The Smiley Smile Message Board

I have read the account of Joe Thomas' abdication as musical director and subsequent departure from the band, as requested by Darian, in Peter Ames Carlin's book. However, I seem to remember considerably more acrimony between Brian/Melinda, Azoff, and Thomas at the time. Does anyone have any details? What happened to Brian's contract with Giant post-Imagination? He was still releasing albums afterwards on some variation of Warners until the release of TLOS.

Thomas is credited with co-writing "How Could We Still be Dancin'" on GIOMH, and the title track sounds like it was arranged and produced by Thomas... although I am guessing that this took place during the Imagination sessions. It certainly is not the Wilson-Paley version.

All told, Imagination is not an bad album, it's just wrongheaded in some ways for an artist like Brian Wilson... as was Thomas' request that the group play "Caroline, No" as a "sexy, Sade-style thing."

You know, I don't have anything against Joe Thomas. I don't think his arrangements were that bad, and they were, at the least, very clear sounding. Plus, I don't think it's wrong to fault Thomas for the arrangements. If anything, you should be mad at Brian, then, for not writing most of the arrangements himself. And as far as the early-mid 90s adult contemporary sound of the album goes, I have a feeling Brian wanted that at the time. I don't think it's a coincidence that it seems like everything Brian was involved in from the late 70s up until around the mid 00s gravitated towards something close to that sound (synthesizers, cheesy electric guitars, digital reverb, etc.). Don't get me wrong, I don't rate Imagination very highly (although I do like a few of the songs), but I don't blame much of that on Joe Thomas. Let's face it, a lot of the songwriting was mediocre. It reminded me of Brian circa-MIU, not all that bad but a little lost and bland.

Not Brian, but someone else with the surname "Wilson".  ::)

Yep. Besides, Brian has gone on record as not particularly caring for the album and also that it was "not my kind of music-well, vocally it is".

HCWSBD was an Imagination outtake... I remember reading about it on what is now Susan's board shortly after Imagination came out. Not to say it wasn't re-recorded for GIOMH (I honestly don't know if it was or wasn't), but a version of it was indeed recorded at that time.

I've heard that. I'm not sure if I believe it, though.

I do.

I like the remake of Keep an Eye on Summer.    Please don't think badly of me. :p

I'm reasonably sure that the basic track on GIOMH dates from 1998. Can you say "nylon guitar" ?  ;D  Not to mention Thomas being listed among the musicians...

I'll never win the argument but I thought Joe Thomas did a good job with Brian - and The Beach Boys.

I think Brian's vocals on Imagination are the best he's done in his solo career. I thought it was the material, basically the lower 4-5 songs, that doomed the album. I also thought Stars And Stripes was a well-produced album; those harmonies are damn good. I agree with Dada that Joe Thomas' s arrangements weren't that bad, and, if they were, who should've been the one to override them or "correct" them? How about Brian? But he never seems to be held accountable for that; we "blame" Joe Thomas instead, for the lack of success of BRIAN WILSON'S SOLO ALBUM. ???

For what it's worth, I also think "Joy To The World" is the best track on the Christmas album, and Joe produced that.....

I know for a fact Brian lost a good deal of control on Imagination after doing some very basic work. The title track is a good example...Brian did an upbeat track and sang beautifully on the choruses and "my-my-my" section (which is just gorgeous and was shortened for the record---well they mixed it out the first time) and that (as far as I know) was his work...which is why the final version has the enthusiasm, but also nylon guitar and the verses have less enthusiasm than the refrains...

Not surprising. Which other songs had he started before control was wrested away from him? "Cry" sounds like very pure Brian Wilson to me, and I love to play the DTS surround version.

I did not say that Joe Thomas was devoid of talent, or that he ruined the album, or that he was the antichrist, etc. What I did say was that Imagination was wrong-headed; it is not the right environment for Brian to be in - it is more of a Peter Cetera scene. As AGD pointed out, that accursed nylon stringed guitar is out of place on a Brian Wilson album.

The problem with the whole "buck stops here" argument, and with Imagination in general, is that it was produced by Brian and Joe Thomas, not Brian by himself. While some would argue that the same applies to his more recent solo efforts, there is a very real difference between an album having the "Brian Stamp" and not having it. Imagination comes perilously close to losing its "Brian Stamp."

As someone else mentioned, Brian mentioned in interviews at the time that it was not his album, and he was most happy with the vocal aspect. I will agree with this. Imagination takes some getting used to (the sterility and the digital artifacting) but once I get into it, it is better.

