The Smiley Smile Message Board

...I mean, when did the BBs start to imitate themselves? This strange group never seemed to answer to the demands of PR men and a supposed 'target audience' (OK, they made hits, but so what?). I have this theory that many artists, when they really tend to dry up a bit, or get into personal trouble, start to follow a 'script', to try to fit into their own niche they once created themselves. 'Please let me sound like myself', something like that.

For me, the BBs had that moment with 'M.I.U. Album'. '15BO' and 'Love You' both were still bold attempts, with the latter one obviously being a true landmark. But with 'M.I.U.', we got 'Kona Coast' (the true forerunner of 'KoKoMo', and I like that one better). And 'Peggy Sue'. The BBs slowly turning into their own tribute band. Yes, 'My Diane' was a true flicker of hope. Dennis' courteous gifts to 'L.A. Album' just saved that one (HTCN being THE utmostest worstest attempt by any major band to pander to a current craze). 'KTSA' never really worked for me (the production is so bland). '1985 - The Beach Boys' - trying to fit into Steve Levines '80s straitjacket. 'Still Cruisin''... no. Again, a tribute album to themselves.

Any thougts, folks?

I reckon the BB were always entangled by the industry. In the mid-70s the music industry realised that 50s and early 60s nostalgia was big money - Endless Summer being the catalyst for the prioritisation of financial considerations of the band and organisation. Beyond Endless Summer, money really came to the fore, as I believe many others have written. Love You - great album - but can be seen as an unintended by-product of "Brian Is Back" - which only really existed as a way of getting a lucrative new deal. And I am sure that many were dismayed at the "strangeness" of the final "product". Kokomo was no accident - there was a big 60s nostalgia element to the mid-late 80s, with Sgt Pepper being released on CD, and the increasing movie/music tie-ups which dominated the 80s and 90s. At the end of the day, the Beach Boys played this game. I don't even think they'd dried up - at least, there's enough evidence from Dennis and Brian's solo work since '77 to show that the songs were still being written - but they tried to follow the money, pure and simple. Mike always felt sure he knew where the pot of gold was buried; to be fair, he found a few bits.

Of course you could go back to 1968 in order to identify what probably was the first ever BB tribute song to themselves, "Do It Again". The music, however, was still very satisfying (as were the lyrics, mind you) and by then they didn't produce whole albums that would mainly evoke backwards-looking images of the sun and the surf.

The "It's OK" TV special, while probably plenty of fun to watch, strikes me as one of the first occasions when it was clearly all about past glories. I agree that 15 Big Ones itself, while not perfect, still had a lot to offer; it was Brian Wilson's mad jukebox album and that, artistically, is a lot more intriguing to me than the group singing about "keepin' the summer alive". In a way it always seems to me like the group got rid of the trademark BW quirkiness quite deliberately after Love You didn't sell, and that ended much of their initial originality.

For me it was 15BOs though I like the album. I think it's the BBs' own belief that they needed Brian back to succeed, whereas in fact they'd been getting along just fine with their previous albums, even though there'd been gap.

It went from the progressive nature of SF/SU/H/C&TP to '50s and '60s covers and pop songs (albeit some of them great pop songs).  Dennis was still  capable, Carl was still key, the others could still cut it and Brian was capable of great contributions. They just got overawed by their own Brian-led legacy.

Perhaps...

I would go a little bit later. Yes, they started the nestalgia (spell?) thing in the mid 70s. But they did have one last proggressive album with LALA. I think they were going back in forth in the late 70s but by KTSA, they had pretty much gone to nestalgic. Although, I would say that some of the music in KTSA was fairly proggressive and modern, the lyrics certainly weren't. But when Carl left in 1981 and Brian and Dennis were fired, there was no looking back. Or all looking back.

...as in: 'Looking Back With Love'?

I will get my coat then...

I'd go as far as to say "the rot" set in far earlier than it needed to with the Beach Boys band. It's not like they gracefully faded away, like say - Status Quo - they made a deliberate decision to dumb-down long before the expression had even been invented.   Given that even now Brian is capable of knocking out some good tracks., I reckon most of the issues related to actual management of band, or lack of. Despite what people say, a Wilson-brothers Beach Boys band could have stuck it out and made decent music till the early 90s - and the Dennis' fate was, I think, absolutely avoidable.

Harsh but fair.

Iv'e often wondered, and even discussed it here;   How on earth did a band who had just completed an album like Holland, which was both of high quality and creativity, and of the times, fall so quickly to an oldies band doing covers and bad imitations of themselves from a decade earlier?

I like to think the final nail in the coffin wasn't till California Calling

 :lol :lol :smokin

The cover of Keepin the Summer Alive seemed like the final nail to me. Holland/Love You/POB...and tiny bits of L.A. were the last signs of real progression.

