The Smiley Smile Message Board

For quiet a while I am wondering about these things. Let me explain them to you, can I? So..

1) Brian Wilson was dating Marilyn Rovell back in 1962, was it? If I am not mistaken Marilyn was 14 (or was she 15?) years old and Brian turned 20. OK, clear so far

2) Back in the year 1978, when Brian and Marilyn were seperated, Brian had a "companion" called Debbie... she was around 16. Is she a mystery? In the whole BB History I just found her once, mentioned in an Article by Nick Kent. So I am wondering... what kind of relationship did they have? And why would a 16 year old girl be interessted in an 37 year old Brian Wilson with 250 pounds :)?

3) Nearly at the same time Dennis had a ... short relationship with a 16 year old ... chambermaid.... and if I am not mistaken, Dennis was arrested for this, wasn´t he?

So now I am wondering - why was Dennis arrested for this and Brian was not? Because he had relationships with this mysterious Debbie-Girl and with Marilyn back in 1962?

Does that make any sence and does anyone know... why?
Thank you

I don't know why for sure.  I think that in Brian and Marilyn's case, the two had the blessings of the Rovell and Wilson families.  I would guess that in Dennis' case, the parents of the girl elected to press charges against Dennis.  As for Brian's late '70s friend, I'm not sure.  I guess I wasn't aware that the girl was that young.  I think she's mentioned in Peter Carlin's "Catch A Wave" book.  I'll have to give that part another read.

Being with an underaged girl isn't illegal if you're not having sex with her. And Brian does seem to me like the kind of guy who could just enjoy being with a girl without necessarily having any sexual intentions. Dennis doesn't. :)

The Debbie in question would be Debbie Keil, Brian's on-and-off again girlfriend in the late '70s.  "The Night Was So Young" is presumably about her.  I'm pretty sure she was of legal age at the time, she just looked (or acted) 16 to Kent.  David Leaf married her best friend.  There's quite a bit about her in the Gaines book.  

Oh, ok - thank you. Maybe she was in legal age. Somehow it´s funny, that you are not allowed to have sex with a girl under 18 in the USA (in my country it´s 14...) but Brian and Marilyn were allowed to marry 1964 when Marilyn was 16 :). And how is it possible then, that so many girls in this periode got pregnant and gave birth to children so quiet young...  :hat

And just of couriosity. Brian and Diane had a litte "affair" hadn´t they.. .but I was never really sure when this happened. Couldn´t help but wondering if some songs written by Brian are actuelly written about Diane... Sometimes when I listen to the songs I could imagine this... just in 2 or 3 songs

The age of consent in the US varies from state to state - generally it's 16 or 17, but yes, in California, it's 18.

And yes, Brian & Diane had a relationship that lasted, to the best of my knowledge, from about 1966-1977. When interviewing The Honeys in the UK in the early 80s, I asked Diane if "My Diane" was really about her, and she confirmed it was. Marilyn, sitting next to her, nodded. The guy who was interviewing them with me fell off his chair.

Huh... 11 years... I wonder that the two sisters are still talking to each other... thank you Andrew for this Information.

For quiet a long time I thought, Brian was "Mr. Nice Guy", a little shy with women and happy to have Marilyn. And then he had a relationship with Diane for such a long time..

Now I wonder... Brian wrote the song "My Diane" around 1976, wasn´t it? How did Marilyn react on this, she must have noticed that this song exists, didn´t she?

Poor Brian *haha*.. had 2 women for 11 years and then he lost both of them...

Er... read my last post again ?  ???

" Debbie Keil, Brian's on-and-off again girlfriend in the late '70s".  About 30-35, wasn't she?  Either she looked really young or Kent was stoned or he was taking considerable journalistic liberties with the truth.  Or he's not as good as people reckon he is...

The story Brian tells in his book (no idea how reliable this is, obviously) is that he fell for Diane first, but she was too young or already taken or something along those lines, so he cozied up to Marilyn instead. But Diane was in some respects always up there in his mind.

@Andrew: No, I didn´t mean how Marilyn react at the Interview - what did she do back in 1976.. guess Brian must have played this song somewhere at his Piano .. or sang it at home.. or played it in the studio where Marilyn was involved... she must have wondered why this song is about Diane, didn´t she?  ;D....

Marilyn: Like... "Hey you son of a g... " (I mean...sorry).. "why do you write a love song about my sister? Hah?"
Brian: "Ah... go away, tell Wendy she should buy me some speed"


or anything like this?

