The Smiley Smile Message Board

This seems to be a major factor in drawing in new fans to the music of the Beach Boys. As i've been studying his songs and productions i've become a little more wary of the big "G" title he's often given.

Brian said that he himself was only a hard working guy. Murry said his son wasn't a genius, but very close to one. (Though i'm not sure where the proximity to genius, and just immense talent and work exchange).

What do you think?

What has made you more wary of calling Brian the G word?

I think just about any sense of the word includes Brian (Merriam-Webster: "extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity"). I use it seldom, however, because it's cliche. About any musician who uses more than three chords and has recorded a concept - y album has been called a genius.

Yes he was.

Read this before you make up your mind:

http://www.cabinessence.net/essays/FinalThesis[1].doc

Not sure the link works like this...might have to do it the long way.

Cab site - writings - BW Genius or Hard-Working guy.

I would say Brian was definately a genius.  He was also a very hard working guy.  The difference is, no matter how hard some people work, they never could have pulled off some of the stuff he did... and some of the creative ideas he came up with were nothing short of inspired.  So without getting too technical and just speaking on what my gist of the word 'genius' is... basically Brian had a extra spark that made him unique, and for that reason I have no problem calling him a genius.  I would throw that word at the best in practically any field.  Bill Gates I would call a genius.  Whoever invented "Pac-Man" I would consider a genius.  Etc. 

BTW, Brian and Murray have been quoted as saying several different things about Brian being a genius.  Murray said "I'm a genius too, Brian" on those bootlegs, didn't he?  And in an interview they played on XM radio a few weeks ago, Brian said that he loved hearing people call him a genius, it makes him feel appreciated.  So I think you get a different story from him (like everything) depending on what day of the week you ask him. 

Genius. Nobody but a genius could come up with the melodies and arrangements (vocal and instrumental) that he came up with, and nobody but a genius could have produced the incredible tracks he produced. All you have to do to know he's a genius is listen to "Bycycle Rider." Only a genius could write that melody. It's SOOOOOOO simplistic, as is the chord progression, yet it's one of the most beautiful, wonderful, wholesome things on this earth. And if you aren't convinced after listening to "Roll Plymouth Rock," just go listen to "Radio King Dom"...

That just means he's humble/modest.  If he was walking around
calling himself a genius, he'd be as annoying as Kanye West.

Brian Wilson IS a musical genius!

I'll give you Brian Wilson's genius in a nutshell: listen to the intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice"- especially the single heavy beat.  Who else would have done that- or done anything half as good?  People go through whole careers without an idea that good.  But Brian had ideas that good every day for years and occasionally still does.

Give that song to 100 producers and 99 of them would have played the same standard intro that Brian shot down in the session.  That's the difference between an artist and a craftsman, but when it reaches the level and the frequency that Brian reached it's pure genius.

Listen to the vocal arrangement on "Can't Wait Too Long".  Is that just hard work?  How come nobody else could ever do it?

"Genius is looking at something everyone else sees and seeing something no one else saw."

Can't remember who said it, but substitute "listening" and "hears" for "looking" and "sees", etc. and you get Brian.

Trying to sum someone up in one word is a sure way to misunderstand him or her, I think.

This thread is too much like the old "Is Brian crazy?" thread. Oversimplified, too many connotations people take from the word, etc. Doesn't matter.

I slightly disagree.  I think it's a reasonable question.

Listen to "Brian Wilson Presents 'Smile'".  Try to imagine songs like that coming out of anybody else.  Then ask yourself if Brian is a genius - the question is obvious.

Who cares?

Brian isn't a genius. He didn't invent the wheel or come up with the theory of relativity. He just made a lot of good music. Hard workin' guy.

So then since you won't extend genius to the musical world, Beethoven was not a genius, correct?  Mozart?  Bach?  You don't have to be a scientist to be a genius, in my opinion. 

Brian isn't in the same league as Beethoven, Mozart, or Bach, I'm afraid. Just my opinion.

"Brian isn't in the same league as Beethoven, Mozart, or Bach, I'm afraid."