So what other songs (besides the title track) did Brian work on before it became a co-production? And what happened with the lawsuits and acrimony between Brian/Melinda and Azoff/Thomas?

AGD really should be answering this but I'm pretty sure "Cry" as well.

And just from a subjective point...you can tell Brian wasn't very involved with some of the Imagination cuts by comparing the versions of "Lay Down Burden" out there. On the Imagination album, it's a pleasant, pretty tune...but then if you listen to the versions on the BW on Tour DVD as well as the rehearsal (the first day of BW rehearsals for the tour) on the DVD and the Roxy cut...it's a spiritual, deep, beautiful cut that I literally can hardly hold back tears listening to. And it's one of the few times where I agree with Brian on the Wondermints v. BB thing he discussed, the harmonic blend they do on the live versions is unbelieveable.

edit - I hate the way tabs work in my browser. I keep somehow posting in the wrong topics.

I agree with Sheriff about the vocals...Thomas got Brian to sound really good on Imagination.  However, I have to disagree with Sheriff and DaDa about the arrangements.  I really find them to be quite awful, and I find it hard to believe that Brian had a lot to do with that.  We've heard Brian's arranging for over 40 years, and it has never been as schmaltzy (for lack of a better term) than on Imagination.  It just doesn't sound like a Brian Wilson record instrumentally. 

Brian hasn't ever been in total control of his solo output...I think the main reason why his recent solo work sounds more "Brian" is that his band does a good job mimicing his arranging style.  Thomas went his own way and consequently, the music on Imagination has that bland MOR/adult-contemporary sound.

Well you goshdarn sonofa... :lol ;D

Really, while I dislike a lot--A LOT--of what is happening on that album, I have a soft spot for it, too. It's around the time I got interested in BBs/BW. And besides, some of the memories of it I have are quite specific and quite personal and those memories inexplicably don't notice show shitty noodling nylon-string guitars can sound over cheesy string synth pads. Oddly, it was around the same time I got Love You, and those memories apply equally to that one. Go figure.

Chris you echo my sentiments 100 percent.

See, for me, it's the last 4-5 songs that save the album for me. I really don't care for the 1st part of it at all.



Aha...I thought so.


Technically you can count Getting in Over My Head,as the version on the album of the same name actually is *another* Imagination outtake. "Sunshine" is also mainly Brian, except the end part which most people love, although I've heard that it started off as more a boogie woogie type deal.

Ok, I don't know if it was because the fact it was pre-9/11 and all the other crap that hasgone on since or what, but, I have nothing but good feelings about IMAGINATION. When I had my old PetSite webpage, I gave it a great review and was asked by GIANT to help promote it on my website which I gladly did (and turned down money because I wanted to be free to write anything I felt). I think Joe did a great job with Brian's vocals and the overall production of the LP. I like it much better than GIOMH and even TLOS. Sue me. I still pull it off the shelf and take it in my car. It makes me feel good. No, I don't love every song. I skip Where Has Love Been all the time. And skip to the end of SUNSHINE everytime. But all and all, a great little piece of music.

Bob

Where Has Love Been is easily one of my faves....

I, for one, am pulling this album out of my vault for relistening.  But, I might take "happy days" off of the play list.

I like most of Imagination. I think it's a lot stronger than any of his solo albums besides Smile, which doesn't count anyway.

Just to clarify, Billy, I wasn't referring to the "lower 4-5 songs" sequentially on the album, but rather my least favorite 4-5 songs. I know it's subjective, but when I make a comp of Brian's solo stuff, I always seem to pick more songs off of Imagination than the other albums. There is a very strong nucleus of songs on Imagination - the title track, "South American", Cry", "Lay Down Burden", and maybe "She Says That She Needs Me". I also think that "Dream Angel" is an underrated song, well produced, including a great Brian lead vocal, maybe one of my favorites on the album.

As I mentioned in my original post, I'll never win the Joe Thomas/Imagination debate, and I'm not really passionate enough about the issue to try, so I'll ask this question more out of curiosity....For those who dislike Joe's arrangements, could you list the specific songs and specific arrangements that you dislike. I'm aware that the album does sound clearer, crisper, nylon-ish, whatever, but I don't find it overly-objectionable. I just accepted it as being contemporary, no more so than any other Brian solo album. I mean, what is Brian's solo sound? Does he have one? Specifically, what turns you off?