Actually, he fancied Barbara first...

So that really IS true? I thought that was just some made up thing in the "autobiography". Wasn't she like 13 at the time?

I think I just sh*t myself.

According to the homepage of the English guy  ;D :lol (just kidding, sorry) Marilyn was born February the 6th, anno domini 1948

That means... Bri and Mar met at the 28 Oktober 1962 .. would mean, Marilyn was 14 years 6 month and 22 days if I am not mistaken?

According to my reasearch it happened like this.

Gary Usher: "Hey Bri, want you to meet my girlfriend. She has some cute Honeys with her"
So Brian did go over, fell in Love with Diane.

Brian: "Hey, what is your drink?"
Marilyn: "Hot Chocolate... want to have a sip?"
Brian: "Sure, Love to"
(staring at Diane all the time... suddenly... Marilyn crys... Brian... Hot Chocolate... Marilyn... no good combination

Brian: "Oops, that was me..."
Diane: "What a clumsy idiot..."
Marilyn: "Oh, poor boy, he is sooo cute..."


 ;D
Give or take a line  :lol

She could have been some two months younger - Ian's handed me some info that strongly suggests the BB were playing at Pandora's Box in late August/early September 1962. Barbara was younger still...

Steven Gaines mentions a Debbie Kiel quite a few times in Heroes and Villains.

Heroes & Villains... huh, never read that book though, heard it´s a bit... yeah, I leave it here

@AGD: Er, may I ask you who this Barbara is? Barbara Charren? Barbara Lamm?  :lol...


"I was goin out with a lot of girls and to all of them I tried to be true..." and so on... ;D

So did Gaines just repeat Kent's ridiculous assertion? Or vice versa?

Barbara Rovell.

No, I mean wasn't Barbara about that age? So, if Marilyn was 14, wasn't Barbara 11? So if he fancied HER first, then that's seriously f***ed up.

She's a roller skating child with a ribbon in her hair
She gets my heart to beating when she's standing there ...

Hey little hey little hey little tomboy
Time you turned into a girl ...

And we'll make sweet lovin' when the sun goes down.

Yeah, when I read the first couple of paragraphs of the first post, I thought this thread was gonna be about the Wilsons' penchant for very young girls.

BTW, how old were the Manson girls and Shawn Love when Dennis "met" them?

He these things can happen. We rented a boat the other day and I just chatted a bit with the boat house girl and though "Gosh, she is cute".. in the end I found out that she  was 16... so..  :police: I understand the boys....


But you are right.. they had a lot of things goin on with young girls... also Mike... isn´t his wife actually 30 years younger then him?

Manson girls were mostly born late 40s... Shawn was born December 1964, so when she met Denny she'd have been 17, 18.

I myself know the year of the birth of those girls .. involved in the murders...or in crimes.. :(

Mary Brunner *1943
Susan Atkins * 1948
Lynette Fromme * 1948
Sandra Good * 1944
Linda Kasabian *1949
Patricia Krenwinkel *1947
Catherine Share *1942
Leslie Van Houten *1949


Mary and Charles Manson have a child together... Michael Valentine Manson

Yikes. I never read that Brian was interested in Barbara. That's really disgusting. As I understood it, he met Marilyn and Diane at the same time and liked both of them. But he was dating someone else (maybe even engaged) and didn't get involved with Marilyn until a little later (maybe she was 15 by then?). He remained interested in Diane but ended up with Marilyn because she was more outgoing and nurturing sister and therefore she and Brian got on well and became close. Then there's that interview with Tony Asher where he claims that Wouldn't It Be Nice came from a conversation with Brian where Brian was musing about how it would be nice if he could sleep with Diane just once. Is this true, or bullshit? Brian doesn't let go easily, I don't think. He still seems quite close to Marilyn in some ways. Hey, Melinda was in her 40s when they got married. At least he didn't marry a 20-year-old at age 55 or whatever he was.

Because rich rock stars never rob the cradle.  ::)

(http://cm1.theinsider.com/media/0/62/30/katie_joel.0.0.0x0.432x541.jpeg)

(http://www.bergproperties.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/paul-mccartney-heather-mills.jpg)

Well, that's exactly my point. Brian didn't do that when he got married the second time. Not that this means he's over his thing about younger women,  but I'm just saying.