Honestly, I´m not so sure about that. Brian CAN be as good as them, and I´m very aware what that means. Just listen to "God Only Knows", "Our Prayer", "Mrs O'Learys Cow" or "Wonderful". How can anyone write BETTER music than this? Maybe different. Or more complex. But not better.

I'm sorry our opinions differ, but Brian's music doesn't move me like Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, or even Chopin. They have a bigger and better claim to the genius tag than Brian does, in my opinion. I don't care what all the fans or David Leaf has to say. Brian is not a genius, and he's NOT in the same league as the aforementioned composers. Brian's greatness is based on roughly 5 years of material, these composers were great for 20, 30, 40 years.

If so, those 5 years touched more musicians and more normal folks' hearts then any other songwriter..  Good luck finding another musician with this much critical respect.  He's a living legend that changed things, changed how people created music, and influenced a couple generations now.  He was original and unique and the stories of his ability from friends and co-workers, to pick up notes and write and arrange..  nothing to be "afraid" about.. the guy is a gem.

I don´t think that "genuis" is about the lenght of a career. If Beethoven would have written only the 9th and nothing else, wouldn´t he still be a genuis?

And I have to say that "Til I Die" or "Surfer Girl" moves me more than anything Bach or Beethoven ever did. (I don´t mention Mozart, because his Requiem KILLS!)

Maybe the term "genuis" is about how many people agree on the greatness. I guess in the end it´s all about opinions.

Who cares about critical respect? Really, who gives a flying f*** what the critics think? Doesn't the music stand up on its own?

You're not telling me anything I don't already know. I'm a fan, I've read it all, seen it all about the man. I just don't think musicians are geniuses. Music isn't high art. Einstein was a genius.

Who said it was about the length of a career? I said greatness could be determined by the length of the career. Beethoven's 9th isn't even his best material. His Romance For Violin in F Major is far more moving and far more majestic, in my opinion.

About 'Til I Die and Surfer Girl, that's good for you. We all have our opinions.

If the term genius is about how many people agree on the greatness, then that would make the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and the Doors geniuses. Genius is a tag given to people of higher intelligence. Brian is not one of those people.

"Genius is a tag given to people of higher intelligence."

Genius is a tag given to people of truly OUTSTANDING talent. It doesn´t matter if it´s in science, music, poetry, chess etc. I guess we will always disagree about that subject.

Then why is it agreed upon that people with an IQ above 160 are geniuses? I'm talking in the literal sense, you're talking in the erotic/artistic sense.

 ::) Ok, outstanding talent AND/OR intelligence.

Ok, there's no need to be a smartass just because we don't agree. I don't roll my eyes at you, sir.

 :-\ Sorry for that. I had a terrible day at work, so I´m a little bit "annoyed" right now by anything. Probably not a good time to have a discussion.

You know, there is a thread in the Sandbox where you can rant and rave. I would suggest taking a visit.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=639.0

Genius is not a scientific term, and is not defined as "extreme intelligence" by people who make careful studies of it.  I read a journalistic piece on the nature of genius years ago that gave as examples Babe Ruth and Dick Fosbury, the guy who invented the Fosbury flop.  They each approached something many other people had done, and did it  differently in a way that it revolutionized the sport.  They weren't geniuses in every aspect of life, but they each brought a certain genius to that one thing.  And neither could articulate it very well.

People want to turn "genius" into some kind of elite term, and Beethoven, Mozart, and Einstein are all cliches of genius, so let's limit it to them.  But if Mozart's music doesn't move me as much as Brian's, does that mean he's not a genius? 

As far as longevity, name a writer (can writers not be geniuses?) other than Dickens and possibly Shakespeare who wrote two acknowledged masterpieces much more than ten or fifteen years apart.  There are certainly a few, but it's not too easy.  The point is that a lot of great careers are not characterized by longevity, and I've never heard that held up as the standard of genius before.

If Brian Wilson is not a genius there's no such thing.

Excellent post. Maybe when you put it that way, maybe Brian is a genius.

Thanks, Doc-very graciously said.  Glad you stirred a worthy discussion. 

Don't give me credit for that, I just derailed the thread.  ;)

Yes and no.



He is a genius in horn sections in pop


He's not Genius, Genius like Mozart or that stuff. He's kind of like John Cage legned wise.