I personally love both Imagination and Orange Crate Art. I feel they are an escape from the norm of what I've known as Brian's music. Did that make sense???

Makes sense.  I like OCA primarily because of the concept and VDP's vision.  I would like to hear the title track rerecorded or done live by the Brian Wilson band.  And as for Imagination, I think it has received too much negative criticism. 

I haven't listened to the album in awhile, but just off the top of my head:

--  The spanish guitar on "Lay Down Burden" (this is probably the worst offender for me)

--  The oboe (it may be a clarinet) on "She Says That She Needs Me"

--  The sax at the end of "Happy Days" (in fact, the whole second half of that song is incredibly bland)

--  The nylon guitar on "Cry" (this one really doesn't bother me that much, but it's still very "un-Brian")

--  The whole arrangement of "Let Him Run Wild" is nowhere near as cool as the original...it's not one particular instrument or other arrangement choice, it's the whole "feel" of the arrangement

--  The fact that "Imagination," "South American" and "Dream Angel" all sound like the same damn song (instrumentally, at least)

Like I said, overall I just don't feel that Imagination sounds like a Brian Wilson record.  Brian's arrangements never sounded cheesy and slick.  It's really a shame too, because I do like a lot of the songs on the album.

The middle section of "Your Imagination" and "She Says that She Needs Me" cause my bowels to lock every time I hear them. Hell to the yeah concerning the guitar on "Lay Down Burden". But what really brings my piss to a boil is the godawful mix. The drums specifically sound like someone taking a dead cat and swinging it against a cardboard box. The strings in "Keep an Eye on Summer" are annoying. The songs themselves for the most part sound like the folks behind American Idol decided to try to sound like Brian. I also don't like the stack of Brians...it's annoying and overdone.

Now, from "Cry" on, I like all of the songs. But before then, I honestly prefer GIOMH.

And that's a damn shame.

It's funny, Chris, but I agree with every example you gave. However, they don't bother me - and I don't know why. :) Actually, I never realized that Joe Thomas and his arrangements were looked down upon so much until threads on this board. I guess I just accepted the "feel"; it was/is contemporary and I thought Brian needed that, something new maybe. If Imagination went "back" too much, it would've been criticized as a Beach Boys' carbon copy (there were already two covers and a couple of re-writes on there already).

After reading all of this critcism, it really makes me wonder how the album got through/released without more objection....

See, though, it wasn't contemporary when it came out. It's like...say I released an album tommorrow, claiming to have the hot new sounds...and it's a disco record.

Put it like this...it was the Adult Contemporary sound...of 1991.

And that type of sound is also all over Beckley-Lamm-Wilson's Like a Brother. The MOR sound is why I like I Wish For You but not LOVE it. Same goes for Imagination.

It's so bland, whereas Wilson's arrangements, traditionally speaking, are anything but. It kind of meshes into one echoey thing. There's nothing happening in the chorus of Imaginations 'LHRW', for instance - just things following the chords, but the normal version has everything playing some melody or bassline, or something. And that infernal nylon guitar reminds me of the saxophone in bad 80's cop movies  ::)

I for one, like the clarinets on She says... Just a shame they were tacked onto the beginning and not more effectively utilised.
I don't know how others feel about this, but it's also an immense letdown considering what we've heard of the Paley sessions, which would have been close to a perfect comeback, in production terms.

Off topic, I really like the version of OCA on VDP's "Moonlighting: Live at the Ash Grove" album.
Sorry for the digression, hope it will be worth it to someone out there... :)

Good catch, but 2 things about that. 1) The album was mainly recorded in the early 90s, so that's a bit more excusable

and

2). It *still* sounds fresher and more substantial compared to the plastic sound of Imagination.

Plastic? Yeah, that's the best way to describe its antiseptic sound. Call it the "Plastic Oh HELL No Band".








Yes, that was a terrible pun. So sue me.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, just compare the title track of "Gettin' In Over My Head" to the version from the Paley sessions.

b00ts

P.S. I know what you're going to say - "the Paley sessions version isn't that great" or some such thing?

I will tell you the single worst (or most inappropriate) moment on Imagination: on the song "Happy Days," there is a what sounds like a Fender Rhodes piano which is treated to hell with some sort of chorus effect, or perhaps 3 different chorus effects. During the second bridge of the song, the cheesy Fender Rhodes does a fill that qualifies as the last appropriate musical arrangement on the album.

