The Smiley Smile Message Board

Is on Forever, that accordian part at 1:58 playin Brian's vocal part from the original...wasn't that Van Dyke Parks?  Is his accordian parts heard anywhere else on the album?

Same song, different part, actually right after your favorite part. It's when Carl comes in with his incredibly emotional singing.

Despite Brian, Carl, and Al not contributing any songs to Summer In Paradise, it's still one of Carl's best albums - vocally.

Yes, he´s also on "Lahina Aloha".

I thought the best part was...







...the lead-out groove on side 2.  ;)

That is, provided, you could get past the lead-out groove on side 1, which is the far worse side. :)

It sounded a bit better on vinyl as far as sterility goes but a bad performance is a bad performance.

Damn stole my joke!

I just bought this album two days ago, and I just finished sitting through it for the very first time.  Yes, the production is awful.  However, the songwriting on the new tunes is decent, and the arrangements of the cover songs isn't bad either.  I think this album might have been regarded a lot more highly if they had just used real instruments on it.

The song Summer In Paradise, however, quite possibly the worst lyrics ever written.  This even tops "Smart Girls".



Way back when well our master plan
Was havin' fun fun fun as America's band
Well we came out rockin' with Rhonda and Barbara Ann
Singin' of surf and sand
Now when we look back over all the fun we had
If our lifestyle's over now it sure is sad
We gotta get back to livin' without a care
Give me sunshine water and an ozone layer
Paradise is a state of mind
Where Mother Nature nurtures and man is kind
We need a change now wouldn't it be nice
If we could bring back summer
Get us back our summer
Summer in paradise
(Paradise)
Summer in paradise (paradise)
They chop down the forests
And in their haste leave a trail of destruction
And toxic waste is leavin' no one safe
In their home or their habitat
Can't let it go like that
Too much consumption and too much greed
When you consider all the people
That are livin' in need
Interdependence in this world is a natural fact
And we're all under attack
It's the eve of destruction or so they say
But mankind doesn't have to go that way
If we all get together we can make things right
And we can bring back summer
Get us back our summer
Summer in paradise
(Paradise)
Summer in paradise (paradise)
Summer in paradise (paradise)
Summer in paradise
Surfers recycle now don't you know
Like evryone from California to Kokomo
We're gonna keep on rockin'
And raisin' world consciousness
We gotta fix this mess
Looked in the future and what I saw
Was a world in harmony with natural law
There's trouble now but it will be alright if we can
Bring back summer
Get us back our summer
Summer in paradise
(Paradise)
Summer in paradise (paradise)
Summer in paradise (paradise)
Summer in paradise (paradise)
Summer in paradise
(Paradise)
Summer in paradise (paradise)
Summer in paradise
(Paradise)
Summer in paradise (paradise)
Summer in paradise
(Paradise)
Summer in paradise (paradise)
Summer in paradise

I'll second the thought on Carl's part on Forever.  But I've always been partial to Carl's part on Hot Fun In The Summertime too.  Mike's bow-bow-bow-diddip is cool too.

Despite the title track's admittedly cheesy lyrics, I still love the song.

Dr. Tim took the words out of my mouth too.

It's not just the production that bothers me   but the engineering. My god, everything sounds so *plastic*.

I love Strange Things Happen, though, esp. the guitar sound for the solo.

What is the best part of Summer In Paradise??

You don't have to listen to it!!!

Sheriff, you say that about almost every album, can't we just say that Carl was always at his best? :P

I like Carl's voice best from 66-73. 1980 was pretty damn good though live.

I know...I miss him, though :(...

MBE, while I really enjoy Carl's work from 1966-73 (it's hard to believe how FEW lead vocals he had before that time), I feel that he actually matured as a vocalist. I hear an increased power of his voice; in addition to the ballads he was able to really belt out the rockers, too. Due to some of the shaky material on the later albums, I feel he carried L.A. (Light Album), Keepin' The Summer Alive, and The Beach Boys (1985). It's almost like the group knew it too, and said, "hey, take the ball and run with it." Just think what those later albums would've sounded like without Carl....

EDIT: I also wanted to mention Carl's solo albums around that period. Yeah, the material wasn't too great on those either, but, despite that, his vocal work on those albums is tremendous. That must've been frustrating for Carl, because those solo albums did not do his talent justice, although I kinda liked Youngblood.

Same here Sheriff, same here... :-\

No, can't be, that would be Summer Of Love

If you're a girl appreciates her recreation, Why don't you let me take you on a "Love" vacation

 :ahh

Best part: the whole of "Lahaina Aloha"

Oh, yes, love that song; my favorite on the album, actually. Mike and Carl had developed a nice little give and take (a la "Kokomo"), much like Mike and Brian did on the early hits. 

 :o  Mike wrote those lyrics I guess?  UGH.  It's like a parody song, to illustrate how lame they became in later years.  Stuff like this makes it embarrassing to be a fan.

I don't care for some of the lyrics either, but I think "Summer In Paradise" is a decent song. It reminds me of "Keepin' The Summer Alive", which ironically, or maybe not ironically, many fans seem to like.

I'd also say Lahaina Aloha.  I don't despise the album, even though songs like Summer of Love and the new version of Surfin' are incredibly poor.  Most of the other have redeeming qualities somewhere.

I think the album as whole is better than it's frequently described as, even though it's not great.

Lahaina Aloha would be a great addition to one of the next summer-hits-compilations. Great tune.

Summer in Paradise is nowhere near as bad as its reputation. I stand by the 3/5 I gave it in the review section on the board. It ranks higher than MIU and KTSA on my personal list, with KTSA the absolute nadir.

I agree that it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.  At one point, for the first few years of my fanhood, it ranked in my top ten BB or BB related albums.  It's still probably in the top 15 or 20.  I think that the worst BB album as a group was 15 Big Ones.  The worst solo project was Mike & Dean's "Rock & Roll City".

SJS I do hear what you are saying about his voice getting more powerful, I just miss that tinge of airiness I hear early on. I think I have trouble getting into some of the material he did after from 1976 on purely from a musical standpoint. I'm not suggesting  that he didn't do some good vocals even on SIP,  but there is little I like as a complete song or record.  Carl could still sing pretty well when he died but I think that once he hit 40 I hear him getting more husky. No doubt his singing added some class to the Beach Boys ultimately disappointing later years.