\

The  best track on KTSA for me is When Girls Get Together (a controversail one) and that is why I agree with you.

Another fine call. Yes, going by the artwork you are dead right. It ranks among the worst covers for any major artist ever. L.A. had those nice Neon Park (a.o.)postcards, and then... that...

Hey now, the cover sucks but the music is great.

I really want to hate KTSA I swear, but 90% of the music is just so damn good

For me, the question is when did the Beach Boys stop producing a "Beach Boys" album (not so much the sound as the "topics"). Summer Days (and Summer Nights!) may have been the last giving-the-public-what-they-expected album. Pet Sounds was fabulous but really was "Brian Wilson presents Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys."  SMiLE would have forever altered expectations about future BB albums/songs (as did Sgt. Pepper for the Beatles). In each subsequent album they still sounded like the Beach Boys (vocals) but were always trying to reinvent themselves (almost changing their name at one point). Their post SD (&SN!) legacy is amazing, enjoyable, and mostly excellent music, but it seems to me this era was a tension between not-sounding like Shut Down Part 3 and yet being who they were, the Beach Boys.  I love the music but growing up with them was a roller coaster ride!

Nice, how one question can be answered in numerous ways, all with good reasons.

Love You, as groundbreaking musically as it was for the Beach Boys/Brian, was often lyrically a throwback to their early career - Roller Skating Child is the most obvious, but Love is a woman, Night was so Young, I'll Bet He's Nice call to mind Today/Summer Days to me.  The lyrical sophistication Jack Reilly brought has disappeared.  then MIU, where the production as well as most of the songs deliberately tried to "bring back" the classic Beach Boys sound - Kona Coast (Hawaii), She's got Rhythm (an updated Dance Dance Dance), won't you come out tonight, etc.  MIU is where a Beach Boy fan realized the progressive, groundbreaking days were over and all we could expect in the future was familiar retreads of the classic Beach Boys sound.  Not that there's anything wrong with that . . . if anyone should be allowed to recycle Beach Boy classic songs in slightly new forms, it should be the Beach Boys.  Isn't that what That Lucky Old Sun is?

I'm gonna go with Smiley Smile. It was the first album (not counting Concert and Party) where Brian STOPPED going forward, thus going backward. Technically, they were "imitating" some of the SMiLE material, albeit in a strange way. I sometimes feel Brian was almost paroding the Beach Boys' vocal sound on "Little Pad" and "She's Goin' Bald", and to a lesser extent on "Whistle In". "Good Vibrations" was approaching history by then, and the credit "Produced By The Beach Boys", while not entirely accurate, was prophetic.

There would be other high charting albums and singles, and some "works of art", but I felt Smiley Smile was a breaking point to some extent, as things were never the same.

Depends on whether we're talking the start of the end, the too-late-to-turn-back part of the end, the end of the end... Probably 15BO for me. There was some really cool stuff happening after it, and I can imagine thinking that they'd turn it around, but that's the one (along with the success of Endless Summer) where it seems they hitched their wagons to the(ir) past and finding success primarily in their understanding of the easiest selling product (which of course often wasn't a seller at all) rather than the best music they could make.

I definitely thought they'd turn it around. There was a kind of a momentum building, yes, even with the start of 15 Big Ones, thru Love You, and even parts of MIU (with Brian's clear-throated vocals).

I still think they "hitched their wagons" to the past more out of neccessity than choice. I think they realized Brian's "comeback" was gonna be short-lived, and I don't think the other guys - for whatever reasons at that time - were ready, willing, and able to do something artistic. The Dennis issue is very complicated with his solo recording career, his substance abuse, and the slow but sure drying up of material after 1977-78.

Perhaps this should have been a poll!  So many answers to this question, and they're all accurate, based on many different viewpoints. 

PS was the first major departure from the classic Beach Boys formula, and the first album since their debut to not be a smash hit.  One could speculate that in a perfect world, by following up with this new formula (SMiLE and beyond)  the BB's could have eventually made their way back to the top, especially once the Beatles were out of the way.  But the commercial disaster of SS pretty much sealed their fate.  "Do It Again" was their first nostalgic look back, but it was only for one song.  I believe that there was no trend being set at that time.  Endless Summer set the trend for the BB as an oldies act.  If it weren't for that release, I (along with a lot of other folks) probably would have never heard of the Beach Boys, at least until much later.  I remember the airwaves being literally blitzed with songs from that comp, and I didn't even know they were oldies!  And then, a year or two later, when I understood a little of what was going on, and "RnR Music" hit the airwaves, I assumed it was an oldie, too.  (Ok, so it was, but not for the Boys!)