At 1:16, Brian sings "Oh, God, the pain" and the Fender Rhodes does this slick little "answer" riff that sounds almost like it was put there to ameliorate the sentiment of that lyric. It is sort of like watching someone confess to all of their deepest insecurities and fears, and then being hit in the face with a key lime pie.

The 4-note riff is hoary and cheesy in this context, and it serves to underscore what was wrong with the mismatched collaboration that was Wilson/Thomas.
 
A close runner-up is the saxophone in the dissonant verses. "Let's make this a little more palatable for the people, shall we?" Sheriff John Stone, you can also check out the difference between the original Sherry, She Needs Me and the version on Imagination, which is, for my money, one of the album's best songs both in arrangement and performance. Still, it is easy to tell the difference between a Brian Wilson arrangement and a Joe Thomas arrangement.

b00ts

sh*t, the Paley version IMHO is in the top 5 off all Brian solo recordings.  What is crazy to me is that auto-tune was not used in that version (but was in the Thomas version), yet the Paley cut has better vocals.


I actually kinda like that. Really, I like the keyboards on that cut. I don't know if it's actually Brian playing or not (there are several inaccuracies in the album credits anyway so who the hell knows) but it sounds like his playing, and the chord structure sure does. To me, "Happy Days" is to Imagination what "Male Ego" is to BB85...the most Brian moment on the disc, even if it was someone else producing.

I think for me it's the dull a/c lyrics that ruin it. She Says That She Needs Me and Happy Days lost all their original quirkiness. Very bland sound all throughout the album. I hate the remakes which are pure filler, South American has that Kokomo sound but may be even worse. The vocals are ok for later Brian, the title cut works for me, I feel Melinda's or Joe Thomas' ideas in here. Meaning that their goal was to make Brian into a safe artist without any real humor or oddity.

Actually I think that was the plan. Pissed me the f*** off, that's for sure.

One of my top favorite BW solo records is Imagination. It was one of the first BW solo albums I had (right next to BW88)

The re-do of Keep and Eye on Summer sounds like an outtake from Nashville Sounds

You know what? Let me listen to it again... haven't listened to it in a few years, so maybe my opinion has changed.My initial reaction was liking it except for the 1st 2 tracks, but the more I heard it the less I liked it.

It's a good album; it just lacks that Brian Wilson touch. I remember when it came out, the production was almost offensive to my ears, as the trend in popular music by that time had been away from such obviously digital sounding recordings.. of course, nowadays, the pendulum has swung back that way.

Someone commented upon the release of Imagination that a digital hum could be heard in the background of the album, specifically during silent points such as the beginnings of the songs. It's true, and I wonder why it is? I don't hear it on other albums from the era, and I'm sure Joe Thomas had a Pro Tools setup that was capable of decent sounding recordings.

P.S. - Billy, in 1995, Auto-Tune like the kind we have today didn't exist, or if it did, it was not as easy to use - one could program his voice into a Synclavier or similar and tune it that way, but it would sound obviously doctored.. much more obviously than it does even on today's ham-fisted productions.  I am not sure whether the Paley sessions were recorded to analog or digital tape, but either way, likely not to an HDD recorder or computer.

Yeah, I know when Auto-Tune was released...in 1997. When was Imagination recorded mainly? So yeah, much like the 85 album,  the hot "new" technology was overused to the point where it sounded tinny. Difference was, BB85 had great vocals, and nobody will argue with the fact that Carl's vocals were passionate-sounding. Imagination was indeed recorded in Pro-Tools, which is fine in and of itself. If you got somebody running the board who don't know what they're doing, though, you can end up with all sorts of problems. Hence, the crappy Fisher-Price  sounding guitars on a lot of tracks and the world's quietest drums. Just got through relistening to it, and there are 2 main issues... most of the songs are mediocre at best , and the mix is brittle-sounding.
"Lay Down Burden" is a key offender. Great song, great vocals...but man that guitar is weak.  You hear very little of the ring...I dunno how to  say this right and have this make sense... it's like someone was playing a guitar, and everything was recorded: the fingers moving across the fret, their watch accidently hitting the string...everything except the actual note. I mean, you actually do hear it, but it's quieter than the noise! It's as if it was a guitar sample on a cheap-ass keyboard was overdubbed with someone trying to make it sound as if they were playing the guitar. Now, obviously, that's not what happened, but it comes off that way.

True story...in 2000 I was in 3rd year of  college, majoring in audio engineering,  and we were going to mix in Pro Tools for the 1st time. We were played two albums recorded in Pro Tools. One was some rock album, don't know who it was (it wasn't my type of deal) , but it sounded good, albeit a bit too bright. Then we were played Imagination (which I was kinda shocked by) as an example of a bad digital recording.