Not surprsing coming from someone who has 1980's Mike Love as his avatar.

But please, try and defend "Summer  of Love"!  Peter Carlin's  descripton of the song in Catch a Wave is frighteningly accurate.

Summer Of Love never fails to bring a smile to my face just because it's so laughingly cheesy!

You know how fans think Hey Little Tomboy sounds disturbing and creepy? Take that and multpily it by 1000 and you have how Summer of Love makes me feel.  At least Tomboy sounds like it's trying to be tongue-in-cheek. Summer of Love sounds completely and utterly sincere, if you can call it that.

Hey, Summer of Love could have been even worse, that is, if that so-called duet with Bart Simpson ever came to fruition.

And besides, what's with the first comment? Who are you, Bill O'Reilly? Opinions that don't match yours are wrong? Or are you just a troll with too much to say? :)

We had a fairly long thread about "salvaging" Summer In Paradide a while back, I believe....Anyway,  this thread prompted me to play Summer In Paradise and give it a good going over. I'm prepared for the shots, go ahead, but I didn't find as much "bad" as is usually associated with the album. I suppose this post could go in the album review section, but here goes:

Very Good Songs:
1. Lahaina Aloha
2. Strange Things Happen

Good Songs:
3. Still Surfin'
4. Slow Summer Dancin' (One Summer Night) - if the credit said BW you'd think differently
5. Hot Fun In The Summertime

Average Songs:
6. Island Fever
7. Under The Boardwalk
8. Forever - it's not that bad!
9. Summer In Paradise - this one isn't either, and it rocked in concert

Below Average Songs:
10. Surfin' - almost makes Average
11. Remember (Walking In The Sand)

Bad Song:
12. Summer Of Love - in my opinion, the worst Beach Boys' song ever recorded

Yes, the production is weak, and can override the quality of the songs. But, the songs themselves actually aren't "bad", and, as has been posted, some of the vocal performances are quite good.

For me, I can't listen to SIP all the way through, I just wanna hit skip on a lot...i guess i get bored.  The thing that bugs me about Forever most is that people of my generation (that grew up with Full House) just think of Jessie and the Rippers....ugh....Dennis Wilson is so much more than that!

add me as another defender of Slow Summer Dancin'...
pretty solid Bruce type contribution..

used it at my wedding  :-)    ;D

The silence at the end  ::)  :lol :lol

I mostly agree with your selection of good and very good songs on SIP, in fact I thought "Still Surfin'" was almost as good as "Lahaina Aloha" due to the touching faux-Brian falsetto, which serves as such a potent reminder of whose vocal contributions were so sorely missed on this album. To me it sounds like one final wholehearted attempt at trying to sound like themselves and that can really make you prick your ears considering the album's overall sterile and robotic sound.

Just too much effort to try to like this album.  Hot fun had potential as a cover but even that falls flat.

The album was just a flop.  So bad even the voice of Carl Wilson couldn't save it.   Why does mike love write those sappy looking back songs?  Summer in paradise, looking back with love, Brians back........he definitely has a pattern of these......and once again....how can this be the same guy who wrote lyrics for Warmth of the Sun?

Last good BB song released on an LP?   Somewhere near Japan.

Still Surfin' is the best on the album. Total Beach Boys soaked lyrics and sound. Have you ever listened to the song with high volume? I love Beach Boys songs that tell a story.

I think that is why: he had great, great success with a certain kind of thing and he--getting older (now long since "getting," and flat-out "gotten)--was trying to recapture it. He was writing backward looking songs by the late '60s! (Do it Again)

Brian, and plenty of others, do the same thing. Pop/rock is a young man's game. Doesn't mean the aging generation can't still do great things, but it's just not the same thing. It isn't likely to be continually fresh.

... yes ... but nobody does it as badly as Mike.

I was trying to be nice (for once)...

Yeah, I don't particularly care for some of those lyrics either; however, I do kinda like those songs you referenced.

But, it was just a couple of songs. What do you think if Mike would've chosen to do an ENTIRE "looking back" album? You know, one about growing up in Southern California, singing with his brothers, going home, complete with surfer girl references.... ::)

There is a HUGE difference between Brian doing it and Mike doing it. With Mike, you can smell the calculation from half a world away!  Brian and Scott doing it might look corny, but at the very least, it is heartfelt.  "Southern California" whips the holy hell out of most anything that's come from the BB world in the last 3 decades.  Just because you don't like TLOS doesn't mean it isn't any good.

Course, TLOS only has about four songs in that vein either.  And there might just be a slight bit more personal emotional content in looking back and writing "I had a dream, singing with my brothers, in harmony, supporting each other", than saying "Way back when well our master plan was havin' fun fun fun as America's band / Well we came out rockin' with Rhonda and Barbara Ann, singin' of surf and sand".

All these voices, all these memories, make me feel like... namechecking a whole bunch of old song titles?

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Only four songs that directly used "old" phrases, but I was referring to the CONCEPT OF THE ALBUM, and much of TLOS is a Looking Back With Wilson album. That was my point; I wasn't commenting on the quality of TLOS, just the concept. If Mike Love would've used that concept for an album, or would use it in the future, he would undoubtedly be criticized for it, no matter how good the songs were. Just trying to point out the hypocrisy. Mike "looking back" - no good. Brian "looking back" - you go guy!

As far as personal emotional content, I hear just as much emotion from Mike in "Summer In Paradise" as I do with Brian in "Southern California". And, again, that's not comparing the quality of each song or the overall performance, just the emotion. I hear Mike sounding very passionate about those subjects that he's singing about. And, of course, in real life, we know Mike values those things, whereas what Brian is feeling, well....

"All these voices, all these memories, make me feel like..." Who wrote those lyrics? They're very emotional.