So what I'm getting around to, is that I cast my vote for 15BO as the point where the BBs became the oldies act, set in motion by the events I cited above. 

Observation on Do It Again -

Interesting release of singles around that time:
  >Friends / Little Bird (1968) - Dennis's "single" (B side) - One of the most creative, haunting Beach Boys songs; certainly to that point
  >Bluebirds Over the Mountain / Never Learn Not to Love (1968) - Bruce's single: a Disney Girls nostalgia trip (another Dennis B side)
  >Do It Again / Wake the World (1968)  - Mike's single: Let's recreate the past (Brian's B side looks for a new day; a new start)
  >I Can Hear Music / All I Want to Do (1969)    - Carl's single: Homage to brother Brian; a Spectorian song and sound (another Dennis B side)
  >Breakaway / Celebrate the News (1969)  - Brian's single: Good-bye Capitol but also -- I need to be free from my role as a Beach Boy (another Dennis B side)
  >Cotton Fields /The Nearest Faraway Place (1970) - Al's single: Folk City! here we come, again.

As each group member began to produce music, it is interesting to see the path they each took. IMHO, totally within character. And the end of Brian Wilson's Beach Boys. The Beach Boys were now individuals writing and even producing but only singing (usually) as a unit.

1980 was the last time they were a rock band, the albums leading up all had something a little progressive to take from them, they tried. They still sounded like a powerhouse live. Carl leaves 81, they are in a holding pattern and by 83 emerge with a different sound, packaged, and like an oldies tribute act.

I just don't understand it. If they had kept on making "good" music instead of "4-chord imitations of songs Brian would've written for Beach Boys in 1964" music, they'd probably all have a lot more money by now, because their albums would've actually sold. I don't mind that they keep on selling Be True To Your School, just don't try to hide it under Some of Your Love.

It's hard to say that. Well, not necessarily--it might have been easy for you to say it. But it's hard to know that, because dedicating oneself to "good" music probably means taking a certain number of risks. And risks often don't pay off. Does the Beach Boys' previous record of succeeding artistically mean their risks were more likely to pay off with what would be considered by history to be good or salable? Didn't happen, so who knows. Frankly, even those albums that are considered artistic triumphs by BBs fans now--Friends, Sunflower, Love You--aren't exactly tearing up Billboard.

Occasionally I think it barely mattered what they would have done: their time was up, or at least running out. One guy does one thing that pleases someone; the band puts out something that kind of appeals to someone else; and meanwhile the live shows continue to draw because they include the tried and true hits. That just might be not only how it was, but how it was going to have to be.

A little thought experiment, with a few a priori assumptions:

1. The Beatles realized at a certain point (Let It Be) that it was over. Personal issues aside: they probably thought that their creative peak was behind them, disbanded, and went their separate ways. The perfect career, in other ways.

2. The Beach Boys were more glued together, because of the family ties. Perhaps the various members were not as self-assured as John, Paul, George and Ringo. I find it hard to name a single member around 1970 that would've thought: I can make it on my own.

OK, now this:

3. If point (2) had been less powerful, and the band had stopped being a group completely just after Surf's Up, what would our current perspective be?
I for one could imagine that biographies today would say the same as I wrote under point (1): the perfect career. Not overlong, ending with a mighty fine album, finishing with three true swan songs: A Day In The Life Of A Tree, 'Til I Die, and, most majestically: Surf's Up. What's more, this perfect career also included the most famous unreleased album of all time.

Any takers?

Yep, count me in to that ... in the knowledge that the Beatles did some great solo/collaborative albums at the start of the 70s, JL's "Imagine" featuring 3 of them, for example.

In this scenario I can imagine Brian popping up every now and then (no Landy, no Love You, but less hassles, and a quieter life),  Carl and Dennis forming a new band based on the live act. And who knows how long that would have lasted? Not sure about Mike and Al

in terms of live shows, the transition happened some time in 1974.  this is when you can see the focus shift from "a few oldies here and there" to the oldies being the main focus.

regarding their LPs, I think they were trying through 1980 or so.  Keepin' the Summer Alive was by no means an artistic triumph, but it was not exactly an oldies-style album either.  the 1985 album was an attempt at modern pop but by this time i think it was too late.

No doubt in a album perspective the band would have been held in a very high regard had they split up after 'Surfs Up'.
But with families to feed, bills to pay etc they had to dumb it down and milk it by touring.

I think the band may have done quite well mid 80s - mid 90s touring as a reunion act had they split about 72.

Could they have made as much for say a 2 year reunion tour as 10 years of every summer touring. Who nows?

