had such problems, and then having to deal with infighting on top of that. I can understand if he just said, "Why should we call Brian just because we're recording a new song, when Brian has been so difficult" and thinking Brian shouldn't have it both ways.  On the other hand, I can understand Brian's disappointment at being left out, if that was the case. He had written all those songs that made the Beach Boys what they were, and then he wasn't even being included. So I see it both ways.

To put it into Brian Wilson terms, if Good Vibrations is a steak, then Kokomo is a Big Mac. You might enjoy both, but GV is of undoubtedly higher quality.
I like the chorus and Carl's part of Kokomo, but find that Mike's voice is creepy. Also, the sax solo grates on my ears. Another thing is the effect on the BBs reputation for a whole generation. Suppose the Beatles reformed in the 80s and recorded a song written by Paul McCartney and Mick Jagger, and it was a cheesy 80s song and it became a monster hit and eclipsed the rest of the Beatles' catalog for a whole generation. And let's say it was a bigger hit than even Hey Jude. Wouldn't that be annoying?

But, I will always believe, even to this day, that they (all of the guys) would want Brian there - even in his damaged and difficult state - because they never knew when he might come up with something brilliant, whether it be a song, an arrangement, a chord, or a note....

RBB -- I wouldn't go that far. Nice try.

I think Mike does like Brian's work, but his own perspective (often a commercial one) and personality limit how he expresses it. I think he also wildly overestimates his importance and talents as a writer.

Mike is in many ways unfortunately a member of the Wilson family. If he were just a friend who collaborated with BW in the 60s, we might all see him as another Usher or something. Instead, he was put in the middle of family psychodrama that continues to this day. I think he's often handled himself shabbily, but no one is blameless in this history, as everyone acknowledges.

I'd say he still looked up to him until 1971. The passion he puts into the production...and more importantly the singing in Sunflower bears that out. On Friends I think he very much deferred to Brian's leadership...and the result was a classic. I think it was in 71 and more importantly by 72 when Bri's decline via cocaine use was evident it started to wane. Having said that, I do think he threw himself into Love You fully and completely...he was VERY important to that album's success (if you dislike the album say 'completion' instead of 'success').

When discussing how Carl felt about Brian, I think you have to differentiate between Brian the man and Brian the musician. I don't even wanna know what Carl thought of Brian the man, but I think he respected Brian the musician right up to the very end. There is a later interview/article in Musician magazine where Carl says something to the effect that any future Beach Boys' album would be crap without Brian producing. However, that article might've been before Landy fried Brian's brain.

Kokomo hit big due to the movie connection and promotion  PLUS, to the casual fan who had not followed the band for years, it was like surfin usa, inviting one and all to a summer of fantasy, fun in the sun, and escape to a laundry list of cool beach scenes.  AND, it was a grown up version, for those 30 somethings who could afford exotic island fantasy vacations.  It pushed the right buttons at the right time., with the right cross section of listeners.

Hard core fans resented this simplistic redigesting of the beachboys.  But it worked just like it worked in the days of surfin usa.  And don't forget this all dovetailed nicely with the huge buffet parrothead thing happening around the same time.

Truly; sh*t happens!

I think you hit the nail on the head. Brian had the final say until 1971 or so. They may have disliked certain songs, but while Depser was working for them everything else was dropped when Brian wanted to do something. Putting Surf's Up on the LP of the same name seems to be the first major act that went against Brian's wishes. Carl has said he first noticed something was really wrong as far as hard drugs went during the So Tough sessions. That was the beginning of the real decline.

Still Carl at least still tried to support Brian for a while in the studio. In 1976 Carl talked of going home in frustration during one 15 Big Ones session and then coming back and working because it was for Brian. After Landy came back a second time he made things so unpleasant that I don't think Carl was willing to defer to Brian anymore.

I think all you have to know about how Carl felt about Brian as a musician in the 90s can be summed up in two points.

1.) He quashed the Paley sessions as a BB album. They would have potentially been a great album, make no mistake.

2.) He refused to do a tour of Pet Sounds because he thought Brian couldn't sing the songs.

