The Smiley Smile Message Board

When I listen to the vocals only version of Forever, there is a very beautiful duet with Dennis and Mike. It almost brings me to tears, not just for its beauty, but also in the context of the strained relationship that these two had.

I also find it touching how they would jokingly admire each other in a late 70s concert while performing Surfer Girl.

I feel that if you take away the music, money (mostly Mike), drugs (Dennis) and girls, that they would've been very close friends. I think it was these things that was at the root of their dislike of each other. If there was no BBs, and they worked together as mechanics or something, I think they would be very close, and Dennis would still be alive. And this message board wouldn't exist.

I'm sure that Mike has at times missed Dennis' company....

Totally agree :)

Intriguing.

I'd bet on the drugs and alcohol thing. I'd say that Mike (who, I believe, never partook) had serious problems with Dennis because of this. Users tend to befriend users. Bar buddies can spend endless hours in each others company without saying much of any importance. Sort of a silent conspiracy.

Users usually have an altered personality when under the influence (in Denny's case, um, most of the time?). The highs, the comedowns, the manic periods (esp. cocaine), the vomiting, the impulsivity... I can't see Mike, striving for tranquility (see his meditating), aching to have Denny in his vicinity.

That discounts the fact that these two were already known for getting into regular fist-fights in '62 when drugs and alcohol were a non-factor. The main problem was a personality conflict at the most fundamental level. One guy was cocky, calculating, mature(for the time), and liked to be shown respect...the other a free thinker, bohemian(yes even in '62), immature with no fear, and a quick temper. Mike looked down on Dennis cause he was a dumb kid. Dennis made a point of needling Mike whenever he could cause he thought Mike was a pompous stiff...he was younger, he was good at pushing Mike's buttons, and it was part of the chemistry that existed in their relationship from the very beginning. Yes there were periods where they got along, they even lived together shortly in '63...and they certainly made a formidable team when they were on the same page, which was rare. Once a competition for girls was in play, it escalated. The drugs and alcohol and money didn't help, that's for sure...but these guys had a history of violence between each other that preceded that by many years. That's not to say there wasn't love between them...they were like brothers...they shared blood and genes...neither one possessed the best qualities of the other. I wish they had found a way to collaborate more because when they did it worked.

Did Mike really not think Dennis was worth saving? And of course I know that's impossible to answer entirely, in that we can't know what Mike thought. But didn't the band help Dennis go through rehab on occasion, just like Brian?

And yet... after that Mike wrote some great lyrics for Dennis - "Sound Of Free", "Pacific Ocean Blues" and above all "Only With You". Go figure.

Wasn't Only With You a Mike lyric that was sitting around which Dennis set a melody to?

Mike smoked weed for a few years.

I would say that lack of maturity had a lot to do with it as well. Even in the 70s. I believe that its a lot harder for people to mature when they are given so much at a young age. Same with young actors and athletes. I knew that as early as 62, they had their disputes. But the BBs were already big. I guess you also have to factor in that they were around each other a lot more. Does anyone know if they had trouble getting along pre BBs?

I'm trying to understand something here   "...competition for girls..." ???? Between Dennis & Mike? I can't see any female in her right mind even considering Mike with Dennis nearby.

Well, considering how many times he's been married, it's not that much of a stretch. Besides, bald is sexy. I mean, look at me. :lol

Lead singers and a show-pony guitarist have it over the rest of a band anyday.

ok, but money is sexier. ;)

I would've chosen Dennis over Mike anyday. Mike is a pompus ass and always acted like that in public. When I saw the Mike/Bruce show 2 years ago, I had a second row seat in the center. That Mike still thinks he's a lady's man. He loves to give you that long stare while he's singing, but I really wanted to puke.  If he only knew........ I kept thinking about how crappy I felt he treated Dennis. I still, to this day, feel Mike had alot to do with Dennis' solo career being put on the back burner. Just my thoughts.......