Sigh. Good thing nobody knew I was a Brian Wilson mark, huh?

This part of  Sean O'Hagan's account of his aborted collaboration with Brian and the Beach Boys sums it up for me:

It was during this period that Brian was being coerced away from Andy Paley (by wife Melinda, according to observers), toward Joe Thomas, a former WBA wrestler, co-founder of the Adult Contemporary stronghold, River North Records, and producer of, as O'Hagan puts it, "real right-wing country artists." Wilson's lack of interest in the O'Hagan project manifested itself at dinner that night.

"I could already tell it was never going to happen," says O'Hagan. "The whole thing was absurd. As far as I can see, Joe Thomas hasn't got a clue about Brian Wilson or his legacy. It's all just 'Little Deuce Coupe' to him. He wanted Brian to make a big Eighties ballad record, all cavernous snares. He kept referring to Brian's potential as an Adult Contemporary crossover artist. I sad, 'Don't you realize Brian Wilson is essentially a 20th-century avant-garde pop genius?' And he went, 'Avant-garde? Not the Brian Wilson I know'

That does sum it up quite well actually.  Thomas wanted Brian to sound like a different artist than he is/was.

But I also think it's fair to say that Brian in 1996-1997 was not in any way an avant garde artist.

I think Imagination made sense at the time. In retrospect (as with so many things BW-related), it looks different. We now know that Brian was capable of more. At the time, it was much less clear.

Yes. Your post is very much how I feel. And, again, I'm not really arguing "for" Joe Thomas or his style, just stating my feelings....

At the time, Brian was not very creative in the avant garde sense. He was probably going through some shock as he was entering into his REAL solo career, whether he liked it or not. I would imagine there was a lot of "Yeah, OK...." eminating from him. New marriage, new house, new friends, new studios, new collaborators, new producers, new record company, new dogs, etc. So, I guess the adult contemporary route was the safest? I mean, in 1996 was Brian ready to explore something...deep?

claymcc, you stated that "We now know that Brian was capable of more." Since that time, we got Getting In Over My Head, What I Really Want For Christmas, and That Lucky Old Sun. This point I will argue. I'm not sure Brian was capable of more or delivered more since Imagination - in the way of songwriting.

- Imagination
- South American
- Cry
- Lay Down Burden
- Dream Angel (I'm not EXACTLY sure how much Brian wrote)

I will put that nucleus of songs right up there with any other solo album's nucleus, including TLOS.

I think in terms of hands-on arrangements and songwriting, TLOS and its bonus tracks (and some of the Xmas album, too) suggest that Brian has more going on than I may have thought in 98. But that's obviously a personal impression.

Backing you up partially, though, in terms of songwriting, I think Cry is probably the best thing he did in the 90s. Possibly the 80s, too.

wow, really? yikes..  it's pretty bland to me, not just the production and arrangement but the song itself

best thing he did in the 80s?? what about melt away, there's so many.. cry doesn't hold a candle..

It's all about the chords and depth of feeling. A rare minor-key tune, and some of Brian's best falsetto on record in ages. Again, totally my opinion.

Cry is a song I want to like but it needs a rewrite badly. It's ok for it's era, but I can't say I play it much.

That's exactly how I feel too.  It's so rare to hear a minor-key Brian Wilson song, and his falsetto did indeed sound fantastic on that one.  I suppose if it were somebody else singing it, I wouldn't like it as much, but Brian really nails it.

You know I love the title track (in melody and vocals primarily, but lyrics to a smaller degree), like "Cry" to some degree, "South American" has a nice melody but that's about it for me.

Also everytime I hear the album I get a sinking feeling...perhaps best described by AGD a small time ago...

I could never put it better than that.

Stuff like this really brings up the question whether Brian's solo career is going to be remembered as one spoof after another one day.

I think Andrew is combining the filming, performance and DVD phase of the Imagination project from the actual recording. I think that promotion, in hindsight, was misdirected at best and deceptive at worst.  But Brian clearly made serious contributions to the record in terms of songwriting, vocal arranging and singing. And there are some instrumental touches that are very him as well.

Yeah, if you watch the DVD, it is clear Brian is monumentally uncomfortable. The notion of promoting the record with a live show was just dumb. But if you listen to the record, it's also clear that Brian did a lot creatively with it. Did he allow it to become swamped with Thomas? Sure. But did he want a hit? It seems that at the time he still had ambitions in that direction.