I personally found that dating/marrying younger men doesn't work. You can't train them!!!!

When Brian was living with the Rovells he was obsessing over Barbara while he was dating and sleeping with Marilyn - apparently most of the gooey confessions Brian burdened Tony Asher with during the Pet Sounds writing sessions involved his attraction to Barbara . . . no evidence he ever acted on it, however.  If the parents consent, it is legal to marry someone underage in most states, sometimes as young as 14 . . . I don't think carnal knowledge of an underage girl is legal whether the parents allow it or not, but it wouldn't be prosecuted if no one objected or would testify to the police.

;D

It's not surprising really that Brian was interested in girls much younger than him (even 11 or 12, sick as it sounds)...he seemed to be attracted to (and hold in high regard) innocence, and obviously that tends to be a trait of younger girls as opposed to girls in their early 20s.  If I had to guess, I would think that these attractions he had weren't sexual in nature...Brian was just drawn to their innocence.

Gee, Donna, I would think that it would be the opposite...you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and all that.  ;)

Harmless....


(http://www.streamingoldies.com/content-images/wimh/JLL525.jpg)

Ahh, yes, the kissin' cousins.  Jerry Lee, 23 and his wife (and cousin), Myra, 13.

Creepy and twisted.

What a picture!

Hahaha, once I mentioned Jerry Lee with his "Cousin Wife" and a guy told me: "You don´t know anything about him, read his Biographie that you know it´s a lie" *lol*

Put If I am not mistaken, the "Myrna Brown Scandal" only occured in England wasn´t it? Because in some states it was allowed to marry a cousin and even a girl that was 13... but in England it wasn´t. So it´s all weird. Because today - in some states of the US - you can go to prison for only kissing a girl that is under 18. And that´s a bit strange...


But, nevertheless, I  can top all your stories -  but I´ll only post the link:

"Morgan Freeman and his step-granddaughter"
http://images.starpulse.com/pictures/2008/07/15/previews/Morgan%20Freeman%20and%20Granddaughter-SGY-001686.jpg

 ;D

who can blame brian and dennis? those are a girl's peak years in terms of looking classically beautiful (i.e., youthful yet desirable) unless they get bit with the teenage goofy bug.

have you see marilyn these days? just looks like any average mother in a supermarket, no offense to her

i think brian is quite a handsome guy, he at least deserves a woman or a teenage girl with a chin!

just kidding

problem with liking girls in those years is that you will get stuck with them as they expand and wrinkle

every pretty girl is just saggy tits and wrinkled skin waiting to happen anyway, and a space filler for a coffin

it's no surprise though that brian liked girls rather than women, he seems to have been a boy more than a man

dennis was a man, so it's safe to assume he was just hungry for fresh fruit.

the beach boys have always had a sort of boyish crudeness to them about some sexual jokes. "gettin hungry". brian's p*ssy eating comments on lei'd in hawaii, etc.

all part of the lifestyle i suppose. seems sort of stupid to me, sex isn't that great in the first place.

It came out in Britain but the impact it had in the USA was nearly the same.

It is true that in deep down Lousiana where JLL comes from, it isn't unusual to marry cousins.

Oh, and yes, it is a lie. She was/is only his 2nd cousin.... if that makes any difference ;)

@Nobody: Could also be that Brian missed something as a teenager ya know. Never having a teenager-girlfriend can drive you nuts and for the rest of your life you have the desire to have one :). A young virgin, wehre you can explore the love...

For Dennis - yeah, i would suggest he would have landed in bed with every woman with two tits... and there were many, many young girls out there... so who can blaime him... or Mike. Don´t forget Mike in this chase :)

I am wondering how Alan und Bruce act. Bruce married very late (1976, was it?) and he is still married with the same woman. For 33 years... 

Creepiest thread since the Beach Boys gender-switch fantasy. Need to go take a shower after reading this.

Creepy? No, this isn't creepy! Maybe Brian liked young girls because they were impressed by his collection of toys? After warming them up on robots and dolls and innocent toys like that he shows them a vibrator, like it's all part of the fun and games, and then...  :o

NEVERMIND, I'm running out of this topic as fast as I can!

It's one thing to be interested in a 16 year old girl when you're 18, another when you're 25.   Rock star or not, it's wrong to mess around with underage girls, morally and legally.  