AttwentyfiveIturnedoutthelightcauseIcouldn'thandletheglareinmytiredeyesbutnowI'mbackdrawingshadesofkindbluesky :smokin

Surfers recycle, now don't you know, like everyone from California to Kokomo.... Now that's real poetry! :police:

Sorry to complain here Sheriff, but it really annoys me when people say "well if Brian had written it people would say it was brilliant". Actually no, a bad song is a bad song to me. There are plenty of crap BW moments - I'm not going to list them here most people know what they are - and most people will agree with me that BW has written his fair share of crap. I see your point but to say a statement like that is ridiculous because it is implying that we think that ANYTHING with "Brian Wilson" on the writing credits is a work of genius but clearly it ain't and most here will acknowledge that.

P.S. I'm not disagreeing with you on Slow Summer Dancin' - just making a general point.

Yeah, I didn't word that like I should've; I hurried the post....

I was listening to "Slow Summer Dancin'", and it reminded me of a Brian Wilson production. It's an oldie, has a doo-wop kind of feel with Mike's deep bass vocal, and I'm thinking of "I'm So Young" or something like that. The whole arrangement is very "Brian" as if Brian could've written it, so I threw that comment in there.

Dare I ask if you've changed your opinion of Summer In Paradise? Do you think it's a bad album?

Nah, more of it's a Looking At LA With Wilson album.  Pretty much all present tense, from "Morning Beat" up to partway through "Oxygen".  It's just that the looking-back bits resonate with us oldsters more.

And there, once again, the difference is in what sort of looking back they do.  Most of the looking back in TLOS isn't basking in the hit singles, it's about having lost years (and family) to mental illness and depression.  These back-references aren't "Weren't we *cool*?"  so much as "Weren't we together?"  If Mike Love faced some of that in his lyrics, they might get a bit more respect.  Plus, of course, the difference between the look at the long-ago goddess in "Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl" and Surfer Joe in "Still Surfin'" is the difference between nostalgia and arrested development, right there...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

To be honest I'd have to give it another listen but yeah from memory it ain't as bad as most people make out, just the production makes it so hard to listen to. As you and others have said there are some great vocals from Carl and there are some decent moments and some of the songs aren't that bad. It's still their worst album imo - As I say I'd have to give it another listen before I deem whether or not it's still a bad album from my point of view. I'll post my opinion whenever I get around to giving it another listen ;)

While I like Summer in Paradise probably more than 95% of the people who've heard it, and same thing to Bruce's songs in general, arguably the best part of Slow Summer Dancin' (the chorus) is a doo-wop song by The Danleers from 1958 called One Summer Night. That's why the song is credited to Johnston/Webb.

It sounds like something Brian could have come up with for 15 Big Ones. It's a nice idea but BJ's corny vocal delivery ruins it for me.

I listened to SIP a bit when I first got it (sometime in the mid 90s on cassette) but haven't listened to it for years. A lot of it sounded like the sort of thing you would hear on cheesy teenage sitcoms like 'Saved by the bell' etc...

"Only four songs that directly used "old" phrases, but I was referring to the CONCEPT OF THE ALBUM, and much of TLOS is a Looking Back With Wilson album. That was my point; I wasn't commenting on the quality of TLOS, just the concept. If Mike Love would've used that concept for an album, or would use it in the future, he would undoubtedly be criticized for it, no matter how good the songs were. Just trying to point out the hypocrisy. Mike "looking back" - no good. Brian "looking back" - you go guy!

As far as personal emotional content, I hear just as much emotion from Mike in "Summer In Paradise" as I do with Brian in "Southern California". And, again, that's not comparing the quality of each song or the overall performance, just the emotion. I hear Mike sounding very passionate about those subjects that he's singing about. And, of course, in real life, we know Mike values those things, whereas what Brian is feeling, well...."


Nonsense.  It doesn't just matter what your intent is, it's how well you pull it off.  The lyrics to SIP are crap, plain and simple.  They're dumb, hand-handed and forced.  I have no doubt Mike's intentions were sincere, but it's just painful to listen to.  "Southern California" has real poetry to it.  It's a wonderful lyric.

Mike's doing a "looking back" album would be undercut somewhat by him having been doing the same thing for 30 years or so (to a much greater and more consistent degree than the other guys), but I submit that if he could pull off the concept with lyrics that didn't sound trite, pandering or calculated, people would be receptive to it.  Listen, I am no fan of Mike the post-1970 songwriter, but I've heard some of the songs on his new album and a couple of them are not bad.  If Mike just relaxes, writes what he cares about, and doesn't try to shoehorn a lot of old song titles and "commercial" ideas into a lyric, he does just fine.

It's ridiculous to just say everyone has it in for Mike and we're not giving his songs a fair hearing.  Put it this way:  if Mike had written "Southern California" and Brian had written "Summer In Paradise," do you honestly believe we'd all feel differently about the two songs?  Really?  Because I promise you, my reaction would be exactly the same.  One's a crap song and one isn't.

"At twenty five turned out the light" is so lame that even Brian tried to dissociate from this crap, suggesting that Bennet Boy was writing about himself. So, even Brian "quality-control" Wilson despises it, no need for the die-hards to defend it here.  :-D

Reminds me of the time a DJ said "I'll play you a song, and you'll like it - then I'll tell you who it's by, and you'll hate it".

So he did and I thought, "hmm, not bad, bit Beatlesque, yeah, I like it".

Then he said "that's the new single from New Kids On The Block", and instinctively (and to my shame) I went "oh, sh*t".

Yes, Adam, I really do. I think a great many people would feel differently. And there's no pro-Mike or anti-Brian bias behind my answer. But, there is usually, not all the time, but usually, an anti-Mike and pro-Brian bias found when comparing material.

Take "Kokomo" for example. Millions of music fans around the world liked that song, but the anti-Mike crowd hammered it into submission. I submit that if the writing or production credit would've included BW (sorry, mikeyj), or even if Brian simply participated in the song, "Kokomo" would've been received more positively. Fast forward to 1998, and Brian releases "South American". Brian Wilson fans are singing its praises, noting it as one of the highlights of the album, and even clammering for its release as a single. Well, "South American" has no more artistic or musical merit than "Kokomo", but, because of the participants, it was and is viewed differently. 