I think both of those are the actions of someone who just has no confidence in his brother's abilities anymore -- in the studio or out of it.

Don't forget the sessions for Keepin' The Summer Alive - at least a couple of days of them - when Carl excitedly proclaimed that Brian was "singing like a bird" and was "back, he was all right there in the room". Carl really got behind (I think) "Oh Darlin", "and "Goin' On". He also appeared pretty happy (with Brian?) in the Goin' Platinum documentary and the 20/20 segment. And, of course, it was Carl who spearheaded the second Landy intervention to save Brian.

I guess what's strange about Carl during the last ten years or so of his life is that he wasn't fully behind his brother anymore. It seems so out of character looking at some of that late 70's footage SJS brought up.

I think Carl's decisions were understandable even if people can debate whether they were right or wrong...

The Paley Sessions had potential but Bruce has said that the sessions were underwhelming in every way which indicates that it certainly wasn't just about Carl disliking the material. We know that Brian wrote little of Soul Searchin and the fact that he had to bring Joe Thomas in a little later shows that he wasn't up to producing on his own either. GIOMH shows that he still isn't... So having to hire another producer further complicated things and the very difficult time the band members had had over the previous few years meant that understandably the band went into it willingly rather than enthusiastically.

As far as Pet Sounds goes, if Brian had rejoined The BBs on stage then would it have been well received? Debatable. An awful lot of the good responses that Brian has had from his shows have come from the fact that nobody expected to see him play live solo shows at all and that people want to commend him for being a genius with the work he did in the 60s. His band are also deservedly praised but, being honest, Brian is the least impressive performer at his shows. His voice is very limited and, despite the good will that so many have for Brian, a lot of the reviews that I read after PS Live was released commented on how his voice was very weak in places and that some of the live versions didn't come close to the originals.  Any BBs shows wouldn't have had quite the same hype and there is a possibility that the reviews would have been less kind to Brian.

I think that Carl was a very troubled, tortured soul. Perhaps more than his brother's, because he was so private. I think that in the 10 or so years of his life, there were things going on in Carl's head that not even his own children and wives knew about. I am going to go one step further, and say something that will probably get me crucified. I think that Carl Wilson was afraid of losing his mental capacities. He saw what happened to Brian, and he saw it literally KILL his other brother. I think that in a way, Carl was scared to death to get to close to Brian, for fear of actually turning into Brian. Whew....what a heavy thought. Maybe this needs it's own topic.

Or it could just be that Brian hadn't been really competent on stage or in the studio with the BBs for several decades so it was only natural the other guys would be wary about him. Let's not forget that when the BBs worked with Status Quo and Rick Parfitt told Brian how great it was to meet him, Brian responded with a confused, 'Who are you?'. With the other band members seeing things like that and a million other similar incidents over the years, it's not surprising that they were unsure of Brian.

I admire this line of reasoning. Carl was smart. He might very well have known in general what sorts of mental disorders Brian had/has, and also some inkling about the heriditary aspects of these ailments. I can see Carl posing hypothetical questions to himself, that Dennis and Brian were incapable of. Like:

'why are the three of us all battling severe addictions?'
'what effects did our upbringing have on our adult lives?'
'will I develop problems similar to those of Brian?'

...and keeping this to himself, quenching their sadness and fearfulness with drugs and alcohol.

I think that Carl was a very troubled, tortured soul. Perhaps more than his brother's, because he was so private. I think that in the 10 or so years of his life, there were things going on in Carl's head that not even his own children and wives knew about. I am going to go one step further, and say something that will probably get me crucified. I think that Carl Wilson was afraid of losing his mental capacities. He saw what happened to Brian, and he saw it literally KILL his other brother. I think that in a way, Carl was scared to death to get to close to Brian, for fear of actually turning into Brian. Whew....what a heavy thought. Maybe this needs it's own topic.
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I'm not sure I agree that Carl was afraid of losing his mental capacities. I think he understood that he was a very different person from Brian. That said, I think there's something to your statement that Carl was a troubled soul. After all, he grew up in the Wilson household too. I think Brian, Dennis, Carl, AND Mike are/were also troubled in their own way--after all, they're all equally Wilsons, and there's a history in that family. But different personalities have different responses to a dysfunctional situation. Carl seemed to have been one of those non-confrontational people who bottled things up. There's a reason so many people called him an angel. I'm believe he was indeed a very kind person, but I also think he was one of those people who didn't want any trouble, so he was less likely to state his true feelings when he was unhappy or resentful about something and therefore was seen as a selfless angel. I know a lot of people like that-- kind and good for sure, but clearly also wanting to avoid trouble by not stating their true feelings. Carl probably DID have serious problems with Brian and Dennis, even though he loved them. Who wouldn't?