Okay, a friend let me know about this thread, and I think I have a few things to say.  First, I might have the best answer as to Debbie Keil's age, as that would be me.  I am about 10 year's younger than Brian, so when he was going through his divorce from Marilyn, obviously I was of age.  You might also want to note that when Marilyn was 15, he was only 19 - not exactly an old man robbing the cradle.  Yes, David and Eva Leaf were my friends then, and remain two of my closest friends today.  That's all I have to say about that, and I don't understand why it would be of any importance to anyone, especially so many years later when we are all supposed to be adults.  Brian obviously has a wife of quite a few years and family.  I don't get the point.

However, regarding using Nick Kent as a source for any comments about Brian, I do have a few things to say.   I was present through the entire interview Kent used to denigrate Brian and me, and have had no meeting with him since.  I will tell you what a remember, with a great deal of clarity from that day.  This was my second meeting with Kent, having met him once before with my friend, Michele Myer, and I'm certain he didn't recall it.  Michele and her friends were seeing that this NME guy visiting LA had places to stay, food and transportation.  He went home and trashed them royally in his article, along with Brian, Marilyn and her family.  Well, obviously, if someone wants to take the point of view of the "dark side," Kent's great claim to fame, the whole thing will probably lack context and balance, but this man couldn't even get the simplest facts straight in order to twist them.  He kept referring to Mae Rovell as "Eve Rovell."

When I met Kent for the 2nd time, it was at Brian's home.  My friend Michele had called me to warn me that he was coming and to be careful.  She had tried to warn the Beach Boys offices, but they arranged the interview at Brian's home anyway, for some unknown reason.  He showed up with his photographer.  Brian introduced us and I said "hello," then sat quietly not commenting.  It was Brian's interview, not mine.  The only other words I spoke in front of him were when Brian asked where something was, and I said it was "at my house," followed by "goodbye," when Kent left.  From this meeting he derived that I was a tofu eating, intellectually challenged person.  Once again, with his usual accuracy, he identified me as "Diane."  Years later, after he had obviously been told by someone that he got my name wrong, I ran across an article (I think it was a book excerpt) where he explained this away by indicating that I was so stupid, I told him the wrong name for myself.  I'm curious if those of you who read this found it concievable that an adult woudn't know her own name.  If you did believed it, may I ask why?  If you didn't believe it, why would you believe anything that so-called journalist would have to say? 

My point is, just because it's in print, on television or on a blog, doesn't make it true.  If you choose to believe Kent rather than me, that's fine.  I suppose it's a great deal more titillating, and it really, absolutely, doesn't matter at this point.  The reason I finally chose to speak up and provide the facts from my point of view, is that I hope you apply the same skepticism this might suggest to things that you read or hear that really might matter to you.  The next time you watch some shrill, self-serving, extremist jerk on television, or hear him/her on the radio, or read their comments, give it some real thought before you go around repeating what they say as fact.  Check a few more sources.  If enough people believe the wrong people about our country's leadership, for instance, because the nasty comments are fun, it could come back to bite all of us. 

With that said, take care, make whatever comments you like, but really THINK when it might have an impact on someone, like you.  And to those of you who love and support Brian and his friends, please accept my best wishes.

Holy mackerel. Welcome to the board! I'm not sure that Nick Kent's piece is regarded as gospel around here, so your post is very welcome. Thanks.

I second that.

Welcome on this board m(r)s. Keil. I hope you don't mind me merging both threads into one (which I just did).

And thank you for (much appreciated) input on this subject. What is discussed here is often based on what we've heared or read. Which - we know, well, we should know - isn't always 100% trustworthy. So I definitely appreciate that you've given us some insight on the way this story/gossip got on paper.

My respect for Nick Kent took a direct hit when I realised he'd ripped off a lot of his Smile info in his 1975 pieces from the Vosse Fusion interview. Uncredited, too.

wow welcome the the board Debbie, thanks for the insight.

Amazing post.

Debbie, please stick around the board!  Any insight you would feel comfortable sharing would be greatly appreciated.

Second that- welcome.  Glad I changed my decision to look back at this ultra-creepy thread.

Welcome, Debbie!


Of course he's going to rip off other people's writing...when he writes his own material, 99% of what he says is wrong.

Wow, best first post ever!  Thanks for sharing Debbie.  :)

Thanks, for your support and kind words.  I'm glad there are a number of thoughtful people there who might question the validity of some of the things people write, even if they do get published.  I have known some very good writers around Brian, as well, obviously David Leaf being one of them.  Whether you agree with his (and others') point of view or not, he did his research and his quotes were valid.  We should value anyone doing that these days.