And, for me, that is the bottom line with the Summer In Paradise album. It never had a chance. The album was Mike Love-led, it was produced by Terry Melcher, and it had zero participation from Brian Wilson. So, right out of the gate, it was a loser, couldn't have any merit. Why even give it a good listen. Well, how many of the post-MIU albums really had significant input from Brian? The answer is none. Did Summer In Paradise get a good listen?

L.A. (Light Album) seems to get some good reviews and recognition in BB/BW land. Just for the heck of it, compare Side B of L.A. (Light Album) and Side B of Summer In Paradise (I split the CD in half). Which one is stronger?

7. Here Comes The Night
8. Baby Blue
9. Goin' South
10. Shortenin' Bread

or

7. Strange Things Happen
8. Remember Walking In The Sand
9. Lahaina Aloha
10. Under The Boardwalk
11. Summer In Paradise
12. Forever 

Yep, exactly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_NOpy8-rVg

I liked it until I heard it recently after  many years. Maurice Starr took a songwriting page from Mike Love, it seems.

OK, I hate to go all Andrew Doe here (not that that's a bad thing, just contentious, but this is just poppycock all 'round.  I realize this is your opinion and I've got mine, but I can't believe you think this is a convincing argument to anybody.

First of all, i would take those four songs on L.A. over SIP any day of the week.  "Baby Blue" is sublime, I've always enjoyed "Here Comes The Night," and the other two tracks, while not high points, both have their charms.  But moreover, the production is more textured, the instruments are real, the sound heterogeneous.  Moreover I could cherry-pick my least favorite tracks on L.A., or even M.I.U. or KTSA, and still prefer them over SIP, which is just bland, overprocessed, dull and dumb (and you didn't even pick the one track on the album I happen to like).  It's not dissed because Mike and Terry Melcher produced it.  it's dissed because it's craptastic, and it IS craptastic in a particularly Mike Love sort of way, so yeah, he gets a certain amount of blame for that.  It's not the same as Mike-bashing...this argument is the same as when conservatives used the term Bush Derangement Syndrome to describe people that disliked Bush, as if there couldn't be perfectly valid policy reasons to feel that way.

Second, poppycock to the "South American" argument.  Were Brian Wilson fans REALLY singing its praises?  Because my only recollection is that a lot of us found it painful.  Do I find it preferable to a similarly lame Mike Love song?  Yes -- but only barely...I just think it's a marginally better song than SIP, but I make no excuses for it.  It's pretty bad, and contrived.   I feel that way about a lot of Brian's solo work.  The difference is, I feel this way about the vast majority of Mike's work post about 1970.  If I and people like me were really biased pro-Brian, we would indeed be praising "South American" and other songs...but we're not.  It's just that on the balance, while they've both sunk pretty low, there are a lot more Brian highlights than Mike highlights in the last 30 years (particularly TLOS, which is pretty good).

I think the double standard you THINK you perceive is an aesthetic question.  If the concept of soul doesn't mean that much to you, then yeah, a song like "Kokomo" is as good as "Melt Away."  They're both pretty, ballad-like songs, and "Kokomo" connected with way more people.

As to the "at 25 I turn out the light" lyric, one duff line does not a bad lyric make and that line is from a completely different song!  Find me any line in SIP, the song or anything on SIP the album for that matter, as evocative and moving as any verse on "Southern California."  I mean, give me a break.  That's the whole argument right there.  If you can't hear the difference between that and a song like "Kokomo," then I don't know how to explain it to you.

Everyone has their own tastes but to me the people that champion SIP have always been the ones grading on a curve.  I can see where someone on a surface level would enjoy it, but it really has none of the soul, vibrancy, heart, or even sonic interest of the Beach Boys' classic work, nor is it as interesting in a cracked way as their later stuff.  It's just plastic, which is fine if you like plastic, but that's what it is:  plastic.  Not because Mike Love did it but because that is what it is and what it is designed to be.

Quick story:  back in 1991 or so I had a cassette copy of this album at work.  Our tech guy borrowed it to check out the tape machine.  When he gave it back he said, "I had a listened to that Beach Boys album you had."  I said, "yeah?"  And he just shook his head and made this grimace as if to say it was beyond bad.  And I knew exactly what he meant.  That's how someone outside the BBs world reacted viscerally to that album.

Alrighty, vent over.

See, there's your problem:  you think the praise for "Kokomo" has been hammered into submission.

But where I'm standing, "Kokomo" is well thought of -- a big hit single, catchy, well performed, not a major artistic statement but then it's not trying to be.  And "Southern California" is well thought of -- the emotive conclusion to the biggest hit album of new material from anywhere in the Beach Boys world in twenty years, critically praised and generally appreciated.  They each succeeded on their own terms.  "Summer In Paradise"... not so much.

So I don't think this bias is anywhere near as big or widespread as you think it is.  Now, "Kokomo" may be marked down on this board or a few others like it...  but it's always a trap to mistake a few loud fans on a message board for widespread opinion.  You're standing in the middle of an echo chamber and complaining you can't hear the music.


I think they're viewed about the same, actually, by those who view them both -- well-done pop that makes it look effortless.

Now, I do think "Kokomo" is treated as shorthand for Mike's shortcomings, but that's got little to do with opinions of the song itself, and more to do with it representing a high-water-mark for Mike's artistic ambitions.  If "South American" were the most ambitious song Brian released -- if it wasn't sitting on the same disk with "Cry" and "Lay Down Burden", or part of a solo career that includes "Midnight's Another Day" and "Rio Grande" -- it might attract flak too.


I was in college when it came out, and it didn't convince me to give it a good listen.  But "Kokomo" did.  And so did "South American", when I picked up "Imagination" on a whim after buying the Beach Boys box set.


Again, from where I'm standing, three out of the four songs on LA work perfectly well at what they're aiming to be.  If I'm feeling in touch with my inner Travolta?  "Here Comes The Night" is a perfectly groovy disco track.  In the mood for wistful yacht-rock?  "Goin' South" fits the bill.  Slam-you-against-the-wall artistic beauty?  Nothing finer than "Baby Blue".  Who knows, maybe "Shortenin' Bread" would work on its own terms too, if I could only figure out what those terms were...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

"Now, I do think "Kokomo" is treated as shorthand for Mike's shortcomings, but that's got little to do with opinions of the song itself, and more to do with it representing a high-water-mark for Mike's artistic ambitions."