I think Carl had really lost his sense of perspective in the mid-90s.

If Brian had been allowed to produce a BB album with Andy Paley (which is what he wanted to do), possibly with Don Was along, the quality of the Paley material (much of which was self-consciously retro, so certainly in line with Love's aims) would have led to an excellent, well-received disc. A world changer? Nah. But the market (and record companies) were ready for it, especially after the one-two punch of OCA and IJWMFTT bringing Brian's name back into the media.

I don't think there was ever any notion that Brian would do it "on his own" -- and maybe that was the problem. Brian would have produced any BB album with someone else. And the group wanted serious say in that process.

As for Pet Sounds live, you could have easily given Brian just a couple of featured spots. His performances of Pet Sounds on his own were revelatory -- and there's no reason to think he couldn't have done his spot on Sloop Jon B along with IJWMFTT and Caroline, No. And if it had been done after the release of the sessions box, it would have been a huge deal.

Carl at that point (and possibly it was his own health, too) just didn't want to deal Brian as boss anymore. Especially after Carl had worked his buns off for decades on the road.

And Carl's own musical judgment really lapsed. If you listen to Beckley-Lamm-Wilson, two things are clear. One, Carl could still sing exquisitely, and two, his songs were awful. Not incompetent, just heartbreakingly generic. This was not a man to be passing a sentence on the Wilson-Paley material.

I agree on every point 100%...maybe even a little more than that.

I also would like to restate a point that many have made re:Carl. He had the voice of an angel, had a great heart, loved his fans and was fully committed to the group. But he moved closer and closer to acting like Mike as time marched on (I'd say post 1985)...he let Mike have his way possibly way too many times and just let all of his previously creative notions fall by the wayside.

A couple of things for perspective's sake: Carl never got over losing Dennis, he was still sensitive on the subject many years after Denny's passing. He was also very, very concerned about Brian. The whole business with Landy was a painful experience for Carl, and it left lingering aftereffects in the brothers' relationship once Landy was out of the picture.

I think it's fair to say that after Landy, Carl became more interested with and concerned about Brian as a person than as a creative partner. And that makes sense. He was his brother. It seems Carl thought it would be healthier to separate their personal relationship from their musical / business one. And that makes sense, too.

All this makes me think of Carl when he was sick, and how he must have felt once he knew that he didn't have much time left. In addition to his concerns about his wife, the band, etc., he must have been very concerned about Brian's future, knowing that Brian had already lost one brother and had so many emotional issues.

Whoa, I think we should all leave such deep down insights into Carl's soul to those who actually knew the guy! And let's try and not forget that after all the hassles these guys had been through, the ups, the downs, ect. that at the end of the day a 50something year old Carl might have simply wanted to live an enjoyable life. And being locked in the studio as one of Brian's musical tools might not have been how he wanted to spend his days and nights. And yeah, after all the effort he'd put into establishing the Boys as a progressive/vibrant live act in the 70's, and stuggling with his own substance problems.... maybe he'd simply had enough.... Maybe the Beach Boys at that point were just a fun (for the most part) day job. And why the heck not? They were already a legendary band. What's there to lose? So Carl goes out and plays some show full of hits, gets paid and goes home to his family. Not a bad life for a guy who's already put more physical emotional and mental effort into being an artist for more man-hours than any of us could ever comprehend.

Brian had no lack of venom for Carl in the mid-90s, even going so far as calling Carl an asshole.