I hate to say it even though I am a huge fan of Dennis and his solo work, but I firmly believe that it was Dennis who was the closest person responsible for his career being put on the back burner. People just like to blame Michael and Al because of the so-called "ultimatum" that was issued in '77 if Dennis went on the mini solo tour. Dennis was still recording after that. Sure, he didn't do the tour, but he still was making a conscious effort to make more music on his own. Then by roughly the middle of 1979 it was pretty much over. Dennis was too scattered by then, and while I'm sure it wasn't a conscious decision of his to just put solo work on the back burner, the damage was done. The fistfight at the Universal Amphitheater in '79 was probably the catalyst for the downward spiral. Being kicked out of the Beach Boys meant no access to money, which was what the man needed to even record.

Although Mike remembers writing the lyrics for "Sound Of Free," he told me he has no memory of co-writing "Only With You" and "Pacific Ocean Blues."

Probably one of those incidents that (I believe) Gregg Jakobson mentioned about Dennis. Even if another person contributed a couple of words, a line, a verse, Dennis gave them 50% of the credit. I don't think the Only With You lyrics are anyone's but Michael's, though. Note the absence of ten to fifteen "I love you" phrases, for instance. :) (Kidding)

Really? I 'd have guessed that the lyrics were Mike adapting to Dennis style, but with his own words.

I love Dennis but I have to agree that he ultimately was the one who destroyed himself. If Dennis had sobered up in 1977 and seriously tackled the tour there is no way he would have been kept out of the group-not with Carl alive. That is IF he was together. Mike could be a jerk but I also wouldn't want to work with someone who shows up too bombed to play properly. By 1977 Brian, Dennis, and Carl, were wrecking shows with their on stage behavior. It's a fact, and you cannot blame Mike Love for any of that. This has nothing to do with music or creative direction, Brian and Dennis towered over Mike there, but who would you rather count on as a team member,  a hardworking egotist, or a kind hearted creative hard core addict who is off the wagon. By 1977-78 it wasn't "Hey I do this in my off time but don't let it have an effect on the show". I have never seen three people more adversely affected on stage (and even at times in the studio) then the Wilson's. Mike's taking the easy route killed the Beach Boys creatively, but so did drugs and booze.

Honest to goodness I like them all, but I also see their faults. I don't idolize anyone like so many do to Brian or Dennis. In fact that may have been what first warped their reality. That's not to say they weren't very unique artists, who deep down had good souls. In the end nobody is a hero or villain, it's way too complicated for that. I think talking the middle ground and seeing them as normal human beings is the only thing that's healthy.

Mike I trust what you are saying, but did Dennis really wreck Beach Boys shows during 1977? On Largo he does a few tipsy intros but nothing destructive.  Brian I would also say was never truly comfortable on stage with the Beach Boys in the 1970s after the brief tour in 1970 and did okay some nights (from a brief look at Eric's site listings) and not on others, but I don't think he intentionally tried to screw up any of the shows until 1980. I've never seen Brian on stage, but from what I've seen on youtube I'm convinced he was trying to ruin certain songs on 80s clips. In any case you know more than I do...

I've never heard your angle that as long as he was together and Carl was around Dennis never would've been kept out of the Beach Boys...but it makes perfect sense.

Yes as the final full shows Brian did before any vocal or neurological damage (IE the violently shaking leg in 1976) that 1970 tour and the first two Whiskey gigs were the last time he was probably 100 percent involved with what was going on or interested. The third Whiskey gig he seemingly was in a panic so I don't count that. I'm not forgetting the 1971 and 1973 cameos but he wasn't willing to do a full show so it doesn't count. He did seem to be pretty good in some of the 1983 shows, but he wasn't featured strong on every song, and couldn't do his old parts etc.