Mike wrote very little of "Kokomo", actually (just the "Aruba/Jamaica..." riff & lyric) - the greater bulk of the song  (verse/chorus) was written in summer 1984 by Papa John & Scott Mackenzie. In Virginia Beach, no less.

And I have no shame in announcing that I like "South American".  ;D

Mike also claims to have written the line "by and by we'll defy a little bit of gravity" and to have moved the song from the past tense "that's where we used to go" to the present tense "that's where we wanna go".

Wow, that was a good call on Mike's part...the song would have had a totally different vibe to it if it was about a place where they used to go...I'm glad he changed it.  There are enough nostalgic songs about the past in the Beach Boys catalog.  I don't think that Kokomo would have been quite as big of a hit if it had been sung in past tense.  Plus, Carl singing the phrase "that's where we used to go" just doesn't have a good ring to it...kind of awkward.

When I read this, I immediately knew you were talking about the song "Tonight".

The Best Part of SIP?

Introduced me to the original 'Hot Fun' from Sly!....Sweeeet. :afro

The art of nostalgia is a tricky business, psychologically speaking.   It needs to be a bit poetic, and even somewhat abstract.

If you bring in some images that evoke warm feelings about the past that sneak up on the listener or observer...that let the listener fill in the dots and missing pieces from his own past, it is effective.  If you just start listing and commenting on things about the past, it is just a documentary.

Some of Mike's songs such as looking back with love and sip are more like documentaries.   A song like Do It Again, leaves some room for the listener to relate in his own way.

No knock on Mike, just an observation.  As someone says, when Mike just goes with his gut and heart he can come up with some nice lyrics.....and we all pretty much know which songs are good...

So do I.

I want to know what happened to this guy:

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears
And the way the sunlight plays upon her hair
I hear the sound of a gentle word
On the wind that lifts her perfume through the air

That verse is one of the best lyrics in the entire Beach Boys catalog by anyone, Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks included.  It's beautifully written and creates an indelible, slightly abstract image in the mind that complements Brian's music perfectly while remaining in that boy/girl genre.  Now it's become almost a contest to see how many times Mike can rhyme romance, glance, and chance.


Another way of looking back is done brilliantly (and very affectingly) by Flo & Eddie in their oustanding "Keep It Warm" from their excellent 1977 LP MOVING TARGETS where they basically ask what happened to the ideals we had in the 60's, and how did it all end up going so terribly wrong?  Short verses on both the Beach Boys and the Beatles are used to great effect here to illustrate the point.  But it ends on a positive note, softening the blow and expressing hope that the future will be better.

What a string of fantastic, well thought-out posts.

Yea verily yea.  I'm still hoping for the guy who turned "Don't Let Me Wonder" into "Please Let Me Wonder" to make a reappearance.  He knew a thing or two about dealing with complicated emotions.  Anyone know if there's anything in that vein on the still-forthcoming album?

Cheers,
Jon Blum

I think Mike is more than ready, willing, and able to write lyrics like that, and has been for about the last 25 years. Unfortunately, his old partner, the guy who supplied the music, doesn't want to work with him anymore.

Good God...quadruple poppycock.  He can't write a decent lyric because Brian won't write with him?  What, does Brian have to hold Mike's hand so the pen won't shake loose?  If Mike's a decent lyricist he can write what he wants, when he wants, regardless of who's with him.

The only way your post would make sense is if Brian was doing the bulk of the lyric writing and Mike was just tinkering around the margins.  Wait a minute...

Seriously, JS, you've lost your own argument with that post.

And as an afterthought to that, wasn't the outcome of the last time Brian and Mike wrote together "Baywatch Nights?"  Wasn't that supposedly so bad Carl walked out of the '96 sessions?  That part may be apocryphal but there's no outward evidence to suggest Brian is going to suddenly make Mike raise his game lyrically into deeper emotional and more poetic waters...

This is one of the most idiotic posts I've ever read. You should be embarrassed to actually write something like this.

Most people know, obviously you don't, that Brian and Mike were a songwriting team. Mike did an excellent job at taking Brian's ideas and concepts, and inserting some of his own, to write many of the great Beach Boys' songs, including the one's referenced above. Mike has written decent lyrics on his own, and with other Beach Boys, including the fine work he did with Dennis (Sound Of Free, Only With You, Pacific Ocean Blue). I even saw a documentary where Brian stated that something "special" happened when he and Mike wrote together.

It has never been claimed, including by Brian himself, that Brian wrote the bulk of the lyrics in his collaborations with Mike. Didn't you know that?

And who is JS? Adam your post is a ghost of a post. You oughta re-read them before you click on "post".

Now who is cherry-picking songs? Of all the great songs that Brian and Mike wrote, you highlighted that one? And you accused me of cherry-picking? Adam, do you know how to spell hypocrite?

How about "I don't know where but she sends me there."

That might be THE best lyric in a BB song. It's a great job by Mike of marrying his "boy/girl" senisibilities with Brian's "psychedelicate" music.

Sheriff John Stone, why won't you leave him alone? It's a fucking message board, for Christ's sakes. Relax.

Seriously, though, let's look at this with a cool head and a warm heart. Perhaps Adam was a bit harsh on your post. However, he was not claiming that Brian wrote the bulk of the songs' lyrics during his collaboration with Mike. I don't know where you got that idea.

Indeed, what he, and others here, were lamenting was the seeming loss of Mr. Love's ability to write "relatable" boy-girl lyrics with true artistic depth, such as the aforementioned "Good Vibrations" lyrics and "Warmth of the Sun," and many more continuing into the mid-70s and tapering off by the early 1980s. My estimates, of course; data from the WMO (World Musical Organization) is unavailable at the moment.

Is this due to Mike's change in focus? Does he simply not have the ability to write those types of songs anymore? If so, would he magically re-gain that ability if he wrote with Brian again?