Debbie

I forgot to mention, in defense of Barbara and Dennis's children and her, I know she was "of age" when she married Dennis.  I worked at the Ivar offices when he met her, and he was ecstatic about her.  She is an absolutely intelligent, lovely, down-to-earth human being, and Michael is a fantastic chef!...love his mussels appetizer, etc.  Also, consider that we were all very young back then.  I think I misjudged a lot of people, and they misjudged me.  Keep in mind we're all grownups now.

Dennis probably did many of the things some of you talk about, but I've never met another human being who could make a person feel so special and loved, even with every new acquaintance.  While I wasn't one of his ladies, I completely understand why very bright women fell in love with him, and vice versa.  I have no doubt about his love for the women in his life.  He had a giant heart and a true empathy for all people.  Listen to his music...Give him that one.  If you want to have fun with his colorful side, fine...just keep in mind what a treasure he was, and is...a very special man...

Please stop posting.

+1

will do

Welcome Debbie ! Hope you'll stick around.

It's fascinating how the www makes you hear stories about your heroes from the people who actually where there. Just think about it, Ed Roach, Steve Desper and now Debbie Keil. Plus the insiders of today of course like Mark Linett and Alan Boyd, etc. Man this board is the best around for Beach Boys-fans.

@dK

Hello Debbie,

ok, I started the thread, so maybe I have to apologize. You know, I read Kent´s Interview and in this Interview - which was a german translation - he wrote that Brian introduced his 16 year old girlfriend as "Diane" but soon HE realised that Brian was wrong and mentioned, that the name is Debbie. So I was just wondering... did Brian really had a 16 years old girlfriend by the time? No - now I know that he hadn´t because you were obviously 27 then.

I also found out that Bruce Johnston had a big problem with Kent because of an article he wrote back in 1975 - and he didn´t want anyone of the Beach Boys to talk with him. But it seems like it was then Manager Jerry Schilling (could be wrong in this point) who invited him. Sorry if I am wrong with this, should be no offence against anyone.

And sure, it´s non of my business with whom Brian was dating or with whom he was together and why. I just had some pieces of the puzzle so I just tried to ask some people how this was possible ... and so I am still wondering after all this years. So I´m sorry and want to say "Thank you" for speaking up.

But... sorry should not be any offence... if I am not mistaken you said that Marilyn was 15 and Brian was 19... but... I think Brian is born 1942 and Marilyn 1948... isn´t it? So you are right, it´s not such a big difference in age. I was just referring to the Kent-Article were he wrote "Brian was 37 and the girl that Brian introduced me as Diane was 16"... it was wrong.

So thank you again, I hope you´ll accept my apologie and my best wishes...
Martin

Oops - you're right.  Marilyn was born in '48.  In any case, Brian was so young, as was she, and this wasn't an attack on you.  They were both young and were lucky/unlucky enough to be famous, and therefore, exposed.  It's just that I have also been lucky/unlucky enough to be written about, so I understand how weird and convoluted things get, and frankly, some people just lie to write the cruel article that they had planned, as it is their "signature" in the rock world, at least in one case.

I think Gaines, who also wrote a pretty dramatic book, truly did care about the indivduals in the band and did his best to fairly express a point of view, yet the constant drama was needed for a story.  It's just hard to gain perspective on something as complex as a gifted family with many problems in the time it takes (and is demanded) to write a book.  But then, if you spend too much time, there is a lack of perspective.  So, maybe it's best, in the end, to just listen to the music and hear the artist's soul.  What else matters in the end?

Debbie

Also, best second post ever.  Didn't think this awful thread was salvageable, but it's been done.

Thanks.  I tried to avoid message boards, as things can be misconstrued and attacked.  You folks have been wonderful.  I had a lot of time and personal experiences to sort through over my lifetime.  I truly regret being too young and inexperienced to understand Marlilyn's, and her family's, actions.  I was unkind to them in my thoughts (although I don't think anything was published), as I thought I was defending Brian, as his friend.  On the other hand, they were unkind to me, although they never knew me, and I dont' blame them, maybe they thought the same.  It was an overwhelming time.  We were all not just young, but I think no one can understand the immensity of fame, and what it demands.  It's a very tall mountain.