I also remember him complaining that Audree used to talk about how great Carl was all the time and Brian was like "Ok, so Carl's so great, go hang out with Carl and quit talking about it"  I wish I could recall where I read that, but I remember it distincly! But that all sonds like typical family/sibling stuff.... which all this REALLY is, when we get down to it.

Didn't he call VDP a butthole too?  I'm glad Brian broke out and designated the buttholes.  Good for the soul.  I always say.

Brian seems to attract the buttholes...he just never seemed to turn his fine-tuned sense of butthole-sniffing on himself. :)

Shall I bend over now or later before I get buttfucked by the Brianistas for saying that? :)

My take: Brian never meant to call anyone a butthole, much less VDP and Carl. But he did it. He used SSRI medication back then, and does so nowadays. I dare place a safe bet on him having used alcohol on the side. It's well known that SSRIs and alcohol lead to disinhibition. You tend to vent anything that crops up in your mind, and don't have much grasp of what you actually are saying, and what impact it might have on others.

BTW: I dare place another bet: SSRIs are sometimes in the spotlight for their adverse side effects. I'd think that in many cases observed, secret co-use of alcohol was the damaging factor.

I was a fucking monster when I was on those things - I did and said some pretty bad things, luckily most people were forgiving.

I also gained 60 pounds (which I've had a hell of a time trying to get off), picked up some really bad/odd habits for me (which I've managed to drop, thankfully) and my usually sharp memory was extremely dulled. I have very few real memories of the year 2007, I basically lost a year - it's awesome.

Would not surprise me if Brian was on some bad stuff back then, so it would not surprise me if they didn't make things worse.

It's funny what the censors don't pick up.

Don't worry, I'll tell my brethren to go easy. They might even use jelly!

Brian is still on an SSRI -- luvox. He probably is kept away from alcohol, though.

I'd guess he is. I read a few interviews in which he opens a can of Heineken, and refuses to drink more than one ('just the one', he said). So he might be strong enough himself to impose a limit and respect it.

The borderline diabetes is probably a contributary factor as well.

This post might have hit a little to close to home. Do you think Carl felt guilty for having to die? I mean, in the last month or so of his life. He knew Brian was a very fragile person, and he knew that Brian would be the last one left.

I didn't mean to offend anyone with my post. I can in no way know Carl's thoughts and feelings for sure, but I just couldn't help but empathize a bit with the situation, because I think anyone who was terminally ill and leaving behind a fragile loved one would have those concerns. And no one would have predicted that Brian would be the brother who lived the longest by far.

That's my take too.  And to go even further, I'd say that if Brian had been included on the song, even in a vocals-only capacity, the song would be regarded far more highly by BB fans.

I think that a lot of the "hate" for Kokomo is due to the simple fact that a song like that actually became a hit.

Exactly. It annoys me that people think that represents the talent of the group. I also wouldn't hate it as much if I hadn't had to hear 10,000 times. I still don't like it regardless though. Brian being on it wouldn't matter to me, I dislike a lot of Beach Boys 1985 just as much and he's on there. I mean if you were talking pre 1975 Brian singing on it maybe I would feel different.

That's not exactly what I meant. I meant to say that I think it's the "hard core" fans that hate it, just because it became a hit. Forever, Slip On Through, Surf's Up....those are all obvious hits in the eyes of TRUE fans. But Kokomo of all things became the hit. I think the fans of AGD's stature(just as an example, no offense) resent Kokomo, because it's a "typical 80's song", and for the fact that a hit for The Beach Boys came so late in the game, so to speak.

Speakng as the husband of someone who has been on various SSRIs, I know sometimes they can have pretty drastic effects which most certainly are made worse by significant alcohol consumption. Fortunatley for myself and my wife things are very stable with her current medication.

As for Brian, somebody asked him during the first SMiLE tour if he still takes drugs. I remember the answer was...

'Yeah! I take my medicine and sometimes after a concert I have a beer'

I expect that's about right. Brian takes whatever pills he's on these days, by and large they do him good. And sometimes he enjoys a small beer. Probably for the best.

Agreed.