And just think of what each of them could have accomplished on their own in that period of time between '72-'80-whatever.  Dennis would've had a thriving solo career with a string of hit albums (Carl probably would've, too).  In the "perfect world" scenario, I'm sure Brian would have collaborated with some big names, maybe produce some tracks or albums for other artists (in addition to his own solo albums).  There would have been more of some of "the Boys" taking part in backing up singers and groups (ala "Wishing You Were Here" and "Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me").  Perhaps Mike would've carried the torch by assembling a Beach Boys tribute band and doing the oldies thing himself. 

 Are you kiddin' me ?
 They wrote the book on touring!
 20% Studio & 80% Live!!!!!

I think the Stones did!

New Album every 3-7 years.
Tour.
Live album of tour.
Live video-DVD of tour.

Sex, drugs and general debauchery in between. :p

You just described every band since the '90s.  Why put out an album every year or two when you can milk it for half a decade?

Well, every old or major-label band, maybe. Plenty of very good bands still put out about an album a year while maintaining a basically never-ending tour schedule. The Fiery Furnaces are about to release their 8th album since 2003, and that's only if you don't include songwriter Matthew Friedberger's two solo albums from a couple years ago. And each of those albums is about 75 minutes of dense, complex music (think Zappa)--not tossed off blues jams. Even the one live album is an ambitious studio project, considering the unbelievable amount of editing that went into it. Of Montreal never stops touring, and has done 11 albums since 1997, not counting its own remix projects, EPs and covers projects. Not every band is pathetic, old and fat (metaphorically).

Luther, the groups you mentioned, including Zappa, along with the dozens more you could probaly come up with, never would be in a position to fill up stadiums. Or have their hits played on the radio so many years henceforth. To compare the careers of these much lesser known acts to that of The Beach Boys requires more than just a big stretch.

I don't think the Beach Boys embraced the all oldies act right after Endless Summer. If you watch them live in Australia, 1977, they only did one or two oldies. Mostly 70s tunes.

I think the perfect time for the BBs to brake up would've been after Holland.

Mike-leader of a BBs tribute band (include Ricky Henn/Dean Torrence/Dave Marks)
Al - folk music/solo, collaborator or just join Mike
Carl - producer and solo artist
Dennis - solo artist
Brian - whatever he wants to do

If I had mentioned selling out stadiums or having hits on the radio, this post might have been relevant to something I said.

I'll never understand how they went from producing a beautiful album like Surf's Up with the masterful Feel Flows to 15 Big Ones, which was generally awful.     

It took three years of doing nothing after Holland.

I think that the creative turning point came in 1974 at Carabou when they faild to come up with an album. It wasn't the first time. They failed to turn Smile into an album. But this time it was different. This time, they didin't have a bunch of great songs to make a "filler album"(20/20, anyone?). The day that they released 15Big Ones, they turned into a sad parody of themselves.

 In the 80's a deal with Virgin fell thru also.....

Mid-90s. Brian's 'people' decided it would be better for him to do a solo album. Thus instead of the V2 album, which would have included "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still A Mystery", we got... Imagination.

Was that when Sean O'Hagan was in the picture for a brief time?

 
  The breaking point was Oh Danny Boy!:
   
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGmNyPfmClw

Yeah... reading the Uncut article, about as long as it took Brian to eat a bowl of ice cream.  ;D

 :lol

OKAY IF EVERYONE would please look at the very random Danny Boy clip Outie posted seriously for a second, look at around 1:10 on. Can someone please tell me what concert this was filmed at and what Brian was performing standing up? I've wanted to know for ages.

That video was very sad....especially when Mike teared up....seriously. I may not care for Mike, but that part really got me.

Oh yeah, Michael is just a money-hungry jerkoff trading on Brian's fame and stature in rock 'n roll.  ::)

I think anyone who has the nerve to say that Michael doesn't care about Brian, wants nothing to do with Brian, whatever, after seeing this YouTube clip Outie linked to is quite clearly certifiable. I mean belonging in a straightjacket in a padded room certifiable.

I know when I saw that back in 1991 that was when I first questioned the Mike Love is the devil crap.

Phew! Thanks for clearing that up. I was seriously beginning to believe that Mike actually had a heart there for a minute ;D But in all seriousness that interview with Mike was also one of the first times when I questioned Mike love being evil and all that crap.

Seems to me the group ended after Adult/Child fell apart and Mike & Al effectively took over.  I'm not a fan of Adult/Child, but at least it was an attempt at creativity.  There was very little of that from 1978 forward.  In fact, IMO almost all of the decent songs starting with MIU were either recorded before '78 (My Diane, Good Timin') or were meant for Denny's solo album (Baby Blue, Love Surround Me).  Many of the rest have, again IMO, a putrid, almost smooth jazz feel to them, as if they were trying to eliminate anything remotely interesting.