In the long run, Thomas's most positive contribution may have been to bring Brian together with Scotty, Taylor and Mertens -- the Chicago crew in the touring band.

Didn't Brian disown the album only after it was clear it wouldn't be a hit?

The thing about Brian's work is, even if the production sucks, you just know there are going to be moments of real beauty in it. Even though I really, really, really hate that 90s style of production that is all over Imagination, I love some of the harmonies. Brian was right when I said the vocals were the best part. Brian's harmonies are still head and shoulders above the norm in the pop music world. That alone makes it worth a listen.

I don't think you can say Brian is to blame for the bad production if you subscribe to the philosophy that he's not in control. Maybe apathy just set in. He didn't seem to have any allies around him, so he didn't stand up for his own ideas. I remember Carol Kaye's story about the production of Everything I Need. When was that? 1996? Apparently Brian did a beautiful production, and then "someone" came in and "modernized" it. Was that Joe Thomas? And Brian didn't have the will to stand up for his work? So I think it was possibly a matter of Joe Thomas not understanding what Brian is about, and Brian not being strong enough at the time to let him know.

As for Melinda, my impression is not that she had some evil plot against Brian, but that like Joe Thomas, she didn't understand Brian's music, and she didn't understand that MOR was already on the way out. I don't know what went on with Paley, but I think part of Melinda's desire to use Joe Thomas was simply bad taste. Maybe she's not the most sophisticated person in the world (not to mention that she had no experience in the music industry and maybe was just a casual music fan before she met Brian). And Brian isn't sophisticated either, but the best of his music is. I think, having married the guy, Melinda made the ill-advised move to try to manage him as well, and she didn't know how to do it. But one thing that can be said for her is that when she got some guidance, via Darian telling her that Joe Thomas was not doing right by Brian's music, she got rid of Joe Thomas and kept Darian. That was Darian's story, anyway.

...

There's a 'modify' button top right - click on that.

Thanks!

Isn't there also that story from Hal Blaine where he's talking about some young Wilson fanatic (but not necessarily a very smart one) producing Brian, and he gets Blaine to do a 'a three minute drum solo' over a 'a nice track', then listens to Pet Sounds for a bit, then puts wood blocks all over it, so it sounds 'like a woodshop'. All the while Brian's like 'yeah, sounds good man', as if he doesn't really care too much. I have no idea where that's from (I remember those quotes, strangely) who it was, or if i read it on here, but can someone back me up? Or are we talking about the same thing?

The only options I can think of (cos it sure as hell wasn't Joe Thomas) are Paley, Waronker (although he ain't young, and OCA doesn't sound like that) or maybe some O'Hagan sessions did happen....
Help?

Brian doesn't really like confrontation, historically speaking, so i guess he'd rather let Joe do his thang than possibly have another producer problem.

No sessions took place with O'Hagan, that's for sure.

Yeah, the Everything I Need story is pretty well established, and there is audio evidence.

Brian called the wrecking crew back together, had written a new song with Tony Asher, had everything planned out. It was for Carnie and Wendy's album.

The session players raved about it (particularly Carol, who was very present online at the time).

When the CD came out, a year or so later, a lot of Thomas-selected musicians had been overdubbed on the track. Carol was particularly peeved, I recall.

A couple of years after that, though, the original session tapes leaked. It's definitely a more honest sounding, Brian-esque track, although a tad bland for my tastes. But it's pretty clear if you compare those two versions what Joe's strengths and weaknesses were. His weaknesses -- clearly the song didn't need to do in the direction that he took it. But on the other hand, Brian and his daughters sound lovely, and there are some nice harmonies that don't exist in the earlier versions.

Yeah, and I struggle(d) with that, because we're talking about his art, and we all know there was a time when Brian would resort to confrontation FOR his art, because it was important to him.

Oh right. So Joe produced it all the way through then? I'm listening to it now, sounds more Brian-ish than Imagination.... but not much. It's a pretty song, somewhat underwhelming for the renewed Wilson-Asher partnership.... Thanks for the info. Don't suppose you could point me in the direction of somewhere i could read about it?