The truth is, many people have loved Brian and the Boys.  It was a tall task for us, and many of us failed.  Imagine what a tall task it was for them, really living it...Jeez!

So, when you talk about them, do it with the love that the music conveys.  They deserve it.  And when you talk about everyone around them, look at the love in their eyes these days (like his band, family and friends), and know that we all have treasured them and loved them wholeheartedly over the years, in our own ways.  David Leaf, certainly, Ed Roach, sure, among the people I knew well, as well as many of Brian's current friends who truly love him, whom I won't mention without permission.  If you could have seen his band, Van Dyke Parks, and his loving friends after the first performance of "Smile" in London (pretty much all in joyous tears), you couldn't miss it.  If you had seen Paul McCartney and his band crying at the "Smile" presentation a few days later, you also couldn't have missed it, along with George Martin, and many others.

With all the silly daily drama, how bad can that be?  All I have to say is, just look at the Wilsons' kids, Carnie, Wendy, Dari, Delaney, Dylan (sorry, I don't know the new baby's name), Scott, Jennifer, Carl B., Michael, Gage, Justyn and Jonah  (sorry I don't know Mike and Al's kids as well, so can't comment)...and the joy of the songs, what other legacy do you need?...Clearly, there ws a lot of love.

Debbie

Hey Debbie :)

your posting is really, really good and sweet. Do you mind if I quotate the last two paragraphs in an other board - because it´s so nice :)

I am always sooo sad because there are so many wrong stories about the Beach Boys and lies, trying to make a tragedy out of their career - because tragedies sell better :). His music is still so powerful and sweet today :)..... but as I said, sometimes you want to know a bit more about the person and why do Journalists write things and if they are really true - or why one thing happened and the other not :)....

Thank you again for commin around... So.. Brian wrote "The night was so young" about you? Wow :). It is one of my favorite songs.

You were Brian's muse for 'The Night Was So Young' , holy hell, one of my favourite BB songs ever. Carl is so wonderful on that track.

Very interesting posts so far Debbie, thanks for taking the time.  ;D

Sure, you can use the quote.  It's not copyrighted.

Well, Brian told me a long time ago that "The Night Was So Young" was written for me, and he appeared really serious (meaning uncomfortable with saying it, while I had never asked).  I'm not making light of him, but if you know Brian, you have to develop a sense of what's real and what's "for the moment," said either to relieve himself of unwanted stuff from you or others, or he might have said it for the fun of it, if you appear too serious, or if he's just not in the mood.  He really is remarkably bright and perceptive (in case that wasn't clear from the music).   He has creative ways of dealing with all of that, just like his music.  His friends who truly love him get that about him, but it's still a challenge sometimes.  You might want to read his interviews that way.  Sometimes, he's just not in the mood.  Other times, it all clicks.  It doesn't have to be a drama.  It's just him.

Debbie

 

Wow Debbie, thanks for all the insight. So nice to have you here!

Isn't it the legality that makes everyone think its "morally" wrong?

I would say it is more that the morality of it caused it to become legally wrong.

Last time I ever listen to Jerry Lee...

If I used that as my criteria for what musicians I listen to, my music collection would look pretty empty.

I agree. But it is interesting how some people's musical enjoyment is very much based on the non-music related behavior of the musicians. I have met many people who rejected Michael Jackson's music based on the allegations and general weirdness surrounding him, which makes no sense to me.

Well, then you'd better not listen to DW or The Beach Boys, 'cause Shawn was Dennis' first-cousin-once-removed (same relationship as Jerry Lee and his child bride, who was the daughter of Jerry Lee's first cousin and bandmate...same situation as Dennis/Mike/Shawn). 

Unless you're basing this decision on Myra Gale Brown Lewis being only 13 when Jerry married her...whereas Shawn was 16 when she and Dennis got together (and 19 when they married)...

Don't. That guy has too much freakin' talent and genius inside to not listen to his music.

About 1 percent of rock or movie stars make the same moral decisions I would. Hell I still like Spector's music even if I think he's a jerk.

Gee whiz you guys, ever heard of a joke?

Mrs. Debbie,

I appreciate you posting & setting the record straight.  I've got a question or three for you:  what years were you with Brian?  I assume sometime beginning in the late '70s, but knowing exactly when gives me a better perspective.  I know it's possible that you could have stayed in touch as friends over the years with Brian, too. 