If Dennis had been alive and sung lead people woulda been creamin' themselves.  He wasn't; he didn't; it's an okay song from a once great band who lost their way over ten years earlier.

Let the man have his one beer. But, Brian, why Heineken? For a guy with his kind of money, that's so...meh.

The Brianistas should pool their spare change together and buy him a case of the real stuff.  ;D

I agree.  It's a matter of drinkability! ;D  On a related note, "Kokomo" is all about listenability (or rather lack thereof) for me rather than who does or doesn't appear on it.  :)

Yes, there's Carlsberg, Giraf, Grolsch, Orangeboom, Brand.......... ad infinitum. :smokin


Brian has good taste and doesn't have to impress anyone. Nothing wrong with a nice cold one from the Low Countries.

I think Carlsberg would be very appropriate for him - or maybe Bruce County Wild.  As a tribute to Denny, he could drink some San Miguel.  And let's not forget Mike's Hard Lemonade.

I can't remember if they had a bar or served drinks at the Beach Boys Cafe in Hermosa Beach! But if they did, they just HAD to have a "Kokomo" cocktail!

Perhaps some Mike's Hard Lemonaid w some gin and grenadine.... or something!

They also should've served a "Brian Wilson special" .... Huge steak with a side of cigarettes and an urn of coffee!

And an entire birthday cake for dessert, naturally.

Don't forget the can of whipped cream ........ hhhmmmmm ....... gotta love those flourocarbons, straight from the can to the back of the throat!

But not before an entire loaf of bread for breakfast!

and in honor of Dennis they could have a "crash a rental car" ride out back!!!!

Orangeboom beer, dreadful.  Newcastle Brown Ale, now you're talking.

But do you know how many calories are in a single bottle of Newcastle???

I think Brian needs to stick with Orangeboom!

Didn't even know Oranjeboom still existed, haven't seen or drank it in years. Not that I want to, during my years as a student many described it as (literally translated) "owl's pee"

Carlsberg is not Dutch btw. And Giraf? Never heard of that one.

Grolsch... now you're talking!

I am a 'Korbinian' man myself. I never calculated the calories, for fear of getting a heart attack from the number.

I am doing well, thank you.

Hacker Pshorre and Hoegaarden are my two faves. Lindman's various Lambics are great too.

Both wonderful.

I love how this "Kokomo" thread has morphed into a discussion of everyone's favorite beers - it somehow seems very appropriate!

As a non-alcohol drinker, I can't contribute too much...but I do love my soda pop.



"Carbonated fluids overflow..."

from "Seven's Up" - The Belch Boys

C'mon...if Brian drinks enough of the good stuff, maybe we can talk him into bringing back the bathrobe on stage. That would be fantastic.

"Didn't even know Oranjeboom still existed, haven't seen or drank it in years. Not that I want to, during my years as a student many described it as (literally translated) "owl's pee"

Yeah! You can get a six pack of Oranjeboom in pint cans at Trader Joes for about $4!!!!

Pretty good for owl's pee!

On weekdays, I stick to Euroshopper, the house brand of supermarket Albert Heijn, see picture:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/EuroshopperBier.jpg)

It does have its critics, but in fact it's a great thirst quencher without hangovers. It is ridiculously cheap: 40 Eurocents for a 0.5 liter can. It is what the Brits like to call: 'tramp juice'.

I think that real quality beer every day diminishes the experience (apart from a higher price point). So I love my German and Belgian beers on weekends. Never during daytime, by the way. After one glass before sunset I am completely incapable, and get a bit irritated after the first brief high.

So: I vote for Euroshopper (also: eternal winner of the worst graphics on the can/bottle, it's all fake wherever you look). And you can learn modern Greek, Finnish, and other languages from all Euroshopper product packaging too... it's an all-round winner, coolest brew in the world!

game set match  ;D

(http://i46.tinypic.com/11uw940.jpg)      (http://i48.tinypic.com/sfjjh1.jpg)


11,6% by the way

Hey, we got cheap, ugly packaged Euroshopper products in Sweden too, but no beer!

...as the woman said to Jack Nicholson in 'About Schmidt': 'You poor, poor man.....'

I already knew that from your postings.