I don't think they were trying to ruin concerts. Brian may have acted out a little, but in their state I bet they thought they were great. I guess I hold Dennis up to the high standard he displayed on the 1976 It's OK special. If he had stayed to that level I can't see how he would have had a problem being a successful Beach Boy or solo artist.  In 1977 he was better then he was say by 1979, but it was obvious to me that he had already gone into a decline that was starting to hurt the shows. There were times in the 1973-74 period that Dennis threw off the shows slightly by being drunk, but he still looked healthy enough and sang well enough to where he could get away with it better. Once he was back on drums he was more vital and it was more important that he be clear headed. There was an incident in early 1975 but his first two years back on drums seem to have pretty consistent. Looking at the Largo or even the Australia tape Dennis is not nearly as off as his brothers, but I can't say he is in his absolute prime either. That said in the studio during 1977-78 he seems pretty on his game, but every sequential session probably came harder by the time he started full force on Bambu.

So you mean Leaf, Melinda and Landy aren't always responsible for the bad press Love gets?! I thought we were living in revisionist revisionist times!  Gee whiz, who'd a thunk it?   ::)

My thanks go out to Jon Stebbins and Ed Roach for correcting me on the personality clash/drugs issue. There's always something to learn here.

I'd also like to add my thanks to the fact that we are really lucky to have so many knowledgeable people who post on this board, willing to share their time and reminiscences with other fans.

This is really what keeps the BBs alive, more so than record labels and even the still-touring incarnations of Wilsons/Loves/Jardines.

Thanks!

Wot he said.

 Donna K. - Sounds like Mike Love got ya with the "Stink Eye".......

Hehe - yes, the Lovester has this 'Medusa-like' quality. In around 1976, he cast that eye on his cousin Brian. As a result, Brian got paralysed and was bed-ridden for 8 years straight.

 T H D - He went all the way to India to learn the "Stinky Eye" sutra and has traveled
 the globe sending it.

 
 

The lyric to "POB" was written, and phoned into the studio, five hours hours after Dennis played the track to Mike down the phone. So Mike said in an interview.

 Mr. Doe - True of False

 In 1978 a six month intensive “Stink Eye” training course was given in Switzerland.


 God Bless Ya
 Outie 315

My feelings as to why I think Mike had alot to do with Dennis' solo career being put on the back burner have to do with the fact that Mike was jealous of Dennis emerging as a solo artist, while he couldn't, (hey I HAVE heard Mike's country album...yuck), all the attention from the gals to Dennis and not Mike, and Mike being a jackass in general. I'm sure there are many reasons for Dennis' downfall, but I feel Dennis was always searching for the respect and love he never could feel deep down. That, in a nutshell will drive anyone down the wrong path. You get berated by your father long enough, you start believing it. I don't care if Mike did help with some lyrics, maybe he wanted to ride on Dennis' tailcoat or tail feathers, or whatever. Who knows

I personally feel the gals that married Mike must've done so for the money. What other possible reason could there have been????

Can you tell I don't personally like the guy???? I even through out the program that he signed and didn't give it a second thought!

Just being an armchair psychiatrist here....IMHO.

Seriously though, you can't blame Mike for having a distaste for Dennis.  How civil could you be to someone who had sex with your wife?

And who went to bat for Mike when all that wacky stuff went down?

 Bruce Johnston!!!!!!!!!!

She could have said NO. It's not like he raped her.......

Trying to wrap my mind around the concept of any woman saying "no" to Dennis Wilson... nope, can't do it.  ;D

Brings to  mind the comment by a totally deadpan Brian a few years ago re: Dennis - "he had intercourse with many women... Mike's wife, my wife..."

And your daughter?

How would that let Dennis off the hook of being despica......oh......you're kidding......

Small point of order - Mike has never admitted that Shawn was his daughter, in public at least.

And Dennis did marry her.  :)

Let's see if I can get this right. Mike didn't want Dennis to be successful, but he wanted to ride on Dennis' tailcoat or tail feathers? Is that possible?

Can you elaborate how Mike "had a lot to do with Dennis' solo career being put on the back burner"?

And, why don't you care if Mike DID (emphasis is mine) help with some lyrics? Dennis did.
 

I was just listening to "Live at Carnegie Hall -1972" in the car, and at the end of "Only With You" , which by the way, sounds fantastic, Carl said "Thank you. That was written by Dennis and Michael"

Take it for what it's worth!