He still has more cute factor then any of them  ;D ;D

This is an interesting thread, and I appreciate everyone's comments.

I think we're all way too close to the situation, too subjective, to paraphrase Mike Love.  I mean, come on, Brian has touched our lives...  I've said this before but the only thing I'm willing to consider Brian as a genius is a genius at affecting me.

I don't know- when that Mozart wrinkled his nose he was pretty darned adorable.

I would almost say I agree that Brian's not at all in the same league as Bach or Beethoven or Chopin (I don't care much for Mozart, but perhaps that's because I don't listen to much of his music), but when I think about, Brian probably is on the same level as these great composers, in his genre of music. While These composers created some of the most beautiful music ever in their genres, I doubt very much that any of them (other than possibly Chopin) could write a decent pop song. And while the music of Bach moves me much more than Brian's music, that is not necessarily because Brian is an inferior composer to Bach, but rather because for me personally Baroque music moves me more than pop music in general. A lot of Beethoven's music moves me more than Bach's (and Paul Williams' album Someday Man moves me more than any of those), but I still think Bach is the greatest composer who ever lived. It's just a difference in genres. So yes, in my opinion, Brian Wilson is a pop music genius, and a production genius (which should not be disputed in my opinion). Of course, we should all remember that music is completely, 100 per cent. subjective (as is the definition of the word genius, or so it would seem).

Very well said.

Though I'm far from a music scholar, I've never accepted that classical music as a genre or a form is somehow superior to other forms of music- intellectually or artistically.  Having said that, though, here are some classical composers who have scored on the pop charts:

Bach: "A Lover's Concerto", for the Toys.  I think Mike Love did the lyrics and added some hooks.  JSB also kicked in for part of "Lady Lynda".

Rachmaninoff: "Never Gonna Fall In Love Again" and "All By Myself" for Eric Carmen.

"Opus 17"- The Four Seasons- was that an original melody?

Beethoven added a few licks to ELO's cover of "Roll Over Beethoven".

Strauss:  "Also Sprach Zarathustra" for Deodato

Ponchielli: "Camp Grenada"  for Allan Sherman

There are many others.

But Brian Wilson is a genius.

Wile E. Coyote is a super genius.

"Pet Sounds" at 23 years of age.

Foda this -- for all of his hard work would be useless, as it is a non-creation without his instinct, which IS his genius.

Just to be a jerk, i'm gonna mention that the Toy's "Lovers Concerto" isn't considered a Bach melody anymore, I think they (scholars) have all but agreed it was one of Bach's students who wrote it.  I think it's called "Minuet in G" (minor).  Bach's actual "Minuet in G" major is very good, though, I think. 

I wasn't insinuating that Brian was as good as Beethoven, or on Beethoven's level, but I think the same blood flows through their veins if you know what I mean. 

He sure is. They made music for their time and Brian made music for his. Just because it's a two and half minute pop ditty doesn't it make it less great or complex.

Would you believe me if I said that I meant to say that?  I didn't think so.  But I did, though only because I had just looked it on Wikipedia before posting, and it said the same thing.  Anyway, good call.  (Jerk).  ;D

its funny that you said genius would have to be applied to the doors and pink floyd. jim morrison was a genius, an actual genius on the I.Q. scale, and its 130 which the genius level applies. its just funny that you mentioned the doors cause jim was a genius, i dunno if brian is but the music he made sure makes you wonder.  the other composers you mentioned, all the classical ones.... werent they all nuts as well?

I wouldn't consider IQ scores to be a good measure of real genius.  Just an opinion, though, and it's been pointed out repeatedly that "genius" is a highly subjective and ill-defined term.  But like pornography, we all think we know it when we see it.

A lot of people think that IQ tests are pretty darned subjective.   And I'm not just saying that because my last test led to me being legally classified as mentally challenged.

Have you ever taken one of those tests online?  I did one time, and it was all "wow, you're in the top 1 percentile, you're so smart!" so I thought "man, that's great!".  Then I saw a King of the Hill episode where they insinuated that everyone who takes one online gets really high scores so they can scam you out of money.  LOL.  I haven't been the same since.  :-\

Thank you!

All the online tests I take say I have no social skills.

One even told me I was ugly!