Does a story come to mind about how you came to meet Brian?  Was he working on a particular record?  Again, thanks for being here,

Jeremy

Jeremy:

Unless I retrieve a lot of documents and explain extremely complicated issues, such as friendships and love for young people, and how one clearly defines each (which I'm not inclined to do, nor capable of doing), I can't give too much more detailed information.

I was in touch with the Ivar offices from the time I was a young teen and a kindly receptionist listened to my enthusiastic comments about the music.  In late 1969, I moved to Hollywood and began working at the offices, handling the fan mail and answering the switchboard when need.  I met Brian there, and my genuine love for the music, along with the fact that I was a good listener and he was a good teacher (my ear could never have been better trained), brought an instantaneous friendship.  We talked for hours once, which got him into a little hot water with his wife, and got me into such hot water that they would hide me in the sauna when Marilyn came to the offices (no kidding).  The sauna was then full of labeled recording tapes from the studio, so I had a great time.  Anyway, I was far too young to understand that I could be direct and possibly clear up the problem (who knows, she was very young too, so maybe not).

In any case, the friendship remained, and when Brian started living on his own just before the divorce, he relied on me more than before.  Was there love?... certainly...there still is.  All of Brian's friends love him so much, and real love takes whatever form is appropriate to the situation.  Can I define it any further than that?   No.  Just think about your own lives.

I met Melinda before she and Brian were married, and I think we hit it off well.  While I don't see them often, she is always kind and friendly to me, and Brian always loves seeing an old friend.  The relationship, last time I checked, is good.  I love Brian, his people, his band...I get to the concerts when I can, AND I have a marriage and a home to support, just like he does.

If I disappointed anyone, maybe that's a good thing.  A "mystery woman" is always far more exotic, but distracts from the point - the MUSIC.

Debbie

I think that may have been the best post this board has seen in...ohh...who knows?  It's at or near the top of MY list!

Thank you Debbie.

I was thinking the same. What an incredibly sane and compassionate post. I can't think of a better attitude to have.

Thanks!  I failed to mention one thing about Brian's wonderful friends.  After the first performance of "Smile" in London, Eva Leaf and I were sitting in front of the fireplace in the hotel drinking our second or third glass of champagne (who would know at that point?).  She had to deal with my uncontrollable sobs after the show, that I didn't even understand.  She just turned to me and said, "See, Debbie, you CAN love someone enough."  What other form of relationship do we really need?  I think that's what we all are to him, the ones who "love him enough," that he can love us with that marvelous gift of his.

Debbie

Although you did not address me (sorry) I take the liberty to chime in. 'The Dark Stuff' made quite a lot of fuss when it was originally published, and, since many pages in it were dedicated to Brian Wilson, I bought it. And since I was more impressionable then, and had read little on the Boys, I found the stories quite adventurous. But that changed when I got to know more.

I'd say now that a lot of the prose is a 'hatchet job' in the classic British tradition. It is often very insulting and demeaning (he calls someone in Iggy Pop's entourage looking like 'someone's afterbirth', if I recall rightly). He shows no respect for his subjects. The only star in the book is Nick Kent himself (read the piece where he and Keith Richards take heroin and Richards overdoses and gets all blue in the face). Somehow I think that the whole book is psychological projection: Kent had so much wanted to be a rock 'n' roll guitar slinger. But he failed. So he got to write about the occupation.

There were more things. He writes about the tribulations of Brian, who, according to Kent, was so out of it that he dropped his cigarette ashes into his salad and devoured the whole cocktail with glee. Which was later denied.

The worst part is that Kent makes a meek apology to come out of it all as a shining moral person: he writes (I paraphrase): 'I feel like an utter prick and idiot for having been a witness to the private hell of Brian Wilson'.

Didn't Bruce dedicate a song to Kent at Knebworth?  "Good Vibrations", if I remember correctly?  I'm sure it was done sardonically, or sarcastically, given Bruce's abhorrence of Kent.

Something that must be noted here is that the Brian section of The Dark Stuff is significantly different from the articles he wrote in 1975.

In what way? The original articles came out 3 years before my entry into this world.

For me, the nadir in the Dark Stuff was the "Jacuzzi? JACUZZI?!" part. ::)

Yep - being hidden in the the sauna was pretty funny.  It gave me a lot of time to see what was in the recording "vault" (meaning sauna).  Some of the fan mail had been sitting there for 6 years.  I felt badly when I saw all the fan club membership checks, money orders, etc...then I found my own payment from when I was 11 years old.