What Adam seems to be saying is that Mike would not magically re-gain his ability to write beautiful lyrics, and "Baywatch Nights" is used as an example of this because it is the most recent song that Brian and Mike have written together, as far as we know. Of course, we have never heard this song, and Carl was known to eschew songs that would have been great additions to the Beach Boys canon, but something tells me that "Baywatch Nights," a spinoff of a vacuous syndicated daytime American television show, is not fertile subject matter for a beautiful ballad in the same way that the assasination of JFK inspired "The Warmth of the Sun."

You claim that Mike never lost that ability. You may be right. If Brian and Mike sit down tomorrow, maybe they will write a ballad as beautiful as "Southern California" or "Lay Down Burden." Personally, I haven't heard anything like that on Unleash the Love/Mike Love Not War, or any of the Beach Boys' 'recent' output. I'd like to see some more recent examples (1980-2009) of lyrics that Mr. Love has written that are in the vein of "Warmth of the Sun" and "Good Vibrations." Songs like "All I Wanna Do" from Sunflower, "Big Sur," and on the lower rung, "Sumahama." Songs that make a real emotional connection.

Of course, you could come back saying that "Still Surfin'" is a great example of a beautiful, artistic work by Mr. Love. It's all subjective. So let's have it, then. What are the lyrics he has written in recent years that you feel are artistically evocative? I would perhaps name "Cool Head, Warm Heart" as one, although it is somewhat trite..

Nope, not cherry-picking at all.  Your post was that if only ol' Brian would let Mike write with him again, Mike would assume his old flair.  They did just that very thing...in 1995.  "Baywatch Nights" was what resulted.  I wasn't picking the worst song...I was pointing out the actual real-world result of your hypothetical idea.  In other words, REPLYING SPECIFICALLY TO THE POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE...that's the opposite of cherry-picking.

And again on the topic of missing the point:  I didn't claim Brian wrote most of the lyrics.  I pointed out that that was the logical inference of YOUR post, because that's the only way what you wrote made sense.  Because otherwise, you're making the suggestion that the only reason Mike can't/won't write a good, heartfelt lyric is because Brian won't write with him.  You're actually claiming it's all Brian's fault that Mike doesn't write decent lyrics anymore, and in almost the same breath suggesting people who criticize Mike's output are biased towards Brian and against Mike.  Wow!

I'm fully aware that Brian and Mike were a songwriting team (as were Brian and Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Roger Christian...all of whom scored hits and wrote great lyrics with Brian, admittedly less frequently than did Cousin Mike, but I digress).  That doesn't prevent Mike from writing with other people, which he has, with less than spectacular results I would submit, but I think you're trying to say that it's the Brian-Mike TEAM that made all those great songs, and without being a part of that team, what Mike comes up with is less than special.  And since Brian has done some of his best work (e.g. PET SOUNDS) largely WITHOUT Mike's input, you completely negate your own point.

JS is John Stone.  As in, Sheriff John Stone.  Your username. 

I mean, good grief, dude.  You're jumping all over me and I'm just responding on point, logically, to what YOU are saying and inferring.  I don't mind a good bash-up on a message board, and my feelin's ain't hurt, but from your responses it almost seems like I read your posts more carefully, and thought through their implications, than you did! Just sayin'.

I think where you're coming from is that you like the Brian-Mike collaborations best, and you like the Mike Love vibe.  That's great.  The idea that getting those guys back together is going to create the old magic, that Brian needs Mike to make great music, that people are biased against Mike unduly...those are all assertions you've made that may be true, it's just that all the objective evidence points in the opposite direction...including some of your own arguments!  That's my point.

SIP is a bomb (to me) lyrically, so was almost everything else since say 1977 or so. There are exceptions. I thought his work lyrically on the First Love tracks and even the more recent Unleash The Love weren't bad. At least he wasn't trying to be "Mr. Beach Boy".  I would say Goin On was pretty darn good. That's the song that made Mike stop his anger towards his cousin during the Goldmine interview reflect a moment and say how great Brian was. Frankly we don't know how good Brian and Mike would be together since 1980. After that they wrote 2-3 songs tops. It could bring out the worst or the best, I would like to see them try but I am not holding my breath.

Oh and for what it's worth, I've heard a few songs from Mike's solo album and I was favorably impressed by some of them.  I've said so before. 

It's a funny thing about "bias" -- I hear that word shouted loudest by people who themselves are rabid partisans.  Applying an objective yardstick to two people (or ideas or idealogies), and finding one scores higher than the other, is not bias.  It's actually the opposite of bias.  The point of objectivity isn't to have an equal outcome for both sides, it's to judge both fairly and equally.  A lot of people don't get that.

And you would be wrong - again. When it comes to trying to analyze my posts, you simply don't know what you're talking about. And you're insulting and condesending.

You think I like Brian-Mike collaborations best? You're wrong. My three favorite albums are SMiLE (lyricist Van Dyke Parks), Pet Sounds (Tony Asher), and Love You (practically a BW solo album).

You say I like the Mike Love vibe? No more than any other Beach Boys' vibe. Actually, I like Mike's vibe LESS than Brian, Dennis, and Carl's. But, I'll defend Mike's vibe, because it was an integral part of the group. I don't agree with everything Mike did, but, when it comes to the a--hole meter, Mike's no higher than the rest.

Regardless of what you say, people are unduly biased against Mike Love. Maybe you aren't, but, if you read many of the posts on the various Beach Boys' message boards, and I have, you will see the bias.

If Brian and Mike collaborated again, maybe they would re-create the old magic. And, maybe they wouldn't. I think there's a chance, you don't think there's much of a chance. But, your opinion is no better than mine. And, you are wrong when you say that the objective evidence points in the opposite direction. You pointed to one song (yes, it was their "latest"), but it was an attempt at a song for a TV show! That's a lot different than sitting down and working on a new album project.

Does Mike depend on Brian to some extent for him (Mike) to come up with good lyrics? Of course he does. I NEVER DENIED THAT. That's what I was getting at when I responded to the question why Mike doesn't write lyrics like "Good Vibrations" or "Please Let Me Wonder". Yeah, there's a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being effective when it's paired with genius songwriting. There's also a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being less effective when paired with less than genius songwriting, such as the songs you choose to point out, which are substantially less (in number) than the great ones.