I suppose confronting the BB's, after a while, got to be impossible - you can't be constantly feuding with family, after all. It's other people i don't get. Landy drugged him up, so there's an excuse, but Thomas i suppose is the really baffling one - He was supposedly back in control of his life.

hypehat, I'm not directing this question directly to you, but your above quote awakened a pet peeve of mine. When Brian went solo, so many times I read about Brian's confrontations with The Beach Boys, and specifically Mike Love. My question is this: There is no doubt that Brian had to confront the group during the SMiLE sessions, and, I assume from reading that somebody (Mike?) objected to the tone/lyrics of "Til I Die" (though I don't know it to be fact). Other than SMiLE (43 years ago) and maybe "Til I Die" (a single song), when did Brian have confrontations with The Beach Boys over his music? And don't say 15 Big Ones and/or Love You, because, while portions of the group were not entirely happy with Brian's work on those albums, he was NOT confronted about them. Brian came in and quickly did his work and left. With 15 Big Ones specifically, any "problems" the group had with that work was not told to Brian's face in a confrontational manner. Maybe after the fact with the press, but not to Brian. My point is, Brian OVERWHELMINGLY had his way WITH THE BEACH BOYS. When he has chosen to work with them, he did HIS thing. They were, still are, and always will be afraid to confront him - musically.

Well I believe the Til I Die confrontation to be fact just because Bruce said so - but I'm not going to say it was Mike - but it was someone. But am I right in thinking that there was some confrontation over Old Man River? And what about the Don Was sessions? And of course there are the stories from Chuck Negron about Time To Get Alone - but I don't know if I believe that.

Regarding "Til I Die", since it was released (with much vocal contribution from Mike), depressing lyrics and all, I wonder how strong the objections were?

Yeah, there was some disagreement goin' on during the Don Was sessions, because Carl bailed. Was that directly involving Brian? I ask because I don't know.

I'm not sure Sheriff, but here is Bruce's quote which can be found on page 144 in David Leaf's book: "I remember Brian playing it for the band and one member of the band didn't understand it and put it down, and Brian just decided not to show it to us for a few months. He just put it away. I mean, he was absolutely crushed. This other person just didn't like it, but Brian cut it anyway."

I don't really know enough about the Was sessions to be honest, I just know that Carl walked out.

It's normal to have members of a group dislike a song here and there. I think Mike and Brian brought out good things in each other, and like SJS said Mike always backed down and did his work. Cabinessence and 'Til I Die (if it is true) prove that.

Hype -- what happened was the Brian produced the first session solo. He also recorded some scratch vocals and later recorded an early attempt at Carnie and Wendy's vocals. These two versions were out on some of the Paley sessions boots (although they have no connection to Paley or those earlier sessions).

At some point later, Joe Thomas overdubbed a crew of his own musicians on the track. That's why, if you look at the CD credits, there are two (or three!) bassists, two drummers, etc. And the dreaded nylon guitar makes its appearance. The song definitely then began to sound less like Brian's bare-bones track and more like Imagination.

Fascinating fact: Jeff Foskett re-recorded the song in an arrangement much closer to the original on his 12X12 album of a few years back. Darian plays several instruments on it and Brian sings backup (poorly).

What exactly was the deal with that, anyway? From what I've gathered, Brian wasn't too crazy about him personally, but have not gotten any more detail.

Very poorly.

You mean like when he gave up on SMiLe?

Doesn't Jeff use Brian's original basic track & bvs ? Sounds like it to me.

Till I Die was worked very soon after Sunflower was completed. I don't think Bruce's lying, but maybe Brian was just taking his time, aware that it would be some months before another album would be released. He knew that in the end Warner would ask them where the 'Brian Wilson tracks' were.

We sometimes make a big deal about Brian's and Dennis' songs being rejected, but do we stop and wonder if any of the other 'untalented ones' were too, if it "crushed their feelings" or something wussy like that? I've heard a (probably) apocriphical story about Mike presenting Viggie to the group in the early 70s and Carl laughing it off.

Your point's right - I worded it a little one-sided, i guess. I wasn't pointing out the confrontations that did happen - more stuff that didn't happen. Brian, being musical don of the group up until 67, couldn't have relished the lack of control, relatively speaking, that occured after that. Brian didn't confront the band because they're his family, which is what i said. It's harder to bust up with family, which i believe is what would have happened had he forced his creative hand again after Smile and not let the rest of the band contribute. If it was Brian and four other guys, he might have been more forceful and could have even kicked them out, but he certainly feels a different set of obligations to his two brothers and cousin.
He forced Pet Sounds and Smile (for a time) on them, despite their objections, but someone as sensitive as Brian can't really keep up that affront. Especially when the results aren't half bad.
And i didn't specifically say Mike, anyway.  The band also intially balked at Mt. Vernon, and at the Adult/Child stuff, but these are admittedly somewhat minor.
I think Warner's-wise, the label were wanting 'Brian' songs, so Mike, if indeed he did object (we might be assuming a little too hastily here) had to yield sooner rather than later.