It was great fun to work at Ivar.  On a good day, I'd be making deliveries to the studio and get to hear "Sunflower" being recorded (mostly at Wally Heider then, around the corner from the offices).  Carl would always ask my (or any fan's) opinion on a mix.  They were like that...

Debbie

Uhhh....was that a quote?

Yes, we emailed back & forth, & Mrs. Debbie said it was fine to post it here.

:lol ok...kinda confused me for a moment.

Yes - It was a quote.  I appreciate his asking first!  We all must take care, even at this site.  It IS a public forum...

Debbie

I work on the principle that everything I post here gets back to the 'interested parties'.

And it does.  ;D

It's a wonder Melinda will still speak to you ;D

Great post Debbie:) Thanks so much for being here! Hope to see more of your posts:)

She doesn't.

Hi Andrew -

care to elaborate a bit? Was the book version more sensationalist than the original series? Or vice versa?

The original 3-part, 30,000 word series was less sensationalist and, of course, only covered the years 1961-1974. For better or worse, these articles were the one single impetus that propelled me into the Wacky World of Wilson. I used to defend Kent, until I discovered he'd used material from the Vosse Fusion article as his own, and had misrepresented most if not all of the people he'd interviewed.

The Dark Stuff comprises 1) - a condensed rewrite of his 1975 piece: 2) - a slightly revised version of his 1980 NME article/interview that Debbie referred to in her original post (revised mainly to make him look less dumb at mis-identifying her as Diane): and 3) - a (then) recent interview that he at least credits to its original source. I find the original piece by far the better of the two.

Thanks AGD! I like this type of info. Way back Kent introduced me to the world of bands like Television, and many other new wave acts that have stood the test of time. When I bought The Dark Stuff, much later, I did not really recognize his writing style that well. This clears it up a bit.

Sorry, I thought you two were OK. Is this recent, if you don't mind me asking?

Well... I'm assuming that since she requested (via the Bloo admin) that I don't post on Brian's board any more, I'm off the Christmas card list. Seems to have a problem with historical facts.

She kicked you from the blueboard, what a joke.

Yoko indeed  :o

Welcome to the board, Ms./Mrs. Keil (or can I just call you Debbie?)!! Nice to have yet another BB insider around these parts...gotta love the internet!

OT, but I love your subscript: I like Winds Of Change too! It has been slagged off so many times, yet I think the melody is great, with large intervals between the notes. Had it been produced, arranged and sung in 1971 for Surf's Up, many folks would have an entirely different perspective on that song.

Thanks.  I'm not really an insider...more of an historian, I think...not a revisionist, though - just like to focus on what counts. 

Now I'm off to work on my book and lectures - astrology, not BBs - sorry...Just too many additions to our solar system to ignore!

Debbie

Quick question: Out of the songs  you remember Brian working on during the time you spent with him, which was your favorite?

Or "former insider/friend of BW", I guess!

He called it "The Angel Song."  Much of it appeared in "Don't Let Her Know She's and Angel."...Wish it had a different mix when it finally came out...Didn't sound much like Brian to me when it was released many years later - very "dumbed down" from what I heard originally...

Debbie

Jeez Debbie, your insights, knowledge, history is a really, really good addition to this board. 

Please don't go away anytime soon!

Could there be a recording of 'The Angel Song' (demo?) lying around on a dusty shelf somewhere?

Hey, thank you. That was new to me. So "Don't let her..." was also "begun" in the 70s...
Did you hear the "Sweet Insanity"-version? Is that more like what you remembere?

"The Angel Song" was written in either 1979-80 or 1980-81 - Christmas time.  The "Sweet Insanity" version was closer to the original, although there were a few other elements to it that made it a bit more dramatic as a song, but I liked the "Sweet Insanity" version, in any case.  Part of the original felt a little like the "flourish" part of "Goin' On."  It may have transmuted into that...It's a little hard to break it down, as I just heard the original melody on the piano when it was first pouring out of Brian.  I would say that it was the most enchanting music I ever heard.

Debbie

Just wanted to say thank you, Debbie. It's really great to have you on board!   :)

Hi Debbie..Please stay + hang out with us..I would LOVE to hear your recolections of BW creating songs..recordings..etc..Stay + talk about the music please..The other stuff we dont need to know..We know far to much allready..Talk about the music.. I love your story about  angel song....Didnt know it was that old..GOD bless..