And, that will be my final point - for now! :-D The overwhelming number of B.Wilson/M. Love collaborations are great. I personally don't think they ever had a bad album, from the surf & turf albums, to Wild Honey, to the couple of Sunflower tracks, to even MIU. And I will base my opinions/hopes/predictions for the future on that track record. You can point out the few "clunkers" to make your point. But, that doesn't make you right, and it doesn't make me wrong.   

Thanks for calling my three-word-post well thought out Adam ;D

There was an interview on Youtube from 2006 where Mike mentioned that Brian gave him a CD of a new melody wanting Love to contribute lyrics, but Mike said he didn't want to work that way. I'm 100% certain of this, it's just a damn shame it's not on Youtube anymore!

I'm WAY in the minority about this, but with the one exception of "Rock and Roll to the Resque" I haven't personally found one full set of lyrics from Mike that don't have one cringe-worthy moment since his stuff on 15 Big Ones (possible exception of the bridge on "Let Us Go on this Way," but that is only a bridge)...it's just my opinion and I just wanted to state that. And you throw stones, but personally I found the "blossom world" line cringe-worthy in "Good Vibrations," it's an absolutely fantastic track with the exception of that one line. I'll get blasted for saying that most likely---but VDP and Tony Asher could write convincing psychedelic lyrics...Mike couldn't.

AND don't forget this is coming from the man that cried after hearing the second side of the "Today" album minus "Bull Session" when I was 16. I like Mike Love just not some of his lyrics.

And with that...I'm going to sleep...GOODNIGHT EVERYBODY!

I'd be happy if he put lyrics like that over "Big Sur".  He could clearly manage something good on his own, or with another composer, if he wants to try an emotionally sensitive ballad.

But it didn't seem like a priority for Mike when given an opportunity to write with the modern Brian -- again, viz "Baywatch Nights"...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Sleep tight petal ... enjoy the blossom world that sleep duth bring ............

Er... maybe I'm missing something here, but do you know who Adam is ?

To simplify this "tinkle tinkle" contest: Mike and Brian have written good songs together; they've also written bad songs as well.  Mike Love is not a masterful lyricist by any  means, but can sometimes rise to the occasion with songs like "Warmth of the Sun".  Of course, he's also rhymed "vibrations" with "assassinations"...

Well, let's see here:

You say I'm insulting and condescending but I think the strongest word I used was "poppycock."  You've used "idiotic" and "hypocrite," my friend.  As I said, I don't mind a little internet slug-fest...no bones broken, but you've been much nastier in this exchange than I have, so you don't have much basis to say I've been unduly rude to you.

"You think I like Brian-Mike collaborations best? You're wrong."

Fine!  I was just trying to find to find a nice way to summarize what seemed to be your position in a way that wasn't "insulting", not put words in your mouth.  If you say so, I believe you.

"You say I like the Mike Love vibe? "

Again, I wasn't "saying" anything, just going by what you've posted.  So again, if I misunderstood you, fine.

"Regardless of what you say, people are unduly biased against Mike Love."

I don't think I said that.  I said that YOU were making that assertion without a valid argument to back it up, and I took apart your argument (e.g. "South American" vs. SIP and LA vs. SIP).  Now you've done the same thing once again.  Saying so and believing it doesn't make it objectively true.

"Maybe you aren't, but, if you read many of the posts on the various Beach Boys' message boards, and I have, you will see the bias. "

I refer you, if you haven't seen it, to my post on the topic of bias.  It's a word that gets tossed around a lot when the facts aren't on one's side...(I'm not specifically referring to you here, but the word "bias" is usually the mark of someone with a losing argument)  Maybe all the Love-haters have valid reasons, like, they honestly think his songs and/or his demeanor sucks.  If you start out evaluating everyone equally, and decide one person is bigger on the "a--hole meter" than everybody else, that is not bias.  They could be WRONG (we don't know these people, after all), but it doesn't necessarily mean bias.

<<I think there's a chance, you don't think there's much of a chance. But, your opinion is no better than mine. >>

Correct.  Which is why I keep trying to make a distinction between belief and evidence.

<<And, you are wrong when you say that the objective evidence points in the opposite direction. You pointed to one song (yes, it was their "latest"), but it was an attempt at a song for a TV show! That's a lot different than sitting down and working on a new album project.>>

I pointed to the one song that referenced your specific argument.  Your point about it being a song for a TV show is totally valid, and I agree with you up to a point, though I believe it was later rewritten for the BBs as "Dancing the Night Away" and didn't really raise the game much.  But anyhow...that point is taken.  However, it's still evidence, and to back that up, we have all the Wilson-Love songs on KTSA and MIU to consider.  A few decent lyrics ("Goin' On") but a lot more than wasn't all that great and I'm not sure there was any real magic there.  Perhaps that's a matter of opinion.

Point being:  you're right that no one can possibly know if the magic would be there if a sustained Wilson-Love collaboration would be there.  But I am right to assert that the evidence points the other way, in that the available Wilson-Love collaborations in the last 30 years or so have been, by and large, nothing special and not better than the work Wilson has done on his own (or Love for that matter), including "Baywatch Nights."  This contradicts your argument.  This does not prove anything...but evidence is not the same as proof.  Ergo, not wrong.

<<Yeah, there's a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being effective when it's paired with genius songwriting. There's also a direct connection to Mike's lyrics being less effective when paired with less than genius songwriting, such as the songs you choose to point out, which are substantially less (in number) than the great ones.>>

OK....but...sheesh.  OK, so then why is it a cheap shot (or biased, as you say) to point out that Mike's lyrics for the last 30 years, by and large, have been lame?  It may be that Mike needs Brian to do something really great, but if so, how does that support an argument that there's a pervasive anti-Mike bias?  Maybe he's just not a very good lyricist of late, period.  And given that, I don't see the argument that he and Brian need to get back together.  If Brian doesn't want to do it, and there are other lyricists he enjoys working with with good batting averages, I don't see why he should.  The only reason as far as I can see would be to make Mike happy.  Which is fine as far as it goes, but I don't think any of them owe any of the others anything at this point.  If they WANT to, fine.  None of our business either way, really.