AGD: They're similar, but not identical to my ears. Plus, the Foskett version includes the "Sandy She Needs Me" riff added to the bridge and outro -- the 96 BW track definitely does not.

Sounds entirely likely - Viggie (= Virginia) was Mike's English girlfriend in the early 70s, so I can easily believe it was written back then. Lovely little tune.

Viggie is a nice one and like I said before you are going to have dissension in bands. I mean they recorded regularly for 20 years so there were a lot of songs that probably didn't go over with the other members no matter who wrote it.

Based on the sh*t that O'Hagan talked about Brian after they met, I can't blame Brian for not warming to him. He sounds like a weasel. His music is alright, but very derivative of the Beach Boys, or at least the "Hawaii" album is.

I can't and won't speculate on the guy's weaselness (great word, if I do say so myself), but yes, his music has certainly been a pretty clear homage to Beach Boys, Bacharach and a few other artists. It's not just Hawaii, Gideon Gaye is as much or more along those lines. Regardless of why the Beach Boys or Brian didn't work with him, I'm glad it didn't happen in that it would just be working with a worshipper or imitator. He's good at re-creating those sounds, but if you're among the originators of those sounds, do you want to hire your own imitator to get you there?

And before it is said, I don't think that the Wondermints crew fits into that same category. While they can imitate the Beach Boys sound, their original music is far more inspired by than derivative of, to my ears.

I enjoyed "Hawaii," but it was a bit twee for my tastes, and it seemed like a pale photocopy of Brian's production ingenuity and songwriting inventiveness. I am a big fan of Stereolab and the work O'Hagan does with them is excellent. I don't doubt O'Hagan's story, but I think that his coming out publicly and saying all of these things reflected poorly on him.

I agree with you about the Wondermints: they are Beach Boys-inspired, but they have their own style. They are also much more soulful than the High Llamas, so it's a great thing that Brian ended up working with them rather than O'Hagan, and their collaboration has obviously proved to have some longevity.

Coincidentally, this morning, a car parked outside my house was blasting the rough mix of "Your Imagination," with Brian humming a rough verse melody - I don't know if this is the version of the track that people were talking about earlier in the thread, before Brian lost his enthusiasm, but I can tell you that the chorus vocals are all intact and the hummed verse melody is somewhat different from the released version (and obviously incomplete.) Is this the mix of the song from before Joe Thomas took over? It sounds much more Brian-esque in its arrangement, and the electric guitars are much more prominent. It also sounds like there is a totally different drum track. FInally, the ending harmony sounds different from the released version, and somewhat dissonant.

I also heard (on the radio in Luxembourg a few weeks ago) the early, incomplete mix of "Everything I Need." It is an excellent song in all its incarnations, in spite of its shortcomings, but this version kind of upset me as it sounded much different and more BRIAN than the released Wilsons version. The Foskett version is probably the best of the three, but had this one been completed, it would have been a great addition.

b00ts

This is the post of 2009! Couldn't agree more. It has the sound of this cheap trick song(can't stop falling in love) that was a hit in 1990:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyIivJoETk

Didn't Brian have a two record deal with Giant. What happened to that, did it just fall away after he and Joe parted ways? I would have thought he'd have to buy his way out of it? For me the first two songs on Imagination are good, although the sterility of the sound means they are a guilty pleasure. Does anyone play this album when they have visitors around? The rest of it just doesn't do it for me at all. I love the Paley sessions, man they really screwed up putting Imagination out instead.  I wonder if the Paley stuff will ever get an official release.

For me, it's the second half of the album that is better. From 'Dream Angel' onwards I don't cringe as much.

Honestly, Imaginations is my least favorite BW album mainly because of the production. GIOMH is about the same but the productions is much better, perhaps working with his current band helps! However, TLOS is his very best IMO. BWPS is also great, but at this point, I prefer the original. :)

I just noticed something! The distorted guitars in Your imagination sounds a little bit like guitars in This whole world. There's probably something about it that BW loves even though it sounds horrible on YI.

Maybe we have to blame BW after all. All along I figured Joe Thomas was behind it.

(adore the break at 2:20)

I think Giant folded.