My mom didn't say no ;)

It's hard to belive he was with his cousin's wife, thats one thing but, your brothers wife..Did he really fool around with brians wife, or is that a rumor with no proven facts.

By the way..what year did this happen with mikes wife.

I have a younger sister and can't imagine being with her husband, it's not right.

I know all about shawn, she was very young, a teenager when dennis got with her. I wonder if he had a sexual disorder.

Denni,

I think that it's a fair thing to say that Dennis was like any other man when it came to sex, but he just couldn't wait until he was out of a relationship with one woman to go onto the next. But, then again, many men are like that. You have to remember, during the time he was flitting from one flower to another,  there was this notion going around at the time called Free Love. Now there's these things called STD's and AIDS.

There have been std's around decades before Dennis was born. Again I love the guy but he had no scruples whatsoever when it came to sex. Sure Mike was pretty bad too, but not to the frankly distrubing level Dennis was. I do think he had a problem, and by 1983 the free love thing  had been over for a decade.

I think it happened in 1968-69.

Let's just say Dennis loved the ladies and had many, many, many.............

Anything was fair game  ;D

Denni,

I had never heard that Dennis had sex with Brian's wife. It might have happened; other people on the board know more than I do.

But Brian did have sex with his own wife's sister.

 >:D

How do people know the details of the Beach Boys' personal lives with such certainty? 

Ouch!  Ed, how about posting another one of your great photos.  I feel like it's traveling back in time to see some of your candid shots of the group.

Apparently, Dennis wasn't the only one who went around with Marilyn, at least according to Rocky Pamplin. Rocky also claimed she was with Carl at one point.

For Sure. Did he ever truly love anyone or everyone.

It's like they say....The family that plays together, stays together! ;)

OMG :o...Did they all swing.

A family affair.

How much you want a bet that he would remember very well if they were hits? In fact, If POB the album went platinum, I am sure that Mike would start 'remembering' other songs that he came up with a comma or something and try to gain 50% credit for it. Then he would claim that his comma is what made the song so succesful.

Amen to that!

Denni, quoting from memory here...

Dennis had a big heart. And if he loved someone he did it for the full 200%. As in everything he did in his life (and I also mean the positive aspects of his personality). If you're able to find books on Dennis (and there are several around, albeit often out of print) you'll read several examples on them. From his second wife, Barbara, it was often said that she was the best thing that ever happened in his life. But Dennis never had inner piece in his heart, there was always turmoil in his life. And it seemd he also enjoyed that fast life, at least from the outside it seemed so. And that contradiction must have slowly ruined him.

Again, based on from what I've read and seen.

Brian stated that in a UK music magazine interview, out of the blue, oh, three-four years ago. I snorted tea all over the page.  ;D

I think if you had to point at one, it would be Barbara - most of his friends say she was the best thing that ever happened to him (with Harmony a close second).

Not Christine McVie?  ::) ;D

Hey, they did supposedly write some beautiful music together. Weren't they even supposed to perform it live at one point, but couldn't get it together? I'm sure they were co-enablers at the very least. :(

Wasn't the POB/Bambu release last year greeted by unanimous praise, not just by Dennis/BB fans, but by almost all music publications. I also remember it winning end-of-the-year awards in some polls for reissue of the year. I don't remember reading or hearing anything from Mike Love trying to get any recognition or credit for the songs he contributed lyrics to. Do you?

I remember reading that quote from Brian about Marilyn and Dennis. I think Marilyn has denied it. And for what it's worth, Brian is not always the most reliable source. But yeah, the affair between Brian and Marilyn's sister did happen. 

(http://www.nationalboard.org/images/site_img/large/Love.jpg)


"Hey man, that hit 30 years too late. And how many records did it sell, huh? How does it compare to the platinum-selling smash that we recently had? You know, a little song called 'Kokomo' ? I don't even remember my dead cousin asking me to add my postive and positively groovy lyrical musings to his downer-inducing songs. J'ai Guru Dev!"

 I think that that's a little too dark for a laughing smiley after all. Great photo, though.