"The overwhelming number of B.Wilson/M. Love collaborations are great. I personally don't think they ever had a bad album, from the surf & turf albums, to Wild Honey, to the couple of Sunflower tracks, to even MIU. And I will base my opinions/hopes/predictions for the future on that track record. You can point out the few "clunkers" to make your point. But, that doesn't make you right, and it doesn't make me wrong. "

Well, great.  But we're talking about Mike and what he specifically brings to the party.  I think most of the Brian Wilson compositions, up to around MIU, are good to great, including the ones Mike was involved with and the ones he wasn't.  I think -- as do many others -- that most of the lyrics Mike has been involved with post-HOLLAND have been mediocre to poor, with a few exceptions.  On that basis, I think anyone who wants to take issue with Mike's lyrical ability has perfect, logical grounds to do so.

In other words, not biased.  A valid opinion based on both aesthetic opinion AND objective fact, which you are free to agree or disagree with.  But bias?  Again:  a large number of people reaching a conclusion different to your own does not bias make.

And again, I like a few of Mike's new songs.  There are some that sound genuine, heartfelt and unforced.  I was pleasantly surprised.  If I were truly biased, I would have sh*t all over them.

LMFAO

From memory, Mike has said he thinks 'Til I Die' was the last great BW song.

What does anyone think the last great ML lyric was?

I thought it was Heroes And Villains that Mike said was the last great Brian song/production and it was Bruce who said Til I Die? Perhaps Mike has said that as well though? Not sure.

If we're talking about GREAT lyrics: "Big Sur".

Mike didn't write that song.

Pacific Ocean Blues wasn't bad either.

Sorry, but what does any of this "discussion" have to do with SIP???

Absolutely nothing at all!! :lol :lol

Indeed, that was a good one, one of the best in teh album. Maybe Mike needs to write lyrics by phone again.

I'm fond of "Rock 'n' Roll To The Rescue," myself.

Adam, I too like Rock and Roll to the Rescue.    I just wish Brian could have been in better vocal form at the time.  That particular variety of his vocal style, of the different voices he has presented over the years, is least pleasant of all, from his sweeet falsetto to his gruff voice circa 15 BO and Love You, to his current singing voice.  It sounds like the Paley era voice....which I didn't care for.    I have often wished this song could have or will be rerecorded.  But we would have to leave the Carl Wilson section alone!

I heard them perform this live once....Brian absent...and it sounded fantastic.  I still remember Carl's voice ringing out over the stadium...go cat go!

I agree.  As the boys trade off vocals, Brian's stick out like a sore thumb on this song.  I also wish they had had some sort of instrumental intro to the song. It kind of starts too abruptly for my taste.  But I still love the song.

Adamghost argues most eloquently...I'd like to plagiarise some of his thoughts on Mike Love and apply them to others on other boards....

SIP....I'm glad I heard it....but it's terrible. I definitely would never play it for anyone. By the way, serious rock fans who don't get or like the Beach Boys--it's because of albums like that and that whole image that I guess must have really taken off in the eighties.

But I don't think it should be buried. It's all part of the crazy f***ed up history of the Beach Boys...From Surfin' Safari, to PetSounds to Sunflower, to 15 Big Ones, to fragmentation to SIP...man they are one weird band. Can you think of another band that has so much sh*t and so much brilliance?

R and R To The Rescue should have been an Al/Carl show on lead. Not saying it would be a hit, but would have sounded better.

Really?  I love Brian's voice on RNRTTR...

RRTTR has so much going for it.  Least of all Brian's vocal.

But, to each his own.

Ah, you're right.  He might as well have.   :afro

Six pages on and no one noticed the fact that the thread title is a contradictio in terminis?

    Love Vacation!
   
    http://new.music.yahoo.com/videos/--2160214
 

Notice any shots of Brian in this. See how unimpressed he is? I got a bad vibe from that everytime I see this video. He even looks kinda angrily at Mike at 2:45. :-O Brian was probably only there for contractual reasons.

I love this song. I even have the 12" single, as well as the picture sleeve 45. I was surprised it didn't do as well in the charts.

It has everything. Bad direction, continuity errors, fake breasts, about six elderly men doing some ham acting in the midst of girls that, given their uniform red clothing, are from North-Korea, and David Hasselhoff. Top that.

For a long, long time, contractual reasons was the only reason Brian was there.

And, Brian wasn't angry with Mike; he was upset because they couldn't perform "Water Builds Up" or "Smart Girls", and, he was roasting in the LEATHER jacket he wore to the beach! :police:

I believe that is the single most offensive, embarrasing thing the Beach Boys ever did. Yes there are some honorable mention ones, you're absolutely right, everything is BAD!

The music videos for Summer of Love, Hot Fun in the Summertime, and Crocodile Rock were all far worse.

oh geegs, that Crocodile Rock video is the worst

Sort of like debating which puddle of urine smells the worst, though. Doesn't really matter much who wins (or loses).

hey I loved Crocodile Rock. It shows the guys having fun. Or at least trying to fake it. It beats them standing so stiff at the microphones lip-synching to their hits.

  Crok Rock's Vocal Are Sublime!
  Just Listen,Listen,Listen:
 
  http://new.music.yahoo.com/videos/--2168037

I meant anything connected to Summer of Love as being the worst.  I like the vocals on Crocodile Rock

I'm sure Adrian Baker sang on Crocodile Rock. Sounds like him anyway - and if so it's a link to SIP.

If you use that logic, almost anything we talk about on this board is a link to Summer in Paradise.

It was more a reference to the sound of Adrian's voice on CR and such as Still Surfin'.

One should judge artists by their worst work. That is my strong belief.

Yeah I agree... so in conclusion The Beach Boys are the worst band ever. ;)

 :lol :lol :lol

Shall we play Six Degrees of SIP?  That the new name for this board?

At least it's not Six Degrees of Kokomo.  In one or two jumps you'd have the entire roster of AF of M Local 4 in there.
(I'm so proud of that joke I'll go post it in the Kokomo thread)

 Maybe it's Matt Jardine?